Overheard at Work

[frugalnacho]

I typically go home with 1k or so more than I started with by the end of the night.

...

Can't let that one slide, sorry.  :)

Lol, typically, but not always :)

I admit it's dumb, but we all have something dumb we enjoy.

Sure, I wasn't criticising the gambling, but the idea that you "typically" make money on it. :)

Depending on the type of gambling.  I've heard people claim they typically make money, or are able to somehow beat the house at craps, roulette, and slots.  Those people are liars, or are delusional.  Playing poker has been very profitable to me over the years though.  I've made a lot of money in basement games, and also playing online.  I've played at the casino too, but it's too high stakes and too much competition, and I make far less on a per hour basis so it's not worth it for me to pursue playing at a casino for profit.  I don't have a long enough track record of playing in casinos to be able to claim I could personally make money doing that either.  I stopped playing online when it was outlawed, and though I've heard of loopholes of being able to get back online and play on certain sites I have never bothered trying.  I don't play basement games anymore because the group of guys I used to play with slowly disbanded as everyone grew up.  I definitely paid a chunk of my tuition with poker profits though.

[MichaelB]

My car died recently--it was a 2010 Hyundai Accent. Right now it's just me and my wife, with a baby on the way. I'm replacing it with a used hatchback (actually, another 2010 Hyundai Accent) with about 38k miles.

I've had multiple people ask me, when I was looking for cars, if I was getting an SUV because of the baby. Um, we're only having one.

[zephyr911]

My car died recently--it was a 2010 Hyundai Accent. Right now it's just me and my wife, with a baby on the way. I'm replacing it with a used hatchback (actually, another 2010 Hyundai Accent) with about 38k miles.

I've had multiple people ask me, when I was looking for cars, if I was getting an SUV because of the baby. Um, we're only having one.

People are fucking insane, man.
My CW has a 4-Runner, a tiny wife and two kids aged 13 and 8. Wants to trade it for a Tahoe because it's too small for them. It's less than 2 years old...

[mtn]

My car died recently--it was a 2010 Hyundai Accent. Right now it's just me and my wife, with a baby on the way. I'm replacing it with a used hatchback (actually, another 2010 Hyundai Accent) with about 38k miles.

I've had multiple people ask me, when I was looking for cars, if I was getting an SUV because of the baby. Um, we're only having one.

Wait... your car died at only 6 years old and you're replacing it with the same thing? Or was it wrecked?

Somewhat related, I'm thinking about trading in my wife's car for a cheaper SUV since she can't seem to miss parking stops and keeps ripping the bumper off. But it would be a car-based SUV (i.e. Highlander or RX330)

[JLee]

At some point I started refusing. At some point you can't just keep saying "Yes, boss!" You're supposed to have a job description - you have an agreement that you will take X money to do do Y job. Is it really OK to hire someone to be a print production manager and then tell them to do accounting and insurance instead?

I agree with the above posters -- barring illegal discrimination situations, yes it's OK to ask someone to do a different job.  This thread is making me think that if I ever run a business, every job posting will say "As an employee, you will be expected to complete any business task provided by management.  Your primary tasks will be XYZ."  If someone says "that's not in my job description," I'll pull the job posting out of my desk.  I guess I'd be a crappy manager.

Funny, this reminds me of when I was a highly paid summer associate (internship) at a law firm.  Now, I was never personally asked to get a partner coffee, but some other interns were and complained about it.  I'm like, hey guys, if they want to pay me $100/hour to get them coffee, that's fine by me.*

*I would understand if it was something like "make the girl get the coffee" but it wasn't like that.  More like "the adults are talking can this guy sitting here not doing anything grab some coffee?"

Heh, I wouldn't want to work there.  I'm at a point in my career where I won't do entry-level stuff anymore (like telephone tech support). If I was told I'm now in a call queue for phone support, I would quit - potentially on the spot.

I'd get someone coffee for $100/hour, though. I had no idea that interns anywhere were paid $200k/year.

[dragoncar]

I'd get someone coffee for $100/hour, though. I had no idea that interns anywhere were paid $200k/year.

