Author Topic: Overheard at Work  (Read 8476176 times)

LennStar

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1039
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20400 on: June 22, 2018, 11:59:31 AM »
I teach at a school where every student gets free breakfast and lunch under the community eligibility provision of the federal free lunch program. In this small, high poverty, rural community, school is the nexus of social services. Students who attend the after school program, which lasts until 6 p.m. get free dinner as well. Quite a few students get snack packs for the weekends/breaks as well. Lunch is also available for much of the summer. Some of the families are victims of truly tragic circumstances and some of their own bad choices, but I am grateful that no child will starve due to circumstances beyond their control.

Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control. Offer free birth control. Offer job training. Whatever it takes to get these people on their feet to provide for their families.

We had that sterilization thingy here in Germany in the early 1930s, to prevent poor children.

Quote
I am not suggesting forcing them to get birth control or sterilization.
Dont' worry. Somebody else will make that step for you.
We had that here in Germany, in the later 1930.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 12:03:03 PM by LennStar »

ysette9

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3090
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20401 on: June 22, 2018, 12:02:18 PM »
I teach at a school where every student gets free breakfast and lunch under the community eligibility provision of the federal free lunch program. In this small, high poverty, rural community, school is the nexus of social services. Students who attend the after school program, which lasts until 6 p.m. get free dinner as well. Quite a few students get snack packs for the weekends/breaks as well. Lunch is also available for much of the summer. Some of the families are victims of truly tragic circumstances and some of their own bad choices, but I am grateful that no child will starve due to circumstances beyond their control.

Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control. Offer free birth control. Offer job training. Whatever it takes to get these people on their feet to provide for their families.
Sterilized? Take a deep breath. Have you considered that perhaps the children are only eating the free meals for a short period of time? Like the parents are just in between jobs or something? I'm all for taking personal responsibility but c'mon. I think you have some other plausible ideas.

On the other hand, I'd probably take a free vasectomy right now.

Fire@50 I am not saying to yank people off the street and sterilize them. I am saying offer this choice or birth control. If they can't afford to feed the kids they obviously cannot afford to buy birth control. I am not suggesting forcing them to get birth control or sterilization. Yes, they could be temporarily unemployed or any other bad things can happen. Some might  not want to get pregnant again and would embrace some help. My Grandma had 6 living children and 4 children that died in childhood. She was a farm wife and these people were like the grapes of wrath. I am sure if someone suggested birth control back in her day she might have said yes. My point is why bring more kids into this world if you cannot provide for them.
Free and easily accessible birth control is a fantastic idea. That is how other developed countries have teen pregnancy and abortion rates that are so much lower than ours. Go lobby your representative to fund Planned Parenthood. :) Many studies have shown over and over that having control over your fertility is a necessary part of economic development that lifts countries out of poverty. I’m not sure why the US is so slow to get that message.

Anecdotally: I remember doing this little school project in high school where I interviewed some neighbors on the topic of providing condoms in schools. I remember in particular some people responding that they didn’t support it because they felt it would encourage sex (never mind the data day otherwise). Skip to my year in France as an exchange student where a fellow friend needed birth control and sent me (the city dweller) to some random gov office to ask for condoms. The lady just opened up a desk drawer and handed me a bunch, no questions asked. Take a guess as to which country has a higher teen pregnancy rate. The year I was there was the year France made the morning after pill available over-the-counter. That was LAST CENTURY people.


dividend

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 42
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20402 on: June 22, 2018, 12:14:26 PM »
Not so much overheard, but just the general mood in my office as we approach bonus time.  These are non-contractually guaranteed, discretionary bonuses, and the number of people counting on them and/or having already spent them in anticipation is mind-boggling.  Max expected payout is 5%, twice a year.  (Company made the very popular decision last December to get that cycle's bonus into checks before Christmas instead of the first paycheck of the next year because of complaints about needing that money for Christmas.)

One of my coworker's asked me what I was going to spend my bonus on.  I said I'd probably just toss it into savings, it amounts to about 1 extra paycheck so nbd.  He said "most people can't afford to just save it - a lot of people count on it."  Later we were talking about how one of the first steps when you begin improving your financial situation is the idea of living off last month's income (getting to a point where you're budgeting ahead, rather than in arrears).  He said, "that requires saving like a whole month's pay - it would take a lot of people 8 or 9 months just to get to that point."  I suppose that's true if they can't even afford to save their discretionary bonus. 

I mean, I get that I probably look fortunate and privileged to not have to worry about day to day or even month to month cash-flow, or emergencies.  But I'm there because I've been budgeting carefully since I started out, living on $8.50/hour 15 years ago, when an emergency was a $200 car repair and I couldn't even get a credit card because of terrible decisions in college.  These are all tech professionals who are 5, 10, 20 years into their careers. 

Imma

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1152
  • Location: Europe
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20403 on: June 22, 2018, 12:25:26 PM »
I teach at a school where every student gets free breakfast and lunch under the community eligibility provision of the federal free lunch program. In this small, high poverty, rural community, school is the nexus of social services. Students who attend the after school program, which lasts until 6 p.m. get free dinner as well. Quite a few students get snack packs for the weekends/breaks as well. Lunch is also available for much of the summer. Some of the families are victims of truly tragic circumstances and some of their own bad choices, but I am grateful that no child will starve due to circumstances beyond their control.

Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control. Offer free birth control. Offer job training. Whatever it takes to get these people on their feet to provide for their families.
Sterilized? Take a deep breath. Have you considered that perhaps the children are only eating the free meals for a short period of time? Like the parents are just in between jobs or something? I'm all for taking personal responsibility but c'mon. I think you have some other plausible ideas.

On the other hand, I'd probably take a free vasectomy right now.

Fire@50 I am not saying to yank people off the street and sterilize them. I am saying offer this choice or birth control. If they can't afford to feed the kids they obviously cannot afford to buy birth control. I am not suggesting forcing them to get birth control or sterilization. Yes, they could be temporarily unemployed or any other bad things can happen. Some might  not want to get pregnant again and would embrace some help. My Grandma had 6 living children and 4 children that died in childhood. She was a farm wife and these people were like the grapes of wrath. I am sure if someone suggested birth control back in her day she might have said yes. My point is why bring more kids into this world if you cannot provide for them.
Free and easily accessible birth control is a fantastic idea. That is how other developed countries have teen pregnancy and abortion rates that are so much lower than ours. Go lobby your representative to fund Planned Parenthood. :) Many studies have shown over and over that having control over your fertility is a necessary part of economic development that lifts countries out of poverty. Iím not sure why the US is so slow to get that message.

Anecdotally: I remember doing this little school project in high school where I interviewed some neighbors on the topic of providing condoms in schools. I remember in particular some people responding that they didnít support it because they felt it would encourage sex (never mind the data day otherwise). Skip to my year in France as an exchange student where a fellow friend needed birth control and sent me (the city dweller) to some random gov office to ask for condoms. The lady just opened up a desk drawer and handed me a bunch, no questions asked. Take a guess as to which country has a higher teen pregnancy rate. The year I was there was the year France made the morning after pill available over-the-counter. That was LAST CENTURY people.

Jup. In my country the teen pregnancy rate is about 2 per 1000 girls and the teen abortion rate is 4 per 1000 (both abortions and contraception are completely free for minors) . According to wikipedia there are American states where the teen birth rate is over 60 per 1000, and in certain communities it is much, much higher. That's just insane.

Teenagers are going to experiment with sex, that's just the reality of life. Can anyone remember a time when abstinence worked? I am totally pro-choice, but I do believe we should try to get our abortion rate as low as we can, and the best way to prevent abortion is by offering reliable and affordable contraception.

