Author Topic: Overheard on Facebook  (Read 6514004 times)

graceann

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7350 on: March 26, 2018, 01:48:57 PM »

I'm 7.5 months pregnant. Someone said to my husband on Sunday (Mother's Day), "Oh, next year you'll be shopping for a card and present too!" He very politely did not say, "Why? My wife doesn't need stupid crap that we pretend our one-year-old child has magically earned money for and picked out himself. What's the point?"


Someone asked my husband what he got me for Mother's Day this year.  He actually did reply "Nothing, she's not my mother."

I spent the day cleaning our mudroom. It gets so yucky over winter, I might make that a tradition.

@iowajes Tell your husband, random internet guy gives him fist bump. I've been saying that since 2006.

@shelivesthedream Looks like we Mustachians behave similarly for kids birthdays, continents apart.

That's funny, sounds like something my ex has said. Problem is he doesn't do anything for his own mother either. If you don't do something nice for the mother of your child on mother's day, then you are an ass. It's just the minimum bar.

Um, I really disagree. It is totally unnecessary for anyone to ever do anything for me on Mother's Day. I don't need to be 'celebrated' on a Hallmark holiday if I'm appreciated all year round. To my mind, if you *need* to do something on Mother's Day to make up for the other 364 days, that's what makes you an ass.
The point of most holidays is acknowledgement- what I get for Mother's Day is a day off. My husband takes the children away, and it is lovely. But it isn't extravagant or wasteful, it's just a nod to me saying thank you.

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partgypsy

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7351 on: March 26, 2018, 04:15:39 PM »

I'm 7.5 months pregnant. Someone said to my husband on Sunday (Mother's Day), "Oh, next year you'll be shopping for a card and present too!" He very politely did not say, "Why? My wife doesn't need stupid crap that we pretend our one-year-old child has magically earned money for and picked out himself. What's the point?"


Someone asked my husband what he got me for Mother's Day this year.  He actually did reply "Nothing, she's not my mother."

I spent the day cleaning our mudroom. It gets so yucky over winter, I might make that a tradition.

@iowajes Tell your husband, random internet guy gives him fist bump. I've been saying that since 2006.

@shelivesthedream Looks like we Mustachians behave similarly for kids birthdays, continents apart.

That's funny, sounds like something my ex has said. Problem is he doesn't do anything for his own mother either. If you don't do something nice for the mother of your child on mother's day, then you are an ass. It's just the minimum bar.

Um, I really disagree. It is totally unnecessary for anyone to ever do anything for me on Mother's Day. I don't need to be 'celebrated' on a Hallmark holiday if I'm appreciated all year round. To my mind, if you *need* to do something on Mother's Day to make up for the other 364 days, that's what makes you an ass.
The point of most holidays is acknowledgement- what I get for Mother's Day is a day off. My husband takes the children away, and it is lovely. But it isn't extravagant or wasteful, it's just a nod to me saying thank you.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Exactly. Doesn't need to be a gift, some kind of acknowledgment and letting you have some time off is great.6

firelight

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7352 on: March 26, 2018, 11:28:21 PM »
I'm currently witnessing a torrent of wedding related spending so head-spinning that I've had to place someone on a 30-day break to stop seeing all their posts. The goal is apparently to spend more of their parent's money on a wedding than their sibling did when they got married. The implication was that since they weren't going to receive a cash gift from the parents (since their gift was payment of wedding expenses,) that the person is extracting the biggest "gift" that they can by selecting the most services and luxuries possible. Most of the updates till now have been about anticipating being treated like royalty. The way its being hyped up, I can only assume it will end in disappointment, because once the experience is over and the feeling fades away, their hedonic adaption will ensure that it was never enough to satisfy that itch to be catered to so diligently.

That is a really horrifying thing to do to their parents. My parents have more money than they know what to do with, but I still couldn't imagine trying to squeeze money out of them just to one-up a sibling. I don't know if I feel bad for the parents for having to deal with such a crappy child or if they deserve it because they didn't instill one reasonable value in their child for the 18+ years they had the job to make them not a shitty person.
Well let's say someone's sister is doing it now and that someone may be typing this right now. As long as parents are fine footing the bill and the said sister is fine with the crash that is going to follow, it's not my circus and not my monkeys.

barbaz

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7353 on: March 27, 2018, 12:57:04 AM »
If you don't do something nice for the mother of your child on mother's day, then you are an ass. It's just the minimum bar.
Huh? Who decided that? I make my children draw a picture, does that count?

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7354 on: March 27, 2018, 02:06:09 AM »
If you don't do something nice for the mother of your child on mother's day, then you are an ass. It's just the minimum bar.
Huh? Who decided that? I make my children draw a picture, does that count?

I agree with you. It's a stupid event, in my opinion, and was always ignored in my house. As was Fathers Day.

mm1970

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7355 on: March 27, 2018, 10:18:44 AM »
Like last year, I will be celebrating the day BEFORE mother's day with a half marathon.

Which means on mother's day, I'll mostly be lounging on the couch in pain.  So I guess I don't have to cook dinner!  Throw a couple of dark chocolate peanut butter cups at me and I'll be happy.

La Bibliotecaria Feroz

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7356 on: March 27, 2018, 03:17:07 PM »
Celebrating Mother's Day as a single mom was a challenge. What would be fun for ME and not a bunch of work? So I bought a pizza and the kids and I ate it out of the box in the park, then they played and I read a book. Stepmom gave us some leftover Mother's Day cupcakes for dessert. It was delightful.

partgypsy

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7357 on: March 28, 2018, 11:54:29 AM »
Celebrating Mother's Day as a single mom was a challenge. What would be fun for ME and not a bunch of work? So I bought a pizza and the kids and I ate it out of the box in the park, then they played and I read a book. Stepmom gave us some leftover Mother's Day cupcakes for dessert. It was delightful.

My kids were excellent for mother's day; both homemade cards and bringing me breakfast in bed. To tell the truth I don't care for breakfast in bed; when I'm up I'm up and don't want to lounge around plus don't like food in the bedroom. But they reaally wanted to do it so I obliged and it was touching.

ysette9

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7358 on: March 28, 2018, 08:28:49 PM »
I remember doing breakfast in bed a couple of times for my parents as a kid and I loved it! I’m not so sure they did, but they were good sports about it.

Cali

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7359 on: March 28, 2018, 11:00:45 PM »
I think all holidays involving marketing are a joke. Although I am a pretty big fan of kid drawings.

