Overheard at Work

[theadvicist]

I knew you could finance furniture but I've never actually heard of anybody doing it. Most of ours comes from college dumpsters. You'd be surprised what kids throw away after Finals Week.

As with many industries, financing is a key strategy for increasing sales in a cash-poor society. 0% for 6 months, 12 months, or more is common, and is prominently featured in advertising. You can even rent-to-own, which makes credit cards look like a smart play by comparison.

Yep, I know a guy who owns a furniture business. He once told me, in all seriousness, "I don't sell furniture, I sell finance".

[greenmimama]

I knew you could finance furniture but I've never actually heard of anybody doing it. Most of ours comes from college dumpsters. You'd be surprised what kids throw away after Finals Week.

As with many industries, financing is a key strategy for increasing sales in a cash-poor society. 0% for 6 months, 12 months, or more is common, and is prominently featured in advertising. You can even rent-to-own, which makes credit cards look like a smart play by comparison.

Yep, I know a guy who owns a furniture business. He once told me, in all seriousness, "I don't sell furniture, I sell finance".

Just like Sears, they are a bank disguised as a big box store. Many others like them, they make more off of their financing than everything else they sell combined.

[fb132]

I knew you could finance furniture but I've never actually heard of anybody doing it. Most of ours comes from college dumpsters. You'd be surprised what kids throw away after Finals Week.

As with many industries, financing is a key strategy for increasing sales in a cash-poor society. 0% for 6 months, 12 months, or more is common, and is prominently featured in advertising. You can even rent-to-own, which makes credit cards look like a smart play by comparison.

Yep, I know a guy who owns a furniture business. He once told me, in all seriousness, "I don't sell furniture, I sell finance".

Well he is right, samething with car salesmen, they are not selling a car, they sell finance.

[arebelspy]

I knew you could finance furniture but I've never actually heard of anybody doing it. Most of ours comes from college dumpsters. You'd be surprised what kids throw away after Finals Week.

As with many industries, financing is a key strategy for increasing sales in a cash-poor society. 0% for 6 months, 12 months, or more is common, and is prominently featured in advertising. You can even rent-to-own, which makes credit cards look like a smart play by comparison.

Yep, I know a guy who owns a furniture business. He once told me, in all seriousness, "I don't sell furniture, I sell finance".

Well he is right, samething with car salesmen, they are not selling a car, they sell finance.

Well.... sort of.  In the same way that McDonald's isn't a burger company, but is a real estate company.

The underlying product still needs to be something people want, and you still have to sell it to them.  You just may make a lot of your money a different way than the product.

[Sam E]

I knew you could finance furniture but I've never actually heard of anybody doing it. Most of ours comes from college dumpsters. You'd be surprised what kids throw away after Finals Week.

As with many industries, financing is a key strategy for increasing sales in a cash-poor society. 0% for 6 months, 12 months, or more is common, and is prominently featured in advertising. You can even rent-to-own, which makes credit cards look like a smart play by comparison.

I've actually made use of these types of credit lines before in order to make my budget run a bit more smoothly and keep from emptying out my bank account for something so expensive, but only when I was 100% guaranteed to pay it off well before the 0% period expired. Most people don't make those kinds of plans, though, so the companies make a killing offering attractive grace periods to people who think "0% interest and no minimum payment for 6 months" means "You don't have to start paying anything back until 6 months from now."

[fb132]

I knew you could finance furniture but I've never actually heard of anybody doing it. Most of ours comes from college dumpsters. You'd be surprised what kids throw away after Finals Week.

As with many industries, financing is a key strategy for increasing sales in a cash-poor society. 0% for 6 months, 12 months, or more is common, and is prominently featured in advertising. You can even rent-to-own, which makes credit cards look like a smart play by comparison.

Yep, I know a guy who owns a furniture business. He once told me, in all seriousness, "I don't sell furniture, I sell finance".

Well he is right, samething with car salesmen, they are not selling a car, they sell finance.

Well.... sort of.  In the same way that McDonald's isn't a burger company, but is a real estate company.

The underlying product still needs to be something people want, and you still have to sell it to them.  You just may make a lot of your money a different way than the product.

True, but the almighty dollar wins, so the salesmen would prefer to sell a car on someone who is broke than someone who wants to pay it cash. Not sure if it's true, but I read somewhere that when someone buys a car in cash, the profit margin is very low (under 10%).

[zephyr911]

I've actually made use of these types of credit lines before in order to make my budget run a bit more smoothly and keep from emptying out my bank account for something so expensive, but only when I was 100% guaranteed to pay it off well before the 0% period expired. Most people don't make those kinds of plans, though, so the companies make a killing offering attractive grace periods to people who think "0% interest and no minimum payment for 6 months" means "You don't have to start paying anything back until 6 months from now."

Hell, I do it all the time. I have $16K parked on a 1-year, $0-fee, 0%-APR cash advance right now for a solar array that goes in next week. The system has a projected ROI of 7-8% and will be paid off or rolled into my mortgage before the promo expires.
If you use cheap credit to increase investments and better your long-term outcome, it's a great tool. If you use it to dig yourself deeper into debt buying things you can't afford, it's an anchor around the necks of the drowning. Unfortunately, such deals only exist because most people are in the latter category. IOW, the house wins on average, because the game wouldn't exist if it didn't.

[Redstone5]

CW 1: I found a great old truck for sale.
CW 2: Sounds like a real gas hog.
CW 1: It's not about the gas.

I just hope he meant that he's buying it to fix up and then sell to someone else to pay to drive it.

This is very unusual, fortunately. Everyone else at my work is very mustachian. Everyone packs lunches and the bike rack outside is full every day.

[mm1970]

Regardless of the safety of your various non-stick pans, they just plain suck. Fuck em!

Boosting cast iron, slamming non-stick AND gratuitous swearing? I think you're my spirit sibling.

I super tried to live without non-stick.  Managed for about 6 months.  But I just couldn't live without the occasional pan of fried potatoes, and my cast iron doesn't work too great for that.

Plus my cast iron griddle looks like it's chipping?

