Overheard on Facebook

[Metalcat]

We have a very un-mustachian 4wd camper van. People definitely get out of the way. It has to be driven more like a semi than a car, so I get passed a lot, but yeah, most small cars just try to stay out of the way. Still have problems with the occasional 20-something punk in a jacked up pickup or sporty German car (Audi anyone?), but only til they pass me. At intersections or on the freeway, people typically defer to me when I’m in that beast.

What does it mean that cars "get out of the way??"

Especially if you are going slow, I'm having a hard time picturing what this looks like.

I've driven a number of moving trucks and never witnessed people actively getting out of my way, although I have witnessed people courteously and patiently giving me space to maneuver my huge truck, usually with a polite hand wave, likely because they know people in rental moving trucks have no idea what they're doing and could be dangerous.

But I can't picture what people "getting out of the way" really looks like.

[Dave1442397]

We have a very un-mustachian 4wd camper van. People definitely get out of the way. It has to be driven more like a semi than a car, so I get passed a lot, but yeah, most small cars just try to stay out of the way. Still have problems with the occasional 20-something punk in a jacked up pickup or sporty German car (Audi anyone?), but only til they pass me. At intersections or on the freeway, people typically defer to me when I’m in that beast.

What does it mean that cars "get out of the way??"
 I can't picture what people "getting out of the way" really looks like.

That's because you live in the US, where left lane camping is a thing, and no one ever gets out of your way.

Try driving on a derestricted Autobahn in Germany. If you're in the left lane doing 100mph and a car is coming up behind you doing 200, you better get the hell out of the way!

I never hold people up in the left lane as long as I'm not just sitting in a line of traffic. If someone's going faster than me, then I move over and let them go. Not that I'd be sitting in the left lane anyway. I only move left to pass people and then get back over.

[Sibley]

We have a very un-mustachian 4wd camper van. People definitely get out of the way. It has to be driven more like a semi than a car, so I get passed a lot, but yeah, most small cars just try to stay out of the way. Still have problems with the occasional 20-something punk in a jacked up pickup or sporty German car (Audi anyone?), but only til they pass me. At intersections or on the freeway, people typically defer to me when I’m in that beast.

What does it mean that cars "get out of the way??"

Especially if you are going slow, I'm having a hard time picturing what this looks like.

I've driven a number of moving trucks and never witnessed people actively getting out of my way, although I have witnessed people courteously and patiently giving me space to maneuver my huge truck, usually with a polite hand wave, likely because they know people in rental moving trucks have no idea what they're doing and could be dangerous.

But I can't picture what people "getting out of the way" really looks like.

For the camper vans, in my experience its a mix of get out of the way and get past them, because they are either slow or going too fast and thus are dangerous. RVs, etc typically don't require special training or licensing to drive yet are functionally semitrucks. And double risk if they're driven by a senior citizen who is likely to have delayed response times.

Getting out of the way looks like - changing lanes to put more distance between your vehicle and the other one, passing quickly, hanging back until there's enough space in between you and the car in front of you so you don't have to linger next to the truck, moving over a lane when the other vehicle is merging onto the highway.

[Metalcat]

We have a very un-mustachian 4wd camper van. People definitely get out of the way. It has to be driven more like a semi than a car, so I get passed a lot, but yeah, most small cars just try to stay out of the way. Still have problems with the occasional 20-something punk in a jacked up pickup or sporty German car (Audi anyone?), but only til they pass me. At intersections or on the freeway, people typically defer to me when I’m in that beast.

What does it mean that cars "get out of the way??"

Especially if you are going slow, I'm having a hard time picturing what this looks like.

I've driven a number of moving trucks and never witnessed people actively getting out of my way, although I have witnessed people courteously and patiently giving me space to maneuver my huge truck, usually with a polite hand wave, likely because they know people in rental moving trucks have no idea what they're doing and could be dangerous.

But I can't picture what people "getting out of the way" really looks like.

For the camper vans, in my experience its a mix of get out of the way and get past them, because they are either slow or going too fast and thus are dangerous. RVs, etc typically don't require special training or licensing to drive yet are functionally semitrucks. And double risk if they're driven by a senior citizen who is likely to have delayed response times.

Getting out of the way looks like - changing lanes to put more distance between your vehicle and the other one, passing quickly, hanging back until there's enough space in between you and the car in front of you so you don't have to linger next to the truck, moving over a lane when the other vehicle is merging onto the highway.