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7360 on: March 29, 2018, 02:17:47 AM »

I'm 7.5 months pregnant. Someone said to my husband on Sunday (Mother's Day), "Oh, next year you'll be shopping for a card and present too!" He very politely did not say, "Why? My wife doesn't need stupid crap that we pretend our one-year-old child has magically earned money for and picked out himself. What's the point?"


Someone asked my husband what he got me for Mother's Day this year.  He actually did reply "Nothing, she's not my mother."

I spent the day cleaning our mudroom. It gets so yucky over winter, I might make that a tradition.

@iowajes Tell your husband, random internet guy gives him fist bump. I've been saying that since 2006.

@shelivesthedream Looks like we Mustachians behave similarly for kids birthdays, continents apart.

That's funny, sounds like something my ex has said. Problem is he doesn't do anything for his own mother either. If you don't do something nice for the mother of your child on mother's day, then you are an ass. It's just the minimum bar.

Um, I really disagree. It is totally unnecessary for anyone to ever do anything for me on Mother's Day. I don't need to be 'celebrated' on a Hallmark holiday if I'm appreciated all year round. To my mind, if you *need* to do something on Mother's Day to make up for the other 364 days, that's what makes you an ass.
The point of most holidays is acknowledgement- what I get for Mother's Day is a day off. My husband takes the children away, and it is lovely. But it isn't extravagant or wasteful, it's just a nod to me saying thank you.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Exactly. Doesn't need to be a gift, some kind of acknowledgment and letting you have some time off is great.6

My mum's request for Mother's Day was always the same:

A book and time to read it.

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7361 on: March 29, 2018, 03:42:48 AM »
I don’t even celebrate my wife’s birthday (hey it’s not like I gave birth to her) so why would I do anything for mother’s day?

I'm a red panda

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7362 on: March 29, 2018, 07:13:28 AM »

I'm 7.5 months pregnant. Someone said to my husband on Sunday (Mother's Day), "Oh, next year you'll be shopping for a card and present too!" He very politely did not say, "Why? My wife doesn't need stupid crap that we pretend our one-year-old child has magically earned money for and picked out himself. What's the point?"


Someone asked my husband what he got me for Mother's Day this year.  He actually did reply "Nothing, she's not my mother."

I spent the day cleaning our mudroom. It gets so yucky over winter, I might make that a tradition.

@iowajes Tell your husband, random internet guy gives him fist bump. I've been saying that since 2006.

@shelivesthedream Looks like we Mustachians behave similarly for kids birthdays, continents apart.

That's funny, sounds like something my ex has said. Problem is he doesn't do anything for his own mother either. If you don't do something nice for the mother of your child on mother's day, then you are an ass. It's just the minimum bar.

Disagree.  As the mother of my child; I do not think my husband is an ass for not doing something for me on behalf of my child.  Maybe he'll help her do something for me when she is older.

The bar minimum is calling your own mother.

(Like @dragoncar we don't celebrate each other's birthday's either.  And to follow up, we did make my daughter a cake for her 1st birthday, but we did not get her a gift.)

FIRE47

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7363 on: March 29, 2018, 07:40:43 AM »
https://m.news-mail.com.au/news/grandpa-claims-his-140k-lottery-win-ruined-his-lif/3346455/

This popped up on my Facebook feed today via a mustachian Facebook page.

Old dude on disability pension won 80,000 pounds. Blew it all in a matter of weeks on holidays, renovations and giving away the rest to family.

Welfare department saw his bank records and cancelled his pension.

He's now complaining saying what a nightmare it is.

I am struggling to have any sympathy at all.

Well you should have sympathy. This is no joke and people on these types of government assistance should not play the lottery for this very reason.

In most cases they have no choice but to quickly spend the money as they are not allowed to have any assets above a certain limit (often $5-10k depending on the program and country) and face differing levels of penalties and possibly criminal action if they do not report properly while in possession of such assets and if they continue to unknowingly collect assistance.

Their assistance is often suspended until they can prove that they spent all of the money and they have their assets audited. These people often do not have the presence of mind (they are on disability for a reason - often it is mental) to keep receipts or to fill in the required reports and so quickly become much worse off than before as they struggle to prove the money has been spent.

I knew one of these people and was assisting him to keep track of his spending and prepare reports - not even a vehicle is allowed to be kept as it will put them in violation of the asset threshold in many cases. Like many government programs these people quickly become tangled in red tape and run afoul of the rules taking months or years to have their benefits restored long after the windfall has been spent (a windfall an office bureaucrat has threatened them into spending).

How about you get off your high horse and think for a minute

MOD NOTE: Forum rule #1, please.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 10:29:53 PM by arebelspy »

solon

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7364 on: March 29, 2018, 08:54:41 AM »
https://m.news-mail.com.au/news/grandpa-claims-his-140k-lottery-win-ruined-his-lif/3346455/

This popped up on my Facebook feed today via a mustachian Facebook page.

Old dude on disability pension won 80,000 pounds. Blew it all in a matter of weeks on holidays, renovations and giving away the rest to family.

Welfare department saw his bank records and cancelled his pension.

He's now complaining saying what a nightmare it is.

I am struggling to have any sympathy at all.

Well you should have sympathy. This is no joke and people on these types of government assistance should not play the lottery for this very reason.

In most cases they have no choice but to quickly spend the money as they are not allowed to have any assets above a certain limit (often $5-10k depending on the program and country) and face differing levels of penalties and possibly criminal action if they do not report properly while in possession of such assets and if they continue to unknowingly collect assistance.

Their assistance is often suspended until they can prove that they spent all of the money and they have their assets audited. These people often do not have the presence of mind (they are on disability for a reason - often it is mental) to keep receipts or to fill in the required reports and so quickly become much worse off than before as they struggle to prove the money has been spent.

I knew one of these people and was assisting him to keep track of his spending and prepare reports - not even a vehicle is allowed to be kept as it will put them in violation of the asset threshold in many cases. Like many government programs these people quickly become tangled in red tape and run afoul of the rules taking months or years to have their benefits restored long after the windfall has been spent (a windfall an office bureaucrat has threatened them into spending).

How about you get off your high horse and think for a minute

Relax, take it eeaassyy!!

solon

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7365 on: March 29, 2018, 09:06:53 AM »
Seen on facebook:



And people were actually commenting "BFF"!

merula

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7366 on: March 29, 2018, 09:44:07 AM »
My brother commented BFF. I was texting with other family about why anyone would even post that. Is it just to get a list of gullible people for other purposes?

RidetheRain

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7367 on: March 29, 2018, 09:47:02 AM »
Seen on facebook:



And people were actually commenting "BFF"!

