Overheard on Facebook

[dragoncar]

Eating (very) well on a (relatively) modest budget is, like most other things in life a skill that needs to be learnt. It involves cooking skills, shopping skills and planning skills. Knowing what is worth paying a premium for and what is not. Knowing what to make and what to buy. Knowing when to buy what (i.e. when sth is in season).

As everyone has to eat several times every day, this is one of the most profitable skills one can develop. Knowing how to do this can be repeated totally risk free every day, every month, every year for the rest of your life. In addition it probably has significant health benefits and general well-being.

When going to a fancy restaurant one is first and foremost paying for rent and salaries, not produce. If you go to a top notch restaurant (like Michelin-star quality) and total the cost of the ingredients used to make the 7-8-15-20 courses of the meal, it is likely to be far less than one would assume. The plates do however contain large ammounts of labour and skill.

I do by no means cook fancy restaurant food at home, but I do know how to cook reasonably well for an amateur and I do understand how to eat very well without paying a lot for it. In general, eating well does not require buying expensive products. The most humble ingredients can make up a great meal when done properly.

Generally I agree with you, but ratatouille is a peasant dish!

[marty998]

In the exceptional circumstances that you apparantly make $250/hour and the only way you can earn this money is by absolutely not preparing any kind of meal at all, this makes sense from a financial point of view.

It's still not mustachian as it's still wasteful spending. And spending $50 purely on breakfast items and fruit and veg to be eaten outside of meals is still spendypants. Many people manage to buy a whole week's worth of food for that. What do you eat for breakfast? Even the most fancy breakfast I can imagine doesn't cost much more than €1-2.

I obviously could find the 30 minutes a day (give or take) that it would take to cook, on average, and save 2/3 on the food bill. But I don't want to spend that extra 30 minutes per day - it's a matter of time and mental labour as well. I prefer to have fewer things on my plate so that I have more energy for work, which is mentally draining. My partner also works full-time (she's just started a new job so is taking it very seriously) plus has a side hustle which earns her decent income. When we get down-time, we prefer to do something like gym, pool or walking as we find it more relaxing than cooking.

Breakfast - fresh fruit, granola and nuts, and soy milk / or salmon & avocado on toast plus a simple salad. Usually something like that.

Ahh see! It's not the millennial with a smashed avo problem after all. It's the old baby boomers who wag their fingers at us that secretly enjoy it haha.

I can get a decent dinner together in 30 minutes.

150g steak     ~$3.00, buy on special
Potatoes         ~50c /serve (can easily get lower but I don't buy in bulk)
Broccoli          ~$0.75 / serve (depends, can be variable, substitute with corn cob sometimes)

Seasoning and sauce is lower than a measurable cost. Chicken or beef stir fry with noodles and carrots is cheaper (I think I costed my stir fry dish here once before at $3.50 all up).

Leftovers can then be tomorrow's dinner or lunch, thus saving the cooking time.

[partgypsy]

As my father explained, it is better to use canned (plum) tomatoes for a sauce, than use fresh tomatoes that are out of season. First of all they are out of season and are not properly ripened, 2nd they are expensive. And third in season you can grow your own tomatoes (as well as herbs to go with them).

I'm doing lent and it is crazy how cheap these kind of food choices are. I actually end up overbuying at the grocery.  I know I will go back to my regular eating habits once it is over, but if I ate like this year round and did not over-buy, I would save a lot of money. 

[NorthernMonkey]

The iPhone X only came out a few years ago so anyone who can go from "being able to afford an iPhone X" to "having nil money and also having a kid" within the space of a couple of years is either very bad with money, or very very unlucky. Like, house destroyed by a tornado unlucky (and no home insurance unlucky).

I don't agree with the "no one should have an iPhone" crowd. If someone is earning a high income and can write off the iPhone as a business expense, it may well make mustachian sense to get one.

On anywhere other than MMM, someone having 6 months of living expenses in cash would be considered to be doing quite well financially.

If they lost their job 7 months ago, then they might be looking to sell their iPhone.

My iPhone XR is a business expense. I buy them new every 3-4 Years, then have a data only monthly plan.

[mm1970]

mm1970, your experience more closely matches mine, I think. I don't worry about organic too much but I buy whole wheat, I look for pasture-raised eggs & grassfed dairy (dramatically changes their nutrition profile, for the better. Pasture-raised eggs have literally 2x many of the beneficial nutrients). None of those things are as cheap as the bottom shelf choice.

