Author Topic: Overheard at Work  (Read 10603591 times)

scottish

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15550 on: November 06, 2016, 01:04:11 PM »
Yeah, I don't really understand this.    Up here we have a single payer system & I pay about 1000 CAD/year for the 4 of us on top of my assorted income taxes.   

It's just medicare - no drugs, dental, LTD etc.   But overall it works pretty well.   Wait times for specialists are pretty long if it's not an emergency, but emergency care is provided quickly.

Why are these premiums so crazy in the US?

kayvent

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15551 on: November 06, 2016, 02:12:52 PM »
Yeah, I don't really understand this.    Up here we have a single payer system & I pay about 1000 CAD/year for the 4 of us on top of my assorted income taxes.   

It's just medicare - no drugs, dental, LTD etc.   But overall it works pretty well.   Wait times for specialists are pretty long if it's not an emergency, but emergency care is provided quickly.

Why are these premiums so crazy in the US?

Previous to PPACA, America spent as much on public healthcare per capita as us Canadians. That sounds reasonable until you realize that medicare/medicaid in the USA only covered a small minority of people. AND they spent a similar amount on private healthcare per capita as us Canadians in public healthcare spending.

From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work whereas our beloved Canadian medicare system is very, but not overly, focused on costs. The idea that you'll only have one ultrasound for your entire pregnancy is accepted here. Similarly, we accept that you'll have to wait a week or more to see your family doctor and months or more to see a specialist. When you simply don't provide services or provide less (i.e. slowly), things are cheap. In my university years I injured my knee and a few years later, unrelated, developed bouts of acute amnesia. With the former, it took weeks to see my family doctor and I think a year before I got a call to book an appointment with a specialist months later. With the latter, I literally forget how long it took to have the condition checked out. Eventually the two issues subsided without care. If I was in the USA, I think my personality would be such that I'd not tolerate such an omission of care.

But we're Canadians. We smile and accept the situation because we're nice and most of us aren't constantly in the system so we don't mind screwing over those who are.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15552 on: November 06, 2016, 02:45:38 PM »
From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work

Really? Because I have read multiple articles and studies over the years which said that US healthcare outcomes are among the lowest in the developed world despite healthcare spending being the highest. Obviously I'm British so I think socialised medicine is de rigeur for the 21st Century, but the NHS does rank among the best in the world for healthcare outcomes while spending less than many other developed nations.

kayvent

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15553 on: November 06, 2016, 05:12:05 PM »
From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work

Really? Because I have read multiple articles and studies over the years which said that US healthcare outcomes are among the lowest in the developed world despite healthcare spending being the highest. Obviously I'm British so I think socialised medicine is de rigeur for the 21st Century, but the NHS does rank among the best in the world for healthcare outcomes while spending less than many other developed nations.

The larger quote gives more context. In Canada we just assume that we'll have to wait weeks to see a doctor, months to see a specialist, and perhaps years to get an operation. We also accept that some health services that are covered under the public system are very limited. This drastically lowers costs. This does not mean outcomes are negatively affected though. For example, comparing the USA to the UK, you're likely to get diagnosed earlier for many diseases and survive longer but the negative outcome (dying of the disease sometime after being diagnosed) occurs at similar rates.

gimp

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15554 on: November 06, 2016, 09:38:59 PM »
Lots of reasons for healthcare to cost more in the US.

More people making terrible life choices. A more sue-happy environment in which doctors need to get paid more, and also in which doctors over-authorize the kitchen sink for relatively minor things (CT scans for everyone!). A hospital price structure that is similar to going into a really fancy restaurant: a list of things you want, no costs listed anywhere; the same thing can be 3x the price three miles away. Private insurance takes a slice, of course. Bills that are way too high because the hospital expects everyone to only pay a fraction, either due to insurance agreements, or asking the hospital for a break, or just not paying. Our doctors almost certainly take home more pay after all costs too, which is a good thing IMO. We also don't cap the costs of treatments (drugs etc), largely because the US is often the source of many of the drugs in the first place (politics.) And so on and so forth.

Realistically, if you can't pay in the US, any emergency healthcare is free, any maintenance stuff is out of reach.

If you're wealthy, it's not important.

If you're old or poor, you get huge amounts of support.

If you have a white collar job, you get insurance subsidized by your employer, generally.

If you work for government, see above.

If you work in a union, see above.

If you're just well off enough that you get no support, but have a relatively normal income where a hospital bill can ruin you, and you get no subsidized insurance from govt or work, then life is hard.

The ACA makes life easier in many respects, closing some of the worst abuses. However, the ACA is a compromise that makes nobody happy.

gimp

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15555 on: November 06, 2016, 09:40:42 PM »
From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work

Really? Because I have read multiple articles and studies over the years which said that US healthcare outcomes are among the lowest in the developed world despite healthcare spending being the highest. Obviously I'm British so I think socialised medicine is de rigeur for the 21st Century, but the NHS does rank among the best in the world for healthcare outcomes while spending less than many other developed nations.

Don't forget that a huge amount of our patients are goddamn idiots. They'll be told that you're fat as fuck, stop eating yourself to death, you have to not eat after this surgery for 12 goddamn hours, then they get their fat fucking family to sneak them in KFC.

So our outcomes are often shitty despite good work from hospitals, not because of substandard care.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15556 on: November 07, 2016, 01:08:47 AM »
From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work

Really? Because I have read multiple articles and studies over the years which said that US healthcare outcomes are among the lowest in the developed world despite healthcare spending being the highest. Obviously I'm British so I think socialised medicine is de rigeur for the 21st Century, but the NHS does rank among the best in the world for healthcare outcomes while spending less than many other developed nations.

