Overheard on Facebook

[Goldielocks]

How can kids be awful?

Clearly you're not a parent

Devious, yes

Frustrating, check.

Wailing crying  banshees that tear at your soul until you are a twitching, no sleep wreck, yep.
(Nanny would likely  bad job choice for me, LOL)

But awful just being kids?  Does not fit. 

[justajane]

Sounds like excuses to me,

Are you by chance a.. complainypants?

So clearly not sarcasm. I don't consider myself to have a flawless sarcasm meter, but it didn't sound like it to me.

Austin's response to our discussion here has prompted me to finally open a new thread about defining the term "complainypants."

Since this is a fun thread about FB, I'll just link to it here:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-do-you-define-a-%27complainypants%27/

[Threshkin]

Why can't you confine your kids to a certain section of the house that will always be messy.  Like a play room or basement, or maybe a closet under the stairs?

Dog crates are very effective.
/sarc

[forestbound]

Saw this on my Facebook feed. This woman clearly took the wrong lesson from her mother's death. I can't help but feel badly for her.

[fantabulous]

Why can't you confine your kids to a certain section of the house that will always be messy.  Like a play room or basement, or maybe a closet under the stairs?

Dog crates are very effective.
/sarc

My parents were very frugal about that. Rather than buying a dog crate, they'd just empty out a laundry basket and put something heavy on top so I couldn't get out.

[solon]

Why can't you confine your kids to a certain section of the house that will always be messy.  Like a play room or basement, or maybe a closet under the stairs?

Dog crates are very effective.
/sarc

My parents were very frugal about that. Rather than buying a dog crate, they'd just empty out a laundry basket and put something heavy on top so I couldn't get out.

Also excellent on cats.

[austin]

Sounds like excuses to me,

Are you by chance a.. complainypants?

So clearly not sarcasm. I don't consider myself to have a flawless sarcasm meter, but it didn't sound like it to me.

Austin's response to our discussion here has prompted me to finally open a new thread about defining the term "complainypants."

Since this is a fun thread about FB, I'll just link to it here:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-do-you-define-a-%27complainypants%27/

This entire forum is dedicated to mocking people who make different choices with how to spend their time and money. I think it is hilarious when people post here with that intent, but get offended because someone then mocks their choices on how to spend their time and money, like for example being at home all day but still having a messy house. A lot of people here can dish it out but they can't take it.

[fartface]

Saturday: "We are FINALLY getting the HELL out of Illinois. I miss my condo. Orlando here we come. Can't wait to see Mickey!!!"

Sunday: Arrived in Orlando after a long day of travel. Guess what? We left the keys to the condo at home in IL. {sad face}. I just want to thank my sister Stacie for taking the time to mail them to us. In the meantime, we're stuck here at a hotel for two nights -- 15 mins from the condo -- while we wait for the keys to arrive via Fed-Ex.

Tuesday: Making the most of this rainy day taking adorable photos of my two teenage daughters cleaning the condo {one is dusting a ceiling fan and the other wiping the floor -- exciting action shots}. At least they're earning money for the MALL!

Wednesday (today): CHECK IN @ AMC Movie Theater Downtown Disney. "Mom/Daughter time - We're FINALLY gonna see Mockingjay - Hooray!"

2 hours later: CHECK IN @ Strikesville Bowling Alley Downtown Disney -complete with Mother/Daughter selfie.

So - in sum: spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a vacation condo you visit twice per year PLUS thousands of dollars traveling there and THEN, when you arrive spend your time shopping at the Disney mall, going to the Disney movies, and bowling at the Disney  alley because it's a far more magical experience than any mall, theater or bowling alley you've got at home. amirite?

[fantabulous]

So - in sum: spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a vacation condo you visit twice per year PLUS thousands of dollars traveling there and THEN, when you arrive spend your time shopping at the Disney mall, going to the Disney movies, and bowling at the Disney  alley because it's a far more magical experience than any mall, theater or bowling alley you've got at home. amirite?

I just eat some glitter and the magic comes out soon enough.

[resy]

Sounds like excuses to me,

Are you by chance a.. complainypants?

So clearly not sarcasm. I don't consider myself to have a flawless sarcasm meter, but it didn't sound like it to me.

Austin's response to our discussion here has prompted me to finally open a new thread about defining the term "complainypants."

Since this is a fun thread about FB, I'll just link to it here:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/how-do-you-define-a-%27complainypants%27/

This entire forum is dedicated to mocking people who make different choices with how to spend their time and money. I think it is hilarious when people post here with that intent, but get offended because someone then mocks their choices on how to spend their time and money, like for example being at home all day but still having a messy house. A lot of people here can dish it out but they can't take it.

^THIS. And nope kids are not horrible.and people shouldn't be  judged by their messy house but it is a choice. I grew up being responsible for my messes and it didn't traumatize me, I had a wonderful childhood in fact. I fid have certain off-limit areas for toys (kitxhen, dinning room, bathroom and I anyone's bedroom that wasn't mine). I think this whole "let the kids roam atound the house jumping around and making big mess after big mess and I will just spend my day cleaning after them and not doing much of anything else"  is part of spoiling kids which is not my cup of tea. But thats a personal value. It just is that you reap what you sow so dont complain about your dirty house if that's the choice you make. I have a kid amd he plays in his room in the living room, free to make messes bit at the end of the day there is pick up time and he participates. my house is far from perfect (havent cleaned batrooms in about 2 weeks lol) but thats been my choice (and I dont blame it on the kid) and Im ok with it.

[mm1970]

Being home with kids doesn't mean having time to clean, esp if all the kids in question are very young and you are the only adult in charge.

My best friend on this subject:

A fellow wrote a nice article in the Washington Post about his wife. The upshot was that he used to think that his wife was being lazy because the house wasn't clean. Now, he's realised that the house isn't clean because she has two small kids. Okay, so apparently the writer lives in 1985 and has just had his eyes open to the notion that small children are messy and labour-intensive, but whatever. Nice of him to try.

Remember when newspapers had news?

Anyhow, I should not have read the comments. Never, ever read the comments. I tell my mother this. I tell my friends this. But I still do it.

The comments informed me that if only I were more organised/better/harder working,  my house would look like a centrefold in Better Homes and Gardens and my children would also be deeply fulfilled.

So, let's implement that advice.

Advice: Enlist the children in picking up after themselves.

Implementation: I try to tidy up before Husband gets home so he doesn't, idk. Faint. I mistimed and left a half hour of chaos between tidying and Husband Arrival. I asked the children to please watch preschool television for an hour and please, please, do not destroy the house. So my youngest chose to strew toothpicks all over hell's half acre.

No worries! I assigned my second-born to pick up the toothpicks. And since Genome is an easy-going  love, he hopped to. When I returned ten minutes later, the toothpicks were moved  around, but not a one was back in its  container.

Genome, what happened? "I put the toothpicks  back. But Lolly wants the the toothpicks out, and she is much faster than I am.

Conclusion: Reality remains the same whether the person tidying is six or sixty. Destruction is faster than construction. One-year-olds cannot go a half hour without strewing toothpicks all over. Hide the toothpicks.

Advice: Clean with the children around! Don't leave them out. For example, one could mop up with the toddler on a chair in the being-mopped room.

Implementation: I left Lolly on a stool while I washed down the walls in the bathroom. I do not normally wash walls. Don't get the wrong idea. I'm having some pregnancy crazy here.

She took the opportunity to grab the prefold I was trying to wash with, shove it down the toilet, and flush. Then while I was extracting it, she tracked the toilet water about the house. Then when everything was cleaned up, she decided she needed to relax with a bottle.

I need a bottle too.

Too bad I'm pregnant.

Conclusion: Washing walls? What kind of stupid idea was that anyway? Just be happy prefolds can't fit down toilets.

Of course, the same toddler did this recently:

http://stealthjew.blogspot.com/2014/08/return-of-empire-of-zinc-cream-strikes.html

This made me LOL.  One of my kids is little, you know, the age of destruction.

My spouse was off this week with the kids.  Every day I came home the house was a DISASTER.  Literally all the toys on the floor, dinner not even thought of much less started.  Like, nuts.  He says "my first mistake was thinking I could get stuff done.  I stripped the sheets from the bed and they jumped all over them and threw stuff all over the place."

It gets better as they age, but it's a net negative during some years.  They did go outside and play, etc.  We don't have much of a yard though, and what we do have is tiered and has stone and is on the dangerous side for the toddler.

