Overheard at Work

[merula]

His argument is a mix  of :

• You're always better off borrowing money if the interest rate is less than inflation or then you can make investing it, otherwise you actually LOSE money.  Hint : he doesn' t actually invest the money.
• If the car ages out of warranty, then you have to start paying for maintenance yourself.  So clearly the better option is to always drive a new car with a warranty and then you never have to come up with money if the car needs repairs.  Instead of, ya know, having a budget line item for vehicle maintenance.
• By taking out a car loan, you get a five year newer, better car with tomorrow's dollars, which, presumably are going to worth less.
• Once you pay off your car loan, the money is already in your budget for the next one.

I adore him, but something I just can't even with him. 
We agreed to disagree about the second day of our friendship, and we've been having this same exact argument since 2006 when he went with me to buy the car I'm currently driving.

Um.... bullet point 1 would make sense if it was a house... but we are talking about a new car.  The car is depreciating.....  You are still losing money.

More foam.

The actual value of the asset you're borrowing against has no relation to whether or not you should borrow to invest or pay cash.

An extreme example: I borrow $100 from you to buy a cat picture from the internet. Market value of the cat picture is $0, but I want to pay $100 and find someone willing to take it. You charge me 5% interest over a year, so at the end of one year, I owe you $105. At the same time I borrow from you and buy the cat picture, I find a bond willing to pay 10% interest, so I give them $100, and a year later get $110 back.

Year end results:
Pay cash: me $0, cat picture seller $100
Borrow and invest: you $5, bond issuer -$10, me $5, cat picture seller $100

But the real lesson here is that it's best to sell cat pictures and new cars to suckers.

[DaveInVirginia]

CW:  My roommate has been eating fast food every night since our microwave broke last month.

Me: You can get a microwave off of craigslist for like 20 bucks.

CW:  We have a microwave that's connected to our stove and range.  It's probably gonna be a couple hundred to get fixed.  I never even use it, I cook my own food on the stove and range.  But he gets home late and has frozen microwave dinners every night because he's trying to lose weight.

Me: I don't think frozen dinners are very good for losing weight.  They're loaded with sugar and artificial crap.

CW:  I know but he doesn't know how to cook, so it's either those or the drive-thru.  He doesn't like the food I eat.

Me:  So instead of buying a cheap microwave or learning how to cook, he's going out for dinner every night?  Why doesn't he fix the microwave?

CW:  He says he can't right now, he needs the extra money for the drive-thru.

Me:  [palm-to-forehead].  So I guess he hasn't lost much weight either.

CW:  No, he's probably gained some.

Me:  Wait a minute, you guys are renting, right?  Why don't you have your landlord fix the f%$ing microwave?

CW:  I don't think that's included in our lease.  Do landlords usually pay for stuff like that?

Me: [I need a new job]

[Rural]

His argument is a mix  of :

• You're always better off borrowing money if the interest rate is less than inflation or then you can make investing it, otherwise you actually LOSE money.  Hint : he doesn' t actually invest the money.
• If the car ages out of warranty, then you have to start paying for maintenance yourself.  So clearly the better option is to always drive a new car with a warranty and then you never have to come up with money if the car needs repairs.  Instead of, ya know, having a budget line item for vehicle maintenance.
• By taking out a car loan, you get a five year newer, better car with tomorrow's dollars, which, presumably are going to worth less.
• Once you pay off your car loan, the money is already in your budget for the next one.

I adore him, but something I just can't even with him. 
We agreed to disagree about the second day of our friendship, and we've been having this same exact argument since 2006 when he went with me to buy the car I'm currently driving.

Um.... bullet point 1 would make sense if it was a house... but we are talking about a new car.  The car is depreciating.....  You are still losing money.

More foam.

The actual value of the asset you're borrowing against has no relation to whether or not you should borrow to invest or pay cash.