Anyway.

[Vorpal]

CW 1: I found a great old truck for sale.
CW 2: Sounds like a real gas hog.
CW 1: It's not about the gas.

I just hope he meant that he's buying it to fix up and then sell to someone else to pay to drive it.

This is very unusual, fortunately. Everyone else at my work is very mustachian. Everyone packs lunches and the bike rack outside is full every day.

Maybe it's a classic truck. Then it truly isn't about the gas, because it likely won't be a daily driver.

[mm1970]

(It amazes me when finding errors in people's pay. When pay checks are short, the people are quick to say something, but when they get too much they never make a sound.)

Just for the record, I received a paycheck that was 10 times the correct amount when my employer switched to a new payroll system some years ago.

And I went straight to accounting to get it sorted out.

I still have a photo-copy of that check somewhere.   I figured I would never see another $36,000 paycheck for half a month's work again in my lifetime.

When I was first in the Navy, I lived in DC.  You get a lot of VHA in DC.  I didn't *quite* understand the whole VHA thing - but when it was explained to me, it was explained as "they add your BAQ and max VHA.  If your rent is above that, you keep it.  If your rent is below that, you keep half the difference."  So my rent was less because I rented a cold room in a dank basement. I went to my Milpers office and told them that I thought I was being overpaid.  They said "oh no, they are just trying to max out your VHA."

Okay, I was a dumb ensign.

Anyway, 9 months later I am transferred to my schooling in Pittsburgh.  THAT'S when they look at my info and realize they have been overpaying me - sum total to date has been $900 (you know, that was a lot in 1992, my rent was $308.33).  We agreed that they would take $150 out per month for 6 months.  We took care of the first month in DC.

Well, Pittsburgh milpers didn't get the memo.  My very first paycheck?  $0.00.  Good thing that I had savings, and got a tax refund.

[jba302]

I work with a girl that recently married into money (she was far from poor but now is very wealthy).
She crashed her car last week, a $70k German coupe. It was completely her fault though the damage was relatively minor (scuffed and dented door and wing).  There's only maybe $2k damage.

She is trying to convince her new husband to buy her a $160k range rover (trading in her car without getting it repaired) because she doesn't feel safe in her car any more.

completely her fault

she doesn't feel safe in her car any more.

completely her fault

[dragoncar]

Non-stick pans (of any stripe) aren't safe, according to growing scientific evidence on the larger chemical group (PFAS). Google "the Madrid Statement" or for an example: http://greensciencepolicy.org/madrid-statement/

Plus, I honestly hate cooking on them. I use cast iron skillets for much of my cooking, and used either enameled cast-iron or tri-ply stainless for things like acidic sauces that don't play nice with plain iron.

Seasoned cast iron that's taken care of (don't wash with soap, dry immediately, wipe with oil if necessary) properly is a vastly superior "non-stick" surface, cheaper, and lasts basically forever. It's like the ultimate Mustachian cookware.

Does that include so called "ceramic" nonstick?  They say PFOA or PTFE, but perhaps they still use some PF? 

Anyways, I don't believe that seasoned cast iron is safe.  If has a chemical coating as well, but you make it yourself out of a homemade varnish.

I grew up in the town where Teflon was made and now have to have medical monitoring for the rest of my life for a range of conditions due to the water pollution they caused. So I will stick to my cast iron and stainless steel. The only "chemical varnish" is one made of cooking oil and heat. Seems less likely to cause cancer.

Yeah, I know a guy who used to work near an old coal mine -- died of lung cancer.  That's why I don't use electricity.

[ash7962]

Ok I have a fun story from work, but its not overheard since (sorry).  I work for a very small company (30 people), and I arrange a 401k frontload situation with the guy who does payroll (a lawyer, not an accountant).  We make it so I'm still contributing an amount from my regular paychecks to receive the full match, and I'm told I won't receive a match on the 401k front load.  Its all well and good until I get my bonus paystub and see I was matched a seemingly random amount.  We go back and forth for about a month where he's trying to tell me how he calculated it but his calculations don't match my numbers.  Finally he tells me that he matched me based on the percentage of the max 401k contributions.  Meaning he did (my frontload/18,000) = x%, and the x% was applied to the max match I could receive based on my salary.  I then tell him that my paychecks are still getting matched for the max amount, and if that continues then in May they will have over matched me.  He tells me that he will stop matching my 401k contributions when I reach the max match.  At this point I stop trying to figure out his reasoning behind this method, and just decide to audit all my paystubs to make sure I am receiving the correct match.  Not a super crazy story, but sometimes I still scratch my head and wonder why he came up with this random 401k match payment plan.  It makes 0 sense to me.

In summary: payroll guy says my frontloaded 401k contribution won't be matched which turns out to be a lie.  He matches 401k frontload by an arbitrary amount, can't explain to me why it was done that way, and then matches less than half my paycheck contributions throughout the year.

[Sibley]

Oh my god...

What do you consider your professional responsibility here?  Do you tell them...? Or do you just back slowly away?

If it's a tax return that I'm preparing, I don't truck with that. I tell them I can't sign a tax return I know is incorrect. If I prepared it and it's already submitted and I find out they misled me, then I'll tell them to amend and frankly would probably dump them as a client. I don't usually assume my clients know what they're doing, so I can usually detect garbage bookkeeping prior to filing - unless they were deliberately obfuscating.

In this case, where I didn't prepare it and am arriving on the scene after the fact - my professional responsibility is to inform them that they should amend their return. But that's it. I'm actually not allowed to do much more than that.

I do find it amusing that they INFLATED their income. Completely the opposite of what most people do.

[gimp]

Regardless of the safety of your various non-stick pans, they just plain suck. Fuck em!

Boosting cast iron, slamming non-stick AND gratuitous swearing? I think you're my spirit sibling.

I super tried to live without non-stick.  Managed for about 6 months.  But I just couldn't live without the occasional pan of fried potatoes, and my cast iron doesn't work too great for that.

Plus my cast iron griddle looks like it's chipping?

Anyway.

Cast irons make the best fried potatoes. What'd you do???

