Overheard on Facebook

[slugline]

Just read this on a post in one of the groups I am in on Facebook....the OP was asking what percentage of their income people put away into savings.  And I quote...

"I contribute a total of 15% (this includes a mandatory employee 8%, a mandatory employer 6% and a voluntary employee 1%). I have a good friend who is a financial advisor who says this is very ambitious for someone my age (29), and that normally he wouldn't recommend someone putting that much away unless they were closer to retirement and needing to catch up."

Uhh, really?  If your friend is truly a financial adviser, then they are a pretty crappy one if they wouldn't recommend putting 15% into your 401K...especially since it's really only 9% of your actual income and what sounds like a 6% match from your employer.

I like the idea that electing to contribute an additional 1% over what is mandatory is considered "very ambitious"! :)

[engineermom21]

You know, it's one thing to ask very little of young savers, but to actively dissuade an overachiever is downright shameful. As if there is a downside to not spending enough??? I hope you spoke up!

Oh, I did! It's crazy to me that people who are financial advisers always seem to offer the worst financial advice, at least in my experience.  I only know two people who work as financial advisers, granted, but one is hundreds of thousands in debt, has filed for bankruptcy once, and has talked about filing for bankruptcy a second time, and the other carries multiple credit card balances of $80K+, only paying the minimum each month, and leases a new car every other year.  How in the world they are qualified to be giving financial advice is beyond me!

[Papa Mustache]

They are going to be in Europe for 5 weeks and are PLANNING not doing stuff in the evening, because it conflicts with tv watching? My mind is blown.

Man, that makes me want to boycott TV entirely for a few months just so I can point out that I'm not like them...

One of my fond memories of living overseas was "unplugging" from the American pop-media/pop-culture machine for three years. Even today we don't have regular TV (we stream some). More time for other stuff and I feel like my mind is not quite as crowded as other folks' with TV memories. ;)

[Papa Mustache]

You know, it's one thing to ask very little of young savers, but to actively dissuade an overachiever is downright shameful. As if there is a downside to not spending enough??? I hope you spoke up!

Oh, I did! It's crazy to me that people who are financial advisers always seem to offer the worst financial advice, at least in my experience.  I only know two people who work as financial advisers, granted, but one is hundreds of thousands in debt, has filed for bankruptcy once, and has talked about filing for bankruptcy a second time, and the other carries multiple credit card balances of $80K+, only paying the minimum each month, and leases a new car every other year.  How in the world they are qualified to be giving financial advice is beyond me!

They are self-qualified. Sort of like the gov't allowing manufacturers to self-inspect their goods. ;)

I've met a couple of wannabe counselors. Both had some good ideas but their area of expertise was very narrowly defined b/c in other parts of their life, they were as much a mess as anyone else.

That's part of why I like this forum. All of you are discussing the big picture AND the detailed approach to a problem.

[dycker1978]

Found this story on my Face book.  I will just leave it here...

http://pix11.com/2016/01/15/powerball-reimbursement-fund-appears-on-gofundme-weve-exhausted-our-funds/

[pompera_firpa]

Calls wanting her to explain how to do even simple tasks using a computer. Its as if they have never heard of Google/Bing/DuckDuckGo/Yahoo/etc. Little or no ability to search for answers on their own.

This is a college educated professional?!?!?! We're curious how they have been able to accomplish the tasks they are already assigned without some of the skills they want help with.

The number of lawyers I've met who cannot figure out how to sort data in an Excel sheet is STAGGERING.

[dragoncar]

Calls wanting her to explain how to do even simple tasks using a computer. Its as if they have never heard of Google/Bing/DuckDuckGo/Yahoo/etc. Little or no ability to search for answers on their own.

This is a college educated professional?!?!?! We're curious how they have been able to accomplish the tasks they are already assigned without some of the skills they want help with.

The number of lawyers I've met who cannot figure out how to sort data in an Excel sheet is STAGGERING.

The problem is their heads are too full of law.  What you need to do is get them involved in some good spreadsheet litigation:

http://ipmall.info/hosted_resources/Markman/pdfFiles/2009.02.02_PRECISION_AUTOMATION_INC_LLC_v._TECHNICAL_SERVICES.pdf

[Kitsune]

Calls wanting her to explain how to do even simple tasks using a computer. Its as if they have never heard of Google/Bing/DuckDuckGo/Yahoo/etc. Little or no ability to search for answers on their own.

This is a college educated professional?!?!?! We're curious how they have been able to accomplish the tasks they are already assigned without some of the skills they want help with.

The number of lawyers I've met who cannot figure out how to sort data in an Excel sheet is STAGGERING.

I had to teach an accountant to add cells in Excel last week. Because she still uses a pad of paper and a pen to do her accounting. For two different companies. (And she's under 60; she has no excuse.)

[merula]

Calls wanting her to explain how to do even simple tasks using a computer. Its as if they have never heard of Google/Bing/DuckDuckGo/Yahoo/etc. Little or no ability to search for answers on their own.

This is a college educated professional?!?!?! We're curious how they have been able to accomplish the tasks they are already assigned without some of the skills they want help with.

