Author Topic: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)  (Read 1695815 times)

theadvicist

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1500 on: July 07, 2015, 05:24:26 AM »
Also, years ago when my mother commented on the fact I split my dishwasher tablets in half (which was to save money, but she was implying I was being oh so cheap and stingy!), I just told her, "oh, a whole tablet seams to leave residue" and that was a very acceptable answer to her. So maybe make changes and don't talk about the cost saving, but other benefits (eg environmental), but only when asked (which may well be never).

Isn't it weird how many people seem to see frugality as an inherently bad thing? If you do X in order to save money, you are "depriving yourself", if you do X for the environment or in order to become healthy or whatever, it is perfectly fine.

I know! It's so strange. I think a lot of people have hang-ups about money and don't like other people to think that they don't have any, and then project that.

I know people think we don't have much money because they are always commenting on our outdated electronics and trying to give us their cast-offs. But I don't mind them thinking that, I know the truth :)

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1501 on: July 07, 2015, 06:47:53 AM »
Also, years ago when my mother commented on the fact I split my dishwasher tablets in half (which was to save money, but she was implying I was being oh so cheap and stingy!), I just told her, "oh, a whole tablet seams to leave residue" and that was a very acceptable answer to her. So maybe make changes and don't talk about the cost saving, but other benefits (eg environmental), but only when asked (which may well be never).

Isn't it weird how many people seem to see frugality as an inherently bad thing? If you do X in order to save money, you are "depriving yourself", if you do X for the environment or in order to become healthy or whatever, it is perfectly fine.

I know! It's so strange. I think a lot of people have hang-ups about money and don't like other people to think that they don't have any, and then project that.

I know people think we don't have much money because they are always commenting on our outdated electronics and trying to give us their cast-offs. But I don't mind them thinking that, I know the truth :)

I agree.

Since I've been trying to be more frugal I have noticed the type of comments people make about money.

There are a lot of remarks I've noticed implying that rich people are crooks, as if being wealthy must mean you are doing something unethical.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1502 on: July 07, 2015, 07:08:54 AM »
Quote
Quote
Quote

You can get near-instantaneous readout by resetting it and seeing what it says.  I've used this to, for example, set my cruise control to 70-MPH on a long flat highway and hit reset.  It says 40 MPG.  Then I set it to 65-MPH and hit reset.  It says 45 MPH (numbers made up for illustrative purposes).  Then I start calculating how much more it will cost me to get there X hours earlier.

Yeah, but unlike my trip counters, I only have one mpg counter, so I'd have to give up the tank reading to "test" it that way.

I test drove a few cars that had instantaneous ones AND long term ones.  Those seemed fun, but man, it just seemed like something to get obsessive about...

So?  You know you can also calculate your tank MPG using basic math?
Did you read any of my posts? It is clear I do this. (Since I was comparing the calculated value to the car readout!) In fact, I have the notebooks from 1998, where I have done this with every tank of gas I have ever purchased, I use excel now though.   In addition to MPG, I also like to know my cents per mile.   However, one of the things I track is to compare how the car readout compares to my calculated readout. If I reset it midtank, I would have to give up that reading.  Then my spreadsheet isn't complete anymore.




Quote
I don't keep a notebook, but I do keep a pen in the car (handy in other situations too) and I just write down the odometer value on the receipt (which I need anyway to get the gallons filled).

But your way works too =)
I generally do this, but when my pen is missing, I just take a photo of the odometer with my phone.
My current car also tracks average speed, which is better than me trying to estimate city/highway. So I add that to the spreadsheet now too.  My spreadsheet also says what the general weather was like (my mileage is obviously worse in the winter.)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 07:11:19 AM by iowajes »

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1503 on: July 07, 2015, 08:05:42 AM »

You can get near-instantaneous readout by resetting it and seeing what it says.  I've used this to, for example, set my cruise control to 70-MPH on a long flat highway and hit reset.  It says 40 MPG.  Then I set it to 65-MPH and hit reset.  It says 45 MPH (numbers made up for illustrative purposes).  Then I start calculating how much more it will cost me to get there X hours earlier.