And how'd you chip the bloody thing? (Seriously though, was it a pan from lodge? Because if so, go email 'em and they'll probably refund you. Lodge stuff doesn't really break, or at least it shouldn't.) Also, when you say griddle... there are a lot of things that fall under the category, I am wondering what exactly you're using (mostly because I am trying to figure out how your fried potatoes don't rock!)

[cpa cat]

I do find it amusing that they INFLATED their income. Completely the opposite of what most people do.

I was pretty tempted to respond with, "Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you lived in OPPOSITE LAND!"

Actually, that Jackie Chan picture posted above is a pretty good representation of what really happened to me.

[Papa Mustache]

Someone bought a brand new car because the battery in their current car (2 years old, I think) needed replaced.

What is this I don't even

I just replaced the battery in my 18 year old car.  And that battery was four years old.

My battery in my daily driver has consistently lasted 6+ years. Don't know if it is the brand or where I live. I will say I cheaped out and bought a discount battery from one of the national FLAPS (friendly local auto parts store) for our other car and it lasted only about two or three years. Was still under partial warranty but still why does one brand last so long while the other lasts such a short time.

Had a coworker making less than $10 an hour years ago that replaced a whole car over a thermostat (~$10 part). She came to work driving her new brand X car. Nice thing. I asked her what happened to the old car - sometimes I've fallen into some deals by buying the old car outright just b/c they don't want to deal with selling the old car*.

She reported that the car was not warming up very well and the temp was fluctuating high and low and the fuel economy was down a little. The local brand X dealer mechanic told her that she needed a new engine (!!!) and she thought it was better just to buy a new car. Not a used car, but a new car. And a much nicer car than the old car which was more or less in the middle of the product range. I was silently very angry with that dealer b/c they lied to her and she couldn't afford it.

At first I wanted to teach her about what they had done to her and then knowing how some folks get hostile about their decisions being questioned - I decided to let that conversational dog just sleep. All the reasons poor people stay poor boggles my mind.

Have bought several cars for cheap b/c people were sending them to the crusher b/c they didn't want to fix them. One friend bought one for $50 that he later sold to me for $150. He drove it 3 years, and I drove it for 18 months and traded it for a project car that needed less than $75 of TLC before I resold it for $850 or $900. Intercepted a little GM S-10 p/u going to the crusher b/c the engine was junk the owner was assured by a mechanic. The engine was just full of sludge b/c it was never serviced regularly as he was supposed to do. Changed the oil a couple of times over the 250 miles of my ownership and literally hosed out the interior with a garden hose. It was a rolling trash can with that much trash in it. Scrubbed the carpets and seat with a tire brush and it looked GOOD. Unintentionally sold it within a day or so to a friend who needed a little truck b/c his own engine was toast. Over the course of a year or so I guess - he changed the oil and filter frequently and managed to resurrect that engine. It is still a good daily driver today for him years later. My windfall went to pay down a child dental expense that happened about the same time.

[Papa Mustache]

Someone bought a brand new car because the battery in their current car (2 years old, I think) needed replaced.

What is this I don't even

I just replaced the battery in my 18 year old car.  And that battery was four years old.

Someone bought a brand new car because the battery in their current car (2 years old, I think) needed replaced.

What is this I don't even

I just replaced the battery in my 18 year old car.  And that battery was four years old.

My battery in my daily driver has consistently lasted 6+ years. Don't know if it is the brand or where I live. I will say I cheaped out and bought a discount battery from one of the national FLAPS (friendly local auto parts store) for our other car and it lasted only about two or three years. Was still under partial warranty but still why does one brand last so long while the other lasts such a short time.

Had a coworker making less than $10 an hour years ago that replaced a whole car over a thermostat (~$10 part). She came to work driving her new brand X car. Nice thing. I asked her what happened to the old car - sometimes I've fallen into some deals by buying the old car outright just b/c they don't want to deal with selling the old car*.

She reported that the car was not warming up very well and the temp was fluctuating high and low and the fuel economy was down a little. The local brand X dealer mechanic told her that she needed a new engine (!!!) and she thought it was better just to buy a new car. Not a used car, but a new car. And a much nicer car than the old car which was more or less in the middle of the product range. I was silently very angry with that dealer b/c they lied to her and she couldn't afford it.

At first I wanted to teach her about what they had done to her and then knowing how some folks get hostile about their decisions being questioned - I decided to let that conversational dog just sleep. All the reasons poor people stay poor boggles my mind.

[hernandz]

How does a Payroll department deal with it though? If a check goes bad in 180 days or whatever and you wait too long, will you be able to access the money? Will you be able to access it quickly (as is the point of a rainy day fund)? Or worst case scenario, what if you leave the company/the company folds?

It just seems incredibly dangerous.

Every state has a department that "holds onto" the money represented by those uncashed paychecks and other types of dormant accounts, known as unclaimed property.

As a person who has always lived in New York, I was able to get an $2,000 insurance reimbursement check that I had somehow lost and never deposited. New York helpfully has a registry you can search online, and then fill out a form with more of your details to prove you are entitled to the money.  Many states put out advertisements in a local paper about dormant accounts.  While there are 3rd parties that will search and claim on your behalf, that's not a very Mustachian way to go. 

[Papa Mustache]

*Back to normal voice* Btw that really disgusts me that she is both complaining about voluntarily spending huge sums of cash and at the same time clearly bragging about it...blecchhh.

Witnessed a coworker doing that bragging thing about his sportscar and his big boy toys one day to a second coworker.

Employee one makes six digits. Employee two makes about $30K and works multiple jobs.

That was the day that I felt I had seen the true colors of employee 1 for the first time.

[Papa Mustache]

Community College!

He also doesn't like engineering and has no major

Doesn't even have a full schedule of classes because he had to enroll late after returning from expensive out of state school.  30k flushed down to commode!

Heard about a middle aged fellow I grew up with. Life is a mess, living with Mom and Dad literally in the basement. Has missed class registration at the local community college several semesters in a row. Can't seem to get it together and get over there in time. Doesn't work so presumably has time on his hands.