The number of lawyers I've met who cannot figure out how to sort data in an Excel sheet is STAGGERING.

See, I don't have a problem with this. So there's one skill that's be good to have but not vital to your job that you can't master? Who among us doesn't have that situation? Me, I can never keep financial metrics straight (ROE, ROI, current ratio, etc.). It would help me in my job to not have to look them up every time, but it's not vital. I'm not a CFA.

And I think there's a world of difference between not knowing one thing and not being able/willing to learn anything.

[shelivesthedream]

Calls wanting her to explain how to do even simple tasks using a computer. Its as if they have never heard of Google/Bing/DuckDuckGo/Yahoo/etc. Little or no ability to search for answers on their own.

This is a college educated professional?!?!?! We're curious how they have been able to accomplish the tasks they are already assigned without some of the skills they want help with.

The number of lawyers I've met who cannot figure out how to sort data in an Excel sheet is STAGGERING.

See, I don't have a problem with this. So there's one skill that's be good to have but not vital to your job that you can't master? Who among us doesn't have that situation? Me, I can never keep financial metrics straight (ROE, ROI, current ratio, etc.). It would help me in my job to not have to look them up every time, but it's not vital. I'm not a CFA.

And I think there's a world of difference between not knowing one thing and not being able/willing to learn anything.

Not initially knowing, sure. But when you realise you want to know it, you Google it or ask someone else. Then you learn. Then, crucially, you REMEMBER. If you really can't remember you look up/ask again and WRITE IT DOWN PROPERLY.

I worked in an admin office with a really important centrally saved spreadsheet we all updated multiple times a day, notionally sorted by date. Some fucker (never worked out who it was) didn't know how to insert cells so just tacked on older dates at the bottom, messing up the order. It was staffed by some really lovely middle aged women who had each worked there for at least five years, but it wasn't until I arrived and said "Oh, this spreadsheet is out of order, shall I resort it?" that they realised you could do that. I explained how to do it every week for months. I even wrote it down, step by step, but they kept missing steps and wondering why it don't work. "No, you have to do ALL the steps, including number two. That's whyI wrote number two in there."

I liked that office apart from that (which also happened with printing and the shared email inboxes... They thoughtI was an IT genius becauseI saw a problem and Googled to see if there was a solution.)

[ShoulderThingThatGoesUp]

Calls wanting her to explain how to do even simple tasks using a computer. Its as if they have never heard of Google/Bing/DuckDuckGo/Yahoo/etc. Little or no ability to search for answers on their own.

This is a college educated professional?!?!?! We're curious how they have been able to accomplish the tasks they are already assigned without some of the skills they want help with.

The number of lawyers I've met who cannot figure out how to sort data in an Excel sheet is STAGGERING.

I had to teach an accountant to add cells in Excel last week. Because she still uses a pad of paper and a pen to do her accounting. For two different companies. (And she's under 60; she has no excuse.)

My wife is trying to transfer some responsibilities to a new employee. She works at a company whose substantial assets are advertising demographic data. The guy refuses to learn SQL, and when he did a bad job with a simple Excel file my wife had built to do some reporting, he said, "Well, Mrs. Shoulderthing has some code in here..."

She had IF() statements in some cells.

[maco]

Not initially knowing, sure. But when you realise you want to know it, you Google it or ask someone else. Then you learn. Then, crucially, you REMEMBER. If you really can't remember you look up/ask again and WRITE IT DOWN PROPERLY.

I was in a class on Unix Systems Administration once, where I was one of about 3 undergrads. Everyone else was a grad student. I remember at one point, one of those grad students asked a super basic question, like "how do I copy?" 6 or so weeks into the semester. The lecturer, annoyed at how many of these grad students weren't taking the class seriously, went over, opened the cover on the student's notebook, and jabbed his finger into the page, saying "Right there! CP! You wrote it down the first day of class!" Later, as a senior in undergrad, he asked me to tutor one of that year's grad students. I don't think my college held grad students to the same bar as undergrads. (He said grad students are dropped if they get more than a couple Cs, so a lot of teachers won't give out Cs and Ds like he will)

[ender]

Not initially knowing, sure. But when you realise you want to know it, you Google it or ask someone else. Then you learn. Then, crucially, you REMEMBER. If you really can't remember you look up/ask again and WRITE IT DOWN PROPERLY.

I was in a class on Unix Systems Administration once, where I was one of about 3 undergrads. Everyone else was a grad student. I remember at one point, one of those grad students asked a super basic question, like "how do I copy?" 6 or so weeks into the semester. The lecturer, annoyed at how many of these grad students weren't taking the class seriously, went over, opened the cover on the student's notebook, and jabbed his finger into the page, saying "Right there! CP! You wrote it down the first day of class!" Later, as a senior in undergrad, he asked me to tutor one of that year's grad students. I don't think my college held grad students to the same bar as undergrads. (He said grad students are dropped if they get more than a couple Cs, so a lot of teachers won't give out Cs and Ds like he will)

This matches my grad experience, it's a lot easier to get an A/B than in undergrad.

I had to keep a 3.0 to keep my RA.

