Overheard at Work

[Chris22]

I don't support the blatant oversimplification that ALL speed limits are set too low because of revenue, but

Correct, let me amend my earlier statement to apply to 1) interstates and 2) 2-lane highways.  Your average residential or suburban/urban street is likely set pretty close to 85th percentile and traffic'd accordingly.   

[shelivesthedream]

Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit. To break the clearly signposted law and then complain about the well-known sanction being applied is just plain stupid.

[Chris22]

Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit. To break the clearly signposted law and then complain about the well-known sanction being applied is just plain stupid.

Is it?  I'd argue blind adherence to laws as if they were sacrosanct is more stupid (and we rarely have speed cameras in the US). 

Of course, disagreement about the supremeness of laws is likely why I'm on this side of the pond and you're on that one ;)

[MgoSam]

Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit.

I try to do so, and I've found that it really doesn't cost you all that much additional time. In addition to avoiding the po-po, it lowers your gasoline consumption, increases road safety, and also makes the drive a little more enjoyable. Rather than trying to get to my destination a minute or so sooner, I'll let my car go on cruise control.

[zephyr911]

Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit. To break the clearly signposted law and then complain about the well-known sanction being applied is just plain stupid.

Way to miss the entire @#$%^&* point about good governance and the differing rationales for achieving it.

[Chris22]

Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit.

I try to do so, and I've found that it really doesn't cost you all that much additional time. In addition to avoiding the po-po, it lowers your gasoline consumption, increases road safety, and also makes the drive a little more enjoyable. Rather than trying to get to my destination a minute or so sooner, I'll let my car go on cruise control.

I find it physically uncomfortable to drive the speed limit on most Chicago-area highways.  On roads like I-90, it's downright dangerous to drive the limit of 55 or the current construction limit of 45, as the prevailing speed is about 70-75 (or, granted, 10 in rush hour).

[midweststache]

Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit.

I try to do so, and I've found that it really doesn't cost you all that much additional time. In addition to avoiding the po-po, it lowers your gasoline consumption, increases road safety, and also makes the drive a little more enjoyable. Rather than trying to get to my destination a minute or so sooner, I'll let my car go on cruise control.

I find it physically uncomfortable to drive the speed limit on most Chicago-area highways.  On roads like I-90, it's downright dangerous to drive the limit of 55 or the current construction limit of 45, as the prevailing speed is about 70-75 (or, granted, 10 in rush hour).

Same for LSD, where the speed limit of 40mph, particularly on the north end, is like a minimum. I try to stick around 48, and I'm routinely passed--like, very quickly passed--by other drivers and taxis.

[frances]

We have AmeriCorps members at the nonprofit I work at, which is basically a domestic Peace Corps program that pays a stipend of $11k for a year of service. I've been working more closely with the AmeriCorps recently and apparently one of them, who I would guess is in her 50s, eats out for lunch every day and has a 2 hour round-trip commute. She also has whimsical manicures every week (complete with large jewels glued on her nails- like how do you even live your life with nails like that?), dramatic hair changes monthly and is rumored to be in the hole 100k for her PhD. And again, she's making $11k this year, though she teaches some online community college classes and sell Mary Kay on the side. So let's call it $25k gross max....it's just insane.

[dragoncar]

Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit.

I try to do so, and I've found that it really doesn't cost you all that much additional time. In addition to avoiding the po-po, it lowers your gasoline consumption, increases road safety, and also makes the drive a little more enjoyable. Rather than trying to get to my destination a minute or so sooner, I'll let my car go on cruise control.

I find it physically uncomfortable to drive the speed limit on most Chicago-area highways.  On roads like I-90, it's downright dangerous to drive the limit of 55 or the current construction limit of 45, as the prevailing speed is about 70-75 (or, granted, 10 in rush hour).

Same for LSD, where the speed limit of 40mph, particularly on the north end, is like a minimum. I try to stick around 48, and I'm routinely passed--like, very quickly passed--by other drivers and taxis.

I try to limit myself to 10 MPH when I'm on LSD, although I probably shouldn't be driving at all

[cerat0n1a]

Of course, disagreement about the supremeness of laws is likely why I'm on this side of the pond and you're on that one ;)

One thing many British people find amusing about America is that you for you it's illegal to just cross the road wherever you feel like :-) I think it's also fair to say that in the UK our speed limits are generally set sensibly and enforced sensibly and you will only get fined if you were genuinely driving some way over the limit and the police can prove it - and even then you would normally need to be doing something potentially dangerous or to have ignored very visible/obvious signs that police or speed cameras were active.

But, as a regular visitor to the US, I agree with some of the comments here. There clearly are some places where speed limits are inappropriately low and/or are used by small town police to extract revenue from non-locals as they know that few people will turn up in court to contest the fine.

Anyway, how about a $100 000+ speeding ticket?

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/finland-home-of-the-103000-speeding-ticket/387484/

[maco]

(and we rarely have speed cameras in the US). 