Yeah, but unlike my trip counters, I only have one mpg counter, so I'd have to give up the tank reading to "test" it that way.

I test drove a few cars that had instantaneous ones AND long term ones.  Those seemed fun, but man, it just seemed like something to get obsessive about...

So?  You know you can also calculate your tank MPG using basic math?
Did you read any of my posts? It is clear I do this. (Since I was comparing the calculated value to the car readout!) In fact, I have the notebooks from 1998, where I have done this with every tank of gas I have ever purchased, I use excel now though.   In addition to MPG, I also like to know my cents per mile.   However, one of the things I track is to compare how the car readout compares to my calculated readout. If I reset it midtank, I would have to give up that reading.  Then my spreadsheet isn't complete anymore.




Quote
I don't keep a notebook, but I do keep a pen in the car (handy in other situations too) and I just write down the odometer value on the receipt (which I need anyway to get the gallons filled).

But your way works too =)
I generally do this, but when my pen is missing, I just take a photo of the odometer with my phone.
My current car also tracks average speed, which is better than me trying to estimate city/highway. So I add that to the spreadsheet now too.  My spreadsheet also says what the general weather was like (my mileage is obviously worse in the winter.)

I just added a new columns to my spreadsheet since I know MMM, the cost/year and gallons/year. I bike a lot more, especially for short distances. Drive about 40% less km/year. Overall, my MPG is not that good but transportation cost/year is down by 4k$ (including repairs, depreciation etc) and we use 200 gallons less than before MMM.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1504 on: July 07, 2015, 08:14:56 AM »
A local gas station gives out packs of toilet paper or paper towels on Wednesdays when you spend $20. We miss out on the freebies much of the time because our Prius doesn't burn through gas fast enough.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1505 on: July 07, 2015, 08:31:17 AM »
I earned 2000 Kroger fuel points last month for buying a $500 eBay gift card which I will use for some gift card churning.

But I can't use them all! I used up 1000 points in a single fillup last month for $1 off per gallon - this is the max. But that will last me through this month and then some.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1506 on: July 07, 2015, 03:05:15 PM »
I'm relatively new to the Mustachian community, but I've been "frugal" for about the past decade (since I met my wife).

The one that bothers me the most is articles that talk about how to save more. I even think some of the MMM articles have it too. They'll always say something like "just cut your eating out expenses" or "lower the number of miles you drive."

Those are all very good ideas to cut your costs, but what do you do if you've been doing them already? You walk away from every article disappointed that you can't do more. I feel like I would get a lot of satisfaction out of giving something major up, but for the most part all of the conventional wisdom falls short.

PMG

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1507 on: July 07, 2015, 03:13:56 PM »
+1 

"Turn off the water when you brush your teeth"
"cut cable and save!"
"Buy store brands!" 

Useless.






I'm relatively new to the Mustachian community, but I've been "frugal" for about the past decade (since I met my wife).

The one that bothers me the most is articles that talk about how to save more. I even think some of the MMM articles have it too. They'll always say something like "just cut your eating out expenses" or "lower the number of miles you drive."

Those are all very good ideas to cut your costs, but what do you do if you've been doing them already? You walk away from every article disappointed that you can't do more. I feel like I would get a lot of satisfaction out of giving something major up, but for the most part all of the conventional wisdom falls short.

midweststache

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1508 on: July 07, 2015, 03:14:30 PM »
I'm relatively new to the Mustachian community, but I've been "frugal" for about the past decade (since I met my wife).

The one that bothers me the most is articles that talk about how to save more. I even think some of the MMM articles have it too. They'll always say something like "just cut your eating out expenses" or "lower the number of miles you drive."