[Prairie Gal]

Calls wanting her to explain how to do even simple tasks using a computer. Its as if they have never heard of Google/Bing/DuckDuckGo/Yahoo/etc. Little or no ability to search for answers on their own.

This is a college educated professional?!?!?! We're curious how they have been able to accomplish the tasks they are already assigned without some of the skills they want help with.

The number of lawyers I've met who cannot figure out how to sort data in an Excel sheet is STAGGERING.

I had to teach an accountant to add cells in Excel last week. Because she still uses a pad of paper and a pen to do her accounting. For two different companies. (And she's under 60; she has no excuse.)

We have a chartered accountant in our office that still does investment spreadsheets on paper. He is under 60, but just barely. You have to remember that not all of us grew up with computers. I went back to school as an adult to learn them (when things were still on DOS) because I was interested, but he obviously had a way of doing things that worked for him, so was not interested.

[dragoncar]

Calls wanting her to explain how to do even simple tasks using a computer. Its as if they have never heard of Google/Bing/DuckDuckGo/Yahoo/etc. Little or no ability to search for answers on their own.

This is a college educated professional?!?!?! We're curious how they have been able to accomplish the tasks they are already assigned without some of the skills they want help with.

The number of lawyers I've met who cannot figure out how to sort data in an Excel sheet is STAGGERING.

See, I don't have a problem with this. So there's one skill that's be good to have but not vital to your job that you can't master? Who among us doesn't have that situation? Me, I can never keep financial metrics straight (ROE, ROI, current ratio, etc.). It would help me in my job to not have to look them up every time, but it's not vital. I'm not a CFA.

And I think there's a world of difference between not knowing one thing and not being able/willing to learn anything.

Not initially knowing, sure. But when you realise you want to know it, you Google it or ask someone else. Then you learn. Then, crucially, you REMEMBER. If you really can't remember you look up/ask again and WRITE IT DOWN PROPERLY.

I worked in an admin office with a really important centrally saved spreadsheet we all updated multiple times a day, notionally sorted by date. Some fucker (never worked out who it was) didn't know how to insert cells so just tacked on older dates at the bottom, messing up the order. It was staffed by some really lovely middle aged women who had each worked there for at least five years, but it wasn't until I arrived and said "Oh, this spreadsheet is out of order, shall I resort it?" that they realised you could do that. I explained how to do it every week for months. I even wrote it down, step by step, but they kept missing steps and wondering why it don't work. "No, you have to do ALL the steps, including number two. That's whyI wrote number two in there."

I liked that office apart from that (which also happened with printing and the shared email inboxes... They thoughtI was an IT genius becauseI saw a problem and Googled to see if there was a solution.)

If manually sorting spreadsheets gave me enough workload to justify my position (multiple women work on this one spreadsheet?), I'd probably "forget" to learn auto-sorting too.

[Joggernot]

Calls wanting her to explain how to do even simple tasks using a computer. Its as if they have never heard of Google/Bing/DuckDuckGo/Yahoo/etc. Little or no ability to search for answers on their own.

This is a college educated professional?!?!?! We're curious how they have been able to accomplish the tasks they are already assigned without some of the skills they want help with.

The number of lawyers I've met who cannot figure out how to sort data in an Excel sheet is STAGGERING.

I had to teach an accountant to add cells in Excel last week. Because she still uses a pad of paper and a pen to do her accounting. For two different companies. (And she's under 60; she has no excuse.)

We have a chartered accountant in our office that still does investment spreadsheets on paper. He is under 60, but just barely. You have to remember that not all of us grew up with computers. I went back to school as an adult to learn them (when things were still on DOS) because I was interested, but he obviously had a way of doing things that worked for him, so was not interested.

Glad to hear someone else did this.  No computers when I was in college; slide rules ruled; and a circular slide rule was extreme.  My senior year the college got a CDC (?) 64k memory, transistor, computer that read paper tape made from cards (language was Sicom, anyone remember that one?).  Got my first home computer in 1982.  Went back and got computer science/internet certificates in 2000 along with MS certificates applicable at that time.  Never regretted the time spent learning detailed computer operation, languages, program use, a little basic and SQL, etc. but never transitioned to IT.  Now, in retirement, all I use are spreadsheets and word processors along with wandering around on the web.

[mm1970]

Calls wanting her to explain how to do even simple tasks using a computer. Its as if they have never heard of Google/Bing/DuckDuckGo/Yahoo/etc. Little or no ability to search for answers on their own.

This is a college educated professional?!?!?! We're curious how they have been able to accomplish the tasks they are already assigned without some of the skills they want help with.

The number of lawyers I've met who cannot figure out how to sort data in an Excel sheet is STAGGERING.

I had to teach an accountant to add cells in Excel last week. Because she still uses a pad of paper and a pen to do her accounting. For two different companies. (And she's under 60; she has no excuse.)

My wife is trying to transfer some responsibilities to a new employee. She works at a company whose substantial assets are advertising demographic data. The guy refuses to learn SQL, and when he did a bad job with a simple Excel file my wife had built to do some reporting, he said, "Well, Mrs. Shoulderthing has some code in here..."

She had IF() statements in some cells.

I feel a little better about my ability (or not) to code. 

I can even do very small SQL statements.

