Author Topic: Overheard on Facebook  (Read 4790179 times)

StockBeard

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6950 on: December 04, 2017, 12:57:02 AM »
TWO MILLION?!!!!

I'm not surprised. Our 3rd kid was born prematurely and the final bill for her birth, the NICU treatment, and my wife's hospital stay was about $600K*. So, for a critically ill child who needs constant treatment, I'm actually surprised it doesn't go way higher than 2 million.

* That's what was billed to the insurance. We had to pay about $10K out of pocket.

former player

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6951 on: December 04, 2017, 03:55:18 AM »
Sometimes the extra cost of better cooking tools helps. I have some very cheap pots and pans that have warped over the years so that they rock on the stove top. We also have a few nicer examples that were made with thicker materials that have not warped. From time to time I've used a rubber mallet to reflatten the bottoms of the cheaper pots which dance on the stove top.

We have a mix of really cheap and somewhat better kitchen things. We're replacing with the better quality things as the cheapest stuff wears out.
Newsflash: once the bottoms of the pans have warped sufficiently to rock on the stove top they are officially worn out.

marielle

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6952 on: December 04, 2017, 06:12:50 AM »
Sometimes the extra cost of better cooking tools helps. I have some very cheap pots and pans that have warped over the years so that they rock on the stove top. We also have a few nicer examples that were made with thicker materials that have not warped. From time to time I've used a rubber mallet to reflatten the bottoms of the cheaper pots which dance on the stove top.

We have a mix of really cheap and somewhat better kitchen things. We're replacing with the better quality things as the cheapest stuff wears out.
Newsflash: once the bottoms of the pans have warped sufficiently to rock on the stove top they are officially worn out.

I switched to 100% cast iron because of this reason. They're buy it for life and I might have birds one day. They recommend no non-stick for birds (and humans, really, but our respiratory systems aren't quite as sensitive).

CindyBS

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6953 on: December 04, 2017, 10:36:31 AM »
TWO MILLION?!!!!

Give or take $100K, yes.  My son has cancer and had a bone marrow transplant in June.  The transplant itself was about $1Million alone and included 39 day stay in the ICU.

My son has spent more than 150+ days in the hospital since his diagnosis in 2016 (unlike adult cancer, the majority of childhood cancer is treated inpatient since the treatments are so much more life threatening and intense). 

I think his pharmacy charge alone for Jan. 2017 was $156,000 (before negotiated rate which is probably more like $90,000). He takes a drug that costs $11,000 per month at home.  Chemo is big, big business where they like to price gouge people at their very most vulnerable.  The CEO of the company that makes the chemo drug he takes at home got $15 Million of compensation in 2015. 

Without the protections of the limitations of lifetime max of the ACA, our son would have completed maxed out his lifetime max in 1 year, before he even reached his 15th birthday.  This is why blanket repeal of the ACA is so extremely dangerous for those of us with critically ill kids, and we have employer based insurance.   If we had been on our previous, pre-ACA insurance plan that had a lifetime max, we would be financially ruined by now.

RidetheRain

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6954 on: December 04, 2017, 10:50:10 AM »
TWO MILLION?!!!!

Give or take $100K, yes.  My son has cancer and had a bone marrow transplant in June.  The transplant itself was about $1Million alone and included 39 day stay in the ICU.

My son has spent more than 150+ days in the hospital since his diagnosis in 2016 (unlike adult cancer, the majority of childhood cancer is treated inpatient since the treatments are so much more life threatening and intense). 

I think his pharmacy charge alone for Jan. 2017 was $156,000 (before negotiated rate which is probably more like $90,000). He takes a drug that costs $11,000 per month at home.  Chemo is big, big business where they like to price gouge people at their very most vulnerable.  The CEO of the company that makes the chemo drug he takes at home got $15 Million of compensation in 2015. 

Without the protections of the limitations of lifetime max of the ACA, our son would have completed maxed out his lifetime max in 1 year, before he even reached his 15th birthday.  This is why blanket repeal of the ACA is so extremely dangerous for those of us with critically ill kids, and we have employer based insurance.   If we had been on our previous, pre-ACA insurance plan that had a lifetime max, we would be financially ruined by now.

I'm sad to hear this story, I hope your son recovers from his surgeries well.