As far as confining it to one area, I mean, our house is only 1100 sf.

[GuitarStv]

So - in sum: spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a vacation condo you visit twice per year PLUS thousands of dollars traveling there and THEN, when you arrive spend your time shopping at the Disney mall, going to the Disney movies, and bowling at the Disney  alley because it's a far more magical experience than any mall, theater or bowling alley you've got at home. amirite?

I just eat some glitter and the magic comes out soon enough.

Bahahahahaha!

[zolotiyeruki]

Why can't you confine your kids to a certain section of the house that will always be messy.  Like a play room or basement, or maybe a closet under the stairs?

As a father of 6 kids, let me just say......bwahahahahahahahahaha!  The only ways you can effectively perform such a feat would probably get Child Protective Services called on you!

[Simple Abundant Living]

I follow the Non-Consumer Advocate, which has a facebook group.  This was just posted:

"Sigh. I was really digging Mister Money Mustache and was reading through the archives from the first post...until I got to the post where he says that he started making $41,000 at 22 right out of college and had zero student loan debt...and now I can't bring myself to read further. NCA is definitely more for the normal person and thank you for that (and no pretension)"

"He also claims to be retired but seems to basically flip houses, expensive houses. To each their own."

"I can't read his level of all-knowing pretension now that I know it comes from a place of such...I don't want to say privilege...maybe ease? Like I feel like his blog is now only useful to 19 year olds as an "hey don't spend like a dumbass or go to a college you can't afford" Like who are you to talk like you are so powerful and all-knowing when you've never actually had to worry about your cash flow?"

"He claims he made good decisions early on, but he had some good luck as well. A lot of financial success is luck...born in the US, not a third world country, born to educated, middle class parents instead of into poverty...much greater chance you will make it."

"Yep, he's totally privileged. Not his fault; he was just dealt a great hand and therefore can live the life he chooses (I wouldn't choose to retire at 30 anyway, myself, even if I could). I do wish these guys would acknowledge their privilege, though. I think he's got wisdom to share but isn't really able to be grounded enough to advise people who didn't get dealt such a great hand."

Anyway, the complainypants was really getting to me. Of course MMM had many gifts given to him, but to ignore the hard work and sacrifice is a way of saying "I can't do the same, he is privileged". I have noticed this group has a lot of women who are barely scraping by. But there's too much "Have you tried 'family cloths instead of toilet paper?" Instead of "How can I train for a better career?" Some principles of frugality are common in both groups, but the victim mentality is (thankfully) missing here.

[NumberJohnny5]

So - in sum: spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a vacation condo you visit twice per year PLUS thousands of dollars traveling there and THEN, when you arrive spend your time shopping at the Disney mall, going to the Disney movies, and bowling at the Disney  alley because it's a far more magical experience than any mall, theater or bowling alley you've got at home. amirite?

I think we're missing the part where they complain about being broke, or not able to afford groceries that week, or something. Could you post that part of the story?

[eyePod]

I follow the Non-Consumer Advocate, which has a facebook group.  This was just posted:

"Sigh. I was really digging Mister Money Mustache and was reading through the archives from the first post...until I got to the post where he says that he started making $41,000 at 22 right out of college and had zero student loan debt...and now I can't bring myself to read further. NCA is definitely more for the normal person and thank you for that (and no pretension)"

"He also claims to be retired but seems to basically flip houses, expensive houses. To each their own."

"I can't read his level of all-knowing pretension now that I know it comes from a place of such...I don't want to say privilege...maybe ease? Like I feel like his blog is now only useful to 19 year olds as an "hey don't spend like a dumbass or go to a college you can't afford" Like who are you to talk like you are so powerful and all-knowing when you've never actually had to worry about your cash flow?"

"He claims he made good decisions early on, but he had some good luck as well. A lot of financial success is luck...born in the US, not a third world country, born to educated, middle class parents instead of into poverty...much greater chance you will make it."

"Yep, he's totally privileged. Not his fault; he was just dealt a great hand and therefore can live the life he chooses (I wouldn't choose to retire at 30 anyway, myself, even if I could). I do wish these guys would acknowledge their privilege, though. I think he's got wisdom to share but isn't really able to be grounded enough to advise people who didn't get dealt such a great hand."

Anyway, the complainypants was really getting to me. Of course MMM had many gifts given to him, but to ignore the hard work and sacrifice is a way of saying "I can't do the same, he is privileged". I have noticed this group has a lot of women who are barely scraping by. But there's too much "Have you tried 'family cloths instead of toilet paper?" Instead of "How can I train for a better career?" Some principles of frugality are common in both groups, but the victim mentality is (thankfully) missing here.

Yikes. I know plenty of people who had the same "privilege" who squandered it. This guy did the right things well and we should try to emulate those if we want to go a similar path...

[lizzie]

Not really heard on facebook, but a story told by my uncle at thanksgiving:

Neighbor of his calls out of the blue recently to ask how long my uncle's toilet tanks take to refill. My uncle has no idea. So the neighbor comes over to time them for comparison purposes. Apparently the neighbor's tanks take 60 seconds, and this is unacceptably slow.

Turns out my uncle's tanks take 60 seconds, too. This does not mollify the neighbor. He goes out and buys all new toilets, at a cost of $700 each, to cut the time down to 40 seconds.

[resy]

I follow the Non-Consumer Advocate, which has a facebook group.  This was just posted:

"Sigh. I was really digging Mister Money Mustache and was reading through the archives from the first post...until I got to the post where he says that he started making $41,000 at 22 right out of college and had zero student loan debt...and now I can't bring myself to read further. NCA is definitely more for the normal person and thank you for that (and no pretension)"

"He also claims to be retired but seems to basically flip houses, expensive houses. To each their own."

"I can't read his level of all-knowing pretension now that I know it comes from a place of such...I don't want to say privilege...maybe ease? Like I feel like his blog is now only useful to 19 year olds as an "hey don't spend like a dumbass or go to a college you can't afford" Like who are you to talk like you are so powerful and all-knowing when you've never actually had to worry about your cash flow?"

"He claims he made good decisions early on, but he had some good luck as well. A lot of financial success is luck...born in the US, not a third world country, born to educated, middle class parents instead of into poverty...much greater chance you will make it."

"Yep, he's totally privileged. Not his fault; he was just dealt a great hand and therefore can live the life he chooses (I wouldn't choose to retire at 30 anyway, myself, even if I could). I do wish these guys would acknowledge their privilege, though. I think he's got wisdom to share but isn't really able to be grounded enough to advise people who didn't get dealt such a great hand."

Anyway, the complainypants was really getting to me. Of course MMM had many gifts given to him, but to ignore the hard work and sacrifice is a way of saying "I can't do the same, he is privileged". I have noticed this group has a lot of women who are barely scraping by. But there's too much "Have you tried 'family cloths instead of toilet paper?" Instead of "How can I train for a better career?" Some principles of frugality are common in both groups, but the victim mentality is (thankfully) missing here.

I had never heard of non consumer advocate so intrigued I googled and landed on their site. Ummm...so first thing I see is a post for black friday telling you its the day to ditch your family and "shop till you drop"(yes, written close by to whay seems to be their motto of wear it out, use it up or do without or something of the like) then came a long list of promo codes.
I kept looking for the hidden joke but didn't find it, this was a real post. Didn't want to see anything else after that.

[Joshin]

I follow the Non-Consumer Advocate, which has a facebook group.  This was just posted:

"Sigh. I was really digging Mister Money Mustache and was reading through the archives from the first post...until I got to the post where he says that he started making $41,000 at 22 right out of college and had zero student loan debt...and now I can't bring myself to read further. NCA is definitely more for the normal person and thank you for that (and no pretension)"

"He also claims to be retired but seems to basically flip houses, expensive houses. To each their own."

"I can't read his level of all-knowing pretension now that I know it comes from a place of such...I don't want to say privilege...maybe ease? Like I feel like his blog is now only useful to 19 year olds as an "hey don't spend like a dumbass or go to a college you can't afford" Like who are you to talk like you are so powerful and all-knowing when you've never actually had to worry about your cash flow?"

"He claims he made good decisions early on, but he had some good luck as well. A lot of financial success is luck...born in the US, not a third world country, born to educated, middle class parents instead of into poverty...much greater chance you will make it."