The whole family has caused eye strain in the people around them b/c of the way they've handled their money and lives. Entertaining though.

[Zikoris]

Regardless of the safety of your various non-stick pans, they just plain suck. Fuck em!

Boosting cast iron, slamming non-stick AND gratuitous swearing? I think you're my spirit sibling.

I super tried to live without non-stick.  Managed for about 6 months.  But I just couldn't live without the occasional pan of fried potatoes, and my cast iron doesn't work too great for that.

Plus my cast iron griddle looks like it's chipping?

Anyway.

I replaced my teflon pans with ceramic a few years ago and it seems to work well - definitely does a good job on fried potatoes when I make those.

[seanc0x0]

I just replaced the battery in my 18 year old car.  And that battery was four years old.

My battery in my daily driver has consistently lasted 6+ years. Don't know if it is the brand or where I live. I will say I cheaped out and bought a discount battery from one of the national FLAPS (friendly local auto parts store) for our other car and it lasted only about two or three years. Was still under partial warranty but still why does one brand last so long while the other lasts such a short time.

We had to replace the battery in our 2008 Honda Fit for the first time this winter. It's a teeny tiny battery, but it lasted through almost 7 winters before starting to have trouble starting the car in the cold.  It gets really cold here too, usually below -40 several times throughout the winter.  Only complaint is Honda uses a proprietary battery for this car, so we had to pay a bit more than I'd have liked. Still cheaper than having a bigger car, though!

[mm1970]

Regardless of the safety of your various non-stick pans, they just plain suck. Fuck em!

Boosting cast iron, slamming non-stick AND gratuitous swearing? I think you're my spirit sibling.

I super tried to live without non-stick.  Managed for about 6 months.  But I just couldn't live without the occasional pan of fried potatoes, and my cast iron doesn't work too great for that.

Plus my cast iron griddle looks like it's chipping?

Anyway.

Cast irons make the best fried potatoes. What'd you do???

And how'd you chip the bloody thing? (Seriously though, was it a pan from lodge? Because if so, go email 'em and they'll probably refund you. Lodge stuff doesn't really break, or at least it shouldn't.) Also, when you say griddle... there are a lot of things that fall under the category, I am wondering what exactly you're using (mostly because I am trying to figure out how your fried potatoes don't rock!)

Um, it's like a 2-burner cast iron griddle that we probably got from sears 10 years ago. One side is flat (for pancakes, grilled cheese, etc), and the other side is ridged (for meats, and we don't use that side).

It's probably a lodge?

looks like this
https://www.katom.com/261-LPG13.html?zmam=29342707&zmas=1&zmac=32&zmap=261-LPG13&utm_source=google&utm_medium=adwords&utm_campaign=CSE&gclid=CJmSp9rF5cUCFQSVfgodsBEARw

[gimp]

I don't like griddles much. Too weird. One side is useless.

http://www.chowstatic.com/assets/models/product_photos/images/172/original/100413_lodge_pan_1.jpg for all your needs. That's my opinion. I also use a dutch oven.

[SailorGirl]

Ok I have a fun story from work, but its not overheard since (sorry).  I work for a very small company (30 people), and I arrange a 401k frontload situation with the guy who does payroll (a lawyer, not an accountant).  We make it so I'm still contributing an amount from my regular paychecks to receive the full match, and I'm told I won't receive a match on the 401k front load.  Its all well and good until I get my bonus paystub and see I was matched a seemingly random amount.  We go back and forth for about a month where he's trying to tell me how he calculated it but his calculations don't match my numbers.  Finally he tells me that he matched me based on the percentage of the max 401k contributions.  Meaning he did (my frontload/18,000) = x%, and the x% was applied to the max match I could receive based on my salary.  I then tell him that my paychecks are still getting matched for the max amount, and if that continues then in May they will have over matched me.  He tells me that he will stop matching my 401k contributions when I reach the max match.  At this point I stop trying to figure out his reasoning behind this method, and just decide to audit all my paystubs to make sure I am receiving the correct match.  Not a super crazy story, but sometimes I still scratch my head and wonder why he came up with this random 401k match payment plan.  It makes 0 sense to me.

In summary: payroll guy says my frontloaded 401k contribution won't be matched which turns out to be a lie.  He matches 401k frontload by an arbitrary amount, can't explain to me why it was done that way, and then matches less than half my paycheck contributions throughout the year.

I worked for a small company for a six month period that spanned calendar years.  Was informed that their retirement system was set up to do a lumps sum deposit if you set up your paycheck to put x% into it.  So I got three percent of my (would be) annual salary deposited the first month, and another 3% deposited in January.  Got fired in April or so meaning I almost doubled my salary, half to retirement and half to me.  It didn't sound right to me but I certainly wasn't going to argue.

[chicagomeg]

Non-stick pans (of any stripe) aren't safe, according to growing scientific evidence on the larger chemical group (PFAS). Google "the Madrid Statement" or for an example: http://greensciencepolicy.org/madrid-statement/

Plus, I honestly hate cooking on them. I use cast iron skillets for much of my cooking, and used either enameled cast-iron or tri-ply stainless for things like acidic sauces that don't play nice with plain iron.

Seasoned cast iron that's taken care of (don't wash with soap, dry immediately, wipe with oil if necessary) properly is a vastly superior "non-stick" surface, cheaper, and lasts basically forever. It's like the ultimate Mustachian cookware.

Does that include so called "ceramic" nonstick?  They say PFOA or PTFE, but perhaps they still use some PF? 

Anyways, I don't believe that seasoned cast iron is safe.  If has a chemical coating as well, but you make it yourself out of a homemade varnish.

I grew up in the town where Teflon was made and now have to have medical monitoring for the rest of my life for a range of conditions due to the water pollution they caused. So I will stick to my cast iron and stainless steel. The only "chemical varnish" is one made of cooking oil and heat. Seems less likely to cause cancer.

Yeah, I know a guy who used to work near an old coal mine -- died of lung cancer.  That's why I don't use electricity.