The other night I was thinking about this, and the people who explain they eat like kings with four people and $100/week. I had made pasta with a roasted tomato sauce. 2lbs of tomatoes, $2/lb. 1lb of whole wheat pasta, maybe $2/lb. 2 shallots, $0.50ea. Real parmesean, olive oil, spices, and some balsamic. Grow the basil myself. It's delicious, homemade, reasonably healthy. It also probably cost $8-10, and two people eat it in one sitting. It could be done cheaper but mostly only by compromising on quality or only making it in July when tomatoes are at their cheapest.

I'm going to pursue CSA's this year. Might be my saving grace.

Farmer's markets used to be where you could go to get fresh locally produced food cheaply because the farmer could sell direct and cut out the middle man.

Now that they are trendy the prices are higher than retail and much of the food sold is not local or even grown by the "farmer" selling it.

This has been my observation as well, most of the goods are not made by the sellers and the prices aren't awesome.

CSAs are great.  I found the quality to be much better, and prices to be better than the grocery store.

Our farmer's markets are decent - they come in at about the same as grocery store prices, but for much higher quality.  Not a lot of overpriced things.  But remember, you are trying to pay the farmer a living wage, and for me - that's in California that has been suffering from water woes for years.  It's just not going to be as cheap as buying produce from Mexico.

Bulk bins, for me, are cheaper than grocery store prices but not as good as buying a 10 lb bag of rice or beans at Costco.  So I've made that trade off.

Higher quality meats and dairy are worth a bit more to me.

I don't want to start the salmon debate again...but we do eat wild salmon occasionally, and it just isn't cheap.

For awhile, I had a source for bulk-bought beef and pork from local farmers.  Even then, buying a whole pig or half a cow, it came out to $8-12 per pound.   Prices vary a LOT.  While rural areas (I grew up in one) tend to have fewer grocery store options, they are more likely to have options for meat - my local area as a child had lots of people selling eggs, beef, pork, veggies, etc. - even BEFORE you add in the Amish.

I did spend years working on the grocery budget, but eventually my dietary needs changed, my schedule changed, and while I'm willing to shop at 5 different places to get what I need at decent prices, I'm really not willing to up that to 10.

[Imma]

As my father explained, it is better to use canned (plum) tomatoes for a sauce, than use fresh tomatoes that are out of season. First of all they are out of season and are not properly ripened, 2nd they are expensive. And third in season you can grow your own tomatoes (as well as herbs to go with them).

I'm doing lent and it is crazy how cheap these kind of food choices are. I actually end up overbuying at the grocery.  I know I will go back to my regular eating habits once it is over, but if I ate like this year round and did not over-buy, I would save a lot of money.

I'm a big fan of canned pasta sauce as well. I try to can as much as possible during the season.

We had a great pasta / veggies dish the other night and it cost next to nothing. I use 75 gram of pasta per person (I can't even imagine eating half a pound of pasta each and we're big eaters) and we buy pasta from the wholesale store for like €8/5 kilo. Quality is pretty decent. A few onions (almost free) a bell pepper (I think around €3 for 5) a zucchini (€0,80 / each) a can of tomato sauce and we had a lovely meal for a couple €. The ethnic store or street market would have sold these veggies for even less but I didn't have the time to go there. I even found some Parmesan in the fridge to top it off.

[sliverstorm]

I don't want to start the salmon debate again...but we do eat wild salmon occasionally, and it just isn't cheap.

I'm exploring sardines, anchovies, herring, etc as a substitute. Frozen sardines are like $2/lb, and they are just as good in terms of omega-3, low mercury, and so forth.

Their population levels are suffering, but the main reason is because we fish 10lbs of sardines, grind them up, feed them to salmon, and produce 3-5lb of salmon. (Or other livestock with even worse ratios).

[Goldielocks]

I don't want to start the salmon debate again...but we do eat wild salmon occasionally, and it just isn't cheap.

I'm exploring sardines, anchovies, herring, etc as a substitute. Frozen sardines are like $2/lb, and they are just as good in terms of omega-3, low mercury, and so forth.

Their population levels are suffering, but the main reason is because we fish 10lbs of sardines, grind them up, feed them to salmon, and produce 3-5lb of salmon. (Or other livestock with even worse ratios).

Interesting!  This is a real debate out there.   I have visted the DFO (government) research areas that are used to control the industry and set policies.
 So  I have seen some weird things including genetically modified salmon that prove that this is likely a very bad idea in the ocean but landlocked pens might be ok...

Anyway...we have substantial strong, political debates about fish farms here, given the large wild caught industry, but this is the first I heard about salmon feed concerns.  So I looked it up.. for our local production area:
 
"Salmon farmers in B.C. are net producers of fish – meaning that it takes less than 1kg of feeder fish to produce 1kg of edible salmon. "  kg of feed to raise 1 kg of salmon (conversion ratio) is 1.2  versus 1.9 for chicken and 6+ for beef. 

