Overheard on Facebook

[BTDretire]

I used to be OCD like that, and then one day, I just...stopped.  No idea what caused it.  I focus now on making sure I have documentation that I need.  For instance, when I pay something off, I want that receipt.

I learned that lesson 42 years ago. I had taken out a small student loan at the local community college,  it was a minor amount less than $1,000. I had paid it back in full. The receipts, ah, well thrown in a drawer. They came after me asking for payment, I had some receipts but not all. I didn't have the receipt for a $300 payment.
 It was a one on one interview, I insisted I  paid it which I did. A couple weeks later I got a call that the account was closed, she said she found my record of payment in the
next file behind mine. I'll never know for sure if she just believed me or if she truely found the record. I think their system was a bit shoddy.  As was mine, at that time.
Now, I have a file cabinet with folders with many catagories, It is perged at the end of the year and those records are marked with the year and put in a box with previous years.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Most of that criticism comes from other mothers/women.  Let's face it, (some of) you women tend to be horrific to one another.  Whereas if a man doesn't mow his lawn one week, his man neighbors likely think "great Jim didn't mow his lawn so now it won't look bad if I don't mow mine."

It's true that females are vicious to each other, but the vast majority of the undone housework is not visible outside the home. So that's not where the criticism comes from.

Ever hear a kid whine when dinner isn't ready on time or when they're late to a birthday party? How about a working parent who has an important business meeting that day but whose suit is still at the dry cleaner's, or who has just come back from a long day at work to trip over something left in the living room? That's where most of the pressure comes from, and it's directed at the designated housework-doer.

Sounds awfully specific, like maybe it's specific to your home?  Maybe you should take it up with your family, I thought you were referring to the societal pressures placed on women (mostly by other women) to have a perfect home.

I am referring to the societal pressures: when you're confined to the home, the home IS your society. When it's composed of small humans who need your attention now-now-now, as toddlers do, the work really never is finished but when the rest of the population needs or wants something, where do they go? To the full-time caregiver, not the person who just got home from work. That's generally the woman but it's not a truly gender specific thing.

As to my family, I never married so I don't have anyone making an extra mess in my home. Just one teenaged daughter, and I work full-time so she doesn't expect caregiving as such. But of course I'm the one who gets asked what's for dinner, being the adult and all.

[shelivesthedream]

It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Most of that criticism comes from other mothers/women.  Let's face it, (some of) you women tend to be horrific to one another.  Whereas if a man doesn't mow his lawn one week, his man neighbors likely think "great Jim didn't mow his lawn so now it won't look bad if I don't mow mine."

It's true that females are vicious to each other, but the vast majority of the undone housework is not visible outside the home. So that's not where the criticism comes from.

Ever hear a kid whine when dinner isn't ready on time or when they're late to a birthday party? How about a working parent who has an important business meeting that day but whose suit is still at the dry cleaner's, or who has just come back from a long day at work to trip over something left in the living room? That's where most of the pressure comes from, and it's directed at the designated housework-doer.

Sounds awfully specific, like maybe it's specific to your home?  Maybe you should take it up with your family, I thought you were referring to the societal pressures placed on women (mostly by other women) to have a perfect home.

I am referring to the societal pressures: when you're confined to the home, the home IS your society. When it's composed of small humans who need your attention now-now-now, as toddlers do, the work really never is finished but when the rest of the population needs or wants something, where do they go? To the full-time caregiver, not the person who just got home from work. That's generally the woman but it's not a truly gender specific thing.

As to my family, I never married so I don't have anyone making an extra mess in my home. Just one teenaged daughter, and I work full-time so she doesn't expect caregiving as such. But of course I'm the one who gets asked what's for dinner, being the adult and all.

I didn't mean to start a discussion about who is oppressing or not oppressing women in the home. As much as I occasionally seethe with vengeful rage and wish that "you men" could experience being a woman doing [traditional women's thing I am doing that sucks or traditional men's thing that I am being patronised for] for a day, I don't really want men to have a sucky life just to make women feel better about the sucky bits of their lives. The world wouldn't be better if men felt intense pressure to keep their lawn perfect in case other men judged them as morally bad humans. As my father always used to say, two wrongs don't make a right. We need to take the pressure off women to be perfect, not put it on men.