It was a bit of an exaggeration, but law students at big firms are paid for the summer at an annualized rate of $180k (not 100% sure, I was paid a bit less as a summer).  But once you factor in that much of the summer involves long lunches and fun activities, you probably actually make over $100 per hour of real work (yes, you do some).

A popular joke going around New York City law firms this summer tells of an old man who is accidentally sent to hell, only to be surprised by its splendor and tranquility.

Suddenly, he finds himself back on earth, where he commits every possible sin until he is banished to hell again. But this time it is as cruel as he had once imagined and he asks the Devil what happened.

''Oh, you must have been here for our summer associate program,'' the Devil responds.

[MichaelB]

My car died recently--it was a 2010 Hyundai Accent. Right now it's just me and my wife, with a baby on the way. I'm replacing it with a used hatchback (actually, another 2010 Hyundai Accent) with about 38k miles.

I've had multiple people ask me, when I was looking for cars, if I was getting an SUV because of the baby. Um, we're only having one.

Wait... your car died at only 6 years old and you're replacing it with the same thing? Or was it wrecked?

It was a great car, I just drove the hell out of it. My driving habits prior to discovering MMM a few months ago were...not Mustachian. A few years of a 30 mile one way commute, plus a long distance relationship with a gf (now wife) in Western PA, while I was in Charlotte NC. I bought it with 35k miles, and managed to put over 120k miles on it in 5 years. So it had over 155k miles, and it needed a repair worth more than the car (timing belt broke, did engine damage). The car was a champ--I never put a dollar into that car for repairs, just maintenance. I probably could have gotten over 200k if I had known that they were still putting timing belts in 2010 models. I was setting aside money for a new car anyways, since my wife's car also had over 160k miles, so it seemed as good a time as any to replace it.

[LeRainDrop]

A popular joke going around New York City law firms this summer tells of an old man who is accidentally sent to hell, only to be surprised by its splendor and tranquility.

Suddenly, he finds himself back on earth, where he commits every possible sin until he is banished to hell again. But this time it is as cruel as he had once imagined and he asks the Devil what happened.

''Oh, you must have been here for our summer associate program,'' the Devil responds.

LOL, totally!

[SweetLife]

me: how much did you spend?
her: $20,000
me: what did you BUY???
her: clothes
me: (to myself) WTF!!!! (to her) oh was there a sale?
her: (serious) No.
me: Oh.... (to myself WTFFFFFFFFFF)

[SweetLife]

Uuughhh people. What a load of total crap they talk. You have to have a certain number of x chromosomes to be allowed to bake cookies huh. My boyfriend bakes amazing cakes and cookies all the time and I 100% support this. Only for gender equality reasons obviously ;)

Your (ex) colleagues don't deserve cookies.

My husband is the official sewer/mender.  I support it solely for gender equality reasons and not for the health of my fingerpads or general laziness.

I'm in the same situation ... my husband is the "house husband" I work he stays at home and does everything ... EVERYTHING!!!! I love him and I am sooooo lucky lol... :) but he bakes/sews/even hangs laundry outside!!! he's so Mustachian he puts me to shame!

[damyst]

At some point I started refusing. At some point you can't just keep saying "Yes, boss!" You're supposed to have a job description - you have an agreement that you will take X money to do do Y job. Is it really OK to hire someone to be a print production manager and then tell them to do accounting and insurance instead?

I agree with the above posters -- barring illegal discrimination situations, yes it's OK to ask someone to do a different job.  This thread is making me think that if I ever run a business, every job posting will say "As an employee, you will be expected to complete any business task provided by management.  Your primary tasks will be XYZ."  If someone says "that's not in my job description," I'll pull the job posting out of my desk.  I guess I'd be a crappy manager.

Funny, this reminds me of when I was a highly paid summer associate (internship) at a law firm.  Now, I was never personally asked to get a partner coffee, but some other interns were and complained about it.  I'm like, hey guys, if they want to pay me $100/hour to get them coffee, that's fine by me.*

Heh, I wouldn't want to work there.  I'm at a point in my career where I won't do entry-level stuff anymore (like telephone tech support). If I was told I'm now in a call queue for phone support, I would quit - potentially on the spot.