Very interesting to look up, thanks for the idea.  This was my source (first hit, I did not try to do this scientifically)  http://bcsalmonfarmers.ca/growing-worlds-best-fish/

[StockBeard]

I'm dying to understand how $200/week for a family of 4 can be excessive. How can you possibly eat well (not just subsist on rice & dried beans) with $1.20/person/meal, for example? My family of 2 (although we eat 3 people's worth, tall and active) struggles to hit $200/week.

When I lived in the US (Seattle), our weekly grocery bill was around $150 for 4 (about $35~$40/week/person). We then moved to Japan in 2017, are now a family of 5, and our weekly bill is now $200 for the 5 of us (so roughly $40/week/person, a bit more expensive than what we had in the US). Overall, that's a bit less than $2 per meal per person, but grownups are probably higher and the 3 kids probably lower than that average.

We have a very diverse diet and definitely not trying to eat only rice and dried beans (but rice is definitely a staple for my wife, ha). In the US, we were mindful of our grocery bill, but not to the point that it would drive us mad. There are a few things we did to cut our expenses but I'm probably going to state the obvious: the biggest one was probably to get the "member's card" at our usual grocery stores (QFC, Safeway,...). Those cards are free and pretty much give you a 5% to 10% discount on almost everything (or you can see it the other way around: if you don't have the card you accept to pay about 10% more than regular price). The second big decrease in our grocery spending was done by looking for loss leaders in the weekly prospectus you get in the mailbox. Unsurprisingly, fruits/vegetables are cheaper in season*, etc... and all of this usually reflects in the loss leaders.

It's worth mentioning that our kids are still young and don't eat like teenagers yet. There's also some economy of scale for a family of 5 (at least in the US, less true in Tokyo were everything is prepackaged for 1 or 2 people) that might be difficult to leverage for a household of 2 . Also, we avoid HFCS like you but have no particular issue with eating soy-based products. And I understand that WA does not have sales tax on most of the food we bought, which might be a factor as well on your end.

So, I'm not totally surprised you can't get below $200 for 2 depending on where you live and your eating habits, but my experience tells me that for $150 a week you can feed a family of 4 in one of the most expensive cities of the US, without even trying hard. That being said, I'm not shocked if a family of 4 says they spend $200 a week in groceries (before tax), in particular if they have 2 teenage kids and are not aggressively trying to save on their grocery bill (whether they should try to do that before complaining about taxes is another discussion?).

Just a data point :)


* Gah, I miss the "$1.99/lb strawberries" deals at Safeway. I swear, Strawberries in Tokyo are like $2 a piece.

[Kitsune]

Yeah, we're off-topic, but I love food so I'm gonna keep running with it. :)

Gonna chime in and say, again, that quantity matters. @sliverstorm mentioned that a loaf of bread lasts a day for 2 people, which to me is mind-boggling - I make 2 loaves a week (whole wheat sourdough) and that seems to be PLENTY for a family of 4 (2 smaller children, though the toddler eats as much as I do, no teenagers - teenagers count as at least 2 adults, for meal-planning).

Cheaper meal examples (note: in CAD, so your 1.20 is 1.60 in my money!):
- Tonight, we are having a kalamata olive and herb sourdough foccacia (homemade, is rising and will get stuck in the oven when we get home: 1.50$ for ingredients, mostly because olives aren't cheap) and tomato and white bean soup (ingredients: 9$ for #10 can of san marzano tomatoes and dried white beans and a bit of cream, made with home-grown basil and chicken broth). Should be enough for dinner for 4 and lunches for 2 adults tomorrow, plus extra soup to stick in the freezer. Relatively healthy, and under 1.50/meal, once you account for the soup in the freezer for grab-and-go lunches.
- Last night, we had eggs (2 eggs for me, 1 for the preschooler, 2 for the toddler, and 3 for the husband - 2.30$), with sliced carrots, cucumbers, and tomatoes (3$), and about 1/3 of a loaf of whole-wheat bread (so, 2 slices per adult and 1-1.5 per kid - roughly 50 cents in ingredients cost). Again - under 1.50/person. (Caveat - this is my 'oh god I'm exhausted I can't deal with cooking and the kids are hangry' kind of meal)
- Last weekend, we made a merguez and bean tagine with dates and preserved lemons, on rice, with slivered fennel salad (the kids, side-note, downed that like no tomorrow). 11$ ingredients cost, fed us with an extra lunch for the adults - 1.80/portion.

... I would definitely not call this subsisting. I'm personally quite, QUITE happy with these menus.