Visit the DC area. I know one road where there was a speed camera, but people learned to slow down right in front of it. So they added another one 50ft earlier. I think there's a 3rd on on that stretch of road, too, and it's only a half mile or so long.

[MoonShadow]

Of course, disagreement about the supremeness of laws is likely why I'm on this side of the pond and you're on that one ;)

One thing many British people find amusing about America is that you for you it's illegal to just cross the road wherever you feel like :-)

That's not true everywhere.  It's not even a named crime in my state.  All it says that a pedestrian shall not leave the curb to cross the street where that would create a hazard.  I'm sure some cities have citations against it.

[LeRainDrop]

Of course, disagreement about the supremeness of laws is likely why I'm on this side of the pond and you're on that one ;)

One thing many British people find amusing about America is that you for you it's illegal to just cross the road wherever you feel like :-)

That's not true everywhere.  It's not even a named crime in my state.  All it says that a pedestrian shall not leave the curb to cross the street where that would create a hazard.  I'm sure some cities have citations against it.

MoonShadow, if you're still in Kentucky, it's time to check your pedestrian laws again.  There are several other restrictions besides that one provision.  http://www.lrc.ky.gov/Statutes/statute.aspx?id=6417  In any event, saying an action is "illegal" is not the same thing as a "crime."  I doubt jaywalking is a "crime" in many places, yet it certainly is "illegal" in several jurisdictions.  This is just like speeding a little bit -- it's illegal, but not a crime.

[aperture]

Had lunch with two co-workers today (co-worker maintenance is $10/month in my budget). Both co-workers were complaining because work is busy right now.  One just purchased a new Audi Q-something and the other said she needs to buy a new car, but bought a horse on impulse last month instead.  We were at a Thai restaurant and I mentioned that I planned to travel to Thailand for a couple months at some point.  The one with the new Audi looked at me, and said "Oh sure, and I would like to retire, but that ain't happening anytime soon".   I smiled and kept my mouth shut.  Maybe one day, I will have an opportunity to share some simple math, but this was not the day.

-Ap

[gooki]

Of course, disagreement about the supremeness of laws is likely why I'm on this side of the pond and you're on that one ;)

One thing many British people find amusing about America is that you for you it's illegal to just cross the road wherever you feel like :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AFn7MiJz_s

[nobodyspecial]

Of course, disagreement about the supremeness of laws is likely why I'm on this side of the pond and you're on that one ;)

One thing many British people find amusing about America is that you for you it's illegal to just cross the road wherever you feel like :-)

Although you are allowed to shoot pedestrians from your truck (in season)

[Hedge_87]

Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit.

I try to do so, and I've found that it really doesn't cost you all that much additional time. In addition to avoiding the po-po, it lowers your gasoline consumption, increases road safety, and also makes the drive a little more enjoyable. Rather than trying to get to my destination a minute or so sooner, I'll let my car go on cruise control.

I find it physically uncomfortable to drive the speed limit on most Chicago-area highways.  On roads like I-90, it's downright dangerous to drive the limit of 55 or the current construction limit of 45, as the prevailing speed is about 70-75 (or, granted, 10 in rush hour).

I agree that driving with the flow of traffic (on multi lane roads) if it's faster than posted speed limits is probably the best way of avoiding or causing a problem. I would also like to point out that construction zones are reduced speeds for a reason. There are HUMANS with life's and families waiting for them when they get of work. These people are tasked with maintaining the condition/safety of the road while allowing the minimum amount of interference with traffic and provide for their safety. I implore you to please respect construction zone speed limits and set a good example. I know it is a PITA to slow down a few mph for a couple of miles but if it allows a dad or mom to go home to their family at the end of the day isn't it worth it?

[myhotrs]

Hope pic shows up, first time posting a pic. Not work related but made me laugh. The teeny car in the shadow of the monster F350 is a Jeep Cherokee!!

[Taran Wanderer]

Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit. To break the clearly signposted law and then complain about the well-known sanction being applied is just plain stupid.

After driving 20 hours around Sweden, I feel uniquely qualified to complain about speed cameras. My God, it was awful. Where I live, the speed limit on a road is what it is.  For the whole road. You settle in, set your cruise control, and then drive.

In rural Sweden, the speed is constantly changing and always at least 10km/h lower than it would be in any US state besides Hawaii. What should be a 90km/h road is posted at 80, then intersection!  60km/h. Back to 80. Divided section, 90.  Four lanes, 100. Town, 50. Out of town, 80. Deer sign, 60.  Curvy, 50. Straight, 80. On and on and on. And every time the speed limit drops there is a speed camera. It's a miracle I never got a ticket.

[MoonShadow]

Of course, disagreement about the supremeness of laws is likely why I'm on this side of the pond and you're on that one ;)

One thing many British people find amusing about America is that you for you it's illegal to just cross the road wherever you feel like :-)

Although you are allowed to shoot pedestrians from your truck (in season)

Only if they are wearing the Union Jack in one of the original 13 colonies.  They are still a bit bitter about the 2 pence per pound tax on tea.