Miss Piggy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1224
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20404 on: June 22, 2018, 12:27:46 PM »
In my country the teen pregnancy rate is about 2 per 1000 girls and the teen abortion rate is 4 per 1000 (both abortions and contraception are completely free for minors) .

These number don't add up. Is the actual "I got pregnant" rate 6 per 1000? And 4 of those 6 decide to abort?

ms

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 79
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20405 on: June 22, 2018, 12:53:03 PM »
"I can't retire on 75k/year. Yeah, I know it's 75k each (ie him and his wife) but I'm going to need at least 100k/year when I retire."

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Age: 29
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20406 on: June 22, 2018, 01:22:42 PM »
I teach at a school where every student gets free breakfast and lunch under the community eligibility provision of the federal free lunch program. In this small, high poverty, rural community, school is the nexus of social services. Students who attend the after school program, which lasts until 6 p.m. get free dinner as well. Quite a few students get snack packs for the weekends/breaks as well. Lunch is also available for much of the summer. Some of the families are victims of truly tragic circumstances and some of their own bad choices, but I am grateful that no child will starve due to circumstances beyond their control.

Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control. Offer free birth control. Offer job training. Whatever it takes to get these people on their feet to provide for their families.
Sterilized? Take a deep breath. Have you considered that perhaps the children are only eating the free meals for a short period of time? Like the parents are just in between jobs or something? I'm all for taking personal responsibility but c'mon. I think you have some other plausible ideas.

On the other hand, I'd probably take a free vasectomy right now.

Fire@50 I am not saying to yank people off the street and sterilize them. I am saying offer this choice or birth control. If they can't afford to feed the kids they obviously cannot afford to buy birth control. I am not suggesting forcing them to get birth control or sterilization. Yes, they could be temporarily unemployed or any other bad things can happen. Some might  not want to get pregnant again and would embrace some help. My Grandma had 6 living children and 4 children that died in childhood. She was a farm wife and these people were like the grapes of wrath. I am sure if someone suggested birth control back in her day she might have said yes. My point is why bring more kids into this world if you cannot provide for them.
Free and easily accessible birth control is a fantastic idea. That is how other developed countries have teen pregnancy and abortion rates that are so much lower than ours. Go lobby your representative to fund Planned Parenthood. :) Many studies have shown over and over that having control over your fertility is a necessary part of economic development that lifts countries out of poverty. Iím not sure why the US is so slow to get that message.

Anecdotally: I remember doing this little school project in high school where I interviewed some neighbors on the topic of providing condoms in schools. I remember in particular some people responding that they didnít support it because they felt it would encourage sex (never mind the data day otherwise). Skip to my year in France as an exchange student where a fellow friend needed birth control and sent me (the city dweller) to some random gov office to ask for condoms. The lady just opened up a desk drawer and handed me a bunch, no questions asked. Take a guess as to which country has a higher teen pregnancy rate. The year I was there was the year France made the morning after pill available over-the-counter. That was LAST CENTURY people.

Lol, no encouragement needed. All high school boys need is enough courage to ask and someone to say yes.

runbikerun

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 272
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20407 on: June 22, 2018, 01:41:43 PM »
Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control.

Today in "I have a viciously mean-spirited opinion that's completely divorced from reality and history and I'm fucking well proud of it"...

What the absolute hell? You seriously think that encouraging the sterilisation of poor people is a sound public policy, rather than the first step on the road to a totalitarian dystopia? You don't think there's any problem with the state effectively pushing for the sterilisation of disadvantaged minorities?

Paul der Krake

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4271
  • Age: 10
  • Location: us-west-2
  • Bot - Do Not Reply
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20408 on: June 22, 2018, 01:51:57 PM »
In my country the teen pregnancy rate is about 2 per 1000 girls and the teen abortion rate is 4 per 1000 (both abortions and contraception are completely free for minors) .

These number don't add up. Is the actual "I got pregnant" rate 6 per 1000? And 4 of those 6 decide to abort?
Why wouldn't it add up? In the rest of the developed world, the pill costs $1-3 per month, and people who have outdated religious views don't get to control school boards. Teen pregnancy is mostly an American thing, with the UK a distant second.

FIRE@50

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 311
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Maryland
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20409 on: June 22, 2018, 01:57:48 PM »
In my country the teen pregnancy rate is about 2 per 1000 girls and the teen abortion rate is 4 per 1000 (both abortions and contraception are completely free for minors) .

These number don't add up. Is the actual "I got pregnant" rate 6 per 1000? And 4 of those 6 decide to abort?
Why wouldn't it add up? In the rest of the developed world, the pill costs $1-3 per month, and people who have outdated religious views don't get to control school boards. Teen pregnancy is mostly an American thing, with the UK a distant second.
You aren't seeing it. 2 pregnancies can't result in 4 abortions.

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Age: 29
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20410 on: June 22, 2018, 02:01:02 PM »
Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control.

Today in "I have a viciously mean-spirited opinion that's completely divorced from reality and history and I'm fucking well proud of it"...

What the absolute hell? You seriously think that encouraging the sterilisation of poor people is a sound public policy, rather than the first step on the road to a totalitarian dystopia? You don't think there's any problem with the state effectively pushing for the sterilisation of disadvantaged minorities?

At the very least the suggestion is not mean spirited, even if you think the results of such a policy would be negative.

I think people make connections between the word sterilization and the terrible ways forced sterilization was used in the past. Somewhat like the connections often made with communism and socialism. Not to mention it was sterilization OR birth control. Would you feel better if they said free vasectomys, tubal occlusions, or more temporary forms of birth control?

Miss Piggy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1224
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20411 on: June 22, 2018, 02:04:18 PM »
In my country the teen pregnancy rate is about 2 per 1000 girls and the teen abortion rate is 4 per 1000 (both abortions and contraception are completely free for minors) .

These number don't add up. Is the actual "I got pregnant" rate 6 per 1000? And 4 of those 6 decide to abort?
Why wouldn't it add up? In the rest of the developed world, the pill costs $1-3 per month, and people who have outdated religious views don't get to control school boards. Teen pregnancy is mostly an American thing, with the UK a distant second.
You aren't seeing it. 2 pregnancies can't result in 4 abortions.

Regardless, those numbers are amazingly low, so if they are even close to accurate, somebody is doing something right.

FIRE@50

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 311
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Maryland
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20412 on: June 22, 2018, 02:07:09 PM »
The temporary use of social services should not mean that you need to be sterilized. Can you really not see that?

Frugalroogal

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20413 on: June 22, 2018, 02:31:12 PM »
How is she paying for the IVF? Credit cards?

I can only assume that there would be some type of debt to pay for the IVF. She said that it has cost her around $50 000 in IVF to get to the point of 1 child and 1 viable pregnancy. She does have a reasonably high paying job but not enough to cover that kind of expenditure as well as daycare fees.

In the throes of morning sickness yesterday she said she had to go and buy something nice for the baby so she didnít totally regret her decision so off she went to the shops to buy baby clothes, although she has plenty of clothes from the first time around. In the afternoon she mentioned that she may have to break up with her new boyfriend (who lives with her and her daughter) and get him to move out of the house to reduce the household income to be eligible for more government benefits. Not sure if this was the morning sickness talking or if she was serious.

A note to say this example is not from the USA (itís from Australia) so we donít get a food program at school (that I know of) but we do have a generous social security system.

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
  • Age: 29
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20414 on: June 22, 2018, 02:36:59 PM »
How is she paying for the IVF? Credit cards?

I can only assume that there would be some type of debt to pay for the IVF. She said that it has cost her around $50 000 in IVF to get to the point of 1 child and 1 viable pregnancy. She does have a reasonably high paying job but not enough to cover that kind of expenditure as well as daycare fees.