[remizidae]

- Last night, we had eggs (2 eggs for me, 1 for the preschooler, 2 for the toddler, and 3 for the husband - 2.30$), with sliced carrots, cucumbers, and tomatoes (3$), and about 1/3 of a loaf of whole-wheat bread (so, 2 slices per adult and 1-1.5 per kid - roughly 50 cents in ingredients cost).

See, most people would not consider 2 eggs, 2 slices of bread and some raw vegetables to be dinner. That's maybe 400 calories. Which just goes to illustrate why we keep having these arguments: there is no one correct amount to spend on food. We all live in different places and have different preferences and different caloric needs. A small, sedentary woman might subsist on 1200 calories a day; an active, medium-sized woman like me might need twice that; a large, active man 3 or 4 times that. Really, spending per 1000 calories would be a better metric than spending per person.

[Kyle Schuant]

Not really, since then a person who lived on bags of raw sugar would be considered good and sensible. Most vegetables, for example, are stupidly low on calories - but we need their nutrients.

[marty998]

Not really, since then a person who lived on bags of raw sugar would be considered good and sensible. Most vegetables, for example, are stupidly low on calories - but we need their nutrients.

As are lettuce leaves - 100 grams are just 15 calories apparently.

[Kitsune]

- Last night, we had eggs (2 eggs for me, 1 for the preschooler, 2 for the toddler, and 3 for the husband - 2.30$), with sliced carrots, cucumbers, and tomatoes (3$), and about 1/3 of a loaf of whole-wheat bread (so, 2 slices per adult and 1-1.5 per kid - roughly 50 cents in ingredients cost).

See, most people would not consider 2 eggs, 2 slices of bread and some raw vegetables to be dinner. That's maybe 400 calories. Which just goes to illustrate why we keep having these arguments: there is no one correct amount to spend on food. We all live in different places and have different preferences and different caloric needs. A small, sedentary woman might subsist on 1200 calories a day; an active, medium-sized woman like me might need twice that; a large, active man 3 or 4 times that. Really, spending per 1000 calories would be a better metric than spending per person.

Exactly! And for me - eating more than that for dinner makes me nauseous, and 400cal is absolutely fine for dinner after a sedentary office day. So, yes. Quantity. It matters, a lot.

[mm1970]

- Last night, we had eggs (2 eggs for me, 1 for the preschooler, 2 for the toddler, and 3 for the husband - 2.30$), with sliced carrots, cucumbers, and tomatoes (3$), and about 1/3 of a loaf of whole-wheat bread (so, 2 slices per adult and 1-1.5 per kid - roughly 50 cents in ingredients cost).

See, most people would not consider 2 eggs, 2 slices of bread and some raw vegetables to be dinner. That's maybe 400 calories. Which just goes to illustrate why we keep having these arguments: there is no one correct amount to spend on food. We all live in different places and have different preferences and different caloric needs. A small, sedentary woman might subsist on 1200 calories a day; an active, medium-sized woman like me might need twice that; a large, active man 3 or 4 times that. Really, spending per 1000 calories would be a better metric than spending per person.

I would consider that to be dinner.  And I'm pretty active.

But I eat breakfast, lunch, and 2 snacks also. I haven't calculated by calorie intake in awhile, but it's probably easily over 2000 calories.

[dragoncar]

See, most people would not consider 2 eggs, 2 slices of bread and some raw vegetables to be dinner. That's maybe 400 calories.

So add a few shots of olive oil.  That's a healthy oil, right?

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

- Last night, we had eggs (2 eggs for me, 1 for the preschooler, 2 for the toddler, and 3 for the husband - 2.30$), with sliced carrots, cucumbers, and tomatoes (3$), and about 1/3 of a loaf of whole-wheat bread (so, 2 slices per adult and 1-1.5 per kid - roughly 50 cents in ingredients cost).

See, most people would not consider 2 eggs, 2 slices of bread and some raw vegetables to be dinner. That's maybe 400 calories. Which just goes to illustrate why we keep having these arguments: there is no one correct amount to spend on food. We all live in different places and have different preferences and different caloric needs. A small, sedentary woman might subsist on 1200 calories a day; an active, medium-sized woman like me might need twice that; a large, active man 3 or 4 times that. Really, spending per 1000 calories would be a better metric than spending per person.

I would consider that dinner. The other half absolutely would not!

[OtherJen]

- Last night, we had eggs (2 eggs for me, 1 for the preschooler, 2 for the toddler, and 3 for the husband - 2.30$), with sliced carrots, cucumbers, and tomatoes (3$), and about 1/3 of a loaf of whole-wheat bread (so, 2 slices per adult and 1-1.5 per kid - roughly 50 cents in ingredients cost).