Those are all very good ideas to cut your costs, but what do you do if you've been doing them already? You walk away from every article disappointed that you can't do more. I feel like I would get a lot of satisfaction out of giving something major up, but for the most part all of the conventional wisdom falls short.

I think that's why so much of this forum has turned to other elements of frugality--particularly environmentalism--as a means of finding something besides "just save money." If we think about other ways a consumer culture effects us all besides financially--for some, environmentalism, for others, implications for child-rearing, for still others, political policy--we can begin to see past the simple Excel spreadsheets of dollars and sense and focus on other, bigger picture items that keep us motivated in not spending and an anti-consumer lifestyle. (I understand your frustration, though; I follow very few PF blogs anymore because of this.)

Goldielocks

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1509 on: July 07, 2015, 09:49:54 PM »
My car insurance company rep 'you cant be retired at 47, the computer wont accept that'

Me ' hmmm what are we going to do then, because i am definitely retired'

Rep 'but c'mon you must do something?'

me '........i walk the dog everyday??'

Rep (increasingly desperate) 'Voluntary work... Part time.... anything?'

me ' errrr ...... nope'

Rep 'ok i'm just going to stick with your old occupation, that'll be fine.'

Argh!  Why does a man (talking to another man) have this dilemma? 
The computer most certainly would accept "Homemaker" at age 47....   It did for my DH, but sometimes he just said "Inventor" as a job description instead.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1510 on: July 07, 2015, 11:32:03 PM »

You can get near-instantaneous readout by resetting it and seeing what it says.  I've used this to, for example, set my cruise control to 70-MPH on a long flat highway and hit reset.  It says 40 MPG.  Then I set it to 65-MPH and hit reset.  It says 45 MPH (numbers made up for illustrative purposes).  Then I start calculating how much more it will cost me to get there X hours earlier.

Yeah, but unlike my trip counters, I only have one mpg counter, so I'd have to give up the tank reading to "test" it that way.

I test drove a few cars that had instantaneous ones AND long term ones.  Those seemed fun, but man, it just seemed like something to get obsessive about...

So?  You know you can also calculate your tank MPG using basic math?
Did you read any of my posts? It is clear I do this. (Since I was comparing the calculated value to the car readout!) In fact, I have the notebooks from 1998, where I have done this with every tank of gas I have ever purchased, I use excel now though.   In addition to MPG, I also like to know my cents per mile.   However, one of the things I track is to compare how the car readout compares to my calculated readout. If I reset it midtank, I would have to give up that reading.  Then my spreadsheet isn't complete anymore.

You realize you misattributed a quote by dragoncar to me right?

dragoncar

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1511 on: July 07, 2015, 11:45:14 PM »

You can get near-instantaneous readout by resetting it and seeing what it says.  I've used this to, for example, set my cruise control to 70-MPH on a long flat highway and hit reset.  It says 40 MPG.  Then I set it to 65-MPH and hit reset.  It says 45 MPH (numbers made up for illustrative purposes).  Then I start calculating how much more it will cost me to get there X hours earlier.

Yeah, but unlike my trip counters, I only have one mpg counter, so I'd have to give up the tank reading to "test" it that way.

I test drove a few cars that had instantaneous ones AND long term ones.  Those seemed fun, but man, it just seemed like something to get obsessive about...

So?  You know you can also calculate your tank MPG using basic math?
Did you read any of my posts? It is clear I do this. (Since I was comparing the calculated value to the car readout!) In fact, I have the notebooks from 1998, where I have done this with every tank of gas I have ever purchased, I use excel now though.   In addition to MPG, I also like to know my cents per mile.   However, one of the things I track is to compare how the car readout compares to my calculated readout. If I reset it midtank, I would have to give up that reading.  Then my spreadsheet isn't complete anymore.

You realize you misattributed a quote by dragoncar to me right?