"Yep, he's totally privileged. Not his fault; he was just dealt a great hand and therefore can live the life he chooses (I wouldn't choose to retire at 30 anyway, myself, even if I could). I do wish these guys would acknowledge their privilege, though. I think he's got wisdom to share but isn't really able to be grounded enough to advise people who didn't get dealt such a great hand."

Anyway, the complainypants was really getting to me. Of course MMM had many gifts given to him, but to ignore the hard work and sacrifice is a way of saying "I can't do the same, he is privileged". I have noticed this group has a lot of women who are barely scraping by. But there's too much "Have you tried 'family cloths instead of toilet paper?" Instead of "How can I train for a better career?" Some principles of frugality are common in both groups, but the victim mentality is (thankfully) missing here.

I had never heard of non consumer advocate so intrigued I googled and landed on their site. Ummm...so first thing I see is a post for black friday telling you its the day to ditch your family and "shop till you drop"(yes, written close by to whay seems to be their motto of wear it out, use it up or do without or something of the like) then came a long list of promo codes.
I kept looking for the hidden joke but didn't find it, this was a real post. Didn't want to see anything else after that.

Um, that post is a joke. Read the promo codes: "THEBESTSAVINGSISMONEYNOTEVENSPENT"  "USEITUPWEARITUPMAKEITDOORDOWITHOUT"

Katy's site is awesome, but different than MMM. I like both. The Facebook group is sometimes great, but other times it's filled with a bunch of complainypants (like the above FB post). There's a subset on the FB group that I get the distinct vibe are forced to be frugal, and they aren't really nonconsumer by choice so they feel a grudge against those that are -- especially those that are financially better off than them and still choosing frugal/nonconsumer options. Overall, it's a pretty DIY minded group, but more DIYing decor, gifts, food and luxuries than construction/car type DIY.

[resy]

I follow the Non-Consumer Advocate, which has a facebook group.  This was just posted:

"Sigh. I was really digging Mister Money Mustache and was reading through the archives from the first post...until I got to the post where he says that he started making $41,000 at 22 right out of college and had zero student loan debt...and now I can't bring myself to read further. NCA is definitely more for the normal person and thank you for that (and no pretension)"

"He also claims to be retired but seems to basically flip houses, expensive houses. To each their own."

"I can't read his level of all-knowing pretension now that I know it comes from a place of such...I don't want to say privilege...maybe ease? Like I feel like his blog is now only useful to 19 year olds as an "hey don't spend like a dumbass or go to a college you can't afford" Like who are you to talk like you are so powerful and all-knowing when you've never actually had to worry about your cash flow?"

"He claims he made good decisions early on, but he had some good luck as well. A lot of financial success is luck...born in the US, not a third world country, born to educated, middle class parents instead of into poverty...much greater chance you will make it."

"Yep, he's totally privileged. Not his fault; he was just dealt a great hand and therefore can live the life he chooses (I wouldn't choose to retire at 30 anyway, myself, even if I could). I do wish these guys would acknowledge their privilege, though. I think he's got wisdom to share but isn't really able to be grounded enough to advise people who didn't get dealt such a great hand."

Anyway, the complainypants was really getting to me. Of course MMM had many gifts given to him, but to ignore the hard work and sacrifice is a way of saying "I can't do the same, he is privileged". I have noticed this group has a lot of women who are barely scraping by. But there's too much "Have you tried 'family cloths instead of toilet paper?" Instead of "How can I train for a better career?" Some principles of frugality are common in both groups, but the victim mentality is (thankfully) missing here.

I had never heard of non consumer advocate so intrigued I googled and landed on their site. Ummm...so first thing I see is a post for black friday telling you its the day to ditch your family and "shop till you drop"(yes, written close by to whay seems to be their motto of wear it out, use it up or do without or something of the like) then came a long list of promo codes.
I kept looking for the hidden joke but didn't find it, this was a real post. Didn't want to see anything else after that.

Um, that post is a joke. Read the promo codes: "THEBESTSAVINGSISMONEYNOTEVENSPENT"  "USEITUPWEARITUPMAKEITDOORDOWITHOUT"

Katy's site is awesome, but different than MMM. I like both. The Facebook group is sometimes great, but other times it's filled with a bunch of complainypants (like the above FB post). There's a subset on the FB group that I get the distinct vibe are forced to be frugal, and they aren't really nonconsumer by choice so they feel a grudge against those that are -- especially those that are financially better off than them and still choosing frugal/nonconsumer options. Overall, it's a pretty DIY minded group, but more DIYing decor, gifts, food and luxuries than construction/car type DIY.

ahh I see lol a little confusing to a newcomer though-I'm sure I cant be the only person that doesn't look at promo codes intently. Will check out the site again

[austin]

I follow the Non-Consumer Advocate, which has a facebook group.  This was just posted:

"Sigh. I was really digging Mister Money Mustache and was reading through the archives from the first post...until I got to the post where he says that he started making $41,000 at 22 right out of college and had zero student loan debt...and now I can't bring myself to read further. NCA is definitely more for the normal person and thank you for that (and no pretension)"

"He also claims to be retired but seems to basically flip houses, expensive houses. To each their own."

"I can't read his level of all-knowing pretension now that I know it comes from a place of such...I don't want to say privilege...maybe ease? Like I feel like his blog is now only useful to 19 year olds as an "hey don't spend like a dumbass or go to a college you can't afford" Like who are you to talk like you are so powerful and all-knowing when you've never actually had to worry about your cash flow?"

"He claims he made good decisions early on, but he had some good luck as well. A lot of financial success is luck...born in the US, not a third world country, born to educated, middle class parents instead of into poverty...much greater chance you will make it."

"Yep, he's totally privileged. Not his fault; he was just dealt a great hand and therefore can live the life he chooses (I wouldn't choose to retire at 30 anyway, myself, even if I could). I do wish these guys would acknowledge their privilege, though. I think he's got wisdom to share but isn't really able to be grounded enough to advise people who didn't get dealt such a great hand."

Anyway, the complainypants was really getting to me. Of course MMM had many gifts given to him, but to ignore the hard work and sacrifice is a way of saying "I can't do the same, he is privileged". I have noticed this group has a lot of women who are barely scraping by. But there's too much "Have you tried 'family cloths instead of toilet paper?" Instead of "How can I train for a better career?" Some principles of frugality are common in both groups, but the victim mentality is (thankfully) missing here.

I had never heard of non consumer advocate so intrigued I googled and landed on their site. Ummm...so first thing I see is a post for black friday telling you its the day to ditch your family and "shop till you drop"(yes, written close by to whay seems to be their motto of wear it out, use it up or do without or something of the like) then came a long list of promo codes.
I kept looking for the hidden joke but didn't find it, this was a real post. Didn't want to see anything else after that.

Um, that post is a joke. Read the promo codes: "THEBESTSAVINGSISMONEYNOTEVENSPENT"  "USEITUPWEARITUPMAKEITDOORDOWITHOUT"

Katy's site is awesome, but different than MMM. I like both. The Facebook group is sometimes great, but other times it's filled with a bunch of complainypants (like the above FB post). There's a subset on the FB group that I get the distinct vibe are forced to be frugal, and they aren't really nonconsumer by choice so they feel a grudge against those that are -- especially those that are financially better off than them and still choosing frugal/nonconsumer options. Overall, it's a pretty DIY minded group, but more DIYing decor, gifts, food and luxuries than construction/car type DIY.

ahh I see lol a little confusing to a newcomer though-I'm sure I cant be the only person that doesn't look at promo codes intently. Will check out the site again

You're in large company. http://literallyunbelievable.org/

[Malaysia41]

You're in large company. http://literallyunbelievable.org/

Ha Ha Ha Ha.  These commenters don't listen to NPR. 

Off to brainstorm ideas for commemorating the 42M Black Friday dead.

[Primm]

I had never heard of non consumer advocate so intrigued I googled and landed on their site. Ummm...so first thing I see is a post for black friday telling you its the day to ditch your family and "shop till you drop"(yes, written close by to whay seems to be their motto of wear it out, use it up or do without or something of the like) then came a long list of promo codes.
I kept looking for the hidden joke but didn't find it, this was a real post. Didn't want to see anything else after that.

Did you read the promo codes?

IALREADYHAVEENOUGH

ILIKELYHAVETOOMUCHSTUFF

THEBESTSAVINGSISMONEYNOTEVENSPENT

SLEEPINGINISBETTERTHANWAITINGINLINE

MALL?NOTHANKYOU

USEITUPWEARITUPMAKEITDOORDOWITHOUT


Here, I'll do them for you with the spaces between the words...