It's troubling how little people know about the technology they use. For many people, Facebook is the most sophisticated thing they use on the internet and it's not surprising that they don't understand the features. After all, the news has been all over the information Facebook has mined from posts and likes. It's certainly within their capabilities to make this feature happen. How are technophobes to know the difference?

BTDretire

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7368 on: March 29, 2018, 10:07:57 AM »
This came up on my fb today. I clicked through to see how much. $200 a pop.  Now considering the purpose is to keep pets out of other pets dishes, you'd have to buy at least 2. I don't have pets at the moment but when I did they learnt pretty fast to eat quick or they'd go hungry.

Lots of people use these to keep from feeding racooons and stray cats.
So you might just need 1.

Why not just get a pet door that only allows your cat in? Mine operates on the cat's microchip. You can actually program it to allow different access for different animals, for example if one cat is confined inside for some reason. OK, my pet door was NOT cheap but it solved a whole lot of more expensive problems with an aggressive cat invader.
The cat is treated with mustachian care. It lives outdoors, never comes in, I feed it twice a day.
We never wanted a cat, my son's friend's sister had a cat and moved to an apartment that didn't allow cats.
Somehow it ended up at my home.* That was about  8 years ago, she was about 3 years old when we got her. I'm told for an outdoor cat she has lived a long life.
 * I think there was some coordination with my son, but I never got those details. 

ketchup

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7369 on: March 29, 2018, 10:13:03 AM »
That's just weird.  Reminds me of the "recharge your iPhone in a microwave" images that was floating around for a while (don't do that).
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 10:51:38 AM by ketchup »

solon

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7370 on: March 29, 2018, 10:23:10 AM »
That's just weird.  Reminds me of the "recharge your iPhone in a microwave" imagine that was floating around for a while (don't do that).

Wow, that's funny. I missed it until now!

marty998

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7371 on: March 29, 2018, 03:35:28 PM »
https://m.news-mail.com.au/news/grandpa-claims-his-140k-lottery-win-ruined-his-lif/3346455/

This popped up on my Facebook feed today via a mustachian Facebook page.

Old dude on disability pension won 80,000 pounds. Blew it all in a matter of weeks on holidays, renovations and giving away the rest to family.

Welfare department saw his bank records and cancelled his pension.

He's now complaining saying what a nightmare it is.

I am struggling to have any sympathy at all.

In most cases they have no choice but to quickly spend the money as they are not allowed to have any assets above a certain limit (often $5-10k depending on the program and country) and face differing levels of penalties and possibly criminal action if they do not report properly while in possession of such assets and if they continue to unknowingly collect assistance.


I'm sorry what @FIRE47 ? No choice but to spend as quickly as possible so they can continue collecting benefits? Huh. How about he puts that money in the bank, reports it to the welfare office, and withdraws it SLOWLY in line with his actual expenses.

I wouldn't begrudge him spending a bit extra on a little fun. I'm not Mussolini.

Such a strategy could see that money last up to 4 years. He can then go back on benefits when the money runs out. I don't see why he needs welfare benefits and support immediately, if he suddenly has 80,000 sterling in the bank. It's not a life changing amount of money, but it will tide most people over for a year or more.

Also, how can anyone "unknowingly collect assistance"?

Quote
Their assistance is often suspended until they can prove that they spent all of the money and they have their assets audited. These people often do not have the presence of mind (they are on disability for a reason - often it is mental) to keep receipts or to fill in the required reports and so quickly become much worse off than before as they struggle to prove the money has been spent.

They had the presence of mind to fill out the form to collect welfare in the first place, they should have the presence of mind to do the same now. And as you yourself point out, you've been assisting someone who is unable to do it themselves. It is not hard for him to show a bank statement that has "holiday and cruises" written all over the debit lines.

Quote
I knew one of these people and was assisting him to keep track of his spending and prepare reports - not even a vehicle is allowed to be kept as it will put them in violation of the asset threshold in many cases. Like many government programs these people quickly become tangled in red tape and run afoul of the rules taking months or years to have their benefits restored long after the windfall has been spent (a windfall an office bureaucrat has threatened them into spending).

Threatened them into spending? I reckon it is simply the advice the welfare officer is trained to give. i.e. "we can't give you benefits if you have money in the bank". Perhaps that sounds like a threat, I don't know, I guess I'm speaking from privilege. But the fact remains, he has money in the bank. Welfare is meant for people who the government deems cannot support themselves. For the time being he can.

We can quibble about amounts, and thresholds (indeed I believe the amount paid for unemployment is punitively low in my country, whilst other benefits are probably too generous). But that is ultimately decided at the ballot box. Not here on this forum.


shelivesthedream

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7372 on: March 29, 2018, 05:02:10 PM »
I'm the snuggliest wuggliest socialist ever, but I largely have to agree with marty998. Spending it is totally reasonable - either on something needed that will last (one might well be able to buy a flat on that in Scotland, or at least a reliable car - the renovations thing is bizarre because they are renting - unless they just mean furniture?) or on drawing it down over a few years at a higher rate of income than he's used to so he can have a little fun. Or, indeed, going on one holiday and then doing the rest. But implying that you *have* to spend the whole lot in some hedonistic orgy within a few weeks otherwise your benefits will be cancelled... Well, if you have 80k in the bank then you don't need the benefits, do you? You can always reapply when the money's gone later on. The fact is that they didn't tell DWP about the money and I cannot believe that neither of them knew that they should have done. So yes, they have fucked themselves over by depriving themselves of capital - and astonishingly quickly too!

However, I do have sympathy with the thought that generally if such people were sufficiently together to think it through like that, they probably wouldn't need to be on benefits in the first place. Still, it would really be worth the Job Centre providing some kind of financial counselling to people who suddenly come into an a-lot-to-them amount of money to stop them pissing it away immediately.

FIRE47

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7373 on: March 29, 2018, 05:35:32 PM »
https://m.news-mail.com.au/news/grandpa-claims-his-140k-lottery-win-ruined-his-lif/3346455/

This popped up on my Facebook feed today via a mustachian Facebook page.

Old dude on disability pension won 80,000 pounds. Blew it all in a matter of weeks on holidays, renovations and giving away the rest to family.

Welfare department saw his bank records and cancelled his pension.

He's now complaining saying what a nightmare it is.

I am struggling to have any sympathy at all.

In most cases they have no choice but to quickly spend the money as they are not allowed to have any assets above a certain limit (often $5-10k depending on the program and country) and face differing levels of penalties and possibly criminal action if they do not report properly while in possession of such assets and if they continue to unknowingly collect assistance.


