Overheard on Facebook

[AlanStache]

...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXvJqiyiMqQ

1000% relevant.

300$?!?!?!?  With open containers, that might be happening!  Bet you could get a clown for 100$ too. That is value pricing compared to Vegas. 

[flamingo25]

Someone on my local mom's FB group asked who was interested in joining a healthy slow cooker recipe group. I'm about to have a baby and would love some easy recipes so I said sure, sign me up. Turns out it's just a shill for MLM beachbody stuff and not that many recipes. Deceptive and disappointing.

[Kashmani]

I have a former co-worker I'm connected with on Facebook.  This guy works in finance and is married to a doctor, so they do well on the income front.  Here's a few of his ongoing Facebook sagas:

1.  He decides to invest in three investment properties within 6 months in Reno.  His thesis is that the new Tesla factory will cause prices to skyrocket there.  He immediately takes out mortgages that cost as much as he will earn in rent.  (I don't know the exact financial details, I actually assume he'll do okay here but he's taking on a lot of risk).
2.  While in the middle of this process, he up and decides to sell his house and move to a more expensive city.  Old house is sized fine for his family, but is in a hilly area, and under the SFO flightline.  He's been in the house a while, so given the SF housing market, he's surely done well.  However, the new house is at least 20-30% more expensive, and is in a city built on a landfill that is slowly sinking into the SF bay.  I read the disclosures on new homes being built there a few years back, and they warn that these home might sink as much as 4ft over the next 50 years.
3.  Guy has no liquidity to his name during this process.  He literally posted a screenshot of his bank accounts showing less than $1 in combined liquidity for his family.  This was ~1 week ago.
4.  Just today he posts that his Volvo XC60 is getting too small for his family (wife and one kid), and is looking for recommendations between SUV's like the Honda Pilot, Escalade or Audi Q7.

I know he's not the Dr. in this situation, but I can tell you that in my experience, doctors are some of the worst money managers (there are exceptions) of any profession I've had the privilege of working with.

Out of curiosity, how do lawyers compare? I am one, and I am always surprised when I hear that professionals are such bad money managers. It is usually much easier to keep it than to earn it.

[justajane]

I have a former co-worker I'm connected with on Facebook.  This guy works in finance and is married to a doctor, so they do well on the income front.  Here's a few of his ongoing Facebook sagas:

1.  He decides to invest in three investment properties within 6 months in Reno.  His thesis is that the new Tesla factory will cause prices to skyrocket there.  He immediately takes out mortgages that cost as much as he will earn in rent.  (I don't know the exact financial details, I actually assume he'll do okay here but he's taking on a lot of risk).
2.  While in the middle of this process, he up and decides to sell his house and move to a more expensive city.  Old house is sized fine for his family, but is in a hilly area, and under the SFO flightline.  He's been in the house a while, so given the SF housing market, he's surely done well.  However, the new house is at least 20-30% more expensive, and is in a city built on a landfill that is slowly sinking into the SF bay.  I read the disclosures on new homes being built there a few years back, and they warn that these home might sink as much as 4ft over the next 50 years.
3.  Guy has no liquidity to his name during this process.  He literally posted a screenshot of his bank accounts showing less than $1 in combined liquidity for his family.  This was ~1 week ago.
4.  Just today he posts that his Volvo XC60 is getting too small for his family (wife and one kid), and is looking for recommendations between SUV's like the Honda Pilot, Escalade or Audi Q7.

I know he's not the Dr. in this situation, but I can tell you that in my experience, doctors are some of the worst money managers (there are exceptions) of any profession I've had the privilege of working with.

Out of curiosity, how do lawyers compare? I am one, and I am always surprised when I hear that professionals are such bad money managers. It is usually much easier to keep it than to earn it.

A lot of people actually don't agree that's it is easier to keep it than to earn more because that actually requires discipline and self-control. They'd rather spend their time trying to earn more so that they don't have to give up their precious luxuries, which they likely feel like they "need" because they are on the employment treadmill. And on and on it goes. Of course, the ideal is to keep it and earn more.

[MgoSam]

I have a former co-worker I'm connected with on Facebook.  This guy works in finance and is married to a doctor, so they do well on the income front.  Here's a few of his ongoing Facebook sagas:

1.  He decides to invest in three investment properties within 6 months in Reno.  His thesis is that the new Tesla factory will cause prices to skyrocket there.  He immediately takes out mortgages that cost as much as he will earn in rent.  (I don't know the exact financial details, I actually assume he'll do okay here but he's taking on a lot of risk).
2.  While in the middle of this process, he up and decides to sell his house and move to a more expensive city.  Old house is sized fine for his family, but is in a hilly area, and under the SFO flightline.  He's been in the house a while, so given the SF housing market, he's surely done well.  However, the new house is at least 20-30% more expensive, and is in a city built on a landfill that is slowly sinking into the SF bay.  I read the disclosures on new homes being built there a few years back, and they warn that these home might sink as much as 4ft over the next 50 years.
3.  Guy has no liquidity to his name during this process.  He literally posted a screenshot of his bank accounts showing less than $1 in combined liquidity for his family.  This was ~1 week ago.
4.  Just today he posts that his Volvo XC60 is getting too small for his family (wife and one kid), and is looking for recommendations between SUV's like the Honda Pilot, Escalade or Audi Q7.

I know he's not the Dr. in this situation, but I can tell you that in my experience, doctors are some of the worst money managers (there are exceptions) of any profession I've had the privilege of working with.

Out of curiosity, how do lawyers compare? I am one, and I am always surprised when I hear that professionals are such bad money managers. It is usually much easier to keep it than to earn it.

A lot of people actually don't agree that's it is easier to keep it than to earn more because that actually requires discipline and self-control. They'd rather spend their time trying to earn more so that they don't have to give up their precious luxuries, which they likely feel like they "need" because they are on the employment treadmill. And on and on it goes. Of course, the ideal is to keep it and earn more.

Another thing about doctors and lawyers is that they had to spend a lot of time and money in school and residency (or being at the bottom of their law firm) before making the big bucks, so for some that can encourage them to spend now that they have it. Also, I suspect that some of the same impulses that lead people to high consumption are also what lead them towards these fields.