I ALREADY HAVE ENOUGH

I LIKELY HAVE TOO MUCH STUFF

THE BEST SAVINGS IS MONEY NOT EVEN SPENT

SLEEPING IN IS BETTER THAN WAITING IN LINE

MALL? NO THANK YOU

USE IT UP WEAR IT UP MAKE IT DO OR DO WITHOUT


And there are no links. Yes, it was a real post. The "codes" were the hidden joke.


ETA: Sorry, just realised someone else had pointed this out up-thread. Late to the party as usual!

[homehandymum]

I follow the Non-Consumer Advocate, which has a facebook group.  This was just posted:

"Sigh. I was really digging Mister Money Mustache and was reading through the archives from the first post...until I got to the post where he says that he started making $41,000 at 22 right out of college and had zero student loan debt...and now I can't bring myself to read further. NCA is definitely more for the normal person and thank you for that (and no pretension)"

"He also claims to be retired but seems to basically flip houses, expensive houses. To each their own."

"I can't read his level of all-knowing pretension now that I know it comes from a place of such...I don't want to say privilege...maybe ease? Like I feel like his blog is now only useful to 19 year olds as an "hey don't spend like a dumbass or go to a college you can't afford" Like who are you to talk like you are so powerful and all-knowing when you've never actually had to worry about your cash flow?"

"He claims he made good decisions early on, but he had some good luck as well. A lot of financial success is luck...born in the US, not a third world country, born to educated, middle class parents instead of into poverty...much greater chance you will make it."

"Yep, he's totally privileged. Not his fault; he was just dealt a great hand and therefore can live the life he chooses (I wouldn't choose to retire at 30 anyway, myself, even if I could). I do wish these guys would acknowledge their privilege, though. I think he's got wisdom to share but isn't really able to be grounded enough to advise people who didn't get dealt such a great hand."

Anyway, the complainypants was really getting to me. Of course MMM had many gifts given to him, but to ignore the hard work and sacrifice is a way of saying "I can't do the same, he is privileged". I have noticed this group has a lot of women who are barely scraping by. But there's too much "Have you tried 'family cloths instead of toilet paper?" Instead of "How can I train for a better career?" Some principles of frugality are common in both groups, but the victim mentality is (thankfully) missing here.

Yes, I saw that one too!  I remember reading somewhere that one of the frugal divas (can't remember her blog at all, it was some years ago), saying that 9 times out of 10, if someone is writing in for their laundry soap recipe there are MUCH bigger fish to fry in their budgets.  Basically, when in a debt crisis, people will start being incredibly penny wise, but still astoundingly pound foolish - they'll start making their own laundry soap (saving, maximum $2 per week?), or using family cloths (how expensive is cheap toilet paper?!) while still running multiple cars and keeping cable tv and pricey cell phone plans.

Obviously there are exceptions to that rule, but for me it's a nice reminder to take a step back and look at my overall spending as well, whenever I get the impulse to make those little minor changes.

[rocksinmyhead]

I follow the Non-Consumer Advocate, which has a facebook group.  This was just posted:

"Sigh. I was really digging Mister Money Mustache and was reading through the archives from the first post...until I got to the post where he says that he started making $41,000 at 22 right out of college and had zero student loan debt...and now I can't bring myself to read further. NCA is definitely more for the normal person and thank you for that (and no pretension)"

"He also claims to be retired but seems to basically flip houses, expensive houses. To each their own."

"I can't read his level of all-knowing pretension now that I know it comes from a place of such...I don't want to say privilege...maybe ease? Like I feel like his blog is now only useful to 19 year olds as an "hey don't spend like a dumbass or go to a college you can't afford" Like who are you to talk like you are so powerful and all-knowing when you've never actually had to worry about your cash flow?"

"He claims he made good decisions early on, but he had some good luck as well. A lot of financial success is luck...born in the US, not a third world country, born to educated, middle class parents instead of into poverty...much greater chance you will make it."

"Yep, he's totally privileged. Not his fault; he was just dealt a great hand and therefore can live the life he chooses (I wouldn't choose to retire at 30 anyway, myself, even if I could). I do wish these guys would acknowledge their privilege, though. I think he's got wisdom to share but isn't really able to be grounded enough to advise people who didn't get dealt such a great hand."

Anyway, the complainypants was really getting to me. Of course MMM had many gifts given to him, but to ignore the hard work and sacrifice is a way of saying "I can't do the same, he is privileged". I have noticed this group has a lot of women who are barely scraping by. But there's too much "Have you tried 'family cloths instead of toilet paper?" Instead of "How can I train for a better career?" Some principles of frugality are common in both groups, but the victim mentality is (thankfully) missing here.

I had never heard of non consumer advocate so intrigued I googled and landed on their site. Ummm...so first thing I see is a post for black friday telling you its the day to ditch your family and "shop till you drop"(yes, written close by to whay seems to be their motto of wear it out, use it up or do without or something of the like) then came a long list of promo codes.
I kept looking for the hidden joke but didn't find it, this was a real post. Didn't want to see anything else after that.

Um, that post is a joke. Read the promo codes: "THEBESTSAVINGSISMONEYNOTEVENSPENT"  "USEITUPWEARITUPMAKEITDOORDOWITHOUT"

Katy's site is awesome, but different than MMM. I like both. The Facebook group is sometimes great, but other times it's filled with a bunch of complainypants (like the above FB post). There's a subset on the FB group that I get the distinct vibe are forced to be frugal, and they aren't really nonconsumer by choice so they feel a grudge against those that are -- especially those that are financially better off than them and still choosing frugal/nonconsumer options. Overall, it's a pretty DIY minded group, but more DIYing decor, gifts, food and luxuries than construction/car type DIY.

Agree with all of this. I love Katy's blog and get some good things out of the Facebook site, but definitely get a complainypants/victim vibe from some posters. Like, if you suggest things like being open to moving to a lower COL area or working on ways to increase your income, you are treated like an insane person. If I revealed that I work for "Big Oil" and make six figures I feel like I would be run out of "town". LOL. But I guess that's why MMM resonates more with me, I'm a young person who hasn't had time to make a lot of big mistakes yet, and my biggest mistake (private undergrad --> $70k student loan debt) was largely ameliorated by landing a lucrative job out of school (which, yeah, totally had a large luck/privilege component).

Oh, and that one woman who kept commenting things like, "But MMM is so LUCKY to have all those DIY construction-type skills!!" ... WTF? Are you familiar with the meaning of the word "luck"? :)

[Joshin]

Agree with all of this. I love Katy's blog and get some good things out of the Facebook site, but definitely get a complainypants/victim vibe from some posters. Like, if you suggest things like being open to moving to a lower COL area or working on ways to increase your income, you are treated like an insane person. If I revealed that I work for "Big Oil" and make six figures I feel like I would be run out of "town". LOL. But I guess that's why MMM resonates more with me, I'm a young person who hasn't had time to make a lot of big mistakes yet, and my biggest mistake (private undergrad --> $70k student loan debt) was largely ameliorated by landing a lucrative job out of school (which, yeah, totally had a large luck/privilege component).

Oh, and that one woman who kept commenting things like, "But MMM is so LUCKY to have all those DIY construction-type skills!!" ... WTF? Are you familiar with the meaning of the word "luck"? :)

Yeah, I made the possible mistake of wading in. I have never, ever, ever met any adult with absolutely no options that could improve their life -- no matter where they fall on the financial or social spectrum. I HAVE met many, many people that have made plenty of excuses for not making said changes. There is a lot of overlooking of the fact that just about everyone that was born in a first world country with even the slightest social safety net is way more privileged than most of the world's population -- in other words, they are all highly privileged! I was also a little taken aback to see someone say that empowering someone was akin to looking down upon them. The saving grace is there are quite a few posters on that thread that "get it," and of the ones that don't, some have a history of arguing just for argument's sake.

C'est la vie. The discussion at least will make a few people think, and possibly even set a few on the road to making positive changes in their own lives. There will always be a few deaf ears and complainypants!

[Poopsio]

OVERHEARD ON FACEBOOK

Wait, I deleted that thing, I don't hear anything.