I don't know where the idea comes from (whether from society, their mother or childhood, other women, family) that women need to be perfect, but I do know that a lot of women feel that not being a good homemaker makes them a morally bad person - "I can't even get my irrational screaming child dressed on time in the morning, let alone bake cupcakes and iron the curtains - I must be such a failure, I bet every other woman in the world has children who literally never cry and spend the whole day skipping around holding hands and then come inside to eat all their dinner without a fuss. What am I doing wrong? It must be because I am a terrible person and ruining my children's lives forever."

It's just that for all the push to get women into the workplace and get rid of the glass ceiling and make us equal in our professional lives, it ain't never gonna happen if men don't correspondingly step up at home. We also need to get rid of the glass... uh... mop! We need to recognise that there is working outside the home (which I think is fairly prestigious) and there is working inside the home (which no one gives a crap about except when dinner is late) and they are both WORK and they are both IMPORTANT and they BOTH need to be shared out fairly. But somehow study after study says that women work full time outside the home and then work way over half time inside the home as well. Why? What are we going to do about it? I think that's one of the big questions of the century.

(My answer, as drop-in-the-ocean as it is, is to bring all my future children up to do the same chores. Every single one of them will get a go at doing every chore, so girls will have to mow the lawn and boys will have to iron. There will be no learned helplessness when it comes to certain chores. As for me and my husband, I foresee that I may well do most of the housework and childcare across our lives, because I currently work part time and don't expect that to increase in the future. However, at the moment it works out well that when he is busy, I do more housework, and when I am busy, he does more housework. But I damn well feel appreciated doing it, and that he recognises that it is an entire job by itself and takes up a lot of time. As someone who is very aware of the history of feminist discourse over the last fifty or so years, I often feel bad that I work less and do more housework, but then I feel bad for feeling bad. Women didn't fight for my right to work, they fought for my right to do whatever the fuck I want, including work. So I'm going to do just that.)

[theadvicist]

(My answer, as drop-in-the-ocean as it is, is to bring all my future children up to do the same chores. Every single one of them will get a go at doing every chore, so girls will have to mow the lawn and boys will have to iron. There will be no learned helplessness when it comes to certain chores. As for me and my husband, I foresee that I may well do most of the housework and childcare across our lives, because I currently work part time and don't expect that to increase in the future. However, at the moment it works out well that when he is busy, I do more housework, and when I am busy, he does more housework. But I damn well feel appreciated doing it, and that he recognises that it is an entire job by itself and takes up a lot of time. As someone who is very aware of the history of feminist discourse over the last fifty or so years, I often feel bad that I work less and do more housework, but then I feel bad for feeling bad. Women didn't fight for my right to work, they fought for my right to do whatever the fuck I want, including work. So I'm going to do just that.)

This is great.

My upbringing didn't mean I followed that script though: I had a 'traditional' upbringing in that my father did NOTHING at home, like ever, and my mum did EVERYTHING and WORKED FULL-TIME!

I could see that was illogical because, you know, I have eyes.

When I got married I said, "So you will be creating half the consumption and mess of this household. How would you like to divide it's maintenance?" and we each picked things we like to do, and traded off what we don't. I cook, he cleans etc. The one thing we couldn't agree on was who should change the bed linen, so we do it together, and now it's kind of fun.

Most of my female friends do WAY WAY WAY more than their husbands, and endlessly complain about it. And I'm like, why do you live like that? Of course no-one else is going to do the laundry if all that happens when they don't is... you do it.

So yes to historic inequalities etc, but I actually put a lot of this on women themselves. These are educated, working, young women. Why didn't they have the same conversation? Why did they just start doing everything, whilst also complaining about it? I just don't get it.

[shelivesthedream]

(My answer, as drop-in-the-ocean as it is, is to bring all my future children up to do the same chores. Every single one of them will get a go at doing every chore, so girls will have to mow the lawn and boys will have to iron. There will be no learned helplessness when it comes to certain chores. As for me and my husband, I foresee that I may well do most of the housework and childcare across our lives, because I currently work part time and don't expect that to increase in the future. However, at the moment it works out well that when he is busy, I do more housework, and when I am busy, he does more housework. But I damn well feel appreciated doing it, and that he recognises that it is an entire job by itself and takes up a lot of time. As someone who is very aware of the history of feminist discourse over the last fifty or so years, I often feel bad that I work less and do more housework, but then I feel bad for feeling bad. Women didn't fight for my right to work, they fought for my right to do whatever the fuck I want, including work. So I'm going to do just that.)

This is great.