Don't forget that a huge amount of our patients are goddamn idiots. They'll be told that you're fat as fuck, stop eating yourself to death, you have to not eat after this surgery for 12 goddamn hours, then they get their fat fucking family to sneak them in KFC.

So our outcomes are often shitty despite good work from hospitals, not because of substandard care.

I honestly don't know how the scale of this problem compares in real life, but in the UK we are constantly told that this is a major problem, particularly for GPs who want to tell people to eat better and exercise more but then find patients just don't or lie about it. Also, NHS waiting times are like the weather over here - everyone has something to say about their experience of them.

I'm not saying US healthcare is absolutely awful or anything, but "work" to me means "make people better", not "make people feel like they're getting a good deal". I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

jinga nation

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15557 on: November 07, 2016, 06:45:21 AM »
From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work

Really? Because I have read multiple articles and studies over the years which said that US healthcare outcomes are among the lowest in the developed world despite healthcare spending being the highest. Obviously I'm British so I think socialised medicine is de rigeur for the 21st Century, but the NHS does rank among the best in the world for healthcare outcomes while spending less than many other developed nations.
Anecdotal data points. Every single relative on my wife's side in the the Greater London area buys private medical insurance. Siblings and first cousins and their spouses. They are in the 22-50 age range. Most are bankers and, accountants, others are office workers, a teacher. It's because waiting to get anything done at an NHS office sucks up productive time.

Kayvent stated what I've been hearing for years from my in-laws, since 2005. When my wife was pregnant, her visiting sister accompanied her for an OBGYN visit. Astounded at the level of care. Amazed, sangs verses of praise. Tremendous verses.

It's not only medicine. Also applies to retail banking, supermarkets (well we're spoilt by Publix), car rentals, generally everything. But this is West Central Florida, we may be an anomaly or a statistical outlier.

Just saying that a lot of times studies don't jive with the boots-on-ground experience. I'm burnt out being told how the NHS sucks by those who contribute to the NHS and are fed up with it. 50+ Anecdotal data points none the less.

Chris22

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15558 on: November 07, 2016, 07:57:22 AM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15559 on: November 07, 2016, 08:00:09 AM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

I could not agree more.

The stories about people in socialized medicine countries waiting months/years to see a specialist or get the services/meds they need scare the hell out of me.

merula

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15560 on: November 07, 2016, 08:13:41 AM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

I'm in basically the same place as you (employed white collar worker with great health care through work), and I definitely hear where you're coming from. I'm just a little unclear on whether you're saying that the potential cost to you outweighs the benefits to others in worse circumstances, or if you're saying that you support socialized medicine because of the benefit to others, despite the cost to you.

If it's the former, it might be worth considering that many countries with public healthcare also have private insurance providers. (See jinga nation's comments about family in London.)

Another question: what do you plan to do after age 65? Would you use Medicare, with the attendant potential for government headaches, or buy private insurance?

arebelspy

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15561 on: November 07, 2016, 08:14:00 AM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

Do you make all your decisions from a "* everyone else, I want mine" perspective?  That's what this post sounds like, at least.

I am genuinely curious.
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Chris22

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15562 on: November 07, 2016, 08:19:22 AM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

Do you make all your decisions from a "* everyone else, I want mine" perspective?  That's what this post sounds like, at least.

I am genuinely curious.

Essentially, yeah, I do.  I am not in favor of making it worse for me, the Average Productive Worker, to benefit others.  Sorry. 

Chris22

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15563 on: November 07, 2016, 08:21:45 AM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

I'm in basically the same place as you (employed white collar worker with great health care through work), and I definitely hear where you're coming from. I'm just a little unclear on whether you're saying that the potential cost to you outweighs the benefits to others in worse circumstances, or if you're saying that you support socialized medicine because of the benefit to others, despite the cost to you.

If it's the former, it might be worth considering that many countries with public healthcare also have private insurance providers. (See jinga nation's comments about family in London.)

No, I'm saying I am not in favor of ruining my good deal. 

I am aware of private insurance in other countries, not sure how my essentially paying for insurance twice (taxes and then out of pocket) is better for me.

Quote
Another question: what do you plan to do after age 65? Would you use Medicare, with the attendant potential for government headaches, or buy private insurance?

I'm 34.  Ask me again when I'm 55 or 60; I have a feeling a lot will change over the next 30 years so it's pretty academic for me to worry about that now.

arebelspy

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15564 on: November 07, 2016, 08:21:49 AM »
Essentially, yeah, I do.  I am not in favor of making it worse for me, the Average Productive Worker, to benefit others.  Sorry.

You don't need to apologize.
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Miss Piggy

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15565 on: November 07, 2016, 08:27:10 AM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

Do you make all your decisions from a "* everyone else, I want mine" perspective?  That's what this post sounds like, at least.

I am genuinely curious.

Here's how I see it: Either way we land (socialized medicine or not), somebody gets screwed.

Socialized medicine => those of us who have a good thing going right now get screwed and could die waiting for services we didn't have to wait long for before.

Non-socialized medicine => people at the lowest socioeconomic levels get screwed, but there are programs in place to serve them.

I don't think our government is capable of running an efficient healthcare system that's a win for everyone. If this is the direction we're heading (and I believe it is), I see it as a downward spiral. Doctors end up leaving a system that doesn't work even remotely in their favor, so patients have fewer and fewer doctors/specialists/surgeons we can see, so we wait longer and longer for the services we need. That's not a win for anybody.