In the throes of morning sickness yesterday she said she had to go and buy something nice for the baby so she didnít totally regret her decision so off she went to the shops to buy baby clothes, although she has plenty of clothes from the first time around. In the afternoon she mentioned that she may have to break up with her new boyfriend (who lives with her and her daughter) and get him to move out of the house to reduce the household income to be eligible for more government benefits. Not sure if this was the morning sickness talking or if she was serious.

A note to say this example is not from the USA (itís from Australia) so we donít get a food program at school (that I know of) but we do have a generous social security system.

The boyfriend isn't gone yet? She chose a donor over him (maybe there were complications I'm not aware of?) but more importantly she decided to get pregnant against his wishes. That seems incredibly selfish if you're planning a future together.

Imma

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1152
  • Location: Europe
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20415 on: June 22, 2018, 02:50:47 PM »
In my country the teen pregnancy rate is about 2 per 1000 girls and the teen abortion rate is 4 per 1000 (both abortions and contraception are completely free for minors) .

These number don't add up. Is the actual "I got pregnant" rate 6 per 1000? And 4 of those 6 decide to abort?
Why wouldn't it add up? In the rest of the developed world, the pill costs $1-3 per month, and people who have outdated religious views don't get to control school boards. Teen pregnancy is mostly an American thing, with the UK a distant second.
You aren't seeing it. 2 pregnancies can't result in 4 abortions.

Regardless, those numbers are amazingly low, so if they are even close to accurate, somebody is doing something right.

Maybe I should have typed 'teen birth rate' and 'teen abortion rate'. Yes, 6 out of 1000 girls get pregnant, 4 out of those 6 choose to abort. Most of those abortions are very early in the pregnancy and are medical (pill) rather than surgical abortions. The morning after pill is available over the counter.

I could not find any recent official sources for my numbers, only news articles in Dutch and some in English: https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2017/12/the-netherlands-has-lowest-rate-of-teenage-mothers-in-the-eu/  the outdated article on wikipedia gives 5 per 1000 in 2002 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_teenage_pregnancy#Netherlands  . But even if I'm off by 1 or 2 girls per 1000, the facts show that education and contraception is a winning combination with free abortion as an emergency option in case things go wrong. Also, Dutch parents are quite liberal. That doesn't mean they are comfortable with their children being promiscuous, but they accept that older teenagers (16+) with a steady girlfriend / boyfriend are going to be interested in having sex at some point. They will have "the talk" and make sure their kids have access to contraception, and generally allow their children some privacy and to have their boyfriend/girlfriend stay the night.

In my personal experience, girls who fall pregnant are often from strict Christian backgrounds and are supported by their own family and the father's family (and generally get married). The simple reason why these girls fall pregnant? They don't have as much access to sexual education as their peers do and their parents restrict them in seeing their boyfriend. They end up having sex in a back alley or at a friend's party, they are unprepared, don't have condoms and don't want the pill in case their parents find it.

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1994
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20416 on: June 22, 2018, 02:53:29 PM »
I teach at a school where every student gets free breakfast and lunch under the community eligibility provision of the federal free lunch program. In this small, high poverty, rural community, school is the nexus of social services. Students who attend the after school program, which lasts until 6 p.m. get free dinner as well. Quite a few students get snack packs for the weekends/breaks as well. Lunch is also available for much of the summer. Some of the families are victims of truly tragic circumstances and some of their own bad choices, but I am grateful that no child will starve due to circumstances beyond their control.
Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control. Offer free birth control. Offer job training. Whatever it takes to get these people on their feet to provide for their families.

Exactly which problems that are serious enough to make a parent unable to provide for his or her children do you believe can be solved by group therapy (i.e. sitting in a circle and making mouth noises)?

(pause while Grim sets Ye Old Sarcasm Generator to 11)

  • Multiple sclerosis?
  • Cancer?
  • A traumatic brain injury due to having to been the victim of a violent crime?
  • A stroke?
  • Amputation?
  • Paralysis due to having been shot in the neck while sleeping in one's own bed because someone did a drive-by shooting at the wrong house?
  • A crippled body due to having been run over by a texting driver?
  • An extreme chemical imbalance in the brain known as bipolar disorder or major depression?
  • A chemical dependency so strong that the parent goes into convulsions without access to the drug?
  • Incarceration? Will group therapy magically allow a person serving a 15-year sentence to be in two places at once?
  • How about the need to care for an aging or dying family member such as a parent who develops Parkinson's or Alzheimer's, or a child who turns out to have autism? I bet group therapy will just magically make all those other crushing time commitments disappear so that the person who has them will be fully available to work and earn money instead of being overwhelmed by caregiving duties because other long-term care options simply do not exist.
  • Oh, I know-- maybe group therapy can compensate for an unwanted pregnancy that is so high-risk that the person who has it is unable to get out of bed for several weeks.
  • Wait, wait, I've got it now. Group therapy is for the remaining adult(s) in the family, if there are any, who are compensating for or caring for a family member who is in one of the previous categories on this list.

(Sarcasm off)

Seriously, though. Bad things happen to good people all the time, and when they do, they take out the entire family. When the stress is that intense and that ongoing, "therapy" is simply one more time and money sink on top of umpteen others.

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data", but the above points are things that have happened to people I've personally met or been in contact with. Having a family member who is sick or who has special needs monopolizes a family's resources and can create a deteriorating situation where more and more people snap under the pressure and just can't deal. Community based support, even if it's just a question of making sure the kids are fed, frees up the remaining adults and their resources to help ensure that (a) the kids survive, and (b) the family gets back on its feet.

Are there families that rely on social services for generations in a row? Yes, there are. Yet the system wasn't put in place for them so much as for the people who would otherwise be the victims of theft or worse when desperate people start to do desperate things. The system is in place to help the average family or individual who is down on his or her luck or who has made some bad decisions and is climbing out of the hole he or she dug. Most people who use food benefits do it temporarily. The presence of some people who do otherwise, or who abuse the system, does not mean the entire system is worthless or without merit.

Frugalroogal

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20417 on: June 22, 2018, 03:02:47 PM »
How is she paying for the IVF? Credit cards?

I can only assume that there would be some type of debt to pay for the IVF. She said that it has cost her around $50 000 in IVF to get to the point of 1 child and 1 viable pregnancy. She does have a reasonably high paying job but not enough to cover that kind of expenditure as well as daycare fees.

In the throes of morning sickness yesterday she said she had to go and buy something nice for the baby so she didnít totally regret her decision so off she went to the shops to buy baby clothes, although she has plenty of clothes from the first time around. In the afternoon she mentioned that she may have to break up with her new boyfriend (who lives with her and her daughter) and get him to move out of the house to reduce the household income to be eligible for more government benefits. Not sure if this was the morning sickness talking or if she was serious.

A note to say this example is not from the USA (itís from Australia) so we donít get a food program at school (that I know of) but we do have a generous social security system.

The boyfriend isn't gone yet? She chose a donor over him (maybe there were complications I'm not aware of?) but more importantly she decided to get pregnant against his wishes. That seems incredibly selfish if you're planning a future together.

She chose a donor over him as he didnít want any more children. They havenít broken up but if it was me I wouldnít have hung around after she decided to have more children. I donít think they talked about the IVF in great detail before she got pregnant as he was apparently quite surprised that it worked and asked if he would be put on the birth certificate as the father. To his apparent great relief the answer was no.

runbikerun

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 272
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20418 on: June 22, 2018, 03:13:59 PM »
Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control.

Today in "I have a viciously mean-spirited opinion that's completely divorced from reality and history and I'm fucking well proud of it"...