I'm sorry what @FIRE47 ? No choice but to spend as quickly as possible so they can continue collecting benefits? Huh. How about he puts that money in the bank, reports it to the welfare office, and withdraws it SLOWLY in line with his actual expenses.

I wouldn't begrudge him spending a bit extra on a little fun. I'm not Mussolini.

Such a strategy could see that money last up to 4 years. He can then go back on benefits when the money runs out. I don't see why he needs welfare benefits and support immediately, if he suddenly has 80,000 sterling in the bank. It's not a life changing amount of money, but it will tide most people over for a year or more.

Also, how can anyone "unknowingly collect assistance"?

Quote
Their assistance is often suspended until they can prove that they spent all of the money and they have their assets audited. These people often do not have the presence of mind (they are on disability for a reason - often it is mental) to keep receipts or to fill in the required reports and so quickly become much worse off than before as they struggle to prove the money has been spent.

They had the presence of mind to fill out the form to collect welfare in the first place, they should have the presence of mind to do the same now. And as you yourself point out, you've been assisting someone who is unable to do it themselves. It is not hard for him to show a bank statement that has "holiday and cruises" written all over the debit lines.

Quote
I knew one of these people and was assisting him to keep track of his spending and prepare reports - not even a vehicle is allowed to be kept as it will put them in violation of the asset threshold in many cases. Like many government programs these people quickly become tangled in red tape and run afoul of the rules taking months or years to have their benefits restored long after the windfall has been spent (a windfall an office bureaucrat has threatened them into spending).

Threatened them into spending? I reckon it is simply the advice the welfare officer is trained to give. i.e. "we can't give you benefits if you have money in the bank". Perhaps that sounds like a threat, I don't know, I guess I'm speaking from privilege. But the fact remains, he has money in the bank. Welfare is meant for people who the government deems cannot support themselves. For the time being he can.

We can quibble about amounts, and thresholds (indeed I believe the amount paid for unemployment is punitively low in my country, whilst other benefits are probably too generous). But that is ultimately decided at the ballot box. Not here on this forum.

Collect while they are unknowingly no longer eligible to collect.

Do they have the presence of mind to fill in the forms and keep proper paperwork? In many cases they do not. Simply withdrawing money from your account and showing a bank statement is not enough.

I agree if it was a life changing amount they should plan carefully and have a better life than they otherwise would have - as it is a small amount may as well be spent as all it is doing is replacing income they would be getting anyways.

All of what you are saying makes sense in the context of you or I - however these people are not you or I - they are often mentally challenged or severely impaired - they do not have the ability to manage a lump sum into regular monthly cash-flow when the most they have ever had is $100 to their name.

The lottery ruins many people of normal abilities - what do you think it does to someone with an IQ of 70?

The way you describe the process dealing with the government sounds simple - but believe me when you are at the mercy of an unaccountable bureaucrat it is not.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 05:42:54 PM by FIRE47 »

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7374 on: March 29, 2018, 07:40:06 PM »
That's the weird thing about lotteries, though. Everyone who plays has a plan about what they would do if they won big, and a plan to continue business as usual if they don't win at all. But nobody has a plan of what to do when they win relatively little. Even a windfall of a few thousand dollars can put a real kink in the finances of a person on social assistance and cause more havoc than it's worth if it costs them their benefits.

Imma

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7375 on: March 30, 2018, 09:23:00 AM »
I worked in the local benefits department for a couple of years some time ago and we actually had a windfall policy. It happens more often than you'd think, althouh in most cases it's an inheritance, not a lottery win.The receipients are allowed to draw down the money at the rate of the minimum wage (while benefits level is 70% of the minimum wage, so their income increases for a while!) and then we calculate the earliest date at which they'd be allowed to collect benefits again. As long as they're off benefits, they don't need to fill in any paperwork so they are generally really happy and often try to stretch the money so they can be off benefits for a longer period of time.

We were allowed to make exceptions, for example, allow people to use a certain amount for "reasonable spending" like replace some old furniture or buying a cheap car, or when someone wanted to use the money to get an education or start a business. In my experience, a part of the receipients were indeed so bad with money they ended up in trouble, but quite a lot of people managed their money pretty well.

I don't think it's unfair at all to expect people to pay their own way after a windfall. Benefits are there for people in need, and if you inherit half a house or win the lottery, then you're not in need, at least not for a while.

FIRE47

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7376 on: March 30, 2018, 09:54:46 AM »
I worked in the local benefits department for a couple of years some time ago and we actually had a windfall policy. It happens more often than you'd think, althouh in most cases it's an inheritance, not a lottery win.The receipients are allowed to draw down the money at the rate of the minimum wage (while benefits level is 70% of the minimum wage, so their income increases for a while!) and then we calculate the earliest date at which they'd be allowed to collect benefits again. As long as they're off benefits, they don't need to fill in any paperwork so they are generally really happy and often try to stretch the money so they can be off benefits for a longer period of time.

We were allowed to make exceptions, for example, allow people to use a certain amount for "reasonable spending" like replace some old furniture or buying a cheap car, or when someone wanted to use the money to get an education or start a business. In my experience, a part of the receipients were indeed so bad with money they ended up in trouble, but quite a lot of people managed their money pretty well.

I don't think it's unfair at all to expect people to pay their own way after a windfall. Benefits are there for people in need, and if you inherit half a house or win the lottery, then you're not in need, at least not for a while.

It's not unfair no - there is no other solution really other than to cut them off as they temporarily have their own money.

All I was saying to the one poster is not to be so quick to judge someone in this situation who has found themselves caught in a bad place for a few months ensnared in red tape due to a lottery (or other) windfall - this is a real problem for some of these people.

The system where you are seems to make much more sense. Here you have to prove that the money is gone and not tied up in assets of value which as you can imagine can get quite messy.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7377 on: March 30, 2018, 06:39:16 PM »
I worked in the local benefits department for a couple of years some time ago and we actually had a windfall policy. It happens more often than you'd think, althouh in most cases it's an inheritance, not a lottery win.The receipients are allowed to draw down the money at the rate of the minimum wage (while benefits level is 70% of the minimum wage, so their income increases for a while!) and then we calculate the earliest date at which they'd be allowed to collect benefits again. As long as they're off benefits, they don't need to fill in any paperwork so they are generally really happy and often try to stretch the money so they can be off benefits for a longer period of time.

We were allowed to make exceptions, for example, allow people to use a certain amount for "reasonable spending" like replace some old furniture or buying a cheap car, or when someone wanted to use the money to get an education or start a business. In my experience, a part of the receipients were indeed so bad with money they ended up in trouble, but quite a lot of people managed their money pretty well.