Another bad part of a blanket repeal would add insult to injury. If people can't pay their medical bills (which I think Cindy has proven is very likely) then it just goes back to the taxpayer. The government covers loss of payment for hospitals. If insurance is done and the hospital can't get money from you then they get it from the government. This includes things like the ER which is where people are more likely to end up if they can't afford preventative care. So it would be a double whammy. First, you wreck people financially that already have an illness/disease to deal with and then you charge the taxpayers more than if you just made it reasonable to begin with.

Just Joe

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6955 on: December 04, 2017, 11:26:17 AM »
Did the Republican tax bill repeal the ACA too? I know they were talking about that but I never heard if they did it.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6956 on: December 04, 2017, 11:31:56 AM »
Did the Republican tax bill repeal the ACA too? I know they were talking about that but I never heard if they did it.
My understanding is that it only repeals the individual mandate, not the ACA as a whole, so all the regulations are still in place.  Of course, it still has to actually *pass* the senate, then get through conference committee, and then get passed by both houses again, so your guess is as good as mine whether it will actually happen.

CindyBS

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6957 on: December 04, 2017, 03:52:25 PM »
Did the Republican tax bill repeal the ACA too? I know they were talking about that but I never heard if they did it.
My understanding is that it only repeals the individual mandate, not the ACA as a whole, so all the regulations are still in place.  Of course, it still has to actually *pass* the senate, then get through conference committee, and then get passed by both houses again, so your guess is as good as mine whether it will actually happen.

I had heard the same.  I brought up the ACA b/c we are always at risk of repeal.  I think many people have the misconception that if you are a high income earner with private insurance, the ACA doesn't affect you - but it affects everyone.  We are all 1 serious illness away from financial ruin without its protections.  The year before my son was diagnosed, we had about $500 of medical expenses - just a couple office visits. We had no warning of my son's cancer and it is not hereditary, so no family history.   It literally came out of nowhere.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6958 on: December 04, 2017, 04:11:05 PM »
Did the Republican tax bill repeal the ACA too? I know they were talking about that but I never heard if they did it.
My understanding is that it only repeals the individual mandate, not the ACA as a whole, so all the regulations are still in place.  Of course, it still has to actually *pass* the senate, then get through conference committee, and then get passed by both houses again, so your guess is as good as mine whether it will actually happen.

I had heard the same.  I brought up the ACA b/c we are always at risk of repeal.  I think many people have the misconception that if you are a high income earner with private insurance, the ACA doesn't affect you - but it affects everyone.  We are all 1 serious illness away from financial ruin without its protections.  The year before my son was diagnosed, we had about $500 of medical expenses - just a couple office visits. We had no warning of my son's cancer and it is not hereditary, so no family history.   It literally came out of nowhere.
One correction to what I said above--the Senate *has* passed their version of the bill.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6959 on: December 05, 2017, 02:32:10 PM »
Give or take $100K, yes. 
Your country is beyond hope.

AlanStache

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6960 on: December 05, 2017, 02:51:37 PM »
Give or take $100K, yes. 
Your country is beyond hope.

No no no, I am told we are now winning like never before.

AlanStache

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6961 on: December 05, 2017, 02:52:41 PM »
Give or take $100K, yes. 
Your country is beyond hope.

No no no, I am told we are now winning like never before.

ixtap

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6962 on: December 05, 2017, 02:55:50 PM »
Give or take $100K, yes. 
Your country is beyond hope.

No no no, I am told we are now winning like never before.

Bigger medical bills = FREEDOM!

Bigger deficit = FREEDOM!


BDWW

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6963 on: December 05, 2017, 04:40:09 PM »
Give or take $100K, yes. 
Your country is beyond hope.

No no no, I am told we are now winning like never before.

Obviously someone is... Do you think all that money is just disappearing into the ether?

AlanStache

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6964 on: December 05, 2017, 05:03:57 PM »
Give or take $100K, yes. 
Your country is beyond hope.

No no no, I am told we are now winning like never before.

Obviously someone is... Do you think all that money is just disappearing into the ether?

