Author Topic: Overheard at Work  (Read 9622125 times)

Dollar Slice

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20300 on: June 19, 2018, 10:17:30 AM »
My co-worker asks if I have Amazon Prime, leading to a conversation about how he just signed up because he wanted an Amazon credit card.

"Now they give you 5% off at Whole Foods if you use an Amazon Prime credit card. We spend about $25,000 a year at Whole Foods, so it'll save us over $1,000."

It's just him and his wife. No kids. Spending over $2,000 a month on groceries.

But hey, good on him trying to save 5%. Baby steps.
Holy crap. Here I was getting cranky at my husband because we're over budget on groceries this month, but we're sitting at $357. How do you even spend that month on groceries?!

I know they're both vegan and only eat organic food, which is how they likely justify it to themselves. I won't pretend to know exactly how much that raises your grocery bill, but I am sure others with those dietary restrictions can weigh in that it's still outlandish

Oof. My first thought was that they were eating high-end steaks a couple of times a week (Whole Foods sells some that are $20+ a pound) but if they are vegan, I bet they are spending a ton on meat and dairy substitutes - there are some really expensive brands. Do they drink? Throw in a bottle of wine for dinner every day and that could easily be $500/mo. or more.

artemidorus

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20301 on: June 19, 2018, 11:08:23 AM »
My co-worker asks if I have Amazon Prime, leading to a conversation about how he just signed up because he wanted an Amazon credit card.

"Now they give you 5% off at Whole Foods if you use an Amazon Prime credit card. We spend about $25,000 a year at Whole Foods, so it'll save us over $1,000."

It's just him and his wife. No kids. Spending over $2,000 a month on groceries.

But hey, good on him trying to save 5%. Baby steps.
Holy crap. Here I was getting cranky at my husband because we're over budget on groceries this month, but we're sitting at $357. How do you even spend that month on groceries?!

I know they're both vegan and only eat organic food, which is how they likely justify it to themselves. I won't pretend to know exactly how much that raises your grocery bill, but I am sure others with those dietary restrictions can weigh in that it's still outlandish

Oof. My first thought was that they were eating high-end steaks a couple of times a week (Whole Foods sells some that are $20+ a pound) but if they are vegan, I bet they are spending a ton on meat and dairy substitutes - there are some really expensive brands. Do they drink? Throw in a bottle of wine for dinner every day and that could easily be $500/mo. or more.

My co-worker isn't a drinker. So if it is a bill that's largely alcohol, the wife is doing it on her own. Seems like a stretch, but it's possibly a contributing factor.

And I've ruled out the "really bad at math" explanation. He's very good at math in our job (even if he can't budget), and even rounding up drastically, wouldn't be off by $10,000 on an estimate of his grocery bills.

He has an encyclopedic memory of every Whole Foods in a 100 mile radius - he discusses the pro's and con's of each with anyone he overhears mention the chain, so it's not like he just goes to the one that is closest to him. I honestly think his hobby is wasting money at Whole Foods, buying everything he could possibly try like it's a new toy, and tossing it half of what they buy when it goes bad.

FIRE@50

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20302 on: June 19, 2018, 11:18:03 AM »
I was at an HOA meeting last night and guy A mentions that guy B won't be around anymore because he is retiring. Guy B says, 'well I'm not really retiring but I realized that now that I'm in my 70's, I should cut back to part-time.' I don't know anything about his finances, but I just kind of felt bad for him. Other people in the room were congratulating him. I'm hoping that he just really loves working.

Dragonswan

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20303 on: June 19, 2018, 12:34:45 PM »
My co-worker asks if I have Amazon Prime, leading to a conversation about how he just signed up because he wanted an Amazon credit card.

"Now they give you 5% off at Whole Foods if you use an Amazon Prime credit card. We spend about $25,000 a year at Whole Foods, so it'll save us over $1,000."

It's just him and his wife. No kids. Spending over $2,000 a month on groceries.

But hey, good on him trying to save 5%. Baby steps.
Holy crap. Here I was getting cranky at my husband because we're over budget on groceries this month, but we're sitting at $357. How do you even spend that month on groceries?!

I know they're both vegan and only eat organic food, which is how they likely justify it to themselves. I won't pretend to know exactly how much that raises your grocery bill, but I am sure others with those dietary restrictions can weigh in that it's still outlandish

Oof. My first thought was that they were eating high-end steaks a couple of times a week (Whole Foods sells some that are $20+ a pound) but if they are vegan, I bet they are spending a ton on meat and dairy substitutes - there are some really expensive brands. Do they drink? Throw in a bottle of wine for dinner every day and that could easily be $500/mo. or more.

My co-worker isn't a drinker. So if it is a bill that's largely alcohol, the wife is doing it on her own. Seems like a stretch, but it's possibly a contributing factor.

And I've ruled out the "really bad at math" explanation. He's very good at math in our job (even if he can't budget), and even rounding up drastically, wouldn't be off by $10,000 on an estimate of his grocery bills.

He has an encyclopedic memory of every Whole Foods in a 100 mile radius - he discusses the pro's and con's of each with anyone he overhears mention the chain, so it's not like he just goes to the one that is closest to him. I honestly think his hobby is wasting money at Whole Foods, buying everything he could possibly try like it's a new toy, and tossing it half of what they buy when it goes bad.
Wow! you'll know I tend towards spendy and make allowances for some un mustachian things.  But this is inexcusable.  Even in Whole Paycheck you have to work at spending that kind of money.  And Vegan?  Does he buy truffles?  Really pricey imported cheese?  Dine at one of their cafes twice a week?  Then maybe that gets you to 1K/person/month.  Still insane and I'm not pardoning his crime against his financials.