What the absolute hell? You seriously think that encouraging the sterilisation of poor people is a sound public policy, rather than the first step on the road to a totalitarian dystopia? You don't think there's any problem with the state effectively pushing for the sterilisation of disadvantaged minorities?

At the very least the suggestion is not mean spirited, even if you think the results of such a policy would be negative.

I think people make connections between the word sterilization and the terrible ways forced sterilization was used in the past. Somewhat like the connections often made with communism and socialism. Not to mention it was sterilization OR birth control. Would you feel better if they said free vasectomys, tubal occlusions, or more temporary forms of birth control?

Let's not engage in this muddying of waters. I made it perfectly clear that what I found unconscionable in the post was the argument that poor people be "encouraged to be sterilized". I stand by my assessment: thinking poor people should be encouraged to be sterilised is viciously mean-spirited and based around the idea that the creation of human life should, to some extent, be reserved for the wealthy. Of course people make connections between the word and the terrible ways sterilisation was used in the past - because as a species, we have a perfect batting record on state-endorsed sterilisation leading to awful and hateful outcomes. Ignoring that ignominious history and the wreckage of human lives it created is morally indefensible. At an absolute base minimum, anyone arguing for state-endorsed sterilisation should be starting off by acknowledging that horrific history and explaining exactly how their idea will avoid the pitfalls that every other case has led to - but we didn't even get that, just a casual suggestion that we sterilise poor people, as though that's a reasonable starting point for a policy discussion.

OtherJen

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 491
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20419 on: June 22, 2018, 04:15:54 PM »
Jup. In my country the teen pregnancy rate is about 2 per 1000 girls and the teen abortion rate is 4 per 1000 (both abortions and contraception are completely free for minors) . According to wikipedia there are American states where the teen birth rate is over 60 per 1000, and in certain communities it is much, much higher. That's just insane.

Teenagers are going to experiment with sex, that's just the reality of life. Can anyone remember a time when abstinence worked? I am totally pro-choice, but I do believe we should try to get our abortion rate as low as we can, and the best way to prevent abortion is by offering reliable and affordable contraception.

Regarding the incidence of 60/1000: as an American, I believe it. I have a large extended family, and getting pregnant and becoming a single mom by age 21 seems to have become a rite of passage among many of my younger female cousins. They're all from conservative religious backgrounds, so they're exposed to plenty of the "no sex ed/birth control is evil/abortion is murder" trifecta. Clearly, that plan works super well. [/sarcasm]

AnnaGrowsAMustache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 593
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20420 on: June 22, 2018, 04:21:28 PM »
Wow, wow, wow.
I know mustachians generally like to think that wealth is entirely based on choices, but that's not actually the case. There are many reasons why a family can be in financial trouble. Like significant and expensive health issues. To suggest that someone struggling AT THAT TIME (because lets remember that you're only seeing a single point in someones' life) should be steralised is kind of sickening. Do you want to live in a society where no one gets to fuck up? Where no one gets to learn and grow, but instead gets punished? I don't.

OtherJen

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 491
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20421 on: June 22, 2018, 04:28:48 PM »
Wow, wow, wow.
I know mustachians generally like to think that wealth is entirely based on choices, but that's not actually the case. There are many reasons why a family can be in financial trouble. Like significant and expensive health issues. To suggest that someone struggling AT THAT TIME (because lets remember that you're only seeing a single point in someones' life) should be steralised is kind of sickening. Do you want to live in a society where no one gets to fuck up? Where no one gets to learn and grow, but instead gets punished? I don't.

This. Especially considering the bullshit coming out of the US government right now.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 593
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20422 on: June 22, 2018, 05:01:50 PM »
Wow, wow, wow.
I know mustachians generally like to think that wealth is entirely based on choices, but that's not actually the case. There are many reasons why a family can be in financial trouble. Like significant and expensive health issues. To suggest that someone struggling AT THAT TIME (because lets remember that you're only seeing a single point in someones' life) should be steralised is kind of sickening. Do you want to live in a society where no one gets to fuck up? Where no one gets to learn and grow, but instead gets punished? I don't.

This. Especially considering the bullshit coming out of the US government right now.

I was going to mention that. The moment someone says sickening, we all know what's being talked about, right? Maybe they do want to live in that kind of society??? Pretty glad I live on the other side of the planet, frankly.

Sibley

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3132
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Chicago, IL
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20423 on: June 22, 2018, 08:51:46 PM »
Free and easily accessible birth control is a fantastic idea. That is how other developed countries have teen pregnancy and abortion rates that are so much lower than ours. Go lobby your representative to fund Planned Parenthood. :) Many studies have shown over and over that having control over your fertility is a necessary part of economic development that lifts countries out of poverty. Iím not sure why the US is so slow to get that message.

It's really quite simple. There is a segment of the population that would greatly prefer that women be at home, raising children and taking care of the house. Giving women control over childbearing blows that out of the water. And that doesn't fit in their mindset of women being inferior to men.

Hula Hoop

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 682
  • Location: Italy
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20424 on: June 23, 2018, 03:54:03 AM »
Free and easily accessible birth control is a fantastic idea. That is how other developed countries have teen pregnancy and abortion rates that are so much lower than ours. Go lobby your representative to fund Planned Parenthood. :) Many studies have shown over and over that having control over your fertility is a necessary part of economic development that lifts countries out of poverty. Iím not sure why the US is so slow to get that message.

It's really quite simple. There is a segment of the population that would greatly prefer that women be at home, raising children and taking care of the house. Giving women control over childbearing blows that out of the water. And that doesn't fit in their mindset of women being inferior to men.

Sad but true.  Also a lot of people are in denial that young unmarried people have sex and they consider such sexual activity to be sinful.  My kids are young, but when the time comes I plan to make sure that they have access to birth control and are educated about how to use it.

MarciaB

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 407
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Oregon
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20425 on: June 23, 2018, 04:27:36 AM »
How is she paying for the IVF? Credit cards?

I can only assume that there would be some type of debt to pay for the IVF. She said that it has cost her around $50 000 in IVF to get to the point of 1 child and 1 viable pregnancy. She does have a reasonably high paying job but not enough to cover that kind of expenditure as well as daycare fees.

In the throes of morning sickness yesterday she said she had to go and buy something nice for the baby so she didnít totally regret her decision so off she went to the shops to buy baby clothes, although she has plenty of clothes from the first time around. In the afternoon she mentioned that she may have to break up with her new boyfriend (who lives with her and her daughter) and get him to move out of the house to reduce the household income to be eligible for more government benefits. Not sure if this was the morning sickness talking or if she was serious.

A note to say this example is not from the USA (itís from Australia) so we donít get a food program at school (that I know of) but we do have a generous social security system.

The boyfriend isn't gone yet? She chose a donor over him (maybe there were complications I'm not aware of?) but more importantly she decided to get pregnant against his wishes. That seems incredibly selfish if you're planning a future together.

She chose a donor over him as he didnít want any more children. They havenít broken up but if it was me I wouldnít have hung around after she decided to have more children. I donít think they talked about the IVF in great detail before she got pregnant as he was apparently quite surprised that it worked and asked if he would be put on the birth certificate as the father. To his apparent great relief the answer was no.

A quick derail - what does get put on the birth certificate if the father was an anonymous sperm donor (with a guarantee of privacy)?

Imma

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1152
  • Location: Europe
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20426 on: June 23, 2018, 04:34:21 AM »
How is she paying for the IVF? Credit cards?

I can only assume that there would be some type of debt to pay for the IVF. She said that it has cost her around $50 000 in IVF to get to the point of 1 child and 1 viable pregnancy. She does have a reasonably high paying job but not enough to cover that kind of expenditure as well as daycare fees.