An extreme example: I borrow $100 from you to buy a cat picture from the internet. Market value of the cat picture is $0, but I want to pay $100 and find someone willing to take it. You charge me 5% interest over a year, so at the end of one year, I owe you $105. At the same time I borrow from you and buy the cat picture, I find a bond willing to pay 10% interest, so I give them $100, and a year later get $110 back.

Year end results:
Pay cash: me $0, cat picture seller $100
Borrow and invest: you $5, bond issuer -$10, me $5, cat picture seller $100

But the real lesson here is that it's best to sell cat pictures and new cars to suckers.

I think your breakdown would be more like this:


Pay cash: me $0, cat picture seller $100Borrow and invest: you $5, bond issuer -$10, me -$95, cat picture seller $100

[Indexer]

His argument is a mix  of :

• You're always better off borrowing money if the interest rate is less than inflation or then you can make investing it, otherwise you actually LOSE money.  Hint : he doesn' t actually invest the money.
• If the car ages out of warranty, then you have to start paying for maintenance yourself.  So clearly the better option is to always drive a new car with a warranty and then you never have to come up with money if the car needs repairs.  Instead of, ya know, having a budget line item for vehicle maintenance.
• By taking out a car loan, you get a five year newer, better car with tomorrow's dollars, which, presumably are going to worth less.
• Once you pay off your car loan, the money is already in your budget for the next one.

I adore him, but something I just can't even with him. 
We agreed to disagree about the second day of our friendship, and we've been having this same exact argument since 2006 when he went with me to buy the car I'm currently driving.

Um.... bullet point 1 would make sense if it was a house... but we are talking about a new car.  The car is depreciating.....  You are still losing money.

More foam.

The actual value of the asset you're borrowing against has no relation to whether or not you should borrow to invest or pay cash.

Foam?  I'm not really sure what this is referring to?

The value doesn't really matter.  Whether it appreciates or depreciates does, and that is what I was referring to.  The original quote referenced investing the money, but the guy is actually buying a car.

Car:  If I borrow 20k to buy a car that is worth 20k today, but I'm paying interest and the car is depreciating at the end I will likely have ended up paying 30k for something that is only worth 10k at the end of the period.  20k loss.

Investing:  If you borrow 100k to buy an appreciating asset(stocks) where the growth rate is equal to or greater than the interest rate you can actually end up in a situation where you paid 200k(with interest) for something that is worth 200k or even 300k.  0 profit or 100k profit.  It could also drop off a cliff.  I'm not advocating either idea.  I was just pointing out borrowing money to buy a depreciating asset is a much worse idea than using it to buy an appreciating asset.

[ender]

You're missing the opportunity cost factor.

[QueenAlice]

Foam?  I'm not really sure what this is referring to?

You clearly haven't read this entire thread ;)

[iamlindoro]

You clearly haven't read this entire thread ;)

Nobody's read the entire thread.  It's officially longer than a Proust novel.

[QueenAlice]

You clearly haven't read this entire thread ;)

Nobody's read the entire thread.  It's officially longer than a Proust novel.

You clearly haven't read my signature ;)

Also here is where "foam" started (and is defined, we have NoraLenderbee to thank):
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/overheard-at-work/4500/

[Indexer]

Foam?  I'm not really sure what this is referring to?

You clearly haven't read this entire thread ;)

Actually... I have read most of it.  A few pages at a time.

Thanks for the link QueenAlice.  I agree.  It was starting to get a bit foamy. 

Now we are getting foamy about the topic of foam.  ;)

[Rural]

Foam?  I'm not really sure what this is referring to?

You clearly haven't read this entire thread ;)

Actually... I have read most of it.  A few pages at a time.

Thanks for the link QueenAlice.  I agree.  It was starting to get a bit foamy. 

Now we are getting foamy about the topic of foam.  ;)

Not the first time that's happened in this thread.

[solon]

Anyone remember black boxes?

[greenmimama]

Anyone remember black boxes?

You mean orange boxes?

And yes, I have read the entire thread.