Torran

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15566 on: November 07, 2016, 08:28:48 AM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

I could not agree more.

The stories about people in socialized medicine countries waiting months/years to see a specialist or get the services/meds they need scare the hell out of me.

Yes but for every story like this there are many which say the opposite point.

I'm British, rely on the NHS, and have never had a problem with waiting times/dirty hospitals/whatever other way people try and shit on the NHS.

I've had several fairly complicated procedures, including a lumber puncture, MRI scan, and ongoing assessment by a neurologist, and it was all done very quickly and without any fuss, and oh yeah, no payment for anything at all.

It just grinds my gears when people's arguments against socialised healthcare boil down to 'I'm not paying for other people's lives to be saved'. Wow. Just wow. Hope you're proud of yourself.

arebelspy

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15567 on: November 07, 2016, 08:29:48 AM »
I believe your fears are unfounded, and I think the proof is in all the other countries that have better health outcomes than us.  That's not a downward spiral at all.

I don't feel like debating it though, so we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Chris22

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15568 on: November 07, 2016, 08:36:51 AM »
I believe your fears are unfounded, and I think the proof is in all the other countries that have better health outcomes than us.  That's not a downward spiral at all.

I don't feel like debating it though, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

I don't believe the bolded is true; I think it either A) comes from taking 'value' into the equation, B) comes from tortured statistics (such as the oft-cited ""we're terrible at infant mortality" "problem"), or is a result of inclusion of demographics way outside my own.

Like I said, from my perspective, I[/b] have access to the best health care in the world.  Should something be done for those in our country who have little to no health care?  Yes.  Should you burn mine down so everyone can have the same shitty government run health care?  Fuck no, and I'll fight you to stop it from happening.

Also: how many people here have been on US gov't run healthcare?  I have, in the military.  It was garbage.  You want Walter Reed and its problems to be your gold standard?  Thought not.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 08:38:37 AM by Chris22 »

Miss Piggy

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15569 on: November 07, 2016, 08:38:41 AM »
It just grinds my gears when people's arguments against socialised healthcare boil down to 'I'm not paying for other people's lives to be saved'. Wow. Just wow. Hope you're proud of yourself.

No, that's not it at all. I DO think everyone should have access to good, timely healthcare services. And I'm glad you've had good experiences with NHS.

For simplicity, let's just say we currently have two levels of healthcare available in the U.S.: Really good healthcare/insurance like I (and many others) have; and really bad healthcare/no insurance like many other people have. My fear is that our government is incapable of providing the "really good healthcare" to everyone. Therefore, those of us who have good insurance now will end up with a shittier system if the government takes over, as opposed to having a government that's capable of providing care comparable to what I currently have to everyone. Instead of raising the bar to a higher level for everyone, we get a lower bar across the board.

I hope that's a better explanation that what you're assuming.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15570 on: November 07, 2016, 08:41:21 AM »
I don't feel like debating it though, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

Agreed.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15571 on: November 07, 2016, 08:49:35 AM »
I have used private medical insurance in the UK, just the NHS, and now this American monstrosity people call a "system".

I was hospitalized for a week while on the private plan in London, and it was nice not having to wait too much, but definitely not worth the ridiculous amounts of money paid by my dad's employer (I was a minor at the time).

Later, as a young lad in university, I had a couple ER visits at a NHS hospital. Sure, I had to wait longer. But people crying about "rationing of care" are missing the effin point. Rationing and prioritizing care is the only way this works. Putting idiots with self inflicted, non-urgent diseases at the back of the line is a design decision. I don't mind waiting a half day to get my bone fracture looked at if that means the dude who just lost his arm goes first, and the dude with an ingrown toenail goes last. And the obese alcoholic can wait an entire decade for his stomach surgery for all I care.

I don't give a flying fuck about getting the best care in the world. I just want good enough care. Stop spending so much fucking money on getting the best oncologists or neurosurgeons to work at your hospital and start making sure Kevin doesn't bankrupt his parents when he falls off his skateboard.

Torran

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15572 on: November 07, 2016, 08:50:00 AM »

Should you burn mine down so everyone can have the same shitty government run health care?  Fuck no, and I'll fight you to stop it from happening.


I just don't understand this logic at all. It seems to be based on a heap of assumptions. Just because other people will have something they currently don't have, would not necessarily mean you would be losing anything. It's not like there's only a finite amount of 'health care' to go around. It depends on the way a society agrees to structure the provision of this resource.

That's the thing I basically don't understand. Socialised healthcare, firstly, is different in every country that has it, so you can't say *exactly* what it's going to be like if it happens in your country. Also I'm sure if you asked your average French person they'd say they've got the best healthcare in the world. It's easy to make grand statements about the superiority of your health care if you don't know any different.

The idea is not that everyone has to suffer 'shitty' healthcare, but that healthcare is prioritized by the government as one of the things you provide your citizens with in return for taxes. It something people in a society should see as a right - to be looked after no matter their financial situation. It's a basic security that everyone deserves. Frankly I have heard so much cr*p being spoken about socialised healthcare by people who have never used it.

I'll get back to work now.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15573 on: November 07, 2016, 08:53:52 AM »

I just don't understand this logic at all. It seems to be based on a heap of assumptions. Just because other people will have something they currently don't have, would not necessarily mean you would be losing anything.

No, my fear is not that more people will have access to healthcare, my fear is that the system I have will be replaced with a government run system, and again, having experienced that in the military, that is definitely worse. 