Shh, you might mess up his spreadsheet.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1512 on: July 08, 2015, 07:08:19 AM »

You realize you misattributed a quote by dragoncar to me right?
Sorry- I didn't rewrite any of the names, must have misdeleted when I was snipping down the long roll of quotes.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2015, 07:09:59 AM by iowajes »

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1513 on: July 08, 2015, 07:08:50 AM »

Shh, you might mess up his spreadsheet.

Don't assume everyone on the internet is a man.

LennStar

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1514 on: July 08, 2015, 08:29:47 AM »
I fear that one day in the future I won't be able to buy a car that isn't stacked with annoying gadgetry.
Your fear is likely to come true. I sometimes read the "new car" pages in the newspaper just to find a bit fuel for my spite of "we do a SUV now, too!!" and such things.
Seems even basic "cheap" cars now have techno gadgets that I would not use when driving.
So maybe you are lucky - get a good used now without such stuff, it may be your last one.

dorothyc

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1515 on: July 08, 2015, 09:17:04 AM »
I can't do the Marie Kondo recommendation of vertically stacking my Tshirts in the drawer because I own so few of them.

TrMama

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1516 on: July 08, 2015, 10:19:10 AM »
I'm trying to buy a new-to-me car this week and am having trouble figuring out how to pay for it. Of course I have the money to pay for it up front, but it's in investment accounts that take 3 days to extract cash from. Once the trades settle, my only checking account is at a cheapy online bank that doesn't let me make a withdrawal in person (only $400/day from the ATM) and I can only get a bank draft via snail mail.

Hopefully, he'll accept either a personal check or an Interact E-transfer. However, I bet I'd have better negotiating power if I handed over a big stack of cash. It would just be a slightly smaller stack than what he wants for the car ;-)

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1517 on: July 08, 2015, 11:23:12 AM »
I can't do the Marie Kondo recommendation of vertically stacking my Tshirts in the drawer because I own so few of them.

I've cut small pieces of wood to use as drawer dividers. It holds up the stacks of t-shirts.  I've "filed" my t-shirts since I was little.  I didn't know people would do it another way. You can't see what you have.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1518 on: July 08, 2015, 12:20:33 PM »

Shh, you might mess up his spreadsheet.

Don't assume everyone on the internet is a man.

I make no such assumption.


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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1519 on: July 08, 2015, 12:48:34 PM »

Shh, you might mess up his spreadsheet.

Don't assume everyone on the internet is a man.

I make no such assumption.


The word "his" certainly was such an assumption.

Beaker

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1520 on: July 08, 2015, 01:21:44 PM »

Shh, you might mess up his spreadsheet.

Don't assume everyone on the internet is a man.

I make no such assumption.


The word "his" certainly was such an assumption.

Or it was a convenient default pronoun to use since English lacks a commonly used gender-free pronoun. Using "she" would've been an equally large assumption.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1521 on: July 08, 2015, 01:26:12 PM »

Or it was a convenient default pronoun to use since English lacks a commonly used gender-free pronoun. Using "she" would've been an equally large assumption.

How about his/her, that poster's, iowajes's. There are lots of alternatives.   I know I've made the mistake before (usually when I misremember a poster), but I tend to post s/he or his/her when I don't know.  You could even go with the grammatically incorrect "their".

The idea of a "default pronoun" minimizes people who are not the "default". As you said, English does not have a gender-neutral pronoun so "his" is NOT gender neutral, it refers to a man.  It is rude to call people who are not men by male pronouns unless they have otherwise stated they are okay with it.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1522 on: July 08, 2015, 02:30:02 PM »

Shh, you might mess up his spreadsheet.

Don't assume everyone on the internet is a man.

I make no such assumption.


The word "his" certainly was such an assumption.

Or it was a convenient default pronoun to use since English lacks a commonly used gender-free pronoun. Using "she" would've been an equally large assumption.

FFS, just use "their"!!! (Pet peeve...)

Rural

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1523 on: July 08, 2015, 07:10:47 PM »

Shh, you might mess up his spreadsheet.

Don't assume everyone on the internet is a man.