I wouldn't work for such a company either. Employees are not slaves or commodities. With the exception of dead-end jobs, part of their compensation package is the fact that they're advancing their chosen career trajectory. Take that away and they'll eventually walk.

[UnleashHell]

biggest problem with trying to play the lottery is that i don;t seem to find myself in places that sell lottery tickets - or i forget they sell tickets. too distracted by hunting down food bargains!!

[Inaya]

I couldn't help but wonder how many weekends he puts the same in but doesn't win anything.

Gambling/the lottery is a tax on people who are bad at math.

This is so offensive! (Sarcasm for those with broken detectors.) I am TERRIBLE at math, but I know better than to waste money thinking I'll win big!


I'm just waiting for the day my cat goes viral and I can rake in that Famous Internet Cat money.

[Dezrah]

me: how much did you spend?
her: $20,000
me: what did you BUY???
her: clothes
me: (to myself) WTF!!!! (to her) oh was there a sale?
her: (serious) No.
me: Oh.... (to myself WTFFFFFFFFFF)

There was an episode of The Profit once where Lemonis partnered with a clothing boutique.  The first thing he did was pile up the massive amount of outdated inventory and sold it in bulk for pennies on the dollar.  Maybe that's what your coworker bought. 

[MrRealEstate]

me: how much did you spend?
her: $20,000
me: what did you BUY???
her: clothes
me: (to myself) WTF!!!! (to her) oh was there a sale?
her: (serious) No.
me: Oh.... (to myself WTFFFFFFFFFF)

There was an episode of The Profit once where Lemonis partnered with a clothing boutique.  The first thing he did was pile up the massive amount of outdated inventory and sold it in bulk for pennies on the dollar.  Maybe that's what your coworker bought.

They did this at blue jeans bar I believe.

Definitely my favorite show for the sarcasm. Life or Debt was a great one, but it got cancelled after one season.

[JAYSLOL]

I couldn't help but wonder how many weekends he puts the same in but doesn't win anything.

Gambling/the lottery is a tax on people who are bad at math.

Gambling is a tax on those who are desperate enough to not care what the math works out to.  I would guess most people who play a lot actually can do the math and if they did, would keep playing anyway. 

[shelivesthedream]

I couldn't help but wonder how many weekends he puts the same in but doesn't win anything.

Gambling/the lottery is a tax on people who are bad at math.

This is so offensive! (Sarcasm for those with broken detectors.) I am TERRIBLE at math, but I know better than to waste money thinking I'll win big!


I'm just waiting for the day my cat goes viral and I can rake in that Famous Internet Cat money.

There is a book about financial freedom through cat videos: https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Make-Your-Internet-Celebrity/dp/1594746796

[Inaya]

I couldn't help but wonder how many weekends he puts the same in but doesn't win anything.

Gambling/the lottery is a tax on people who are bad at math.

This is so offensive! (Sarcasm for those with broken detectors.) I am TERRIBLE at math, but I know better than to waste money thinking I'll win big!


I'm just waiting for the day my cat goes viral and I can rake in that Famous Internet Cat money.

There is a book about financial freedom through cat videos: https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Make-Your-Internet-Celebrity/dp/1594746796

I love that this exists, but I love Amazon's recommendations even more. Customers who bought this book also bought:

• Crafting with Cat Hair
• I Could Pee on This
• How to Tell if Your Cat is Plotting to Kill You

My library doesn't have it, but I think I need it.

[RamonaQ]

I love that this exists, but I love Amazon's recommendations even more. Customers who bought this book also bought:

• Crafting with Cat Hair
• I Could Pee on This
• How to Tell if Your Cat is Plotting to Kill You

My library doesn't have it, but I think I need it.

I have read all three of these books.  I am so proud.

[Kitsune]

Director-level colleague 1: "But we can't make this decision right now! What if it's the WRONG DECISION??!"
Me: "... then we step back on it, it costs us the time needed to make the transition (roughly 20 hours of the secretary's time, for the record), and we find another option to fix our problems. But right now, this is the best option presented with the information we have. We're doing it."
Director-level colleague 2: "But we can't make decisions without being absolutely sure they're the right ones!!"