[galliver]

Oh, and that one woman who kept commenting things like, "But MMM is so LUCKY to have all those DIY construction-type skills!!" ... WTF? Are you familiar with the meaning of the word "luck"? :)

Actually that is is of the issues I have with his rhetoric sometimes. No one can go from zero to DIY everything in no time flat. MMM had a handy dad that showed him around power tools and car repairs. That have him the basic skills to evaluate the information online and in YouTube videos about, eg, fixing his car's brakes. He had intuition about how to do these things even if he needs to look up specifics.

My dad took the car to the mechanic and hates manual labor/tools/DIY. I took woodshop in middle school and loved it, but I've spent my whole life in apartments...Not much space to set up tools. I can sew, assemble IKEA furniture, paint a room, and disassemble a drain to clean it, but I wouldn't repair a major appliance or vehicle. Yet.

Basically, he's lucky to have been in a situation with the opportunity and resources to learn his DIY skills. That's not nothing.

[ketchup]

"You're so lucky to know how to fix your car." bothers me tremendously.  Three years ago I didn't know a crackshaft from a brake caliper or a torque wrench from an oil pan.  Then I bought an old car.  An old car and the internet taught me everything I needed to know about dealing with cars.  Two Novembers ago I replaced the head gasket in my roommate's car on the side of the road in front of our house without a garage.  No luck involved.

[dycker1978]

"You're so lucky to know how to fix your car." bothers me tremendously.  Three years ago I didn't know a crackshaft from a brake caliper or a torque wrench from an oil pan.  Then I bought an old car.  An old car and the internet taught me everything I needed to know about dealing with cars.  Two Novembers ago I replaced the head gasket in my roommate's car on the side of the road in front of our house without a garage.  No luck involved.

I agree with this... any person can learn anything... given the proper time and effort.  Now you may not want to take that time and effort, that is up to you, but do say you can, you can.

[MgoSam]

"You're so lucky to know how to fix your car." bothers me tremendously.  Three years ago I didn't know a crackshaft from a brake caliper or a torque wrench from an oil pan.  Then I bought an old car.  An old car and the internet taught me everything I needed to know about dealing with cars.  Two Novembers ago I replaced the head gasket in my roommate's car on the side of the road in front of our house without a garage.  No luck involved.

+1, this is something that I would love to do as well. I grew up with parents who hired people to do most everything, including things that don't take much skill but take up a little time, such as cutting the grass (we have a HUGE backyard...um, you knew that when you bought the house?), or plowing the driveway (we have a HUGE driveway...again, you knew that when you bought the house. Now don't get me wrong, these aren't pleasant things, and had my dad just said, "I feel like I work ___ hours a week and so spending some money to pay a guy to mow the line so I can enjoy my Sundays is worth ___ to me," would make a lot more sense. Or had they had brought up the opportunity cost of it.

The sad part is, I distinctly remember offering to shovel when I was in middle school (I don't know), and being declined.

For handyman situations, they would bring someone in to do it for them, instead of learning. Thankfully most of the people that came in didn't mind me standing by them, watching. Right now I have very little handyman skills, but I'm always willing to learn and try. When my car stereo didn't work, I bought on online and installed it myself, which I found to be incredibly satisfying. Each time I listen to NPR on it, I think "I installed this!"

[rocksinmyhead]

Oh, and that one woman who kept commenting things like, "But MMM is so LUCKY to have all those DIY construction-type skills!!" ... WTF? Are you familiar with the meaning of the word "luck"? :)

Actually that is is of the issues I have with his rhetoric sometimes. No one can go from zero to DIY everything in no time flat. MMM had a handy dad that showed him around power tools and car repairs. That have him the basic skills to evaluate the information online and in YouTube videos about, eg, fixing his car's brakes. He had intuition about how to do these things even if he needs to look up specifics.

My dad took the car to the mechanic and hates manual labor/tools/DIY. I took woodshop in middle school and loved it, but I've spent my whole life in apartments...Not much space to set up tools. I can sew, assemble IKEA furniture, paint a room, and disassemble a drain to clean it, but I wouldn't repair a major appliance or vehicle. Yet.

Basically, he's lucky to have been in a situation with the opportunity and resources to learn his DIY skills. That's not nothing.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. But really, my parents didn't teach me anything about household/construction DIY either (my mom did teach me about sewing, which is helpful), and I still feel like I can learn how to do stuff. You even said yourself: "I wouldn't repair a major appliance or vehicle. Yet." THAT'S the mustachian attitude, I think, in contrast to complainypants who just think they could NEVER do something like that.

For handyman situations, they would bring someone in to do it for them, instead of learning. Thankfully most of the people that came in didn't mind me standing by them, watching. Right now I have very little handyman skills, but I'm always willing to learn and try. When my car stereo didn't work, I bought on online and installed it myself, which I found to be incredibly satisfying. Each time I listen to NPR on it, I think "I installed this!"

See, stuff like this. I'm WAY not handy, but I'm slowly getting there. "Handy" projects within the last few years have included: learning to change and/or patch a bike tube, and replace rim tape; learning to rig my sailboat (I was generally familiar with the setup of standing rigging on <20' sloop rigged boats, but not my particular boat from 1979 that I had never heard of before I bought it); and recently, taking out the screws and wall anchors that were holding our plastic bag holder to the kitchen wall so we could move it, and then patching said holes... seriously, BASIC shit, but I still feel so accomplished when I do pretty much anything! Granted, in general home handiness situations I do have the luxury of a handy boyfriend who makes me try to do things so I learn, but is always there to help salvage things that go wrong... but in the case of bikes and sailboats, he knows less about them than I do, so it's just me and the internet.

[Joshin]

Yep, most of us can learn almost anything, and better yet, learn it for free. A year or two ago an acquaintance was begging for money on -- you guessed it -- Facebook to call a plumber because the trap beneath the bathroom sink had somehow got a hole in it. Now, I'm not super repair savvy, but I know this is one of those no-brainer plumbing fixes. I have two boys, I have removed that trap countless times to retrieve small toys or just clean it out. I've even replaced one. So, I told her the basic procedure, linked her to a youtube video, and told her she could do the whole repair for less than $10, depending on which pipe she picks out (PVC or chrome). Her response was along the lines of, "oh no, my dad says never mess with the plumbing yourself or you'll end up with an even bigger problem." Okaaaaaay. Personally, I'd prefer to take my chances on something simple than beg for money, but to each their own.

As for DIY skills, the hubs and I only had a few. Most I had learned from being absolutely broke with no other options than to just try. But, most of the big box hardware stores offer free tool classes. Habitat for humanity is a great way to learn skills just for volunteering on a build here and there. We know a couple that volunteered with habitat for a few years, and then took the skills they learned to build themselves a cabin. (They were not habitat recipients, just volunteers.) I learned to change my brake pads back in the day with the help of a Chilton's and Autozone (the internet wasn't quite as helpful for this sort of thing 17 years ago).

So sure, some people have the privilege of learning young, but all of us on this board have the privilege of unlimited free information and learning resources on our computers, so I think that pretty much washes out as "equal" in the long run.

[Poopsio]

Yep, most of us can learn almost anything, and better yet, learn it for free. A year or two ago an acquaintance was begging for money on -- you guessed it -- Facebook to call a plumber because the trap beneath the bathroom sink had somehow got a hole in it. Now, I'm not super repair savvy, but I know this is one of those no-brainer plumbing fixes. I have two boys, I have removed that trap countless times to retrieve small toys or just clean it out. I've even replaced one. So, I told her the basic procedure, linked her to a youtube video, and told her she could do the whole repair for less than $10, depending on which pipe she picks out (PVC or chrome). Her response was along the lines of, "oh no, my dad says never mess with the plumbing yourself or you'll end up with an even bigger problem." Okaaaaaay. Personally, I'd prefer to take my chances on something simple than beg for money, but to each their own.

As for DIY skills, the hubs and I only had a few. Most I had learned from being absolutely broke with no other options than to just try. But, most of the big box hardware stores offer free tool classes. Habitat for humanity is a great way to learn skills just for volunteering on a build here and there. We know a couple that volunteered with habitat for a few years, and then took the skills they learned to build themselves a cabin. (They were not habitat recipients, just volunteers.) I learned to change my brake pads back in the day with the help of a Chilton's and Autozone (the internet wasn't quite as helpful for this sort of thing 17 years ago).

So sure, some people have the privilege of learning young, but all of us on this board have the privilege of unlimited free information and learning resources on our computers, so I think that pretty much washes out as "equal" in the long run.