I don't think it's unfair at all to expect people to pay their own way after a windfall. Benefits are there for people in need, and if you inherit half a house or win the lottery, then you're not in need, at least not for a while.

How does that get enforced?

I'm only really familiar with lottery systems in Canada and the USA. There, the winnings are simply paid out to the winner and reported to the appropriate tax authority; there is sometimes a means to withhold income tax if income tax is due. In your system, how is it that people draw down their assets at only the minimum wage rate? That would take a lot of discipline especially if there are relatives and friends pressing for a slice of that money. Some individuals could manage it anyway but I expect they'd be in the minority.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7378 on: March 31, 2018, 07:02:07 AM »
I worked in the local benefits department for a couple of years some time ago and we actually had a windfall policy. It happens more often than you'd think, althouh in most cases it's an inheritance, not a lottery win.The receipients are allowed to draw down the money at the rate of the minimum wage (while benefits level is 70% of the minimum wage, so their income increases for a while!) and then we calculate the earliest date at which they'd be allowed to collect benefits again. As long as they're off benefits, they don't need to fill in any paperwork so they are generally really happy and often try to stretch the money so they can be off benefits for a longer period of time.

We were allowed to make exceptions, for example, allow people to use a certain amount for "reasonable spending" like replace some old furniture or buying a cheap car, or when someone wanted to use the money to get an education or start a business. In my experience, a part of the receipients were indeed so bad with money they ended up in trouble, but quite a lot of people managed their money pretty well.

I don't think it's unfair at all to expect people to pay their own way after a windfall. Benefits are there for people in need, and if you inherit half a house or win the lottery, then you're not in need, at least not for a while.

How does that get enforced?

I'm only really familiar with lottery systems in Canada and the USA. There, the winnings are simply paid out to the winner and reported to the appropriate tax authority; there is sometimes a means to withhold income tax if income tax is due. In your system, how is it that people draw down their assets at only the minimum wage rate? That would take a lot of discipline especially if there are relatives and friends pressing for a slice of that money. Some individuals could manage it anyway but I expect they'd be in the minority.

Yes, people need a lot of discipline and not everyone is able to. They sometimes end up in trouble. But quite a lot of people weren't doing badly at all: I remember a lady who was a carer for her ex-husband and two adult children, all with the same mental illness. She received an inheritance and was told to spend it over 3 years, instead she stretched it over 5 years. All the time she was living from her own assets, she was free of paperwork and visits to our office and she had enough on her plate already.

But of course, especially for people struggling with mental illness or have had little education, receiving a inheritance or a lottery win could end up being a nightmare. In case of an inheritance, it's possible to appoint a conservator in your will and if I wanted to leave money to a vulnerable person, I would certainly consider that.

It's almost impossible to hide assets in here, because a lot of things are linked in a database through your social security number (benefits, social security, tax records, bank accounts, ownership of cars or houses) so we always have up to date information about people's finances. Say someone receiving benefits would get a €100.000 inheritance, and minimum wage is about €1400 after taxes. Unless it is agreed upon that they can spend money on other things, they would get a letter from us that it has been decided that they should make that money last for about 70 months, which is almost 6 years. They can't apply again before date X and a note is made in their file.

If they do apply earlier than that date, they need to provide bank statements over that entire period to prove they didn't waste their money, but unexpected emergencies came up. If they did waste their money, in the worst case scenario they would not qualify for benefits at all and they would end up destitute. In many cases, they will be punished by getting a lower monthy payment for a while (depending on how they spent it) .

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7379 on: March 31, 2018, 05:05:59 PM »


It's almost impossible to hide assets in here, because a lot of things are linked in a database through your social security number (benefits, social security, tax records, bank accounts, ownership of cars or houses) so we always have up to date information about people's finances. Say someone receiving benefits would get a €100.000 inheritance, and minimum wage is about €1400 after taxes. Unless it is agreed upon that they can spend money on other things, they would get a letter from us that it has been decided that they should make that money last for about 70 months, which is almost 6 years. They can't apply again before date X and a note is made in their file.


Am I reading this correctly, that someone evaluating their need for social security has full access to their bank statements?

Hirondelle

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7380 on: April 01, 2018, 01:31:56 AM »
Talking with a friend on fb about Easter plans:
Friend: "Oh I've just been window shopping"
Me: "you're so broke you can't buy stuff?"
Friend: "No not broke, just trying to save up for overspending on Christmas"
Me: "Oh wow, that's some die-hard early planning!"
Friend: "No I mean last christmas"

So this guy still has to compensate for his excessive Christmas spending after 3 months...

Imma

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7381 on: April 01, 2018, 11:27:52 AM »


It's almost impossible to hide assets in here, because a lot of things are linked in a database through your social security number (benefits, social security, tax records, bank accounts, ownership of cars or houses) so we always have up to date information about people's finances. Say someone receiving benefits would get a €100.000 inheritance, and minimum wage is about €1400 after taxes. Unless it is agreed upon that they can spend money on other things, they would get a letter from us that it has been decided that they should make that money last for about 70 months, which is almost 6 years. They can't apply again before date X and a note is made in their file.


Am I reading this correctly, that someone evaluating their need for social security has full access to their bank statements?

Yes, you are reading that correctly. You need to provide 3 months of bank statements of all accounts when you initially apply for benefits, but in case of doubt, they can ask for more bank statements.

Also, once you are on benefits, at any point you can be requested to provide 3 months of bank statements. This is to make sure you do not have any other legal source of income outside of work (they can access income tax and social security records, so they know if you're legally employed or not) and also to see if there's anything in your outgoings that doesn't add up that might mean you have some non-legal cash income.

RidetheRain

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7382 on: April 02, 2018, 09:49:39 AM »


It's almost impossible to hide assets in here, because a lot of things are linked in a database through your social security number (benefits, social security, tax records, bank accounts, ownership of cars or houses) so we always have up to date information about people's finances. Say someone receiving benefits would get a €100.000 inheritance, and minimum wage is about €1400 after taxes. Unless it is agreed upon that they can spend money on other things, they would get a letter from us that it has been decided that they should make that money last for about 70 months, which is almost 6 years. They can't apply again before date X and a note is made in their file.


Am I reading this correctly, that someone evaluating their need for social security has full access to their bank statements?

Yes, you are reading that correctly. You need to provide 3 months of bank statements of all accounts when you initially apply for benefits, but in case of doubt, they can ask for more bank statements.

Also, once you are on benefits, at any point you can be requested to provide 3 months of bank statements. This is to make sure you do not have any other legal source of income outside of work (they can access income tax and social security records, so they know if you're legally employed or not) and also to see if there's anything in your outgoings that doesn't add up that might mean you have some non-legal cash income.