So just courteous and considerate driving?

[Sibley]

We have a very un-mustachian 4wd camper van. People definitely get out of the way. It has to be driven more like a semi than a car, so I get passed a lot, but yeah, most small cars just try to stay out of the way. Still have problems with the occasional 20-something punk in a jacked up pickup or sporty German car (Audi anyone?), but only til they pass me. At intersections or on the freeway, people typically defer to me when I’m in that beast.

What does it mean that cars "get out of the way??"

Especially if you are going slow, I'm having a hard time picturing what this looks like.

I've driven a number of moving trucks and never witnessed people actively getting out of my way, although I have witnessed people courteously and patiently giving me space to maneuver my huge truck, usually with a polite hand wave, likely because they know people in rental moving trucks have no idea what they're doing and could be dangerous.

But I can't picture what people "getting out of the way" really looks like.

For the camper vans, in my experience its a mix of get out of the way and get past them, because they are either slow or going too fast and thus are dangerous. RVs, etc typically don't require special training or licensing to drive yet are functionally semitrucks. And double risk if they're driven by a senior citizen who is likely to have delayed response times.

Getting out of the way looks like - changing lanes to put more distance between your vehicle and the other one, passing quickly, hanging back until there's enough space in between you and the car in front of you so you don't have to linger next to the truck, moving over a lane when the other vehicle is merging onto the highway.

So just courteous and considerate driving?

That is the best case scenario. Depending on the location, individuals, situation, etc, add swearing, rude hand gestures, honking the horn, tailgating, aggressively changing lanes, cutting them off, etc. Yes, some of this is counter productive. It happens.

[BlueHouse]

A co-worker's husband bought a similar monster-size truck.  Her experience as a passenger in it:  "everyone gets out of your way." 
I thought that was telling.

Do they though?
...
Is it really a thing or is she just imagining some sense of power that isn't real??? I'm genuinely curious.

Yeah.  I drove yesterday and a big ass truck was driving "on the line" next to me.  I moved away.  Then I got to the store parking lot and searched for parking spaces.  The one available was smushed in with a big ass truck over the line so I really would risk getting hit by their car door (because I know they were a-holes, just based on truck).  So I parked way further back, then donkey-kicked their truck door when I walked by. 

...
okay, I didn't do that last part in real life, but I really wanted to. 

[RetiredAt63]

Big trucks are the moose of the vehicle world.

[Metalcat]

Big trucks are the moose of the vehicle world.

I would 100% get out of the way of a moose, but I drive around big trucks all the time and I just drive normally??? Like, they're just vehicles on the road that I have a harder time seeing around.

[RetiredAt63]

Big trucks are the moose of the vehicle world.

I would 100% get out of the way of a moose, but I drive around big trucks all the time and I just drive normally??? Like, they're just vehicles on the road that I have a harder time seeing around.

In the sense that we are very careful driving around them?  Because they are erratic and entitled quite often?  And can easily do lots of damage without much damage to themselves?  And you just hope they actually saw your vehicle?

I'm not taking semis, I'm thinking more like a Ford 350.

[ixtap]

Guy posted a memory from 2021 about how the hard work paid off and he bought a truck. And captioned it with what he plans to trade it in for next month...

[Just Joe]

Wow, the money people casually spend on depreciating assets!

I mean, I get the fascination with "toys". We have several vehicles and a camper but we're not on any upgrade treadmill. We buy used and enjoy that thing. We also avoid the upgrade treadmill that some folks get stuck on.

[Dave1442397]

Wow, the money people casually spend on depreciating assets!

I mean, I get the fascination with "toys". We have several vehicles and a camper but we're not on any upgrade treadmill. We buy used and enjoy that thing. We also avoid the upgrade treadmill that some folks get stuck on.

I left my 2011 car in to get new tires mounted, and had asked them to check brake fluid, trans fluid, diff fluid, and change/service as necessary, plus an oil change. They called me earlier and said all it needs is the oil change and an alignment with the new tires. Color me happy!

I have new engine air filters and cabin air filter arriving tomorrow, so I'll replace those over the weekend. That should do it for another year, as long as I'm still working from home.

[theninthwall]

Guy posted a memory from 2021 about how the hard work paid off and he bought a truck. And captioned it with what he plans to trade it in for next month...

