Overheard at Work

[JordanOfGilead]

VP drives up in brand-new Tesla (the expensive extra expensive P9000 extra super turbo plus one that uses freshly-printed Benjamins to run)

Me: "Wow, neato car"

Him: "yeah, i guess - it was supposed to be my wife's but she didnt end up liking it so she got something else and I'm forced to drive this, wouldn't be my first choice"

Me: ................

I know this whole situation is overall profoundly idiotic, and these people need a real facepunch, but if I may pick at just one assumption:

Operating cost of a P90D is $.05/mi at the national average of $.14/kWh, as low as $.01 with some optimizations (hypermiling, time-of-use billing plan), or even free* if he sticks to the Supercharger network. Granted, the car is ridiculous as f*ck, but operating cost is a real bright spot, not another massive drain as implied (and as it would be with an ICE equivalent in the same class). Over the warranty period alone, TCO converges with that of a much cheaper car, depending on driving cycles.
This is the primary advantage of long-range EV technology. Aside from being currently available only in an insane package of unicorn hide and Unobtainium, it really is fundamentally superior from a lifecycle energy cost standpoint, and after it's refined and scaled up for mass markets the retail price will reflect that.
--your friendly local EV nerd
*baked into purchase price, really

My parents bought a "new" SUV from a fellow who bought it for his wife without consulting her. That wife wanted a Passat, not some big SUV. It was two weeks old more or less. Hundreds of miles tops. The way my parents tell the story he was really frustrated with his wife. Guess he wanted her to have what he wanted (SUV) and did not consider her taste in cars. He didn't get what he paid for the SUV. They made their discounted offer, and he paid it with reluctance.

Oh look, the #1 and #2 biggest reasons why people get divorced. Finances, and failure to communicate. Good job, guy.

I was going to nitpick that one too, but I then I figured, the costs might actually be higher than other cars (certainly more than a Leaf). The P90D probably has massive low profile, high wear tires. Regen braking might save the brakes, but the pads are probably pretty expensive when they do need replaced.

So it might cost a bit extra to run one despite the low fuel costs.

A quick google search lead me to a total cost of ownership thread on a Tesla forum.
https://my.teslamotors.com/it_CH/forum/forums/providing-total-cost-ownership-spreadsheet-tesla-vs-ice-community-here

[Threshkin]

...snip...
A quick google search lead me to a total cost of ownership thread on a Tesla forum.
https://my.teslamotors.com/it_CH/forum/forums/providing-total-cost-ownership-spreadsheet-tesla-vs-ice-community-here

I just read some of the comments in this thread.  WOW, talk about first world problems!!!!

[JordanOfGilead]

...snip...
A quick google search lead me to a total cost of ownership thread on a Tesla forum.
https://my.teslamotors.com/it_CH/forum/forums/providing-total-cost-ownership-spreadsheet-tesla-vs-ice-community-here

I just read some of the comments in this thread.  WOW, talk about first world problems!!!!

I didn't read too deeply into it. I just checked the document the OP posted and saw that even with the overly simplistic (and probably not-too-accurate) method of calculation, the Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

[Vertical Mode]

That's ....kind of my strategy?

1. Dump money into Vanguard index funds.
2. Ignore news about the stock market for ten-fifteen years so I don't panic.
3. Profit!

RE: step 2 - when I catch myself paying attention, I like to root for the market like it's a sports team. If we win, great! If we lose, well, there's another game tomorrow. Helps me absorb the gyrations from day to day.

[zephyr911]

I was going to nitpick that one too, but I then I figured, the costs might actually be higher than other cars (certainly more than a Leaf). The P90D probably has massive low profile, high wear tires. Regen braking might save the brakes, but the pads are probably pretty expensive when they do need replaced.

So it might cost a bit extra to run one despite the low fuel costs.

I really meant to limit my comment to energy/fuel cost comparisons, but WRT the other factors: you'd be surprised how much regen helps, especially if you hypermile. There are current-gen EVs with over 200K miles and original brakes.
I hear the 21" rims eat tires like candy, but the 19" ones do okay.

Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

I'm not sure if this is intended as a rebuttal, but "more than half the price" is still "much cheaper" when the purchase price in question is over $100K. ;)

Obviously, I'm not trying to talk anyone into buying one, or about to do so myself. I'm backing up a simple, carefully defined statement about the powertrain technology, Mostly because it relates to developments that are relevant to the interests of Mustachians, and will become even more so in coming years.

[dragoncar]

I was going to nitpick that one too, but I then I figured, the costs might actually be higher than other cars (certainly more than a Leaf). The P90D probably has massive low profile, high wear tires. Regen braking might save the brakes, but the pads are probably pretty expensive when they do need replaced.

So it might cost a bit extra to run one despite the low fuel costs.

I really meant to limit my comment to energy/fuel cost comparisons, but WRT the other factors: you'd be surprised how much regen helps, especially if you hypermile. There are current-gen EVs with over 200K miles and original brakes.
I hear the 21" rims eat tires like candy, but the 19" ones do okay.

Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

I'm not sure if this is intended as a rebuttal, but "more than half the price" is still "much cheaper" when the purchase price in question is over $100K. ;)

Obviously, I'm not trying to talk anyone into buying one, or about to do so myself. I'm backing up a simple, carefully defined statement about the powertrain technology, Mostly because it relates to developments that are relevant to the interests of Mustachians, and will become even more so in coming years.

How does regen work exactly?  Does it engage only when you take your foot off the gas?  Or when you slightly depress the brake?  At what point to the actual brakes engage?

[maco]

How does regen work exactly?  Does it engage only when you take your foot off the gas?  Or when you slightly depress the brake?  At what point to the actual brakes engage?

At least on the Prius, my battery recharges both when the car is slowing as my foot's off the gas and when I press the break gently / steadily. If I slam the brakes to avoid rear-ending someone, THAT is when I can feel the normal brakes engage.

[MrMoogle]

How does regen work exactly?  Does it engage only when you take your foot off the gas?  Or when you slightly depress the brake?  At what point to the actual brakes engage?

At least on the Prius, my battery recharges both when the car is slowing as my foot's off the gas and when I press the break gently / steadily. If I slam the brakes to avoid rear-ending someone, THAT is when I can feel the normal brakes engage.

You can regen nearly as much power as you can apply to accelerate.  When the brakes are kicked in depends on the vehicle, I'm sure.  I'm guessing most of these cars are brake-by-wire now, and that comes into play too.  It has to be a smooth transition.  If you're hypermiling, you'll never use the actual brakes.  If you're like most of the people on the road, you'll use them at every stop. 

I only do some portion of hypermiling with a combustion engine, and I hardly use brakes at all.  I will barely press it so my brake lights come on, and if anything, just engine brake.

[dragoncar]

How does regen work exactly?  Does it engage only when you take your foot off the gas?  Or when you slightly depress the brake?  At what point to the actual brakes engage?

At least on the Prius, my battery recharges both when the car is slowing as my foot's off the gas and when I press the break gently / steadily. If I slam the brakes to avoid rear-ending someone, THAT is when I can feel the normal brakes engage.

You can regen nearly as much power as you can apply to accelerate.  When the brakes are kicked in depends on the vehicle, I'm sure.  I'm guessing most of these cars are brake-by-wire now, and that comes into play too.  It has to be a smooth transition.  If you're hypermiling, you'll never use the actual brakes.  If you're like most of the people on the road, you'll use them at every stop. 

I only do some portion of hypermiling with a combustion engine, and I hardly use brakes at all.  I will barely press it so my brake lights come on, and if anything, just engine brake.

Thanks, I was thinking of a case where you are taking a freeway offramp.  I usually have to brake pretty hard from 60 to zero unless it's a really long offramp or the freeway is empty and I can coast down prior to taking the exit (without getting rear ended)

edit: that's in a regular ICE, never driven an EV or even a hybrid

[JordanOfGilead]

I was going to nitpick that one too, but I then I figured, the costs might actually be higher than other cars (certainly more than a Leaf). The P90D probably has massive low profile, high wear tires. Regen braking might save the brakes, but the pads are probably pretty expensive when they do need replaced.

So it might cost a bit extra to run one despite the low fuel costs.

I really meant to limit my comment to energy/fuel cost comparisons, but WRT the other factors: you'd be surprised how much regen helps, especially if you hypermile. There are current-gen EVs with over 200K miles and original brakes.
I hear the 21" rims eat tires like candy, but the 19" ones do okay.

Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

I'm not sure if this is intended as a rebuttal, but "more than half the price" is still "much cheaper" when the purchase price in question is over $100K. ;)

Obviously, I'm not trying to talk anyone into buying one, or about to do so myself. I'm backing up a simple, carefully defined statement about the powertrain technology, Mostly because it relates to developments that are relevant to the interests of Mustachians, and will become even more so in coming years.

How does regen work exactly?  Does it engage only when you take your foot off the gas?  Or when you slightly depress the brake?  At what point to the actual brakes engage?

If I understand correctly, regen braking has something to do with magnets and induced electrical current through motion near them. It's a no-contact braking system, but in order for it to feed energy back into the battery instead of drawing from it, a sacrifice is made to the braking power when not using the mechanical pad/rotor system. I could be wrong though.

[Pooperman]

I was going to nitpick that one too, but I then I figured, the costs might actually be higher than other cars (certainly more than a Leaf). The P90D probably has massive low profile, high wear tires. Regen braking might save the brakes, but the pads are probably pretty expensive when they do need replaced.

So it might cost a bit extra to run one despite the low fuel costs.

I really meant to limit my comment to energy/fuel cost comparisons, but WRT the other factors: you'd be surprised how much regen helps, especially if you hypermile. There are current-gen EVs with over 200K miles and original brakes.
I hear the 21" rims eat tires like candy, but the 19" ones do okay.

Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

I'm not sure if this is intended as a rebuttal, but "more than half the price" is still "much cheaper" when the purchase price in question is over $100K. ;)

Obviously, I'm not trying to talk anyone into buying one, or about to do so myself. I'm backing up a simple, carefully defined statement about the powertrain technology, Mostly because it relates to developments that are relevant to the interests of Mustachians, and will become even more so in coming years.

How does regen work exactly?  Does it engage only when you take your foot off the gas?  Or when you slightly depress the brake?  At what point to the actual brakes engage?

If I understand correctly, regen braking has something to do with magnets and induced electrical current through motion near them. It's a no-contact braking system, but in order for it to feed energy back into the battery instead of drawing from it, a sacrifice is made to the braking power when not using the mechanical pad/rotor system. I could be wrong though.

Yup. It has an affect where the magnetic induced current creates an opposite magnetic field that attracts the first magnet, helping to slow the rotation. If you've ever take. A magnet and dropped it through a pipe, you've seen this happen.

[maco]

I was going to nitpick that one too, but I then I figured, the costs might actually be higher than other cars (certainly more than a Leaf). The P90D probably has massive low profile, high wear tires. Regen braking might save the brakes, but the pads are probably pretty expensive when they do need replaced.

So it might cost a bit extra to run one despite the low fuel costs.

I really meant to limit my comment to energy/fuel cost comparisons, but WRT the other factors: you'd be surprised how much regen helps, especially if you hypermile. There are current-gen EVs with over 200K miles and original brakes.
I hear the 21" rims eat tires like candy, but the 19" ones do okay.

Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

I'm not sure if this is intended as a rebuttal, but "more than half the price" is still "much cheaper" when the purchase price in question is over $100K. ;)

Obviously, I'm not trying to talk anyone into buying one, or about to do so myself. I'm backing up a simple, carefully defined statement about the powertrain technology, Mostly because it relates to developments that are relevant to the interests of Mustachians, and will become even more so in coming years.

How does regen work exactly?  Does it engage only when you take your foot off the gas?  Or when you slightly depress the brake?  At what point to the actual brakes engage?

If I understand correctly, regen braking has something to do with magnets and induced electrical current through motion near them. It's a no-contact braking system, but in order for it to feed energy back into the battery instead of drawing from it, a sacrifice is made to the braking power when not using the mechanical pad/rotor system. I could be wrong though.

Yup. It has an affect where the magnetic induced current creates an opposite magnetic field that attracts the first magnet, helping to slow the rotation. If you've ever take. A magnet and dropped it through a pipe, you've seen this happen.

Or used one of those flashlights that doesn't have batteries, where you shake it so the magnet slams back and forth through the center coil.

[JordanOfGilead]

I was going to nitpick that one too, but I then I figured, the costs might actually be higher than other cars (certainly more than a Leaf). The P90D probably has massive low profile, high wear tires. Regen braking might save the brakes, but the pads are probably pretty expensive when they do need replaced.

So it might cost a bit extra to run one despite the low fuel costs.

I really meant to limit my comment to energy/fuel cost comparisons, but WRT the other factors: you'd be surprised how much regen helps, especially if you hypermile. There are current-gen EVs with over 200K miles and original brakes.
I hear the 21" rims eat tires like candy, but the 19" ones do okay.

Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

I'm not sure if this is intended as a rebuttal, but "more than half the price" is still "much cheaper" when the purchase price in question is over $100K. ;)

Obviously, I'm not trying to talk anyone into buying one, or about to do so myself. I'm backing up a simple, carefully defined statement about the powertrain technology, Mostly because it relates to developments that are relevant to the interests of Mustachians, and will become even more so in coming years.

How does regen work exactly?  Does it engage only when you take your foot off the gas?  Or when you slightly depress the brake?  At what point to the actual brakes engage?

If I understand correctly, regen braking has something to do with magnets and induced electrical current through motion near them. It's a no-contact braking system, but in order for it to feed energy back into the battery instead of drawing from it, a sacrifice is made to the braking power when not using the mechanical pad/rotor system. I could be wrong though.

Yup. It has an affect where the magnetic induced current creates an opposite magnetic field that attracts the first magnet, helping to slow the rotation. If you've ever take. A magnet and dropped it through a pipe, you've seen this happen.

Or used one of those flashlights that doesn't have batteries, where you shake it so the magnet slams back and forth through the center coil.

Or watched documentaries regarding land speed record vehicles that only use magnetically induced braking because mechanical braking at those speeds almost always explodes.

[nobodyspecial]

the Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

What's a comparable vehicle?
A tesla is about $100k, a conventional Audi is $120-190k, a Porsche 911 is about the same.
You can get a BMW for 1/2 that, but you can also get an electric smart for $30k - I wouldn't necessary call that comparable

[mtn]

the Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

What's a comparable vehicle?
A tesla is about $100k, a conventional Audi is $120-190k, a Porsche 911 is about the same.
You can get a BMW for 1/2 that, but you can also get an electric smart for $30k - I wouldn't necessary call that comparable

On top of that, how long have the Teslas been out? I thought it was around 2011 or 2012. We don't know their 10 year cost of ownership yet.