I make no such assumption.


The word "his" certainly was such an assumption.

Or it was a convenient default pronoun to use since English lacks a commonly used gender-free pronoun. Using "she" would've been an equally large assumption.

FFS, just use "their"!!! (Pet peeve...)


Gah. Please don't.


Look at it this way: with a reference to an individual person, guessing outright you have about a 50% change of getting it right if you pick a gender. With "their," you are 100% guaranteed to be wrong; the one thing you know about an anonymous poster is that there's only one,


I recommend a workaround such as screen name or he/she. Guaranteed to be correct.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1524 on: July 08, 2015, 07:20:03 PM »
Gah. Please don't.


Look at it this way: with a reference to an individual person, guessing outright you have about a 50% change of getting it right if you pick a gender. With "their," you are 100% guaranteed to be wrong; the one thing you know about an anonymous poster is that there's only one,


I recommend a workaround such as screen name or he/she. Guaranteed to be correct.
I'm just going to refer to everyone that I don't konw the gender of on here as a guy, because I don't care, I think MMM even made a post saying that a large majority of his readers are men, also that the most common occupation was Engineer, maybe I'll start calling people him PE lol

Bracken_Joy

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1525 on: July 08, 2015, 09:53:01 PM »
I think someone else had this problem earlier in thread...

We have a neighbor named Ira. Anytime DH and I try to type "Ira" on our phone it becomes "IRA".

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1526 on: July 08, 2015, 09:57:05 PM »

Or it was a convenient default pronoun to use since English lacks a commonly used gender-free pronoun. Using "she" would've been an equally large assumption.

How about his/her, that poster's, iowajes's. There are lots of alternatives.   I know I've made the mistake before (usually when I misremember a poster), but I tend to post s/he or his/her when I don't know.  You could even go with the grammatically incorrect "their".

The idea of a "default pronoun" minimizes people who are not the "default". As you said, English does not have a gender-neutral pronoun so "his" is NOT gender neutral, it refers to a man.  It is rude to call people who are not men by male pronouns unless they have otherwise stated they are okay with it.

+1

Arktinkerer

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1527 on: July 08, 2015, 10:00:18 PM »
I can't do the Marie Kondo recommendation of vertically stacking my Tshirts in the drawer because I own so few of them.

I've cut small pieces of wood to use as drawer dividers. It holds up the stacks of t-shirts.  I've "filed" my t-shirts since I was little.  I didn't know people would do it another way. You can't see what you have.

Exact opposite of you two.  I have a big bundle of tshirts I got on freecycle.  Wash them and throw into a bin.  Grab the top one for a work shirt.  If after a wash they are too worn, they become rags.  That bin/bundle of shirts has lasted me several years and is still going strong...

dragoncar

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1528 on: July 08, 2015, 11:07:25 PM »

Shh, you might mess up his spreadsheet.

Don't assume everyone on the internet is a man.

I make no such assumption.


The word "his" certainly was such an assumption.

Or it was a convenient default pronoun to use since English lacks a commonly used gender-free pronoun. Using "she" would've been an equally large assumption.

FFS, just use "their"!!! (Pet peeve...)


Gah. Please don't.


Look at it this way: with a reference to an individual person, guessing outright you have about a 50% change of getting it right if you pick a gender. With "their," you are 100% guaranteed to be wrong; the one thing you know about an anonymous poster is that there's only one,


I recommend a workaround such as screen name or he/she. Guaranteed to be correct.

This is wrong because:

1)  Sometimes people share screen names -- on this forum even.
2) he/she is not guaranteed to be correct because it does not cover dragonkin.  For all of you wondering, my preferred pronouns are scale/scales/scaleself.

If you actually care what gender someone refers to you as, I highly recommend putting your preferred pronouns in your "personal text" section.

sheepstache

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1529 on: July 09, 2015, 09:31:38 AM »

Shh, you might mess up his spreadsheet.

Don't assume everyone on the internet is a man.