Former gf was making 200k-300k/year selling medical devices to hospitals.  I never understood how she added more value than a website.  Her company made some really dumb manufacturing mistakes too; like shipping products after a change and not in any way testing the change.  There was some dumb stuff like that that are the reason we have to have stupid laws.  But she had a really nice house and her gardener was a good guy so the money was being put back into the economy... 


lbmustache

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6965 on: December 06, 2017, 09:30:03 AM »
Did the Republican tax bill repeal the ACA too? I know they were talking about that but I never heard if they did it.
My understanding is that it only repeals the individual mandate, not the ACA as a whole, so all the regulations are still in place.  Of course, it still has to actually *pass* the senate, then get through conference committee, and then get passed by both houses again, so your guess is as good as mine whether it will actually happen.

House bill keeps the individual mandate, Senate bill removes it. I'm curious to see if it makes it to the final bill, however I did read that the House may approve the Senate measure if negotiations fail. Repeal of the individual mandate means those of us who don't qualify for subsidies and pay for insurance out of pocket will have much higher premiums.

Sibley

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6966 on: December 06, 2017, 10:48:59 AM »
Give or take $100K, yes. 
Your country is beyond hope.

I'm an optimist (realist). We're not beyond hope. Our current form of government may be, our current crop of politicians may be, but if Germany can come back from WWII, then the US can come back from the current shit show.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6967 on: December 06, 2017, 11:56:49 AM »
Did the Republican tax bill repeal the ACA too? I know they were talking about that but I never heard if they did it.
My understanding is that it only repeals the individual mandate, not the ACA as a whole, so all the regulations are still in place.  Of course, it still has to actually *pass* the senate, then get through conference committee, and then get passed by both houses again, so your guess is as good as mine whether it will actually happen.

House bill keeps the individual mandate, Senate bill removes it. I'm curious to see if it makes it to the final bill, however I did read that the House may approve the Senate measure if negotiations fail. Repeal of the individual mandate means those of us who don't qualify for subsidies and pay for insurance out of pocket will have much higher premiums.
That's probably correct, because the young, healthier population will opt out of insurance, since it's already expensive and they'd be subsidizing the older/sicker part of the population.

RidetheRain

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6968 on: December 06, 2017, 12:38:42 PM »
It's not just the young and healthy that would forgo purchasing insurance. People that have trouble affording insurance (young people are double screwed here I think) probably look at insurance as "pre-debt" to the medical emergency.

I know there are stories of people paying thousands out of pocket for copays and deductibles. I could absolutely see someone thinking that they're going to be in debt either way and opt for more money now.

infogoon

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6969 on: December 06, 2017, 01:25:51 PM »
That's probably correct, because the young, healthier population will opt out of insurance, since it's already expensive and they'd be subsidizing the older/sicker part of the population.

One of my favorite pastimes at family functions is listening to the Baby Boomers complaining about the ACA, without ever acknowledging (or realizing) how much of it was put in place to help their older, unhealthy generation at the expense of the Millennials and Xers.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6970 on: December 06, 2017, 02:13:44 PM »
That's probably correct, because the young, healthier population will opt out of insurance, since it's already expensive and they'd be subsidizing the older/sicker part of the population.

One of my favorite pastimes at family functions is listening to the Baby Boomers complaining about the ACA, without ever acknowledging (or realizing) how much of it was put in place to help their older, unhealthy generation at the expense of the Millennials and Xers.

Or to keep them from going broke paying for medical treatment for an aging mother or father.

MrMoogle

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6971 on: December 06, 2017, 02:43:31 PM »
That's probably correct, because the young, healthier population will opt out of insurance, since it's already expensive and they'd be subsidizing the older/sicker part of the population.

One of my favorite pastimes at family functions is listening to the Baby Boomers complaining about the ACA, without ever acknowledging (or realizing) how much of it was put in place to help their older, unhealthy generation at the expense of the Millennials and Xers.

Or to keep them from going broke paying for medical treatment for an aging mother or father.
Or forcing them to watch a parent rapidly decline when there is a cure/treatment, just you can't afford it.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6972 on: December 08, 2017, 05:45:37 AM »
It's not just the young and healthy that would forgo purchasing insurance. People that have trouble affording insurance (young people are double screwed here I think) probably look at insurance as "pre-debt" to the medical emergency.

I know there are stories of people paying thousands out of pocket for copays and deductibles. I could absolutely see someone thinking that they're going to be in debt either way and opt for more money now.