Except it's pretty hard not to use electricity and pretty easy to not use pans made of chemicals that cause cancer.

[theadvicist]

Yeah, I know a guy who used to work near an old coal mine -- died of lung cancer.  That's why I don't use electricity.

And they're just not comparable examples.

If you said, "I know a guy who used to work near an old coal mine -- died of lung cancer. That's why I don't burn coal in my open fire", I'd think, hmm, maybe a bit overcautious, but whatever.

But to compare it to Teflon - where the chemicals applied to the pans you cook on are the ones that have necessitated the health monitoring - is not the same thing at all.

[Sam E]

Yeah, I know a guy who used to work near an old coal mine -- died of lung cancer.  That's why I don't use electricity.

And they're just not comparable examples.

If you said, "I know a guy who used to work near an old coal mine -- died of lung cancer. That's why I don't burn coal in my open fire", I'd think, hmm, maybe a bit overcautious, but whatever.

But to compare it to Teflon - where the chemicals applied to the pans you cook on are the ones that have necessitated the health monitoring - is not the same thing at all.

The chemical ingredients and byproducts are what contaminated the water. All I've seen is reports that workers and people exposed to the process of making Teflon have had health issues directly linked to that. I don't see any reports or studies saying that the actual finished product is unsafe or linked to any health problems.

The thing about chemicals is that when they mix and react they change properties. You shouldn't inhale pure hydrogen, but when mixed with oxygen you get something that's necessary to keep you alive: Water/H2O. Sodium reacts violently to water and can explode just from exposure to it, but table salt (Sodium Chloride) doesn't have that property at all.

[theadvicist]

Yeah, I know a guy who used to work near an old coal mine -- died of lung cancer.  That's why I don't use electricity.

And they're just not comparable examples.

If you said, "I know a guy who used to work near an old coal mine -- died of lung cancer. That's why I don't burn coal in my open fire", I'd think, hmm, maybe a bit overcautious, but whatever.

But to compare it to Teflon - where the chemicals applied to the pans you cook on are the ones that have necessitated the health monitoring - is not the same thing at all.

The chemical ingredients and byproducts are what contaminated the water. All I've seen is reports that workers and people exposed to the process of making Teflon have had health issues directly linked to that. I don't see any reports or studies saying that the actual finished product is unsafe or linked to any health problems.

The thing about chemicals is that when they mix and react they change properties. You shouldn't inhale pure hydrogen, but when mixed with oxygen you get something that's necessary to keep you alive: Water/H2O. Sodium reacts violently to water and can explode just from exposure to it, but table salt (Sodium Chloride) doesn't have that property at all.

I agree that there is no evidence that teflon on pans causes health problems. I have no skin in this race, and personally use a variety of pans (including teflon ones). But I stand by the fact that dragoncar was not comparing like situations with the coal / electricity analogy.

[Cromacster]

Non-stick pans (of any stripe) aren't safe, according to growing scientific evidence on the larger chemical group (PFAS). Google "the Madrid Statement" or for an example: http://greensciencepolicy.org/madrid-statement/

Plus, I honestly hate cooking on them. I use cast iron skillets for much of my cooking, and used either enameled cast-iron or tri-ply stainless for things like acidic sauces that don't play nice with plain iron.

Seasoned cast iron that's taken care of (don't wash with soap, dry immediately, wipe with oil if necessary) properly is a vastly superior "non-stick" surface, cheaper, and lasts basically forever. It's like the ultimate Mustachian cookware.

Does that include so called "ceramic" nonstick?  They say PFOA or PTFE, but perhaps they still use some PF? 

Anyways, I don't believe that seasoned cast iron is safe.  If has a chemical coating as well, but you make it yourself out of a homemade varnish.

I grew up in the town where Teflon was made and now have to have medical monitoring for the rest of my life for a range of conditions due to the water pollution they caused. So I will stick to my cast iron and stainless steel. The only "chemical varnish" is one made of cooking oil and heat. Seems less likely to cause cancer.

Yeah, I know a guy who used to work near an old coal mine -- died of lung cancer.  That's why I don't use electricity.

Except it's pretty hard not to use electricity and pretty easy to not use pans made of chemicals that cause cancer.

It's also nearly impossible to avoid using products that have PTFE in them.  I can confidently say you use products with PTFE in them on a daily basis.  It's one of the hidden industries that you never see.  Drive a car?  Use a cell phone?  The most recognizable consumer product would be Goretex (Goretex=PTFE).

As others have said, it's no the PTFE that is a carcinogen, it's the products used in the making of it, many of which have been phased out and have been replaced with better alternatives.

[chicagomeg]

Non-stick pans (of any stripe) aren't safe, according to growing scientific evidence on the larger chemical group (PFAS). Google "the Madrid Statement" or for an example: http://greensciencepolicy.org/madrid-statement/

Plus, I honestly hate cooking on them. I use cast iron skillets for much of my cooking, and used either enameled cast-iron or tri-ply stainless for things like acidic sauces that don't play nice with plain iron.

Seasoned cast iron that's taken care of (don't wash with soap, dry immediately, wipe with oil if necessary) properly is a vastly superior "non-stick" surface, cheaper, and lasts basically forever. It's like the ultimate Mustachian cookware.

Does that include so called "ceramic" nonstick?  They say PFOA or PTFE, but perhaps they still use some PF? 

Anyways, I don't believe that seasoned cast iron is safe.  If has a chemical coating as well, but you make it yourself out of a homemade varnish.

I grew up in the town where Teflon was made and now have to have medical monitoring for the rest of my life for a range of conditions due to the water pollution they caused. So I will stick to my cast iron and stainless steel. The only "chemical varnish" is one made of cooking oil and heat. Seems less likely to cause cancer.

Yeah, I know a guy who used to work near an old coal mine -- died of lung cancer.  That's why I don't use electricity.

Except it's pretty hard not to use electricity and pretty easy to not use pans made of chemicals that cause cancer.

It's also nearly impossible to avoid using products that have PTFE in them.  I can confidently say you use products with PTFE in them on a daily basis.  It's one of the hidden industries that you never see.  Drive a car?  Use a cell phone?  The most recognizable consumer product would be Goretex (Goretex=PTFE).