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15574 on: November 07, 2016, 08:56:24 AM »
From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work

Really? Because I have read multiple articles and studies over the years which said that US healthcare outcomes are among the lowest in the developed world despite healthcare spending being the highest. Obviously I'm British so I think socialised medicine is de rigeur for the 21st Century, but the NHS does rank among the best in the world for healthcare outcomes while spending less than many other developed nations.

Don't forget that a huge amount of our patients are goddamn idiots. They'll be told that you're fat as fuck, stop eating yourself to death, you have to not eat after this surgery for 12 goddamn hours, then they get their fat fucking family to sneak them in KFC.

So our outcomes are often shitty despite good work from hospitals, not because of substandard care.

I honestly don't know how the scale of this problem compares in real life, but in the UK we are constantly told that this is a major problem, particularly for GPs who want to tell people to eat better and exercise more but then find patients just don't or lie about it. Also, NHS waiting times are like the weather over here - everyone has something to say about their experience of them.

I'm not saying US healthcare is absolutely awful or anything, but "work" to me means "make people better", not "make people feel like they're getting a good deal". I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)
Not everyone objects to socialized health care.  From what I see and hear, it's the objection to high taxes, the objection to other people getting something that *I* paid for out of *my* taxes, and the lack of personal responsibility.  Also "bootstraps".

It's never my problem until it's my problem.

I know people who object to the ACA, but are on Medicaid.
I know people who complain about their ACA premiums (including relatives), but they are people who literally have had union-level amazing company sponsored health insurance their whole lives.

I've always had good health care as an adult.  As a kid, we didn't have insurance, we paid out of pocket.  I didn't know any better, but I had surgery at 12 ($6000) and my parents paid it back $100 a month for 5 years.

My first adult health care was at college. Then military.  Then job-sponsored.  White collar jobs often come with decent health care, and my spouse and I BOTH have it.

I personally don't think that your health care should be tied to having the *right* job or being married to the *right* person with the *right* job.

Anyway, about the "lying".  I swear my mom would go to the doctor and then she'd tell me that "he says I'm doing great!"  She was seriously 100 pounds overweight, took 25 pills a day, and was an alcoholic...but she didn't tell him about the alcohol, which eventually killed her.  I don't even want to know what it cost for her hospital stays, especially the last one.  But hey, covered by Medicare.

mm1970

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15575 on: November 07, 2016, 09:00:53 AM »

I just don't understand this logic at all. It seems to be based on a heap of assumptions. Just because other people will have something they currently don't have, would not necessarily mean you would be losing anything.

No, my fear is not that more people will have access to healthcare, my fear is that the system I have will be replaced with a government run system, and again, having experienced that in the military, that is definitely worse.
That's interesting, because I felt the medical care I got in the military was fantastic.  But I'm more than a decade older than you are, and my medical care was pretty basic annual exams to keep getting my birth control pills.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15576 on: November 07, 2016, 09:01:15 AM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

I could not agree more.

The stories about people in socialized medicine countries waiting months/years to see a specialist or get the services/meds they need scare the hell out of me.

Yes but for every story like this there are many which say the opposite point.

I'm British, rely on the NHS, and have never had a problem with waiting times/dirty hospitals/whatever other way people try and shit on the NHS.

I've had several fairly complicated procedures, including a lumber puncture, MRI scan, and ongoing assessment by a neurologist, and it was all done very quickly and without any fuss, and oh yeah, no payment for anything at all.

It just grinds my gears when people's arguments against socialised healthcare boil down to 'I'm not paying for other people's lives to be saved'. Wow. Just wow. Hope you're proud of yourself.

This. I'm currently pregant, getting excellent healthcare from the doctor of my choice (finding her took 2 phone calls, and I had an apt a week later), and am paying nothing. Ultrasound? nothing. Diagnostic tests? Nothing. Childbirth? Nothing. (Well, not entirely true: parking at the hospital is 6$. So 6$ parking fee for childbirth.)

My mother has rheumatoid artheritis. She got a referral to a specialist from her GP, for the diagnosis/follow-ups. Time until the specialist appointment: less than 3 weeks (and it could have been less if she'd been willing to see a private-sector doctor, but it didn't seem worth the cost). Total cost of diagnosis, treatments, ongoing visits: nothing. Cost of medication: copay is capped at 82$/month TOTAL for ALL prescriptions (so, once your 20% copay hits 82$, you have no copay). Thanks, Quebec.

My neighbor. 25-year-old kid. No family doctor. No private insurance. Feels an odd lump in his balls. Calls the local public health clinic, explins the issue. Sees a doctor that afternoon. Has a scan that afternoon. Has the results that afternoon: testicular cancer, caught early. Is booked for an operation: 6 days later. Follow-up scans confirm: no chemo necessary, he is cancer-free. Total cost of this treatment: nothing. Total time from 'huh, lump' to operation and treatment: 7 days.

My FIL has prostate cancer. Chemo treatments, repeated scans, repeated doctor's visits, etc: done rapidly, with empathy, at 0 cost. Medication: capped at 82$/month MAX.

Like, if you have a random fever and go to the local 24-hour emergency room/clinic, you'll wait for available resources (aka: if a car accident comes in, you can wait while someone who might die if THEY wait is treated. Triage. Same as you'll find in US waiting rooms). I personally think that's fair.

But otherwise.. I have no idea where y'all are getting your horror stories, but Quebec socialized healthcare is totally working.

Ok, I have some quibbles, as do most people - it could work more effectively. Be more efficient - you have an MRI booked right quick for possibly-urgent conditions, but 'let's double-check the source of these migraines' might take a few months, sure. If you care, you can pay for a private clinic. But we're talking minor whining about improvements, and 100% NOT an envy for the US system. Dear lord. Anything but that.