(I'm ignoring their sportscar, since that was almost a novelty car at the time)

[JordanOfGilead]

the Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

What's a comparable vehicle?
A tesla is about $100k, a conventional Audi is $120-190k, a Porsche 911 is about the same.
You can get a BMW for 1/2 that, but you can also get an electric smart for $30k - I wouldn't necessary call that comparable

If you clicked the link, they compared the Tesla to an unnamed Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicle getting 30mpg with a sticker price of just under 50k. Judging by the tone of the thread on the tesla forum, it was likely something of roughly the same size and level of "luxury." Two clicks and you could have answered your own question and not wasted the space of this back-and-forth.

[JordanOfGilead]

the Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

What's a comparable vehicle?
A tesla is about $100k, a conventional Audi is $120-190k, a Porsche 911 is about the same.
You can get a BMW for 1/2 that, but you can also get an electric smart for $30k - I wouldn't necessary call that comparable

On top of that, how long have the Teslas been out? I thought it was around 2011 or 2012. We don't know their 10 year cost of ownership yet.

(I'm ignoring their sportscar, since that was almost a novelty car at the time)

If you want to argue about the validity of the comparison, go to the Tesla forum. That thread has plenty of that already covered. I was just providing an example of one estimate that I found so that the entire discussion didn't revolve around speculation and actually had some numbers involved.

[mtn]

the Tesla P85D comes out to a higher cost of ownership ofer a 10 year period than a comparable vehicle of half the purchase price.

What's a comparable vehicle?
A tesla is about $100k, a conventional Audi is $120-190k, a Porsche 911 is about the same.
You can get a BMW for 1/2 that, but you can also get an electric smart for $30k - I wouldn't necessary call that comparable

On top of that, how long have the Teslas been out? I thought it was around 2011 or 2012. We don't know their 10 year cost of ownership yet.

(I'm ignoring their sportscar, since that was almost a novelty car at the time)

If you want to argue about the validity of the comparison, go to the Tesla forum. That thread has plenty of that already covered. I was just providing an example of one estimate that I found so that the entire discussion didn't revolve around speculation and actually had some numbers involved.

Nah, more fun to do it here--no need to register for a new forum.

[zephyr911]

How does regen work exactly?  Does it engage only when you take your foot off the gas?  Or when you slightly depress the brake?  At what point to the actual brakes engage?

The exact implementation varies significantly from one vehicle to the next. Many have multiple user-selectable options and even regen paddles on the wheel.
Teslas are configurable for true one-pedal driving that never uses the brake pads if you look ahead and avoid having to stop very fast. Other cars are different.
One generalization you can make: pretty much all EVs (and hybrids) apply at least a small amount of regen at pedal neutral, and none apply friction brakes until at least a moderate amount of brake pedal pressure is applied, except for those with a positive-stop feature that lock the discs at the very end of the stop, even at pedal neutral (i3 and Tesla do this, no others that I know of).
The primary limiting factor to the amount of regen braking force that can be used before friction assist is required, is the size of the battery (via the # of cells in parallel). Thus, the bigger the batteries get, the more regen can replace friction.

[mustachepungoeshere]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

[nanu]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

She's also teaching them that nothing in life is free and allows them to choose between doing a job they don't like or having pocket money, but not both.
Kids need to understand priorities, and it's a good lesson for them.

However, as someone who grew up with two siblings in an apartment with 1.5 bathrooms, having a bathroom per kid (and probably another for the parents) is absurd IMHO.

[Megma]

Coworker today said that he has just accepted that he will carry over a credit card balance every month. A while back this same coworker said that one reason he likes his bank is they don't charge you fee when you overdraw your account up to x times a year, and they normally have an every few months.

What does he do at my company? Finance, naturally.

[Playing with Fire UK]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

I sort of like this. I've met too many entitled adults who will refuse to clean in shared houses because they know that someone else will break first and clean up after them; when I met their parents it all becomes clear. If the colleague knows that they would break first because they can't stand to look at the mess, then taking the pocket money off the kids does make a certain amount of sense. [I'm assuming that option of raising the kids to do what you say has passed already]

[mustachepungoeshere]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

I sort of like this. I've met too many entitled adults who will refuse to clean in shared houses because they know that someone else will break first and clean up after them; when I met their parents it all becomes clear. If the colleague knows that they would break first because they can't stand to look at the mess, then taking the pocket money off the kids does make a certain amount of sense. [I'm assuming that option of raising the kids to do what you say has passed already]

I totally agree about stopping the entitlement early. It's just a shame they won't learn about spending and saving through pocket money. If I was in her shoes, I would strongly be encouraging part-time jobs when they are old enough, so they can have some more hands-on responsibility with money.


Edited for punctuation.

[Kitsune]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

In their shoes, I can absolutely understand taking away pocket money to pay for a cleaner (and let's face it - outsourcing is totally a valid option for a lot of people. Hell, a lot of families outsource cooking when they go to McDonald's. Not saying it's the best option, but...). It also depends on what their pocket money was supposed to pay for, though.