In the throes of morning sickness yesterday she said she had to go and buy something nice for the baby so she didnít totally regret her decision so off she went to the shops to buy baby clothes, although she has plenty of clothes from the first time around. In the afternoon she mentioned that she may have to break up with her new boyfriend (who lives with her and her daughter) and get him to move out of the house to reduce the household income to be eligible for more government benefits. Not sure if this was the morning sickness talking or if she was serious.

A note to say this example is not from the USA (itís from Australia) so we donít get a food program at school (that I know of) but we do have a generous social security system.

The boyfriend isn't gone yet? She chose a donor over him (maybe there were complications I'm not aware of?) but more importantly she decided to get pregnant against his wishes. That seems incredibly selfish if you're planning a future together.

She chose a donor over him as he didnít want any more children. They havenít broken up but if it was me I wouldnít have hung around after she decided to have more children. I donít think they talked about the IVF in great detail before she got pregnant as he was apparently quite surprised that it worked and asked if he would be put on the birth certificate as the father. To his apparent great relief the answer was no.

A quick derail - what does get put on the birth certificate if the father was an anonymous sperm donor (with a guarantee of privacy)?

I guess it's just left blank / says father: unknown?

availablelight

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 19
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20427 on: June 23, 2018, 08:45:48 AM »
Coworkerís baby is turning one. They are spending $300 on an 8-inch cake. And holding the party at a restaurant. I doubt the baby will remember any of it.

Such spending seems primitive to me, a sacrifice made in fear with the hopes of pleasing the gods. Sacrifice enough, then you'll have perfection and be blessed in all areas of your life. It's like a belief in magic.

Not to mention they'll also be an annoyance to everyone else at the restaurant when they get treated to a probably screaming baby who has no business or desire to be there.

Linda_Norway

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3232
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20428 on: June 26, 2018, 03:09:30 AM »
Coworker: All cash transactions are criminal.

Same coworker: I don't buy anything on Finn (the Norwegian version of Graig's list). Everything is stolen goods there.
Me: I buy and sell there all the time and I am honest.

Same coworker: I told my children they should sell their (old) bicycles on Finn. They can keep the money from the sales. But my children are not interested.
Me (thinking): Spoiled brats, those children.

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1994
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20429 on: June 26, 2018, 07:45:10 AM »
Coworkerís baby is turning one. They are spending $300 on an 8-inch cake. And holding the party at a restaurant. I doubt the baby will remember any of it.

Such spending seems primitive to me, a sacrifice made in fear with the hopes of pleasing the gods. Sacrifice enough, then you'll have perfection and be blessed in all areas of your life. It's like a belief in magic.

Not to mention they'll also be an annoyance to everyone else at the restaurant when they get treated to a probably screaming baby who has no business or desire to be there.

One of the many reasons I hate restauranting and avoid eating in public. In the home, screaming and tantrums are seldom a problem even with the tiniest kids, because there are so many ways of making the child be comfortable. A parent can always nip out to another room to do a diaper change, a distraction of some kind, whip out a boob, call a pet over for an emergency pup-snuggle, or even put the child down for a nap in an environment that isn't a sensory overload.

Of course, there are establishments that specialize in children's parties. Maybe, if there are enough kid guests, they might have the party there. It sounds horrific but it can actually be kind of fun.

Swish

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 58
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Canada
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20430 on: June 26, 2018, 09:07:47 AM »
CW: Life sucks
Me: oh why is that?
CW: I totaled my car and the insurance company is paying me out less than I owe.
Me: How long will it take to fix that?
CW: Well I can pay out the loan from savings but then I need a new car. There is a lease I can get on an SUV. Its only $44k and the payment is $430 per month with a $22k buyout in 5 years.
Me: that sounds pretty expensive. Why don't you just ride your bike for the summer to work and then save some money to buy a used car. It would take off a lot of pressure.
CW: LOL oh your funny. Ride my bike. Like I am poor.
Me: I ride my bike most days in the summer or walk it is quite nice.
CW: ..... we couldn't survive without two cars, I'd be all sweaty, wah-wah lots of other excuses.


Dragonswan

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 254
  • Location: Between realms
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20431 on: June 26, 2018, 10:48:13 AM »
Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control.

Today in "I have a viciously mean-spirited opinion that's completely divorced from reality and history and I'm fucking well proud of it"...

What the absolute hell? You seriously think that encouraging the sterilisation of poor people is a sound public policy, rather than the first step on the road to a totalitarian dystopia? You don't think there's any problem with the state effectively pushing for the sterilisation of disadvantaged minorities?
Oh for heaven's sake.   No one wants poor people to get sterilized.  We need them to fight the wars that protect the power and wealth of the wealthy.  And when they aren't needed to fight, there are menial jobs that need to be done. /s

LennStar

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1039
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20432 on: June 26, 2018, 02:11:22 PM »
Oh for heaven's sake.   No one wants poor people to get sterilized.  We need them to fight the wars that protect the power and wealth of the wealthy.  And when they aren't needed to fight, there are menial jobs that need to be done. /s

Only as long as you can prevent the poor from getting rid of padly paid menial jobs.

I mean, just look at the socialist nordic states! Public toilets that clean themselves, no toll booth people - who when no those are the potential cannon fodder?

87tweetybirds

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 71
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20433 on: June 27, 2018, 04:33:17 AM »
Slightly off topic, but since so many were railing against the idea of offering sterilization or birth control(I read it as not forcing sterilization, but offering it as an option for those who do not want (more) children), Anecdotally; After a distant family member got pregnant with her 8th pregnancy (5 abortions, 2 living children +pregnancy) at 22, and her significant other showed his true colors as a piece of sh** blaming her for the pregnancy (like he had no part in it):/, becoming violent and threatening her life and that of her 2 kids, her father and stepmother took them in and her stepmother pulled her aside and had a gentle discussion, "do you want more children? You haven't really wanted any of these pregnancies, your contraceptives aren't working for you, so why don't you consider getting your tubes tied." And offered to pay for it if she chose to do so. She chose to and I hope that with no more unplanned pregnancies hopefully she can get out of the rut she's been in. No one forced her to, it was her choice, but the option was provided whereas without her stepmother offering to foot the bill she'd still be using contraceptives on the government's dime(planned parenthood or public health provided), which for her obviously haven't worked well.

Dragonswan

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 254
  • Location: Between realms
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20434 on: June 27, 2018, 06:30:34 AM »
Oh for heaven's sake.   No one wants poor people to get sterilized.  We need them to fight the wars that protect the power and wealth of the wealthy.  And when they aren't needed to fight, there are menial jobs that need to be done. /s

Only as long as you can prevent the poor from getting rid of padly paid menial jobs.

I mean, just look at the socialist nordic states! Public toilets that clean themselves, no toll booth people - who when no those are the potential cannon fodder?
Precisely, in cultures where there is a workable humane system for birth control and related edication, you have to start automating to make ends meet.  But here in the US, we've got at least a couple more generations before we actually have to face the decision of automating or doing it *gasp* ourselves.

Teachstache

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 157
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20435 on: June 27, 2018, 06:53:15 AM »
Wow, wow, wow.
I know mustachians generally like to think that wealth is entirely based on choices, but that's not actually the case. There are many reasons why a family can be in financial trouble. Like significant and expensive health issues. To suggest that someone struggling AT THAT TIME (because lets remember that you're only seeing a single point in someones' life) should be steralised is kind of sickening. Do you want to live in a society where no one gets to fuck up? Where no one gets to learn and grow, but instead gets punished? I don't.

Agreed 100%.

enFuego

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Location: Northeast HCOL
  • Somewhere between On Fire and FIRE...
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20436 on: June 27, 2018, 09:36:53 AM »
I've enjoyed all 400+ pages of these.  Finally have a worthy one...