See, this is the point of business--to outsource things you can't do yourself. I think the downside of mustachianism is that we all think we can and should become DIYers. So we do and spend our time fixing shit. But the downside is that good jobs are hard to find because most of our needs are being taken care of ourselves.

Money is simply a means to improve the quality of life. In a perfect world of money, there would be no mustachian sacrifices to be made. You would work, no doubt, but then you would use your money to do things you don't know how to do. Right now a lot of people don't have jobs because there isn't as much work. But we still shed skin--floors are just as dirty as they have always been and need cleaning. We still get sick, we just put off going to the doctor. We still eat, we just eat in. A lot of economic activity is BS "spreading the wealth" that ingrains spending habits with social habits, not necessarily the efficient allocation or conservation of resources (that would be not driving because gas prices are too high). Someone "working" at a restaurant really isn't doing anything you can't do at home but you pay them your "money" because eating out is a pleasurable affair where you can try out new things, socialize, and not have to worry about cooking.

If work wasn't looked down upon mustachianism would be stupid. It's only a good thing because A. the market is volatile B. saving is a good thing to an extent C. the option to quit working is a good thing and D. nobody here is bill gates. The more mustachian society gets, the more expensive plumbers are going to be. I don't think it's a bad thing to spend money on hiring a plumber if you have the money. I do think the mustachian ethos, by looking down on people who want to pay for a plumber, can make people take it too far and lose the bigger picture of why we have money, business, and society. i want to say "to each his own" but historically, in the great depression, that was not good, and it was the collective action of WWII that really brought people out of the depression.

so in conclusion, I think too much mustachianism can be unhealthy for society because so much of our economy is based on spending that in many ways *should* be considered a good thing. if we all depended on plumbers, the cost of plumbing services would go down inevitably, and we wouldn't be living lives thinking our only option for unclogging our drain is to spend our weekend fixing it. i think there's nothing wrong with thinking that that's a good thing but I also think that wanting to pay a plumber should not be looked down upon.

[Joshin]

I don't disagree with you, Poopsio, but this person COULDN'T pay for a plumber yet WOULDN'T even consider doing it herself.

I honestly believe everyone needs some basic DIY skills. It's seems to be becoming basic rule that many people just live with things the way they are if they can't afford to pay someone to fix them and don't know how to do it themselves. In this instance, no one gets paid and quality of life suffers. If learning the basics lets them save money so they can outsource the big things, that's a big win all around.

There's no need to pay someone to change my car battery, but if I have the resources I sure as hell will pay someone else to replace my engine. At most, I'll find someone that will let me source my own engine so I can avoid the parts mark-up, but engine replacement isn't on my list of desirable skills to learn. If I've been wasting money on battery and tail light replacement, chances are the car will sit in the drive without an engine until I can afford it, which may not ever happen if I'm in the habit of pissing away cash outsourcing little problems.

I just realized this is wandering way off topic, so I'll stop now!

[gimp]

Wow, a trifecta! Who the heck leaves $100 in a car?

I always have, like, $40-100 in the car, depending. Usually less, but more if I travel. It's emergency money. There are a lot of reasons while driving that I might need a few 20s. I also keep an emergency road kit and survival kit in there; it's all the same thing. Seems reasonable to me.

Then again, most people drive normal places, near home, with cell service and the ability to call for help should anything happen. Many people don't even carry a jack and spare, or jumper cables, or a tire pump. I'm regularly places where if I break down, I'm fucked unless I can fix the problem myself (where problem might be less mechanical, and more death from exposure, cold, or thirst.)

[terrier56]

Poopsio,

I think that mustashian would have a much smaller effect than the up and coming automation of everything. It requires a deeper understanding of economics to understand where the world economy is going.

Many jobs have become obsolete over the year but time and time again the human race has found jobs for the people (be it more mundane perhaps). A few hundred years ago more than 90% of the population worked in food production. Now that number is less than 1%. With the automatic car coming about in the next few years. Taxis, truckers and delivery service men will all hit the jobless line. These are some of the largest employment sectors in the US.

I could go on but it is getting off topic. My point is that a very small percentage of DIYers is not costing the economy.

In fact it could (and should be) argued the opposite. It has been proven that investing money (giving it to businesses) employs more people than just spending that cash.

[Poopsio]

Poopsio,

I think that mustashian would have a much smaller effect than the up and coming automation of everything. It requires a deeper understanding of economics to understand where the world economy is going.

Many jobs have become obsolete over the year but time and time again the human race has found jobs for the people (be it more mundane perhaps). A few hundred years ago more than 90% of the population worked in food production. Now that number is less than 1%. With the automatic car coming about in the next few years. Taxis, truckers and delivery service men will all hit the jobless line. These are some of the largest employment sectors in the US.

I could go on but it is getting off topic. My point is that a very small percentage of DIYers is not costing the economy.

In fact it could (and should be) argued the opposite. It has been proven that investing money (giving it to businesses) employs more people than just spending that cash.

I will never use a car that can drive me and I will always go out of my house to run errands instead of sitting on my ass ordering things. I like the present just fine. I think the "automation" predictions are done by people with economic interests in the industry.

For every cab driver out of business I believe there will be more people that will have to maintain these robots. Plus robots are a bitch to talk to. Siri blows. People like talking to people.

I worked in a lab once where we could have used a computer program to perform a task but we did research and determined that humans did a better job.

Really I think it's an idea advanced by the industry (silicon valley) that you read about on google news and "tech" websites. I think it's a bunch of hot air.

[firelight]

Not every one has the ability to run errands or drive themselves everywhere... I'd love it if there was an automated way I can get groceries or anything home without me spending much effort if it meant I can spend more quality time with my kids and I definitely like the idea of a car driving itself if it meant lesser accidents and safer roads.

Ask people that are sick or at home on bed rest or simply not able to go out of home, they'd love the automation that would bring them food and other necessities home without much effort. Ask anyone over 70 and they'd love the convenience of not having to drive or be dependent on others. Its all in the perspective.

In these cases automation is the savior, even if it took more people to maintain this automation. It would not have been possible just 5 years back.

[resy]

I follow the Non-Consumer Advocate, which has a facebook group.  This was just posted:

"Sigh. I was really digging Mister Money Mustache and was reading through the archives from the first post...until I got to the post where he says that he started making $41,000 at 22 right out of college and had zero student loan debt...and now I can't bring myself to read further. NCA is definitely more for the normal person and thank you for that (and no pretension)"

"He also claims to be retired but seems to basically flip houses, expensive houses. To each their own."

"I can't read his level of all-knowing pretension now that I know it comes from a place of such...I don't want to say privilege...maybe ease? Like I feel like his blog is now only useful to 19 year olds as an "hey don't spend like a dumbass or go to a college you can't afford" Like who are you to talk like you are so powerful and all-knowing when you've never actually had to worry about your cash flow?"

"He claims he made good decisions early on, but he had some good luck as well. A lot of financial success is luck...born in the US, not a third world country, born to educated, middle class parents instead of into poverty...much greater chance you will make it."

"Yep, he's totally privileged. Not his fault; he was just dealt a great hand and therefore can live the life he chooses (I wouldn't choose to retire at 30 anyway, myself, even if I could). I do wish these guys would acknowledge their privilege, though. I think he's got wisdom to share but isn't really able to be grounded enough to advise people who didn't get dealt such a great hand."

Anyway, the complainypants was really getting to me. Of course MMM had many gifts given to him, but to ignore the hard work and sacrifice is a way of saying "I can't do the same, he is privileged". I have noticed this group has a lot of women who are barely scraping by. But there's too much "Have you tried 'family cloths instead of toilet paper?" Instead of "How can I train for a better career?" Some principles of frugality are common in both groups, but the victim mentality is (thankfully) missing here.

I had never heard of non consumer advocate so intrigued I googled and landed on their site. Ummm...so first thing I see is a post for black friday telling you its the day to ditch your family and "shop till you drop"(yes, written close by to whay seems to be their motto of wear it out, use it up or do without or something of the like) then came a long list of promo codes.
I kept looking for the hidden joke but didn't find it, this was a real post. Didn't want to see anything else after that.

Um, that post is a joke. Read the promo codes: "THEBESTSAVINGSISMONEYNOTEVENSPENT"  "USEITUPWEARITUPMAKEITDOORDOWITHOUT"

Katy's site is awesome, but different than MMM. I like both. The Facebook group is sometimes great, but other times it's filled with a bunch of complainypants (like the above FB post). There's a subset on the FB group that I get the distinct vibe are forced to be frugal, and they aren't really nonconsumer by choice so they feel a grudge against those that are -- especially those that are financially better off than them and still choosing frugal/nonconsumer options. Overall, it's a pretty DIY minded group, but more DIYing decor, gifts, food and luxuries than construction/car type DIY.