I make no such assumption.


The word "his" certainly was such an assumption.

Or it was a convenient default pronoun to use since English lacks a commonly used gender-free pronoun. Using "she" would've been an equally large assumption.

FFS, just use "their"!!! (Pet peeve...)

I agree. I think singular "they" is a great grammatical solution that came about organically.

The issue with using 'he' or 'she' isn't that you might be wrong, it's that you're making an assumption without any information. If you don't know, you're allowed to write it like you don't know.

I don't have an issue with the formal use of 'he' when talking about a generic person.  I get that using male as the default gender as a convention is problematic but I accept it as, well, as a convention. But talking about a specific poster is a different kettle of fish. There's no grammatical convention behind referring to a specific real individual by a default gender.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 09:33:56 AM by sheepstache »

nobodyspecial

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1530 on: July 09, 2015, 12:02:40 PM »
Apparently "it" isn't appropriate when talking about someones baby.
It's a baby! Surely "it" is all you need  ?

Sibley

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1531 on: July 09, 2015, 12:05:52 PM »
Apparently "it" isn't appropriate when talking about someones baby.
It's a baby! Surely "it" is all you need  ?

The number of times I've offended people due to baby/pregnancy conversations...

I don't care how pregnant you are, I'm not saying a damn word until you or someone else tells me there a baby in there. I'm tired of being yelled at or making people cry.

Side bar - if you look pregnant, but are not, then either fix the physical issue or do not get offended when people mess up. It's not my fault you're fat and it's all in your stomach!

nobodyspecial

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1532 on: July 09, 2015, 12:35:59 PM »
I did that once - although the women I congratulated then took up cycling to work, so overall a win for mustachianism !

Goldielocks

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1533 on: July 09, 2015, 10:32:16 PM »
I did that once - although the women I congratulated then took up cycling to work, so overall a win for mustachianism !
Um, no, not really a win there, no matter the outcome.

2ndTimer

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1534 on: July 10, 2015, 11:17:50 AM »
I am developing an addiction to fixing up old stereo equipment.  I find myself looking at damaged speakers at the Goodwill Store and thinking about how much fun I could have repairing them before I consider whether they would actually be any better than what I have now. 

RetiredAt63

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1535 on: July 10, 2015, 03:42:58 PM »
There was a survey on the forum, and I think we ended up much closer to 50/50, and definitely not all engineers.
Lots of us are INTJ, way more than the % in the general population, from another poll.

Assumptions are dangerous. Generic (non-gendered) names are common on here.   

I'm just going to refer to everyone that I don't konw the gender of on here as a guy, because I don't care, I think MMM even made a post saying that a large majority of his readers are men, also that the most common occupation was Engineer, maybe I'll start calling people him PE lol

Sam E

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1536 on: July 10, 2015, 04:43:59 PM »
There was a survey on the forum, and I think we ended up much closer to 50/50, and definitely not all engineers.
Lots of us are INTJ, way more than the % in the general population, from another poll.

Assumptions are dangerous. Generic (non-gendered) names are common on here.   

I'm just going to refer to everyone that I don't konw the gender of on here as a guy, because I don't care, I think MMM even made a post saying that a large majority of his readers are men, also that the most common occupation was Engineer, maybe I'll start calling people him PE lol

I'd say in most discussions each person's gender is largely irrelevant anyway, so it wouldn't really matter. In discussions where your gender does matter it's not hard to simply clarify that. Any time I believe my gender might affect a discussion in one way or another I simply make a point to mention that I'm male so everyone understands that's where my perspective comes from.

Outside of that, I don't really care what gender someone assumes I am because I don't think it matters. I've had a couple people online assume I'm female, most people on the phone think I'm a 20 year old girl by the sound of my voice (having an androgynous name doesn't help that), occasionally people I meet believe I'm gay at first, and despite being 25 every person I meet believes I'm anywhere from 32 to 38 years old until I actually tell them I'm not. I've just grown to not be bothered by any of it.