[Adventine]

I have also read the entire thread.

[Paul der Krake]

Damn right I've read it all, 8855 posts over 2 and a half years since it's started. That's like 10 posts per day. Slow and steady wins the race, people!

[LeRainDrop]

Damn right I've read it all, 8855 posts over 2 and a half years since it's started. That's like 10 posts per day. Slow and steady wins the race, people!

I had surgery in early December 2014, and got four weeks of (paid!) FMLA.  Reading this thread from start to finish was one of my time-killing activities!  I think it actually took me about three months to work through the whole thing.  Anyhow, you can stuff that foam in your black/orange box!  ;-)

[iamlindoro]

Damn right I've read it all, 8855 posts over 2 and a half years since it's started. That's like 10 posts per day. Slow and steady wins the race, people!

Respect, but I felt it got pretty boring about 150 pages ago, and I quit, like a big quitty quitter.  There's the occasional highlight that actually qualifies for hall of shame, but it has mostly disintegrated into street-level, average poor financial management.

And yet, here I am.  Mostly to keep my unread replies list empty, I guess.

[dragoncar]

I have also read the entire thread.

Me too... hey has anyone else read this thread?  If so, please speak up, it might be your last chance

[TheBuddha]

I've read the whole thing too...

[Rural]

I have also read the entire thread.

Me too... hey has anyone else read this thread?  If so, please speak up, it might be your last chance

I see what you did there.

[LennStar]

Anyone remember black boxes?

You mean orange boxes?

And yes, I have read the entire thread.

the new ones are red :P

[SMP]

I have also read the entire thread.

Me too... hey has anyone else read this thread?  If so, please speak up, it might be your last chance

I have read this entire thread, too.

[Pooperman]

I have also read the entire thread.

Me too... hey has anyone else read this thread?  If so, please speak up, it might be your last chance

I have read this entire thread, too.

How many have read this thread entirely while at work overhearing stupid stuff?

[solon]

I have also read the entire thread.

Me too... hey has anyone else read this thread?  If so, please speak up, it might be your last chance

I have read this entire thread, too.

How many have read this thread entirely while at work overhearing stupid stuff?

What? Are you suggesting people don't work when they're at work?

[TexasStash]

I have also read the entire thread.

Me too... hey has anyone else read this thread?  If so, please speak up, it might be your last chance

I have read this entire thread, too.

How many have read this thread entirely while at work overhearing stupid stuff?

What? Are you suggesting people don't work when they're at work?

Blasphemy!

[frooglepoodle]

Hi all! I'm new here and I've got one from a past job that I haven't read yet (and I've read all 178 pages!).

CW was in her 30's with 3 kids and an unemployed husband, making around 40K a year without benefits in a HCOL area, and pretty open about money troubles (whole family in a one bedroom apartment, a few mentions of food stamps, etc). She was also really self conscious about her post-pregnancy figure, and had a friend of a friend who was a patient coordinator for a surgeon and was able to get her a "great price" of $5K on a tummy tuck. Somehow she was able to come up with the money to have it done. The icing on the cake, she wanted to lose more weight to get a better result and spent a ton of money on meal-replacement shakes to lose about 20 more pounds before the surgery.

Blew my mind.

[arebelspy]

Someone save a link to this page of the thread for a few months from now when someone says no one has read this whole thread!

[Elderwood17]

I think I read this entire thread while at work!

[arebelspy]

I think I read this entire thread while at work!

Overread at Work!

[Spawnstache]

First post at last... Working my way through this awesome thread but got this gem at work today.

CW1 (mustachian-to-be) (to CW2): Spawnstache has some really god advice on how to save money and get rich
CW2: So, Spawnstache, what's the secret?
Spawnstache (very flattered):Well, you have to pay yourself first. Treat your savings like your bills.
CW2: And what about the fancy stuff you want to buy?
Spawnstache: Well, mostly you don't buy it...
CW2: I'm out...