For fuck's sake, ladies. We are all directors here. We are literally paid money to make decisions under situations of uncertainty. The more uncertainty, the more money. This is actually our role. If you want a role in which everything is clear-cut and nothing will ever change, try training as the accounting technician -  that's her personality and she's marvelously well-suited for the role.

We are NEVER going to have 100% accurate information on all our options. The best we can do is get all the information we can, and make the best decisions we can based on the information available. At a certain point, decision paralysis ALSO costs money/time/opportunity. If the wrong decisions will cost millions, sure, sit on it a bit. But something this easily reversible if it goes wrong?? Guys. Come ON. Make a call and move on. Your salary is wasted on this shit.

*frustraaaation*

God I can't wait for my maternity leave... at least a baby has a REASON to be irrational and cranky and not make decisions.

[SeaEhm]

Director-level colleague 1: "But we can't make this decision right now! What if it's the WRONG DECISION??!"
Me: "... then we step back on it, it costs us the time needed to make the transition (roughly 20 hours of the secretary's time, for the record), and we find another option to fix our problems. But right now, this is the best option presented with the information we have. We're doing it."
Director-level colleague 2: "But we can't make decisions without being absolutely sure they're the right ones!!"

For fuck's sake, ladies. We are all directors here. We are literally paid money to make decisions under situations of uncertainty. The more uncertainty, the more money. This is actually our role. If you want a role in which everything is clear-cut and nothing will ever change, try training as the accounting technician -  that's her personality and she's marvelously well-suited for the role.

We are NEVER going to have 100% accurate information on all our options. The best we can do is get all the information we can, and make the best decisions we can based on the information available. At a certain point, decision paralysis ALSO costs money/time/opportunity. If the wrong decisions will cost millions, sure, sit on it a bit. But something this easily reversible if it goes wrong?? Guys. Come ON. Make a call and move on. Your salary is wasted on this shit.

*frustraaaation*

God I can't wait for my maternity leave... at least a baby has a REASON to be irrational and cranky and not make decisions.

User Edited: You adding gender does nothing to promote positive discussion

[Taran Wanderer]

For the record, I assumed she was talking about a male director even with the ladies comment. But then maybe that just indicates my own gender bias...  ugh.

[solon]

Director-level colleague 1: "But we can't make this decision right now! What if it's the WRONG DECISION??!"
Me: "... then we step back on it, it costs us the time needed to make the transition (roughly 20 hours of the secretary's time, for the record), and we find another option to fix our problems. But right now, this is the best option presented with the information we have. We're doing it."
Director-level colleague 2: "But we can't make decisions without being absolutely sure they're the right ones!!"

For fuck's sake, ladies. We are all directors here. We are literally paid money to make decisions under situations of uncertainty. The more uncertainty, the more money. This is actually our role. If you want a role in which everything is clear-cut and nothing will ever change, try training as the accounting technician -  that's her personality and she's marvelously well-suited for the role.

We are NEVER going to have 100% accurate information on all our options. The best we can do is get all the information we can, and make the best decisions we can based on the information available. At a certain point, decision paralysis ALSO costs money/time/opportunity. If the wrong decisions will cost millions, sure, sit on it a bit. But something this easily reversible if it goes wrong?? Guys. Come ON. Make a call and move on. Your salary is wasted on this shit.

*frustraaaation*

God I can't wait for my maternity leave... at least a baby has a REASON to be irrational and cranky and not make decisions.

User Edited: You adding gender does nothing to promote positive discussion

The gender adds a great deal in my ability to construct this scene in my mind.

Your comment detracts from positive discussion.

[With This Herring]

Director-level colleague 1: "But we can't make this decision right now! What if it's the WRONG DECISION??!"
Me: "... then we step back on it, it costs us the time needed to make the transition (roughly 20 hours of the secretary's time, for the record), and we find another option to fix our problems. But right now, this is the best option presented with the information we have. We're doing it."
Director-level colleague 2: "But we can't make decisions without being absolutely sure they're the right ones!!"