My upbringing didn't mean I followed that script though: I had a 'traditional' upbringing in that my father did NOTHING at home, like ever, and my mum did EVERYTHING and WORKED FULL-TIME!

I could see that was illogical because, you know, I have eyes.

When I got married I said, "So you will be creating half the consumption and mess of this household. How would you like to divide it's maintenance?" and we each picked things we like to do, and traded off what we don't. I cook, he cleans etc. The one thing we couldn't agree on was who should change the bed linen, so we do it together, and now it's kind of fun.

Most of my female friends do WAY WAY WAY more than their husbands, and endlessly complain about it. And I'm like, why do you live like that? Of course no-one else is going to do the laundry if all that happens when they don't is... you do it.

So yes to historic inequalities etc, but I actually put a lot of this on women themselves. These are educated, working, young women. Why didn't they have the same conversation? Why did they just start doing everything, whilst also complaining about it? I just don't get it.

I don't really understand why some people never seem to have 'the conversation', but there is a lot of research to say that both partners in any given relationship always feel like they are doing more housework than they are, so maybe the person who feels like they are doing less is actually doing half? Our 'conversation' when we first started living together ended up with the following rules:
1. We each get to designate one particularly hated chore that is always the other person's job. My job is taking out the bin, his is cleaning the loo. We are allowed to ask the other person to do that job if we think they have not done it.
2. For everything else, if you care that much, do it yourself.

Rule #2 is crucial and avoids the tyranny of one partner imposing their ideas on the other or of dividing up the chores, one partner not doing one of 'their' chores, and the other partner doing it for them because they can't stand it. It also allows for different things being important to us (like if he needs the bathroom to be spotless but I don't care, or if I have to hoover in all the corners but he'd just do the middle of the room). It means he is never allowed to complain that I haven't done something or that I've done it wrong, because if it's that important to him he can put the rubber gloves on and get on with it. It means we sometimes live in squalour when we both feel too busy to do housework but we never have fights about it because the only options are 1. put up with it, or 2. do it. There is no complain or nag option.

I do wonder if this will have to change when we have children, because we'll need to be more organised about making sure everything gets done in a timely way. I'm not sure. I think we might have to be firmer about doing laundry before we run out of clothes or doing dishes before we realise there is nothing to eat off, but maybe the rest can stay as it is.

[mamagoose]

When I got married I said, "So you will be creating half the consumption and mess of this household. How would you like to divide it's maintenance?" and we each picked things we like to do, and traded off what we don't. I cook, he cleans etc. The one thing we couldn't agree on was who should change the bed linen, so we do it together, and now it's kind of fun.

Most of my female friends do WAY WAY WAY more than their husbands, and endlessly complain about it. And I'm like, why do you live like that? Of course no-one else is going to do the laundry if all that happens when they don't is... you do it.

So yes to historic inequalities etc, but I actually put a lot of this on women themselves. These are educated, working, young women. Why didn't they have the same conversation? Why did they just start doing everything, whilst also complaining about it? I just don't get it.

I totally get this logic, and we had this discussion during marriage prep counseling. We sat down with a list of chores and said who would like to do which chores (down to the detailed level of "who will shop for family Christmas gifts"). In a perfect world it would follow your logic where we each clean up a somewhat equal portion of the messes we create (i.e. wash your own dishes, fold your own laundry). In real life, we have a big ass yard that needs mowing, so my husband spends a lot of his chore time maintaining stupid stupid stupid lawn that just keeps growing even though we never water it! If we didn't have the yardwork tipping the scales in his direction, our interior chore division would be straight up 50/50 because he's a great partner. Stupid lawn.

[Kitsune]

I do wonder if this will have to change when we have children, because we'll need to be more organised about making sure everything gets done in a timely way. I'm not sure. I think we might have to be firmer about doing laundry before we run out of clothes or doing dishes before we realise there is nothing to eat off, but maybe the rest can stay as it is.

Your 'if you care so much, you do it' rule was a problem for us... and then we had children, and it was flat-out unsustainable.

My husband DIDN'T care about the state of the floor, the state of the bathtub, and the tidying, and just wanted to play video games. BUT, if you have a learning-to-crawl child in the picture: they are taking a bath (as opposed to a shower) so a non-scuzzy tub is a plus. If they throw meat off their tray at dinnertime and you don't clean the floor, they WILL find it and eat it 24 hours later (eewwwww). If there's stuff everywhere, they don't SEE their toys, and either destroy everything or become kinda frazzled and harder to deal with because there's too much going on. Like, if it was just me occasionally wanting a bath or clean floors, fine, I'd do them every so often... but it kind of affects an innocent third party too, so get off your tush and help, y'know?