[gimp]

This one's me:

Moved to SF. 15 minute commute turned into... well, 30, if I cheat by saying that I get to work on the bus to and from work, or an hour and a half if I don't.

If it wasn't for that bus with wifi, I probably wouldn't have done it.

On the plus side, I am saving about $700-900/month depending on various factors compared to last year.

[zephyr911]

I have also read the entire thread.

Me too... hey has anyone else read this thread?  If so, please speak up, it might be your last chance

I've read it all, and if I find time to catch up on one thread, it's this one.

[ysette9]

No exactly overheard at work, but I was speaking with a friend/coworker the other day and complaining a bit about how we spend so much on groceries and how I need to get a handle on it. He asked me what I wanted to spend the money on that I wanted to free up by spending less on groceries.

It took me a moment to process before replying that I wanted to save the money, not spend it on something else. The response I got back was pretty dismissal, along the lines of "why would you want to do that?".

[BlueHouse]

I've reviewed every page, but for the section on  black, orange, and red boxes, I didn't read any part of any post after the first hundred or so where those words were mentioned.  Good God, people, that was painful!

[zephyr911]

CW with probably $70K in consumer debt frequently mentions wanting to pare that down. He's collecting his order of two $8 sushi rolls in the next cube...

[Rollin]

CWr makes about $120,000/year in a not so bad COL area.  No kids, modest house, old Toyota, just not very spendy.  30 years and fully vested in great pension.  62 years old.

Whined and complained in front of the bosses about being underpaid, at a time when they were considering promotions for CWr (and me).

Bosses changed their collective minds and went a different path.  No raises, no promotions.

CWr upset.

Me fine since FIRE is in October at 54 years old (if all goes according to plan)

[dragoncar]

No exactly overheard at work, but I was speaking with a friend/coworker the other day and complaining a bit about how we spend so much on groceries and how I need to get a handle on it. He asked me what I wanted to spend the money on that I wanted to free up by spending less on groceries.

It took me a moment to process before replying that I wanted to save the money, not spend it on something else. The response I got back was pretty dismissal, along the lines of "why would you want to do that?".

I want to save money on groceries now, so I can spend the money on groceries in the future without having to work for that money.

Someone save a link to this page of the thread for a few months from now when someone says no one has read this whole thread!

What?  I seriously doubt anyone has read EVERY post in this thread.  It's like a million pages after all.

I've reviewed every page, but for the section on  black, orange, and red boxes, I didn't read any part of any post after the first hundred or so where those words were mentioned.  Good God, people, that was painful!

I've reviewed every page, but for the ones with words on them.

[snuggler]

CWr makes about $120,000/year in a not so bad COL area.  No kids, modest house, old Toyota, just not very spendy.  30 years and fully vested in great pension.  62 years old.

Whined and complained in front of the bosses about being underpaid, at a time when they were considering promotions for CWr (and me).

Bosses changed their collective minds and went a different path.  No raises, no promotions.

CWr upset.

Me fine since FIRE is in October at 54 years old (if all goes according to plan)

Hmm. Maybe he is FI but just thinks his time is worth more? I'm surprised that he's not spendy but acted this way. Maybe he has sick or otherwise dependent family members?

[MgoSam]

CW with probably $70K in consumer debt frequently mentions wanting to pare that down. He's collecting his order of two $8 sushi rolls in the next cube...

I have been craving sushi. I might go to a Asian grocery story for lunch one of these days, it isn't cheap but it is cheaper than going to a good place to get my fix.

[firelight]

Read every post on this thread at work (mostly during lunch break but still....)

[LennStar]

CW with probably $70K in consumer debt frequently mentions wanting to pare that down. He's collecting his order of two $8 sushi rolls in the next cube...

Sushi is comparativily expensive, but for 16$ you could make enough sushi yourself to be stuffed two times and still have a few pieces to share.

What?  I seriously doubt anyone has read EVERY post in this thread.  It's like a million pages after all.