I doubt this will convince anyone... but it seemed worth saying.

Oh, and to the people who object to high taxes: my husband and I bring in, on average, about 110K/year. At Quebc tax rates vs say, California tax rates, even after exchange rates, we're penalized, sure. But once you account for the cost of health insurance for people of our income bracket, we're hitting about even. I don't see how paying for heathcare via taxes is different from paying it via health insurance.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15577 on: November 07, 2016, 09:09:25 AM »

I just don't understand this logic at all. It seems to be based on a heap of assumptions. Just because other people will have something they currently don't have, would not necessarily mean you would be losing anything.

No, my fear is not that more people will have access to healthcare, my fear is that the system I have will be replaced with a government run system, and again, having experienced that in the military, that is definitely worse.

My daddy was in the Navy for 20+ years, and I was in the Army for 6. Military healthcare is fantastic. I daily thank God that my parents have that.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15578 on: November 07, 2016, 09:11:30 AM »
Also: how many people here have been on US gov't run healthcare?  I have, in the military.  It was garbage.  You want Walter Reed and its problems to be your gold standard?  Thought not.

Currently in the Army, can confirm that government run healthcare is crap. Oh, you have chronic knee pain or back pain? Here is some 800 milligram ibuprofen. Suck it up and come back if it continues, rinse/repeat for years.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15579 on: November 07, 2016, 09:18:14 AM »
Also: how many people here have been on US gov't run healthcare?  I have, in the military.  It was garbage.  You want Walter Reed and its problems to be your gold standard?  Thought not.

Currently in the Army, can confirm that government run healthcare is crap. Oh, you have chronic knee pain or back pain? Here is some 800 milligram ibuprofen. Suck it up and come back if it continues, rinse/repeat for years.

And THAT would be why health insurance should include physiotherapy, omfg.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15580 on: November 07, 2016, 09:21:50 AM »

I just don't understand this logic at all. It seems to be based on a heap of assumptions. Just because other people will have something they currently don't have, would not necessarily mean you would be losing anything.

No, my fear is not that more people will have access to healthcare, my fear is that the system I have will be replaced with a government run system, and again, having experienced that in the military, that is definitely worse.

My daddy was in the Navy for 20+ years, and I was in the Army for 6. Military healthcare is fantastic. I daily thank God that my parents have that.

Can be. My great aunt used to drive 50 miles to go to the VA rather than the VA that was 5 minutes from her house because of the difference in care.

(She was in the Public Health Service)

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15581 on: November 07, 2016, 09:33:26 AM »
Those of you in the US who say you don't trust the government to run a public health care system, which government are you talking about?  Federal or State?  In Canada the Provinces run the provincial health care systems*. A lot of funding comes from the federal government and there are minimums each province has to meet to get to meet that funding.  The provinces also coordinate, so that if you need health care while in another province your regular coverage works.  So if you think your State government would do better than your Federal government, that is certainly doable.  Really, in large countries it makes more sense to do it at the state/provincial level.

*The constitution basically gave certain areas to the Federal Government, and everything else was for the Provinces - which is why the provinces run both education and health care.  Not Federal areas.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15582 on: November 07, 2016, 09:43:58 AM »
*The constitution basically gave certain areas to the Federal Government, and everything else was for the Provinces - which is why the provinces run both education and health care.  Not Federal areas.
That's the way the US Constitution was set up as well.  Unfortunately (IMO), the last several decades have seen a steady aggregation and concentration of power in the federal government.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15583 on: November 07, 2016, 09:53:23 AM »
Those of you in the US who say you don't trust the government to run a public health care system, which government are you talking about?  Federal or State?

Federal.

50 different state-run programs would be even worse.

mtn

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15584 on: November 07, 2016, 10:14:01 AM »
Those of you in the US who say you don't trust the government to run a public health care system, which government are you talking about?  Federal or State?

Federal.

50 different state-run programs would be even much better, and much worse.

FTFY. I shudder at the thought of a health system run by the State of Illinois or Mississippi; one run by Massachusetts or Minnesota or Iowa would probably be pretty great.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15585 on: November 07, 2016, 10:29:33 AM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

Do you make all your decisions from a "* everyone else, I want mine" perspective?  That's what this post sounds like, at least.

I am genuinely curious.

Here's how I see it: Either way we land (socialized medicine or not), somebody gets screwed.

Socialized medicine => those of us who have a good thing going right now get screwed and could die waiting for services we didn't have to wait long for before.

Non-socialized medicine => people at the lowest socioeconomic levels get screwed, but there are programs in place to serve them.

I don't think our government is capable of running an efficient healthcare system that's a win for everyone. If this is the direction we're heading (and I believe it is), I see it as a downward spiral. Doctors end up leaving a system that doesn't work even remotely in their favor, so patients have fewer and fewer doctors/specialists/surgeons we can see, so we wait longer and longer for the services we need. That's not a win for anybody.

I've lived under both a socialized and non-socialized system, and fully agree that the US government is not capable of running any sort of healthcare system at the federal level. This isn't (just) an indictment of the US federal government, it's an observation about balancing flexibility with functionality. The USA has too many people distributed over too large of an area, with too many regional variations for a health care system to function effectively at a federal level.