[shelivesthedream]

Calls wanting her to explain how to do even simple tasks using a computer. Its as if they have never heard of Google/Bing/DuckDuckGo/Yahoo/etc. Little or no ability to search for answers on their own.

This is a college educated professional?!?!?! We're curious how they have been able to accomplish the tasks they are already assigned without some of the skills they want help with.

The number of lawyers I've met who cannot figure out how to sort data in an Excel sheet is STAGGERING.

See, I don't have a problem with this. So there's one skill that's be good to have but not vital to your job that you can't master? Who among us doesn't have that situation? Me, I can never keep financial metrics straight (ROE, ROI, current ratio, etc.). It would help me in my job to not have to look them up every time, but it's not vital. I'm not a CFA.

And I think there's a world of difference between not knowing one thing and not being able/willing to learn anything.

Not initially knowing, sure. But when you realise you want to know it, you Google it or ask someone else. Then you learn. Then, crucially, you REMEMBER. If you really can't remember you look up/ask again and WRITE IT DOWN PROPERLY.

I worked in an admin office with a really important centrally saved spreadsheet we all updated multiple times a day, notionally sorted by date. Some fucker (never worked out who it was) didn't know how to insert cells so just tacked on older dates at the bottom, messing up the order. It was staffed by some really lovely middle aged women who had each worked there for at least five years, but it wasn't until I arrived and said "Oh, this spreadsheet is out of order, shall I resort it?" that they realised you could do that. I explained how to do it every week for months. I even wrote it down, step by step, but they kept missing steps and wondering why it don't work. "No, you have to do ALL the steps, including number two. That's whyI wrote number two in there."

I liked that office apart from that (which also happened with printing and the shared email inboxes... They thoughtI was an IT genius becauseI saw a problem and Googled to see if there was a solution.)

If manually sorting spreadsheets gave me enough workload to justify my position (multiple women work on this one spreadsheet?), I'd probably "forget" to learn auto-sorting too.

Not sure where you got that idea. The spreadsheet was our central storage for basic client information in date order, because we worked on things in the order that they came to us through various streams. Adding new client information out of order was therefore really bad because clients would get "promoted" above others by accident. My "magic sorting trick" meant that we could actually do our jobs properly. (Just remembered also the time that one of them asked me "How did you get so good at Excel? What course do you go on?" I think my answer was "I didn't go on a course, I'm just under 25." Thankfully she laughed!)

[Kitsune]

Calls wanting her to explain how to do even simple tasks using a computer. Its as if they have never heard of Google/Bing/DuckDuckGo/Yahoo/etc. Little or no ability to search for answers on their own.

This is a college educated professional?!?!?! We're curious how they have been able to accomplish the tasks they are already assigned without some of the skills they want help with.

The number of lawyers I've met who cannot figure out how to sort data in an Excel sheet is STAGGERING.

I had to teach an accountant to add cells in Excel last week. Because she still uses a pad of paper and a pen to do her accounting. For two different companies. (And she's under 60; she has no excuse.)

We have a chartered accountant in our office that still does investment spreadsheets on paper. He is under 60, but just barely. You have to remember that not all of us grew up with computers. I went back to school as an adult to learn them (when things were still on DOS) because I was interested, but he obviously had a way of doing things that worked for him, so was not interested.

If you can do the work accurately, and get the results needed, and find the additional information quickly when your boss needs it? I don't care if you're doing the work by divining the stars, as long as it gets done.

If finding the source of a 10K mistake takes 3+ days (I say + because in the end I found a way to get the data in excel out of the database she uses and found the problem in half an hour, so she didn't actually solve the issue...) because you have to re-read sheets and sheets of manual calculations, then you are having issues doing your job, and your lack of knowledge becomes my issue.

[Papa Mustache]

Calls wanting her to explain how to do even simple tasks using a computer. Its as if they have never heard of Google/Bing/DuckDuckGo/Yahoo/etc. Little or no ability to search for answers on their own.

This is a college educated professional?!?!?! We're curious how they have been able to accomplish the tasks they are already assigned without some of the skills they want help with.

The number of lawyers I've met who cannot figure out how to sort data in an Excel sheet is STAGGERING.

I had to teach an accountant to add cells in Excel last week. Because she still uses a pad of paper and a pen to do her accounting. For two different companies. (And she's under 60; she has no excuse.)

We have a chartered accountant in our office that still does investment spreadsheets on paper. He is under 60, but just barely. You have to remember that not all of us grew up with computers. I went back to school as an adult to learn them (when things were still on DOS) because I was interested, but he obviously had a way of doing things that worked for him, so was not interested.

The DW's coworker I was rattling about was trying to get a promotion. Coworker was likely trying to buffalo their way into a position beyond their abilities - wants the salary but won't do the homework necessary to get the new job.

Basically if the new position requires building Powerpoint presentations and spreadsheets and you don't want to do the work to learn how to do those tasks... Who knows exactly what is going on in their head...

[Ashyukun]

Not initially knowing, sure. But when you realise you want to know it, you Google it or ask someone else. Then you learn. Then, crucially, you REMEMBER. If you really can't remember you look up/ask again and WRITE IT DOWN PROPERLY.