Well, I, as others, have done it. Of course, I fast read a few pages now and then, but I read it all. I started reading when it was 30 pages or so, so it was easy.

[dycker1978]

I have also read the entire thread.

Me too... hey has anyone else read this thread?  If so, please speak up, it might be your last chance

I have read this entire thread, too.

How many have read this thread entirely while at work overhearing stupid stuff?

This is me

[MgoSam]

CW with probably $70K in consumer debt frequently mentions wanting to pare that down. He's collecting his order of two $8 sushi rolls in the next cube...

Sushi is comparativily expensive, but for 16$ you could make enough sushi yourself to be stuffed two times and still have a few pieces to share.

I agree, every once in a while me and a few friends will get some good quality fish and make sushi together. It really doesn't cost all that much, around $10 per person, and maybe more if we have wine or anything else, and it is a lot of fun to do.

[mm1970]

No exactly overheard at work, but I was speaking with a friend/coworker the other day and complaining a bit about how we spend so much on groceries and how I need to get a handle on it. He asked me what I wanted to spend the money on that I wanted to free up by spending less on groceries.

It took me a moment to process before replying that I wanted to save the money, not spend it on something else. The response I got back was pretty dismissal, along the lines of "why would you want to do that?".

I went to an end-of-the-school-year beach thing yesterday. Well, my spouse took the boys, I showed up at 6:20 after getting out of work.  Not many people left.

Anyway, was talking to a man there.  I've met his wife a few times.  He's 54 with a kindergartener.  He talked about how he's in "cloud computing" and he's been very careful to pay attention to the industry all his career and make sure that he's relevant and up to date - this keeps his skills new and needed and means that the longest he has ever been unemployed is 3 months.

He said "it's important at my age so that you don't age out due to being..." I said "obsolete" and he said "no, unhireable.  It's different.  You can be relevant but unhireable because you are too old and too expensive.  But if you are very skilled, you can stay employed."  We then discussed my work and the fact that "are there any semiconductor fabs left in the US?"  Yeah, not many, hence why I'm frugal (one of the many reasons).

But I brought the subject up at lunch today, as we were eating free leftovers from the business meeting.  And my former boss (late 50's) was agreeing completely.  He said "I can run divisions and companies, so I don't suffer as much from the ageism, but it's a real thing".  And it's true for him - he's been a VP and is totally awesome.  For me though, at almost 45 - I am seeing the effects of being female (glass ceiling), being in a dying industry (very few places to move up), being a mother (not willing to work 50-60 hour weeks), and not being willing to move.  Even the very experienced and awesome people that I know, in their 50's, have taken at least 6 months to find a job, sometimes longer.  And these are people who are well known with a lot of connections.

It hit fast, too.  At 40, I realized I was protected from age discrimination and it felt silly.  It doesn't feel very silly anymore.  Companies are like the military - pyramids.  There aren't that many spots at the "top", so if you are "just an engineer", you may have 30 years of experience, but you are competing with dozens of people with 15-30 years experience.  So, do I want to be a "worker bee" known for my solid, fast, quality work?  Or do I want to try to climb the ladder?  Or what?

Interesting topic all around, and a bit depressing (you can NEVER assume that your salary will go up and up, or even hold steady, especially after 55).  I don't think most people quite work that into their retirement plans.

[Wilson Hall]

No exactly overheard at work, but I was speaking with a friend/coworker the other day and complaining a bit about how we spend so much on groceries and how I need to get a handle on it. He asked me what I wanted to spend the money on that I wanted to free up by spending less on groceries.

It took me a moment to process before replying that I wanted to save the money, not spend it on something else. The response I got back was pretty dismissal, along the lines of "why would you want to do that?".

I went to an end-of-the-school-year beach thing yesterday. Well, my spouse took the boys, I showed up at 6:20 after getting out of work.  Not many people left.