Ultimately, none of it should affect the value of my opinions or anything I say, so there's no point in getting upset; once it does apparently affect that I can just correct the misunderstanding, no big deal. Just my personal view on the subject.

Michael792

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1537 on: July 12, 2015, 11:02:41 AM »
In English, as in many other languages, it has always been proper to refer to persons of unknown gender by the male pronouns. So get mad at history or something. No one's wrong by doing that. It's not like they're being misogynistic, they're just using the English language as it's been taught for centuries. (And don't start putting words in my mouth. Obviously there are no derogatory meanings to the word "he", so it doesn't compare to other historical words that are best not to use.)

sheepstache

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1538 on: July 12, 2015, 12:22:09 PM »
In English, as in many other languages, it has always been proper to refer to persons of unknown gender by the male pronouns. So get mad at history or something. No one's wrong by doing that. It's not like they're being misogynistic, they're just using the English language as it's been taught for centuries. (And don't start putting words in my mouth. Obviously there are no derogatory meanings to the word "he", so it doesn't compare to other historical words that are best not to use.)

People keep bringing this up but it's not the point. What you're talking about is the convention when talking about a generic, non-existing example person. e.g., "An investor who wants to balance his investments ought to [etc.]". What's being discussed is assuming the gender of an actual, existing individual, someone who has a specific set of genitals and/or gender identity, not a nebulous quantum androgyne. There is no grammatical convention in formal english for when there is a specific individual you're trying to refer to but you don't happen to know their gender. Well, I mean, except saying "he or she."

Michael792

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1539 on: July 12, 2015, 01:12:25 PM »
Ah. I didn't realize a specific person of unknown gender was included in that. I like learning, though, so thanks for the education. :)

Maybe people don't need to get angry about it? I'm sure no one means any harm by it. I've seen people of both genders assume something about the gender of someone else in an internet conversation, and as someone said before, it doesn't usually have any real relevance to the conversation. Most discussions and advice apply to both (should I use "all" now?) genders.

forummm

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1540 on: July 12, 2015, 01:43:59 PM »

Shh, you might mess up his spreadsheet.

Don't assume everyone on the internet is a man.

I make no such assumption.


The word "his" certainly was such an assumption.

Or it was a convenient default pronoun to use since English lacks a commonly used gender-free pronoun. Using "she" would've been an equally large assumption.

FFS, just use "their"!!! (Pet peeve...)


Gah. Please don't.


Look at it this way: with a reference to an individual person, guessing outright you have about a 50% change of getting it right if you pick a gender. With "their," you are 100% guaranteed to be wrong; the one thing you know about an anonymous poster is that there's only one,


I recommend a workaround such as screen name or he/she. Guaranteed to be correct.

Although I also used to think of "their" as plural, it is actually correct to use it as third person singular as well.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/their

Quote
Full Definition of THEIR

1
:  of or relating to them or themselves especially as possessors, agents, or objects of an action <their furniture> <their verses> <their being seen>
2
:  his or her :  his, her, its —used with an indefinite third person singular antecedent <anyone in their senses — W. H. Auden>

So this is the "safe" way to refer to a person of an unknown gender. But safe is in scare quotes because I'm sure many people like you (and me until a few months ago) will think the term is being used incorrectly.

sheepstache

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1541 on: July 12, 2015, 02:32:26 PM »
Ah. I didn't realize a specific person of unknown gender was included in that. I like learning, though, so thanks for the education. :)

Yeah, considering I went back to check which particular poster was being talked about and then gave up because it was nested too far back, it's totally understandable that now people don't know what the heck is being talked about ha ha.

Quote
Maybe people don't need to get angry about it? I'm sure no one means any harm by it. I've seen people of both genders assume something about the gender of someone else in an internet conversation, and as someone said before, it doesn't usually have any real relevance to the conversation. Most discussions and advice apply to both (should I use "all" now?) genders.