If mom and dad buy brand-name clothes/pay cell phone bills/video games/tablets/toys/new books every day, then taking away an allowance that was ON TOP OF THAT wouldn't teach much (they've already got everything they need and want, and probably more than they can pay attention to, so what's a few bucks less per week?). I can pretty much guarantee that having a phone's text function stop working because 'you can't pay for it because that money is going to the cleaner' would be a pretty clear line for the average teenager who has a phone, for example. Or pointing out to a 12-year-old that the money being used to clean their bathroom would TOTALLY have paid for that video game within 6 weeks, but they had made the choice to not have it, so no video game. And then deal with the fit/sulking/etc and NOT give in.

(Disclaimer: I am a parent and I raised my brother through his early years. What I'm suggesting is NOT easy, but not doing it basically guarantees a spoiled kid who never does chores, and in the long run that's even less easy.)

[Frugalicious]

A coworker is getting divorced.  She is in her early 50s and has a lower level admin job.  Not entry level, but definitely hourly.  She is moving and she said, "I decided to get the three bedroom so that I can keep all of my shoes."

It will just be her living in the apartment.  I've worked with her for five years and I'm not sure she's ever worn the same pair twice.

[dandarc]

A coworker is getting divorced.  She is in her early 50s and has a lower level admin job.  Not entry level, but definitely hourly.  She is moving and she said, "I decided to get the three bedroom so that I can keep all of my shoes."

It will just be her living in the apartment.  I've worked with her for five years and I'm not sure she's ever worn the same pair twice.

That is a lot of shoes.  On the plus side, if she really has enough shoes to fill a 3 bedroom apartment, if she ever gets in a bind, she could sell them and raise quite a bit of dough, even at what I am sure is much less than she paid for them.  Probably well into 4 figures, maybe into 5.  Not the best emergency fund ever, but better than nothing!

Of course a better plan would be to start selling them right now so she can get a smaller place and have a pile of money too.

[I'm a red panda]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

Why is that a bad lesson? Everything CAN be outsourced for a price.  You have to decide if that price is worth it for you.

Clearly these kids would rather have someone else do their cleaning than have pocket money.

Seems like a pretty valuable lesson to teach: "You can't outsource things AND have spending money"

[maco]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

I sort of like this. I've met too many entitled adults who will refuse to clean in shared houses because they know that someone else will break first and clean up after them; when I met their parents it all becomes clear. If the colleague knows that they would break first because they can't stand to look at the mess, then taking the pocket money off the kids does make a certain amount of sense. [I'm assuming that option of raising the kids to do what you say has passed already]

I totally agree about stopping the entitlement early. It's just a shame they won't learn about spending and saving through pocket money. If I was in her shoes, I would strongly be encouraging part-time jobs when they are old enough, so they can have some more hands-on responsibility with money.


Edited for punctuation.

Isn't it kind of unusual to be in high school and not have a part-time job? I can't imagine my $4/mo allowance would've taught me much about money as a kid anyway.

[RyanAtTanagra]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

Why is that a bad lesson? Everything CAN be outsourced for a price.  You have to decide if that price is worth it for you.

Clearly these kids would rather have someone else do their cleaning than have pocket money.

Seems like a pretty valuable lesson to teach: "You can't outsource things AND have spending money"

Like Kitsune said, the problem is if they don't care about the pocket money because they already have everything paid for/bought for them.  Which, if their lifestyle is such that every kid has their own private bathroom, I would be willing to bet they aren't wanting for much.

[JordanOfGilead]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

I sort of like this. I've met too many entitled adults who will refuse to clean in shared houses because they know that someone else will break first and clean up after them; when I met their parents it all becomes clear. If the colleague knows that they would break first because they can't stand to look at the mess, then taking the pocket money off the kids does make a certain amount of sense. [I'm assuming that option of raising the kids to do what you say has passed already]

I totally agree about stopping the entitlement early. It's just a shame they won't learn about spending and saving through pocket money. If I was in her shoes, I would strongly be encouraging part-time jobs when they are old enough, so they can have some more hands-on responsibility with money.


Edited for punctuation.

Isn't it kind of unusual to be in high school and not have a part-time job? I can't imagine my $4/mo allowance would've taught me much about money as a kid anyway.

The only people in my high school with a job were people that drove themselves to school, and even then only about half of the ones that drove had to get a job to pay for it. Let's just say a LOT of kids took the bus ...

[maco]

A colleague explained to me yesterday that her kids don't get pocket money because they refuse to clean their bathrooms. (The kids are eight, 12 and 14 and each have their own bathroom.)

Instead, she uses that money to pay a cleaner.

Pocket money or not, she is just teaching them that everything can be outsourced for a price.

I sort of like this. I've met too many entitled adults who will refuse to clean in shared houses because they know that someone else will break first and clean up after them; when I met their parents it all becomes clear. If the colleague knows that they would break first because they can't stand to look at the mess, then taking the pocket money off the kids does make a certain amount of sense. [I'm assuming that option of raising the kids to do what you say has passed already]

I totally agree about stopping the entitlement early. It's just a shame they won't learn about spending and saving through pocket money. If I was in her shoes, I would strongly be encouraging part-time jobs when they are old enough, so they can have some more hands-on responsibility with money.