Agree with all of this. I love Katy's blog and get some good things out of the Facebook site, but definitely get a complainypants/victim vibe from some posters. Like, if you suggest things like being open to moving to a lower COL area or working on ways to increase your income, you are treated like an insane person. If I revealed that I work for "Big Oil" and make six figures I feel like I would be run out of "town". LOL. But I guess that's why MMM resonates more with me, I'm a young person who hasn't had time to make a lot of big mistakes yet, and my biggest mistake (private undergrad --> $70k student loan debt) was largely ameliorated by landing a lucrative job out of school (which, yeah, totally had a large luck/privilege component).

Oh, and that one woman who kept commenting things like, "But MMM is so LUCKY to have all those DIY construction-type skills!!" ... WTF? Are you familiar with the meaning of the word "luck"? :)

dude, I'm glad I went back to check out the site again, it is pretty cool. And another plus? She and I live in the same city so even more relatable!
the only thing that I don't get is why she isn't biking...biking is pretty big here lol and the city is SO accessible to bikes.

[GuitarStv]

Not really heard on facebook, but a story told by my uncle at thanksgiving:

Neighbor of his calls out of the blue recently to ask how long my uncle's toilet tanks take to refill. My uncle has no idea. So the neighbor comes over to time them for comparison purposes. Apparently the neighbor's tanks take 60 seconds, and this is unacceptably slow.

Turns out my uncle's tanks take 60 seconds, too. This does not mollify the neighbor. He goes out and buys all new toilets, at a cost of $700 each, to cut the time down to 40 seconds.

Hrm.  60 seconds was an unreasonable time to wait for the tank to refill?

Maybe just schedule taco night a little less often?

[Simple Abundant Living]

I follow the Non-Consumer Advocate, which has a facebook group.  This was just posted:

"Sigh. I was really digging Mister Money Mustache and was reading through the archives from the first post...until I got to the post where he says that he started making $41,000 at 22 right out of college and had zero student loan debt...and now I can't bring myself to read further. NCA is definitely more for the normal person and thank you for that (and no pretension)"

"He also claims to be retired but seems to basically flip houses, expensive houses. To each their own."

"I can't read his level of all-knowing pretension now that I know it comes from a place of such...I don't want to say privilege...maybe ease? Like I feel like his blog is now only useful to 19 year olds as an "hey don't spend like a dumbass or go to a college you can't afford" Like who are you to talk like you are so powerful and all-knowing when you've never actually had to worry about your cash flow?"

"He claims he made good decisions early on, but he had some good luck as well. A lot of financial success is luck...born in the US, not a third world country, born to educated, middle class parents instead of into poverty...much greater chance you will make it."

"Yep, he's totally privileged. Not his fault; he was just dealt a great hand and therefore can live the life he chooses (I wouldn't choose to retire at 30 anyway, myself, even if I could). I do wish these guys would acknowledge their privilege, though. I think he's got wisdom to share but isn't really able to be grounded enough to advise people who didn't get dealt such a great hand."

Anyway, the complainypants was really getting to me. Of course MMM had many gifts given to him, but to ignore the hard work and sacrifice is a way of saying "I can't do the same, he is privileged". I have noticed this group has a lot of women who are barely scraping by. But there's too much "Have you tried 'family cloths instead of toilet paper?" Instead of "How can I train for a better career?" Some principles of frugality are common in both groups, but the victim mentality is (thankfully) missing here.

I had never heard of non consumer advocate so intrigued I googled and landed on their site. Ummm...so first thing I see is a post for black friday telling you its the day to ditch your family and "shop till you drop"(yes, written close by to whay seems to be their motto of wear it out, use it up or do without or something of the like) then came a long list of promo codes.
I kept looking for the hidden joke but didn't find it, this was a real post. Didn't want to see anything else after that.

Um, that post is a joke. Read the promo codes: "THEBESTSAVINGSISMONEYNOTEVENSPENT"  "USEITUPWEARITUPMAKEITDOORDOWITHOUT"

Katy's site is awesome, but different than MMM. I like both. The Facebook group is sometimes great, but other times it's filled with a bunch of complainypants (like the above FB post). There's a subset on the FB group that I get the distinct vibe are forced to be frugal, and they aren't really nonconsumer by choice so they feel a grudge against those that are -- especially those that are financially better off than them and still choosing frugal/nonconsumer options. Overall, it's a pretty DIY minded group, but more DIYing decor, gifts, food and luxuries than construction/car type DIY.

Agree with all of this. I love Katy's blog and get some good things out of the Facebook site, but definitely get a complainypants/victim vibe from some posters. Like, if you suggest things like being open to moving to a lower COL area or working on ways to increase your income, you are treated like an insane person. If I revealed that I work for "Big Oil" and make six figures I feel like I would be run out of "town". LOL. But I guess that's why MMM resonates more with me, I'm a young person who hasn't had time to make a lot of big mistakes yet, and my biggest mistake (private undergrad --> $70k student loan debt) was largely ameliorated by landing a lucrative job out of school (which, yeah, totally had a large luck/privilege component).

Oh, and that one woman who kept commenting things like, "But MMM is so LUCKY to have all those DIY construction-type skills!!" ... WTF? Are you familiar with the meaning of the word "luck"? :)

dude, I'm glad I went back to check out the site again, it is pretty cool. And another plus? She and I live in the same city so even more relatable!
the only thing that I don't get is why she isn't biking...biking is pretty big here lol and the city is SO accessible to bikes.

Yeah, I'm a fan of her blog and Portland seems like a great place to be a non-consumer! Join the FB group so there are some more balanced voices! ;)

[Scandium]

now that's tasty foam!  Printing articles and mailing them is priceless :)

I think I'm going to start a new thread to see if we can get more gems like that one.

My mom prints articles from websites, puts them in a mailing envelope, and sends them to me.  Just send me the link in an email Mom!  Ink, paper, postage, envelope, fuel, time, ahhhhhh!

My MIL visited her new grandson/us. A week later we get a "happy thanksgiving grandson" card in the mail. A week after that she came for Thanksgiving... And we got a "welcome baby" card 3 days before she arrived too. Oh the wasted stamps..
She also buys presents for her other grandkid fro valentine's day, easter and all other dumb holidays so I fear we'll get lots of crap from now on.

[Dr.Vibrissae]

Speaking of dumb baby food stuff, this competition was in my news feed a while ago
http://www.kiwifamilies.co.nz/competitions/rollie-eggmaster/

wtaf?  A whole benchtop appliance devoted to cooking a single egg?

I had to look this up.  It makes tubular eggs on a stick wtf?

[justajane]

Speaking of superfluous baby things, I came across this one:

http://www.skiphop.com/product/mobyfloatingbaththermometer.html

A cutsie whale thermometer to float in the water to get the optimum bath temperature for your precious baby. And here I thought all these years that my hand dipped in the water to test its temperature was sufficient!

[Eludia]

So - in sum: spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a vacation condo you visit twice per year PLUS thousands of dollars traveling there and THEN, when you arrive spend your time shopping at the Disney mall, going to the Disney movies, and bowling at the Disney  alley because it's a far more magical experience than any mall, theater or bowling alley you've got at home. amirite?

Yeah, but lets keep it real - Splitsville is pretty damn awesome.  So they have that going for them, which is nice.  :-)

[eyePod]

Oh, and that one woman who kept commenting things like, "But MMM is so LUCKY to have all those DIY construction-type skills!!" ... WTF? Are you familiar with the meaning of the word "luck"? :)

Actually that is is of the issues I have with his rhetoric sometimes. No one can go from zero to DIY everything in no time flat. MMM had a handy dad that showed him around power tools and car repairs. That have him the basic skills to evaluate the information online and in YouTube videos about, eg, fixing his car's brakes. He had intuition about how to do these things even if he needs to look up specifics.

My dad took the car to the mechanic and hates manual labor/tools/DIY. I took woodshop in middle school and loved it, but I've spent my whole life in apartments...Not much space to set up tools. I can sew, assemble IKEA furniture, paint a room, and disassemble a drain to clean it, but I wouldn't repair a major appliance or vehicle. Yet.