Funny, the copay and a sudden change when I had to pay for routine labwork is the reason I give for switching from Blue Cross to a HDHP plan, I figured if I was going to have to pay for it anyway I might as well have a cheaper health insurance.  (I then learned about tax sheltering in my HSA)

RidetheRain

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6973 on: December 08, 2017, 09:56:04 AM »
It's not just the young and healthy that would forgo purchasing insurance. People that have trouble affording insurance (young people are double screwed here I think) probably look at insurance as "pre-debt" to the medical emergency.

I know there are stories of people paying thousands out of pocket for copays and deductibles. I could absolutely see someone thinking that they're going to be in debt either way and opt for more money now.

Funny, the copay and a sudden change when I had to pay for routine labwork is the reason I give for switching from Blue Cross to a HDHP plan, I figured if I was going to have to pay for it anyway I might as well have a cheaper health insurance.  (I then learned about tax sheltering in my HSA)

I have a similar situation. My regular health plan used to have a $500 deductible. My company has a $500 benefit if you have a HDHP with health fund. My typical yearly healthcare is pretty expensive, but with the company assist, lower monthly cost, and tax sheltering I actually come out on top even with health problems with HDHP. If it helps me with a chronic issue I can only imagine how much better they are for actual healthy people.

eljefe-speaks

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6974 on: December 08, 2017, 02:42:27 PM »
Give or take $100K, yes. 
Your country is beyond hope.

No no no, I am told we are now winning like never before.

Bigger medical bills = FREEDOM!

Bigger deficit = FREEDOM!

Being always slightly worried your might get gunned down in public = FREEDOM!

eljefe-speaks

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6975 on: December 08, 2017, 02:45:59 PM »
Give or take $100K, yes. 
Your country is beyond hope.

I'm an optimist (realist). We're not beyond hope. Our current form of government may be, our current crop of politicians may be, but if Germany can come back from WWII, then the US can come back from the current shit show.

Most encouraging thing I have read in a loooooong time, thanks.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6976 on: December 09, 2017, 01:31:02 AM »
I'm an optimist (realist). We're not beyond hope. Our current form of government may be, our current crop of politicians may be, but if Germany can come back from WWII, then the US can come back from the current shit show.
So what you're saying is that the US will be fine so long as it suffers aerial firebombing of major cities, invasion and 50 years of foreign military occupation and partition?

And this makes you an optimist?

Jacana

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6977 on: December 09, 2017, 10:13:41 AM »
That's probably correct, because the young, healthier population will opt out of insurance, since it's already expensive and they'd be subsidizing the older/sicker part of the population.

One of my favorite pastimes at family functions is listening to the Baby Boomers complaining about the ACA, without ever acknowledging (or realizing) how much of it was put in place to help their older, unhealthy generation at the expense of the Millennials and Xers.

My mother, a tail end baby boomer just about to turn 60, has been hearing this crap from her older relatives for a few years now. She has now refined her response to a single zinger: "Oh, so you declined Medicare then?" That usually ends the conversation fast.

barbaz

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6978 on: December 09, 2017, 10:27:44 AM »
I'm an optimist (realist). We're not beyond hope. Our current form of government may be, our current crop of politicians may be, but if Germany can come back from WWII, then the US can come back from the current shit show.
So what you're saying is that the US will be fine so long as it suffers aerial firebombing of major cities, invasion and 50 years of foreign military occupation and partition?

And this makes you an optimist?
TBH I think it’s easier to recover from that than from the host of problems the US currently has

Rowellen

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6979 on: December 09, 2017, 02:36:52 PM »
Buy $500 wallet to start saving more?
Posted in a decluttering/minimalist FB group I'm part of.

NoraLenderbee

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6980 on: December 09, 2017, 03:40:50 PM »
I'm an optimist (realist). We're not beyond hope. Our current form of government may be, our current crop of politicians may be, but if Germany can come back from WWII, then the US can come back from the current shit show.
So what you're saying is that the US will be fine so long as it suffers aerial firebombing of major cities, invasion and 50 years of foreign military occupation and partition?