Anyway, was talking to a man there.  I've met his wife a few times.  He's 54 with a kindergartener.  He talked about how he's in "cloud computing" and he's been very careful to pay attention to the industry all his career and make sure that he's relevant and up to date - this keeps his skills new and needed and means that the longest he has ever been unemployed is 3 months.

He said "it's important at my age so that you don't age out due to being..." I said "obsolete" and he said "no, unhireable.  It's different.  You can be relevant but unhireable because you are too old and too expensive.  But if you are very skilled, you can stay employed."  We then discussed my work and the fact that "are there any semiconductor fabs left in the US?"  Yeah, not many, hence why I'm frugal (one of the many reasons).

But I brought the subject up at lunch today, as we were eating free leftovers from the business meeting.  And my former boss (late 50's) was agreeing completely.  He said "I can run divisions and companies, so I don't suffer as much from the ageism, but it's a real thing".  And it's true for him - he's been a VP and is totally awesome.  For me though, at almost 45 - I am seeing the effects of being female (glass ceiling), being in a dying industry (very few places to move up), being a mother (not willing to work 50-60 hour weeks), and not being willing to move.  Even the very experienced and awesome people that I know, in their 50's, have taken at least 6 months to find a job, sometimes longer.  And these are people who are well known with a lot of connections.

It hit fast, too.  At 40, I realized I was protected from age discrimination and it felt silly.  It doesn't feel very silly anymore.  Companies are like the military - pyramids.  There aren't that many spots at the "top", so if you are "just an engineer", you may have 30 years of experience, but you are competing with dozens of people with 15-30 years experience.  So, do I want to be a "worker bee" known for my solid, fast, quality work?  Or do I want to try to climb the ladder?  Or what?

Interesting topic all around, and a bit depressing (you can NEVER assume that your salary will go up and up, or even hold steady, especially after 55).  I don't think most people quite work that into their retirement plans.

Thank you for sharing this. I'm only a few years older than you and am aware that I'm wandering into this job-insecure demographic. This is why I'm hoping to hang onto the current job I have, warts and all, as long as it lasts and is tolerable. Due to my not beginning saving for retirement until I was almost 30, and not doing so fairly aggressively until about 8 or 9 years ago, I can't foresee retiring for at least another 9 years, barring some unforeseen windfall or major bump in salary.

[Dee]

I can't say for sure I've read the whole thread, because I don't always know where I've left off and may have missed bits and pieces. But, in general, I've read the thread, foamy parts and all.

[The Guru]

I have also read the entire thread.

Me too... hey has anyone else read this thread?  If so, please speak up, it might be your last chance

I have read this entire thread, too.

How many have read this thread entirely while at work overhearing stupid stuff?

This is me

More important- how much actual Overheard At Work stuff has gone un(over)heard because everyone was busy reading the Overheard At Work thread???

Backtoworknow!!!!!!!!!BACKTOWORK!!!!

[briandougherty]

CWr makes about $120,000/year in a not so bad COL area.  No kids, modest house, old Toyota, just not very spendy.  30 years and fully vested in great pension.  62 years old.

Whined and complained in front of the bosses about being underpaid, at a time when they were considering promotions for CWr (and me).

Bosses changed their collective minds and went a different path.  No raises, no promotions.

CWr upset.

Me fine since FIRE is in October at 54 years old (if all goes according to plan)

Hmm. Maybe he is FI but just thinks his time is worth more? I'm surprised that he's not spendy but acted this way. Maybe he has sick or otherwise dependent family members?

Yeah. It seems to me there's a Goldilocks effect going on with getting raises.  You can't be too blase and expect a raise.  You can't just whine about it either.  You have to know your boss and apply the right amount of pressure so that they know you want it and they're just a bit uncertain about what you'll do if you don't get it. If you're valuable, that will make them push for it with their higher ups.  I definitely think there's a bit of play acting to the whole thing.

Just because you don't "need" the money doesn't mean you won't angle to get paid more to meet your goals sooner or have a bit extra.