I worked in an admin office with a really important centrally saved spreadsheet we all updated multiple times a day, notionally sorted by date. Some fucker (never worked out who it was) didn't know how to insert cells so just tacked on older dates at the bottom, messing up the order. It was staffed by some really lovely middle aged women who had each worked there for at least five years, but it wasn't until I arrived and said "Oh, this spreadsheet is out of order, shall I resort it?" that they realised you could do that. I explained how to do it every week for months. I even wrote it down, step by step, but they kept missing steps and wondering why it don't work. "No, you have to do ALL the steps, including number two. That's whyI wrote number two in there."

I liked that office apart from that (which also happened with printing and the shared email inboxes... They thoughtI was an IT genius becauseI saw a problem and Googled to see if there was a solution.)

If manually sorting spreadsheets gave me enough workload to justify my position (multiple women work on this one spreadsheet?), I'd probably "forget" to learn auto-sorting too.

Not sure where you got that idea. The spreadsheet was our central storage for basic client information in date order, because we worked on things in the order that they came to us through various streams. Adding new client information out of order was therefore really bad because clients would get "promoted" above others by accident. My "magic sorting trick" meant that we could actually do our jobs properly. (Just remembered also the time that one of them asked me "How did you get so good at Excel? What course do you go on?" I think my answer was "I didn't go on a course, I'm just under 25." Thankfully she laughed!)

It's not wholly generational either... SWMBO is in her early 30's and been around computers to some extent all of her life and is quite intelligent but just doesn't wrap her head around computers and software/apps very well. Some people you can explain to how to do something in Excel or on a computer multiple times or even write down how to do it and they'll still have trouble fully internalizing it; others can Google it, ask once, or fiddle around with whatever it is for a few minutes and find out how to do it and be set for life (or at least as long as they need to do it every month or so).

[9-Volt]

Our lead salesmen (over 60), still uses the "Hunt and peck" method of typing.

FYI, we're a tech company. :/

[jinga nation]

Calls wanting her to explain how to do even simple tasks using a computer. Its as if they have never heard of Google/Bing/DuckDuckGo/Yahoo/etc. Little or no ability to search for answers on their own.

This is a college educated professional?!?!?! We're curious how they have been able to accomplish the tasks they are already assigned without some of the skills they want help with.

The number of lawyers I've met who cannot figure out how to sort data in an Excel sheet is STAGGERING.

See, I don't have a problem with this. So there's one skill that's be good to have but not vital to your job that you can't master? Who among us doesn't have that situation? Me, I can never keep financial metrics straight (ROE, ROI, current ratio, etc.). It would help me in my job to not have to look them up every time, but it's not vital. I'm not a CFA.

And I think there's a world of difference between not knowing one thing and not being able/willing to learn anything.

Not initially knowing, sure. But when you realise you want to know it, you Google it or ask someone else. Then you learn. Then, crucially, you REMEMBER. If you really can't remember you look up/ask again and WRITE IT DOWN PROPERLY.

<snip>

"But there's no Excel help on Lexis-Nexis (or another legal database)."
"I thought Google was for using Facebook and Amazon and Twitter and all them social networking new-fangled thingamajiggies."

[Dollar Slice]

A friend posted this today... it's pretty awesome. http://thebillfold.com/a-story-of-a-fuck-off-fund-648401263659#.kb7kvrcvp

[onlykelsey]

A friend posted this today... it's pretty awesome. http://thebillfold.com/a-story-of-a-fuck-off-fund-648401263659#.kb7kvrcvp

That's a very concrete way to explain this concept to people, especially women under 30.  posting it myself!

[Taran Wanderer]

That was fantastic.

[coin]

A friend posted this today... it's pretty awesome. http://thebillfold.com/a-story-of-a-fuck-off-fund-648401263659#.kb7kvrcvp

This is awesome. I would share this, but I think too many on my friends list would take it as me criticising them specifically or would come back with excuses. :-(

I had a friend on Facebook who I had to filter out because it was always "woo, payday, it's shopping o'clock" one week, then the next would be her asking for someone to buy her lunch.

[nnls]

A friend posted this today... it's pretty awesome. http://thebillfold.com/a-story-of-a-fuck-off-fund-648401263659#.kb7kvrcvp

yeah I really liked that article

[Jenni]

The DW's coworker I was rattling about was trying to get a promotion. Coworker was likely trying to buffalo their way into a position beyond their abilities - wants the salary but won't do the homework necessary to get the new job.

Basically if the new position requires building Powerpoint presentations and spreadsheets and you don't want to do the work to learn how to do those tasks... Who knows exactly what is going on in their head...

Yeah, I'm cool with helping a co-worker by Googling something or watching a YouTube video & then sharing/showing how to do it. I'm always honest about that. But I'm not going to do it for people over and over. People who are unwilling to learn new things piss me off.

[SwordGuy]

But I'm not going to do it for people over and over. People who are unwilling to learn new things piss me off.

My wife and I used to own a small software publishing business.   I would train people how to use our business software.

That's when I learned that some people do not have a successful learning strategy.  To them, learning how to do something is this:

"Write down exactly what has to be done."