Me: (Shows pics of a recent low-budget, low maintenance backyard landscaping project I did myself)  We talked about putting in an above ground pool it but didn't think we'd get enough use out of it and don't want to maintain it so we did this instead.
CW: I'd like to put in a pool in our back yard, it'd be great with the kids.  But we have the kitchen project going on (translation: replacing granite countertops with Quartz countertops + wine fridge + $4000 stove...) so the budget is tight right now.
Me: You could always put in an above ground pool.  They're not that expensive.  It'll last you till your kids outgrow it then you take it down.
CW: Well my backyard isn't flat like yours so I'd need to hire an excavator to level out the yard.  So you're talking $10k right there.  So I may as well just do an inground.
Me: Oh I see (not really - $10k for excavation is a high estimate and an inground with concrete, fence and landscaping is more like $50k+).
CW: Plus, you know, I'm surrounded by judgy people. (shrugs) [That is an exact quote]
Me: (nods and ends conversation)

solon

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1355
  • Age: 1817
  • Location: CO
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20437 on: June 27, 2018, 09:40:41 AM »
Have you ever noticed that the most judgmental people are the ones who complain about others being judgmental?

Is it judgemental of me to say this? :)

dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8065
  • Registered member
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20438 on: June 27, 2018, 10:23:29 AM »
Have you ever noticed that the most judgmental people are the ones who complain about others being judgmental?

Is it judgemental of me to say this? :)

Yes, people who complain are THE WORST

Threshkin

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 872
  • Location: Colorado
    • My Journal
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20439 on: June 27, 2018, 03:39:17 PM »
Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control.

Today in "I have a viciously mean-spirited opinion that's completely divorced from reality and history and I'm fucking well proud of it"...

What the absolute hell? You seriously think that encouraging the sterilisation of poor people is a sound public policy, rather than the first step on the road to a totalitarian dystopia? You don't think there's any problem with the state effectively pushing for the sterilisation of disadvantaged minorities?

At the very least the suggestion is not mean spirited, even if you think the results of such a policy would be negative.

I think people make connections between the word sterilization and the terrible ways forced sterilization was used in the past. Somewhat like the connections often made with communism and socialism. Not to mention it was sterilization OR birth control. Would you feel better if they said free vasectomys, tubal occlusions, or more temporary forms of birth control?

Let's not engage in this muddying of waters. I made it perfectly clear that what I found unconscionable in the post was the argument that poor people be "encouraged to be sterilized". I stand by my assessment: thinking poor people should be encouraged to be sterilised is viciously mean-spirited and based around the idea that the creation of human life should, to some extent, be reserved for the wealthy. Of course people make connections between the word and the terrible ways sterilisation was used in the past - because as a species, we have a perfect batting record on state-endorsed sterilisation leading to awful and hateful outcomes. Ignoring that ignominious history and the wreckage of human lives it created is morally indefensible. At an absolute base minimum, anyone arguing for state-endorsed sterilisation should be starting off by acknowledging that horrific history and explaining exactly how their idea will avoid the pitfalls that every other case has led to - but we didn't even get that, just a casual suggestion that we sterilise poor people, as though that's a reasonable starting point for a policy discussion.

The idea of encouraged sterilization/abortion for the poor has been tried before with horrifying results.  Look up the history of Eugenics.  The concept was very popular with celebrities at the time.  Unfortunately it became the foundation for both the Nazi genetic purification program and Planned Parenthood.  At least one of the two is (mostly) done.

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1994
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20440 on: June 27, 2018, 04:09:12 PM »
Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control.

Today in "I have a viciously mean-spirited opinion that's completely divorced from reality and history and I'm fucking well proud of it"...

What the absolute hell? You seriously think that encouraging the sterilisation of poor people is a sound public policy, rather than the first step on the road to a totalitarian dystopia? You don't think there's any problem with the state effectively pushing for the sterilisation of disadvantaged minorities?

At the very least the suggestion is not mean spirited, even if you think the results of such a policy would be negative.

I think people make connections between the word sterilization and the terrible ways forced sterilization was used in the past. Somewhat like the connections often made with communism and socialism. Not to mention it was sterilization OR birth control. Would you feel better if they said free vasectomys, tubal occlusions, or more temporary forms of birth control?

Let's not engage in this muddying of waters. I made it perfectly clear that what I found unconscionable in the post was the argument that poor people be "encouraged to be sterilized". I stand by my assessment: thinking poor people should be encouraged to be sterilised is viciously mean-spirited and based around the idea that the creation of human life should, to some extent, be reserved for the wealthy. Of course people make connections between the word and the terrible ways sterilisation was used in the past - because as a species, we have a perfect batting record on state-endorsed sterilisation leading to awful and hateful outcomes. Ignoring that ignominious history and the wreckage of human lives it created is morally indefensible. At an absolute base minimum, anyone arguing for state-endorsed sterilisation should be starting off by acknowledging that horrific history and explaining exactly how their idea will avoid the pitfalls that every other case has led to - but we didn't even get that, just a casual suggestion that we sterilise poor people, as though that's a reasonable starting point for a policy discussion.

The idea of encouraged sterilization/abortion for the poor has been tried before with horrifying results.  Look up the history of Eugenics.  The concept was very popular with celebrities at the time.  Unfortunately it became the foundation for both the Nazi genetic purification program and Planned Parenthood.  At least one of the two is (mostly) done.

Hopefully Planned Parenthood will never be "done", until there's either a functional national health care system or some other way for women in Yankistan to obtain medical care.

Although Planned Parenthood was indeed started by a small-minded eugenicist, it turned into something that's saved countless lives by allowing access to reproductive medical care for both men and women that would not otherwise have been available. Being able to prevent unwanted pregnancies, including by ending them, is a key factor in health and economic participation. That's especially true in developing countries like Yankistan where there's no social safety net except for the upper-middle class and the entitlement classes. With little or no medical or maternal leave available for a pregnancy that goes bad, and often no way to pay for the medical expenses related to birthing an unwanted fetus or for the lifelong health complications that can sometimes go with it, the only way to stay employed and earning an income is to stay healthy. The worst thing you can do in a country like Yankistan is to get sick or develop a medical problem. Pregnancy is a major, but preventable, medical problem. Accordingly, both men and women do their best to remain in a non-pregnant condition until such time as they're ready and able to become parents.

CindyBS

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 328
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20441 on: June 27, 2018, 04:46:02 PM »
Wow, wow, wow.
I know mustachians generally like to think that wealth is entirely based on choices, but that's not actually the case. There are many reasons why a family can be in financial trouble. Like significant and expensive health issues. To suggest that someone struggling AT THAT TIME (because lets remember that you're only seeing a single point in someones' life) should be steralised is kind of sickening. Do you want to live in a society where no one gets to fuck up? Where no one gets to learn and grow, but instead gets punished? I don't.

YES!  100%.   

I spent more than 50 days living in the Pediatric ICU with my son last year.  He spent more than 170 days (including the 50 ICU days) inpatient in the hospital in the 18 months that ended Dec. 2017. 

My son got cancer at age 13.  It is like a bomb going off in your life.   We had the financial means for me to quit my job at the exact moment our expenses went sky high, and have been able to weather the storm without any welfare or financial support but that is because of a lot of factors, including the fact we are in our 40's with decades of savings.  25 year old parents of a 2 year old with cancer would probably struggle much more, even if they worked in the same industry and had the same family support.

Is generational poverty and issue? yep.  Could people be making better choices? yep.  Are their societal factors at play in all this? yep.

However, I encourage anyone who believes this "what happens to you is all choices" bullcrap to spend 1 day in a pediatric ICU.  Hear the screams of kids.  Know that some of them could be dead tomorrow and too many will die there.   My friend's teenage son just died of cancer this month.     

