Overheard on Facebook

[BDWW]

My Facebook is being overrun today after TfL (Transport for London) have revoked the licence of Uber to operate in the city.

I'm thoroughly confused. How are these non-millionaires justifying the usage of a personal chauffeur service, particularly given the exceptionally robust, cost-effective 24-hour public transport system we have?

I've never used Uber in my life, but I still think it's horse $hit banning it.

[penguintroopers]

My Facebook is being overrun today after TfL (Transport for London) have revoked the licence of Uber to operate in the city.

I'm thoroughly confused. How are these non-millionaires justifying the usage of a personal chauffeur service, particularly given the exceptionally robust, cost-effective 24-hour public transport system we have?

I would say because of the cost effectiveness of having one car per household and sometimes buses don't always run where you need to go, or its just more time efficient (10 minute $8 uber ride vs 1 hour $2 bus ride... my time has value too), and then I remember this is friggin' London with one of the best transportation systems in the world (vs. my crappy-but-somehow-barely-functional American version), and then I place my palm to my face and die a little inside.

[jinga nation]

My Facebook is being overrun today after TfL (Transport for London) have revoked the licence of Uber to operate in the city.

I'm thoroughly confused. How are these non-millionaires justifying the usage of a personal chauffeur service, particularly given the exceptionally robust, cost-effective 24-hour public transport system we have?

I would say because of the cost effectiveness of having one car per household and sometimes buses don't always run where you need to go, or its just more time efficient (10 minute $8 uber ride vs 1 hour $2 bus ride... my time has value too), and then I remember this is friggin' London with one of the best transportation systems in the world (vs. my crappy-but-somehow-barely-functional American version), and then I place my palm to my face and die a little inside.

It's human nature to always want better.
Many Americans may wish they had London's transportation system.
Londoner's may wish they had it a la Swiss.
The Swiss may say they wish they had Japanese-style trains for some technical reason.
The Japanese may ask for something like American muscle cars/trucks/hot rods.
Human nature to want something you don't (and can't) have.

[penguintroopers]

My father just tagged my brother on a post regarding a 2009 Chevy Suburban with 140,000 miles on it... for $49k. My eyeballs almost popped out of my head because what on earth?! To top it all off, my brother texted my mother and I that he was thinking of visiting dad around Christmas time, and that dad would have a more long-term vehicle for him. Thankfully I know the chances of my father or brother purchasing said vehicle are akin to me buying a lotto ticket and winning, because both of them can barely manage to keep rent and grocery money together without it burning a hole in their pocket, much less throwing down nearly $50,000 on a vehicle.

Vehicle in question for the curious: https://classifieds.dieselsellerz.com/diesel/truck/6q83j1

[Kyle Schuant]

I live in a HCOL suburb with a *fantastic* school system (and magnet schools in the area for high school if your child is particularly gifted/smart).  Saw on FB that a friend of a friend is looking for a private school for their child to start Kindergarten next year.  They are willing to pay $20k + per year for an "Ivy-league" quality education for the munchkin. 

Those who suggested the excellent public schools were told "that's not an option" with no reason given.

Apparently there was a study in Australia - I've seen it referred to, but not properly cited - that said that small children who had bedtime stories with interaction (ie pointing to words in the book, talking about the book, etc) had an advantage over small children who didn't, even by age 15, and that this advantage is actually greater than that of private vs public school.

We have a few public schools here with a great reputation, indeed one high school, McKinnon, is so well-thought of that over the years they've had to expand from 500 to 2,000 students, and house prices within its zone are $100-$150k more than just outside it, I mean literally across the street.

But then I think of what teachers tell me, "the number one determinant of children's academic success is parental involvement." Now I would think that if parents are willing to pay $20k pa, or go to the trouble of moving houses and spending an extra $100-150k for a house in a particular school's zone, then those are going to be very, very involved parents.

And if you have a whole class of kids like that, they'll tend to encourage each-other. So my thinking is, it's less the teachers and more the parents and fellow students. 

And a friend pointed out, "rather than spending $15k on a school, send them to a public school and spend $5k on tutoring when needed, same outcome."

So... read with your kids, be involved in their education, make sure they're at a place where their classmates have the same kind of parents, and if all else fails, get them some tutoring.

That's what we're doing, anyway.

[dragoncar]

I live in a HCOL suburb with a *fantastic* school system (and magnet schools in the area for high school if your child is particularly gifted/smart).  Saw on FB that a friend of a friend is looking for a private school for their child to start Kindergarten next year.  They are willing to pay $20k + per year for an "Ivy-league" quality education for the munchkin. 

Those who suggested the excellent public schools were told "that's not an option" with no reason given.

Apparently there was a study in Australia - I've seen it referred to, but not properly cited - that said that small children who had bedtime stories with interaction (ie pointing to words in the book, talking about the book, etc) had an advantage over small children who didn't, even by age 15, and that this advantage is actually greater than that of private vs public school.