Dragonswan

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20304 on: June 19, 2018, 12:42:56 PM »
Yep I've figured it out.  He's addicted to Pule cheese: made from the milk of Balkan donkeys from Serbia.  About $600/lb.

FIRE@50

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20305 on: June 19, 2018, 12:49:06 PM »
Yep I've figured it out.  He's addicted to Pule cheese: made from the milk of Balkan donkeys from Serbia.  About $600/lb.

I know you were just making a joke, but cheese obviously isn't vegan.

I think you might be onto something with the prepared foods though. If you bought lunch and dinner from there on a regular basis, your bill would be pretty shocking.

Dragonswan

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20306 on: June 19, 2018, 01:17:20 PM »
Yes I was joking.  I was going to use black truffles at $700 a pound, but cheese made from exotic donkeys was way funnier.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20307 on: June 19, 2018, 01:32:20 PM »
Yes I was joking.  I was going to use black truffles at $700 a pound, but cheese made from exotic donkeys was way funnier.

Made me laugh.  Seriously, though, how on earth does this guy spend that much at Whole Foods? 

Freedomin5

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20308 on: June 20, 2018, 07:13:18 AM »
Coworkerís baby is turning one. They are spending $300 on an 8-inch cake. And holding the party at a restaurant. I doubt the baby will remember any of it.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20309 on: June 20, 2018, 07:51:18 AM »
Coworkerís baby is turning one. They are spending $300 on an 8-inch cake. And holding the party at a restaurant. I doubt the baby will remember any of it.

If a person were to spend $300 on 8 inches of anything I'd generally expect Heidi Fleiss to be involved. What's in or on the cake that makes it so special? Unicorn sparkle?

Chris22

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20310 on: June 20, 2018, 08:49:34 AM »
Coworkerís baby is turning one. They are spending $300 on an 8-inch cake. And holding the party at a restaurant. I doubt the baby will remember any of it.

You realize the party is not for the baby, it's for friends and family to come celebrate the baby, right?

Not saying $300 for the cake makes sense, but...

o2bfree

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20311 on: June 20, 2018, 09:45:37 AM »
Coworkerís baby is turning one. They are spending $300 on an 8-inch cake. And holding the party at a restaurant. I doubt the baby will remember any of it.

Such spending seems primitive to me, a sacrifice made in fear with the hopes of pleasing the gods. Sacrifice enough, then you'll have perfection and be blessed in all areas of your life. It's like a belief in magic.

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20312 on: June 20, 2018, 10:11:28 AM »
You realize the party is not for the baby, it's for friends and family to come celebrate the baby, right?

You realize you sound like a jerk when you use this phrase, right?

MgoSam

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20313 on: June 20, 2018, 11:28:02 AM »
You realize the party is not for the baby, it's for friends and family to come celebrate the baby, right?

You realize you sound like a jerk when you use this phrase, right?

I'm guessing that Chriss22

a. Doesn't care
b. Would respond by saying, "Did I state anything incorrect"


My sister rented a ballroom, had catered food, and an open bar with top shelf liquor for one of her daughter's first birthday parties. My parents, brother, and many cousins on both sides of the family flew in as did I for the complete shitshow.

It was clearly done for the benefit of my sister and her husband as it isn't like my one year old niece or her 4 year old brother will remember any of this.

Hell when I was one my cousin ceremoniously shaved my head. Somehow that memory wasn't seared into my head.

CupcakeGuru

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20314 on: June 20, 2018, 01:48:06 PM »
Coworkerís baby is turning one. They are spending $300 on an 8-inch cake. And holding the party at a restaurant. I doubt the baby will remember any of it.

You realize the party is not for the baby, it's for friends and family to come celebrate the baby, right?

Not saying $300 for the cake makes sense, but...

It's not for the baby, its for the Facebook and Instagram photos!

JoJo

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20315 on: June 21, 2018, 01:24:52 PM »
Coworkerís baby is turning one. They are spending $300 on an 8-inch cake. And holding the party at a restaurant. I doubt the baby will remember any of it.

This takes the cake!

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20316 on: June 21, 2018, 01:51:16 PM »
Coworkerís baby is turning one. They are spending $300 on an 8-inch cake. And holding the party at a restaurant. I doubt the baby will remember any of it.

This is terrible.  Absolutely ridiculous.  But if one wanted to sample this disgusting waste of cash, which restaurant, specifically, would one need to sneak into?  And which day?

Just Joe

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20317 on: June 21, 2018, 03:29:42 PM »
Coworkerís baby is turning one. They are spending $300 on an 8-inch cake. And holding the party at a restaurant. I doubt the baby will remember any of it.

If a person were to spend $300 on 8 inches of anything I'd generally expect Heidi Fleiss to be involved. What's in or on the cake that makes it so special? Unicorn sparkle?

Controlled substances...

Frugalroogal

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20318 on: June 22, 2018, 02:57:42 AM »
This one is a bit sensitive as it involves IVF and sperm donation. A new coworker told me she had an almost 2 year old via IVF/sperm donation and became a single mother by choice. Good on her, I thought! She then told me how difficult it was to make ends meet after paying for several rounds of IVF and also childcare as a solo mother. So far I was pretty sympathetic. I then saw her buying coffees everyday and lunch most days as well as going to the nearby shopping centre to buy non-necessities. I am slightly less sympathetic at this point. I totally lost all sympathy when she told me that despite her new boyfriendís objections (who didnít want any more children as he is already a parent as well as playing a big role in her daughterís life) she went ahead with more rounds of IVF with the same sperm donor and is now pregnant with child #2. She admitted to me that she has no idea how she is going to afford to go on maternity leave or put her two children in daycare when she goes back to work. Sorry if I seem overly judgmental about this but why go have another child (very deliberately, not an accident) when she is struggling to pay for necessities for her first?