The idea is that they follow those instructions like a recipe.

The problem with that strategy is that some tasks simply are not like that.   You have to actually understand what you are trying to accomplish and then muddle your way to success, making course corrections as you go.   There is no recipe.   There are just (if you are lucky!) guiding principles that require thoughtful analysis to apply.

Since they apparently have zero concept of this, they keep trying to write down the exact steps.   And it will never work for the wrong kind of tasks.

I'll try explaining this to them when I encounter it, but if they aren't receptive, I don't waste my time afterwards.

[LeRainDrop]

My wife and I used to own a small software publishing business.   I would train people how to use our business software.

That's when I learned that some people do not have a successful learning strategy.  To them, learning how to do something is this:

"Write down exactly what has to be done."

The idea is that they follow those instructions like a recipe.

The problem with that strategy is that some tasks simply are not like that.   You have to actually understand what you are trying to accomplish and then muddle your way to success, making course corrections as you go.   There is no recipe.   There are just (if you are lucky!) guiding principles that require thoughtful analysis to apply.

Since they apparently have zero concept of this, they keep trying to write down the exact steps.   And it will never work for the wrong kind of tasks.

I'll try explaining this to them when I encounter it, but if they aren't receptive, I don't waste my time afterwards.

OMG, you are spot on.  Rather than truly understand the principles so that they can apply them to get around roadblocks, they are just following a recipe and then can't get past the roadblocks!

[RetiredAt63]

Partly it is meta-learning - they are not doing it.  Once you are on your 4th different word processing program and 3rd different spreadsheet, you have the concept of what a word-processing or spreadsheet program should be able to do, and you then figure out how you will make this one do what you want.   They have not yet learned who is boss - they should be, but aren't.

My wife and I used to own a small software publishing business.   I would train people how to use our business software.

That's when I learned that some people do not have a successful learning strategy.  To them, learning how to do something is this:

"Write down exactly what has to be done."

The idea is that they follow those instructions like a recipe.

The problem with that strategy is that some tasks simply are not like that.   You have to actually understand what you are trying to accomplish and then muddle your way to success, making course corrections as you go.   There is no recipe.   There are just (if you are lucky!) guiding principles that require thoughtful analysis to apply.

Since they apparently have zero concept of this, they keep trying to write down the exact steps.   And it will never work for the wrong kind of tasks.

I'll try explaining this to them when I encounter it, but if they aren't receptive, I don't waste my time afterwards.

OMG, you are spot on.  Rather than truly understand the principles so that they can apply them to get around roadblocks, they are just following a recipe and then can't get past the roadblocks!

[Psychstache]

My wife and I used to own a small software publishing business.   I would train people how to use our business software.

That's when I learned that some people do not have a successful learning strategy.  To them, learning how to do something is this:

"Write down exactly what has to be done."

The idea is that they follow those instructions like a recipe.

The problem with that strategy is that some tasks simply are not like that.   You have to actually understand what you are trying to accomplish and then muddle your way to success, making course corrections as you go.   There is no recipe.   There are just (if you are lucky!) guiding principles that require thoughtful analysis to apply.

Since they apparently have zero concept of this, they keep trying to write down the exact steps.   And it will never work for the wrong kind of tasks.

I'll try explaining this to them when I encounter it, but if they aren't receptive, I don't waste my time afterwards.

OMG, you are spot on.  Rather than truly understand the principles so that they can apply them to get around roadblocks, they are just following a recipe and then can't get past the roadblocks!

I have this posted in my cube for these kinds of people.

[shelivesthedream]

I have this posted in my cube for these kinds of people.

THIS. THIS. THIS. If I thought I could get away with that without upsetting anyone, I would definitely do that too. Might just save the image for the future, though...

[LeRainDrop]

I have this posted in my cube for these kinds of people.

THIS. THIS. THIS. If I thought I could get away with that without upsetting anyone, I would definitely do that too. Might just save the image for the future, though...

LOL!  I love it!

[randymarsh]

That's hanging above my monitor at work as well!

[Rural]

Had that on the bulletin board outside my office for quite a while.

[nnls]

Seen on fb this morning

Needing to borrow $25000 for a car! What are the best banks/finance companies to go with?

There have been about 20 comments with most people advising her not to get a loan and just buy a cheaper car as loans end up making the car cost a lot more in the long run, but she is insistent that she NEEDS a $25k car.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

But I'm not going to do it for people over and over. People who are unwilling to learn new things piss me off.

My wife and I used to own a small software publishing business.   I would train people how to use our business software.

That's when I learned that some people do not have a successful learning strategy.  To them, learning how to do something is this:

"Write down exactly what has to be done."

The idea is that they follow those instructions like a recipe.

The problem with that strategy is that some tasks simply are not like that.   You have to actually understand what you are trying to accomplish and then muddle your way to success, making course corrections as you go.   There is no recipe.   There are just (if you are lucky!) guiding principles that require thoughtful analysis to apply.

Since they apparently have zero concept of this, they keep trying to write down the exact steps.   And it will never work for the wrong kind of tasks.

I'll try explaining this to them when I encounter it, but if they aren't receptive, I don't waste my time afterwards.