One thing most of my fellow Americans sometimes haven't been told is that, of the countries that have socialized medicine, no large nation ever attempts to regulate socialized medicine at the federal level. (The ones who try generally fail.) ALL the administrative details, including spending authority, is delegated to the state, province, or territory level. The portion of taxes that goes to health care might be collected at the federal level and distributed to each region in a per-capita fashion, with an occasional federally funded infrastructure initiative to build a hospital in an under-served or rural area, but if a region decides it needs to spend more on hospitals and, say, less on staff or administration it has to balance its own budget and perhaps raise taxes, charge fees, or limit services within that region by not paying for certain procedures or products. This is due to economy of scale: a socialized medicine system simply has to be flexible, and 200+ million people distributed over a large area is the exact opposite of flexible. Trying to run a socialized medical program at the federal level is like using a Cadillac to swat a fly. But there's no way Americans will ever accept anything except a federally run program.

In the United States there's a gigantic demand for homogeneity and for an extremely dominant federal government. People don't even like the idea of having local shops, industries, or foods: it all has to be McProcessed or Wal-uniform so that the same flimsy clothing made by overseas slave or child labor is for sale in every city, while the same concoctions of grease, salt, starch, and high fructose corn syrup are on every plate in the nation. In the United States, that kind of obeisance to corporate dominance isn't considered a gross-out, nor is the near-deification of whoever sits in the Oval Office. In terms of a health care system, unless everyone gets the exact same misdiagnosis, lengthy but irrelevant questionnaire containing information completely ignored by all the medical practitioners, gamut of unnecessary tests, and package of OxyCrap at every visit no matter what state you're in, no American will be satisfied.

In countries with socialized medicine, the federal government is willing to delegate authority to its regions or states. But in the USA there is abso-freaking-lutely no way the federal government will give up an iota of power or authority unless it is forced to do so. States in the USA don't have much in terms of rights or autonomy, because in the USA federal money always comes with strings attached. You want money for highways? Fine... raise the minimum drinking age to 21 and deal with a sudden and ongoing upsurge in binge drinking and drunk driving behavior among teens and adults. Otherwise, no highway money.

In countries with socialized medicine, there are very few big privately owned medical corporations. Much of the infrastructure, such as hospitals, ambulances, and emergency rooms, will be owned by the city, province, or region. The people who work directly with the infrastructure items (such as people employed in an emergency room) are employed by the hospital or by some group that gets its money from the provincial or local system. But individual clinics, doctors, physiotherapists, surgeons with admitting or hospital privileges, and outpatient service providers are for the most part entrepreneurs. They mostly bill the single-payer state or provincial system for each service they provide, and extra-billing is frequently capped. This keeps costs down for the consumer, and it works because it operates in the context of a legal system that limits tort claims.

Torts, in parts of the United States, are so out of control that most doctors pay through the nose for malpractice insurance and have no choice but to pass the cost on to the consumer. In order for a single-payer system to work in the United States, many states would have to completely reform their legal systems so as to get rid of civil prosecution for malpractice and limit malpractice payouts to fines imposed after a criminal conviction for negligence, gross negligence, or malpractice. Realistically, Americans aren't going to be willing to do that.

In the United States, it's acceptable for a state-level government to be utterly corrupt or incompetent. When such a government tries to run anything complicated, disaster is the only predictable result. A state government that routinely balances its budget, avoids major scandals, kicks out corrupt people, and has a proven track record of running functional universities, road systems, and other state facilities will do OK running a health care system. All the other states are pretty much fucked.

The last reason why socialized medicine will never work in the United States is because Americans, like most people in developing countries where there's vast wealth inequality, have a cultural aversion to paying for anything they don't personally expect to use. They shriek over the thought of subsidizing someone else's prenatal care or C-section, for example, forgetting that they themselves once benefited from similar services when they were born, and set up the insurance and billing system in a way that forces the nearest person (in this case, the gestation box) to pay for all the baby's expenses prior to the birth. The behavior comes across as being very self-absorbed, but in reality it's a survival based behavior. With so many people struggling to get by (due in part to extremely spendypants behavior), people in a bad financial position have enough worries about providing for themselves and their families. They can't spare the money, energy, or time to worry about someone else's problems. If more American families were debt free with a large emergency fund, socialized (or non-socialized) medicine might actually be optimal.

marion10

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15586 on: November 07, 2016, 10:52:58 AM »
On waits- I have private health insurance. I had an appointment with a specialist- for November 9. On October 31, it was cancelled. When is the soonest I can now be seen? January 18.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15587 on: November 07, 2016, 11:39:39 AM »
OK, all y'all, I made a new thread: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/the-socialised-medicine-debate-thread/ Let's move the conversation over.

onlykelsey

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15588 on: November 07, 2016, 11:43:44 AM »
OK, all y'all, I made a new thread: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/the-socialised-medicine-debate-thread/ Let's move the conversation over.

Hurrah!

Back on topic: A young lawyer at my job was just complaining that after he maxes his 401K (18K, as he hasn't contributed all year), there will only be a few thousand left in his bonus.  He was debating whether he really had enough to put the full 18K in while still buying the stuff he wanted to this year.

For context, this is a job that pays first-year lawyers 180K now, so 18K is approximately 8% of his pre-tax earnings, or maybe... 12% of his post-tax earnings.

GardenBaker

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15589 on: November 07, 2016, 11:47:19 AM »
"With the economy the way it is and this presidential election, I'm never going to retire, I can't afford to," <<---- from my boss who insists on going out to eat everyday at a sit down restaurant, because she HAS to get out off the office for an hour. Lately she's been miffed at me, because I no longer go out to lunch with her. I feel like saying, "I don't want to be your age and still not have a hope for retirement in sight," but I keep my plans for ER out of the conversation because she's always right anway and I want to keep my job so I can keep building my FU money.