In our case: I'm not a neat-freak, but I'm pretty sure floors should be cleaned before cat hair starts rolling down the hallway in clumps, that the bathtub needs a quick scrub before there are visible rings around it, etc. Functionally, this means that I/we do dishes every night and run the dishwasher, put away our things daily, vacuum the floors 1-2x/week depending on season (kids+mud...), wash the floors and bathroom and everything else maybe every 2 weeks, and do the dusting... erm... every month or two, maybe, when we get around to it. Maybe. Not a huge amount of cleaning, overall, but when it doesn't get done the place gets nasty, and you can't live in a small space and not put things away. We'd fight about that every so often (pattern: I'd do it all. I'd pitch a fit. He'd do 50% for a few weeks. And then it'd start slipping, and slipping, and then 3 months later I'd do it all and pitch a fit, repeat).

What stopped it was when I realized that I was working 50-hour weeks, doing a good 80% of the childcare, running ALL the errands, doing ALL the cleaning, and cooking ALL the food. While he worked 35 hours/week from home. I, erm... lost it. And basically said that this was it, that the pattern was breaking, and that we were FIXING THIS or I was LEAVING, and I MEANT IT (and I meant it. I'd visited apartments, I meant it so bad. It wasn't an aimless threat, it was a 'I am letting you know that this is unsustainable for me; we can fix the situation or I can remove myself from it, your choice'). That was over a year ago.

There's been occasional backsliding, with apologies and acknowledgement, and the housework, outdoor work, and childcare is actually now split in a way that gives us equal free time, which is really all I was asking for. The house is never neat and 'perfect', but it's livable and good, and that's all I'm asking for too. But the fact that it took me hitting the wall and promising I'd leave... honestly, I'm still frustrated that it took that much.

[Kitsune]

the housework, outdoor work, and childcare is actually now split in a way that gives us equal free time, which is really all I was asking for.

Oh my god. I'm using this next time we have to have a sit down about chores. I never thought about it that way but that's exactly what I'm looking for every time we have this conversation.

YES! And this also assumes that if I'm suddenly working 20 hours/week while he works 50, then OBVIOUSLY I'm doing more housework. But seeing him at the computer playing video games while I'm taking care of a child AND tidying AND throwing together dinner, all at the same time? Watch steam come out my ears (and then very calm words about how this is unacceptable, and shape up, come out my mouth).

[theadvicist]

When I got married I said, "So you will be creating half the consumption and mess of this household. How would you like to divide it's maintenance?" and we each picked things we like to do, and traded off what we don't. I cook, he cleans etc. The one thing we couldn't agree on was who should change the bed linen, so we do it together, and now it's kind of fun.

Most of my female friends do WAY WAY WAY more than their husbands, and endlessly complain about it. And I'm like, why do you live like that? Of course no-one else is going to do the laundry if all that happens when they don't is... you do it.

So yes to historic inequalities etc, but I actually put a lot of this on women themselves. These are educated, working, young women. Why didn't they have the same conversation? Why did they just start doing everything, whilst also complaining about it? I just don't get it.

I totally get this logic, and we had this discussion during marriage prep counseling. We sat down with a list of chores and said who would like to do which chores (down to the detailed level of "who will shop for family Christmas gifts"). In a perfect world it would follow your logic where we each clean up a somewhat equal portion of the messes we create (i.e. wash your own dishes, fold your own laundry). In real life, we have a big ass yard that needs mowing, so my husband spends a lot of his chore time maintaining stupid stupid stupid lawn that just keeps growing even though we never water it! If we didn't have the yardwork tipping the scales in his direction, our interior chore division would be straight up 50/50 because he's a great partner. Stupid lawn.

Sorry, that wasn't my logic at all. When I said, "how would you divide it's maintenance" I was working on the principle that by creating half of the mess and consumption we were each responsible for half it's maintenance, but actually, our split sounds quite like yours. It's not you clean up your mess, I'll clean up mine, it's: I'll do all the cooking because I enjoy it. Therefore I'll do all the food shopping because I'll know what we need. He does all cleaning. Everything. He also washes both our cars. I do all laundry. We have a ridiculous level of detail too eg. he organises all transportation at home (train tickets, taxis etc) I do all international travel (hotels etc).