We have a few public schools here with a great reputation, indeed one high school, McKinnon, is so well-thought of that over the years they've had to expand from 500 to 2,000 students, and house prices within its zone are $100-$150k more than just outside it, I mean literally across the street.

But then I think of what teachers tell me, "the number one determinant of children's academic success is parental involvement." Now I would think that if parents are willing to pay $20k pa, or go to the trouble of moving houses and spending an extra $100-150k for a house in a particular school's zone, then those are going to be very, very involved parents.

And if you have a whole class of kids like that, they'll tend to encourage each-other. So my thinking is, it's less the teachers and more the parents and fellow students. 

And a friend pointed out, "rather than spending $15k on a school, send them to a public school and spend $5k on tutoring when needed, same outcome."

So... read with your kids, be involved in their education, make sure they're at a place where their classmates have the same kind of parents, and if all else fails, get them some tutoring.

That's what we're doing, anyway.

Psh, kids don't need books.  What's wrong with the back of the shampoo bottle?

[marielle]

My father just tagged my brother on a post regarding a 2009 Chevy Suburban with 140,000 miles on it... for $49k. My eyeballs almost popped out of my head because what on earth?! To top it all off, my brother texted my mother and I that he was thinking of visiting dad around Christmas time, and that dad would have a more long-term vehicle for him. Thankfully I know the chances of my father or brother purchasing said vehicle are akin to me buying a lotto ticket and winning, because both of them can barely manage to keep rent and grocery money together without it burning a hole in their pocket, much less throwing down nearly $50,000 on a vehicle.

Vehicle in question for the curious: https://classifieds.dieselsellerz.com/diesel/truck/6q83j1

Looks like only 87k miles. Still nuts but diesels last forever which helps somewhat.

[WerKater]

My Facebook is being overrun today after TfL (Transport for London) have revoked the licence of Uber to operate in the city.

I'm thoroughly confused. How are these non-millionaires justifying the usage of a personal chauffeur service, particularly given the exceptionally robust, cost-effective 24-hour public transport system we have?

Do you think that London should also ban cabs?

[Goldielocks]

My Facebook is being overrun today after TfL (Transport for London) have revoked the licence of Uber to operate in the city.

I'm thoroughly confused. How are these non-millionaires justifying the usage of a personal chauffeur service, particularly given the exceptionally robust, cost-effective 24-hour public transport system we have?

Do you think that London should also ban cabs cats?

Because it is late and I am too tired to read properly, I fixed this for you.

[RetiredAt63]

My father just tagged my brother on a post regarding a 2009 Chevy Suburban with 140,000 miles on it... for $49k. My eyeballs almost popped out of my head because what on earth?! To top it all off, my brother texted my mother and I that he was thinking of visiting dad around Christmas time, and that dad would have a more long-term vehicle for him. Thankfully I know the chances of my father or brother purchasing said vehicle are akin to me buying a lotto ticket and winning, because both of them can barely manage to keep rent and grocery money together without it burning a hole in their pocket, much less throwing down nearly $50,000 on a vehicle.

Vehicle in question for the curious: https://classifieds.dieselsellerz.com/diesel/truck/6q83j1

Looks like only 87k miles. Still nuts but diesels last forever which helps somewhat.

Belleville, Ontario, so 87500 km, not miles.  And the price is Canadian dollars, not US.  Still nuts.

[penguintroopers]

My father just tagged my brother on a post regarding a 2009 Chevy Suburban with 140,000 miles on it... for $49k. My eyeballs almost popped out of my head because what on earth?! To top it all off, my brother texted my mother and I that he was thinking of visiting dad around Christmas time, and that dad would have a more long-term vehicle for him. Thankfully I know the chances of my father or brother purchasing said vehicle are akin to me buying a lotto ticket and winning, because both of them can barely manage to keep rent and grocery money together without it burning a hole in their pocket, much less throwing down nearly $50,000 on a vehicle.

Vehicle in question for the curious: https://classifieds.dieselsellerz.com/diesel/truck/6q83j1

Looks like only 87k miles. Still nuts but diesels last forever which helps somewhat.

Belleville, Ontario, so 87500 km, not miles.  And the price is Canadian dollars, not US.  Still nuts.

Ah, my bad. Somehow the FB post puts 140,000 miles though? Eh.

For the Americans like myself:

$48900 (CAD) = $39631 (USD)
87500 km = 54370 miles
140000 km = 87000 miles

[fredbear]

Looks like only 87k miles. Still nuts but diesels last forever which helps somewhat.