Archivist

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15590 on: November 07, 2016, 01:45:23 PM »
"With the economy the way it is and this presidential election, I'm never going to retire, I can't afford to," <<---- from my boss who insists on going out to eat everyday at a sit down restaurant, because she HAS to get out off the office for an hour. Lately she's been miffed at me, because I no longer go out to lunch with her. I feel like saying, "I don't want to be your age and still not have a hope for retirement in sight," but I keep my plans for ER out of the conversation because she's always right anway and I want to keep my job so I can keep building my FU money.

That's a good example of how a job can cost you more money than it's worth, especially when you calculate commute and all the other things you do to compensate for the time spent working (more eloquently covered in Your Money or Your Life).

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15591 on: November 07, 2016, 03:28:19 PM »
I'm in my third week at a new job loosely connected with personal finance, so all we do all day is talk money.

I was told early on that one girl in my team is famously frugal. She's in her early 20s and saving for a house deposit.

Ok, but...

In two and a bit weeks she has eaten out for lunch every day but one, and this morning came in telling us about her awesome breakfast. It was only $14.

Nice girl but she thinks Groupons are the solution to everything.

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15592 on: November 07, 2016, 04:29:22 PM »
I'm in my third week at a new job loosely connected with personal finance, so all we do all day is talk money.

I was told early on that one girl in my team is famously frugal. She's in her early 20s and saving for a house deposit.

Ok, but...

In two and a bit weeks she has eaten out for lunch every day but one, and this morning came in telling us about her awesome breakfast. It was only $14.

Nice girl but she thinks Groupons are the solution to everything.
Funny.

Wonder what she did or bragged about to be labeled frugal early on.
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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15593 on: November 07, 2016, 04:45:58 PM »
I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

I'm in basically the same place as you (employed white collar worker with great health care through work), and I definitely hear where you're coming from. I'm just a little unclear on whether you're saying that the potential cost to you outweighs the benefits to others in worse circumstances, or if you're saying that you support socialized medicine because of the benefit to others, despite the cost to you.

If it's the former, it might be worth considering that many countries with public healthcare also have private insurance providers. (See jinga nation's comments about family in London.)

No, I'm saying I am not in favor of ruining my good deal. 

I am aware of private insurance in other countries, not sure how my essentially paying for insurance twice (taxes and then out of pocket) is better for me.

Quote
Another question: what do you plan to do after age 65? Would you use Medicare, with the attendant potential for government headaches, or buy private insurance?

I'm 34.  Ask me again when I'm 55 or 60; I have a feeling a lot will change over the next 30 years so it's pretty academic for me to worry about that now.

Interesting how you think that socialized healthcare would result in a decrease of your service now.

I went from socialized healthcare in Canada to a gold standard, employer provided healthcare in the USA.
Not accounting for deductibles, my costs for taxes vs. medical deductions were pretty much a wash (It was California).

If we had needed to use emergency service (eg. a broken leg on a kid or maternity), then the US would have been a lot more money.  If we had needed specialized "optional" surgery, then Canada would have been free - but not available without waitlists..

But man, the insurance processing and accounting and deductibles are a PITA!   I can't believe anyone can claim a "sweet deal" when you have to deal with that amount of red tape.

Some studies show that 25% to 33% of all costs in the hospital are related to the cost for accounting... for every bandage and pill and item that is used to each patient, and to bill and collect.  The nurses' paperwork load is enormous in the USA because of it.   THAT is where your money is going in the US, and why the costs are no more for similar healthcare as in the UK and Canada -- and yet, all of the other people get decent healthcare coverege, too.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15594 on: November 08, 2016, 02:06:43 AM »
OK, all y'all, I made a new thread: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/the-socialised-medicine-debate-thread/ Let's move the conversation over.

^^

I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

I'm in basically the same place as you (employed white collar worker with great health care through work), and I definitely hear where you're coming from. I'm just a little unclear on whether you're saying that the potential cost to you outweighs the benefits to others in worse circumstances, or if you're saying that you support socialized medicine because of the benefit to others, despite the cost to you.

If it's the former, it might be worth considering that many countries with public healthcare also have private insurance providers. (See jinga nation's comments about family in London.)

No, I'm saying I am not in favor of ruining my good deal. 

I am aware of private insurance in other countries, not sure how my essentially paying for insurance twice (taxes and then out of pocket) is better for me.

Quote
Another question: what do you plan to do after age 65? Would you use Medicare, with the attendant potential for government headaches, or buy private insurance?

I'm 34.  Ask me again when I'm 55 or 60; I have a feeling a lot will change over the next 30 years so it's pretty academic for me to worry about that now.

Interesting how you think that socialized healthcare would result in a decrease of your service now.

I went from socialized healthcare in Canada to a gold standard, employer provided healthcare in the USA.
Not accounting for deductibles, my costs for taxes vs. medical deductions were pretty much a wash (It was California).

If we had needed to use emergency service (eg. a broken leg on a kid or maternity), then the US would have been a lot more money.  If we had needed specialized "optional" surgery, then Canada would have been free - but not available without waitlists..

But man, the insurance processing and accounting and deductibles are a PITA!   I can't believe anyone can claim a "sweet deal" when you have to deal with that amount of red tape.

Some studies show that 25% to 33% of all costs in the hospital are related to the cost for accounting... for every bandage and pill and item that is used to each patient, and to bill and collect.  The nurses' paperwork load is enormous in the USA because of it.   THAT is where your money is going in the US, and why the costs are no more for similar healthcare as in the UK and Canada -- and yet, all of the other people get decent healthcare coverege, too.