I sometimes feel like Leonard and Sheldon in the Big Bang Theory with their room mate agreement, but honestly, although it sounds kind of mean-spirited to split everything so exactly, actually, it means we have zero arguments, and certainly far less resentment than most other couples I know. We each know what we have to do, and we get on with it.

And we're not massively strict about things - he'll cook dinner if I'm feeling rough, I'll wipe down the bathroom if we've got company and I know he hasn't had time.

Also, his father once said, "Who cleans your windows?!" clearly implying no-one did. I said, "your son, but if you don't think he's doing a good job, there's a rag under the sink!". Yeah, he doesn't comment on our house anymore.

[RedBaron3]

big Facebook debate here over night, our property values are increasing exponentially, so our property taxes are increasing as well. but taxes are capped at 10% growth per year, and values are going faster than that. And everyone is furious. It's simple math. my house is up like 20k and it's going to cost me $500 this year. I would do unforgivable things to get that rate of return with any of my other investments.

I am also in PA and received an assessment hearing notice stating that the school board is appealing my assessment as my purchase price in January 2015 was 30% higher than the previous county assessment.  This will surely raise my taxes ~30% as well.  I can cover it and try to look at the positives (it's another tax deduction and it's actual fair since that's the true property value) but I'm sure others would be in trouble, especially if they just recently bought the home with payments at the top of their budget. 

[Kitsune]

Also, his father once said, "Who cleans your windows?!" clearly implying no-one did. I said, "your son, but if you don't think he's doing a good job, there's a rag under the sink!". Yeah, he doesn't comment on our house anymore.

I'm saving this to use on my in-laws.

They've recently been making snarky comments because we hired a cleaning person (who comes for a half-day every 2 weeks for a total monthly cost of about 130$CAD). Reason: I have started working more hours at my job, taking away from the available household maintenance hours, and so, after paying the cleaning person, we are making 563$ MORE per month than we were before. This is a sensible expense, yo. Plus I'd rather work my job than clean my house, and if I'm gonna make more money doing something I prefer doing, then, hey! :) (Also, this gives us the weekend time to a) spend time with our daughter, and b) do the deck-building, barn-building, tree-planting, etc - things that would cost 20-60$/hour to hire out, as opposed to 15$/hour for the cleaner. THIS IS A SENSIBLE TIME/MONEY ALLOCATION, and it leaves us with the most money and the most done by the end of summer.

My in-laws are pulling the 'but cleaning people are so expensive' and 'only RICH people hire people to clean their houses, who do you think you are'. And I'm steaming mad that they pull this stuff when we invite them over for dinner. Like, you're a guest in our home. Appreciate what's offered, say thank you, and cut the fucking judgement, or get the fuck out and go bitch about us ELSEWHERE.

I am... very frustrated with them right now.

[MrsDinero]

I have 2 new ones:

1.  Is a single dad who lives in a 1 bedroom apartment with his kid.  He was planning to move into a 2 bedroom to give them more space, but decided to use that money to buy a second car in case his first one breaks down.  His first one is a 2010 BMW paid for with cash.  He plans to buy the second one with cash too.  His reasoning is since he is not planning on financing it is a good financial move.

2.  Family of 4 with 1 spouse as the bread winner and 1 spouse who does not work.  Working spouse makes a decent income (approx $75k) They pay on average of $1500 a month for full daycare because non-working spouse "can't get anything done with the kids at home".  The family has more than $40k in credit card debt and probably $30k in car loans, they are currently on an IRS payment plan because they didn't realize an employer (2 jobs ago) wasn't taking out taxes. 

They are in the process of buying/building a $350k home in a medium cost of living area.  The reason they are buying this new home is because their current 2500 sq ft home doesn't fit all their stuff (they have a storage unit) and they can't afford rent on a house that would fit all their stuff "because the landlords expect us to pay their management fees".  They said the new house will only be about $100-$200 more than their current rent.  Which I guess isn't bad except their current rent eats 42% of their monthly income (not counting utilities).  They also constantly complain about relatives who try to hit them up for money and can't understand why everyone thinks they are "rich". 

[onlykelsey]

Also, his father once said, "Who cleans your windows?!" clearly implying no-one did. I said, "your son, but if you don't think he's doing a good job, there's a rag under the sink!". Yeah, he doesn't comment on our house anymore.

I'm saving this to use on my in-laws.