Roadrunner53

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20319 on: June 22, 2018, 05:02:23 AM »
This one is a bit sensitive as it involves IVF and sperm donation. A new coworker told me she had an almost 2 year old via IVF/sperm donation and became a single mother by choice. Good on her, I thought! She then told me how difficult it was to make ends meet after paying for several rounds of IVF and also childcare as a solo mother. So far I was pretty sympathetic. I then saw her buying coffees everyday and lunch most days as well as going to the nearby shopping centre to buy non-necessities. I am slightly less sympathetic at this point. I totally lost all sympathy when she told me that despite her new boyfriend’s objections (who didn’t want any more children as he is already a parent as well as playing a big role in her daughter’s life) she went ahead with more rounds of IVF with the same sperm donor and is now pregnant with child #2. She admitted to me that she has no idea how she is going to afford to go on maternity leave or put her two children in daycare when she goes back to work. Sorry if I seem overly judgmental about this but why go have another child (very deliberately, not an accident) when she is struggling to pay for necessities for her first?

Really DUMB! This is why we keep hearing that kids need to be fed breakfast and lunch at school. What is wrong with people who have children and then have no idea how they can afford to feed them? What if the schools had no food programs like when I was a kid? Would the kids starve to death? I don't want to see anyone starve but how do these parents think nothing of not feeding the kids? How much can a bag of beans, rice and an onion and tomato sauce cost?

MrMoogle

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20320 on: June 22, 2018, 09:14:18 AM »
This one is a bit sensitive as it involves IVF and sperm donation. A new coworker told me she had an almost 2 year old via IVF/sperm donation and became a single mother by choice. Good on her, I thought! She then told me how difficult it was to make ends meet after paying for several rounds of IVF and also childcare as a solo mother. So far I was pretty sympathetic. I then saw her buying coffees everyday and lunch most days as well as going to the nearby shopping centre to buy non-necessities. I am slightly less sympathetic at this point. I totally lost all sympathy when she told me that despite her new boyfriend’s objections (who didn’t want any more children as he is already a parent as well as playing a big role in her daughter’s life) she went ahead with more rounds of IVF with the same sperm donor and is now pregnant with child #2. She admitted to me that she has no idea how she is going to afford to go on maternity leave or put her two children in daycare when she goes back to work. Sorry if I seem overly judgmental about this but why go have another child (very deliberately, not an accident) when she is struggling to pay for necessities for her first?

Really DUMB! This is why we keep hearing that kids need to be fed breakfast and lunch at school. What is wrong with people who have children and then have no idea how they can afford to feed them? What if the schools had no food programs like when I was a kid? Would the kids starve to death? I don't want to see anyone starve but how do these parents think nothing of not feeding the kids? How much can a bag of beans, rice and an onion and tomato sauce cost?

Generally, there's no good way to require people to be able to afford children before they have them.  And when I say "good" I mean morally and practically.  So it's fine that she has now idea how she can afford to feed them.  The problem here is that she has a way to afford to feed them, but instead she's choosing to spend it on IVF, do double the mouths and to remove the $$. 

It seems like a lot of people expect to have EVERYTHING.  I want my lattes and retirement, and I won't choose one over the other, it has to be both.

FIRE@50

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20321 on: June 22, 2018, 09:22:14 AM »
How is she paying for the IVF? Credit cards?

Roadrunner53

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20322 on: June 22, 2018, 09:43:13 AM »
Now there are programs that send the kids home with food for the weekends when they are not at school. I don't want kids to starve but why aren't the parents on food stamps or work or go to a food bank? Who's to say that the kid even eats the food. One of the bully family members may take the food away from the kid. I just don't get it that people have a boat load of kids and don't have food to feed them. Why don't they stop having babies for one thing if they can't afford to feed them. Food and shelter are must have's! I would work 3 rotten jobs before my kid or dogs starved. I would kick my spouse out the door and tell him to get three jobs too. My parents were poor for many years but we had food to eat. I do understand that some people are disabled and that throws a monkey wrench into the situation.

Physicsteacher

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20323 on: June 22, 2018, 10:03:47 AM »
I teach at a school where every student gets free breakfast and lunch under the community eligibility provision of the federal free lunch program. In this small, high poverty, rural community, school is the nexus of social services. Students who attend the after school program, which lasts until 6 p.m. get free dinner as well. Quite a few students get snack packs for the weekends/breaks as well. Lunch is also available for much of the summer. Some of the families are victims of truly tragic circumstances and some of their own bad choices, but I am grateful that no child will starve due to circumstances beyond their control.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20324 on: June 22, 2018, 10:10:54 AM »
I teach at a school where every student gets free breakfast and lunch under the community eligibility provision of the federal free lunch program. In this small, high poverty, rural community, school is the nexus of social services. Students who attend the after school program, which lasts until 6 p.m. get free dinner as well. Quite a few students get snack packs for the weekends/breaks as well. Lunch is also available for much of the summer. Some of the families are victims of truly tragic circumstances and some of their own bad choices, but I am grateful that no child will starve due to circumstances beyond their control.

Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control. Offer free birth control. Offer job training. Whatever it takes to get these people on their feet to provide for their families.

solon

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20325 on: June 22, 2018, 11:17:18 AM »
And we haven't even started on the crazy idea that VOLUNTARY single-parenthood is a good idea...