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15595 on: November 08, 2016, 02:26:41 AM »
I'm in my third week at a new job loosely connected with personal finance, so all we do all day is talk money.

I was told early on that one girl in my team is famously frugal. She's in her early 20s and saving for a house deposit.

Ok, but...

In two and a bit weeks she has eaten out for lunch every day but one, and this morning came in telling us about her awesome breakfast. It was only $14.

Nice girl but she thinks Groupons are the solution to everything.
Funny.

Wonder what she did or bragged about to be labeled frugal early on.

After I posted this she bought tickets to a show ($190 each) then left early to get her eyebrows "done".

MrRealEstate

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15596 on: November 08, 2016, 08:36:50 AM »
I'm in my third week at a new job loosely connected with personal finance, so all we do all day is talk money.

I was told early on that one girl in my team is famously frugal. She's in her early 20s and saving for a house deposit.

Ok, but...

In two and a bit weeks she has eaten out for lunch every day but one, and this morning came in telling us about her awesome breakfast. It was only $14.

Nice girl but she thinks Groupons are the solution to everything.
Funny.

Wonder what she did or bragged about to be labeled frugal early on.

After I posted this she bought tickets to a show ($190 each) then left early to get her eyebrows "done".

« Last Edit: November 08, 2016, 08:38:50 AM by MrRealEstate »

BlueHouse

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15597 on: November 08, 2016, 09:22:40 AM »

Not everyone objects to socialized health care.  From what I see and hear, it's the objection to high taxes, the objection to other people getting something that *I* paid for out of *my* taxes, and the lack of personal responsibility.  Also "bootstraps".

It's never my problem until it's my problem.

I know people who object to the ACA, but are on Medicaid.
I know people who complain about their ACA premiums (including relatives), but they are people who literally have had union-level amazing company sponsored health insurance their whole lives.


+1.  Most people who complain the loudest are those who don't even use ACA or who do not know the true cost (after their subsidy). 

I thought I would hate it.  I do not get a subsidy.  Here are the things I actually like about it. 

1.  As a self-employed person, I'm no longer worried about "pre-existing conditions" and I will actually go to the doctor again AND tell the truth because I don't fear getting dropped. 
2.  I did have to change insurance plans, but the cost is comparable to what it was under private insurance.
3.  I still have the option to pay for anything I want outside of my normal coverage (as does everyone else)
4.  I like that 20 Million people who didn't have insurance now do
5.  I like that we know in advance what it costs the taxpayers for subsidies, etc, vs. uninsured people going to emergency rooms

If you've always had your insurance paid for by a company and now you don't, you don't really have a fair reference to point to -- you were just unaware of the costs of that insurance. 



 

MrRealEstate

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15598 on: November 08, 2016, 09:51:32 AM »

Not everyone objects to socialized health care.  From what I see and hear, it's the objection to high taxes, the objection to other people getting something that *I* paid for out of *my* taxes, and the lack of personal responsibility.  Also "bootstraps".

It's never my problem until it's my problem.

I know people who object to the ACA, but are on Medicaid.
I know people who complain about their ACA premiums (including relatives), but they are people who literally have had union-level amazing company sponsored health insurance their whole lives.


+1.  Most people who complain the loudest are those who don't even use ACA or who do not know the true cost (after their subsidy). 

I thought I would hate it.  I do not get a subsidy.  Here are the things I actually like about it. 

1.  As a self-employed person, I'm no longer worried about "pre-existing conditions" and I will actually go to the doctor again AND tell the truth because I don't fear getting dropped. 
2.  I did have to change insurance plans, but the cost is comparable to what it was under private insurance.
3.  I still have the option to pay for anything I want outside of my normal coverage (as does everyone else)
4.  I like that 20 Million people who didn't have insurance now do
5.  I like that we know in advance what it costs the taxpayers for subsidies, etc, vs. uninsured people going to emergency rooms

If you've always had your insurance paid for by a company and now you don't, you don't really have a fair reference to point to -- you were just unaware of the costs of that insurance. 



 


Healthcare discussion now has its own thread.

Ralph2

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Re: Overheard at Work
« Reply #15599 on: November 08, 2016, 10:44:32 PM »
I personally hate this shit and hate anyone thinks there automatically has to be gender roles.. At a previous job I was bored one night and baked cookies, mostly because I wanted them. Since I had extras and knew that if I kept them they would be promptly consumed by me, I brought them into work. I can't tell you how many snide comments were said about how "women bake cookies," as if I was any less of a man for baking. Very few people said thank you, and as a result I stopped bringing them in. Each time I baked them, I would share them with my friends, people that would at least have the decency to show some appreciation.

We had a series of white ribbon (campaign to end violence against women) activities at work, it went on for over a week and culminated in a cake bakeoff and a beach BBQ/sports day.
Sitting in a hot stuffy room waiting for our lectures to begin one afternoon we were asked if we had all baked our cakes for the cake off the next day. My wife and daughter will not let me cook anything more complicated than sausage, egg and onion sangas. That is a job for the females at home, but the boys were allowed to cook and two became bit chefs in different restaurants and pubs etc.
Please don't hate my wife.

I simply said that's a girls job at my place, never got the "at my place" out, or the explanation that my wife said if they want you to fool around and spend a day eating cake and playing games we can do that at home, work is a place to work.

Do we have a problem with violence, sexism, racism etc at work? Not that I know of, but we are spending increasing time on compulsory various social awareness programs each year to the point that it is affecting production.

Large government department that is going through staffing issues and currently wants to downsize numbers.