[cerat0n1a]

I would also like to point out that construction zones are reduced speeds for a reason. There are HUMANS with life's and families waiting for them when they get of work. These people are tasked with maintaining the condition/safety of the road while allowing the minimum amount of interference with traffic and provide for their safety. I implore you to please respect construction zone speed limits and set a good example. I know it is a PITA to slow down a few mph for a couple of miles but if it allows a dad or mom to go home to their family at the end of the day isn't it worth it?

One of the things they do here (particularly on long-running constructions on major roads) is to show pictures of kids & the workforce, holding up signs saying "thanks for slowing down and letting my parents come home from work alive." Seems to work quite well, although I suspect that people will ignore it after a year or two.

Co-worker (with 100+ mile commute) was talking about his upcoming skiing holiday in Switzerland before complaining at how much his teenagers were costing and how impossible it was going to be to retire at 65.

[Chris22]

Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit.

I try to do so, and I've found that it really doesn't cost you all that much additional time. In addition to avoiding the po-po, it lowers your gasoline consumption, increases road safety, and also makes the drive a little more enjoyable. Rather than trying to get to my destination a minute or so sooner, I'll let my car go on cruise control.

I find it physically uncomfortable to drive the speed limit on most Chicago-area highways.  On roads like I-90, it's downright dangerous to drive the limit of 55 or the current construction limit of 45, as the prevailing speed is about 70-75 (or, granted, 10 in rush hour).

I agree that driving with the flow of traffic (on multi lane roads) if it's faster than posted speed limits is probably the best way of avoiding or causing a problem. I would also like to point out that construction zones are reduced speeds for a reason. There are HUMANS with life's and families waiting for them when they get of work. These people are tasked with maintaining the condition/safety of the road while allowing the minimum amount of interference with traffic and provide for their safety. I implore you to please respect construction zone speed limits and set a good example. I know it is a PITA to slow down a few mph for a couple of miles but if it allows a dad or mom to go home to their family at the end of the day isn't it worth it?

In IL what they'll frequently do is set a "construction" zone for dozens of miles, putting barrels and signs out, but actually work on one 100 yard stretch of that zone.  I have no problem slowing down when there are actual workers present, but they are teaching everyone not to respect the construction zone speed limit when they set it up the way they do. 

[former player]

In IL what they'll frequently do is set a "construction" zone for dozens of miles, putting barrels and signs out, but actually work on one 100 yard stretch of that zone.  I have no problem slowing down when there are actual workers present, but they are teaching everyone not to respect the construction zone speed limit when they set it up the way they do.

Something else they do in the UK is put cameras with automatic number plate recognition at the start and end of the zone.  Tickets get sent out automatically to anyone whose average speed exceeds the limit, which is very often 50 mph.  Works a treat - you get two or three very neat lines of vehicles all travelling at 50 mph for the length of the construction.

[Hedge_87]

Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit.

I try to do so, and I've found that it really doesn't cost you all that much additional time. In addition to avoiding the po-po, it lowers your gasoline consumption, increases road safety, and also makes the drive a little more enjoyable. Rather than trying to get to my destination a minute or so sooner, I'll let my car go on cruise control.

I find it physically uncomfortable to drive the speed limit on most Chicago-area highways.  On roads like I-90, it's downright dangerous to drive the limit of 55 or the current construction limit of 45, as the prevailing speed is about 70-75 (or, granted, 10 in rush hour).

I agree that driving with the flow of traffic (on multi lane roads) if it's faster than posted speed limits is probably the best way of avoiding or causing a problem. I would also like to point out that construction zones are reduced speeds for a reason. There are HUMANS with life's and families waiting for them when they get of work. These people are tasked with maintaining the condition/safety of the road while allowing the minimum amount of interference with traffic and provide for their safety. I implore you to please respect construction zone speed limits and set a good example. I know it is a PITA to slow down a few mph for a couple of miles but if it allows a dad or mom to go home to their family at the end of the day isn't it worth it?

In IL what they'll frequently do is set a "construction" zone for dozens of miles, putting barrels and signs out, but actually work on one 100 yard stretch of that zone.  I have no problem slowing down when there are actual workers present, but they are teaching everyone not to respect the construction zone speed limit when they set it up the way they do.

You do have a valid point. It seems that they keep making cones bigger and putting more out thinking the problem is visibility. I agree the problem is more about people being desensitized to all the orange and flashing lights. I also think it doesn't matter how many cones and lights you set up if people don't pay attention while hurling them self down the road at deadly speeds. I can't believe what I see some people trying to do while behind the wheel.

[RWD]

I agree that driving with the flow of traffic (on multi lane roads) if it's faster than posted speed limits is probably the best way of avoiding or causing a problem. I would also like to point out that construction zones are reduced speeds for a reason. There are HUMANS with life's and families waiting for them when they get of work. These people are tasked with maintaining the condition/safety of the road while allowing the minimum amount of interference with traffic and provide for their safety. I implore you to please respect construction zone speed limits and set a good example. I know it is a PITA to slow down a few mph for a couple of miles but if it allows a dad or mom to go home to their family at the end of the day isn't it worth it?