Lot of money, but the people who know diesels will pay a premium for non-cowpiss trucks (ie, no DEF [literally, no mixture of water and urea]).  Mileage is much better, engine life is far longer, the power is still there to haul heavy excavation equipment, and some of the new DEF diesels

- have unreliable DEF gages, and

- go into limp mode when the DEF gets low, so you are tooling along at 80, and it drops instantly, without warning, to 4.  Friend and his little boy barely escaped a highspeed rear-ending because of those two features.

[former player]

My Facebook is being overrun today after TfL (Transport for London) have revoked the licence of Uber to operate in the city.

I'm thoroughly confused. How are these non-millionaires justifying the usage of a personal chauffeur service, particularly given the exceptionally robust, cost-effective 24-hour public transport system we have?

Do you think that London should also ban cabs?

If you are talking about black cabs (ie the hail in the street London taxi service whose drivers have all done The Knowledge and who are quite possibly the safest and most reliable form of urban transport on the planet), please God no.  Worth every penny of their exorbitant fees when you need them.

If you are talking about the order-only minicabs, of which Uber is just one firm among many, frankly my dear I don't give a damn.

[With This Herring]

My father just tagged my brother on a post regarding a 2009 Chevy Suburban with 140,000 miles on it... for $49k. My eyeballs almost popped out of my head because what on earth?! To top it all off, my brother texted my mother and I that he was thinking of visiting dad around Christmas time, and that dad would have a more long-term vehicle for him. Thankfully I know the chances of my father or brother purchasing said vehicle are akin to me buying a lotto ticket and winning, because both of them can barely manage to keep rent and grocery money together without it burning a hole in their pocket, much less throwing down nearly $50,000 on a vehicle.

Vehicle in question for the curious: https://classifieds.dieselsellerz.com/diesel/truck/6q83j1

Looks like only 87k miles. Still nuts but diesels last forever which helps somewhat.

Belleville, Ontario, so 87500 km, not miles.  And the price is Canadian dollars, not US.  Still nuts.

Ah, my bad. Somehow the FB post puts 140,000 miles though? Eh.

For the Americans like myself:

$48900 (CAD) = $39631 (USD)
87500 km = 54370 miles
140000 km = 87000 miles

In the text body:
"The mileage on the diesel cluster reflects the original mileage (in kilometers) on the diesel drivetrain in the Suburban." 

Today I learned that Canadians, while using kilometers, still refer to how far a vehicle has been driven as its "mileage."  I would guess this is because "kilometerage" sounds stupid.

[kayvent]

My father just tagged my brother on a post regarding a 2009 Chevy Suburban with 140,000 miles on it... for $49k. My eyeballs almost popped out of my head because what on earth?! To top it all off, my brother texted my mother and I that he was thinking of visiting dad around Christmas time, and that dad would have a more long-term vehicle for him. Thankfully I know the chances of my father or brother purchasing said vehicle are akin to me buying a lotto ticket and winning, because both of them can barely manage to keep rent and grocery money together without it burning a hole in their pocket, much less throwing down nearly $50,000 on a vehicle.

Vehicle in question for the curious: https://classifieds.dieselsellerz.com/diesel/truck/6q83j1

Looks like only 87k miles. Still nuts but diesels last forever which helps somewhat.

Belleville, Ontario, so 87500 km, not miles.  And the price is Canadian dollars, not US.  Still nuts.

Ah, my bad. Somehow the FB post puts 140,000 miles though? Eh.

For the Americans like myself:

$48900 (CAD) = $39631 (USD)
87500 km = 54370 miles
140000 km = 87000 miles

In the text body:
"The mileage on the diesel cluster reflects the original mileage (in kilometers) on the diesel drivetrain in the Suburban." 

Today I learned that Canadians, while using kilometers, still refer to how far a vehicle has been driven as its "mileage."  I would guess this is because "kilometerage" sounds stupid.

Kilometrage. Kilometerage sounds stupid because only unwashed Americans spell metre "meter".

[dragoncar]

My father just tagged my brother on a post regarding a 2009 Chevy Suburban with 140,000 miles on it... for $49k. My eyeballs almost popped out of my head because what on earth?! To top it all off, my brother texted my mother and I that he was thinking of visiting dad around Christmas time, and that dad would have a more long-term vehicle for him. Thankfully I know the chances of my father or brother purchasing said vehicle are akin to me buying a lotto ticket and winning, because both of them can barely manage to keep rent and grocery money together without it burning a hole in their pocket, much less throwing down nearly $50,000 on a vehicle.

Vehicle in question for the curious: https://classifieds.dieselsellerz.com/diesel/truck/6q83j1

Looks like only 87k miles. Still nuts but diesels last forever which helps somewhat.

Belleville, Ontario, so 87500 km, not miles.  And the price is Canadian dollars, not US.  Still nuts.

Ah, my bad. Somehow the FB post puts 140,000 miles though? Eh.

For the Americans like myself:

$48900 (CAD) = $39631 (USD)
87500 km = 54370 miles
140000 km = 87000 miles

In the text body:
"The mileage on the diesel cluster reflects the original mileage (in kilometers) on the diesel drivetrain in the Suburban." 