See, most people would not consider 2 eggs, 2 slices of bread and some raw vegetables to be dinner. That's maybe 400 calories. Which just goes to illustrate why we keep having these arguments: there is no one correct amount to spend on food. We all live in different places and have different preferences and different caloric needs. A small, sedentary woman might subsist on 1200 calories a day; an active, medium-sized woman like me might need twice that; a large, active man 3 or 4 times that. Really, spending per 1000 calories would be a better metric than spending per person.

I would consider that dinner. The other half absolutely would not!

I would absolutely consider that dinner. Husband would probably want to add a couple pieces of bacon or slices of ham.

[Goldielocks]

My teeange son made that dinner last night... as a snack 2 hours after eating a nice large family dinner of whole fish, rice, three types of vegetables, and ice cream.

[AnnaGrowsAMustache]

My teeange son made that dinner last night... as a snack 2 hours after eating a nice large family dinner of whole fish, rice, three types of vegetables, and ice cream.

Teenage boys are bottomless pits.

[Kitsune]

My teeange son made that dinner last night... as a snack 2 hours after eating a nice large family dinner of whole fish, rice, three types of vegetables, and ice cream.

Teenage boys are bottomless pits.

I mean. I remember going out with my brother and his friends when they were 18, and they'd order an XL pizza and a 2l of coke for dinner. EACH. And then want ice cream. And have a snack 3 hours later.

I used to bake 2 lasagnas for dinner - 1 for the family, and 1 for him. Leftovers came from the family lasagna.

So... yeah. Teenage boys are their own category.

[ixtap]

My teeange son made that dinner last night... as a snack 2 hours after eating a nice large family dinner of whole fish, rice, three types of vegetables, and ice cream.

Teenage boys are bottomless pits.

My husband is 35 and just starting to slow down.

[letsdoit]

i have a close friend that is 46 and still eats like that.  super high metabolism and he works out hard everyday. 
he is constantly eating

[mm1970]

My teeange son made that dinner last night... as a snack 2 hours after eating a nice large family dinner of whole fish, rice, three types of vegetables, and ice cream.

Teenage boys are bottomless pits.

I mean. I remember going out with my brother and his friends when they were 18, and they'd order an XL pizza and a 2l of coke for dinner. EACH. And then want ice cream. And have a snack 3 hours later.

I used to bake 2 lasagnas for dinner - 1 for the family, and 1 for him. Leftovers came from the family lasagna.

So... yeah. Teenage boys are their own category.

Oh boy.
My teen is not there (yet).
He's eaten very little the last few days due to braces pain (skipped lunch!)
He has his moments.

But my brother used to empty out the cupboards. 

[markbike528CBX]

My teeange son made that dinner last night... as a snack 2 hours after eating a nice large family dinner of whole fish, rice, three types of vegetables, and ice cream.

Teenage boys are bottomless pits.

I mean. I remember going out with my brother and his friends when they were 18, and they'd order an XL pizza and a 2l of coke for dinner. EACH. And then want ice cream. And have a snack 3 hours later.

I used to bake 2 lasagnas for dinner - 1 for the family, and 1 for him. Leftovers came from the family lasagna.

So... yeah. Teenage boys are their own category.

Oh boy.
My teen is not there (yet).
He's eaten very little the last few days due to braces pain (skipped lunch!)
He has his moments.

But my brother used to empty out the cupboards.

I have 5 male grandchildren in one family.  Their father is 9/10th of Hulk Hogan, a big boy. 
The oldest one (teen) is too cool to visit with grandma/grandpa, which halves our visit food cost.
Their mother is 5'4? but still able to lift her husband on her shoulders ("professional wrestling" charity event).
I just don't want to contemplate their present and future food bills.

and anyway when did 13 year-olds get to be 6'3'' and 250+ lbs (some of the teen grandson's football teammates)?
That is bigger than _anyone_ on our varsity football team of 1983.
I gave up football (American style) when I realized that 139lbs centers were not long for this world.

[seathink]

An awesome, convenient, powerful boat for sale. It's been kept in the garage and it was only in the water once ....

[mustachepungoeshere]

Overheard on the weekend...

Family with two young teenagers. Mum hasn't worked since before kids were born. Dad is a tradie who was just made redundant.

He's applied for a few jobs but they're offering about $30k a year less than what he's asking.

"So what car do you think I should buy with my redundancy payout?"

[dragoncar]

Overheard on the weekend...

Family with two young teenagers. Mum hasn't worked since before kids were born. Dad is a tradie who was just made redundant.

He's applied for a few jobs but they're offering about $30k a year less than what he's asking.

"So what car do you think I should buy with my redundancy payout?"