[mm1970]

Someone on my local mom's FB group asked who was interested in joining a healthy slow cooker recipe group. I'm about to have a baby and would love some easy recipes so I said sure, sign me up. Turns out it's just a shill for MLM beachbody stuff and not that many recipes. Deceptive and disappointing.

That's too bad.  I'm a fan of beachbody, but I've been invited to groups where the purpose of the group was not what they said.  And that sucks.  "Join my group!!"  Turns out they are trying to sell me makeup.  Um, no thanks!

[jinga nation]

I have a former co-worker I'm connected with on Facebook.  This guy works in finance and is married to a doctor, so they do well on the income front.  Here's a few of his ongoing Facebook sagas:

1.  He decides to invest in three investment properties within 6 months in Reno.  His thesis is that the new Tesla factory will cause prices to skyrocket there.  He immediately takes out mortgages that cost as much as he will earn in rent.  (I don't know the exact financial details, I actually assume he'll do okay here but he's taking on a lot of risk).
2.  While in the middle of this process, he up and decides to sell his house and move to a more expensive city.  Old house is sized fine for his family, but is in a hilly area, and under the SFO flightline.  He's been in the house a while, so given the SF housing market, he's surely done well.  However, the new house is at least 20-30% more expensive, and is in a city built on a landfill that is slowly sinking into the SF bay.  I read the disclosures on new homes being built there a few years back, and they warn that these home might sink as much as 4ft over the next 50 years.
3.  Guy has no liquidity to his name during this process.  He literally posted a screenshot of his bank accounts showing less than $1 in combined liquidity for his family.  This was ~1 week ago.
4.  Just today he posts that his Volvo XC60 is getting too small for his family (wife and one kid), and is looking for recommendations between SUV's like the Honda Pilot, Escalade or Audi Q7.

I know he's not the Dr. in this situation, but I can tell you that in my experience, doctors are some of the worst money managers (there are exceptions) of any profession I've had the privilege of working with.

Out of curiosity, how do lawyers compare? I am one, and I am always surprised when I hear that professionals are such bad money managers. It is usually much easier to keep it than to earn it.

A lot of people actually don't agree that's it is easier to keep it than to earn more because that actually requires discipline and self-control. They'd rather spend their time trying to earn more so that they don't have to give up their precious luxuries, which they likely feel like they "need" because they are on the employment treadmill. And on and on it goes. Of course, the ideal is to keep it and earn more.

Another thing about doctors and lawyers is that they had to spend a lot of time and money in school and residency (or being at the bottom of their law firm) before making the big bucks, so for some that can encourage them to spend now that they have it. Also, I suspect that some of the same impulses that lead people to high consumption are also what lead them towards these fields.

The medical and law professions are huge in 'Keeping up with the Jones'". I know that since I have family members in these fields who resist the urge to comply. You come out of medical school, you are expected to drive a luxury vehicle, wear nice clothes, watches, etc. Meanwhile the savvy one is trying to save up to start a solo practice or buy into a group. Because getting business loans when you have medical school loans comes with high interest rates.

[eljefe-speaks]

I see this with retired Brits who travel the world. They hate the idea of all immigrants here, but they expect that they should be welcomed the world over.

Funny, for a while I thought that this was just how everyone viewed us Americans. But I see that sillyness expands beyond our national boundaries.

http://www.theweathernetwork.com/news/articles/tourists-disrupt-turtle-nesting-grounds-in-costa-rica/57292/

No one is going to be like "those damn Virginians"

Try being from Ohio! Universally hated as travelers in the US. Well, the South anyway.

[MgoSam]

I have a former co-worker I'm connected with on Facebook.  This guy works in finance and is married to a doctor, so they do well on the income front.  Here's a few of his ongoing Facebook sagas:

1.  He decides to invest in three investment properties within 6 months in Reno.  His thesis is that the new Tesla factory will cause prices to skyrocket there.  He immediately takes out mortgages that cost as much as he will earn in rent.  (I don't know the exact financial details, I actually assume he'll do okay here but he's taking on a lot of risk).
2.  While in the middle of this process, he up and decides to sell his house and move to a more expensive city.  Old house is sized fine for his family, but is in a hilly area, and under the SFO flightline.  He's been in the house a while, so given the SF housing market, he's surely done well.  However, the new house is at least 20-30% more expensive, and is in a city built on a landfill that is slowly sinking into the SF bay.  I read the disclosures on new homes being built there a few years back, and they warn that these home might sink as much as 4ft over the next 50 years.
3.  Guy has no liquidity to his name during this process.  He literally posted a screenshot of his bank accounts showing less than $1 in combined liquidity for his family.  This was ~1 week ago.
4.  Just today he posts that his Volvo XC60 is getting too small for his family (wife and one kid), and is looking for recommendations between SUV's like the Honda Pilot, Escalade or Audi Q7.

I know he's not the Dr. in this situation, but I can tell you that in my experience, doctors are some of the worst money managers (there are exceptions) of any profession I've had the privilege of working with.

Out of curiosity, how do lawyers compare? I am one, and I am always surprised when I hear that professionals are such bad money managers. It is usually much easier to keep it than to earn it.

A lot of people actually don't agree that's it is easier to keep it than to earn more because that actually requires discipline and self-control. They'd rather spend their time trying to earn more so that they don't have to give up their precious luxuries, which they likely feel like they "need" because they are on the employment treadmill. And on and on it goes. Of course, the ideal is to keep it and earn more.

Another thing about doctors and lawyers is that they had to spend a lot of time and money in school and residency (or being at the bottom of their law firm) before making the big bucks, so for some that can encourage them to spend now that they have it. Also, I suspect that some of the same impulses that lead people to high consumption are also what lead them towards these fields.

The medical and law professions are huge in 'Keeping up with the Jones'". I know that since I have family members in these fields who resist the urge to comply. You come out of medical school, you are expected to drive a luxury vehicle, wear nice clothes, watches, etc. Meanwhile the savvy one is trying to save up to start a solo practice or buy into a group. Because getting business loans when you have medical school loans comes with high interest rates.