Absolutely. I don't think anyone is insulted by being mistaken for male. I mean, that would indicate a sort of messed up attitude toward men. And I don't think anyone gets angry in instances where someone hazards a guess about gender and is wrong. It's the underlying assumption that everyone is male until proven guilty that's weird.

Like, everyone, including women, tends to assume a person on the internet is male until they start talking about their boobs or dresses or something. If people truly didn't care or it wasn't relevant, they would assume the person is female some of the time. Or we could propose switching it entirely, assume someone is female until they start talking about their dick or something. But that would feel weird, right? So to me, that shows that it's a messy mental habit that would be worth getting out of.


****
But to present an actual mustachian problem!

Your SO says, "Somebody at work mentioned the guy who rides a ten speed everywhere thing from Family Guy and I was like, 'oh my gosh, that's you!'"

Gin1984

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1542 on: July 12, 2015, 06:37:13 PM »
Ah. I didn't realize a specific person of unknown gender was included in that. I like learning, though, so thanks for the education. :)

Maybe people don't need to get angry about it? I'm sure no one means any harm by it. I've seen people of both genders assume something about the gender of someone else in an internet conversation, and as someone said before, it doesn't usually have any real relevance to the conversation. Most discussions and advice apply to both (should I use "all" now?) genders.
Except that having male be the default has societal effects and harms.

firewalker

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1543 on: July 12, 2015, 07:34:52 PM »
So, one Mustachian People Problem (just for fun) is: Since we do not specify our gender when posting, we must give no indication of gender in our sentance structure or imply superiority of either gender. Using "he/she" is out because, listed either way, it implies a primary and secondary. Therefore, all references must either refer to the specific name of the referenced individual or use non gender descriptives such as "one could do this" or "the previous poster may do that." So, does that sound ok to you guys?

nobodyspecial

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1544 on: July 12, 2015, 08:42:06 PM »
Yes - If you are OK with blatant discrimination against any artificial intelligences that have saved enough from a career in HFT and are now retired to a nice LCO data center in the mid west and like to post on MMM

Michael792

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1545 on: July 12, 2015, 09:34:09 PM »
So, one Mustachian People Problem (just for fun) is: Since we do not specify our gender when posting, we must give no indication of gender in our sentance structure or imply superiority of either gender. Using "he/she" is out because, listed either way, it implies a primary and secondary. Therefore, all references must either refer to the specific name of the referenced individual or use non gender descriptives such as "one could do this" or "the previous poster may do that." So, does that sound ok to you guys?
But isn't the "=er" ending a male designation? I'm afraid the only true solution is to switch to a new language.

Pooperman

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1546 on: July 13, 2015, 05:38:20 AM »
Instead of he/she, consider (s)he?

hdatontodo

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1547 on: July 13, 2015, 05:54:39 AM »
Quote from: firewalker
... must give no indication of gender ...  to you guys?

Ha ha ha

RetiredAt63

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1548 on: July 13, 2015, 06:04:20 AM »
Around here "guys" has become gender-neutral, I say it all the time to both sexes.

Be glad you don't have to worry much about the "gender" of inanimate objects - we all know boats are "she", for some reason, but one of the hardest parts of studying French was learning whether a particular thing used "le" or "la" .

Quote from: firewalker
... must give no indication of gender ...  to you guys?

Ha ha ha

Zikoris

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Re: Mustachian People Problems (just for fun)
« Reply #1549 on: July 13, 2015, 08:07:58 AM »
Around here "guys" has become gender-neutral, I say it all the time to both sexes.

Be glad you don't have to worry much about the "gender" of inanimate objects - we all know boats are "she", for some reason, but one of the hardest parts of studying French was learning whether a particular thing used "le" or "la" .

Oh god, brings back nightmares from high school German, which has THREE genders for objects, and the gender changes other parts of the grammar also. Even now I can't remember if what objects are boys, girls, or neutrals.