For fuck's sake, ladies. We are all directors here. We are literally paid money to make decisions under situations of uncertainty. The more uncertainty, the more money. This is actually our role. If you want a role in which everything is clear-cut and nothing will ever change, try training as the accounting technician -  that's her personality and she's marvelously well-suited for the role.

We are NEVER going to have 100% accurate information on all our options. The best we can do is get all the information we can, and make the best decisions we can based on the information available. At a certain point, decision paralysis ALSO costs money/time/opportunity. If the wrong decisions will cost millions, sure, sit on it a bit. But something this easily reversible if it goes wrong?? Guys. Come ON. Make a call and move on. Your salary is wasted on this shit.

*frustraaaation*

God I can't wait for my maternity leave... at least a baby has a REASON to be irrational and cranky and not make decisions.

User Edited: You adding gender does nothing to promote positive discussion

Kitsune is a lady.  I assumed that her use of "ladies" indicated that the directors were, in fact, ladies.  Would you have preferred "youse guys"?

[Metric Mouse]

For the record, I assumed she was talking about a male director even with the ladies comment. But then maybe that just indicates my own gender bias...  ugh.

Yes, that would be your bias. And if the directors were in fact male, then calling them 'ladies' as a derogatory term would be grossly inappropriate as well.

[gimp]

"Youse all yall" to just combine a few tropes.

[Kitsune]

For the record, I assumed she was talking about a male director even with the ladies comment. But then maybe that just indicates my own gender bias...  ugh.

Yes, that would be your bias. And if the directors were in fact male, then calling them 'ladies' as a derogatory term would be grossly inappropriate as well.

Um, they're all women. As am I. The "ladies" comment was just more biologically accurate than "guys", seeing as none of the, are, in fact, guys.

[LeRainDrop]

For the record, I assumed she was talking about a male director even with the ladies comment. But then maybe that just indicates my own gender bias...  ugh.

Yes, that would be your bias. And if the directors were in fact male, then calling them 'ladies' as a derogatory term would be grossly inappropriate as well.

Um, they're all women. As am I. The "ladies" comment was just more biologically accurate than "guys", seeing as none of the, are, in fact, guys.

I'm with you, Kitsune.  People who really struggle to make decisions after reasonable/due diligence (not no-rock-unturned diligence) should not be at the director level.  It drives me crazy when there's sufficient information available -- or at least the best information that can be had at the time a decision needs to be made -- and yet some people just can't set the direction.  Not everyone has the skill-set to make the tough decisions and then take accountability for it, and that's fine, not everyone has to.  But if you're going to be a successful director, those skills are necessary.

[Goldielocks]

It's benefits re-enrollment time at my work.
They have revamped the structure of the benefit packages..

Darn health, dental and LTD benefits are going up by $1800 a year.  Ouch.   Some employees will revert to their SO's benefit packages, so it won't be bad for them, but for many, our company was the "solid benefits" employers, and the SO's have little in benefits.

Oh, and the average pay increase for the whole office is only 1.5% this year....  So, for someone making only $70k a year, that would be a net loss of about 1.5% in take home pay versus last year.

[SeaEhm]

Thanks for playing!


My post was a joke regarding a thread where a moderator edited someone's post because they used gender stereotypes.

[Metric Mouse]

Thanks for playing!


My post was a joke regarding a thread where a moderator edited someone's post because they used gender stereotypes.

Ahh.. you should have used a more prominent color than black for your text.

[Taran Wanderer]

For the record, I assumed she was talking about a male director even with the ladies comment. But then maybe that just indicates my own gender bias...  ugh.

Yes, that would be your bias. And if the directors were in fact male, then calling them 'ladies' as a derogatory term would be grossly inappropriate as well.

Calling a mixed group ladies wouldn't be all that different from calling a mixed group guys. And even if my unconscious assumption about the director's gender had been correct, it would have been a mixed group because Kitsune is a woman. In any case, your tone is not appreciated as I already clearly acknowledged my error and was reflecting on it. That should warrant a pat on the back. Go direct your anger somewhere else.

[SeaEhm]

Thanks for playing!