We just need to cause 40-50 million deaths. That should be easy. 

shelivesthedream

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6981 on: December 09, 2017, 04:04:22 PM »
I'm an optimist (realist). We're not beyond hope. Our current form of government may be, our current crop of politicians may be, but if Germany can come back from WWII, then the US can come back from the current shit show.
So what you're saying is that the US will be fine so long as it suffers aerial firebombing of major cities, invasion and 50 years of foreign military occupation and partition?

And this makes you an optimist?

You do realise that's the point? Germany recovered from even all that shit. Therefore the US, which hasn't had to deal with all that, will definitely recover from the current comparatively minor shit.

Sibley

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6982 on: December 09, 2017, 05:33:21 PM »
I'm an optimist (realist). We're not beyond hope. Our current form of government may be, our current crop of politicians may be, but if Germany can come back from WWII, then the US can come back from the current shit show.
So what you're saying is that the US will be fine so long as it suffers aerial firebombing of major cities, invasion and 50 years of foreign military occupation and partition?

And this makes you an optimist?

You do realise that's the point? Germany recovered from even all that shit. Therefore the US, which hasn't had to deal with all that, will definitely recover from the current comparatively minor shit.

Thank you, shelivesthedream.

I don't think it'll be easy, or pretty. But if a country that was as destroyed as Germany was after WWII- physically, fiscally, culturally - can rebuild, then the US can fix itself. Somehow.

merula

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6983 on: December 09, 2017, 06:04:19 PM »
I'm an optimist (realist). We're not beyond hope. Our current form of government may be, our current crop of politicians may be, but if Germany can come back from WWII, then the US can come back from the current shit show.
So what you're saying is that the US will be fine so long as it suffers aerial firebombing of major cities, invasion and 50 years of foreign military occupation and partition?

And this makes you an optimist?

You do realise that's the point? Germany recovered from even all that shit. Therefore the US, which hasn't had to deal with all that, will definitely recover from the current comparatively minor shit.

Thank you, shelivesthedream.

I don't think it'll be easy, or pretty. But if a country that was as destroyed as Germany was after WWII- physically, fiscally, culturally - can rebuild, then the US can fix itself. Somehow.

Just as long as we keep in mind that "we can fix this" doesn't mean "we will totally eradicate racism". Germany has made immense progress in this; far more than their neighbors who, it should be noted, were just as racist and anti-Semitic at the beginning of the 20th century. But there are still German racists, there are still Nazis. They are just so marginalized as to not be an issue.

We may also need to split the country in two for 50 years as part of the solution. Which, honestly, I'm fine with, as half the country seems peachy-keen on being ruled by Russia.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6984 on: December 09, 2017, 06:30:42 PM »
I'm an optimist (realist). We're not beyond hope. Our current form of government may be, our current crop of politicians may be, but if Germany can come back from WWII, then the US can come back from the current shit show.
So what you're saying is that the US will be fine so long as it suffers aerial firebombing of major cities, invasion and 50 years of foreign military occupation and partition?


We just need to cause 40-50 million deaths. That should be easy.
Invent a device to remotely disable every car in North America.
Wait one week.
Done.

Sibley

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6985 on: December 09, 2017, 07:23:15 PM »
I'm an optimist (realist). We're not beyond hope. Our current form of government may be, our current crop of politicians may be, but if Germany can come back from WWII, then the US can come back from the current shit show.
So what you're saying is that the US will be fine so long as it suffers aerial firebombing of major cities, invasion and 50 years of foreign military occupation and partition?

And this makes you an optimist?

You do realise that's the point? Germany recovered from even all that shit. Therefore the US, which hasn't had to deal with all that, will definitely recover from the current comparatively minor shit.

Thank you, shelivesthedream.

I don't think it'll be easy, or pretty. But if a country that was as destroyed as Germany was after WWII- physically, fiscally, culturally - can rebuild, then the US can fix itself. Somehow.

Just as long as we keep in mind that "we can fix this" doesn't mean "we will totally eradicate racism". Germany has made immense progress in this; far more than their neighbors who, it should be noted, were just as racist and anti-Semitic at the beginning of the 20th century. But there are still German racists, there are still Nazis. They are just so marginalized as to not be an issue.

We may also need to split the country in two for 50 years as part of the solution. Which, honestly, I'm fine with, as half the country seems peachy-keen on being ruled by Russia.