I work in public benefits too. There's something called "mandatory reporting" which is when you have to report significant changes to your financial outlook. So if you get a new job you have a window to report it before you are considered to be committing fraud. If you don't report then you'll get asked when you need to be re-evaluated for benefits which usually happens once a year. What your assets are is a pretty major question, you can't miss it and you have to bring a bank statement to prove the balance is correct. So they can't log in to your bank account online or whatever, but the government does need to be told.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7383 on: April 02, 2018, 03:43:43 PM »


It's almost impossible to hide assets in here, because a lot of things are linked in a database through your social security number (benefits, social security, tax records, bank accounts, ownership of cars or houses) so we always have up to date information about people's finances. Say someone receiving benefits would get a €100.000 inheritance, and minimum wage is about €1400 after taxes. Unless it is agreed upon that they can spend money on other things, they would get a letter from us that it has been decided that they should make that money last for about 70 months, which is almost 6 years. They can't apply again before date X and a note is made in their file.


Am I reading this correctly, that someone evaluating their need for social security has full access to their bank statements?

Rowe - If you're in the US, its important to note that Imma is in a European country.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7384 on: April 02, 2018, 07:24:09 PM »
The assets test is a funny thing. Now, I get why they do it: assistance is based on need, and if you have a lot of assets then you need less than someone who does. That's completely fair and reasonable.


But... this means that if I were unemployed and applied for benefit, with (say) $20,000 saved up in the bank, they'd tell me I can access help in 6 months. "Well done, go away." If I went to the pub and put that $20,000 through the pokies and went back tomorrow, they'd give me assistance straight away. "You're an idiot, here's your cheque."


Again: assistance based on need, this is right and proper. But it does have the unintended consequence of rewarding people who fail to plan ahead, and penalising those who have their shit together. I'm not sure if that should be changed, or if so, how. But it's still funny.

barbaz

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7385 on: April 03, 2018, 12:42:51 AM »
Again: assistance based on need, this is right and proper. But it does have the unintended consequence of rewarding people who fail to plan ahead, and penalising those who have their shit together.
That has always been the problem with assistance based on need and I doubt there’s a good solution to it without going all fascist.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7386 on: April 03, 2018, 01:26:21 AM »
We rehash this problem in Britain every so often. You don't have to be down to Ł0 in the bank to get benefits, and I believe different kinds of benefits have different asset limits, but yep, it's a tough one with no good answer to balancing people's general freedom to do what they want with their money with providing a safety net so people aren't starving to death. But in Europe generally and to some extent in Britain I think we're comfortable with the idea that if you need something from the state (money) then the state can require something of you (information, applying to jobs...) The extent of that and how it's managed is debated but the principle is acceptable.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7387 on: April 03, 2018, 08:44:40 AM »


It's almost impossible to hide assets in here, because a lot of things are linked in a database through your social security number (benefits, social security, tax records, bank accounts, ownership of cars or houses) so we always have up to date information about people's finances. Say someone receiving benefits would get a €100.000 inheritance, and minimum wage is about €1400 after taxes. Unless it is agreed upon that they can spend money on other things, they would get a letter from us that it has been decided that they should make that money last for about 70 months, which is almost 6 years. They can't apply again before date X and a note is made in their file.


Am I reading this correctly, that someone evaluating their need for social security has full access to their bank statements?

Rowe - If you're in the US, its important to note that Imma is in a European country.

Indeed. How banking and finance works, industry-wise, varies a *lot* across the globe. Differences range from the technology adopted to the amount of communication permitted between banks and the government.

Many people do consider the US model to be quite antiquated and Byzantine, consisting as it does of a hodgepodge of mostly unrelated companies that are subject to a bit of regulation but no real transparency. It used to be quite a powerhouse because of the competition between the different banks, trust companies, and credit unions. But the benefit of competition has pretty much been exhausted and now it's just a bunch of squabbling rent-seekers in a zero-sum game, since the people running the corporations are too busy maxing out revenues and cutting expenses each quarter to pay an iota of attention to providing necessary services to the customer in exchange for fair fees. Although investment bankers are doing quite well (for themselves, not necessarily for their customers) consumer banking really hasn't progressed much over the last 30 years. Even basic transactions like postdated check handling, real-time ATM transactions, or chip card transactions with at least rudimentary encryption are frequently not available here.

Imma

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7388 on: April 03, 2018, 04:03:29 PM »


But... this means that if I were unemployed and applied for benefit, with (say) $20,000 saved up in the bank, they'd tell me I can access help in 6 months. "Well done, go away." If I went to the pub and put that $20,000 through the pokies and went back tomorrow, they'd give me assistance straight away. "You're an idiot, here's your cheque."



Which is why you need to provide bank statements in this country (the Netherlands, by the way). The government can't log into our bank accounts (thankfully) but through your social security number they can see all the bank accounts you have. So if you have accounts in your name that you haven't provided statements for, you're not going to receive any money.

I left that job around 2012 as I had a gut feeling this system was going too far, and I'm sure rules are even stricter these days. But I understand the need for stricter rules too, because I've seen so many people trying to win the benefits system.

I strongly believe in a welfare state and providing for people in need, but it's a fact that you're always going to have a minority of people who would rather not work even though they can. I did notice that those stricter rules actually don't work like they should: people who I felt deserved assistence didn't want to go through the bureaucratic process, while the people they were trying to weed out happily filled in form after form and jumped through every hoop to get what they wanted. They know how to go around the rules.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7389 on: April 03, 2018, 08:42:59 PM »
I strongly believe in a welfare state and providing for people in need, but it's a fact that you're always going to have a minority of people who would rather not work even though they can.
Of course. However, I believe it is important to give lazy people money. My reasoning is that a lazy person will always be a lazy person.

1. Lazy person + dole = produces nothing at $10k pa cost to society
2. Lazy person + no dole = becomes a criminal, not only produces nothing but actually destroys things + $50k cost to society in paying for their imprisonment
3. Lazy person + forced into a job = $50k cost to society in wages, and since there are not enough jobs for everyone, a hardworking person misses out on a job.

The first is overall the cheapest option for society. The second is more expensive and leads to suffering for all concerned. The last is unjust to hardworking people. So I say: give them the dole, it's the least hassle and drama and cost for all concerned.

Quote
I did notice that those stricter rules actually don't work like they should: people who I felt deserved assistence didn't want to go through the bureaucratic process, while the people they were trying to weed out happily filled in form after form and jumped through every hoop to get what they wanted. They know how to go around the rules.
The first group of people would, I think, have sorted something out for themselves. Family or friends helped them and they eventually got some paid employment, where they worked hard and produced goods and services for the rest of society, and spent their money so that other people could be productively employed.