A camper van

[markbike528CBX]

Overheard on the weekend...

Family with two young teenagers. Mum hasn't worked since before kids were born. Dad is a tradie who was just made redundant.

He's applied for a few jobs but they're offering about $30k a year less than what he's asking.

"So what car do you think I should buy with my redundancy payout?"

A camper van

"And take the skinheads bowling" - Camper Van Beethoven.

[dragoncar]

Overheard on the weekend...

Family with two young teenagers. Mum hasn't worked since before kids were born. Dad is a tradie who was just made redundant.

He's applied for a few jobs but they're offering about $30k a year less than what he's asking.

"So what car do you think I should buy with my redundancy payout?"

A camper van

"And take the skinheads bowling" - Camper Van Beethoven.

I'm sorry to say I only recently realized the "camper van" part of camper van beethoven.  I always just thought it was a guy named camper (hangs head in shame)

ps it's a good song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INnFvMgET1E

[penguintroopers]

Not financially related, but I've got one FB 'friend' who is all bothered about the new HR bill requiring that students attending public school have their MMR vaccines. Majority of her argument is "I've never been vaccinated and I've been fine! and are you ADULTS keeping up with your boosters?! Because that makes you essentially unvaccinated too!"

1. Your survivorship bias is very strong.
2. I'm sure you do other risk-mitigating procedures in your daily life (i.e. wear a seatbelt), so why is this different? (everything in vaccines has been proven safe)
3. I'm sure that adults who need their boosters will get them

It takes everything within my willpower not to want to smack her into next week.

"But I'm a medical professional too, so I'm all educated!"

Fine, you may see the statistics and have a different opinion, but I don't care about your opinion when there is a sick child (when this was preventable!) involved.

[Imma]

None of my grandparents had vaccines and they all got very old. All four of them lost siblings to preventable diseases though....

I have a little bit of understanding for people who don't vaccinate for religious reasons because it's God who decides who gets ill, not us - although as you say the same could be said about seat belts and they probably do wear those. But people who completely deny that vaccination works at all...  Two of my coworkers are anti-vaxx and very vocal about it. I get my flu jab every year and recently got a menigitis booster - yes, adults get them too, at least the sensible ones. I didn't tell them because I don't even want to have this discussion. It hurts my brain that such intelligent people can say such stupid things. Not overheard on facebook, but at least one of them has tried to show me "proof" on facebook why vaccination doesn't work, so it kind of counts, I guess?

[DadJokes]

I can't even handle conversing with that level of stupidity. I admire your ability to do so.

[Kitsune]

None of my grandparents had vaccines and they all got very old. All four of them lost siblings to preventable diseases though....

I have a little bit of understanding for people who don't vaccinate for religious reasons because it's God who decides who gets ill, not us - although as you say the same could be said about seat belts and they probably do wear those. But people who completely deny that vaccination works at all...  Two of my coworkers are anti-vaxx and very vocal about it. I get my flu jab every year and recently got a menigitis booster - yes, adults get them too, at least the sensible ones. I didn't tell them because I don't even want to have this discussion. It hurts my brain that such intelligent people can say such stupid things. Not overheard on facebook, but at least one of them has tried to show me "proof" on facebook why vaccination doesn't work, so it kind of counts, I guess?

I mean... My grandfather lived to adulthood, sure. But my great-grandmother had 22 pregnancies, 18 live births, and 10 adult children.

Let's just say that I don't particularly like those odds.

[ysette9]

The measles scares all around us infuriate me. My family is vaccinated but I’m pregnant, so exposure for me would cause significant damage. I never really appreciated how vulnerable of a position that puts me in. It feels massively unfair.

What a bunch of freaking idiots. I share the sentiment of wanting to wring necks.

[I'm a red panda]

The measles scares all around us infuriate me. My family is vaccinated but I’m pregnant, so exposure for me would cause significant damage. I never really appreciated how vulnerable of a position that puts me in. It feels massively unfair.

What a bunch of freaking idiots. I share the sentiment of wanting to wring necks.

The measles thing terrifies me too.  We waited until first vaccines to travel with our first daughter, but that still doesn't cover MMR, which is typically at 1 year can be done at 6 months, but you can't vaccinate an infant before then.  So that really limits travel (we will NOT fly before 6 months; when normally we would have much earlier), but quite honestly- it makes even going to the grocery store scary.

I read today an article about the woman who played Marcia in the Brady Bunch. She had a line that was something like "if you have to get sick, measles is the way to go" and is now being used by anti-vaxxers.  The actress has said she got measles as a child (and obviously not a case with massive complications) and it was nothing like the TV show portrayed, and her kids are vaccinated, and her image is being misused. 