Edited for punctuation.

Isn't it kind of unusual to be in high school and not have a part-time job? I can't imagine my $4/mo allowance would've taught me much about money as a kid anyway.

The only people in my high school with a job were people that drove themselves to school, and even then only about half of the ones that drove had to get a job to pay for it. Let's just say a LOT of kids took the bus ...

Wow, I walked to the grocery store next door or ice cream shop down the street after school.

[zephyr911]

Like Kitsune said, the problem is if they don't care about the pocket money because they already have everything paid for/bought for them.  Which, if their lifestyle is such that every kid has their own private bathroom, I would be willing to bet they aren't wanting for much.

That was my first thought.

[saving_dutchman]

I have been following this topic and today I hear something that's worth sharing.

They have an hour lunch break at his company. Apparently most employees go home to have lunch. I spoke to one of them and he said it's a roundtrip of only 14 miles. I think that qualifies as clown car driving. That's €2.80 per day in fuel alone, (2.8*5*44 = €616 per year!)

[zephyr911]

I have been following this topic and today I hear something that's worth sharing.

They have an hour lunch break at his company. Apparently most employees go home to have lunch. I spoke to one of them and he said it's a roundtrip of only 14 miles. I think that qualifies as clown car driving. That's €2.80 per day in fuel alone, (2.8*5*44 = €616 per year!)

Tens of thousands over a long enough timeline, with investment returns.
I used to drive 5 miles home for lunch on occasion, but mostly because I didn't have a yard and my dogs needed walks. I preferred to pay a walker, but sometimes it fell to me.
Fortunately, we don't have that problem anymore. Even that $1 in gas seemed like a waste to me.

[dragoncar]

I have been following this topic and today I hear something that's worth sharing.

They have an hour lunch break at his company. Apparently most employees go home to have lunch. I spoke to one of them and he said it's a roundtrip of only 14 miles. I think that qualifies as clown car driving. That's €2.80 per day in fuel alone, (2.8*5*44 = €616 per year!)

Tens of thousands over a long enough timeline, with investment returns.
I used to drive 5 miles home for lunch on occasion, but mostly because I didn't have a yard and my dogs needed walks. I preferred to pay a walker, but sometimes it fell to me.
Fortunately, we don't have that problem anymore. Even that $1 in gas seemed like a waste to me.

If it means you get to see family or dogs then I'd do it. 

[Pooperman]

So I was talking to a coworker today. The other day, she mentioned how she and her husband have an inexpensive apartment. I ask more about it today when it came up. Theirs is a 2 bedroom, and they use the other bedroom for storage. Ours is a 1 bedroom.  Both were recently renovated. Theirs is in a good school district (they have no children), ours is not (we don't have children). Both towns are nice and safe. They are planning on buying a house soon, so are we (though a couple years from now as compared to next year). They pay $1700/month, we pay $965/month.

$1700/month is not 'cheap'!

[Cookie78]

I have been following this topic and today I hear something that's worth sharing.

They have an hour lunch break at his company. Apparently most employees go home to have lunch. I spoke to one of them and he said it's a roundtrip of only 14 miles. I think that qualifies as clown car driving. That's €2.80 per day in fuel alone, (2.8*5*44 = €616 per year!)

Tens of thousands over a long enough timeline, with investment returns.
I used to drive 5 miles home for lunch on occasion, but mostly because I didn't have a yard and my dogs needed walks. I preferred to pay a walker, but sometimes it fell to me.
Fortunately, we don't have that problem anymore. Even that $1 in gas seemed like a waste to me.

If it means you get to see family or dogs then I'd do it.

I used to do it every day (5km each way) to let my dog out to pee when he was a puppy. Also even after he was old enough it was still sooooo refreshing to hang out in my own house before going back for the afternoon. It was all pre-FIRE-ambitions of course, but I don't regret it. Also, about 80% of the time I tacked on some field work in that general direction and work paid 52c/km for my mileage. Luckily my house was nearly directly on the way to the area of the city where I did field work.

[jinga nation]

Isn't it kind of unusual to be in high school and not have a part-time job? I can't imagine my $4/mo allowance would've taught me much about money as a kid anyway.

Where I grew up, high school kids didn't work. There was plenty of after-school activities such as in-school sport competitions, outside sports, clubs, etc. School was 8am-4pm, end up getting home after 6pm.
When I moved to the US for university, I didn't understand the need to work when in high school; you'll be working anyway after you graduate. I ended up working part-time on and off-campus.
But now I've come to realize that high schoolers add to family income, while learning skills that will help over the years.

[fattest_foot]

I have been following this topic and today I hear something that's worth sharing.

They have an hour lunch break at his company. Apparently most employees go home to have lunch. I spoke to one of them and he said it's a roundtrip of only 14 miles. I think that qualifies as clown car driving. That's €2.80 per day in fuel alone, (2.8*5*44 = €616 per year!)