Racism is only one of our problems, though it is a doozy. And I think we might be lucky to only split into 2 for a while. Honestly, might be 3. Assuming that we're not forced to abandon whole areas due to climate changes. I'm certainly not moving to LA, ever.

SwordGuy

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6986 on: December 09, 2017, 07:31:39 PM »
Former gf was making 200k-300k/year selling medical devices to hospitals.  I never understood how she added more value than a website. 

Pretty women get into sales meetings with male businesspeople.     




Kyle Schuant

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6987 on: December 10, 2017, 12:53:14 AM »
Quote
You do realise that's the point? Germany recovered from even all that shit. Therefore the US, which hasn't had to deal with all that, will definitely recover from the current comparatively minor shit.
"All that shit" was the firebombing. The foreign military occupation and partition was a necessary part of the recovery. If they'd just made Germany surrender, then pulled out and walled them off, Germany would still be impoverished and in ruins. As it was, parts of East Germany were never rebuilt and were still ruins at the time of reunification.

If you want to compare the US to Germany, then what you're saying is that only foreign military occupation and partition can improve the US, because the US is too far gone to possibly help itself. Now, I'm inclined to agree with that, but I'm not sure that's the point an American really wants to make.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6988 on: December 10, 2017, 10:16:12 AM »
Quote
You do realise that's the point? Germany recovered from even all that shit. Therefore the US, which hasn't had to deal with all that, will definitely recover from the current comparatively minor shit.
"All that shit" was the firebombing. The foreign military occupation and partition was a necessary part of the recovery. If they'd just made Germany surrender, then pulled out and walled them off, Germany would still be impoverished and in ruins. As it was, parts of East Germany were never rebuilt and were still ruins at the time of reunification.

If you want to compare the US to Germany, then what you're saying is that only foreign military occupation and partition can improve the US, because the US is too far gone to possibly help itself. Now, I'm inclined to agree with that, but I'm not sure that's the point an American really wants to make.
What helped the recovery were the trade deals, the military occupation was only necessary to prevent wars and have a functioning administration which ... ok, maybe the US needs that, too.

BlueMR2

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6989 on: December 10, 2017, 01:12:18 PM »
Tis the season for the half year graduates to start posting nonsense on facebook.  "Woooo, just graduated" followed by "My student debt is going to kill me".  Immediately followed by pictures of the brand new (what I could consider mid level) car, upgraded iPhone, and large curved screen HD/4K TV and brand new videogame systems.  Argh.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6990 on: December 10, 2017, 02:35:02 PM »
Quote
You do realise that's the point? Germany recovered from even all that shit. Therefore the US, which hasn't had to deal with all that, will definitely recover from the current comparatively minor shit.
"All that shit" was the firebombing. The foreign military occupation and partition was a necessary part of the recovery. If they'd just made Germany surrender, then pulled out and walled them off, Germany would still be impoverished and in ruins. As it was, parts of East Germany were never rebuilt and were still ruins at the time of reunification.

If you want to compare the US to Germany, then what you're saying is that only foreign military occupation and partition can improve the US, because the US is too far gone to possibly help itself. Now, I'm inclined to agree with that, but I'm not sure that's the point an American really wants to make.

You're missing my point. The physical damage does not matter. Homes and roads and buildings and everything tangible can be rebuilt fairly easily. What isn't so easy to fix and rebuild are the intangibles - respect, worth, trust.

Germany was utterly destroyed after WWII, and the physical destruction was just the tip of the iceberg. Germans were spit on simply for being German. All of them were considered guilty BECAUSE they were German - regardless if they weren't even born until after the war. That sort of trauma and destruction, of an entire culture, is magnitudes harder to recover from. But they did it. Is Germany perfect? Absolutely not. No one is. But compared to where they were after WWII, it's a breathtaking achievement. Because it's no longer a virtual crime to simply be German.

It's so much harder to regain trust and respect once you've lost it, especially if you trampled on it first. Germany destroyed itself, the rest of the world just helped make the destruction visible. The US is starting down the path of destroying itself - because we're losing the principles that we founded this country on. Whether or not that damage is visible to the human eye is almost irrelevant.