As others have said, it's no the PTFE that is a carcinogen, it's the products used in the making of it, many of which have been phased out and have been replaced with better alternatives.

"As a result of a class-action lawsuit and community settlement with DuPont, three epidemiologists conducted studies on the population surrounding a chemical plant that was exposed to PFOA at levels greater than in the general population. The studies concluded that there was probably an association between PFOA exposure and six health outcomes: kidney cancer, testicular cancer, ulcerative colitis, thyroid disease, hypercholesterolemia (high cholesterol), and pregnancy-induced hypertension."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluorooctanoic_acid

Also, Goretex no longer contains C8 (and I don't own any Goretex), but Teflon definitely does.

Look, you can't avoid everything that increases the risk of cancer. I'm not a paranoid idiot. But Teflon is easy to avoid. There are plenty of good alternatives. Given that I've already been over exposed to C8, I'm not going to intentionally expose myself to MORE of it.

[MgoSam]

Non-stick pans (of any stripe) aren't safe, according to growing scientific evidence on the larger chemical group (PFAS). Google "the Madrid Statement" or for an example: http://greensciencepolicy.org/madrid-statement/

Plus, I honestly hate cooking on them. I use cast iron skillets for much of my cooking, and used either enameled cast-iron or tri-ply stainless for things like acidic sauces that don't play nice with plain iron.

Seasoned cast iron that's taken care of (don't wash with soap, dry immediately, wipe with oil if necessary) properly is a vastly superior "non-stick" surface, cheaper, and lasts basically forever. It's like the ultimate Mustachian cookware.

Does that include so called "ceramic" nonstick?  They say PFOA or PTFE, but perhaps they still use some PF? 

Anyways, I don't believe that seasoned cast iron is safe.  If has a chemical coating as well, but you make it yourself out of a homemade varnish.

I grew up in the town where Teflon was made and now have to have medical monitoring for the rest of my life for a range of conditions due to the water pollution they caused. So I will stick to my cast iron and stainless steel. The only "chemical varnish" is one made of cooking oil and heat. Seems less likely to cause cancer.

Yeah, I know a guy who used to work near an old coal mine -- died of lung cancer.  That's why I don't use electricity.

Except it's pretty hard not to use electricity and pretty easy to not use pans made of chemicals that cause cancer.

It's also nearly impossible to avoid using products that have PTFE in them.  I can confidently say you use products with PTFE in them on a daily basis.  It's one of the hidden industries that you never see.  Drive a car?  Use a cell phone?  The most recognizable consumer product would be Goretex (Goretex=PTFE).

As others have said, it's no the PTFE that is a carcinogen, it's the products used in the making of it, many of which have been phased out and have been replaced with better alternatives.

"As a result of a class-action lawsuit and community settlement with DuPont, three epidemiologists conducted studies on the population surrounding a chemical plant that was exposed to PFOA at levels greater than in the general population. The studies concluded that there was probably an association between PFOA exposure and six health outcomes: kidney cancer, testicular cancer, ulcerative colitis, thyroid disease, hypercholesterolemia (high cholesterol), and pregnancy-induced hypertension."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluorooctanoic_acid

Also, Goretex no longer contains C8 (and I don't own any Goretex), but Teflon definitely does.

Look, you can't avoid everything that increases the risk of cancer. I'm not a paranoid idiot. But Teflon is easy to avoid. There are plenty of good alternatives. Given that I've already been over exposed to C8, I'm not going to intentionally expose myself to MORE of it.

This is starting to get foamy.

[solon]

Non-stick pans (of any stripe) aren't safe, according to growing scientific evidence on the larger chemical group (PFAS). Google "the Madrid Statement" or for an example: http://greensciencepolicy.org/madrid-statement/

Plus, I honestly hate cooking on them. I use cast iron skillets for much of my cooking, and used either enameled cast-iron or tri-ply stainless for things like acidic sauces that don't play nice with plain iron.

Seasoned cast iron that's taken care of (don't wash with soap, dry immediately, wipe with oil if necessary) properly is a vastly superior "non-stick" surface, cheaper, and lasts basically forever. It's like the ultimate Mustachian cookware.

Does that include so called "ceramic" nonstick?  They say PFOA or PTFE, but perhaps they still use some PF? 

Anyways, I don't believe that seasoned cast iron is safe.  If has a chemical coating as well, but you make it yourself out of a homemade varnish.

I grew up in the town where Teflon was made and now have to have medical monitoring for the rest of my life for a range of conditions due to the water pollution they caused. So I will stick to my cast iron and stainless steel. The only "chemical varnish" is one made of cooking oil and heat. Seems less likely to cause cancer.

Yeah, I know a guy who used to work near an old coal mine -- died of lung cancer.  That's why I don't use electricity.

Except it's pretty hard not to use electricity and pretty easy to not use pans made of chemicals that cause cancer.

It's also nearly impossible to avoid using products that have PTFE in them.  I can confidently say you use products with PTFE in them on a daily basis.  It's one of the hidden industries that you never see.  Drive a car?  Use a cell phone?  The most recognizable consumer product would be Goretex (Goretex=PTFE).

As others have said, it's no the PTFE that is a carcinogen, it's the products used in the making of it, many of which have been phased out and have been replaced with better alternatives.

"As a result of a class-action lawsuit and community settlement with DuPont, three epidemiologists conducted studies on the population surrounding a chemical plant that was exposed to PFOA at levels greater than in the general population. The studies concluded that there was probably an association between PFOA exposure and six health outcomes: kidney cancer, testicular cancer, ulcerative colitis, thyroid disease, hypercholesterolemia (high cholesterol), and pregnancy-induced hypertension."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluorooctanoic_acid

Also, Goretex no longer contains C8 (and I don't own any Goretex), but Teflon definitely does.

Look, you can't avoid everything that increases the risk of cancer. I'm not a paranoid idiot. But Teflon is easy to avoid. There are plenty of good alternatives. Given that I've already been over exposed to C8, I'm not going to intentionally expose myself to MORE of it.