What do you think having a sick kid does financially to a family?  Especially when one parent has to stop working - often for years - to take care of a kid.   

Threshkin

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 872
  • Location: Colorado
    • My Journal
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20442 on: June 27, 2018, 05:19:20 PM »
Why don't they start requiring the parents to get group therapy to resolve whatever problems they have so they can feed their children. What kind of parents can't provide meals and if they can't, they should be encouraged to be sterilized or use birth control.

Today in "I have a viciously mean-spirited opinion that's completely divorced from reality and history and I'm fucking well proud of it"...

What the absolute hell? You seriously think that encouraging the sterilisation of poor people is a sound public policy, rather than the first step on the road to a totalitarian dystopia? You don't think there's any problem with the state effectively pushing for the sterilisation of disadvantaged minorities?

At the very least the suggestion is not mean spirited, even if you think the results of such a policy would be negative.

I think people make connections between the word sterilization and the terrible ways forced sterilization was used in the past. Somewhat like the connections often made with communism and socialism. Not to mention it was sterilization OR birth control. Would you feel better if they said free vasectomys, tubal occlusions, or more temporary forms of birth control?

Let's not engage in this muddying of waters. I made it perfectly clear that what I found unconscionable in the post was the argument that poor people be "encouraged to be sterilized". I stand by my assessment: thinking poor people should be encouraged to be sterilised is viciously mean-spirited and based around the idea that the creation of human life should, to some extent, be reserved for the wealthy. Of course people make connections between the word and the terrible ways sterilisation was used in the past - because as a species, we have a perfect batting record on state-endorsed sterilisation leading to awful and hateful outcomes. Ignoring that ignominious history and the wreckage of human lives it created is morally indefensible. At an absolute base minimum, anyone arguing for state-endorsed sterilisation should be starting off by acknowledging that horrific history and explaining exactly how their idea will avoid the pitfalls that every other case has led to - but we didn't even get that, just a casual suggestion that we sterilise poor people, as though that's a reasonable starting point for a policy discussion.

The idea of encouraged sterilization/abortion for the poor has been tried before with horrifying results.  Look up the history of Eugenics.  The concept was very popular with celebrities at the time.  Unfortunately it became the foundation for both the Nazi genetic purification program and Planned Parenthood.  At least one of the two is (mostly) done.

Hopefully Planned Parenthood will never be "done", until there's either a functional national health care system or some other way for women in Yankistan to obtain medical care.

Although Planned Parenthood was indeed started by a small-minded eugenicist, it turned into something that's saved countless lives by allowing access to reproductive medical care for both men and women that would not otherwise have been available. Being able to prevent unwanted pregnancies, including by ending them, is a key factor in health and economic participation. That's especially true in developing countries like Yankistan where there's no social safety net except for the upper-middle class and the entitlement classes. With little or no medical or maternal leave available for a pregnancy that goes bad, and often no way to pay for the medical expenses related to birthing an unwanted fetus or for the lifelong health complications that can sometimes go with it, the only way to stay employed and earning an income is to stay healthy. The worst thing you can do in a country like Yankistan is to get sick or develop a medical problem. Pregnancy is a major, but preventable, medical problem. Accordingly, both men and women do their best to remain in a non-pregnant condition until such time as they're ready and able to become parents.

I expected that part of my response would be controversial.  Discussion and disagreement is good because it helps us all learn.

It is interesting to me that the founder of PP was actually opposed to abortion except as a last resort.  Her primary focus was on birth control education.  She focused on the poor because she felt they were the most negatively affected by unwanted pregnancy.  But she also felt that terminating life through abortion should be avoided if possible.  At the time, any form of birth control or education was illegal.  She was right in advocating for this to be changed.  Today birth control and sex education are generally easily accessible and inexpensive.  Unfortunately the fine organization she founded has morphed into the largest abortion provider in the US.  I disagree with the position that PP is the only source for women's health services in the US.

I am a strong supporter of sex education and birth control.  I am less enamored with, but do not completely oppose, abortion because it terminates life.  Abortion is an appropriate option in some cases but it should be used judiciously.  Abortion is a surgical procedure with the real possibility of significant complications.  It is much better to prevent conception in the first place.

plainjane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1618
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20443 on: June 27, 2018, 06:31:50 PM »
Hopefully Planned Parenthood will never be "done", until there's either a functional national health care system or some other way for women in Yankistan to obtain medical care.
I disagree with the position that PP is the only source for women's health services in the US.

I am a strong supporter of sex education and birth control.  I am less enamored with, but do not completely oppose, abortion because it terminates life.  Abortion is an appropriate option in some cases but it should be used judiciously.  Abortion is a surgical procedure with the real possibility of significant complications.  It is much better to prevent conception in the first place.

I do not believe that the original poster said that PP is the only source for women's health services in the US. There are obviously other sources. The question is whether those sources are nearby, accessible & affordable.

I think the vast majority of people who support abortion being legally accessible would also prefer options are available to people who want to use them which prevent conception in the first place. Abortion of course is not just for unwanted pregnancies, but also for desired pregnancies which have medical complications.

monte0930

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 38
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20444 on: June 27, 2018, 06:46:59 PM »
One from this week: An older co-worker, 60s F, constantly complains about not being able to retire. The problem is she spends like crazy, here are just a few I've picked up on over the months. She has an $800 dollar blender that she has mentioned, among other high end kitchen gadgets. Of course hair and nail salon appointments are regularly scheduled (she has to keep up that unnatural hair color). Drives a new $40k+ SUV to work every day. Recently had $1000's of dollars of Italian furniture delivered to her house + plus a fancy chandelier (another $1000?). This is what finally pushed me over the edge, she already ones at least one dog, which she purchased from a breeder for $2k, and wait for it, is picking up ANOTHER $2k dog on Monday, which will be delivered by a "dog nanny" for the low price of $450! Of course she is taking the whole week off next week to welcome the new addition. Also, she has been at this job since 18 years old, minimum retirement age for full pension would have been abut 5 years ago. It's mind boggling.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 07:16:33 PM by monte0930 »

Swish

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 58
  • Age: 32
  • Location: Canada
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20445 on: June 28, 2018, 09:49:26 AM »
I've enjoyed all 400+ pages of these.  Finally have a worthy one...

Me: (Shows pics of a recent low-budget, low maintenance backyard landscaping project I did myself)  We talked about putting in an above ground pool it but didn't think we'd get enough use out of it and don't want to maintain it so we did this instead.
CW: I'd like to put in a pool in our back yard, it'd be great with the kids.  But we have the kitchen project going on (translation: replacing granite countertops with Quartz countertops + wine fridge + $4000 stove...) so the budget is tight right now.
Me: You could always put in an above ground pool.  They're not that expensive.  It'll last you till your kids outgrow it then you take it down.
CW: Well my backyard isn't flat like yours so I'd need to hire an excavator to level out the yard.  So you're talking $10k right there.  So I may as well just do an inground.
Me: Oh I see (not really - $10k for excavation is a high estimate and an inground with concrete, fence and landscaping is more like $50k+).
CW: Plus, you know, I'm surrounded by judgy people. (shrugs) [That is an exact quote]
Me: (nods and ends conversation)

This made my day :)

Today CW advised me he is buying fishing kayak for $4k. I made the mistake of being slightly excited. Oh I have a canoe its lots of fun I didn't know you did that sort of stuff? CW proceeds to tell me how he has never fished or boated really before, none of his friends do but he really likes the idea of this so he is going to try it out. The only reason he doesn't do it is because he doesn't own all the stuff. At this point it sunk in how much he was spending and I mentioned it might be prudent to rent a kayak first before he drops $4k on one. The rebuttal was this is a really great deal as its normally over $5k and he does not want to miss out. - Sadly I used to be able to relate to this kind of thinking. Now I just think SHIT his boat that needs a paddle costs more than my car.

tyrannostache

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 136
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20446 on: June 28, 2018, 12:20:45 PM »
I don't want to derail shame and comedy much further, but I have to weigh in here.