My post was a joke regarding a thread where a moderator edited someone's post because they used gender stereotypes.

Ahh.. you should have used a more prominent color than black for your text.

The lure can't be too obvious. Then people won't bite.

[TomTX]

Yeah, the smugness from the "I'm way too smart to play the lotto" crowd is tedious when it's directed towards the "buy 3 tickets a year when Powerball goes over $500M" players. You want to yell at the $50/wk people, absolutely, but the whole drop $2 on a whim for a big jackpot, who cares?  I used to joke that back when I drank soda, I'd occasionally go in to the gas station and get a Coke and ticket, and the ticket was the much more responsible purchase.

That's funny, I frequently use soda for an example the other way - "I'd rather spend $2 on a delicious, ice cold drink than on a useless scrap of paper".

I wonder if the whole "dreaming of riches" thing is way less common in Mustachians. I mean, when you already either have a big pile of money, or are making fast and measurable progress towards that pile, you're already seeing a definite finish line for needing to work.

I think its more the difference between those people who can stick to plans and those who need immediate gratification.


Also on the lottery:
Why you buy at big jackpots?
If you win a small with 10 million, you have made it and can live in luxury for the rest of your life.
If you win a big one with 200 million, you have made it and can live in luxury for the rest of your life.

So if both are the same, why play when the competition is fiercest?

$10M wouldn't do it for me; beachfront house on Maui is probably $5-10M itself. :-P

So get a beachfront house on the Big Island for $1M. :P

[kina]

It's benefits re-enrollment time at my work.
They have revamped the structure of the benefit packages..

Darn health, dental and LTD benefits are going up by $1800 a year.  Ouch.   Some employees will revert to their SO's benefit packages, so it won't be bad for them, but for many, our company was the "solid benefits" employers, and the SO's have little in benefits.

Oh, and the average pay increase for the whole office is only 1.5% this year....  So, for someone making only $70k a year, that would be a net loss of about 1.5% in take home pay versus last year.

If you think it will make anyone feel better, you can point out the [not-quite-eligible for Medicare] woman in Pennsylvania who is  seeing her annual marketplace premium increase $7,200. Yes, that's just the increase.

Affordable Care Act. Yippee.

[scottish]

Yeah, I don't really understand this.    Up here we have a single payer system & I pay about 1000 CAD/year for the 4 of us on top of my assorted income taxes.   

It's just medicare - no drugs, dental, LTD etc.   But overall it works pretty well.   Wait times for specialists are pretty long if it's not an emergency, but emergency care is provided quickly.

Why are these premiums so crazy in the US?

[kayvent]

Yeah, I don't really understand this.    Up here we have a single payer system & I pay about 1000 CAD/year for the 4 of us on top of my assorted income taxes.   

It's just medicare - no drugs, dental, LTD etc.   But overall it works pretty well.   Wait times for specialists are pretty long if it's not an emergency, but emergency care is provided quickly.

Why are these premiums so crazy in the US?

Previous to PPACA, America spent as much on public healthcare per capita as us Canadians. That sounds reasonable until you realize that medicare/medicaid in the USA only covered a small minority of people. AND they spent a similar amount on private healthcare per capita as us Canadians in public healthcare spending.

From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work whereas our beloved Canadian medicare system is very, but not overly, focused on costs. The idea that you'll only have one ultrasound for your entire pregnancy is accepted here. Similarly, we accept that you'll have to wait a week or more to see your family doctor and months or more to see a specialist. When you simply don't provide services or provide less (i.e. slowly), things are cheap. In my university years I injured my knee and a few years later, unrelated, developed bouts of acute amnesia. With the former, it took weeks to see my family doctor and I think a year before I got a call to book an appointment with a specialist months later. With the latter, I literally forget how long it took to have the condition checked out. Eventually the two issues subsided without care. If I was in the USA, I think my personality would be such that I'd not tolerate such an omission of care.

But we're Canadians. We smile and accept the situation because we're nice and most of us aren't constantly in the system so we don't mind screwing over those who are.