Where there are actually construction workers I agree. But I've seen places where the speed limit drops from 75 or 70 mph down to 45 mph where there is no change to the road surface or shoulders, no construction workers present, and it goes on for 10+ miles. In these sorts of sections I still slow down (to maybe 10 over the limit) for fear of getting a ticket but pretty much everyone else keeps doing 70 mph. I've also seen stretches of road where they've clearly already finished (all the cones and stuff are gone too), but they left up the construction signage...

[Mermaid3011]

Overheard at work this morning:

colleague: I am going to get a coffee (fumbles with change in his pocket)
me: from the cafeteria? But why? coffee up here is free?
colleague: I drink that in the afternoon, but in the morning I want brewed Starbucks
me: then go one floor down, they have Keurig cups from Starbucks
colleagues: naw that's not the same
me: **shrugs** o.k. (thinks: really have to get some Starbucks stock)



Oh and then he handed me two coupons - one for a free coffee at the Presse Café down the street and one for $2 off a Latte at the same place.
Thanks!! (but why isn't he using them himself??)

By now my colleagues know that I am the coupon girl...  I told them to bring me any coupons they see and don't want to use themselves... Let's see how that'll work out :))

[ShoulderThingThatGoesUp]

Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit.

I try to do so, and I've found that it really doesn't cost you all that much additional time. In addition to avoiding the po-po, it lowers your gasoline consumption, increases road safety, and also makes the drive a little more enjoyable. Rather than trying to get to my destination a minute or so sooner, I'll let my car go on cruise control.

I find it physically uncomfortable to drive the speed limit on most Chicago-area highways.  On roads like I-90, it's downright dangerous to drive the limit of 55 or the current construction limit of 45, as the prevailing speed is about 70-75 (or, granted, 10 in rush hour).

I agree that driving with the flow of traffic (on multi lane roads) if it's faster than posted speed limits is probably the best way of avoiding or causing a problem. I would also like to point out that construction zones are reduced speeds for a reason. There are HUMANS with life's and families waiting for them when they get of work. These people are tasked with maintaining the condition/safety of the road while allowing the minimum amount of interference with traffic and provide for their safety. I implore you to please respect construction zone speed limits and set a good example. I know it is a PITA to slow down a few mph for a couple of miles but if it allows a dad or mom to go home to their family at the end of the day isn't it worth it?

In IL what they'll frequently do is set a "construction" zone for dozens of miles, putting barrels and signs out, but actually work on one 100 yard stretch of that zone.  I have no problem slowing down when there are actual workers present, but they are teaching everyone not to respect the construction zone speed limit when they set it up the way they do.

Pennsylvania seems to frequently block off lanes simply to store barrels and cones. There isn't even room for people to work if they wanted to.

[mlejw6]

Had lunch with two co-workers today (co-worker maintenance is $10/month in my budget). Both co-workers were complaining because work is busy right now.  One just purchased a new Audi Q-something and the other said she needs to buy a new car, but bought a horse on impulse last month instead.  We were at a Thai restaurant and I mentioned that I planned to travel to Thailand for a couple months at some point.  The one with the new Audi looked at me, and said "Oh sure, and I would like to retire, but that ain't happening anytime soon".   I smiled and kept my mouth shut.  Maybe one day, I will have an opportunity to share some simple math, but this was not the day.

Ooh, please tell me this is not a typo and your co-worker actually impulse bought a horse!

That would make my day

[LeRainDrop]

Had lunch with two co-workers today (co-worker maintenance is $10/month in my budget). Both co-workers were complaining because work is busy right now.  One just purchased a new Audi Q-something and the other said she needs to buy a new car, but bought a horse on impulse last month instead.  We were at a Thai restaurant and I mentioned that I planned to travel to Thailand for a couple months at some point.  The one with the new Audi looked at me, and said "Oh sure, and I would like to retire, but that ain't happening anytime soon".   I smiled and kept my mouth shut.  Maybe one day, I will have an opportunity to share some simple math, but this was not the day.

Ooh, please tell me this is not a typo and your co-worker actually impulse bought a horse!

That would make my day

What could be the alternative?  That she impulsively bought a house?  ;-)

[maco]

Gosh dang, I heard of this amazing way to make sure that goddamn socialist gubmint don't take none of your money with them revenue-producing speed cameras... Drive within the clearly advertised speed limit.

I try to do so, and I've found that it really doesn't cost you all that much additional time. In addition to avoiding the po-po, it lowers your gasoline consumption, increases road safety, and also makes the drive a little more enjoyable. Rather than trying to get to my destination a minute or so sooner, I'll let my car go on cruise control.