They've recently been making snarky comments because we hired a cleaning person (who comes for a half-day every 2 weeks for a total monthly cost of about 130$CAD). Reason: I have started working more hours at my job, taking away from the available household maintenance hours, and so, after paying the cleaning person, we are making 563$ MORE per month than we were before. This is a sensible expense, yo. Plus I'd rather work my job than clean my house, and if I'm gonna make more money doing something I prefer doing, then, hey! :) (Also, this gives us the weekend time to a) spend time with our daughter, and b) do the deck-building, barn-building, tree-planting, etc - things that would cost 20-60$/hour to hire out, as opposed to 15$/hour for the cleaner. THIS IS A SENSIBLE TIME/MONEY ALLOCATION, and it leaves us with the most money and the most done by the end of summer.

My in-laws are pulling the 'but cleaning people are so expensive' and 'only RICH people hire people to clean their houses, who do you think you are'. And I'm steaming mad that they pull this stuff when we invite them over for dinner. Like, you're a guest in our home. Appreciate what's offered, say thank you, and cut the fucking judgement, or get the fuck out and go bitch about us ELSEWHERE.

I am... very frustrated with them right now.

I hate that everyone thinks if you hire someone to clean inside your house (traditionally female work), you are lazy and entitled and rich.  if you hire someone to landscape, fix your car, build a deck or wash your car (traditionally male work), you're golden!

I don't hire anyone, but will happily hire someone if it makes sense.

[zephyr911]

I have 2 new ones:

1.  Is a single dad who lives in a 1 bedroom apartment with his kid.  He was planning to move into a 2 bedroom to give them more space, but decided to use that money to buy a second car in case his first one breaks down.  His first one is a 2010 BMW paid for with cash.  He plans to buy the second one with cash too.  His reasoning is since he is not planning on financing it is a good financial move.

2.  Family of 4 with 1 spouse as the bread winner and 1 spouse who does not work.  Working spouse makes a decent income (approx $75k) They pay on average of $1500 a month for full daycare because non-working spouse "can't get anything done with the kids at home".  The family has more than $40k in credit card debt and probably $30k in car loans, they are currently on an IRS payment plan because they didn't realize an employer (2 jobs ago) wasn't taking out taxes. 

They are in the process of buying/building a $350k home in a medium cost of living area.  The reason they are buying this new home is because their current 2500 sq ft home doesn't fit all their stuff (they have a storage unit) and they can't afford rent on a house that would fit all their stuff "because the landlords expect us to pay their management fees".  They said the new house will only be about $100-$200 more than their current rent.  Which I guess isn't bad except their current rent eats 42% of their monthly income (not counting utilities).  They also constantly complain about relatives who try to hit them up for money and can't understand why everyone thinks they are "rich".

It's like flooring the pedal with no hands on the steering wheel and then bitching about how your car keeps getting dinged up. People who think/act this way are the reason MMM exists.

[MrsDinero]

I have 2 new ones:

1.  Is a single dad who lives in a 1 bedroom apartment with his kid.  He was planning to move into a 2 bedroom to give them more space, but decided to use that money to buy a second car in case his first one breaks down.  His first one is a 2010 BMW paid for with cash.  He plans to buy the second one with cash too.  His reasoning is since he is not planning on financing it is a good financial move.

2.  Family of 4 with 1 spouse as the bread winner and 1 spouse who does not work.  Working spouse makes a decent income (approx $75k) They pay on average of $1500 a month for full daycare because non-working spouse "can't get anything done with the kids at home".  The family has more than $40k in credit card debt and probably $30k in car loans, they are currently on an IRS payment plan because they didn't realize an employer (2 jobs ago) wasn't taking out taxes. 

They are in the process of buying/building a $350k home in a medium cost of living area.  The reason they are buying this new home is because their current 2500 sq ft home doesn't fit all their stuff (they have a storage unit) and they can't afford rent on a house that would fit all their stuff "because the landlords expect us to pay their management fees".  They said the new house will only be about $100-$200 more than their current rent.  Which I guess isn't bad except their current rent eats 42% of their monthly income (not counting utilities).  They also constantly complain about relatives who try to hit them up for money and can't understand why everyone thinks they are "rich".

It's like flooring the pedal with no hands on the steering wheel and then bitching about how your car keeps getting dinged up. People who think/act this way are the reason MMM exists.

I'm working on trying to not feel frustrated by what I see as repeated bad financial moves, but it is hard because these are people I care about and want nothing more than to see them succeed in life. 