Today I learned that Canadians, while using kilometers, still refer to how far a vehicle has been driven as its "mileage."  I would guess this is because "kilometerage" sounds stupid.

Kilometrage. Kilometerage sounds stupid because only unwashed Americans spell metre "meter".

[shelivesthedream]

My Facebook is being overrun today after TfL (Transport for London) have revoked the licence of Uber to operate in the city.

I'm thoroughly confused. How are these non-millionaires justifying the usage of a personal chauffeur service, particularly given the exceptionally robust, cost-effective 24-hour public transport system we have?

Wow, Ive just looked up the story. TfL is making some pretty serious accusations about Uber's company practices. It'll be interesting to see how the appeal pans out. TfL wouldn't have done this without some serious evidence, so good luck to Uber waffling on about "consumer choice" if it turns out they've been breaking laws right left and centre.

I also can't believe how well Uber has done here. London public transport is amazing. We even have the night tube being rolled out now! Uber has never been the cost-effective choice here.

[ShoulderThingThatGoesUp]

Compared to owning a second car for my purposes, Uber is much, much less expensive.

[shelivesthedream]

Compared to owning a second car for my purposes, Uber is much, much less expensive.

What about compared to a London Tube journey?

[gaja]

My Facebook is being overrun today after TfL (Transport for London) have revoked the licence of Uber to operate in the city.

I'm thoroughly confused. How are these non-millionaires justifying the usage of a personal chauffeur service, particularly given the exceptionally robust, cost-effective 24-hour public transport system we have?

Wow, Ive just looked up the story. TfL is making some pretty serious accusations about Uber's company practices. It'll be interesting to see how the appeal pans out. TfL wouldn't have done this without some serious evidence, so good luck to Uber waffling on about "consumer choice" if it turns out they've been breaking laws right left and centre.

I wouldn't be surprised. We have had a few lawsuits here, where the police and tax authorities drain former Uber drivers dry, and Uber does basicly nothing to help their "employees". The laws in Norway are quite clear: running a taxi without a licence is illegal, and the number of licences are strictly regulated. In Denmark, it looks even worse: drivers are taken to court for breaking the taxi laws, being forced to pay back all they have earned + a 20 % fine.

If Uber thinks their business model is the best one, they should fight to change the laws, not go in to new markets knowingly breaking the laws, and throwing the drivers under the bus.

[zolotiyeruki]

I wouldn't be surprised. We have had a few lawsuits here, where the police and tax authorities drain former Uber drivers dry, and Uber does basicly nothing to help their "employees". The laws in Norway are quite clear: running a taxi without a licence is illegal, and the number of licences are strictly regulated. In Denmark, it looks even worse: drivers are taken to court for breaking the taxi laws, being forced to pay back all they have earned + a 20 % fine.

If Uber thinks their business model is the best one, they should fight to change the laws, not go in to new markets knowingly breaking the laws, and throwing the drivers under the bus.

Part of the problem, however, is that in a lot of places the Taxi lobby is quite powerful, and so it's difficult to get the laws changed.  It's very similar to the problems Tesla is facing in many states--the car dealership lobby is well-funded and well-connected, so even though they are extremely profitable (and largely a parasite on the whole industry), they are protected to a ridiculous degree from competition.

[gaja]

I live in a HCOL suburb with a *fantastic* school system (and magnet schools in the area for high school if your child is particularly gifted/smart).  Saw on FB that a friend of a friend is looking for a private school for their child to start Kindergarten next year.  They are willing to pay $20k + per year for an "Ivy-league" quality education for the munchkin. 

Those who suggested the excellent public schools were told "that's not an option" with no reason given.

Apparently there was a study in Australia - I've seen it referred to, but not properly cited - that said that small children who had bedtime stories with interaction (ie pointing to words in the book, talking about the book, etc) had an advantage over small children who didn't, even by age 15, and that this advantage is actually greater than that of private vs public school.

We have a few public schools here with a great reputation, indeed one high school, McKinnon, is so well-thought of that over the years they've had to expand from 500 to 2,000 students, and house prices within its zone are $100-$150k more than just outside it, I mean literally across the street.

But then I think of what teachers tell me, "the number one determinant of children's academic success is parental involvement." Now I would think that if parents are willing to pay $20k pa, or go to the trouble of moving houses and spending an extra $100-150k for a house in a particular school's zone, then those are going to be very, very involved parents.

And if you have a whole class of kids like that, they'll tend to encourage each-other. So my thinking is, it's less the teachers and more the parents and fellow students. 

And a friend pointed out, "rather than spending $15k on a school, send them to a public school and spend $5k on tutoring when needed, same outcome."

So... read with your kids, be involved in their education, make sure they're at a place where their classmates have the same kind of parents, and if all else fails, get them some tutoring.