It's wild how people see a car payment as a cost of living like an electricity bill, not the fact they are purchasing an $80,000 object every few years.

[Metalcat]

Guy posted a memory from 2021 about how the hard work paid off and he bought a truck. And captioned it with what he plans to trade it in for next month...

It's wild how people see a car payment as a cost of living like an electricity bill, not the fact they are purchasing an $80,000 object every few years.

Blows my mind every time. I only ever had a car payment once because I was tackling higher interest debt at the time so I financed my used Corolla because the math made sense despite feeling very wrong. Plus the dealership was willing to throw in winter tires if I financed.

So I came out ahead math-wise. I ended up paying it off once the other debt was gone, but still, it felt so wrong to voluntarily have a car payment.

[ixtap]

Guy posted a memory from 2021 about how the hard work paid off and he bought a truck. And captioned it with what he plans to trade it in for next month...

It's wild how people see a car payment as a cost of living like an electricity bill, not the fact they are purchasing an $80,000 object every few years.

Blows my mind every time. I only ever had a car payment once because I was tackling higher interest debt at the time so I financed my used Corolla because the math made sense despite feeling very wrong. Plus the dealership was willing to throw in winter tires if I financed.

So I came out ahead math-wise. I ended up paying it off once the other debt was gone, but still, it felt so wrong to voluntarily have a car payment.

I don't mind using debt, I just don't understand needing to upgrade your car every few years. I love that period after the car is paid off but before you need a new one. I love knowing all the quirks about my car. I hate trying to choose a replacement and dealing with people I don't trust. I do not at all understand going through that hassle when you have a perfectly good vehicle, much less choosing to do it so frequently!

[SwordGuy]

I don't mind using debt, I just don't understand needing to upgrade your car every few years. I love that period after the car is paid off but before you need a new one. I love knowing all the quirks about my car. I hate trying to choose a replacement and dealing with people I don't trust. I do not at all understand going through that hassle when you have a perfectly good vehicle, much less choosing to do it so frequently!

I'm right there with you!

[Metalcat]

Guy posted a memory from 2021 about how the hard work paid off and he bought a truck. And captioned it with what he plans to trade it in for next month...

It's wild how people see a car payment as a cost of living like an electricity bill, not the fact they are purchasing an $80,000 object every few years.

Blows my mind every time. I only ever had a car payment once because I was tackling higher interest debt at the time so I financed my used Corolla because the math made sense despite feeling very wrong. Plus the dealership was willing to throw in winter tires if I financed.

So I came out ahead math-wise. I ended up paying it off once the other debt was gone, but still, it felt so wrong to voluntarily have a car payment.

I don't mind using debt, I just don't understand needing to upgrade your car every few years. I love that period after the car is paid off but before you need a new one. I love knowing all the quirks about my car. I hate trying to choose a replacement and dealing with people I don't trust. I do not at all understand going through that hassle when you have a perfectly good vehicle, much less choosing to do it so frequently!

Oh, I don't actually mind using debt either, it just felt so "ick" to specifically have a car payment, so I find it baffling that so many people conceptualize it as totally normal.

Like, sure, I'll get a car payment if it makes sense, but it has to be exceptional circumstances for that to make sense for me. It *only* made sense because during a brief period in life I absolutely needed to replace my car, and I had significant higher interest debt.

A car payment was only beneficial for me because my finances weren't great right out of grad school.

So the car payment itself was okay, but I was not happy about the circumstances that made a car payment beneficial. It felt embarrassing. Like, omg, I can't even justify spending 12K cash on a used Corolla, it's better put towards my debt.

*sad face*

[Just Joe]

Guy posted a memory from 2021 about how the hard work paid off and he bought a truck. And captioned it with what he plans to trade it in for next month...

It's wild how people see a car payment as a cost of living like an electricity bill, not the fact they are purchasing an $80,000 object every few years.

Blows my mind every time. I only ever had a car payment once because I was tackling higher interest debt at the time so I financed my used Corolla because the math made sense despite feeling very wrong. Plus the dealership was willing to throw in winter tires if I financed.

So I came out ahead math-wise. I ended up paying it off once the other debt was gone, but still, it felt so wrong to voluntarily have a car payment.