I find it physically uncomfortable to drive the speed limit on most Chicago-area highways.  On roads like I-90, it's downright dangerous to drive the limit of 55 or the current construction limit of 45, as the prevailing speed is about 70-75 (or, granted, 10 in rush hour).

I agree that driving with the flow of traffic (on multi lane roads) if it's faster than posted speed limits is probably the best way of avoiding or causing a problem. I would also like to point out that construction zones are reduced speeds for a reason. There are HUMANS with life's and families waiting for them when they get of work. These people are tasked with maintaining the condition/safety of the road while allowing the minimum amount of interference with traffic and provide for their safety. I implore you to please respect construction zone speed limits and set a good example. I know it is a PITA to slow down a few mph for a couple of miles but if it allows a dad or mom to go home to their family at the end of the day isn't it worth it?

In IL what they'll frequently do is set a "construction" zone for dozens of miles, putting barrels and signs out, but actually work on one 100 yard stretch of that zone.  I have no problem slowing down when there are actual workers present, but they are teaching everyone not to respect the construction zone speed limit when they set it up the way they do.

Pennsylvania seems to frequently block off lanes simply to store barrels and cones. There isn't even room for people to work if they wanted to.

In Maryland the speed cameras set to construction zone speeds in construction zones are only supposed to create valid tickets if the construction zone has workers. Then a judge ruled that the person operating the speed camera counted, so as long as they keep someone sitting in the SUV that has the camera 24/7, that's exactly the same as an active construction zone.

[Chris22]

Had lunch with two co-workers today (co-worker maintenance is $10/month in my budget). Both co-workers were complaining because work is busy right now.  One just purchased a new Audi Q-something and the other said she needs to buy a new car, but bought a horse on impulse last month instead.  We were at a Thai restaurant and I mentioned that I planned to travel to Thailand for a couple months at some point.  The one with the new Audi looked at me, and said "Oh sure, and I would like to retire, but that ain't happening anytime soon".   I smiled and kept my mouth shut.  Maybe one day, I will have an opportunity to share some simple math, but this was not the day.

Ooh, please tell me this is not a typo and your co-worker actually impulse bought a horse!

That would make my day

What could be the alternative?  That she impulsively bought a house?  ;-)

I don't think this is as uncommon as one might think.

Momma signs Sally up for riding lessons. Sally looks so cute on "Thunderhoof". Sally jumps off the horse at the end of lesson 3, and declares undying love for "Thunderhoof". At lesson 6 the riding school quietly mentions that a quarter share of "Thunderhoof" is only $xxx.xx and the share of board is so cheap compared to renting a horse and since Sally shows such amazing promise and will want to ride forever it only makes sense. And so Sally's Mom comes to own a horse.

Same thing works for a lot of other hobbies.

Horses are what car guys point to and say "yeah, cars are expensive, but at least I'm not into horses!"

[golden1]

Oooooh the horse thing reminds me of something I overheard at work years ago.

This guys was complaining about his teenage daughter's equestrian hobby.  Apparently, she got good at it and her coach recommended she buy a horse.  He was freaking out because the daughter wanted a horse that cost something like $25K, not even talking about the cost of feeding and housing it.  This guy was working as a technician and had no degree, so he wasn't making enough to support that type of hobby for his kid.  I didn't have kids but I remember thinking "Whatever happened to not putting your kids in hobbies you can't afford?" 

Now I have a teenage daughter and still feel the same way. 

[Chris22]

Oooooh the horse thing reminds me of something I overheard at work years ago.

This guys was complaining about his teenage daughter's equestrian hobby.  Apparently, she got good at it and her coach recommended she buy a horse.  He was freaking out because the daughter wanted a horse that cost something like $25K, not even talking about the cost of feeding and housing it.  This guy was working as a technician and had no degree, so he wasn't making enough to support that type of hobby for his kid.  I didn't have kids but I remember thinking "Whatever happened to not putting your kids in hobbies you can't afford?" 

Now I have a teenage daughter and still feel the same way.

Eh, horseback riding is like sailing, it can be really cheap, or hyper expensive.  My sister rode horses growing up, it was basically free (after buying various pieces of clothing/equipment) because she worked in the barn shoveling shit to offset the price of lessons.  One doesn't need to own a horse to be in the hobby.

[GuitarStv]

Speeding tickets are given out to reduce harm to others.

No, speeding tickets are largely given out to make money for local municipalities.  Statistically, pretty much everyone speeds, largely because limits are set too low on purpose to drive speeding ticket revenue.

[action]Bites tongue. Hard.[/action]



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpZRxo3EWAc

http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/speedmgt/ref_mats/fhwasa12004/

http://priceonomics.com/is-every-speed-limit-too-low/

You are quoting a blogger over federally sponsored FWHA research and NZ research. You should buy his book - "Everything is Bullshit", also check out his article on the invention of Pad Thai! There's a source worth quoting!

But he did get a few things right! 85th percentile speeds are set at the speed most drivers are already driving, reducing variability in the traffic stream and therefore reducing severity of collisions. Excellent work Alex Mayyasi - you researched that bit well!