This is starting to get foamy.

"Starting"?

[chicagomeg]

I'm done foaming. Sorry guys!!!

[MgoSam]

Non-stick pans (of any stripe) aren't safe, according to growing scientific evidence on the larger chemical group (PFAS). Google "the Madrid Statement" or for an example: http://greensciencepolicy.org/madrid-statement/

Plus, I honestly hate cooking on them. I use cast iron skillets for much of my cooking, and used either enameled cast-iron or tri-ply stainless for things like acidic sauces that don't play nice with plain iron.

Seasoned cast iron that's taken care of (don't wash with soap, dry immediately, wipe with oil if necessary) properly is a vastly superior "non-stick" surface, cheaper, and lasts basically forever. It's like the ultimate Mustachian cookware.

Does that include so called "ceramic" nonstick?  They say PFOA or PTFE, but perhaps they still use some PF? 

Anyways, I don't believe that seasoned cast iron is safe.  If has a chemical coating as well, but you make it yourself out of a homemade varnish.

I grew up in the town where Teflon was made and now have to have medical monitoring for the rest of my life for a range of conditions due to the water pollution they caused. So I will stick to my cast iron and stainless steel. The only "chemical varnish" is one made of cooking oil and heat. Seems less likely to cause cancer.

Yeah, I know a guy who used to work near an old coal mine -- died of lung cancer.  That's why I don't use electricity.

Except it's pretty hard not to use electricity and pretty easy to not use pans made of chemicals that cause cancer.

It's also nearly impossible to avoid using products that have PTFE in them.  I can confidently say you use products with PTFE in them on a daily basis.  It's one of the hidden industries that you never see.  Drive a car?  Use a cell phone?  The most recognizable consumer product would be Goretex (Goretex=PTFE).

As others have said, it's no the PTFE that is a carcinogen, it's the products used in the making of it, many of which have been phased out and have been replaced with better alternatives.

"As a result of a class-action lawsuit and community settlement with DuPont, three epidemiologists conducted studies on the population surrounding a chemical plant that was exposed to PFOA at levels greater than in the general population. The studies concluded that there was probably an association between PFOA exposure and six health outcomes: kidney cancer, testicular cancer, ulcerative colitis, thyroid disease, hypercholesterolemia (high cholesterol), and pregnancy-induced hypertension."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluorooctanoic_acid

Also, Goretex no longer contains C8 (and I don't own any Goretex), but Teflon definitely does.

Look, you can't avoid everything that increases the risk of cancer. I'm not a paranoid idiot. But Teflon is easy to avoid. There are plenty of good alternatives. Given that I've already been over exposed to C8, I'm not going to intentionally expose myself to MORE of it.

This is starting to get foamy.

"Starting"?

Being passive aggressive.

[mm1970]

I don't like griddles much. Too weird. One side is useless.

http://www.chowstatic.com/assets/models/product_photos/images/172/original/100413_lodge_pan_1.jpg for all your needs. That's my opinion. I also use a dutch oven.

The sad thing is, I have this one too.  And everything stuck when I tried to use it.  So it's sitting, lonely, in the bottom of a cupboard, waiting for me to re-season it.

[PMG]

I don't like griddles much. Too weird. One side is useless.

http://www.chowstatic.com/assets/models/product_photos/images/172/original/100413_lodge_pan_1.jpg for all your needs. That's my opinion. I also use a dutch oven.

The sad thing is, I have this one too.  And everything stuck when I tried to use it.  So it's sitting, lonely, in the bottom of a cupboard, waiting for me to re-season it.

Adding to OT

If I didn't already own hundred year old cast iron...  I am a huge fan of multi use tools. This looks perfect.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0009JKG9M/ref=aw_wl_ov_dp_1_1?colid=1OJV6T9XHMXO7&coliid=I2CKATSH7204F0

[gimp]

My method for getting a cast iron pan on which I can cook eggs completely dry with no sticking whatsoever (I've been called out on this and made a video with proof... if you want it):

Yeah, of course, season it properly in the oven. But that's not as important as people say. What is really important: use the pan to cook something every day, preferably meat (especially fatty meat like bacon) or food that takes plenty of oil (for example, fry some potatoes). After about a month of this, it is entirely non-stick. In other words, no special break-in, just use it to cook things with fat, added or natural.

(Yes, I can probably get things to stick to it if I try - maybe try to fry some rice at the highest heat and leave it burning, that sort of thing.)

[Sam E]

My method for getting a cast iron pan on which I can cook eggs completely dry with no sticking whatsoever (I've been called out on this and made a video with proof... if you want it):

Yeah, of course, season it properly in the oven. But that's not as important as people say. What is really important: use the pan to cook something every day, preferably meat (especially fatty meat like bacon) or food that takes plenty of oil (for example, fry some potatoes). After about a month of this, it is entirely non-stick. In other words, no special break-in, just use it to cook things with fat, added or natural.

(Yes, I can probably get things to stick to it if I try - maybe try to fry some rice at the highest heat and leave it burning, that sort of thing.)

This is how my mom breaks in all her stoneware baking pans and it works wonders for making the surface nonstick. She shores up the edges and then layers bacon on it and cooks that. Do it a few times and the stoneware is fully seasoned and nonstick. Plus, you get to eat bacon during the process. Win-win!

[Gen Y Finance Journey]

My method for getting a cast iron pan on which I can cook eggs completely dry with no sticking whatsoever (I've been called out on this and made a video with proof... if you want it):

Yeah, of course, season it properly in the oven. But that's not as important as people say. What is really important: use the pan to cook something every day, preferably meat (especially fatty meat like bacon) or food that takes plenty of oil (for example, fry some potatoes). After about a month of this, it is entirely non-stick. In other words, no special break-in, just use it to cook things with fat, added or natural.

(Yes, I can probably get things to stick to it if I try - maybe try to fry some rice at the highest heat and leave it burning, that sort of thing.)