Yeah I can see that. I have a ton of doctors in my family and it is amazing how much they spent. Provided most of them are very well-enough and can afford it, but I know a few that talk about how they couldn't possibly retire even though they are in their 60's. I know one that is still paying for two of his adult children, one is a lawyer and another that's a doctor. The middle child is largely self-sufficient, but I imagine he does still spend a lot as well. He's a cousin that told me I would be stupid to consider retiring unless I had at least $2M.

[gimp]

Try being from Ohio! Universally hated as travelers in the US. Well, the South anyway.

I mean, I don't hate ohio tourists, but y'all tend to be fat, loud, and overly impressed by things. Also, I've met too many of you whose idea of seeing a national park is driving on the asphalt, getting out at a couple overlooks for a few minutes, then leaving.

[grantmeaname]

Oh yeah? Well the place you're from is bad too!

[Eric222]

Another thing about doctors and lawyers is that they had to spend a lot of time and money in school and residency (or being at the bottom of their law firm) before making the big bucks, so for some that can encourage them to spend now that they have it. Also, I suspect that some of the same impulses that lead people to high consumption are also what lead them towards these fields.

As someone fresh out of residency, who has been surrounded by doctors - a lot of people (myself included) borrow money to 'improve the quality of life' while they are in school and residency.  And what does it matter anyway?  Future you is going to make a ton of money.....

Um....I'm face punching past me.

[Spiffsome]

Lawyers and doctors are also encouraged to think that they're the smartest people in the room. Part of learning a new skill like money management is that first you have to acknowledge that you don't know what you're doing yet.

[MgoSam]

Another thing about doctors and lawyers is that they had to spend a lot of time and money in school and residency (or being at the bottom of their law firm) before making the big bucks, so for some that can encourage them to spend now that they have it. Also, I suspect that some of the same impulses that lead people to high consumption are also what lead them towards these fields.

As someone fresh out of residency, who has been surrounded by doctors - a lot of people (myself included) borrow money to 'improve the quality of life' while they are in school and residency.  And what does it matter anyway?  Future you is going to make a ton of money.....

Um....I'm face punching past me.

I am sympathetic towards this. You've been in school/residency for what, the past 10+ years (4 years undergrad, 3 years med, 3 years residency), and I imagine that nearly all of it was competitive and high stress. Then after you're out only then you start making some bank. I can understand the appeal of borrowing to live a little better, so long as it remains manageable AND you can keep it under control. All too often people will find themselves borrowing when they are making $100k because they will soon make $300k and then when they find themselves there, they find themselves way worse off because they are now borrowing even more. I have a family member that is in his second year of residency, still has most of his med school student loans left and he bought a condo in a very high rent area and so far as I know, is going out or eating out all the time. He has talked about collecting sports cars as soon as he starts making "real money." That said, he does work his ass off, moonlighting as much as he can to pay off his loans.

[gimp]

Oh yeah? Well the place you're from is bad too!

I know. SF bay area. Send water. I'm thirsty :(

[rockstache]

Someone on my local mom's FB group asked who was interested in joining a healthy slow cooker recipe group. I'm about to have a baby and would love some easy recipes so I said sure, sign me up. Turns out it's just a shill for MLM beachbody stuff and not that many recipes. Deceptive and disappointing.

That's too bad.  I'm a fan of beachbody, but I've been invited to groups where the purpose of the group was not what they said.  And that sucks.  "Join my group!!"  Turns out they are trying to sell me makeup.  Um, no thanks!

Yeah I'm sorry they roped you in. I had a friend post a cute idea for a very cheap gift swap for Christmas and it sounded great. Then I read it again and thought it didn't really sound like her "voice." Sure enough it was an MLM pitch and it was scripted. Glad I didn't fall for it.

[Frugal D]

Someone on my local mom's FB group asked who was interested in joining a healthy slow cooker recipe group. I'm about to have a baby and would love some easy recipes so I said sure, sign me up. Turns out it's just a shill for MLM beachbody stuff and not that many recipes. Deceptive and disappointing.

That's too bad.  I'm a fan of beachbody, but I've been invited to groups where the purpose of the group was not what they said.  And that sucks.  "Join my group!!"  Turns out they are trying to sell me makeup.  Um, no thanks!

Yeah I'm sorry they roped you in. I had a friend post a cute idea for a very cheap gift swap for Christmas and it sounded great. Then I read it again and thought it didn't really sound like her "voice." Sure enough it was an MLM pitch and it was scripted. Glad I didn't fall for it.

Just saw this same Christmas gift swap on my feed. So sick of this MLM shit.

[MgoSam]

Someone on my local mom's FB group asked who was interested in joining a healthy slow cooker recipe group. I'm about to have a baby and would love some easy recipes so I said sure, sign me up. Turns out it's just a shill for MLM beachbody stuff and not that many recipes. Deceptive and disappointing.

That's too bad.  I'm a fan of beachbody, but I've been invited to groups where the purpose of the group was not what they said.  And that sucks.  "Join my group!!"  Turns out they are trying to sell me makeup.  Um, no thanks!

Yeah I'm sorry they roped you in. I had a friend post a cute idea for a very cheap gift swap for Christmas and it sounded great. Then I read it again and thought it didn't really sound like her "voice." Sure enough it was an MLM pitch and it was scripted. Glad I didn't fall for it.

Just saw this same Christmas gift swap on my feed. So sick of this MLM shit.

Wow, I hate deceptive practices like that. I've had a few people doing MLM try to invite me with vague promises like, "I want to show you what do for a living" or "You're a smart person, I think you'll find this a great opportunity....oh, I'm sorry I can't tell it over FB, it must be in person."

[LeRainDrop]

Someone on my local mom's FB group asked who was interested in joining a healthy slow cooker recipe group. I'm about to have a baby and would love some easy recipes so I said sure, sign me up. Turns out it's just a shill for MLM beachbody stuff and not that many recipes. Deceptive and disappointing.

That's too bad.  I'm a fan of beachbody, but I've been invited to groups where the purpose of the group was not what they said.  And that sucks.  "Join my group!!"  Turns out they are trying to sell me makeup.  Um, no thanks!

Yeah I'm sorry they roped you in. I had a friend post a cute idea for a very cheap gift swap for Christmas and it sounded great. Then I read it again and thought it didn't really sound like her "voice." Sure enough it was an MLM pitch and it was scripted. Glad I didn't fall for it.