I've also seen photos of babies with measles on facebook, and the comments are blaming THOSE babies parents for not vaccinating; not the people who spread it. People don't seem to understand that infants CAN'T be vaccinated.

[fredbear]

... It hurts my brain that such intelligent people can say such stupid things. Not overheard on facebook, but at least one of them has tried to show me "proof" on facebook why vaccination doesn't work, so it kind of counts, I guess?

I read recently that Boulder is just above San Luis for lowest vaccination percentages in Colorado.   San Luis County has the excuse of extreme poverty, rural isolation and comparatively poor access to education.  Boulder touts itself, frequently and in print, as an exemplar not just to the rest of the state, but to the nation, and when our heads are self-swollen to cosmic rotundity, even to the admiring and waiting world.  We actually have political 'leaders' state, for instance, that we need to do something with special deliberation or special seriousness because the world is watching and waiting for our example.  People sometimes remark that the extreme right and left tend to meet; perhaps with all our acuity we will dimly notice that the spiritually hubristic and the screamingly funny copulate on the 'news' pages of the Boulder Daily Camera. 

Yet with all our education and all our investigation - we are, after all, host to a great research university - we can't seem to discover that Wakefield's seminal paper was not merely wrong, or unconfirmed, but fraudulent; was withdrawn; and he stripped of his MD.  Or if we do, we murmur darkly that it was the sinister influence of Big Vax and Big Pharma and Big Codswallop that got this modern Galileo stifled. 

Across a generation gap I share your relief when the grandchildren's mommies, daughter and daughters-in-law and none of them airheads, get the kids safe to the age when they can start their vaccinations.  Ladies, strength to your arm. 

[Imma]

I heard through the grapevine that the husband of a facebook friend of mine (a girl I went to high school with) who frequently posts anti-vaxx stuff has succesfully threatened with divorce if she didn't consent to their baby being vaccinated. The husband is a softie normally so I was really happy to hear that he's finally stepping up as a parent and doing what's right.

I am super glad that in my country kids over the age of 12 do not need the consent of their parents for vaccination and can be vaccinated without their parents' knowledge, as long as the doctor is of the opinion that the minor has seriously considered their decision. If there's a charity that is actively approaching unvaccinated minors and informing them of this option, I would gladly support it.

The measles outbreaks in other countries have been scary. We haven't had an outbreak yet, thankfully, but nationally we're under the 95% vaccinated-threshold. What worries me most is that these are not isolated cases - there are fundamentalist Christian and Steiner schools full of unvaccinated kids. An outbreak could do so much damage there, way more than when one or two unvaccinated kids go to a public school. I remember back in the 90s there was an outbreak of polio in a fundamentalist Christian community and one of my dad's coworker's kids got sick. Yes, that's right. Kids died of POLIO in the Netherlands in the 90s. In one of the most medically advanced countries in the world with a free public health system kids got polio and passed away or were disabled for life, because apparantly it pleased the Lord to give them polio.

[Zaga]

My dad was/is an anti vaxxer, but mom got us vaccinated anyways on schedule.  I'm very thankful for this.

[Rural]

Boulder touts itself, frequently and in print, as an exemplar not just to the rest of the state, but to the nation, and when our heads are self-swollen to cosmic rotundity, even to the admiring and waiting world.  We actually have political 'leaders' state, for instance, that we need to do something with special deliberation or special seriousness because the world is watching and waiting for our example.

Why do politicians in Boulder think this? Genuinely confused. I have no idea what Boulder has done about anything, except that I assume marijuana is legal since it's legal statewide. But I have never heard anything specific about how anything is done in Boulder in a lifetime spent in the US.

[ixtap]

Boulder touts itself, frequently and in print, as an exemplar not just to the rest of the state, but to the nation, and when our heads are self-swollen to cosmic rotundity, even to the admiring and waiting world.  We actually have political 'leaders' state, for instance, that we need to do something with special deliberation or special seriousness because the world is watching and waiting for our example.

Why do politicians in Boulder think this? Genuinely confused. I have no idea what Boulder has done about anything, except that I assume marijuana is legal since it's legal statewide. But I have never heard anything specific about how anything is done in Boulder in a lifetime spent in the US.

You have had your head buried in the sand. Boulder comes up whenever cities are discussing bikeability and city maintained open spaces, and consistently tops lists for happiness and fitness.

[OtherJen]

Boulder touts itself, frequently and in print, as an exemplar not just to the rest of the state, but to the nation, and when our heads are self-swollen to cosmic rotundity, even to the admiring and waiting world.  We actually have political 'leaders' state, for instance, that we need to do something with special deliberation or special seriousness because the world is watching and waiting for our example.