FWIW, most 85th percentile speeds correspond nicely with the design speed of the roads they are on. In other words, drivers are pretty good at driving in a safe speed band for the road. And most police will allow some forgiveness in the speed band, aiming to hold the outliers' speeds down rather than ticket the masses.

The problem is, speed limits are not usually set at the 85 percentile limits, but at something lower.  So if you agree with the 85 percentile methodology, you agree with me.   

The BS statement about speed limits being set in order to increase revenues is laughable. But I'm sure that as you clip a bike as you fly by, you'll be safe, and its that SOB's problem you couldn't swerve fast enough, right? I mean its not like sightlines through curves or crests are calculated into the roadway design - and its not like the reaction time has anything to do with how fast you are driving.

You can win this argument, go home and pat yourself on the back. But be ready for 2 things. One - for your stash to be cleaned out in a legal settlement after you hit said cyclist, and two, for the guy who ploughs into you using your same logic that his speed is more important than your life.

You will not see any further replies from me on the topic. Quit reading blogs, and start reading science and engineering reports.

Here be strawmen.

The whole discussion about speed limit values is a red herring.  Regardless of what the speed limit is set at, exceeding it makes you more likely to do harm to others.  This is because when you drive faster you are more likely to get in an accident.  When you get in an accident you are more likely to kill someone due to the increased speed.  (http://www.rospa.com/road-safety/advice/drivers/speed/inappropriate/)

Speed limits cannot be set too low.  The worst that happens from low speed limits that are followed is safer conditions for everyone.  If people are breaking the limit for their own selfish gain, they should be punished for the risks they are causing everyone else.

My original point still stands.

[Chris22]

The whole discussion about speed limit values is a red herring.  Regardless of what the speed limit is set at, exceeding it makes you more likely to do harm to others.

Not true

This is because when you drive faster you are more likely to get in an accident.

Not true

When you get in an accident you are more likely to kill someone due to the increased speed.  (http://www.rospa.com/road-safety/advice/drivers/speed/inappropriate/)

True

Speed limits cannot be set too low.

Seriously?

The worst that happens from low speed limits that are followed is safer conditions for everyone.

No, you cause severe speed differential problems between unthinking idiots who blindly follow the law and intelligent people who can do their own risk assessment on what a safe speed to travel is.

If people are breaking the limit for their own selfish gain, they should be punished for the risks they are causing everyone else.

If and only if the limit is set intelligently in the first place.

My original point still stands.

In your own mind.

[zephyr911]

Let's make all the speed limits everywhere ZERO!

Speed limits cannot be set too low

Michigan’s state police have come out in favor of higher speed limits, saying speed limits that are too low put them in the position of ticketing responsible drivers.

Here's a comparative analysis of speed limits in BC, with an example of a possible excessively low limit where law enforcement spends lots of time collecting ticket revenue despite very little risky behavior. Also points out that Canada's relatively low speed limits don't stop it from having 2x the per-capita traffic deaths of autobahn-happy Germany.
- "if the speed limit is below the upper limit of the safe majority, the people who do the speed limit become hazards to themselves and others."
- low speed limits are proven to produce tension, especially WRT passing lanes, increasing risk

From Montana, a discussion of NO speed limits and low fatalities:
https://www.motorists.org/press/montana-no-speed-limit-safety-paradox/

Or, to sum up... sure, you can insist that in a vacuum, higher speed = higher risk, all you want... but we don't live in a vacuum. In the context of the real world, and typical human behavior, irrational limits (high OR low) both increase risk.

[Ashyukun]

Horses are what car guys point to and say "yeah, cars are expensive, but at least I'm not into horses!"

At which point the guy with the horse says, "It could be worse- I could own a boat..."

[mtn]

Horses are what car guys point to and say "yeah, cars are expensive, but at least I'm not into horses!"

At which point the guy with the horse says, "It could be worse- I could own a boat..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxecx4oRsEI

[mtn]

GuitarStv, you're right. But you're also wrong.

First of all, speed does not kill. If it did, no astronaut would make it out alive and landspeed records would not be in the 700 MPH's. It is the difference in speed that kills; moreover, it is the highest average difference in speed that kills.

There is greater aggregate danger created from someone going too slow. And speed limits don't really have any effect on the speed people drive, as referenced above.

[dycker1978]

I agree that driving with the flow of traffic (on multi lane roads) if it's faster than posted speed limits is probably the best way of avoiding or causing a problem. I would also like to point out that construction zones are reduced speeds for a reason. There are HUMANS with life's and families waiting for them when they get of work. These people are tasked with maintaining the condition/safety of the road while allowing the minimum amount of interference with traffic and provide for their safety. I implore you to please respect construction zone speed limits and set a good example. I know it is a PITA to slow down a few mph for a couple of miles but if it allows a dad or mom to go home to their family at the end of the day isn't it worth it?