FIRE@50

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20326 on: June 22, 2018, 11:28:29 AM »
I teach at a school where every student gets free breakfast and lunch under the community eligibility provision of the federal free lunch program. In this small, high poverty, rural community, school is the nexus of social services. Students who attend the after school program, which lasts until 6 p.m. get free dinner as well. Quite a few students get snack packs for the weekends/breaks as well. Lunch is also available for much of the summer. Some of the families are victims of truly tragic circumstances and some of their own bad choices, but I am grateful that no child will starve due to circumstances beyond their control.

Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control. Offer free birth control. Offer job training. Whatever it takes to get these people on their feet to provide for their families.
Sterilized? Take a deep breath. Have you considered that perhaps the children are only eating the free meals for a short period of time? Like the parents are just in between jobs or something? I'm all for taking personal responsibility but c'mon. I think you have some other plausible ideas.

On the other hand, I'd probably take a free vasectomy right now.

Just Joe

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20327 on: June 22, 2018, 11:37:27 AM »
Some sort of voluntary permanent birth control with the gov't providing funding up front. Maybe it is a gimme or maybe it is a we'll take it out of your taxes spread out over a decade, so slow you won't notice the cost thing.

Anyhow - encourage people who don't want to raise kids and support their kids not to have kids.

I know it isn't that simple - religion, ethnic and gender topics, politics (aka Republicans) - blah, blah, blah.

Still personal responsibility and long term planning ought to be frequent discussion topics in America.

Put the politicians at the front of the line. ;)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 12:31:52 PM by Just Joe »

Roadrunner53

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20328 on: June 22, 2018, 11:45:29 AM »
I teach at a school where every student gets free breakfast and lunch under the community eligibility provision of the federal free lunch program. In this small, high poverty, rural community, school is the nexus of social services. Students who attend the after school program, which lasts until 6 p.m. get free dinner as well. Quite a few students get snack packs for the weekends/breaks as well. Lunch is also available for much of the summer. Some of the families are victims of truly tragic circumstances and some of their own bad choices, but I am grateful that no child will starve due to circumstances beyond their control.

Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control. Offer free birth control. Offer job training. Whatever it takes to get these people on their feet to provide for their families.
Sterilized? Take a deep breath. Have you considered that perhaps the children are only eating the free meals for a short period of time? Like the parents are just in between jobs or something? I'm all for taking personal responsibility but c'mon. I think you have some other plausible ideas.

On the other hand, I'd probably take a free vasectomy right now.

Fire@50 I am not saying to yank people off the street and sterilize them. I am saying offer this choice or birth control. If they can't afford to feed the kids they obviously cannot afford to buy birth control. I am not suggesting forcing them to get birth control or sterilization. Yes, they could be temporarily unemployed or any other bad things can happen. Some might  not want to get pregnant again and would embrace some help. My Grandma had 6 living children and 4 children that died in childhood. She was a farm wife and these people were like the grapes of wrath. I am sure if someone suggested birth control back in her day she might have said yes. My point is why bring more kids into this world if you cannot provide for them.

LennStar

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20329 on: June 22, 2018, 11:59:31 AM »
I teach at a school where every student gets free breakfast and lunch under the community eligibility provision of the federal free lunch program. In this small, high poverty, rural community, school is the nexus of social services. Students who attend the after school program, which lasts until 6 p.m. get free dinner as well. Quite a few students get snack packs for the weekends/breaks as well. Lunch is also available for much of the summer. Some of the families are victims of truly tragic circumstances and some of their own bad choices, but I am grateful that no child will starve due to circumstances beyond their control.

Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control. Offer free birth control. Offer job training. Whatever it takes to get these people on their feet to provide for their families.

We had that sterilization thingy here in Germany in the early 1930s, to prevent poor children.

Quote
I am not suggesting forcing them to get birth control or sterilization.
Dont' worry. Somebody else will make that step for you.
We had that here in Germany, in the later 1930.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 12:03:03 PM by LennStar »

ysette9

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20330 on: June 22, 2018, 12:02:18 PM »
I teach at a school where every student gets free breakfast and lunch under the community eligibility provision of the federal free lunch program. In this small, high poverty, rural community, school is the nexus of social services. Students who attend the after school program, which lasts until 6 p.m. get free dinner as well. Quite a few students get snack packs for the weekends/breaks as well. Lunch is also available for much of the summer. Some of the families are victims of truly tragic circumstances and some of their own bad choices, but I am grateful that no child will starve due to circumstances beyond their control.

Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control. Offer free birth control. Offer job training. Whatever it takes to get these people on their feet to provide for their families.
Sterilized? Take a deep breath. Have you considered that perhaps the children are only eating the free meals for a short period of time? Like the parents are just in between jobs or something? I'm all for taking personal responsibility but c'mon. I think you have some other plausible ideas.

On the other hand, I'd probably take a free vasectomy right now.

Fire@50 I am not saying to yank people off the street and sterilize them. I am saying offer this choice or birth control. If they can't afford to feed the kids they obviously cannot afford to buy birth control. I am not suggesting forcing them to get birth control or sterilization. Yes, they could be temporarily unemployed or any other bad things can happen. Some might  not want to get pregnant again and would embrace some help. My Grandma had 6 living children and 4 children that died in childhood. She was a farm wife and these people were like the grapes of wrath. I am sure if someone suggested birth control back in her day she might have said yes. My point is why bring more kids into this world if you cannot provide for them.
Free and easily accessible birth control is a fantastic idea. That is how other developed countries have teen pregnancy and abortion rates that are so much lower than ours. Go lobby your representative to fund Planned Parenthood. :) Many studies have shown over and over that having control over your fertility is a necessary part of economic development that lifts countries out of poverty. I’m not sure why the US is so slow to get that message.