Just saw this same Christmas gift swap on my feed. So sick of this MLM shit.

Wow, I hate deceptive practices like that. I've had a few people doing MLM try to invite me with vague promises like, "I want to show you what do for a living" or "You're a smart person, I think you'll find this a great opportunity....oh, I'm sorry I can't tell it over FB, it must be in person."

I am so sick of seeing MLM posts by friends on my facebook feed!  I keep clicking to "hide" and then "see less from" those friends, but I keep getting it!  May be time to unfriend.

So, a very recent 20/20 episode was about "Secrets of the Sell," and one of the segments focused on the business of Mary Kay.  It's under 7 minutes long and quite interesting -- definitely worth a watch if you want more info to support an anti-MLM stance :-)
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/business-mary-kay-34216449

[meg_shannon]

Continuing education beyond a standard Bachelors degree doesn't cause overspending. I'm not sure why doctors and lawyers seem to overspend so much (I agree with others that it's probably the work culture combined with high potential earnings). My husband is a physicist researcher, so 6 years for phd and a 3 year post-doc before being hired as a researcher, and there isn't a culture of overspending at his lab. It's in a HCOL area so houses are expensive, but people don't wear flashy clothes, drive expensive cars, etc.

So that "send one 10$ gift and get 36 in return" is just an MLM shill? Good to know.

[Vorpal]

My cousin got pulled into an MLM (some hair care junk called Monat), and now 90% of her Facebook posts are advertisement. Hopefully it will pass...

[Ceridwen]

My FB feed is currently filled with an obnoxious children's book exchange reminiscent of chain letters.  "I need 6 children (any age), mums, dads, parents to be, or grandparents to participate in a children's book exchange. You have to purchase and mail one book to a child, and your child receives 36 in return! Let me know if you are interested and I'll send you the info".

How does that math even work??

Everyone is begging for participants.  I am *thisclose* to replying: Ever heard of a library? Free books, you get to choose them, and there is zero chance you will be screwed!

[druth]

Another thing about doctors and lawyers is that they had to spend a lot of time and money in school and residency (or being at the bottom of their law firm) before making the big bucks, so for some that can encourage them to spend now that they have it. Also, I suspect that some of the same impulses that lead people to high consumption are also what lead them towards these fields.

As someone fresh out of residency, who has been surrounded by doctors - a lot of people (myself included) borrow money to 'improve the quality of life' while they are in school and residency.  And what does it matter anyway?  Future you is going to make a ton of money.....

Um....I'm face punching past me.

I am sympathetic towards this. You've been in school/residency for what, the past 10+ years (4 years undergrad, 3 years med, 3 years residency), and I imagine that nearly all of it was competitive and high stress. Then after you're out only then you start making some bank. I can understand the appeal of borrowing to live a little better, so long as it remains manageable AND you can keep it under control. All too often people will find themselves borrowing when they are making $100k because they will soon make $300k and then when they find themselves there, they find themselves way worse off because they are now borrowing even more. I have a family member that is in his second year of residency, still has most of his med school student loans left and he bought a condo in a very high rent area and so far as I know, is going out or eating out all the time. He has talked about collecting sports cars as soon as he starts making "real money." That said, he does work his ass off, moonlighting as much as he can to pay off his loans.

Not a lawyer, but I did a law internship along side many current/future law students.  There was a very common mentality of "Well I'm already 200k in debt, no point in stopping now."  Most were planning to work for the fed though, so they had a point.  After 10 year loan forgiveness why should you care?  I think doctors have some of the same forgiveness programs as well.  The way it's structured now it seems like there is a big incentive to get no loans or ALL THE LOANS and then find a loophole to get out of them.

[justajane]

Not related to finances, but I'm weary of the hyperbole on Facebook, particularly in relation to new profile pictures. I see this almost exclusively with women, but every time someone gets a new profile pictures the comments are along the lines as follows:

Stunning!

Beautiful!

Gorgeous!

Hot!

etc. etc.

Why is "great picture!" or whatever not good enough anymore? We're not all stunning or beautiful or whatever. Why do we need to engage in such hyperbole? Fellow females, I'm looking at you.

[aetherie]

So that "send one 10$ gift and get 36 in return" is just an MLM shill? Good to know.

Yep. http://www.snopes.com/secret-sisters-gift-exchange/

[Tallgirl1204]

Not related to finances, but I'm weary of the hyperbole on Facebook, particularly in relation to new profile pictures. I see this almost exclusively with women, but every time someone gets a new profile pictures the comments are along the lines as follows:

Stunning!

Beautiful!

Gorgeous!

Hot!

etc. etc.

Why is "great picture!" or whatever not good enough anymore? We're not all stunning or beautiful or whatever. Why do we need to engage in such hyperbole? Fellow females, I'm looking at you.

As for why...  I know I'm not stunning, gorgeous, hot.  I'm a middle-aged woman with a commensurately aged and un-plasticized face and body.  But geez, it feels GOOD to hear I'm pretty, if I know that by this culture's impossible standards I'm no better than a two.  At worst, it's a white lie that hurts no one.  And you know what?  Sometimes it's not even a lie.  My friends are beautiful to me, always.  So why shouldn't I say so?  So, there's a "why" or two.   

[justajane]

Not related to finances, but I'm weary of the hyperbole on Facebook, particularly in relation to new profile pictures. I see this almost exclusively with women, but every time someone gets a new profile pictures the comments are along the lines as follows:

Stunning!

Beautiful!

Gorgeous!

Hot!

etc. etc.

Why is "great picture!" or whatever not good enough anymore? We're not all stunning or beautiful or whatever. Why do we need to engage in such hyperbole? Fellow females, I'm looking at you.

As for why...  I know I'm not stunning, gorgeous, hot.  I'm a middle-aged woman with a commensurately aged and un-plasticized face and body.  But geez, it feels GOOD to hear I'm pretty, if I know that by this culture's impossible standards I'm no better than a two.  At worst, it's a white lie that hurts no one.  And you know what?  Sometimes it's not even a lie.  My friends are beautiful to me, always.  So why shouldn't I say so?  So, there's a "why" or two.   