[shelivesthedream]

From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work

Really? Because I have read multiple articles and studies over the years which said that US healthcare outcomes are among the lowest in the developed world despite healthcare spending being the highest. Obviously I'm British so I think socialised medicine is de rigeur for the 21st Century, but the NHS does rank among the best in the world for healthcare outcomes while spending less than many other developed nations.

[kayvent]

From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work

Really? Because I have read multiple articles and studies over the years which said that US healthcare outcomes are among the lowest in the developed world despite healthcare spending being the highest. Obviously I'm British so I think socialised medicine is de rigeur for the 21st Century, but the NHS does rank among the best in the world for healthcare outcomes while spending less than many other developed nations.

The larger quote gives more context. In Canada we just assume that we'll have to wait weeks to see a doctor, months to see a specialist, and perhaps years to get an operation. We also accept that some health services that are covered under the public system are very limited. This drastically lowers costs. This does not mean outcomes are negatively affected though. For example, comparing the USA to the UK, you're likely to get diagnosed earlier for many diseases and survive longer but the negative outcome (dying of the disease sometime after being diagnosed) occurs at similar rates.

[gimp]

Lots of reasons for healthcare to cost more in the US.

More people making terrible life choices. A more sue-happy environment in which doctors need to get paid more, and also in which doctors over-authorize the kitchen sink for relatively minor things (CT scans for everyone!). A hospital price structure that is similar to going into a really fancy restaurant: a list of things you want, no costs listed anywhere; the same thing can be 3x the price three miles away. Private insurance takes a slice, of course. Bills that are way too high because the hospital expects everyone to only pay a fraction, either due to insurance agreements, or asking the hospital for a break, or just not paying. Our doctors almost certainly take home more pay after all costs too, which is a good thing IMO. We also don't cap the costs of treatments (drugs etc), largely because the US is often the source of many of the drugs in the first place (politics.) And so on and so forth.

Realistically, if you can't pay in the US, any emergency healthcare is free, any maintenance stuff is out of reach.

If you're wealthy, it's not important.

If you're old or poor, you get huge amounts of support.

If you have a white collar job, you get insurance subsidized by your employer, generally.

If you work for government, see above.

If you work in a union, see above.

If you're just well off enough that you get no support, but have a relatively normal income where a hospital bill can ruin you, and you get no subsidized insurance from govt or work, then life is hard.

The ACA makes life easier in many respects, closing some of the worst abuses. However, the ACA is a compromise that makes nobody happy.

[gimp]

From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work

Really? Because I have read multiple articles and studies over the years which said that US healthcare outcomes are among the lowest in the developed world despite healthcare spending being the highest. Obviously I'm British so I think socialised medicine is de rigeur for the 21st Century, but the NHS does rank among the best in the world for healthcare outcomes while spending less than many other developed nations.

Don't forget that a huge amount of our patients are goddamn idiots. They'll be told that you're fat as fuck, stop eating yourself to death, you have to not eat after this surgery for 12 goddamn hours, then they get their fat fucking family to sneak them in KFC.

So our outcomes are often shitty despite good work from hospitals, not because of substandard care.

[shelivesthedream]

From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work

Really? Because I have read multiple articles and studies over the years which said that US healthcare outcomes are among the lowest in the developed world despite healthcare spending being the highest. Obviously I'm British so I think socialised medicine is de rigeur for the 21st Century, but the NHS does rank among the best in the world for healthcare outcomes while spending less than many other developed nations.

Don't forget that a huge amount of our patients are goddamn idiots. They'll be told that you're fat as fuck, stop eating yourself to death, you have to not eat after this surgery for 12 goddamn hours, then they get their fat fucking family to sneak them in KFC.

So our outcomes are often shitty despite good work from hospitals, not because of substandard care.

I honestly don't know how the scale of this problem compares in real life, but in the UK we are constantly told that this is a major problem, particularly for GPs who want to tell people to eat better and exercise more but then find patients just don't or lie about it. Also, NHS waiting times are like the weather over here - everyone has something to say about their experience of them.