Why do politicians in Boulder think this? Genuinely confused. I have no idea what Boulder has done about anything, except that I assume marijuana is legal since it's legal statewide. But I have never heard anything specific about how anything is done in Boulder in a lifetime spent in the US.

Also confused, and also a lifelong US citizen and resident. I know very little about Boulder beyond Stephen King’s “The Stand” and reruns of “Mork and Mindy.”

[Rural]

Boulder touts itself, frequently and in print, as an exemplar not just to the rest of the state, but to the nation, and when our heads are self-swollen to cosmic rotundity, even to the admiring and waiting world.  We actually have political 'leaders' state, for instance, that we need to do something with special deliberation or special seriousness because the world is watching and waiting for our example.

Why do politicians in Boulder think this? Genuinely confused. I have no idea what Boulder has done about anything, except that I assume marijuana is legal since it's legal statewide. But I have never heard anything specific about how anything is done in Boulder in a lifetime spent in the US.

You have had your head buried in the sand. Boulder comes up whenever cities are discussing bikeability and city maintained open spaces, and consistently tops lists for happiness and fitness.

So then I guess there is no self-swelling nor cosmic rotundity.

[Rural]

Boulder touts itself, frequently and in print, as an exemplar not just to the rest of the state, but to the nation, and when our heads are self-swollen to cosmic rotundity, even to the admiring and waiting world.  We actually have political 'leaders' state, for instance, that we need to do something with special deliberation or special seriousness because the world is watching and waiting for our example.

Why do politicians in Boulder think this? Genuinely confused. I have no idea what Boulder has done about anything, except that I assume marijuana is legal since it's legal statewide. But I have never heard anything specific about how anything is done in Boulder in a lifetime spent in the US.

Also confused, and also a lifelong US citizen and resident. I know very little about Boulder beyond Stephen King’s “The Stand” and reruns of “Mork and Mindy.”

I know it has a university. And mountains. But I didn't know Mork and Mindy was set there, though I did watch it (not in reruns because I'm old).

[chouchouu]

Someone on one of the parenting groups asked for eco friendly plates and stuff for a birthday party. I offered to lend mine for free, her reply was "no thanks I have those same plates but I'm after disposable!"

Seems disposable biodegradable plates and cutlery are all the rage as everyone is using them yet somehow can't be bothered washing a few plates.

[NorCal]

Someone on one of the parenting groups asked for eco friendly plates and stuff for a birthday party. I offered to lend mine for free, her reply was "no thanks I have those same plates but I'm after disposable!"

Seems disposable biodegradable plates and cutlery are all the rage as everyone is using them yet somehow can't be bothered washing a few plates.

Yikes.  Sometimes I wonder if all of these "eco-friendly" products do more harm than good.  They can certainly act as an excuse to behave in the most wasteful manner possible.

[mm1970]

My dad was/is an anti vaxxer, but mom got us vaccinated anyways on schedule.  I'm very thankful for this.

My neighbor is an anti-vaxxer.  When her 20-yo son went to the doc right before going off to a UC, he went in without her (she was still driving him to the doc!)  He said: Give me all my vaccines please.

She was pissed, or so the story goes.

[ysette9]

My dad was/is an anti vaxxer, but mom got us vaccinated anyways on schedule.  I'm very thankful for this.

My neighbor is an anti-vaxxer.  When her 20-yo son went to the doc right before going off to a UC, he went in without her (she was still driving him to the doc!)  He said: Give me all my vaccines please.

She was pissed, or so the story goes.

Good for him

[markbike528CBX]

My dad was/is an anti vaxxer, but mom got us vaccinated anyways on schedule.  I'm very thankful for this.

My neighbor is an anti-vaxxer.  When her 20-yo son went to the doc right before going off to a UC, he went in without her (she was still driving him to the doc!)  He said: Give me all my vaccines please.

She was pissed, or so the story goes.

Good for him

AND he doesn't need boosters for a while yet.  Fresh immunizations with up-to-date vaccines before heading out of the house sounds like a great idea, especially given some exposures you'd get at college (UC?), per the news lately.
 

[chouchouu]

Someone on one of the parenting groups asked for eco friendly plates and stuff for a birthday party. I offered to lend mine for free, her reply was "no thanks I have those same plates but I'm after disposable!"

Seems disposable biodegradable plates and cutlery are all the rage as everyone is using them yet somehow can't be bothered washing a few plates.

Yikes.  Sometimes I wonder if all of these "eco-friendly" products do more harm than good.  They can certainly act as an excuse to behave in the most wasteful manner possible.

Apparently the biodegradable plastic bags are worse for the environment because they degrade into smaller particles that can be consumed by animals.