Thanks for your perspective. I understand what you are saying. I guess I just think that the hyperbole downplays real compliments or real expressions of affection. I just object to the constant "You go girl" culture of Facebook in general. And the very, very public displays of affection and expressions of love that IMO are more of a private nature. For instance, anniversaries or Mother's Day or Father's Day. Now telling your mom that she is your best friend or your spouse the best man or woman you have ever known has migrated into a public and open forum for all of your 100 or 200 or 300 or (good lord) even 1,000 friends to see. I guess I just reserve my compliments of my friends or my husband for face-to-face meetings or private e-mails or cards.

Maybe it's just a personality thing, but these types of excess displays of affection make me uncomfortable, because it doesn't ring true to me. 

Also, I think in a social media world, women can become somewhat reliant on these IMO extreme displays of affection and a complimentary culture. If you change your public profile picture now and no one comments with "Foxy!" or whatever, does that mean that you are not as sexy or beautiful as the friend who did get those responses?

And, to get back to finances, this type of "You go girl" culture reinforces consumerism. You post a picture of your manicure or your new outfit and you get the requisite "You deserve it!" or all the myriad of things that we see posted here.

I use Facebook and definitely think that it has its place, but it also brings out some aspects of peoples' personalities that I don't always enjoy.

[RWD]

So that "send one 10$ gift and get 36 in return" is just an MLM shill? Good to know.

Yep. http://www.snopes.com/secret-sisters-gift-exchange/

Wow... Not only deceptive but also illegal!

However, the plausibility of actually garnering returns was secondary to a far bigger problem with the "secret sister" scheme. According to the U.S. Postal Inspection Service, gift chains aren't just "mathematically impossible"; they're also illegal:

There's at least one problem with chain letters. They're illegal if they request money or other items of value and promise a substantial return to the participants. Chain letters are a form of gambling, and sending them through the mail (or delivering them in person or by computer, but mailing money to participate) violates Title 18, United States Code, Section 1302, the Postal Lottery Statute. (Chain letters that ask for items of minor value, like picture postcards or recipes, may be mailed, since such items are not things of value within the meaning of the law.)

[mm1970]

Continuing education beyond a standard Bachelors degree doesn't cause overspending. I'm not sure why doctors and lawyers seem to overspend so much (I agree with others that it's probably the work culture combined with high potential earnings). My husband is a physicist researcher, so 6 years for phd and a 3 year post-doc before being hired as a researcher, and there isn't a culture of overspending at his lab. It's in a HCOL area so houses are expensive, but people don't wear flashy clothes, drive expensive cars, etc.

So that "send one 10$ gift and get 36 in return" is just an MLM shill? Good to know.

What do physicist researchers make when all is said and done?

Because I'm pretty sure my son's friend's dad (a doctor) is making about $400k a year.  Or thereabouts.

It's not advanced education, it's the (future) promise of big salaries, and then making those big salaries.

[mm1970]

My FB feed is currently filled with an obnoxious children's book exchange reminiscent of chain letters.  "I need 6 children (any age), mums, dads, parents to be, or grandparents to participate in a children's book exchange. You have to purchase and mail one book to a child, and your child receives 36 in return! Let me know if you are interested and I'll send you the info".

How does that math even work??

Everyone is begging for participants.  I am *thisclose* to replying: Ever heard of a library? Free books, you get to choose them, and there is zero chance you will be screwed!

I *just* got this once on FB and once by text.  No thanks. 

[JrDoctor]

Another thing about doctors and lawyers is that they had to spend a lot of time and money in school and residency (or being at the bottom of their law firm) before making the big bucks, so for some that can encourage them to spend now that they have it. Also, I suspect that some of the same impulses that lead people to high consumption are also what lead them towards these fields.

As someone fresh out of residency, who has been surrounded by doctors - a lot of people (myself included) borrow money to 'improve the quality of life' while they are in school and residency.  And what does it matter anyway?  Future you is going to make a ton of money.....

Um....I'm face punching past me.

I know a bloke who borrowed £10k to help fund his medical elective abroad for three months. 

Having just started work I do see alot of temptation to spend.  At work, because you are too tired to organise yourself to have coffee/lunch etc available so you buy overpriced canteen rubbish.

Then when you do get home you are tired, cycling to the local cheap supermarket is much harder than going to the overpriced convenience.  One also feels the pressure to maximise off time (due to there being so little) which often entails spending. 

So far I've seen many people buying £10-15k german cars, which represents 50% of there pre tax wage, ridiculous.

[meg_shannon]

Continuing education beyond a standard Bachelors degree doesn't cause overspending. I'm not sure why doctors and lawyers seem to overspend so much (I agree with others that it's probably the work culture combined with high potential earnings). My husband is a physicist researcher, so 6 years for phd and a 3 year post-doc before being hired as a researcher, and there isn't a culture of overspending at his lab. It's in a HCOL area so houses are expensive, but people don't wear flashy clothes, drive expensive cars, etc.

So that "send one 10$ gift and get 36 in return" is just an MLM shill? Good to know.

What do physicist researchers make when all is said and done?

Because I'm pretty sure my son's friend's dad (a doctor) is making about $400k a year.  Or thereabouts.

It's not advanced education, it's the (future) promise of big salaries, and then making those big salaries.

I referenced the high potential earnings in my post. As far as how much a physicist makes, it depends on where they work. Adjuncts get paid crap (but there's no research there). Tenured professors more, but again that not solely research focused. At the national labs, pay ranges from about 70K to 150K depending on location, career stage, awards, promotions, grants, etc. At private companies, and there are a few who do big research, you can make more (but the job isn't as secure), but not anywhere near 400K.

[Squirrel away]

And how about the issue that a woman's value is her looks, not her actions or her brains. It starts so young, and is culturally entrenched.

+1.

[AlanStache]

...
Because I'm pretty sure my son's friend's dad (a doctor) is making about $400k a year.  Or thereabouts.
...

Have talked to some medical peeps where yes they have that really big top line number but the tax man takes a big cut, then student loans take a cut then malpractice insurance is not cheap so that by the time you get to disposable/take home income it is much much lower than you might think.  Down to the levels of a mere research physicist I dont know and I am sure there are 1000 variations on all this too.  But I have seen that you need to be careful when looking at doctors top line income and trying to compare it to other fields.  That said at 400$k/year no one should be living paycheck to paycheck. 