I'm not interested in a debate about who's at fault or when it started - because we're ALL at fault. Any American is at fault, just like all Germans were after WWII. And the simple fact that Germany managed to rebuild itself, it's character and culture, is great hope for the US today. If Germany can come back from WWII, than maybe the US can stop our self-destruction. Maybe we can address our problems. Maybe we can figure out how to listen and understand and work together. Maybe we can figure out that we're all human beings and worthy of respect and compassion, whatever our differences. We have hope, and you can do an awful lot with hope.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6991 on: December 10, 2017, 02:44:12 PM »
Germany recovered the way it did because of massive USA investment through the Marshall Plan. None of which was altruistic - the USA wanted a bulwark against Soviet expansion and got it.

The equivalent for the USA would be China investing in its infrastructure.  I don't suppose anyone thinks that China would be doing that for altruistic reasons.

Just Joe

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6992 on: December 10, 2017, 08:11:52 PM »
Germany recovered the way it did because of massive USA investment through the Marshall Plan. None of which was altruistic - the USA wanted a bulwark against Soviet expansion and got it.

The equivalent for the USA would be China investing in its infrastructure.  I don't suppose anyone thinks that China would be doing that for altruistic reasons.

I figure with "Made in China" we've paid for the Chinese gov't to modernize and upgrade their entire nation. Plus they were able to learn about all the world's manufacturing processes at the same time. Moving the world's factories there brought China into the 21st century. I hope they'll always be peaceful neighbors to us collectively.

MgoSam

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6993 on: December 11, 2017, 11:48:49 AM »
Germany recovered the way it did because of massive USA investment through the Marshall Plan. None of which was altruistic - the USA wanted a bulwark against Soviet expansion and got it.

The equivalent for the USA would be China investing in its infrastructure.  I don't suppose anyone thinks that China would be doing that for altruistic reasons.

I figure with "Made in China" we've paid for the Chinese gov't to modernize and upgrade their entire nation. Plus they were able to learn about all the world's manufacturing processes at the same time. Moving the world's factories there brought China into the 21st century. I hope they'll always be peaceful neighbors to us collectively.

I do believe China's foreign policy has been far more benevolent than the US'. Then again China has only had significant influence for the past few decades (talking about current times not during the time of Marco Polo), but unless they change they tend to be more laid back when it comes to using their influence. They are happy to create economic ties but are silent when it comes to intervention. For instance they have been largely silent in Sudan while investing a lot of money in that country. Some would call this a failure in leadership while others will argue that they don't meddle in other country's affairs.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6994 on: December 11, 2017, 03:25:49 PM »
Germany recovered the way it did because of massive USA investment through the Marshall Plan. None of which was altruistic - the USA wanted a bulwark against Soviet expansion and got it.

The equivalent for the USA would be China investing in its infrastructure.  I don't suppose anyone thinks that China would be doing that for altruistic reasons.

I figure with "Made in China" we've paid for the Chinese gov't to modernize and upgrade their entire nation. Plus they were able to learn about all the world's manufacturing processes at the same time. Moving the world's factories there brought China into the 21st century. I hope they'll always be peaceful neighbors to us collectively.

I do believe China's foreign policy has been far more benevolent than the US'. Then again China has only had significant influence for the past few decades (talking about current times not during the time of Marco Polo), but unless they change they tend to be more laid back when it comes to using their influence. They are happy to create economic ties but are silent when it comes to intervention. For instance they have been largely silent in Sudan while investing a lot of money in that country. Some would call this a failure in leadership while others will argue that they don't meddle in other country's affairs.

I don't think that's going to last, just look at the recent case of Zimbabwe. That was a Chinese backed coup. I won't even mention building islands in international territory, because you know...that's totally a laid back thing to do.

I wouldn't say their foreign policy is more benevolent, I'd say it's more stealthy. For the last 20 years the US has been the world's hyperpower, they've been everywhere, especially militarily. What you don't see every night on the news is US aid organizations (governmental and non-governmental), US led international efforts in science, economics, technology, and medicine driving progress across the world. The US also is the main military power keeping dangerous organizations and states in check, and the sea lanes open from pirates. They are the world's police, even if people hate them for it their foreign policy is more benevolent than you may realize. But I reckon that will change in the coming decades, and I doubt China will fill that void, or that they will be so humble when some 3rd world country or government threatens their economic or political self-interest.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6995 on: December 11, 2017, 03:57:22 PM »
Germany recovered the way it did because of massive USA investment through the Marshall Plan. None of which was altruistic - the USA wanted a bulwark against Soviet expansion and got it.