Anecdotally: I remember doing this little school project in high school where I interviewed some neighbors on the topic of providing condoms in schools. I remember in particular some people responding that they didn’t support it because they felt it would encourage sex (never mind the data day otherwise). Skip to my year in France as an exchange student where a fellow friend needed birth control and sent me (the city dweller) to some random gov office to ask for condoms. The lady just opened up a desk drawer and handed me a bunch, no questions asked. Take a guess as to which country has a higher teen pregnancy rate. The year I was there was the year France made the morning after pill available over-the-counter. That was LAST CENTURY people.


dividend

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20331 on: June 22, 2018, 12:14:26 PM »
Not so much overheard, but just the general mood in my office as we approach bonus time.  These are non-contractually guaranteed, discretionary bonuses, and the number of people counting on them and/or having already spent them in anticipation is mind-boggling.  Max expected payout is 5%, twice a year.  (Company made the very popular decision last December to get that cycle's bonus into checks before Christmas instead of the first paycheck of the next year because of complaints about needing that money for Christmas.)

One of my coworker's asked me what I was going to spend my bonus on.  I said I'd probably just toss it into savings, it amounts to about 1 extra paycheck so nbd.  He said "most people can't afford to just save it - a lot of people count on it."  Later we were talking about how one of the first steps when you begin improving your financial situation is the idea of living off last month's income (getting to a point where you're budgeting ahead, rather than in arrears).  He said, "that requires saving like a whole month's pay - it would take a lot of people 8 or 9 months just to get to that point."  I suppose that's true if they can't even afford to save their discretionary bonus. 

I mean, I get that I probably look fortunate and privileged to not have to worry about day to day or even month to month cash-flow, or emergencies.  But I'm there because I've been budgeting carefully since I started out, living on $8.50/hour 15 years ago, when an emergency was a $200 car repair and I couldn't even get a credit card because of terrible decisions in college.  These are all tech professionals who are 5, 10, 20 years into their careers. 

Imma

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20332 on: June 22, 2018, 12:25:26 PM »
I teach at a school where every student gets free breakfast and lunch under the community eligibility provision of the federal free lunch program. In this small, high poverty, rural community, school is the nexus of social services. Students who attend the after school program, which lasts until 6 p.m. get free dinner as well. Quite a few students get snack packs for the weekends/breaks as well. Lunch is also available for much of the summer. Some of the families are victims of truly tragic circumstances and some of their own bad choices, but I am grateful that no child will starve due to circumstances beyond their control.

Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control. Offer free birth control. Offer job training. Whatever it takes to get these people on their feet to provide for their families.
Sterilized? Take a deep breath. Have you considered that perhaps the children are only eating the free meals for a short period of time? Like the parents are just in between jobs or something? I'm all for taking personal responsibility but c'mon. I think you have some other plausible ideas.

On the other hand, I'd probably take a free vasectomy right now.

Fire@50 I am not saying to yank people off the street and sterilize them. I am saying offer this choice or birth control. If they can't afford to feed the kids they obviously cannot afford to buy birth control. I am not suggesting forcing them to get birth control or sterilization. Yes, they could be temporarily unemployed or any other bad things can happen. Some might  not want to get pregnant again and would embrace some help. My Grandma had 6 living children and 4 children that died in childhood. She was a farm wife and these people were like the grapes of wrath. I am sure if someone suggested birth control back in her day she might have said yes. My point is why bring more kids into this world if you cannot provide for them.
Free and easily accessible birth control is a fantastic idea. That is how other developed countries have teen pregnancy and abortion rates that are so much lower than ours. Go lobby your representative to fund Planned Parenthood. :) Many studies have shown over and over that having control over your fertility is a necessary part of economic development that lifts countries out of poverty. Iím not sure why the US is so slow to get that message.

Anecdotally: I remember doing this little school project in high school where I interviewed some neighbors on the topic of providing condoms in schools. I remember in particular some people responding that they didnít support it because they felt it would encourage sex (never mind the data day otherwise). Skip to my year in France as an exchange student where a fellow friend needed birth control and sent me (the city dweller) to some random gov office to ask for condoms. The lady just opened up a desk drawer and handed me a bunch, no questions asked. Take a guess as to which country has a higher teen pregnancy rate. The year I was there was the year France made the morning after pill available over-the-counter. That was LAST CENTURY people.

Jup. In my country the teen pregnancy rate is about 2 per 1000 girls and the teen abortion rate is 4 per 1000 (both abortions and contraception are completely free for minors) . According to wikipedia there are American states where the teen birth rate is over 60 per 1000, and in certain communities it is much, much higher. That's just insane.

Teenagers are going to experiment with sex, that's just the reality of life. Can anyone remember a time when abstinence worked? I am totally pro-choice, but I do believe we should try to get our abortion rate as low as we can, and the best way to prevent abortion is by offering reliable and affordable contraception.

Miss Piggy

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20333 on: June 22, 2018, 12:27:46 PM »
In my country the teen pregnancy rate is about 2 per 1000 girls and the teen abortion rate is 4 per 1000 (both abortions and contraception are completely free for minors) .

These number don't add up. Is the actual "I got pregnant" rate 6 per 1000? And 4 of those 6 decide to abort?

ms

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20334 on: June 22, 2018, 12:53:03 PM »
"I can't retire on 75k/year. Yeah, I know it's 75k each (ie him and his wife) but I'm going to need at least 100k/year when I retire."

Davnasty

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20335 on: June 22, 2018, 01:22:42 PM »
I teach at a school where every student gets free breakfast and lunch under the community eligibility provision of the federal free lunch program. In this small, high poverty, rural community, school is the nexus of social services. Students who attend the after school program, which lasts until 6 p.m. get free dinner as well. Quite a few students get snack packs for the weekends/breaks as well. Lunch is also available for much of the summer. Some of the families are victims of truly tragic circumstances and some of their own bad choices, but I am grateful that no child will starve due to circumstances beyond their control.

Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control. Offer free birth control. Offer job training. Whatever it takes to get these people on their feet to provide for their families.
Sterilized? Take a deep breath. Have you considered that perhaps the children are only eating the free meals for a short period of time? Like the parents are just in between jobs or something? I'm all for taking personal responsibility but c'mon. I think you have some other plausible ideas.

On the other hand, I'd probably take a free vasectomy right now.

Fire@50 I am not saying to yank people off the street and sterilize them. I am saying offer this choice or birth control. If they can't afford to feed the kids they obviously cannot afford to buy birth control. I am not suggesting forcing them to get birth control or sterilization. Yes, they could be temporarily unemployed or any other bad things can happen. Some might  not want to get pregnant again and would embrace some help. My Grandma had 6 living children and 4 children that died in childhood. She was a farm wife and these people were like the grapes of wrath. I am sure if someone suggested birth control back in her day she might have said yes. My point is why bring more kids into this world if you cannot provide for them.
Free and easily accessible birth control is a fantastic idea. That is how other developed countries have teen pregnancy and abortion rates that are so much lower than ours. Go lobby your representative to fund Planned Parenthood. :) Many studies have shown over and over that having control over your fertility is a necessary part of economic development that lifts countries out of poverty. Iím not sure why the US is so slow to get that message.

Anecdotally: I remember doing this little school project in high school where I interviewed some neighbors on the topic of providing condoms in schools. I remember in particular some people responding that they didnít support it because they felt it would encourage sex (never mind the data day otherwise). Skip to my year in France as an exchange student where a fellow friend needed birth control and sent me (the city dweller) to some random gov office to ask for condoms. The lady just opened up a desk drawer and handed me a bunch, no questions asked. Take a guess as to which country has a higher teen pregnancy rate. The year I was there was the year France made the morning after pill available over-the-counter. That was LAST CENTURY people.

Lol, no encouragement needed. All high school boys need is enough courage to ask and someone to say yes.

runbikerun

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20336 on: June 22, 2018, 01:41:43 PM »
Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control.

Today in "I have a viciously mean-spirited opinion that's completely divorced from reality and history and I'm fucking well proud of it"...

What the absolute hell? You seriously think that encouraging the sterilisation of poor people is a sound public policy, rather than the first step on the road to a totalitarian dystopia? You don't think there's any problem with the state effectively pushing for the sterilisation of disadvantaged minorities?

Paul der Krake

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20337 on: June 22, 2018, 01:51:57 PM »
In my country the teen pregnancy rate is about 2 per 1000 girls and the teen abortion rate is 4 per 1000 (both abortions and contraception are completely free for minors) .

These number don't add up. Is the actual "I got pregnant" rate 6 per 1000? And 4 of those 6 decide to abort?
Why wouldn't it add up? In the rest of the developed world, the pill costs $1-3 per month, and people who have outdated religious views don't get to control school boards. Teen pregnancy is mostly an American thing, with the UK a distant second.

FIRE@50

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20338 on: June 22, 2018, 01:57:48 PM »
In my country the teen pregnancy rate is about 2 per 1000 girls and the teen abortion rate is 4 per 1000 (both abortions and contraception are completely free for minors) .

These number don't add up. Is the actual "I got pregnant" rate 6 per 1000? And 4 of those 6 decide to abort?
Why wouldn't it add up? In the rest of the developed world, the pill costs $1-3 per month, and people who have outdated religious views don't get to control school boards. Teen pregnancy is mostly an American thing, with the UK a distant second.
You aren't seeing it. 2 pregnancies can't result in 4 abortions.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20339 on: June 22, 2018, 02:01:02 PM »
Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control.

Today in "I have a viciously mean-spirited opinion that's completely divorced from reality and history and I'm fucking well proud of it"...

What the absolute hell? You seriously think that encouraging the sterilisation of poor people is a sound public policy, rather than the first step on the road to a totalitarian dystopia? You don't think there's any problem with the state effectively pushing for the sterilisation of disadvantaged minorities?

At the very least the suggestion is not mean spirited, even if you think the results of such a policy would be negative.

I think people make connections between the word sterilization and the terrible ways forced sterilization was used in the past. Somewhat like the connections often made with communism and socialism. Not to mention it was sterilization OR birth control. Would you feel better if they said free vasectomys, tubal occlusions, or more temporary forms of birth control?

Miss Piggy

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20340 on: June 22, 2018, 02:04:18 PM »
In my country the teen pregnancy rate is about 2 per 1000 girls and the teen abortion rate is 4 per 1000 (both abortions and contraception are completely free for minors) .

These number don't add up. Is the actual "I got pregnant" rate 6 per 1000? And 4 of those 6 decide to abort?
Why wouldn't it add up? In the rest of the developed world, the pill costs $1-3 per month, and people who have outdated religious views don't get to control school boards. Teen pregnancy is mostly an American thing, with the UK a distant second.
You aren't seeing it. 2 pregnancies can't result in 4 abortions.

Regardless, those numbers are amazingly low, so if they are even close to accurate, somebody is doing something right.

FIRE@50

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20341 on: June 22, 2018, 02:07:09 PM »
The temporary use of social services should not mean that you need to be sterilized. Can you really not see that?

Frugalroogal

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20342 on: June 22, 2018, 02:31:12 PM »
How is she paying for the IVF? Credit cards?

I can only assume that there would be some type of debt to pay for the IVF. She said that it has cost her around $50 000 in IVF to get to the point of 1 child and 1 viable pregnancy. She does have a reasonably high paying job but not enough to cover that kind of expenditure as well as daycare fees.