That's what we're doing, anyway.

We have no problems teaching our kids the academic stuff. It is much harder to teach them how to independently interact with other kids and adults, and adapt their behaviour to deal with all types of people from different backgrounds. So that has been important for us when we choose kindergartens, schools and extracurricilar activities for my girls. They have spent a few months in a kindergarten for refugees, gone on and off to a hospital kindergarten, and the oldest has been part time in two different schools for deaf with plenty of disabled kids and kids from native minorities. Now we have moved to one of the poorer neighbourhoods in the country, with a lovely little school where most of the kids are poor and/or immigrants. Because of the bad statistics, the school gets extra resources from both the municipality and the state, and has managed to attract teachers and administrators who really want to make a difference. Most of the time, the teachers manage to give the girls enough challenges, but we do make sure to push them a bit extra when they do their homework, in weekends and during holidays.

[Hula Hoop]

Gaja - I agree and that's why our kids go to a heavily immigrant school with tons of economic, cultural and racial diversity.  IMO it's much better than a school in a whiter more middle class area.  It's also good as our kids are bilingual in the local language plus English and more than half the kids at this school are also bilingual although mostly in other languages like Bengali, Tagalog, various African languages etc.

[Goldielocks]

Compared to owning a second car for my purposes, Uber is much, much less expensive.

What about compared to a London Tube journey?

In London, based on where we were staying (north of Camden Town), I found that three one way Uber trips / day to various tourist sites was less expensive than 4 daypasses, or 3 Tube trips x 4 persons per day.   We saved about 15-25 minutes per trip with UBER, too, including walking to the stop.   I was surprised as it was my first experience with UBER.   Bus alone (no Tube) was cheaper than UBER, but added time if you were going further away.

The key is 4 persons per ride, though.

[penguintroopers]

Poster: I need to get a new car. This should be fun, my bank account is already crying.
Comment: Same. Just got to deal with "joy" of needing to buy a new car. Here's to 6 years of tears. (champagne glasses toasting emoji)

Me: *with a slow head tilt of confusion*

Does no one realize that its possible to either a. get a used car, b. get a lower priced new car with few features or c. not do something crazy like a 6 year loan term? Is everyone really so stretched thin that they cant scramble a couple hundred bucks together, and then pay it off in high gear so its paid off in 2 years max?

We just went through the car buying process, and I would say we're really happy with our purchase. However, we've only had it for just over a week, so I haven't gotten the "used cars break down, you don't know your car's history" repair bill of death yet. But still. Instead of 6 years of paying on it, we'll hopefully have it paid off by Thanksgiving.

[kayvent]

I remember hearing that "back in the day" three year car loans were ridiculous.

This whole affair is an Ouroboros. When prime interest rates were 11+% it was crazy to have a loan for an extended period of time. Not that loans are so cheap, as strange as it sounds, it is sometimes illogical to not take a loan. (See the Not Paying Off Mortgage early thread.) I am unsure whether people have insane debts because these rates are so low or if these rates are so low because people have crazy debts.

I know there is a feedback loop but I do ponder what was the catalyst. Anyone know of any scholarly discussion on this?

[penguintroopers]

I remember hearing that "back in the day" three year car loans were ridiculous.

This whole affair is an Ouroboros. When prime interest rates were 11+% it was crazy to have a loan for an extended period of time. Not that loans are so cheap, as strange as it sounds, it is sometimes illogical to not take a loan. (See the Not Paying Off Mortgage early thread.) I am unsure whether people have insane debts because these rates are so low or if these rates are so low because people have crazy debts.

I know there is a feedback loop but I do ponder what was the catalyst. Anyone know of any scholarly discussion on this?

True. I had forgotten that some places offer 0% interest on a new vehicle. I doubt we would qualify anyway, which makes that point moot.

On the whole why do we have debt: people take a lot of debt because of low interest rates or interest rates are low because people take a lot of debt... that's a whole which came first, the chicken-or-the-egg conundrum.

I'd suggest its people have crazy debts on stuff because interest rates are low. If interest rates were a lot higher, I would say people would reconsider their mortgage, student loan, and car purchases. Right now its just easier to push those things off, and keeps balances higher. Plus, pretty much everyone sees those as investments (well, minus car loans). Now I'm wondering if rates are low and are staying low because banks are lulling us into a consume nature, and will slowly increase rates until everyone with high debt also has crazy high interest rates.

*slowly puts on tinfoil hat*

[gooki]

The base price of the vehicle is inflated to cover the 0% interest rate.

The cost of wholesale lending is also very cheap.

[zolotiyeruki]

The base price of the vehicle is inflated to cover the 0% interest rate.

The way I hear it, dealerships actually inflate the price if you pay cash, because they get a commission on the financing.

[londonstache]

Compared to owning a second car for my purposes, Uber is much, much less expensive.