You have described the dominant learning process of military and government employees. Unless every possible case is documented in advance, they reject your product as being "too complicated" or "inadequately documented". Meta-learning just doesn't occur. Training programs are supposed to consist of cycling through all the possible cases; unfortunately the employees in question don't retain the information and are incapable of actually doing the work unless there's a very simple step-by-step process.

[Papa Mustache]

Partly it is meta-learning - they are not doing it.  Once you are on your 4th different word processing program and 3rd different spreadsheet, you have the concept of what a word-processing or spreadsheet program should be able to do, and you then figure out how you will make this one do what you want.   They have not yet learned who is boss - they should be, but aren't.

My wife and I used to own a small software publishing business.   I would train people how to use our business software.

That's when I learned that some people do not have a successful learning strategy.  To them, learning how to do something is this:

"Write down exactly what has to be done."

The idea is that they follow those instructions like a recipe.

The problem with that strategy is that some tasks simply are not like that.   You have to actually understand what you are trying to accomplish and then muddle your way to success, making course corrections as you go.   There is no recipe.   There are just (if you are lucky!) guiding principles that require thoughtful analysis to apply.

Since they apparently have zero concept of this, they keep trying to write down the exact steps.   And it will never work for the wrong kind of tasks.

I'll try explaining this to them when I encounter it, but if they aren't receptive, I don't waste my time afterwards.

OMG, you are spot on.  Rather than truly understand the principles so that they can apply them to get around roadblocks, they are just following a recipe and then can't get past the roadblocks!

THIS! This is the problem I have when I'm helping people adapt to using (Mint) Linux or a different CAD program. The differences are not that great.

There is a ton of open-source software out there now that anyone can use to start/run a business, get them through college or whatever a person can dream up. Obviously software = tools.

[chouchouu]

I'm on a mums group on Facebook. Some lady was trying to figure out where to donate all the excess stationary her kids had accumulated. Someone replied that going forward she should only buy the high quality colouring pencils at 3/4 dollars EACH. Because they last longer apparently. Never mind that the lady has enough colouring pencils to supply a whole class room. I replied that I bought entire packs of good quality made in Germany pencils for under $4 a pack. I was told these aren't good quality enough and that the $4 for each pencil is well worth it. I didn't even know they made colouring pencils for kids that cost $4 each!

[TheGrimSqueaker]

I'm on a mums group on Facebook. Some lady was trying to figure out where to donate all the excess stationary her kids had accumulated. Someone replied that going forward she should only buy the high quality colouring pencils at 3/4 dollars EACH. Because they last longer apparently. Never mind that the lady has enough colouring pencils to supply a whole class room. I replied that I bought entire packs of good quality made in Germany pencils for under $4 a pack. I was told these aren't good quality enough and that the $4 for each pencil is well worth it. I didn't even know they made colouring pencils for kids that cost $4 each!

They're just going to be eaten, either by the pencil sharpener or by the child. Maybe the $4 ones have a lower toxin content.

[chouchouu]

I'm on a mums group on Facebook. Some lady was trying to figure out where to donate all the excess stationary her kids had accumulated. Someone replied that going forward she should only buy the high quality colouring pencils at 3/4 dollars EACH. Because they last longer apparently. Never mind that the lady has enough colouring pencils to supply a whole class room. I replied that I bought entire packs of good quality made in Germany pencils for under $4 a pack. I was told these aren't good quality enough and that the $4 for each pencil is well worth it. I didn't even know they made colouring pencils for kids that cost $4 each!

They're just going to be eaten, either by the pencil sharpener or by the child. Maybe the $4 ones have a lower toxin content.

I actually couldn't find these magical colouring in pencils even though I searched the store she mentioned. There were only adult pencils for watercolours and that kind of stuff. From the same brand that sells the $4 kind, funnily enough. I think some people just look for excuses to waste money.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

I'm on a mums group on Facebook. Some lady was trying to figure out where to donate all the excess stationary her kids had accumulated. Someone replied that going forward she should only buy the high quality colouring pencils at 3/4 dollars EACH. Because they last longer apparently. Never mind that the lady has enough colouring pencils to supply a whole class room. I replied that I bought entire packs of good quality made in Germany pencils for under $4 a pack. I was told these aren't good quality enough and that the $4 for each pencil is well worth it. I didn't even know they made colouring pencils for kids that cost $4 each!

They're just going to be eaten, either by the pencil sharpener or by the child. Maybe the $4 ones have a lower toxin content.

I actually couldn't find these magical colouring in pencils even though I searched the store she mentioned. There were only adult pencils for watercolours and that kind of stuff. From the same brand that sells the $4 kind, funnily enough. I think some people just look for excuses to waste money.

If I find one of those adult coloring books that have expletives in it, I predict that I will totally waste money on it, and on whatever pencils are required to adequately fill in little floral designs around phrases that would make Samuel L. Jackson blush.