Tens of thousands over a long enough timeline, with investment returns.
I used to drive 5 miles home for lunch on occasion, but mostly because I didn't have a yard and my dogs needed walks. I preferred to pay a walker, but sometimes it fell to me.
Fortunately, we don't have that problem anymore. Even that $1 in gas seemed like a waste to me.

If it means you get to see family or dogs then I'd do it.

I used to do it every day (5km each way) to let my dog out to pee when he was a puppy. Also even after he was old enough it was still sooooo refreshing to hang out in my own house before going back for the afternoon. It was all pre-FIRE-ambitions of course, but I don't regret it. Also, about 80% of the time I tacked on some field work in that general direction and work paid 52c/km for my mileage. Luckily my house was nearly directly on the way to the area of the city where I did field work.

I do this, and I'm fine with the cost. I live about 3 miles from work, but I like being able to see the dog for 45 minutes or so every working day. At current fuel prices, I'm spending about $120 a year.

[saving_dutchman]

I have been following this topic and today I hear something that's worth sharing.

They have an hour lunch break at his company. Apparently most employees go home to have lunch. I spoke to one of them and he said it's a roundtrip of only 14 miles. I think that qualifies as clown car driving. That's €2.80 per day in fuel alone, (2.8*5*44 = €616 per year!)

Tens of thousands over a long enough timeline, with investment returns.
I used to drive 5 miles home for lunch on occasion, but mostly because I didn't have a yard and my dogs needed walks. I preferred to pay a walker, but sometimes it fell to me.
Fortunately, we don't have that problem anymore. Even that $1 in gas seemed like a waste to me.

If it means you get to see family or dogs then I'd do it.

I used to do it every day (5km each way) to let my dog out to pee when he was a puppy. Also even after he was old enough it was still sooooo refreshing to hang out in my own house before going back for the afternoon. It was all pre-FIRE-ambitions of course, but I don't regret it. Also, about 80% of the time I tacked on some field work in that general direction and work paid 52c/km for my mileage. Luckily my house was nearly directly on the way to the area of the city where I did field work.

I do this, and I'm fine with the cost. I live about 3 miles from work, but I like being able to see the dog for 45 minutes or so every working day. At current fuel prices, I'm spending about $120 a year.

If you put it like that it's a conscious anti-mustachian choice and it becomes a different story I think. It's not solely for the purpose of food you are also spending time with the dog. If you have small children or a SO at home I can imagine you want to see them at lunch.

I used to go home for lunch when I was as at university but I lived only 5 min away by bicycle.

[Apples]

I have been following this topic and today I hear something that's worth sharing.

They have an hour lunch break at his company. Apparently most employees go home to have lunch. I spoke to one of them and he said it's a roundtrip of only 14 miles. I think that qualifies as clown car driving. That's €2.80 per day in fuel alone, (2.8*5*44 = €616 per year!)

Tens of thousands over a long enough timeline, with investment returns.
I used to drive 5 miles home for lunch on occasion, but mostly because I didn't have a yard and my dogs needed walks. I preferred to pay a walker, but sometimes it fell to me.
Fortunately, we don't have that problem anymore. Even that $1 in gas seemed like a waste to me.

If it means you get to see family or dogs then I'd do it.

I used to do it every day (5km each way) to let my dog out to pee when he was a puppy. Also even after he was old enough it was still sooooo refreshing to hang out in my own house before going back for the afternoon. It was all pre-FIRE-ambitions of course, but I don't regret it. Also, about 80% of the time I tacked on some field work in that general direction and work paid 52c/km for my mileage. Luckily my house was nearly directly on the way to the area of the city where I did field work.

I do this, and I'm fine with the cost. I live about 3 miles from work, but I like being able to see the dog for 45 minutes or so every working day. At current fuel prices, I'm spending about $120 a year.

If you put it like that it's a conscious anti-mustachian choice and it becomes a different story I think. It's not solely for the purpose of food you are also spending time with the dog. If you have small children or a SO at home I can imagine you want to see them at lunch.

I used to go home for lunch when I was as at university but I lived only 5 min away by bicycle.

I also go home for lunch.  It's a 2 mile drive (you haven't seen these roads, hell will freeze over before anyone commutes by bike on one of them...the most you ever see is a Saturday morning cycling group once a month).  I see our dog and let him out, and get things out and ready for dinner that need to thaw.  But really I do it because it's my one guaranteed hour (or 40 mins in reality) of quiet guaranteed for me every day.  We don't even have kids yet and I love my lunch hour.  Also, since I don't work in an office, it's my one hour a day to do things like call the utility/cable company/bank about an issue or question while they're open.  Using a company vehicle and gas I technically don't pay anything to do it, but I would totally pay $500 or $1,000 per year just to get my quiet hour and the ability to get things done.

[LennStar]

*BOOM* *scrapes off brain from wall and give it to your friends*

Let me guess they dont "believe" in climate change? Or not wasting money on things you dont even use for that pont.