I have also talked to pilots with very good incomes and some of them view ex-wives as a necessary business expense, like there is no way to become a senior test pilot without paying the ex X$k/month.  -Stories told round the bar- Your Truths May Vary.

[OlyFish]

Another thing about doctors and lawyers is that they had to spend a lot of time and money in school and residency (or being at the bottom of their law firm) before making the big bucks, so for some that can encourage them to spend now that they have it. Also, I suspect that some of the same impulses that lead people to high consumption are also what lead them towards these fields.

As someone fresh out of residency, who has been surrounded by doctors - a lot of people (myself included) borrow money to 'improve the quality of life' while they are in school and residency.  And what does it matter anyway?  Future you is going to make a ton of money.....

Um....I'm face punching past me.

I am sympathetic towards this. You've been in school/residency for what, the past 10+ years (4 years undergrad, 3 years med, 3 years residency), and I imagine that nearly all of it was competitive and high stress. Then after you're out only then you start making some bank. I can understand the appeal of borrowing to live a little better, so long as it remains manageable AND you can keep it under control. All too often people will find themselves borrowing when they are making $100k because they will soon make $300k and then when they find themselves there, they find themselves way worse off because they are now borrowing even more. I have a family member that is in his second year of residency, still has most of his med school student loans left and he bought a condo in a very high rent area and so far as I know, is going out or eating out all the time. He has talked about collecting sports cars as soon as he starts making "real money." That said, he does work his ass off, moonlighting as much as he can to pay off his loans.

I'm about 1.5 years out of residency. the number of people who end residency and go on a two month long vacation prior to starting actual work is mind boggling to me. I also knew a lot of people who were going to Vegas once a month during residency/ bought their first BMW as soon as they were out. Or they were really into going to bars and drinking things that are mentioned in rap songs.

I know a lot of people who do feel like they need to "keep up with appearances" but I know quite a few doctors who are being smart... a few friends who are working in kind of crappy cities because they pay you more, knowing that it is only for a couple of years. I'm putting 12% of my pre-tax earnings into retirement funds, and just about every other paycheck that goes home goes into debt reduction/ savings. I will have over $200K worth of debt (pretty standard amount after medical school) paid off within 5 years after residency.  The house will be paid off 3 years later. I should be fine to retire at 50, with a very safe withdrawal rate, if I so choose.

TL; DR-- not all doctors are financial idiots.

[HairyUpperLip]

Another thing about doctors and lawyers is that they had to spend a lot of time and money in school and residency (or being at the bottom of their law firm) before making the big bucks, so for some that can encourage them to spend now that they have it. Also, I suspect that some of the same impulses that lead people to high consumption are also what lead them towards these fields.

As someone fresh out of residency, who has been surrounded by doctors - a lot of people (myself included) borrow money to 'improve the quality of life' while they are in school and residency.  And what does it matter anyway?  Future you is going to make a ton of money.....

Um....I'm face punching past me.

I am sympathetic towards this. You've been in school/residency for what, the past 10+ years (4 years undergrad, 3 years med, 3 years residency), and I imagine that nearly all of it was competitive and high stress. Then after you're out only then you start making some bank. I can understand the appeal of borrowing to live a little better, so long as it remains manageable AND you can keep it under control. All too often people will find themselves borrowing when they are making $100k because they will soon make $300k and then when they find themselves there, they find themselves way worse off because they are now borrowing even more. I have a family member that is in his second year of residency, still has most of his med school student loans left and he bought a condo in a very high rent area and so far as I know, is going out or eating out all the time. He has talked about collecting sports cars as soon as he starts making "real money." That said, he does work his ass off, moonlighting as much as he can to pay off his loans.

I'm about 1.5 years out of residency. the number of people who end residency and go on a two month long vacation prior to starting actual work is mind boggling to me. I also knew a lot of people who were going to Vegas once a month during residency/ bought their first BMW as soon as they were out. Or they were really into going to bars and drinking things that are mentioned in rap songs.

I know a lot of people who do feel like they need to "keep up with appearances" but I know quite a few doctors who are being smart... a few friends who are working in kind of crappy cities because they pay you more, knowing that it is only for a couple of years. I'm putting 12% of my pre-tax earnings into retirement funds, and just about every other paycheck that goes home goes into debt reduction/ savings. I will have over $200K worth of debt (pretty standard amount after medical school) paid off within 5 years after residency.  The house will be paid off 3 years later. I should be fine to retire at 50, with a very safe withdrawal rate, if I so choose.

TL; DR-- not all doctors are financial idiots.

My uncle is a doctor and makes $450k/year
His son is in medical school and drives a BMW 328i.

Made me find humor in reading the previous couple posts back to back, lol.

[Jesstache]

Not related to finances, but I'm weary of the hyperbole on Facebook, particularly in relation to new profile pictures. I see this almost exclusively with women, but every time someone gets a new profile pictures the comments are along the lines as follows:

Stunning!

Beautiful!

Gorgeous!

Hot!

etc. etc.

Why is "great picture!" or whatever not good enough anymore? We're not all stunning or beautiful or whatever. Why do we need to engage in such hyperbole? Fellow females, I'm looking at you.

As for why...  I know I'm not stunning, gorgeous, hot.  I'm a middle-aged woman with a commensurately aged and un-plasticized face and body.  But geez, it feels GOOD to hear I'm pretty, if I know that by this culture's impossible standards I'm no better than a two.  At worst, it's a white lie that hurts no one.  And you know what?  Sometimes it's not even a lie.  My friends are beautiful to me, always.  So why shouldn't I say so?  So, there's a "why" or two.   

Thanks for your perspective. I understand what you are saying. I guess I just think that the hyperbole downplays real compliments or real expressions of affection. I just object to the constant "You go girl" culture of Facebook in general. And the very, very public displays of affection and expressions of love that IMO are more of a private nature. For instance, anniversaries or Mother's Day or Father's Day. Now telling your mom that she is your best friend or your spouse the best man or woman you have ever known has migrated into a public and open forum for all of your 100 or 200 or 300 or (good lord) even 1,000 friends to see. I guess I just reserve my compliments of my friends or my husband for face-to-face meetings or private e-mails or cards.