In the throes of morning sickness yesterday she said she had to go and buy something nice for the baby so she didnít totally regret her decision so off she went to the shops to buy baby clothes, although she has plenty of clothes from the first time around. In the afternoon she mentioned that she may have to break up with her new boyfriend (who lives with her and her daughter) and get him to move out of the house to reduce the household income to be eligible for more government benefits. Not sure if this was the morning sickness talking or if she was serious.

A note to say this example is not from the USA (itís from Australia) so we donít get a food program at school (that I know of) but we do have a generous social security system.

Davnasty

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20343 on: June 22, 2018, 02:36:59 PM »
How is she paying for the IVF? Credit cards?

I can only assume that there would be some type of debt to pay for the IVF. She said that it has cost her around $50 000 in IVF to get to the point of 1 child and 1 viable pregnancy. She does have a reasonably high paying job but not enough to cover that kind of expenditure as well as daycare fees.

In the throes of morning sickness yesterday she said she had to go and buy something nice for the baby so she didnít totally regret her decision so off she went to the shops to buy baby clothes, although she has plenty of clothes from the first time around. In the afternoon she mentioned that she may have to break up with her new boyfriend (who lives with her and her daughter) and get him to move out of the house to reduce the household income to be eligible for more government benefits. Not sure if this was the morning sickness talking or if she was serious.

A note to say this example is not from the USA (itís from Australia) so we donít get a food program at school (that I know of) but we do have a generous social security system.

The boyfriend isn't gone yet? She chose a donor over him (maybe there were complications I'm not aware of?) but more importantly she decided to get pregnant against his wishes. That seems incredibly selfish if you're planning a future together.

Imma

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20344 on: June 22, 2018, 02:50:47 PM »
In my country the teen pregnancy rate is about 2 per 1000 girls and the teen abortion rate is 4 per 1000 (both abortions and contraception are completely free for minors) .

These number don't add up. Is the actual "I got pregnant" rate 6 per 1000? And 4 of those 6 decide to abort?
Why wouldn't it add up? In the rest of the developed world, the pill costs $1-3 per month, and people who have outdated religious views don't get to control school boards. Teen pregnancy is mostly an American thing, with the UK a distant second.
You aren't seeing it. 2 pregnancies can't result in 4 abortions.

Regardless, those numbers are amazingly low, so if they are even close to accurate, somebody is doing something right.

Maybe I should have typed 'teen birth rate' and 'teen abortion rate'. Yes, 6 out of 1000 girls get pregnant, 4 out of those 6 choose to abort. Most of those abortions are very early in the pregnancy and are medical (pill) rather than surgical abortions. The morning after pill is available over the counter.

I could not find any recent official sources for my numbers, only news articles in Dutch and some in English: https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2017/12/the-netherlands-has-lowest-rate-of-teenage-mothers-in-the-eu/  the outdated article on wikipedia gives 5 per 1000 in 2002 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_teenage_pregnancy#Netherlands  . But even if I'm off by 1 or 2 girls per 1000, the facts show that education and contraception is a winning combination with free abortion as an emergency option in case things go wrong. Also, Dutch parents are quite liberal. That doesn't mean they are comfortable with their children being promiscuous, but they accept that older teenagers (16+) with a steady girlfriend / boyfriend are going to be interested in having sex at some point. They will have "the talk" and make sure their kids have access to contraception, and generally allow their children some privacy and to have their boyfriend/girlfriend stay the night.

In my personal experience, girls who fall pregnant are often from strict Christian backgrounds and are supported by their own family and the father's family (and generally get married). The simple reason why these girls fall pregnant? They don't have as much access to sexual education as their peers do and their parents restrict them in seeing their boyfriend. They end up having sex in a back alley or at a friend's party, they are unprepared, don't have condoms and don't want the pill in case their parents find it.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20345 on: June 22, 2018, 02:53:29 PM »
I teach at a school where every student gets free breakfast and lunch under the community eligibility provision of the federal free lunch program. In this small, high poverty, rural community, school is the nexus of social services. Students who attend the after school program, which lasts until 6 p.m. get free dinner as well. Quite a few students get snack packs for the weekends/breaks as well. Lunch is also available for much of the summer. Some of the families are victims of truly tragic circumstances and some of their own bad choices, but I am grateful that no child will starve due to circumstances beyond their control.
Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control. Offer free birth control. Offer job training. Whatever it takes to get these people on their feet to provide for their families.

Exactly which problems that are serious enough to make a parent unable to provide for his or her children do you believe can be solved by group therapy (i.e. sitting in a circle and making mouth noises)?

(pause while Grim sets Ye Old Sarcasm Generator to 11)

  • Multiple sclerosis?
  • Cancer?
  • A traumatic brain injury due to having to been the victim of a violent crime?
  • A stroke?
  • Amputation?
  • Paralysis due to having been shot in the neck while sleeping in one's own bed because someone did a drive-by shooting at the wrong house?
  • A crippled body due to having been run over by a texting driver?
  • An extreme chemical imbalance in the brain known as bipolar disorder or major depression?
  • A chemical dependency so strong that the parent goes into convulsions without access to the drug?
  • Incarceration? Will group therapy magically allow a person serving a 15-year sentence to be in two places at once?
  • How about the need to care for an aging or dying family member such as a parent who develops Parkinson's or Alzheimer's, or a child who turns out to have autism? I bet group therapy will just magically make all those other crushing time commitments disappear so that the person who has them will be fully available to work and earn money instead of being overwhelmed by caregiving duties because other long-term care options simply do not exist.
  • Oh, I know-- maybe group therapy can compensate for an unwanted pregnancy that is so high-risk that the person who has it is unable to get out of bed for several weeks.
  • Wait, wait, I've got it now. Group therapy is for the remaining adult(s) in the family, if there are any, who are compensating for or caring for a family member who is in one of the previous categories on this list.