What about compared to a London Tube journey?

In London, based on where we were staying (north of Camden Town), I found that three one way Uber trips / day to various tourist sites was less expensive than 4 daypasses, or 3 Tube trips x 4 persons per day.   We saved about 15-25 minutes per trip with UBER, too, including walking to the stop.   I was surprised as it was my first experience with UBER.   Bus alone (no Tube) was cheaper than UBER, but added time if you were going further away.

The key is 4 persons per ride, though.

Depends on how you are doing it - I recommend to those visiting London to get an Oyster card as then you pay the London price rather than the extortionate RRP. However I can easily see how an Uber for 4 seems reasonable.

My big frustration is that most London residents (unless they are bicycling Mustachians, who are even less likely to get an Uber) buy a monthly travelcard that allows them unlimited 24-hour transportation within their selected zones (usually between home and work). As this is a sunk cost the price of an Uber isn't £10 compared to £2 for the underground, it's £10 that is unnecessary spend. 

[cheapass]

The base price of the vehicle is inflated to cover the 0% interest rate.

The way I hear it, dealerships actually inflate the price if you pay cash, because they get a commission on the financing.

That's true if they're making money on the interest. They're not making money on the interest at 0% so the price is higher to cover the lack of interest.

Often times the price isn't "higher", it's just that you have a binary choice of 0% financing OR $x,xxx cash back.

[I'm a red panda]

The base price of the vehicle is inflated to cover the 0% interest rate.

The way I hear it, dealerships actually inflate the price if you pay cash, because they get a commission on the financing.

That's true if they're making money on the interest. They're not making money on the interest at 0% so the price is higher to cover the lack of interest.

Often times the price isn't "higher", it's just that you have a binary choice of 0% financing OR $x,xxx cash back.

I've never had a car loan- but isn't 0% typically an intro rate. And they rely on most people not paying it off before the rate skyrockets.

[ixtap]

The base price of the vehicle is inflated to cover the 0% interest rate.

The way I hear it, dealerships actually inflate the price if you pay cash, because they get a commission on the financing.

That's true if they're making money on the interest. They're not making money on the interest at 0% so the price is higher to cover the lack of interest.

Often times the price isn't "higher", it's just that you have a binary choice of 0% financing OR $x,xxx cash back.

I've never had a car loan- but isn't 0% typically an intro rate. And they rely on most people not paying it off before the rate skyrockets.

No, it is a bait and switch rate. It gets people to come in, but the people who need it aren't eligible. The people who are eligible use it to keep their money earning interest elsewhere, so the business can still claim that it is legit, just look at how many people we give it to.

It also helps the business because boglehead who might have otherwise waited another year or two just might jump on the 0% financing, and so another car gets sold.

[frugalnacho]

The base price of the vehicle is inflated to cover the 0% interest rate.

The way I hear it, dealerships actually inflate the price if you pay cash, because they get a commission on the financing.

So what if you negotiate price before discussing financing? Lead them to believe you need to finance, but not explicitly state it, then when it comes time to finance BAM bust out that check book.   Or explicitly state it anyway to trick them because fuck those crooks they lie all the time.

[cheapass]

So what if you negotiate price before discussing financing? Lead them to believe you need to finance, but not explicitly state it, then when it comes time to finance BAM bust out that check book.   Or explicitly state it anyway to trick them because fuck those crooks they lie all the time.

That's what my friend's brother did. "blah blah monthly payment, yeah that sounds great" and then once the dealer said a final price for the car, he busted out the checkbook. It was awesome.

I've got a 0% loan, just about to run out in June. I think I paid a few hundred extra in the base price of the car, but time value of money it worked out in my favor.

[zolotiyeruki]

The base price of the vehicle is inflated to cover the 0% interest rate.

The way I hear it, dealerships actually inflate the price if you pay cash, because they get a commission on the financing.

That's true if they're making money on the interest. They're not making money on the interest at 0% so the price is higher to cover the lack of interest.

Often times the price isn't "higher", it's just that you have a binary choice of 0% financing OR $x,xxx cash back.

I don't think the dealership gets the interest (or a part of it), I think they get a fixed dollar amount per loan.  I'm not in the industry, though, so this is all second- or third-hand.

[mm1970]

The base price of the vehicle is inflated to cover the 0% interest rate.

The way I hear it, dealerships actually inflate the price if you pay cash, because they get a commission on the financing.

That's why the trick is to negotiate the price, not the price + financing.

Generally, they aren't happy to do this.

I remember several hours at the Toyota dealer, asking me "what about a payment of $XX per month?"
I said "I don't care about the payment.  I care about the fact that I've never bought a new car.  This is the first.  My most expensive car to date was $10,500.  I think that $18,000 is too much."

Eventually I said "nevermind, I'm tired, the baby's tired, we are leaving."

Magically they met my price.