Every society, Adam Smith said, has a certain portion of the population who produce nothing but draw an income anyway. He meant the rentier class - which, broadly-speaking, is what people on this forum aspire to be. But the same applies to most managers, and to a minority of people on welfare. It's simply part of the friction of the machine of society, friction producing waste heat, energy going to nothing productive or useful. That's our aspiration. As Wendell Berry said, the ultimate aspiration of the United States - and I would argue, the West generally - seems to be unemployment. Always saying "thank god it's Friday", and looking forward to lunch, then knock-off time, then the weekend, then public holidays, then annual leave, and finally retirement.

The only difference between FIREs and the dole bludger is that FIREs expect to do a few years' work first, but they also expect to draw more money than the unemployment benefit, so there you go.

And this is why I don't think many of us are in a position to judge dole bludgers.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7390 on: April 03, 2018, 09:17:57 PM »
1. Lazy person + dole = produces nothing at $10k pa cost to society
2. Lazy person + no dole = becomes a criminal, not only produces nothing but actually destroys things + $50k cost to society in paying for their imprisonment
3. Lazy person + forced into a job = $50k cost to society in wages, and since there are not enough jobs for everyone, a hardworking person misses out on a job.
I think there are a number of shaky assumptions there:
1) lazy people only cost $10k if they're on the dole
2) all lazy people, absent the dole, will become criminals
3) there's a shortage of work to be done, and that the labor market is a zero-sum game
Quote
The only difference between FIREs and the dole bludger is that FIREs expect to do a few years' work first, but they also expect to draw more money than the unemployment benefit, so there you go.

And this is why I don't think many of us are in a position to judge dole bludgers.
I strongly disagree here.  I won't presume to speak for everyone else here, but in my opinion, there's a world of difference.  The money that a FIREd person has represents an accumulated unpaid debt that society owes that person for the value they have contributed to the economy by their work.  They have chosen (or in some cases, been forced) to set aside some of their compensation, so that when the time comes that they either cannot or do not wish to work longer, society owes them enough that they can call in that debt and live comfortably.  A dole bludger, roundly speaking, has not contributed to society and therefore is owed nothing, from a purely economic perspective.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7391 on: April 03, 2018, 10:41:02 PM »
I think there are a number of shaky assumptions there:
1) lazy people only cost $10k if they're on the dole
2) all lazy people, absent the dole, will become criminals
3) there's a shortage of work to be done, and that the labor market is a zero-sum game
The expense of #1 is typically greater than $10k because of the vast array of bureaucracy to see whether or not they "deserve" the $10k. I would suggest this could be reduced by harassing them less and just giving them money.

#2 is a reasonable assumption since lazy or not, people have to eat. Absent a government subsidy, they'll seek other sources of income. In the modern West, that is mostly burglary, robbery and illicit drugs. If the alternative is starving and/or dying of exposure, they'll become criminals. Unless you suppose that necessity stops people being lazy? Experience does not suggest that this is the case.

The labour market need not be a zero-sum game, and of course we get the multiplier effect and so on. But broadly-speaking, there are far more unemployed than there are job vacancies. There are 729,000 registered unemployed in Australia, and 220,000 job vacancies. Of course, not all vacancies are advertised, but not all people seeking jobs are officially unemployed - some are uni students, some are getting disability pensions or the like, some are working part-time and would like to work more hours, and so on, and this is roughly the same number of people again, depending how you count it, at least half to more than a million. And of course, many vacancies require higher qualifications or experience which are typically found in people already employed full-time, rather than in the long-term unemployed.

But roughly-speaking, there are 4 people for every vacancy. So a job given to A means B, C and D miss out. If one of the four is hardworking, and one is lazy, I would rather the hardworking one got the opportunity. They'll make more of it, and will be better for the rest of the people in the workplace to work with.

Quote
I strongly disagree here.  I won't presume to speak for everyone else here, but in my opinion, there's a world of difference.  The money that a FIREd person has represents an accumulated unpaid debt that society owes that person for the value they have contributed to the economy by their work.  They have chosen (or in some cases, been forced) to set aside some of their compensation, so that when the time comes that they either cannot or do not wish to work longer, society owes them enough that they can call in that debt and live comfortably.  A dole bludger, roundly speaking, has not contributed to society and therefore is owed nothing, from a purely economic perspective.
Of course you disagree. The mentality of we wealthy is by necessity, "We deserve our wealth, and the poor deserve their poverty."

The increased wealth you and I have are not solely from our own work. Someone else built the roads, the railways, the power lines, someone helped take our mothers safely through childbirth, and so on. Other people's work has enabled and multiplied our wealth. Some of us may pay this back in the form of taxes, but most of us try to minimise this. Our wealth is built on the backs of poorer people.

"More than anyone else, perhaps, the miner can stand as the type of the manual worker, not only because his work is so exaggeratedly awful, but also because it is so vitally necessary and yet so remote from our experience, so invisible, as it were, that we are capable of forgetting it as we forget the blood in our veins. In a way it is even humiliating to watch coal-miners working. It raises in you a momentary doubt about your own status as an ‘intellectual’ and a superior person generally. For it is brought home to you, at least while you are watching, that it is only because miners sweat their guts out that superior persons can remain superior. You and I and the editor of the Times Lit. Supp., and the poets and the Archbishop of Canterbury and Comrade X, author ofMarxism for Infants— all of us really owe the comparative decency of our lives to poor drudges underground, blackened to the eyes, with their throats full of coal dust, driving their shovels forward with arms and belly muscles of steel." - Down The Mine, George Orwell

Nowadays the "poor drudges" are mostly not in the West, but in China and India, in the deserts of the oilfields of the Middle East. Our wealth is not solely due to ourselves, but borrowed from their labour. We don't like to think about this too much, it's bad for our "pulled myself up by my own bootstraps!" narrative. But there it is.

Society is not indebted to us. We are indebted to society.

We apply double standards. This is why Australia's Foreign Minister can claim her boyfriend as her spouse while claiming $32k in benefits for him, but is not obliged to call him her spouse when declaring his financial interests. [https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/apr/04/welfare-crackdown-on-relationships-a-double-standard-not-applied-to-mps] Still less is her income means-tested based on his, the way it would be if she were drawing a sole parent's benefit. We have high standards and careful scrutiny of the people receiving $10,000 of public money, but are lax and indifferent to those getting $500,000 of public money.