The equivalent for the USA would be China investing in its infrastructure.  I don't suppose anyone thinks that China would be doing that for altruistic reasons.

I figure with "Made in China" we've paid for the Chinese gov't to modernize and upgrade their entire nation. Plus they were able to learn about all the world's manufacturing processes at the same time. Moving the world's factories there brought China into the 21st century. I hope they'll always be peaceful neighbors to us collectively.

I do believe China's foreign policy has been far more benevolent than the US'. Then again China has only had significant influence for the past few decades (talking about current times not during the time of Marco Polo), but unless they change they tend to be more laid back when it comes to using their influence. They are happy to create economic ties but are silent when it comes to intervention. For instance they have been largely silent in Sudan while investing a lot of money in that country. Some would call this a failure in leadership while others will argue that they don't meddle in other country's affairs.

I don't think that's going to last, just look at the recent case of Zimbabwe. That was a Chinese backed coup. I won't even mention building islands in international territory, because you know...that's totally a laid back thing to do.

I wouldn't say their foreign policy is more benevolent, I'd say it's more stealthy. For the last 20 years the US has been the world's hyperpower, they've been everywhere, especially militarily. What you don't see every night on the news is US aid organizations (governmental and non-governmental), US led international efforts in science, economics, technology, and medicine driving progress across the world. The US also is the main military power keeping dangerous organizations and states in check, and the sea lanes open from pirates. They are the world's police, even if people hate them for it their foreign policy is more benevolent than you may realize. But I reckon that will change in the coming decades, and I doubt China will fill that void, or that they will be so humble when some 3rd world country or government threatens their economic or political self-interest.

I've never heard Chinese foreign policy described as "humble" before. Discreet, at times, or even quiet or subtle... less so now that the economic isolationist policy has been reversed because they've got an economic presence. But a nation with the world's largest standing army is indeed less ostentatious in its foreign policy than might otherwise be expected.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6996 on: December 13, 2017, 07:26:49 AM »
On a Buy and Sell page.. that was one expensive snowboarding trip....

Title: Snowboard Equipment (2 complete sets / various items / almost new - used one time only- bought last season) (Price: various)

2 COMPLETE SETS (MEN/WOMEN) - I CAN SELL EACH ITEM OR ALL TOGETHER FOR CAD 990!
IT IS A GOOD DEAL - ALL EQUIPMENT IS ALMOST NEW AND HIGH PERFORMANCE (we used one time only at Blue Mountains and we bought last December). PRICES ARE BELOW MARKET.
SNOWBOARDS + BINDINGS (INSTALLED)
BURTON RIPCORD 3D 54 AND BINDINGS K2
PRICE 320 + tax / SELLING FOR 250
SIMS PRISTINE 51 AND BINDINGS K2
PRICE 385 + tax  / SELLING FOR 290
GOGGLES
SKY PLATON 2 LENS - DAY AND NIGHT
PRICE 109 + tax/ SELLING FOR 70
SKY ACER 2 LENS - DAY AND NIGHT
PRICE 169 + tax / SELLING FOR 110
BOOTS
BURTON (WOMEN SIZE 9)
PRICE 249 + tax / SELLING FOR 175
K2 BLACK (MEN SIZE 10.5)
PRICE 149 + tax / SELLING FOR 100
HELMETS
NINE.10
PRICE 149 + tax / SELLING FOR 85
RIVAL PRO
PRICE 159 + tax / SELLING FOR 90


Just Joe

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6997 on: December 13, 2017, 04:26:56 PM »
They ate more money than I spent on my mtn bike, kayak and some of my camping gear.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6998 on: December 16, 2017, 02:24:46 PM »
Finally got a “as seen on FB” moment. Former classmate posted a photo of the new Tesla sedan she took delivery of. Granted, she works there, so perhaps there is an employee discount? Someone in the thread asked why not a model 3 instead, but everyone else was very congratulatory.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #6999 on: December 18, 2017, 08:16:32 AM »
This time of year - just ultimate consumerism posts coming out

"Looking to hire a gift wrapper, anyone have a child that would like to earn some cash to wrap some gifts for me???"

Buys a bunch of gifts - hires someone to come wrap them