I don't mind using debt, I just don't understand needing to upgrade your car every few years. I love that period after the car is paid off but before you need a new one. I love knowing all the quirks about my car. I hate trying to choose a replacement and dealing with people I don't trust. I do not at all understand going through that hassle when you have a perfectly good vehicle, much less choosing to do it so frequently!

Quasi-shopping for a car right now. Not in a rush. Learning the ropes using online apps like GarGurus and CarFax or Edmunds. I find the listed price to barely be useful b/c there may be another $1500 to $2500 worth of fees on top of the listed price. So, I'm asking for the price out the door, I have my own money and no trade-in. Easy to get decision overload and maybe that is the point. Well, anyhow I know what I want now. Won't actually buy something for months yet.

TLDR: advertised price ought to be the out the door price. Discounts may be available if you trade in or finance with the dealer. 

[Sugaree]

Guy posted a memory from 2021 about how the hard work paid off and he bought a truck. And captioned it with what he plans to trade it in for next month...

It's wild how people see a car payment as a cost of living like an electricity bill, not the fact they are purchasing an $80,000 object every few years.

Blows my mind every time. I only ever had a car payment once because I was tackling higher interest debt at the time so I financed my used Corolla because the math made sense despite feeling very wrong. Plus the dealership was willing to throw in winter tires if I financed.

So I came out ahead math-wise. I ended up paying it off once the other debt was gone, but still, it felt so wrong to voluntarily have a car payment.

I don't mind using debt, I just don't understand needing to upgrade your car every few years. I love that period after the car is paid off but before you need a new one. I love knowing all the quirks about my car. I hate trying to choose a replacement and dealing with people I don't trust. I do not at all understand going through that hassle when you have a perfectly good vehicle, much less choosing to do it so frequently!

Quasi-shopping for a car right now. Not in a rush. Learning the ropes using online apps like GarGurus and CarFax or Edmunds. I find the listed price to barely be useful b/c there may be another $1500 to $2500 worth of fees on top of the listed price. So, I'm asking for the price out the door, I have my own money and no trade-in. Easy to get decision overload and maybe that is the point. Well, anyhow I know what I want now. Won't actually buy something for months yet.

TLDR: advertised price ought to be the out the door price. Discounts may be available if you trade in or finance with the dealer.

This was infuriating to me when I was shopping for my last car (okay, two cars ago...the first one was totaled in an accident and I bought another one exactly like it...I'm a big believer in buying exactly what I want and driving it until the wheels fall off).  I found one a couple of states over.  The price was good enough to justify driving a couple of hours, but not great.  I emailed the dealership and they came back with a price that was not only significantly higher than advertised, but also higher than any of the closer options.  The advertised price was what you would get if you applied every single available discount.  So, if you were a new-grad, veteran, LEO/firefighter, trading in another Jeep, and simultaneously a first-time Jeep owner then that was the price.  The local dealer that my dad sometimes drives for even called about it and in his words "that guy's crazy." 

For what it's worth, I've had decent dealings with CarMax even though they to tend to be a little higher priced.  They happened to have exactly what I wanted (the replacement for the totaled one), could deliver it to the closest store, and the sales person was easy to work with, didn't push financing, and was very up front about the OTD price.  That last part could have been because I was clear up front that I was working with an insurance settlement and would have a cashier's check when I picked it up.  I also like AutoTempest for searching the different sources.

[PMG]

I’m not a car person. But I’ll chime in on Carmax. We’ve bought two cars there and had great experience each time. The advertised price is the price. They may offer you an extended warranty thru Carmax but that is the only add on we were offered and they offered twice iirc then dropped it. The sales folks are paid hourly, not commission.

The first time we had been looking for weeks at local dealerships and not finding what we wanted and just frustrated by the experience and how sales folks deferred to my spouse when I was the one buying. We woke up on a Sunday morning, decided we needed to buy a car that day. Drove to the nearest Carmax, two hours away. On the way there I looked thru stock on my phone, found 3 to test drive, read their vehicle history etc. We test drove two. Bought the second one. Toyota, Yaris 2018 bought in 2019. Financed thru Carmax. In and out in about 1.5 hours total. (Our old car, a 2001 Honda CRV passed peacefully and refused to start two days later.)

The second time we knew what we wanted, Honda CRV, 2018 bought in 2022. Found it at a Carmax states away, paid a fee to have it shipped nearby, made and appointment to test drive it. Showed up with our 6 week old infant, drove it a bit. The shipping fee was applied to our down payment when we bought it. Brought financing thru my bank which offered a better rate. This took longer because both my spouse and I were on the title and we were juggling the infant but, also a good experience.