Where there are actually construction workers I agree. But I've seen places where the speed limit drops from 75 or 70 mph down to 45 mph where there is no change to the road surface or shoulders, no construction workers present, and it goes on for 10+ miles. In these sorts of sections I still slow down (to maybe 10 over the limit) for fear of getting a ticket but pretty much everyone else keeps doing 70 mph. I've also seen stretches of road where they've clearly already finished (all the cones and stuff are gone too), but they left up the construction signage...

Here they have changed the law.  The company repair the road is required to move the signage as they make progress, and remove all signage when the work is complete, or the workers are not present, like at night, as long as it is safe to travel at the speed limit.

If the company does not follow the guide lines that are set up, they face fines.  Seeing as the fines are payable to the same group that pays the construction costs, it really seems to work.

[TravelJunkyQC]

Overheard a gem yesterday between two people at work:
(They were going to visit a client the next day)
CW1: Whose car should we take?
CW2: Doesn't matter to me, you?
CW1: Do you mind driving, my car is starting to have a lot of miles on it.
CW2: No problem, I'd rather drive, the more miles I add, the faster I get to change my car! (This is a new Mercedes *bought* in the last year - it is NOT a company car)

[GuitarStv]

First of all, speed does not kill. If it did, no astronaut would make it out alive and landspeed records would not be in the 700 MPH's. It is the difference in speed that kills; moreover, it is the highest average difference in speed that kills.

I didn't say that speed kills (although I wouldn't use astronaughts or people breaking land speed records as great examples of safe activities).  Driving at higher speed leads to more accidents, and the accidents are worse when they happen.

There is greater aggregate danger created from someone going too slow. And speed limits don't really have any effect on the speed people drive, as referenced above.

If a single person is going too slow, this can be a problem.  That shouldn't be the case though, everyone should be going the posted limit.  You're saying that because people commonly break the speed limits (due to poor enforcement, fines that are too low, and social acceptance of speeding) a few people going the limit can be a problem.  You have it backwards though.  The people breaking the speed limit are the problem, not the speed limit.

Better enforcement and more stringent penalties would make roads safer, rather than our current accommodation of people who have decided that the rules don't apply to them.

[mtn]

First of all, speed does not kill. If it did, no astronaut would make it out alive and landspeed records would not be in the 700 MPH's. It is the difference in speed that kills; moreover, it is the highest average difference in speed that kills.

I didn't say that speed kills (although I wouldn't use astronaughts or people breaking land speed records as great examples of safe activities).  Driving at higher speed leads to more accidents, and the accidents are worse when they happen.

There is greater aggregate danger created from someone going too slow. And speed limits don't really have any effect on the speed people drive, as referenced above.

If a single person is going too slow, this can be a problem.  That shouldn't be the case though, everyone should be going the posted limit.  You're saying that because people commonly break the speed limits (due to poor enforcement, fines that are too low, and social acceptance of speeding) a few people going the limit can be a problem.  You have it backwards though.  The people breaking the speed limit are the problem, not the speed limit.

Better enforcement and more stringent penalties would make roads safer, rather than our current accommodation of people who have decided that the rules don't apply to them.

Yes, they would. But it would make for a lot of unhappy people and the laws would get changed again.

The fact is that people drive at the speed they're comfortable driving at for the particular roadway. Speed limits have little effect on it. You can argue it until you're blue in the face, but you really can't change human behavior.

[zephyr911]

If a single person is going too slow, this can be a problem.  That shouldn't be the case though, everyone should be going the posted limit.  You're saying that because people commonly break the speed limits (due to poor enforcement, fines that are too low, and social acceptance of speeding) a few people going the limit can be a problem.  You have it backwards though.  The people breaking the speed limit are the problem, not the speed limit.

You can say it all day long, and it's true, that if everyone were to go the exact same speed, and if that speed were a safe and reasonable one dictated by law, we'd be safer.

It's never going to happen. This lovely hypothetical scenario can never serve as an excuse for policies that ignore well-founded research data in the real world.

Better enforcement and more stringent penalties would make roads safer, rather than our current accommodation of people who have decided that the rules don't apply to them.

Nope.

Under certain ideal circumstances, they would.

Generally, in real life, they don't, and there are other approaches that are proven to be more effective with actual human drivers. Do you, like your government, insist on ignoring "is" for the sake of "should"? You're far more rational on other topics, in my experience.

[dycker1978]

First of all, speed does not kill. If it did, no astronaut would make it out alive and landspeed records would not be in the 700 MPH's. It is the difference in speed that kills; moreover, it is the highest average difference in speed that kills.

I didn't say that speed kills (although I wouldn't use astronaughts or people breaking land speed records as great examples of safe activities).  Driving at higher speed leads to more accidents, and the accidents are worse when they happen.

There is greater aggregate danger created from someone going too slow. And speed limits don't really have any effect on the speed people drive, as referenced above.