[Rural]

No exactly overheard at work, but I was speaking with a friend/coworker the other day and complaining a bit about how we spend so much on groceries and how I need to get a handle on it. He asked me what I wanted to spend the money on that I wanted to free up by spending less on groceries.

It took me a moment to process before replying that I wanted to save the money, not spend it on something else. The response I got back was pretty dismissal, along the lines of "why would you want to do that?".

I went to an end-of-the-school-year beach thing yesterday. Well, my spouse took the boys, I showed up at 6:20 after getting out of work.  Not many people left.

Anyway, was talking to a man there.  I've met his wife a few times.  He's 54 with a kindergartener.  He talked about how he's in "cloud computing" and he's been very careful to pay attention to the industry all his career and make sure that he's relevant and up to date - this keeps his skills new and needed and means that the longest he has ever been unemployed is 3 months.

He said "it's important at my age so that you don't age out due to being..." I said "obsolete" and he said "no, unhireable.  It's different.  You can be relevant but unhireable because you are too old and too expensive.  But if you are very skilled, you can stay employed."  We then discussed my work and the fact that "are there any semiconductor fabs left in the US?"  Yeah, not many, hence why I'm frugal (one of the many reasons).

But I brought the subject up at lunch today, as we were eating free leftovers from the business meeting.  And my former boss (late 50's) was agreeing completely.  He said "I can run divisions and companies, so I don't suffer as much from the ageism, but it's a real thing".  And it's true for him - he's been a VP and is totally awesome.  For me though, at almost 45 - I am seeing the effects of being female (glass ceiling), being in a dying industry (very few places to move up), being a mother (not willing to work 50-60 hour weeks), and not being willing to move.  Even the very experienced and awesome people that I know, in their 50's, have taken at least 6 months to find a job, sometimes longer.  And these are people who are well known with a lot of connections.

It hit fast, too.  At 40, I realized I was protected from age discrimination and it felt silly.  It doesn't feel very silly anymore.  Companies are like the military - pyramids.  There aren't that many spots at the "top", so if you are "just an engineer", you may have 30 years of experience, but you are competing with dozens of people with 15-30 years experience.  So, do I want to be a "worker bee" known for my solid, fast, quality work?  Or do I want to try to climb the ladder?  Or what?

Interesting topic all around, and a bit depressing (you can NEVER assume that your salary will go up and up, or even hold steady, especially after 55).  I don't think most people quite work that into their retirement plans.

Thank you for sharing this. I'm only a few years older than you and am aware that I'm wandering into this job-insecure demographic. This is why I'm hoping to hang onto the current job I have, warts and all, as long as it lasts and is tolerable. Due to my not beginning saving for retirement until I was almost 30, and not doing so fairly aggressively until about 8 or 9 years ago, I can't foresee retiring for at least another 9 years, barring some unforeseen windfall or major bump in salary.

This is interesting and important. While it happens in every industry, it seems to me that tech is more prone to age discrimination than many, and it also seems to change frequently (so that everyone gets laid off at some point). It's a field where it's possible to earn the kind of salary that leads naturally to early retirement, but also one in which "early" retirement may not be a choice but an unplanned inability to find work at some point that is decidedly not yet old (just ask Social Securtiy - old is getting older).


Seems to me that working toward FI if not RE is a necessity rather than a luxury in many cases. That's why you would want to do that.

[cripzychiken]

No exactly overheard at work, but I was speaking with a friend/coworker the other day and complaining a bit about how we spend so much on groceries and how I need to get a handle on it. He asked me what I wanted to spend the money on that I wanted to free up by spending less on groceries.

It took me a moment to process before replying that I wanted to save the money, not spend it on something else. The response I got back was pretty dismissal, along the lines of "why would you want to do that?".

I went to an end-of-the-school-year beach thing yesterday. Well, my spouse took the boys, I showed up at 6:20 after getting out of work.  Not many people left.