I've been doing this for quite a while, but I still can't get my cast iron pan to be non-stick. I've made a couple attempts over the months cooking eggs in it to test out whether I've succeeded, with terrible results every time. I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong in my cleaning routine that's negating the progress I make each time I cook. What's your cleaning process?

[Threshkin]

My method for getting a cast iron pan on which I can cook eggs completely dry with no sticking whatsoever (I've been called out on this and made a video with proof... if you want it):

Yeah, of course, season it properly in the oven. But that's not as important as people say. What is really important: use the pan to cook something every day, preferably meat (especially fatty meat like bacon) or food that takes plenty of oil (for example, fry some potatoes). After about a month of this, it is entirely non-stick. In other words, no special break-in, just use it to cook things with fat, added or natural.

(Yes, I can probably get things to stick to it if I try - maybe try to fry some rice at the highest heat and leave it burning, that sort of thing.)

I've been doing this for quite a while, but I still can't get my cast iron pan to be non-stick. I've made a couple attempts over the months cooking eggs in it to test out whether I've succeeded, with terrible results every time. I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong in my cleaning routine that's negating the progress I make each time I cook. What's your cleaning process?

If you are having trouble with sticking on cast iron you might also need to look at how you clean the pan.  I never use water or (god forbid) soap.  To clean a cast iron pan put a little oil and table salt in the pan, maybe a tablespoon or so of each depending on the size of the pan.  Warm up the pan to loosen up everything and scrub it with a paper towel* using the salt as an abrasive.  Once everything is loose, dump out the dirty salt/oil mixture and wipe the pan clean with a new paper towel*.  Done!

*Feel free to use cloth towels if you prefer but this is one place where paper is better IMO.

[gimp]

I used to do it the right way, with an abrasive (salt). Then I got lazy. I just scrape it clean-ish, use water to get rid of anything left, let the water run off as much as possible, then smack the pan on high heat to force all the water to evaporate. Result: dry, hot pan.

[Gen Y Finance Journey]

Hmm, I do a hybrid of those methods. I put salt in the pan and scrub with a stiff bristled brush, rinse with water, put it back on the burner to dry off all the water, and finish it off by rubbing some oil on it with a paper towel. Threshkin, I will try your no water method and just use a paper towel instead of the brush and see if that helps. Thanks!

[zolotiyeruki]

I've been doing this for quite a while, but I still can't get my cast iron pan to be non-stick. I've made a couple attempts over the months cooking eggs in it to test out whether I've succeeded, with terrible results every time. I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong in my cleaning routine that's negating the progress I make each time I cook. What's your cleaning process?

I used to have the same issue.  Here's how I (think I) licked it:  first of all, start with some butter or bacon grease.  Secondly, don't constantly stir the eggs.  Let them cook, and only occasionally turn the eggs.  And lastly, let the eggs sit in the pan for a couple minutes after removing the pan from the stove. (This is what I do when scrambling 8-10 eggs at a time)

[Latwell]

How does a Payroll department deal with it though? If a check goes bad in 180 days or whatever and you wait too long, will you be able to access the money? Will you be able to access it quickly (as is the point of a rainy day fund)? Or worst case scenario, what if you leave the company/the company folds?

It just seems incredibly dangerous.

Every state has a department that "holds onto" the money represented by those uncashed paychecks and other types of dormant accounts, known as unclaimed property.

As a person who has always lived in New York, I was able to get an $2,000 insurance reimbursement check that I had somehow lost and never deposited. New York helpfully has a registry you can search online, and then fill out a form with more of your details to prove you are entitled to the money.  Many states put out advertisements in a local paper about dormant accounts.  While there are 3rd parties that will search and claim on your behalf, that's not a very Mustachian way to go.

I love being an auditor. My collections of stories and experiences tend to be much greater.

Last year during an audit, I had a school teacher who was receiving insurance "reimbursements" from her medical provider. The teacher knew she wasn't entitled to these funds. At first, it sounded like the checks she was receiving were checks that should've gone to the health providers. But even that didn't sound right. She would go to the pharmacy for her month medication, next thing you know another check comes in the mail.

At first she kept calling the insurance over and over again to get an explanation for the check. She told them multiple times that the money she was getting didn't make sense. Every time, the health insurance people told her that it was hers or had no idea why she was receiving the money. I guess she dexuded to cash the checks. I can't remember if she spent the money or was smart and let the money just sit in a bank account knowing that she'd have to pay it back.

After a while, I guess the insurance company must've realize what the heck was going on. The teacher has to pay back over $100,000.

[ender]

I love being an auditor. My collections of stories and experiences tend to be much greater.

Last year during an audit, I had a school teacher who was receiving insurance "reimbursements" from her medical provider. The teacher knew she wasn't entitled to these funds. At first, it sounded like the checks she was receiving were checks that should've gone to the health providers. But even that didn't sound right. She would go to the pharmacy for her month medication, next thing you know another check comes in the mail.

At first she kept calling the insurance over and over again to get an explanation for the check. She told them multiple times that the money she was getting didn't make sense. Every time, the health insurance people told her that it was hers or had no idea why she was receiving the money. I guess she dexuded to cash the checks. I can't remember if she spent the money or was smart and let the money just sit in a bank account knowing that she'd have to pay it back.

After a while, I guess the insurance company must've realize what the heck was going on. The teacher has to pay back over $100,000.

This would infuriate me, if I spent a lot of MY time investigating if a health insurance provider was making mistakes,  repeatedly being assured they were not, only to then have them change their minds later.

I get that it doesn't make sense but if someone is reassured after investigating that it's her money multiple different times, it's pretty unfair to then come after them.

Considering most of those conversations are documented that teacher should make a serious complaint.

I don't know what level a company is liable for their own stupidity but this certainly sounds like a case where the company is completely at fault for being stupid.

[zolotiyeruki]

If she has documentation/proof that they told her to keep the money, my understanding is that she had fairly strong legal standing to tell them to shove it.

[ambimammular]

Any cast iron users that are having trouble with sticking, make sure you let that baby heat up. Like 10 minutes. Then add your oil.
My guess is you're throwing something into a nearly cold pan. Hope that helps.