If a single person is going too slow, this can be a problem.  That shouldn't be the case though, everyone should be going the posted limit.  You're saying that because people commonly break the speed limits (due to poor enforcement, fines that are too low, and social acceptance of speeding) a few people going the limit can be a problem.  You have it backwards though.  The people breaking the speed limit are the problem, not the speed limit.

Better enforcement and more stringent penalties would make roads safer, rather than our current accommodation of people who have decided that the rules don't apply to them.

You have built some what a straw man here.  You are correct that it is the speed differential that causes the issues, not the speed limit.  You state that it is the increased speed of the people not obeying the limit that causes this differential.  This is not true, here anyways, we routinely have people that travel much slower then the posted speed limit.  This causes the same differential but the people doing the speed limit are the ones driving quicker.  This is not enforceable with the current laws here.

This is typically caused by elderly on the freeway sections of our city.   

[horsepoor]

Oooooh the horse thing reminds me of something I overheard at work years ago.

This guys was complaining about his teenage daughter's equestrian hobby.  Apparently, she got good at it and her coach recommended she buy a horse.  He was freaking out because the daughter wanted a horse that cost something like $25K, not even talking about the cost of feeding and housing it.  This guy was working as a technician and had no degree, so he wasn't making enough to support that type of hobby for his kid.  I didn't have kids but I remember thinking "Whatever happened to not putting your kids in hobbies you can't afford?" 

Now I have a teenage daughter and still feel the same way.

Eh, horseback riding is like sailing, it can be really cheap, or hyper expensive.  My sister rode horses growing up, it was basically free (after buying various pieces of clothing/equipment) because she worked in the barn shoveling shit to offset the price of lessons.  One doesn't need to own a horse to be in the hobby.

Yeah.  I got pretty good, but that doesn't mean $25K horse and going to expensive shows.  It was more like learn to ride this unbroken $500 horse, then maybe you can sell it and buy a better horse.  My first horse was $350.  I trained it and then traded it for a nicer untrained horse that the owner couldn't handle.  Mostly learned on my own and with free 4-H group lessons and mucked lots of stalls and exercised horses with absentee owners to pay for equipment, caught rides with friends who had trailers, sewed my own show clothes etc.  If you're actually "good" people will take notice and let you ride THEIR $25K horse for free, or even pay you for the service. 

Buying the kid the $25K horse just takes away lots of opportunities to learn resourcefulness, work ethic, entrepreneurship and perseverance.

[BDWW]

Interesting results of Montana's speed limit experiment.

https://www.motorists.org/press/montana-no-speed-limit-safety-paradox/

[LennStar]

No, you cause severe speed differential problems between unthinking idiots who blindly follow the law and intelligent people who can do their own risk assessment on what a safe speed to travel is.

You say intelligent people are those who drive riskier (and faster is riskier compared to slower, always) to break the law and dont expect other people to adhere to the same law?

Our definition of intelligent seems to be quite different.

Canada's relatively low speed limits don't stop it from having 2x the per-capita traffic deaths of autobahn-happy Germany.

How many of them are under snowy conditions?
Also a lot auf Autobahn has speed limits.

And speed limits don't really have any effect on the speed people drive, as referenced above.

The solution to that is quite easy: If you get cought 3 times in one year going too fast you lose your drivers license.

You know, your only point for "slow drivers are more dangerous" is that the others are idiotically faster. I dont think that is reason to blame the slower drivers.

but you really can't change human behavior.

Yes, I see that every day when slave owners whip their slaves smoking big tobacco leaves on their horses while their wives are bustling at home with their 12 children.

This is not true, here anyways, we routinely have people that travel much slower then the posted speed limit.
This is typically caused by elderly on the freeway sections of our city.

Yes, that are the most experienced ones, the ones who - and I quote here - intelligent people who can do their own risk assessment on what a safe speed to travel is.


At this point you have basically lost the argument, because the "let every driver decide on his speed based on their assessment" points and derivatives cancel each other out and we are back to physics and biology were faster is more dangerous.

[Threshkin]

This is typically caused by elderly on the freeway sections of our city.

This is also a generalization that may be showing an ageist bias.  Around here the vehicles going below the speed limit usually are the big-rig trucks going 60-65 and the Prius (or similar) drivers going 50-55 in the 75mph zones. 

Another big risk in the freeways are the people talking or texting while driving.  They tend to weave in and out of their lane and/or slow down unexpectedly.  Then when you pass them they realize they are going slow and speed up again, starting the cycle all over again.

[greytbigdog]

What could be the alternative?  That she impulsively bought a house?  ;-)

My Dad did this.  They were living in BC, Mum wanted to be closer to her family in Quebec.  Dad had job offers in Ontario and Nova Scotia.  He went to Ontario for a conference and bought a house.  After signing all the paperwork, he called my mum to tell her they were moving.

Also heard a story from friends this weekend.  They have decided to run purchases more than $250 by each other first (both FIRE at 40) after their neighbour surprised his wife by buying a bigger house one block away from their current house.  "But you wanted a bigger place!"  New house was more than $650,000.