[zephyr911]

If it means you get to see family or dogs then I'd do it.

I used to do it every day (5km each way) to let my dog out to pee when he was a puppy. Also even after he was old enough it was still sooooo refreshing to hang out in my own house before going back for the afternoon. It was all pre-FIRE-ambitions of course, but I don't regret it. Also, about 80% of the time I tacked on some field work in that general direction and work paid 52c/km for my mileage. Luckily my house was nearly directly on the way to the area of the city where I did field work.

I do this, and I'm fine with the cost. I live about 3 miles from work, but I like being able to see the dog for 45 minutes or so every working day. At current fuel prices, I'm spending about $120 a year.

If you put it like that it's a conscious anti-mustachian choice and it becomes a different story I think. It's not solely for the purpose of food you are also spending time with the dog. If you have small children or a SO at home I can imagine you want to see them at lunch.

For part of that period, DW was also at home because she'd just graduated and was job-hunting, which made it even nicer... but my lunch is only 30min officially so I was kinda pushing my luck. Agree that it's a sweet luxury if you can make it work. I love leaving the office long enough to get out of the work mindset. Our modern business culture really wants you to get in work mode for 9-12 hours a day and never shift gears... I think it's unhealthy as hell.

It was also super warm at night because they had the thermostat in the living room set to 80. I turned it down to 50 before I slept because I was almost sweating in my t-shirt and shorts (I never thought I'd wear shorts in winter), and when I woke up the next morning, someone had turned it back to 80.

We stayed with friends on the weekend and it had been above 70 all day there, so I assumed the vent noise I heard Friday night was the AC just to keep the edge off the heat... I was so warm that I had trouble sleeping. Up at 5:30AM to get ready for drill, I actually opened some doors and was breathing a sigh of relief at the lovely fresh air rolling into the house, until I heard the air kick on again and finally realized it was the heat.
Oddly, the 'stat appeared to be set to only 72... I turned it down a few and it stayed there, AFAIK.

[Papa Mustache]

There CW stories:

Was part of a meeting yesterday and CW1 asked if I had played with some social media app that CW1 recommended. Nothing I'd use b/c I don't do social media. However I pointed out that i could not get it to work b/c my phone must be too "old". Figured that would be the easy way out of the topic.

"What? Don't you have an iPhone 6???" CW1 asked very surprised... By her pained expression you'd think I just said I let a toddler play with knives.

I considered explaining the $10 pay-as-you-go plan I use, my $30 (now 6mos old) Android phone and then just let it drop.

CW2 chimed in that her family decided everyone got new iPhones for Christmas every year. All of them. All five or so of them. You know - the mainstream cell contract package deal. Wondered what that costs - $2000 a year? I dunno. They probably use the heck out of the social media capability. Both CWs are into that in a big way. Whatever makes them happy.

- - - -

Another coworker expressed a satisfaction that it was nice to have money left over each month due to some spending changes they have made after 20+ years of well-paid employment. They are going to need to see a financial counselor about best strategies. I started to open up about MMM but thought better of it due to other participants in the discussion. Maybe later. The other participants would likely want to debate the merits. I'm rather private about my personal choices at work.

[dandarc]

They probably use the heck out of the social media capability. Both CWs are into that in a big way. Whatever makes them happy.

At the company holiday party last night, one couple was just going on and on about perceived Facebook slights from people I don't know.  Don't get it.  At all.  Wife and I also got more pressure about having kids than we've gotten even from our own mothers.  To the point we both separately got up and went elsewhere for a few minutes to get away from the conversation.  Food and drink were pretty good at least.

[Mr Dumpster Stache]

My coworker was telling me about an online purchase she made that she attempted to cancel, and how she then got a notification that it shipped anyway. She checked her bank and saw that the money had not left her account yet. Her mom advised her not to spend the money, as it might still go through.

"I'm going to spend it anyway. An overdraft is basically just like a high interest loan."

[I'm a red panda]

My boss was a bit shocked when I told him I couldn't help QC the content of an app because my phone won't download it. (It requires iOS8, and my phone won't update past 7... the iphone 4 is no longer supported).

Not sure what I'm supposed to do, as this is a major factor in what I do for work.  What sucks is I may have to upgrade or else get a company phone. But if I get a company phone I lose my $40 a month subsidy which currently covers my bill. 

I think the 4S might still be supported, maybe I could find one of those.

[RWD]

My coworker was telling me about an online purchase she made that she attempted to cancel, and how she then got a notification that it shipped anyway. She checked her bank and saw that the money had not left her account yet. Her mom advised her not to spend the money, as it might still go through.

"I'm going to spend it anyway. An overdraft is basically just like a high interest loan."

Wow.... A high interest loan is also very bad.

[MoonShadow]

My coworker was telling me about an online purchase she made that she attempted to cancel, and how she then got a notification that it shipped anyway. She checked her bank and saw that the money had not left her account yet. Her mom advised her not to spend the money, as it might still go through.

"I'm going to spend it anyway. An overdraft is basically just like a high interest loan."

A very high interest loan, in many cases.