Hopefully Planned Parenthood will never be "done", until there's either a functional national health care system or some other way for women in Yankistan to obtain medical care.
I disagree with the position that PP is the only source for women's health services in the US.

I am a strong supporter of sex education and birth control.  I am less enamored with, but do not completely oppose, abortion because it terminates life.  Abortion is an appropriate option in some cases but it should be used judiciously.  Abortion is a surgical procedure with the real possibility of significant complications.  It is much better to prevent conception in the first place.

I do not believe that the original poster said that PP is the only source for women's health services in the US. There are obviously other sources. The question is whether those sources are nearby, accessible & affordable.

I think the vast majority of people who support abortion being legally accessible would also prefer options are available to people who want to use them which prevent conception in the first place. Abortion of course is not just for unwanted pregnancies, but also for desired pregnancies which have medical complications.
"Abortion should be used judiciously." Absolutely. And can we let individuals make that decision?

Let me tell you a story. My friend was pregnant with a desperately wanted second child. Several weeks in, she discovered that the fetus had stopped growing. Either she could wait for her body to do the work and risk serious infection, or take action. The doctor gave her the option of a d&c or prescription medication. She chose prescription, and went to pick it up that evening. So there she was, devastated, waiting in line at a busy Walgreens with her 5-year-old, trying to hold her shit together so as not to scare her daughter. And the pharmacist said he would not fill her prescription because of his personal conviction against abortion. She had wanted this child. She wanted to carry it to term. She's already grieving the loss of her pregnancy, and now this man's personal conviction is forcing her to jump through another set of hoops just to protect her health. There was no other pharmacist available to fill the prescription. They had to send it across town, and place the burden on my friend to figure out how she would get there. She did get the prescription the next morning from a different pharmacy, but not after suffering the indignity of being refused at her most vulnerable time.

Another story. My best friends in the world tried to get pregnant for 8 years. And finally, it happened. She was carrying a baby boy. She was thrilled. And then at 20 weeks, she discovered that he had unsurvivable birth defects (limb-body wall). She might be able carry him to term, but he definitely would not survive once delivered. There was no surgery to intervene, no way to save him. The couple was devastated. Since they live in a state with few restrictions, her own OB was able to perform the procedure, and she was able to grieve and recover quietly with minimal fuss. If she had lived in a state with restrictive abortion laws, she would have to go through a waiting period, an independent" ultrasound, would potentially have had to travel for hours to access a provider, would have had to walk through a wall of protesters with gory billboards spouting abuse at her.

Let's work to reduce the need for abortions by providing great birth control and sex education. Let's work to make sure all babies can be supported so that no one has to get an abortion for purely financial reasons. Let's be compassionate to those who need to access abortion services. And let's also remember that abortion is a medical procedure that saves women's lives.


Phew. OK. ANd now let's get back to ridiculing the non-frugal.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 12:23:23 PM by tyrannostache »

I'm a red panda

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6751
  • Location: United States
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20447 on: June 28, 2018, 12:43:27 PM »

Let me tell you a story. My friend was pregnant with a desperately wanted second child. Several weeks in, she discovered that the fetus had stopped growing. Either she could wait for her body to do the work and risk serious infection, or take action. The doctor gave her the option of a d&c or prescription medication. She chose prescription, and went to pick it up that evening. So there she was, devastated, waiting in line at a busy Walgreens with her 5-year-old, trying to hold her shit together so as not to scare her daughter. And the pharmacist said he would not fill her prescription because of his personal conviction against abortion. She had wanted this child. She wanted to carry it to term. She's already grieving the loss of her pregnancy, and now this man's personal conviction is forcing her to jump through another set of hoops just to protect her health. There was no other pharmacist available to fill the prescription. They had to send it across town, and place the burden on my friend to figure out how she would get there. She did get the prescription the next morning from a different pharmacy, but not after suffering the indignity of being refused at her most vulnerable time.
You actually know this woman? (This story has been getting major news attention lately)  This is one of the most ridiculous cases I've heard. It wasn't even for an abortificant, as the fetus was already deceased. 

Quote
Another story. My best friends in the world tried to get pregnant for 8 years. And finally, it happened. She was carrying a baby boy. She was thrilled. And then at 20 weeks, she discovered that he had unsurvivable birth defects (limb-body wall). She might be able carry him to term, but he definitely would not survive once delivered. There was no surgery to intervene, no way to save him. The couple was devastated. Since they live in a state with few restrictions, her own OB was able to perform the procedure, and she was able to grieve and recover quietly with minimal fuss. If she had lived in a state with restrictive abortion laws, she would have to go through a waiting period, an independent" ultrasound, would potentially have had to travel for hours to access a provider, would have had to walk through a wall of protesters with gory billboards spouting abuse at her.
And if she found out a few weeks later (maybe her 20 week scan was normal, but then a growth scan at 25-weeks showed abnormalities incompatible with life) she would likely have to not only travel for hours; but likely travel to another state entirely; since nearly every state bans at 20- or 24-weeks.  She would have to coordinate time off work (at least a week to fly there, 3-days for the procedure, more if there is a waiting period, and fly home) at a moments notice, pay tens of thousands out of pocket for the procedure (maybe to get some reimbursement from insurance, but it is surely out of network), start her labor in an unfamiliar hotel room, be separated from her spouse for the safety of the clinic doctor to deliver behind bullet proof doors, and likely return to work with no recovery time because it wasn't a procedure done at a hospital, giving the name of the facility to HR to ask for time off to recover from a birth (at, about 25 weeks- D&C is generally no longer considered safe and induction is used, after stopping the baby's heart) is essentially disclosing the procedure.  Having it done in the safety, an anonymity of the hospital the prenatal care in is a million times better for the woman.

Or maybe she had her ultrasound at 19w 5d (instead of the traditional 20-week ultrasound) and the state has a 20-week ban. The woman now has only minutes to make the most important, and most difficult decision of her life- with hopes the doctors can rush her into surgery to do the procedure before the non-emergency OR closes down for the day.  And yes, I know a woman who was given less than 7 minutes to determine if she should end her pregnancy.

Unwanted babies are absolutely NOT the only reason women have abortions. And women doing what they believe is best for their children (because many of these babies wouldn't necessarily be born still; some would suffer needlessly for hours or months; not even mentioning the difficulty of carrying a pregnancy of a doomed child) are forced to deal with difficult situations in even more difficult situations that are thrust upon them only by politicians.

I would respect any woman who chooses to carry a fetus with a fatal abnormality to term. But I also greatly respect the woman who makes the choice to end the pregnancy as well.

Hirondelle

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 977
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20448 on: June 28, 2018, 01:13:30 PM »
Wait, refusing abortions for medical reasons and even a prescription to end the pregnancy of a child who's heart has stopped is even a thing in the US? Mind. Blown.

OtherJen

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 491
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #20449 on: June 28, 2018, 01:38:51 PM »
Wait, refusing abortions for medical reasons and even a prescription to end the pregnancy of a child who's heart has stopped is even a thing in the US? Mind. Blown.

Yep. And now that we've the Supreme Court justice who often acts as the "swing" vote has retired, the court will receive another far-right appointee and will likely overturn Roe v. Wade, which means that the decision to legalize abortions (including medical/chemical abortions) will go back to the individual states. If this happens, women in many states will have no access unless they have the means to travel long distances.