Basically, he's lucky to have been in a situation with the opportunity and resources to learn his DIY skills. That's not nothing.

And then there's the guy who had MORE DIY skills learned, more money, and free time, but squandered it. or did even better. or who the hell cares.

A - no one is saying that your starting point doesn't affect your ending point.
B - It's a damn spectrum for all of us. We all start different places, end up different places.
C - The point is to realize that this is within your control. You are the most important piece of the puzzle. Take action. If you don't, the blame still ends up on you, not your circumstance. The circumstance helps make things easier, but it's not the end all/be all.

[eyePod]

Yep, most of us can learn almost anything, and better yet, learn it for free. A year or two ago an acquaintance was begging for money on -- you guessed it -- Facebook to call a plumber because the trap beneath the bathroom sink had somehow got a hole in it. Now, I'm not super repair savvy, but I know this is one of those no-brainer plumbing fixes. I have two boys, I have removed that trap countless times to retrieve small toys or just clean it out. I've even replaced one. So, I told her the basic procedure, linked her to a youtube video, and told her she could do the whole repair for less than $10, depending on which pipe she picks out (PVC or chrome). Her response was along the lines of, "oh no, my dad says never mess with the plumbing yourself or you'll end up with an even bigger problem." Okaaaaaay. Personally, I'd prefer to take my chances on something simple than beg for money, but to each their own.

As for DIY skills, the hubs and I only had a few. Most I had learned from being absolutely broke with no other options than to just try. But, most of the big box hardware stores offer free tool classes. Habitat for humanity is a great way to learn skills just for volunteering on a build here and there. We know a couple that volunteered with habitat for a few years, and then took the skills they learned to build themselves a cabin. (They were not habitat recipients, just volunteers.) I learned to change my brake pads back in the day with the help of a Chilton's and Autozone (the internet wasn't quite as helpful for this sort of thing 17 years ago).

So sure, some people have the privilege of learning young, but all of us on this board have the privilege of unlimited free information and learning resources on our computers, so I think that pretty much washes out as "equal" in the long run.

See, this is the point of business--to outsource things you can't do yourself. I think the downside of mustachianism is that we all think we can and should become DIYers. So we do and spend our time fixing shit. But the downside is that good jobs are hard to find because most of our needs are being taken care of ourselves.

Money is simply a means to improve the quality of life. In a perfect world of money, there would be no mustachian sacrifices to be made. You would work, no doubt, but then you would use your money to do things you don't know how to do. Right now a lot of people don't have jobs because there isn't as much work. But we still shed skin--floors are just as dirty as they have always been and need cleaning. We still get sick, we just put off going to the doctor. We still eat, we just eat in. A lot of economic activity is BS "spreading the wealth" that ingrains spending habits with social habits, not necessarily the efficient allocation or conservation of resources (that would be not driving because gas prices are too high). Someone "working" at a restaurant really isn't doing anything you can't do at home but you pay them your "money" because eating out is a pleasurable affair where you can try out new things, socialize, and not have to worry about cooking.

If work wasn't looked down upon mustachianism would be stupid. It's only a good thing because A. the market is volatile B. saving is a good thing to an extent C. the option to quit working is a good thing and D. nobody here is bill gates. The more mustachian society gets, the more expensive plumbers are going to be. I don't think it's a bad thing to spend money on hiring a plumber if you have the money. I do think the mustachian ethos, by looking down on people who want to pay for a plumber, can make people take it too far and lose the bigger picture of why we have money, business, and society. i want to say "to each his own" but historically, in the great depression, that was not good, and it was the collective action of WWII that really brought people out of the depression.

so in conclusion, I think too much mustachianism can be unhealthy for society because so much of our economy is based on spending that in many ways *should* be considered a good thing. if we all depended on plumbers, the cost of plumbing services would go down inevitably, and we wouldn't be living lives thinking our only option for unclogging our drain is to spend our weekend fixing it. i think there's nothing wrong with thinking that that's a good thing but I also think that wanting to pay a plumber should not be looked down upon.

I'd argue that you don't understand the mustachian ideals. It's not that work is unhealthy. It's UNCONSCIOUS decisions that are unhealthy, whether that's spending, working, paying for someone to do X. All of these have tradeoffs, and you should try to understand them as best you can. Want to buy a house? Try to understand what it's going to cost you (time, money, repairs, etc.). It's not one cookie cutter "you need to bike everywhere." It's more of a try to figure out what you're paying by driving everywhere instead of biking and decide if that's worth it.

[Cinder]

so in conclusion, I think too much mustachianism can be unhealthy for society because so much of our economy is based on spending that in many ways *should* be considered a good thing. if we all depended on plumbers, the cost of plumbing services would go down inevitably, and we wouldn't be living lives thinking our only option for unclogging our drain is to spend our weekend fixing it. i think there's nothing wrong with thinking that that's a good thing but I also think that wanting to pay a plumber should not be looked down upon.

I'd argue that you don't understand the mustachian ideals. It's not that work is unhealthy. It's UNCONSCIOUS decisions that are unhealthy, whether that's spending, working, paying for someone to do X. All of these have tradeoffs, and you should try to understand them as best you can. Want to buy a house? Try to understand what it's going to cost you (time, money, repairs, etc.). It's not one cookie cutter "you need to bike everywhere." It's more of a try to figure out what you're paying by driving everywhere instead of biking and decide if that's worth it.

@eyePod very well said!

[resy]

I follow the Non-Consumer Advocate, which has a facebook group.  This was just posted:

"Sigh. I was really digging Mister Money Mustache and was reading through the archives from the first post...until I got to the post where he says that he started making $41,000 at 22 right out of college and had zero student loan debt...and now I can't bring myself to read further. NCA is definitely more for the normal person and thank you for that (and no pretension)"

"He also claims to be retired but seems to basically flip houses, expensive houses. To each their own."

"I can't read his level of all-knowing pretension now that I know it comes from a place of such...I don't want to say privilege...maybe ease? Like I feel like his blog is now only useful to 19 year olds as an "hey don't spend like a dumbass or go to a college you can't afford" Like who are you to talk like you are so powerful and all-knowing when you've never actually had to worry about your cash flow?"

"He claims he made good decisions early on, but he had some good luck as well. A lot of financial success is luck...born in the US, not a third world country, born to educated, middle class parents instead of into poverty...much greater chance you will make it."

"Yep, he's totally privileged. Not his fault; he was just dealt a great hand and therefore can live the life he chooses (I wouldn't choose to retire at 30 anyway, myself, even if I could). I do wish these guys would acknowledge their privilege, though. I think he's got wisdom to share but isn't really able to be grounded enough to advise people who didn't get dealt such a great hand."

Anyway, the complainypants was really getting to me. Of course MMM had many gifts given to him, but to ignore the hard work and sacrifice is a way of saying "I can't do the same, he is privileged". I have noticed this group has a lot of women who are barely scraping by. But there's too much "Have you tried 'family cloths instead of toilet paper?" Instead of "How can I train for a better career?" Some principles of frugality are common in both groups, but the victim mentality is (thankfully) missing here.

I had never heard of non consumer advocate so intrigued I googled and landed on their site. Ummm...so first thing I see is a post for black friday telling you its the day to ditch your family and "shop till you drop"(yes, written close by to whay seems to be their motto of wear it out, use it up or do without or something of the like) then came a long list of promo codes.
I kept looking for the hidden joke but didn't find it, this was a real post. Didn't want to see anything else after that.

Um, that post is a joke. Read the promo codes: "THEBESTSAVINGSISMONEYNOTEVENSPENT"  "USEITUPWEARITUPMAKEITDOORDOWITHOUT"

Katy's site is awesome, but different than MMM. I like both. The Facebook group is sometimes great, but other times it's filled with a bunch of complainypants (like the above FB post). There's a subset on the FB group that I get the distinct vibe are forced to be frugal, and they aren't really nonconsumer by choice so they feel a grudge against those that are -- especially those that are financially better off than them and still choosing frugal/nonconsumer options. Overall, it's a pretty DIY minded group, but more DIYing decor, gifts, food and luxuries than construction/car type DIY.

ahh I see lol a little confusing to a newcomer though-I'm sure I cant be the only person that doesn't look at promo codes intently. Will check out the site again

Sorry but you're the only person ever to think that was a real promo code. Ever. There's not even a link to an actual site to use it.

and your point is? You really felt you had to make that asshole remark that bad huh? Well you sound lovely.