(Sarcasm off)

Seriously, though. Bad things happen to good people all the time, and when they do, they take out the entire family. When the stress is that intense and that ongoing, "therapy" is simply one more time and money sink on top of umpteen others.

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data", but the above points are things that have happened to people I've personally met or been in contact with. Having a family member who is sick or who has special needs monopolizes a family's resources and can create a deteriorating situation where more and more people snap under the pressure and just can't deal. Community based support, even if it's just a question of making sure the kids are fed, frees up the remaining adults and their resources to help ensure that (a) the kids survive, and (b) the family gets back on its feet.

Are there families that rely on social services for generations in a row? Yes, there are. Yet the system wasn't put in place for them so much as for the people who would otherwise be the victims of theft or worse when desperate people start to do desperate things. The system is in place to help the average family or individual who is down on his or her luck or who has made some bad decisions and is climbing out of the hole he or she dug. Most people who use food benefits do it temporarily. The presence of some people who do otherwise, or who abuse the system, does not mean the entire system is worthless or without merit.

Frugalroogal

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20346 on: June 22, 2018, 03:02:47 PM »
How is she paying for the IVF? Credit cards?

I can only assume that there would be some type of debt to pay for the IVF. She said that it has cost her around $50 000 in IVF to get to the point of 1 child and 1 viable pregnancy. She does have a reasonably high paying job but not enough to cover that kind of expenditure as well as daycare fees.

In the throes of morning sickness yesterday she said she had to go and buy something nice for the baby so she didnít totally regret her decision so off she went to the shops to buy baby clothes, although she has plenty of clothes from the first time around. In the afternoon she mentioned that she may have to break up with her new boyfriend (who lives with her and her daughter) and get him to move out of the house to reduce the household income to be eligible for more government benefits. Not sure if this was the morning sickness talking or if she was serious.

A note to say this example is not from the USA (itís from Australia) so we donít get a food program at school (that I know of) but we do have a generous social security system.

The boyfriend isn't gone yet? She chose a donor over him (maybe there were complications I'm not aware of?) but more importantly she decided to get pregnant against his wishes. That seems incredibly selfish if you're planning a future together.

She chose a donor over him as he didnít want any more children. They havenít broken up but if it was me I wouldnít have hung around after she decided to have more children. I donít think they talked about the IVF in great detail before she got pregnant as he was apparently quite surprised that it worked and asked if he would be put on the birth certificate as the father. To his apparent great relief the answer was no.

runbikerun

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20347 on: June 22, 2018, 03:13:59 PM »
Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control.

Today in "I have a viciously mean-spirited opinion that's completely divorced from reality and history and I'm fucking well proud of it"...

What the absolute hell? You seriously think that encouraging the sterilisation of poor people is a sound public policy, rather than the first step on the road to a totalitarian dystopia? You don't think there's any problem with the state effectively pushing for the sterilisation of disadvantaged minorities?

At the very least the suggestion is not mean spirited, even if you think the results of such a policy would be negative.

I think people make connections between the word sterilization and the terrible ways forced sterilization was used in the past. Somewhat like the connections often made with communism and socialism. Not to mention it was sterilization OR birth control. Would you feel better if they said free vasectomys, tubal occlusions, or more temporary forms of birth control?

Let's not engage in this muddying of waters. I made it perfectly clear that what I found unconscionable in the post was the argument that poor people be "encouraged to be sterilized". I stand by my assessment: thinking poor people should be encouraged to be sterilised is viciously mean-spirited and based around the idea that the creation of human life should, to some extent, be reserved for the wealthy. Of course people make connections between the word and the terrible ways sterilisation was used in the past - because as a species, we have a perfect batting record on state-endorsed sterilisation leading to awful and hateful outcomes. Ignoring that ignominious history and the wreckage of human lives it created is morally indefensible. At an absolute base minimum, anyone arguing for state-endorsed sterilisation should be starting off by acknowledging that horrific history and explaining exactly how their idea will avoid the pitfalls that every other case has led to - but we didn't even get that, just a casual suggestion that we sterilise poor people, as though that's a reasonable starting point for a policy discussion.

OtherJen

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20348 on: June 22, 2018, 04:15:54 PM »
Jup. In my country the teen pregnancy rate is about 2 per 1000 girls and the teen abortion rate is 4 per 1000 (both abortions and contraception are completely free for minors) . According to wikipedia there are American states where the teen birth rate is over 60 per 1000, and in certain communities it is much, much higher. That's just insane.

Teenagers are going to experiment with sex, that's just the reality of life. Can anyone remember a time when abstinence worked? I am totally pro-choice, but I do believe we should try to get our abortion rate as low as we can, and the best way to prevent abortion is by offering reliable and affordable contraception.

Regarding the incidence of 60/1000: as an American, I believe it. I have a large extended family, and getting pregnant and becoming a single mom by age 21 seems to have become a rite of passage among many of my younger female cousins. They're all from conservative religious backgrounds, so they're exposed to plenty of the "no sex ed/birth control is evil/abortion is murder" trifecta. Clearly, that plan works super well. [/sarcasm]

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20349 on: June 22, 2018, 04:21:28 PM »
Wow, wow, wow.
I know mustachians generally like to think that wealth is entirely based on choices, but that's not actually the case. There are many reasons why a family can be in financial trouble. Like significant and expensive health issues. To suggest that someone struggling AT THAT TIME (because lets remember that you're only seeing a single point in someones' life) should be steralised is kind of sickening. Do you want to live in a society where no one gets to fuck up? Where no one gets to learn and grow, but instead gets punished? I don't.