Maybe it's just a personality thing, but these types of excess displays of affection make me uncomfortable, because it doesn't ring true to me. 

Also, I think in a social media world, women can become somewhat reliant on these IMO extreme displays of affection and a complimentary culture. If you change your public profile picture now and no one comments with "Foxy!" or whatever, does that mean that you are not as sexy or beautiful as the friend who did get those responses?

And, to get back to finances, this type of "You go girl" culture reinforces consumerism. You post a picture of your manicure or your new outfit and you get the requisite "You deserve it!" or all the myriad of things that we see posted here.

I use Facebook and definitely think that it has its place, but it also brings out some aspects of peoples' personalities that I don't always enjoy.

And how about the issue that a woman's value is her looks, not her actions or her brains. It starts so young, and is culturally entrenched.

We have a 4 year old daughter and whenever someone tells her how cute she is, she responds with, "Thank you, I'm smart too."  People usually think it is hilarious.  I just think it's true (and it is :) ).  Of course she didn't come up this idea on her own, we started her on it but I hope she always remembers this and knows it's true.  I like that maybe it gets the other person thinking about their words to little girls too. 

On the flip side is she's figured out she can turn it around and in the times I've said, "You're so smart!" She'll respond with, "I'm cute too!"  Little stinker!  haha!

[maco]

We have a 4 year old daughter and whenever someone tells her how cute she is, she responds with, "Thank you, I'm smart too."  People usually think it is hilarious.  I just think it's true (and it is :) ).  Of course she didn't come up this idea on her own, we started her on it but I hope she always remembers this and knows it's true.  I like that maybe it gets the other person thinking about their words to little girls too. 

On the flip side is she's figured out she can turn it around and in the times I've said, "You're so smart!" She'll respond with, "I'm cute too!"  Little stinker!  haha!

Be sure to toss "hard worker" in there too. Internalizing "smart" can result in overemphasizing innate talent over determination, resulting in an attitude of "well, I guess this just isn't for me" on encountering something difficult, rather than "I need to try harder." Basically: every kid that ever coasted through high school without trying and gets terrible grades in college because they've never practiced studying (hi!).

[Pooperman]

We have a 4 year old daughter and whenever someone tells her how cute she is, she responds with, "Thank you, I'm smart too."  People usually think it is hilarious.  I just think it's true (and it is :) ).  Of course she didn't come up this idea on her own, we started her on it but I hope she always remembers this and knows it's true.  I like that maybe it gets the other person thinking about their words to little girls too. 

On the flip side is she's figured out she can turn it around and in the times I've said, "You're so smart!" She'll respond with, "I'm cute too!"  Little stinker!  haha!

Be sure to toss "hard worker" in there too. Internalizing "smart" can result in overemphasizing innate talent over determination, resulting in an attitude of "well, I guess this just isn't for me" on encountering something difficult, rather than "I need to try harder." Basically: every kid that ever coasted through high school without trying and gets terrible grades in college because they've never practiced studying (hi!).

Or actually doing homework, because that's a thing. When I actually tried in college, I was a B+/A- student (engineering). Still, I graduated with a B- GPA...

[Jesstache]

We have a 4 year old daughter and whenever someone tells her how cute she is, she responds with, "Thank you, I'm smart too."  People usually think it is hilarious.  I just think it's true (and it is :) ).  Of course she didn't come up this idea on her own, we started her on it but I hope she always remembers this and knows it's true.  I like that maybe it gets the other person thinking about their words to little girls too. 

On the flip side is she's figured out she can turn it around and in the times I've said, "You're so smart!" She'll respond with, "I'm cute too!"  Little stinker!  haha!

Be sure to toss "hard worker" in there too. Internalizing "smart" can result in overemphasizing innate talent over determination, resulting in an attitude of "well, I guess this just isn't for me" on encountering something difficult, rather than "I need to try harder." Basically: every kid that ever coasted through high school without trying and gets terrible grades in college because they've never practiced studying (hi!).

Or actually doing homework, because that's a thing. When I actually tried in college, I was a B+/A- student (engineering). Still, I graduated with a B- GPA...

Yes, we definitely encourage effort above all else.  She's a perfectionist and a lot of times won't try to do something unless she knows she can do it well/right.  It's been a high focus of ours to just try things and encourage making mistakes and it's really paying off in her reading.  She's attempting to read lots of things now when previously she would quit when she hit a word she wasn't sure of. 

FWIW her father and I were both Valedictorians in HS and Honors students in college (engineering majors).

[Pooperman]

We have a 4 year old daughter and whenever someone tells her how cute she is, she responds with, "Thank you, I'm smart too."  People usually think it is hilarious.  I just think it's true (and it is :) ).  Of course she didn't come up this idea on her own, we started her on it but I hope she always remembers this and knows it's true.  I like that maybe it gets the other person thinking about their words to little girls too. 

On the flip side is she's figured out she can turn it around and in the times I've said, "You're so smart!" She'll respond with, "I'm cute too!"  Little stinker!  haha!

Be sure to toss "hard worker" in there too. Internalizing "smart" can result in overemphasizing innate talent over determination, resulting in an attitude of "well, I guess this just isn't for me" on encountering something difficult, rather than "I need to try harder." Basically: every kid that ever coasted through high school without trying and gets terrible grades in college because they've never practiced studying (hi!).

Or actually doing homework, because that's a thing. When I actually tried in college, I was a B+/A- student (engineering). Still, I graduated with a B- GPA...

Yes, we definitely encourage effort above all else.  She's a perfectionist and a lot of times won't try to do something unless she knows she can do it well/right.  It's been a high focus of ours to just try things and encourage making mistakes and it's really paying off in her reading.  She's attempting to read lots of things now when previously she would quit when she hit a word she wasn't sure of. 

FWIW her father and I were both Valedictorians in HS and Honors students in college (engineering majors).

That's good to hear! :). Self-imposed perfectionism isn't a good thing, externally-imposed perfectionism is far, far worse. Took me forever to understand that making mistakes made me a better person than if I had never tried in the first place.

[Paul der Krake]

Took me forever to understand that making mistakes made me a better person than if I had never tried in the first place.

QFT. Something to live by.