[mm1970]

It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Most of that criticism comes from other mothers/women.  Let's face it, (some of) you women tend to be horrific to one another.  Whereas if a man doesn't mow his lawn one week, his man neighbors likely think "great Jim didn't mow his lawn so now it won't look bad if I don't mow mine."

\

i wonder who started the women are so mean to each other myth.

no woman has ever told me, upon meeting, that i should hurry up and have kids before my uterus falls out.

I have to admit, I don't think I've personally experienced that kind of criticism either.  Oh, long ago, my mom complained about my messy apartment. But I was single.  And messy.

I don't feel pressure from my friends to have a clean house or yard. 

What I do feel is pressure at work.  For some reason, if I take a  morning off to do something with the kids, it's noticed more than if my boss does it.

[mm1970]

(My answer, as drop-in-the-ocean as it is, is to bring all my future children up to do the same chores. Every single one of them will get a go at doing every chore, so girls will have to mow the lawn and boys will have to iron. There will be no learned helplessness when it comes to certain chores. As for me and my husband, I foresee that I may well do most of the housework and childcare across our lives, because I currently work part time and don't expect that to increase in the future. However, at the moment it works out well that when he is busy, I do more housework, and when I am busy, he does more housework. But I damn well feel appreciated doing it, and that he recognises that it is an entire job by itself and takes up a lot of time. As someone who is very aware of the history of feminist discourse over the last fifty or so years, I often feel bad that I work less and do more housework, but then I feel bad for feeling bad. Women didn't fight for my right to work, they fought for my right to do whatever the fuck I want, including work. So I'm going to do just that.)

This is great.

My upbringing didn't mean I followed that script though: I had a 'traditional' upbringing in that my father did NOTHING at home, like ever, and my mum did EVERYTHING and WORKED FULL-TIME!

I could see that was illogical because, you know, I have eyes.

When I got married I said, "So you will be creating half the consumption and mess of this household. How would you like to divide it's maintenance?" and we each picked things we like to do, and traded off what we don't. I cook, he cleans etc. The one thing we couldn't agree on was who should change the bed linen, so we do it together, and now it's kind of fun.

Most of my female friends do WAY WAY WAY more than their husbands, and endlessly complain about it. And I'm like, why do you live like that? Of course no-one else is going to do the laundry if all that happens when they don't is... you do it.

So yes to historic inequalities etc, but I actually put a lot of this on women themselves. These are educated, working, young women. Why didn't they have the same conversation? Why did they just start doing everything, whilst also complaining about it? I just don't get it.

My husband, you know, was a single guy who lived alone for 6 years before we married.

When we finally lived together, a couple of my girlfriends asked how I got him to do laundry.  My funny answer is: "I own more underwear".  (Which was true, he'd run out first!)  But really...the guy knows how to run a washing machine, and has since he was 18.

[mm1970]

1. We each get to designate one particularly hated chore that is always the other person's job. My job is taking out the bin, his is cleaning the loo. We are allowed to ask the other person to do that job if we think they have not done it.
2. For everything else, if you care that much, do it yourself.

Rule #2 is crucial and avoids the tyranny of one partner imposing their ideas on the other or of dividing up the chores, one partner not doing one of 'their' chores, and the other partner doing it for them because they can't stand it. It also allows for different things being important to us (like if he needs the bathroom to be spotless but I don't care, or if I have to hoover in all the corners but he'd just do the middle of the room). It means he is never allowed to complain that I haven't done something or that I've done it wrong, because if it's that important to him he can put the rubber gloves on and get on with it. It means we sometimes live in squalour when we both feel too busy to do housework but we never have fights about it because the only options are 1. put up with it, or 2. do it. There is no complain or nag option.

I do wonder if this will have to change when we have children, because we'll need to be more organised about making sure everything gets done in a timely way. I'm not sure. I think we might have to be firmer about doing laundry before we run out of clothes or doing dishes before we realise there is nothing to eat off, but maybe the rest can stay as it is

Kitsune put it very well in her followup posts, so I don't have too much to add!

For our #2, our rule was only that you cannot complain about how someone else did it.  You *can* complain if they didn't do it at all.  So, for example, if I do the dishes, I don't want my husband complaining that I didn't do ALL the dishes.  I loaded the dishwasher, filled the sink, and did as many dishes as (1) filled the drainer and (2) made the dishwater scuzzy.