Then we started on financing.  And I pulled out my checkbook.

They were pissed, to say the least.

[I'm a red panda]

The base price of the vehicle is inflated to cover the 0% interest rate.

The way I hear it, dealerships actually inflate the price if you pay cash, because they get a commission on the financing.

So what if you negotiate price before discussing financing? Lead them to believe you need to finance, but not explicitly state it, then when it comes time to finance BAM bust out that check book.   Or explicitly state it anyway to trick them because fuck those crooks they lie all the time.

that's the current advice for negotiating a car price. Not to let them know how you plan to pay.  It used to be that you would ask for a cash discount

[Uturn]

Many buyers are not aware, but the finance guy makes commission on the loans, extended warranties, fabric protection, and all of the other crap they try to push at close.  Actually, just about everyone at the dealership is on commission, maybe not the janitor.

My last purchase went like this:
I sent an email to three dealers, told them that I was looking for the out the door price for a 2014 Altima S brown, charcoal interior, no extended warranties or protections.  Trading in a 08 Rabbit with xxx miles, 5 speed, no dents or scratches, clean interior.  Any replies along the lines of $xxx less than any other offer will be ignored.

One dealer replied not interested, the other two were within $200 of each other.  I called the one that was lower and scheduled a time to come in and close.  Got to the finance office and he brought up the extended warranty.  I said that I understand that he is required to push those, but let's pretend that I sat through all of the sales pitch, I'm not interested.  He said "I understand, but let me explain the benefits" and pulled out a brochure.  I picked up the keys to my trade in and left.

I called the next dealer and scheduled a time to come in and close.  Got to the finance office and he said that he understands that I don't want to purchase any extras, but his price included a $2000 rebate for financing through Nissan Motor Credit, do I have a problem carrying a note for a minimum of 3 months to get the rebate?  I had to finance at least $7k for 90 days at 1.5% to get the $2000 rebate, done. 

Frugal people are the outliers, not the norm.  We have to keep in mind that most sales people do not really know how to handle a frugal customer.  They just don't see us very often.  So I will tell them up front what I expect, and will allow them to blow me off once before I walk out on the deal.

[Rowellen]

The base price of the vehicle is inflated to cover the 0% interest rate.

The way I hear it, dealerships actually inflate the price if you pay cash, because they get a commission on the financing.

That's why the trick is to negotiate the price, not the price + financing.

Generally, they aren't happy to do this.

I remember several hours at the Toyota dealer, asking me "what about a payment of $XX per month?"
I said "I don't care about the payment.  I care about the fact that I've never bought a new car.  This is the first.  My most expensive car to date was $10,500.  I think that $18,000 is too much."

Eventually I said "nevermind, I'm tired, the baby's tired, we are leaving."

Magically they met my price.

Then we started on financing.  And I pulled out my checkbook.

They were pissed, to say the least.

If they are smiling when you leave, you've been ripped off.

[Goldielocks]

So what if you negotiate price before discussing financing? Lead them to believe you need to finance, but not explicitly state it, then when it comes time to finance BAM bust out that check book.   Or explicitly state it anyway to trick them because fuck those crooks they lie all the time.

That's what my friend's brother did. "blah blah monthly payment, yeah that sounds great" and then once the dealer said a final price for the car, he busted out the checkbook. It was awesome.

I've got a 0% loan, just about to run out in June. I think I paid a few hundred extra in the base price of the car, but time value of money it worked out in my favor.

The opposite happened to me, and your suggestion did not work for me.  We were shopping for a used car, and the local dealership had a "0% financing on all cars" offer.  So down we go.  The first question I ask the salesman was "which cars get 0%?"  the answer was all of them.   I re-asked after stating we wanted a used car..."Does the 0% offer cover used cars?".. the answer was yes.   He asked as we approached several cars meeting my specs "What colour do you like?"  I replied "Which colour is cheapest?"...!  I suppose 29 year old women don't normally answer that way?!  Anyway.

We then negotiated the car price, for quite a while, took out our $2k cash deposit to show we were serious to get the guy to stop with the "four square" nonsense and just work on a single price... had to threaten to leave if he continued.   Got to a price, back and forth with the permission from the manager, etc nonsense, and then were handed off to financing for the final write up on our "0%" car loan.

Well,   apparently the 0% offer is not for used cars.   Go figure.     The sales guy thought we would just take the financing available.   I had calculated it into the price we were willing to pay.   We stood up and walked away. 2 hour waste of a saturday afternoon and a babysitter.

[dragoncar]

So what if you negotiate price before discussing financing? Lead them to believe you need to finance, but not explicitly state it, then when it comes time to finance BAM bust out that check book.   Or explicitly state it anyway to trick them because fuck those crooks they lie all the time.

That's what my friend's brother did. "blah blah monthly payment, yeah that sounds great" and then once the dealer said a final price for the car, he busted out the checkbook. It was awesome.