Anyway, was talking to a man there.  I've met his wife a few times.  He's 54 with a kindergartener.  He talked about how he's in "cloud computing" and he's been very careful to pay attention to the industry all his career and make sure that he's relevant and up to date - this keeps his skills new and needed and means that the longest he has ever been unemployed is 3 months.

He said "it's important at my age so that you don't age out due to being..." I said "obsolete" and he said "no, unhireable.  It's different.  You can be relevant but unhireable because you are too old and too expensive.  But if you are very skilled, you can stay employed."  We then discussed my work and the fact that "are there any semiconductor fabs left in the US?"  Yeah, not many, hence why I'm frugal (one of the many reasons).

But I brought the subject up at lunch today, as we were eating free leftovers from the business meeting.  And my former boss (late 50's) was agreeing completely.  He said "I can run divisions and companies, so I don't suffer as much from the ageism, but it's a real thing".  And it's true for him - he's been a VP and is totally awesome.  For me though, at almost 45 - I am seeing the effects of being female (glass ceiling), being in a dying industry (very few places to move up), being a mother (not willing to work 50-60 hour weeks), and not being willing to move.  Even the very experienced and awesome people that I know, in their 50's, have taken at least 6 months to find a job, sometimes longer.  And these are people who are well known with a lot of connections.

It hit fast, too.  At 40, I realized I was protected from age discrimination and it felt silly.  It doesn't feel very silly anymore.  Companies are like the military - pyramids.  There aren't that many spots at the "top", so if you are "just an engineer", you may have 30 years of experience, but you are competing with dozens of people with 15-30 years experience.  So, do I want to be a "worker bee" known for my solid, fast, quality work?  Or do I want to try to climb the ladder?  Or what?

Interesting topic all around, and a bit depressing (you can NEVER assume that your salary will go up and up, or even hold steady, especially after 55).  I don't think most people quite work that into their retirement plans.

Thank you for sharing this. I'm only a few years older than you and am aware that I'm wandering into this job-insecure demographic. This is why I'm hoping to hang onto the current job I have, warts and all, as long as it lasts and is tolerable. Due to my not beginning saving for retirement until I was almost 30, and not doing so fairly aggressively until about 8 or 9 years ago, I can't foresee retiring for at least another 9 years, barring some unforeseen windfall or major bump in salary.

This is interesting and important. While it happens in every industry, it seems to me that tech is more prone to age discrimination than many, and it also seems to change frequently (so that everyone gets laid off at some point). It's a field where it's possible to earn the kind of salary that leads naturally to early retirement, but also one in which "early" retirement may not be a choice but an unplanned inability to find work at some point that is decidedly not yet old (just ask Social Securtiy - old is getting older).


Seems to me that working toward FI if not RE is a necessity rather than a luxury in many cases. That's why you would want to do that.

I think the reason people think that Tech is prone to ageism is that they expect to get paid for experience that doesn't relate to the job they are applying for.  If you have 30 years total xp, but only 5 years working with a given program/language/etc; how does that make you any different than a guy with 5 years xp in that language?  Sure you probably have more 'business skills' and stuff that you can only get by working, but when looking at who is the best fit for that spot, picking the guy making 30% less with the same xp - that's not ageism.

My field (Mech Engineering) is facing a similar issue.  The gray guard is starting to realize that due to how advanced the programs we use are, their 40yrs xp working out stuff by hand that can now to solved in 5minutes if you know how to use the software doesn't count the same anymore. It isn't ageism to pay a guy 30% less that can do the work just as well, that's good business.  Now  that said, a lot of the older guys have taken a slight pay cut to keep competitive, and when it gets to only a 5-10% premium, then the older guy tends to win that battle - after all, just seeing a problem before makes you that much of a better engineer.

[partgypsy]

"I wish I could eat what you eat, but I have low glycemic index (self-diagnosed) sugar so I need to eat less carbs"

LOL