I'm not saying US healthcare is absolutely awful or anything, but "work" to me means "make people better", not "make people feel like they're getting a good deal". I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

[jinga nation]

From my understanding of it all, the biggest contributor to these costs are because Americans expect their healthcare system to work

Really? Because I have read multiple articles and studies over the years which said that US healthcare outcomes are among the lowest in the developed world despite healthcare spending being the highest. Obviously I'm British so I think socialised medicine is de rigeur for the 21st Century, but the NHS does rank among the best in the world for healthcare outcomes while spending less than many other developed nations.

Anecdotal data points. Every single relative on my wife's side in the the Greater London area buys private medical insurance. Siblings and first cousins and their spouses. They are in the 22-50 age range. Most are bankers and, accountants, others are office workers, a teacher. It's because waiting to get anything done at an NHS office sucks up productive time.

Kayvent stated what I've been hearing for years from my in-laws, since 2005. When my wife was pregnant, her visiting sister accompanied her for an OBGYN visit. Astounded at the level of care. Amazed, sangs verses of praise. Tremendous verses.

It's not only medicine. Also applies to retail banking, supermarkets (well we're spoilt by Publix), car rentals, generally everything. But this is West Central Florida, we may be an anomaly or a statistical outlier.

Just saying that a lot of times studies don't jive with the boots-on-ground experience. I'm burnt out being told how the NHS sucks by those who contribute to the NHS and are fed up with it. 50+ Anecdotal data points none the less.

[Chris22]

I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

[Miss Piggy]

I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

I could not agree more.

The stories about people in socialized medicine countries waiting months/years to see a specialist or get the services/meds they need scare the hell out of me.

[merula]

I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

I'm in basically the same place as you (employed white collar worker with great health care through work), and I definitely hear where you're coming from. I'm just a little unclear on whether you're saying that the potential cost to you outweighs the benefits to others in worse circumstances, or if you're saying that you support socialized medicine because of the benefit to others, despite the cost to you.

If it's the former, it might be worth considering that many countries with public healthcare also have private insurance providers. (See jinga nation's comments about family in London.)

Another question: what do you plan to do after age 65? Would you use Medicare, with the attendant potential for government headaches, or buy private insurance?

[arebelspy]

I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

Do you make all your decisions from a "* everyone else, I want mine" perspective?  That's what this post sounds like, at least.

I am genuinely curious.

[Chris22]

I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

Do you make all your decisions from a "* everyone else, I want mine" perspective?  That's what this post sounds like, at least.

I am genuinely curious.

Essentially, yeah, I do.  I am not in favor of making it worse for me, the Average Productive Worker, to benefit others.  Sorry. 

[Chris22]

I find it hard to understand why y'all object so strongly to socialised healthcare. (I mean, it's been explained to me, but I still don't get it.)

Because as an employed white collar worker with an employed white collar worker spouse, I feel like my healthcare is the best in the world.  My insurance company is not unreasonable, I've got plenty of coverage, and if I have a problem I can go see some of the best doctors on the planet for not a ton of money. 

I consider the government pretty much entirely incompetent at about everything they do, and I don't see how inserting themselves into the good deal I've got going can make it better for me.  For other people, yes, I'm aware they have shitty circumstances, but for me they can ONLY cock it up.

I'm in basically the same place as you (employed white collar worker with great health care through work), and I definitely hear where you're coming from. I'm just a little unclear on whether you're saying that the potential cost to you outweighs the benefits to others in worse circumstances, or if you're saying that you support socialized medicine because of the benefit to others, despite the cost to you.

If it's the former, it might be worth considering that many countries with public healthcare also have private insurance providers. (See jinga nation's comments about family in London.)

No, I'm saying I am not in favor of ruining my good deal. 

I am aware of private insurance in other countries, not sure how my essentially paying for insurance twice (taxes and then out of pocket) is better for me.

Another question: what do you plan to do after age 65? Would you use Medicare, with the attendant potential for government headaches, or buy private insurance?

I'm 34.  Ask me again when I'm 55 or 60; I have a feeling a lot will change over the next 30 years so it's pretty academic for me to worry about that now.

[arebelspy]

Essentially, yeah, I do.  I am not in favor of making it worse for me, the Average Productive Worker, to benefit others.  Sorry.

You don't need to apologize.