None of us "deserve" our wealth, still less do we "deserve" to be idle. We are idle or not, according to our nature. And this is why I say: just give them the money and leave them alone. Just not, that ye be judged, some dude said.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 10:44:28 PM by Kyle Schuant »

former player

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7392 on: April 04, 2018, 05:23:04 AM »
Yes to the previous post.

Another thing that gets my goat is the smugness of those who have accumulated wealth not by earnings but by general increases in the value of real estate and the stock market.  Yes, well done for getting a bit of capital together and investing it wisely, possibly taking advantage of the gearing available on real estate.

But the real increase in wealth by these methods is a result of society as a whole increasing the wealth of the country as a whole.  Which is down to innovation and productivity and trading.   The tide has risen and people have floated upwards on top of it.

Too often those people seem to think that it's all down to their own efforts, when it is not.  Or they think it happens as a matter of course, when it only happens because there is good governance and a society ruled by law that allows economic activity to flourish.  The same investments in Somalia, or Syria, or Zimbabwe would have left the same people impoverished and struggling.  Most of all those people complain about the taxes without which good governance and the rule of law are impossible.

Gah!

MrsDinero

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7393 on: April 04, 2018, 07:16:33 AM »
A couple weeks ago a friend posted a picture of a new car.  It was followed by a lot of "wows" and "congrats".   They detailed all the awesome features including stuff that can get paired to their phone.  From reading the comments, the friend revealed the last 8 cars they have "owned" were leases, including this one.

On one hand they are exactly the type of people leases are made for, people that have to the newest and latest, on the other hand 8 leased cars is almost 2 decades of car payments!  I can't wrap my head around that.

marielle

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7394 on: April 04, 2018, 07:20:34 AM »
A couple weeks ago a friend posted a picture of a new car.  It was followed by a lot of "wows" and "congrats".   They detailed all the awesome features including stuff that can get paired to their phone.  From reading the comments, the friend revealed the last 8 cars they have "owned" were leases, including this one.

On one hand they are exactly the type of people leases are made for, people that have to the newest and latest, on the other hand 8 leased cars is almost 2 decades of car payments!  I can't wrap my head around that.

Isn't a lease 3 years? So that's 24 years (after the current one) of likely $500+/month payments. Even worse!

VaCPA

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7395 on: April 04, 2018, 07:46:11 AM »
"More than anyone else, perhaps, the miner can stand as the type of the manual worker, not only because his work is so exaggeratedly awful, but also because it is so vitally necessary and yet so remote from our experience, so invisible, as it were, that we are capable of forgetting it as we forget the blood in our veins. In a way it is even humiliating to watch coal-miners working. It raises in you a momentary doubt about your own status as an ‘intellectual’ and a superior person generally. For it is brought home to you, at least while you are watching, that it is only because miners sweat their guts out that superior persons can remain superior. You and I and the editor of the Times Lit. Supp., and the poets and the Archbishop of Canterbury and Comrade X, author ofMarxism for Infants— all of us really owe the comparative decency of our lives to poor drudges underground, blackened to the eyes, with their throats full of coal dust, driving their shovels forward with arms and belly muscles of steel." - Down The Mine, George Orwell

That is a really great passage from Orwell. We recently had some landscaping work done which took the guy we hired 2 days to finish. I was having a conversation with my wife afterwards, about how I feel guilty and even a little embarrassed hiring people often older than myself to do this backbreaking work while I just hand them a check and go to my cushy office job. She didn't really feel the same way, since they were eager for the work and wanted the money.

Obviously my landscaping isn't critical to the functioning of society like mining or other types of blue collar work, but that sentiment still resonates with me.

MrsDinero

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7396 on: April 04, 2018, 08:28:39 AM »
A couple weeks ago a friend posted a picture of a new car.  It was followed by a lot of "wows" and "congrats".   They detailed all the awesome features including stuff that can get paired to their phone.  From reading the comments, the friend revealed the last 8 cars they have "owned" were leases, including this one.

On one hand they are exactly the type of people leases are made for, people that have to the newest and latest, on the other hand 8 leased cars is almost 2 decades of car payments!  I can't wrap my head around that.


Isn't a lease 3 years? So that's 24 years (after the current one) of likely $500+/month payments. Even worse!

I should have added, between her and her husband, but I know she tends to trade in the car before the lease is up, so the majority are hers.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7397 on: April 05, 2018, 05:33:28 AM »
I was having a conversation with my wife afterwards, about how I feel guilty and even a little embarrassed hiring people often older than myself to do this backbreaking work while I just hand them a check and go to my cushy office job.
Pay him more, then.

Today we had a window cleaner come. He'd looked at the place last week, counted the windows and quoted $78 and "about an hour." I assumed he'd be here on his own. But today he did the outside, his wife the inside. A lot of glass. About 1hr45' work. S, under $20 an hour for each of them. By comparison, the minimum wage here is about $17, and we expect to pay more since a lot of their "work" is travel time, refilling bottles and cleaning their cloths and all that. I said, "You undercharged us, double it." He said, "No, there's a formula" - he'd come to us from a franchise company, and my impression was that it was $X per window. I suppose that sometimes that many windows would be 2 hours and many times only 20 minutes, so it'd even out, but I still felt bad. I said, "At least give me your business cards so I can refer you people." He did so.

But if you think the guy is underpaid, pay him more - or at least refer him more business.

VaCPA

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7398 on: April 05, 2018, 07:06:58 AM »
I was having a conversation with my wife afterwards, about how I feel guilty and even a little embarrassed hiring people often older than myself to do this backbreaking work while I just hand them a check and go to my cushy office job.
Pay him more, then.

But if you think the guy is underpaid, pay him more - or at least refer him more business.

I don't think he was underpaid. We paid him a good chunk of change for what he did. If I'd aggressively shopped around I'm sure I could've gotten it done cheaper but I liked him and he was eager for the work.

I think the feeling has more to do with how much more I presumably make than him, for doing work that is far less difficult, at least physically.

Hirondelle

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7399 on: April 05, 2018, 07:35:10 AM »
A couple weeks ago a friend posted a picture of a new car.  It was followed by a lot of "wows" and "congrats".   They detailed all the awesome features including stuff that can get paired to their phone.  From reading the comments, the friend revealed the last 8 cars they have "owned" were leases, including this one.

On one hand they are exactly the type of people leases are made for, people that have to the newest and latest, on the other hand 8 leased cars is almost 2 decades of car payments!  I can't wrap my head around that.

I'm really hoping/waiting for the day where a new car will NOT be followed by wows and congrats anymore. That it's the default to not own a car yourself and that needing one is a form of discomfort. Seems like that day is still far far away though.