Haven’t had issues with either car. Wait, I take that back. The Honda was due for some routine maintenance that was oddly specific to Honda and Carmax missed it. We might have noticed before buying if we hadn’t been juggling the infant. I thought that was pretty sketchy of them not to be up on that. They offered to do it free of charge, but we opted to take it to a Honda dealer and get them to do it and give it a look over while we were still in the return window to see if anything else was missed. Other than that we’ve had nothing but routine maintenance on both cars. Both cars were squeaky clean when we got them and felt like brand new to us.

All that to say, I’m a big fan of Carmax. I am confident I being treated well and buying a reliable used vehicle without the dealership bs or the car knowledge needed for a private sale. I’ve probably talked up Carmax here before, but it really was a good experience. I felt like we got a good price on the Toyota in 2019. Buying the Honda in 2022 did not feel like a good price but there were no good prices to be had at that time.

[Just Joe]

This was infuriating to me when I was shopping for my last car (okay, two cars ago...the first one was totaled in an accident and I bought another one exactly like it...I'm a big believer in buying exactly what I want and driving it until the wheels fall off).  I found one a couple of states over.  The price was good enough to justify driving a couple of hours, but not great.  I emailed the dealership and they came back with a price that was not only significantly higher than advertised, but also higher than any of the closer options.  The advertised price was what you would get if you applied every single available discount.  So, if you were a new-grad, veteran, LEO/firefighter, trading in another Jeep, and simultaneously a first-time Jeep owner then that was the price.  The local dealer that my dad sometimes drives for even called about it and in his words "that guy's crazy." 

For what it's worth, I've had decent dealings with CarMax even though they to tend to be a little higher priced.  They happened to have exactly what I wanted (the replacement for the totaled one), could deliver it to the closest store, and the sales person was easy to work with, didn't push financing, and was very up front about the OTD price.  That last part could have been because I was clear up front that I was working with an insurance settlement and would have a cashier's check when I picked it up.  I also like AutoTempest for searching the different sources.

Same. same. same.

Edited to add: of course, a person could go to the dealer selling the cars and just pay their full advertised price. No haggling. Functionally the same as CarMax and price competitive if the car was as clean as CarMax.

What I don't want to do is land at the dealer and waste hours of my time or discover after the fact that the car is not good. I'm trying to buy something very low miles to avoid those surprises.

I hate buying and selling cars. Hate it. And I'm a gearhead.

[Sanitary Stache]

A prominent community member, volunteer, and recreation role model posts tonFB regularly and the posts always have some element of spending money about them. Never a post about a free activity. They are always doing things that could be free. Hiking a mountain or kayaking or riding a bike, but the list is always, “buy a ticket to this running event” or “just hiked a mountain and then spent money on these specific items from this restaurant.” Or “just did this event with these people and then I leased a car”.

The latest has been posts in support of buying $5,000 bicycles. An e-mountain bike a few weeks ago and now a gravel road bike. No mention of dropping down to one car in order to find these bike purchases.

I saw this person at a party recently. They had just bought a house. The line they were peddling was “a person can’t get ahead these days”. In addition to buying the house they had bought a few thousand dollars in fancy power tools on credit. I was standing with another financially responsible couple and we all got awkward pretty quick.


Bankruptcy was what this person shared on FB pre-Covid and it looks like they want to go right back there.


I want to share the MMM blog with this person. I feel like they would resonate with the early articles, but I am also sure that they would dismiss the idea of ever being free of consumer debt.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

A prominent community member, volunteer, and recreation role model posts tonFB regularly and the posts always have some element of spending money about them. Never a post about a free activity. They are always doing things that could be free. Hiking a mountain or kayaking or riding a bike, but the list is always, “buy a ticket to this running event” or “just hiked a mountain and then spent money on these specific items from this restaurant.” Or “just did this event with these people and then I leased a car”.

The latest has been posts in support of buying $5,000 bicycles. An e-mountain bike a few weeks ago and now a gravel road bike. No mention of dropping down to one car in order to find these bike purchases.

I saw this person at a party recently. They had just bought a house. The line they were peddling was “a person can’t get ahead these days”. In addition to buying the house they had bought a few thousand dollars in fancy power tools on credit. I was standing with another financially responsible couple and we all got awkward pretty quick.