[Jack]

No foam in this thread? Let's discuss all the possible uses of hashtags and all share our general attitude towards them.

#sike

It's "psych," damn it! #spelling #pedant #foam #hashtag #hashtaghashtag

[dragoncar]

No foam in this thread? Let's discuss all the possible uses of hashtags and all share our general attitude towards them.

#sike

It's "psych," damn it! #spelling #pedant #foam #hashtag #hashtaghashtag

#samedifference #forallintensivepurposes
and #icouldcareless

[Jack]

No foam in this thread? Let's discuss all the possible uses of hashtags and all share our general attitude towards them.

#sike

It's "psych," damn it! #spelling #pedant #foam #hashtag #hashtaghashtag

#samedifference #forallintensivepurposes
and #icouldcareless

^#forallintentsandpurposes

Also, #thatmeansyoudocare #atleastalittle #weirdalwordcrimes #hashtagselfloathing

[JLee]

A friend just posted that he's selling his Mustang GT with 9500 miles on it (for the ~$35k balance on his loan) because the Shelby is out now and he wants the new one...

[RWD]

A friend just posted that he's selling his Mustang GT with 9500 miles on it (for the ~$35k balance on his loan) because the Shelby is out now and he wants the new one...

But modern Shelby Mustangs have been available for almost a decade... Why didn't he just buy a used one instead of the Mustang GT? The 2007-2009 GT500 (which has an adequate 500 hp) can be found for under $30k for a low mileage example. If you wanted to blow more than $30k on a car you really shouldn't be looking at Mustangs.

[JLee]

A friend just posted that he's selling his Mustang GT with 9500 miles on it (for the ~$35k balance on his loan) because the Shelby is out now and he wants the new one...

But modern Shelby Mustangs have been available for almost a decade... Why didn't he just buy a used one instead of the Mustang GT? The 2007-2009 GT500 (which has an adequate 500 hp) can be found for under $30k for a low mileage example. If you wanted to blow more than $30k on a car you really shouldn't be looking at Mustangs.

If I was going to blow 30k on a car it'd be a 2009+ CTS-V. Mmmm.....but I digress.

[mm1970]

...
Because I'm pretty sure my son's friend's dad (a doctor) is making about $400k a year.  Or thereabouts.
...

Have talked to some medical peeps where yes they have that really big top line number but the tax man takes a big cut, then student loans take a cut then malpractice insurance is not cheap so that by the time you get to disposable/take home income it is much much lower than you might think.  Down to the levels of a mere research physicist I dont know and I am sure there are 1000 variations on all this too.  But I have seen that you need to be careful when looking at doctors top line income and trying to compare it to other fields.  That said at 400$k/year no one should be living paycheck to paycheck. 

I have also talked to pilots with very good incomes and some of them view ex-wives as a necessary business expense, like there is no way to become a senior test pilot without paying the ex X$k/month.  -Stories told round the bar- Your Truths May Vary.

Yeah, well this guy works for a group, so not sure if he covers malpractice or if they do.  Also, he's not young (I'm 45, he's probably 50), so he "worked his way  up" to that number.

He's also not very spendy.  Paying down the mortgage faster than normal, we have conversations on how to get good prices on plane tickets...

[mm1970]

We have a 4 year old daughter and whenever someone tells her how cute she is, she responds with, "Thank you, I'm smart too."  People usually think it is hilarious.  I just think it's true (and it is :) ).  Of course she didn't come up this idea on her own, we started her on it but I hope she always remembers this and knows it's true.  I like that maybe it gets the other person thinking about their words to little girls too. 

On the flip side is she's figured out she can turn it around and in the times I've said, "You're so smart!" She'll respond with, "I'm cute too!"  Little stinker!  haha!

Be sure to toss "hard worker" in there too. Internalizing "smart" can result in overemphasizing innate talent over determination, resulting in an attitude of "well, I guess this just isn't for me" on encountering something difficult, rather than "I need to try harder." Basically: every kid that ever coasted through high school without trying and gets terrible grades in college because they've never practiced studying (hi!).

Or actually doing homework, because that's a thing. When I actually tried in college, I was a B+/A- student (engineering). Still, I graduated with a B- GPA...

Yes, we definitely encourage effort above all else.  She's a perfectionist and a lot of times won't try to do something unless she knows she can do it well/right.  It's been a high focus of ours to just try things and encourage making mistakes and it's really paying off in her reading.  She's attempting to read lots of things now when previously she would quit when she hit a word she wasn't sure of. 

FWIW her father and I were both Valedictorians in HS and Honors students in college (engineering majors).

Yes, this.  Spouse and I were also Valedictorians and honors engineers in college.

My 9 year old son is such a perfectionist, and he won't try if he doesn't think he'll do it well.  We have been working VERY hard with him over the years to correct this - teaching him that you have to practice, you can't start out being good at something.

He's also a sore loser (mainly at Chess, because he's super good at it.)  We are working on that too.

Just this morning he freaked the fuck out on me.  He's in the voluntary 4th grade math club.  He didn't finish his homework. He starts crying that he'll get kicked out and not be able to compete if he doesn't finish.  (The competition is in the spring. Completely the homework is a part of how they decide who goes.  Only 3 or 4 kids of the 13 will get to compete - and it depends on how good you are AND if you finish the homework.  If you are awesome and don't do the homework?  You aren't going.)

Anyway-  Firstly, I pointed out that he watched TV this week, so it's total BS that he "didn't have time".   Secondly, most of the other kids don't finish either, so not finishing the homework doesn't mean you don't get to compete (especially since my husband is the volunteer math teacher).  Thirdly, he was doing long division, which he'd never learned.  So at 7:30 am  I'm trying to teach him long division, and he has to leave at 8.  And he has 2 full pages, 20 problems per page.  I tried to be the gentle, calming influence.  Because yelling really doesn't work.  But after 15 minutes, I finally yelled "you are NOT going to learn it right away you have to PRACTICE.  PUT IT AWAY."  Oy.  That upset the 3 year old so he started crying "you made me frustrated".  Anyway, mother of the year.

I just wanted to say, I feel you.  It's a lot of work to teach your kids about hard work, and learning, and not expecting everything to be easy.  Boy, we started this when my son was 3 or 4 - at 9 it's STILL an issue.