I've got a 0% loan, just about to run out in June. I think I paid a few hundred extra in the base price of the car, but time value of money it worked out in my favor.

The opposite happened to me, and your suggestion did not work for me.  We were shopping for a used car, and the local dealership had a "0% financing on all cars" offer.  So down we go.  The first question I ask the salesman was "which cars get 0%?"  the answer was all of them.   I re-asked after stating we wanted a used car..."Does the 0% offer cover used cars?".. the answer was yes.   He asked as we approached several cars meeting my specs "What colour do you like?"  I replied "Which colour is cheapest?"...!  I suppose 29 year old women don't normally answer that way?!  Anyway.

We then negotiated the car price, for quite a while, took out our $2k cash deposit to show we were serious to get the guy to stop with the "four square" nonsense and just work on a single price... had to threaten to leave if he continued.   Got to a price, back and forth with the permission from the manager, etc nonsense, and then were handed off to financing for the final write up on our "0%" car loan.

Well,   apparently the 0% offer is not for used cars.   Go figure.     The sales guy thought we would just take the financing available.   I had calculated it into the price we were willing to pay.   We stood up and walked away. 2 hour waste of a saturday afternoon and a babysitter.

That's just not worth it to me.   If and when I get another car, I'll probably pay a bit over the optimal price to deal with one of those no haggle places.

[With This Herring]

*snip car dealer rigmarole*

Well,   apparently the 0% offer is not for used cars.   Go figure.     The sales guy thought we would just take the financing available.   I had calculated it into the price we were willing to pay.   We stood up and walked away. 2 hour waste of a saturday afternoon and a babysitter.

That's just not worth it to me.   If and when I get another car, I'll probably pay a bit over the optimal price to deal with one of those no haggle places.

This sort of nonsense is why I only buy cars from individuals (who permit me to get the vehicle inspected by my mechanic first).  No foursquare, no financing shenanigans, no sales pitches.

[Sibley]

It does rattle them when you take the laptop, pull it out and start doing your own amortization tables. Then look up and say, "your numbers are wrong. Please fix them."  Doesn't matter if they do the 4 square nonsense when you're sitting there doing your own calculations. And calling them on the BS. I sat there for 3 hours while they kept coming back with different numbers, I ran my own numbers, and sent them back. In the end, I got the total purchase price that I had predetermined, a better interest rate than my bank had offered, plus a nice chunk of money for using their financing. (this was before I found MMM)

[barbaz]

What's four square?

[Goldielocks]

https://axleaddict.com/auto-sales/How-To-Use-The-Four-Square-System-To-Sell-Cars

Its a way to try to focus the customer on a low monthly lease or payment, and not the total number, while distracting them to look at another box if they have a very good position on why the number in the previous box looked wrong.   It also has a chart with lots of different numbers and a lot of people don't want to juggle so many numbers in their head, and they just trust that the lowest number (the bi-weekly payment, for example) must be good because it is low.

ETA... OMG I just read that link in more detail.  Apparently more downpayment means more gross profit, because they can sell the car for more money as the bank caps out how much they will loan on a car...!!!   I thought I read that wrong, because they can't get finance interest on the downpayment money, but they mean that they can sell the car for MORE...!


Downpayment -- This is one of the best boxes for the salesman to concentrate on as it is usually true that the more cash the customer puts down the higher the gross will be.

Why is that?

A bank will only allow a certain amount of money to be financed on any particular vehicle. If you sell the vehicle for $10,000 dollars but the bank will only lend $8,000 dollars on the vehicle, the only way to maintain gross is to get $2,000 dollars from the customer, plus any tax and registration fees.

[kaypinkHH]

Pre-MMM I bought my first car after landing my first job after finishing university. It was a stupid new car.  I took out a loan at 0.9% or whatever low value it was. I was all proud of myself for negotiating with the dealer/trading in Future Mr.HH's car, etc. etc.

A few years later when we read MMM and decided it was time to sell the car to buy an older used car we busted out the paperwork. We checked the math, and I WAY OVER PAID for the car. Basically it worked out that we ended up getting a $900 trade in on Mr.HH's 2 year old car a the time. Not cool AT ALL.

Next time we had to buy a car: Certified used car dealership, cash offer, "here is our price if you can't match it we are walking". It was so much better.

[JordanOfGilead]

I wonder what the typical APR is for financing a car load of foam these days ....

[marielle]

When your truck is so expensive ($85,000) you're willing to trade it for real estate...

This truck's tires cost more than my car is worth.

[dandarc]

When your truck is so expensive ($85,000) you're willing to trade it for real estate...

This truck's tires cost more than my car is worth.

So, buying this thing was bad, but turning it into real estate is potentially good.  Gotta wonder who would see this ad and think trading a piece of land or a house or condo for a truck is a good deal.