Bankruptcy was what this person shared on FB pre-Covid and it looks like they want to go right back there.


I want to share the MMM blog with this person. I feel like they would resonate with the early articles, but I am also sure that they would dismiss the idea of ever being free of consumer debt.

(To the tune of "Back to Black" by Amy Winehouse)

You only shared your debt,
I had a heart attack,
You go back to red
But I live in the black...

[Just Joe]

What is there to do in life but spend-spend-spend?

[Alfred J Quack]

Blows my mind every time. I only ever had a car payment once because I was tackling higher interest debt at the time so I financed my used Corolla because the math made sense despite feeling very wrong. Plus the dealership was willing to throw in winter tires if I financed.

Life isn't all softdrinks and mango's, I had a new car with accompanying car payment. It was a five year loan at 6% because the dealership wanted 8%. The bank also allowed early payment without extra cost. Since I wanted to buy a house I payed the 10K loan off in 7 months - growing a mustache before knowing about it :D

Couple of years back we swapped our perfectly good Hyundai for a Nissan Leaf (full electric) because the investment would've paid itself back in 3 years. It's nice when an investment (in this case in lowering emissions) is also effective in cutting cost.

[Metalcat]

Blows my mind every time. I only ever had a car payment once because I was tackling higher interest debt at the time so I financed my used Corolla because the math made sense despite feeling very wrong. Plus the dealership was willing to throw in winter tires if I financed.

Life isn't all softdrinks and mango's, I had a new car with accompanying car payment. It was a five year loan at 6% because the dealership wanted 8%. The bank also allowed early payment without extra cost. Since I wanted to buy a house I payed the 10K loan off in 7 months - growing a mustache before knowing about it :D

Couple of years back we swapped our perfectly good Hyundai for a Nissan Leaf (full electric) because the investment would've paid itself back in 3 years. It's nice when an investment (in this case in lowering emissions) is also effective in cutting cost.

I don't understand this reply in the context of my previous replies.

My point wasn't to never get a car loan, my point was that I don't understand how people are so cavalier about getting a car loan and perceive it as a default state.

People treat a car loan the same way they conceptualize rent or a mortgage payment, that it's a given. I've heard countless people say things like "I'm so excited that my payments will be up on my car next year, it's time to trade it in and get a new one! I can't wait!"

The last time someone said this to me I was driving a 13 year old Buick Century and I was actually admiring her much newer Honda Civic, and here she is telling me how eager she is to trade it in because it's "old" and she "needs something new."

This was a newly divorced, single mother, who was also complaining about having to rent a partial-basement townhouse because she couldn't afford to buy after the divorce.

And yet to her, it was so much a default to have a car payment that she was getting all excited for the fact that she could justify buying a whole new, unnecessary car instead of freeing up that payment and driving her perfectly nice Civic for another decade.

I've heard this shit for so many years, it blows my mind.

I've financed a car, but only because it was truly the next option for me at the time. I would never do it by default, and I would never see coming to the end of my payments as a prompt that it's time to go buy a new car and get a new payment.

This kind of thinking is so pervasive that a financial advisor I know brags endlessly about paying off his car and continuing to drive it and he says "this Subaru LITERALLY makes me money every month because I don't have a car payment."

Yes, he's an idiot, but his framing really resonates with his clients. They see a car payment as so normal, so necessary, that having a car, but not having a payment legit feels like making money every month.

Not sure what any of that has to do with soft drinks and mangos though...but hopefully my point is clearer now.

[Siebrie]

I'm still so happy that about 10 years ago Belgium passed a law that allowed for loans to be repaid early. Before that, the banks/loan institutions could block early repayment. They can still charge a 3-month-interest charge on the bit you repay early, but that's minor compared to paying the full interest for the full period.

[partgypsy]

I am just not a car person. I didn't drive for many many years, only got my own car when separating from now ex. So yeah, I now LIKE having a car. But as long as it is running and considered safe, don't really think much about it.

[Fomerly known as something]

I’m not a car person but my next car years from now I will pay more attention to handling but still keeping the ability to go “off road light” which may mean a more expensive one.  I drive a lot of twisty CA roads.  My work car is a Dodge Charger, it is much more fun to drive on said roads than my Jeep Renegade.