[Kitsune]

I'm on a mums group on Facebook. Some lady was trying to figure out where to donate all the excess stationary her kids had accumulated. Someone replied that going forward she should only buy the high quality colouring pencils at 3/4 dollars EACH. Because they last longer apparently. Never mind that the lady has enough colouring pencils to supply a whole class room. I replied that I bought entire packs of good quality made in Germany pencils for under $4 a pack. I was told these aren't good quality enough and that the $4 for each pencil is well worth it. I didn't even know they made colouring pencils for kids that cost $4 each!

They're just going to be eaten, either by the pencil sharpener or by the child. Maybe the $4 ones have a lower toxin content.

I actually couldn't find these magical colouring in pencils even though I searched the store she mentioned. There were only adult pencils for watercolours and that kind of stuff. From the same brand that sells the $4 kind, funnily enough. I think some people just look for excuses to waste money.

If I find one of those adult coloring books that have expletives in it, I predict that I will totally waste money on it, and on whatever pencils are required to adequately fill in little floral designs around phrases that would make Samuel L. Jackson blush.

I am part of the way through embroidering a gorgeous floral motif around the words "go fuck yourself", because that's the kind of thing my sister would like on a pillow. (Embroidery thread is also cheaper than pencils...)

[chouchouu]

I'm on a mums group on Facebook. Some lady was trying to figure out where to donate all the excess stationary her kids had accumulated. Someone replied that going forward she should only buy the high quality colouring pencils at 3/4 dollars EACH. Because they last longer apparently. Never mind that the lady has enough colouring pencils to supply a whole class room. I replied that I bought entire packs of good quality made in Germany pencils for under $4 a pack. I was told these aren't good quality enough and that the $4 for each pencil is well worth it. I didn't even know they made colouring pencils for kids that cost $4 each!

They're just going to be eaten, either by the pencil sharpener or by the child. Maybe the $4 ones have a lower toxin content.

I actually couldn't find these magical colouring in pencils even though I searched the store she mentioned. There were only adult pencils for watercolours and that kind of stuff. From the same brand that sells the $4 kind, funnily enough. I think some people just look for excuses to waste money.

If I find one of those adult coloring books that have expletives in it, I predict that I will totally waste money on it, and on whatever pencils are required to adequately fill in little floral designs around phrases that would make Samuel L. Jackson blush.

I am part of the way through embroidering a gorgeous floral motif around the words "go fuck yourself", because that's the kind of thing my sister would like on a pillow. (Embroidery thread is also cheaper than pencils...)

Lmao. 日本人ですか?

[Kitsune]

I'm on a mums group on Facebook. Some lady was trying to figure out where to donate all the excess stationary her kids had accumulated. Someone replied that going forward she should only buy the high quality colouring pencils at 3/4 dollars EACH. Because they last longer apparently. Never mind that the lady has enough colouring pencils to supply a whole class room. I replied that I bought entire packs of good quality made in Germany pencils for under $4 a pack. I was told these aren't good quality enough and that the $4 for each pencil is well worth it. I didn't even know they made colouring pencils for kids that cost $4 each!

They're just going to be eaten, either by the pencil sharpener or by the child. Maybe the $4 ones have a lower toxin content.

I actually couldn't find these magical colouring in pencils even though I searched the store she mentioned. There were only adult pencils for watercolours and that kind of stuff. From the same brand that sells the $4 kind, funnily enough. I think some people just look for excuses to waste money.

If I find one of those adult coloring books that have expletives in it, I predict that I will totally waste money on it, and on whatever pencils are required to adequately fill in little floral designs around phrases that would make Samuel L. Jackson blush.

I am part of the way through embroidering a gorgeous floral motif around the words "go fuck yourself", because that's the kind of thing my sister would like on a pillow. (Embroidery thread is also cheaper than pencils...)

Lmao. 日本人ですか?

Assuming Google Translate is right, your answer is no. ;)

[MgoSam]

Anyone ever get jealous of things they see on FB?

I need to stop checking it so often, because lately I have found myself comparing things to what other people list...which I realize is stupid because oftentimes they are only the highlight of someone's day/life. Also even if they are completely blissful and everything is perfect, I realize that I should be happy for their happiness/success, instead of using it to criticize myself.

I don't know if anyone else ever feels this way.

[shelivesthedream]

Anyone ever get jealous of things they see on FB?

I need to stop checking it so often, because lately I have found myself comparing things to what other people list...which I realize is stupid because oftentimes they are only the highlight of someone's day/life. Also even if they are completely blissful and everything is perfect, I realize that I should be happy for their happiness/success, instead of using it to criticize myself.

I don't know if anyone else ever feels this way.

Yes. Literally everyone else ever. Social-media-induced inadequacy is a well-known phenomenon.

[dragoncar]

Anyone ever get jealous of things they see on FB?

I need to stop checking it so often, because lately I have found myself comparing things to what other people list...which I realize is stupid because oftentimes they are only the highlight of someone's day/life. Also even if they are completely blissful and everything is perfect, I realize that I should be happy for their happiness/success, instead of using it to criticize myself.

I don't know if anyone else ever feels this way.

No, I feel bad for everybody.  Just got a new job?  Couldn't hack it at the old job.  Just got a new car?  Will never retire, and possibly small penis depending on the car.   Went to a fancy restaurant for your birthday?  Compensating for a loveless marriage.

I'm a really good friend