But Kitsune's point about cleanliness with kids is spot on. I've found that my standards have gone up a bit, and I have two boys now.  I get extremely frustrated at the amount of crap that people leave sitting around. And I *hate* working on cooking dinner and then tell people it's ready and THEN have them realize that the entire fucking kitchen table is full of CRAP.  We've started docking our child allowance if he leaves things on the floor, and I will occasionally take toys and put them "away" to be donated to charity.

The point someone else made about "having equal free time" is really all I want too.  I get tired of picking things up, and doing dishes, and cooking, if my husband is sitting playing on his phone (if he's playing with the kids, fine).  I spend so much time cooking and doing dishes on the weekend (because I do a lot of meal prep).  The worst is to go in to start cooking, then realize that spouse never did last night's dishes because he was "too tired".  So, first I get to put away yesterday's lunch dishes in the drainer. THEN I get to do last night's dinner dishes, THEN I have to fucking start cooking.  About 5 minutes in, "Can I help?"   How about you just DO IT.

So we have the best harmony when we are working at the same time.  It doesn't (and can't) always work that way. So if he's bathing the toddler, I'm usually doing the dishes.  We take turns with the breakfast dishes.  He's the laundry guy, I'm the cook, and we usually are alternating on the time of day that those happen so we can play with the kids.

The other hard part (and I have no solution), is lack of down time.  Due to my younger child's extreme stubbornness, he just fucking won't go to sleep until 9:30 pm, because he naps at daycare (I'm counting the days until preschool). So, I am asleep before he is every night except weekends.  So.  I don't get any quiet time to just veg out, crochet, talk to my husband.  Like, ever.  My husband doesn't go to bed until 10:30 or 11:30 pm.  So he gets quiet time every night.  But he sleeps less.   I have many friends who tout the importance of early bedtimes, like 7:30 pm.  Every single one of them is a SAHM.  Good luck getting your kids to sleep at 7:30 pm if you don't even get home with them until 5:30 pm, and if the spouse doesn't get home until 6:30 pm.

[dragoncar]

Also, his father once said, "Who cleans your windows?!" clearly implying no-one did. I said, "your son, but if you don't think he's doing a good job, there's a rag under the sink!". Yeah, he doesn't comment on our house anymore.

I'm saving this to use on my in-laws.

They've recently been making snarky comments because we hired a cleaning person (who comes for a half-day every 2 weeks for a total monthly cost of about 130$CAD). Reason: I have started working more hours at my job, taking away from the available household maintenance hours, and so, after paying the cleaning person, we are making 563$ MORE per month than we were before. This is a sensible expense, yo. Plus I'd rather work my job than clean my house, and if I'm gonna make more money doing something I prefer doing, then, hey! :) (Also, this gives us the weekend time to a) spend time with our daughter, and b) do the deck-building, barn-building, tree-planting, etc - things that would cost 20-60$/hour to hire out, as opposed to 15$/hour for the cleaner. THIS IS A SENSIBLE TIME/MONEY ALLOCATION, and it leaves us with the most money and the most done by the end of summer.

My in-laws are pulling the 'but cleaning people are so expensive' and 'only RICH people hire people to clean their houses, who do you think you are'. And I'm steaming mad that they pull this stuff when we invite them over for dinner. Like, you're a guest in our home. Appreciate what's offered, say thank you, and cut the fucking judgement, or get the fuck out and go bitch about us ELSEWHERE.

I am... very frustrated with them right now.

I hate that everyone thinks if you hire someone to clean inside your house (traditionally female work), you are lazy and entitled and rich.  if you hire someone to landscape, fix your car, build a deck or wash your car (traditionally male work), you're golden!

I don't hire anyone, but will happily hire someone if it makes sense.

In my mind, it has nothing to do with traditional gender roles.  It has to do with the training, tools, and/or danger involved in the activity.  It seems those factors just seem to like up with traditional gender roles (coincidence?):

Cleaning house: seriously anyone can do this themselves.  It requires no special tools or knowledge, just willingness to work

Landscaping: simple stuff you can do yourself but a lot of landscaping requires heavy or sharp equipment.  If you are tree climbing and wood chipping it can be very dangerous

Fix your car: often needs special tools, knowledge, and sometimes dangerous

Build a deck: needs special tools, some knowledge, moderately dangerous

Washing cars: ok that's really easy


BTW, my point isn't to quibble about the exact level of knowledge/tools/danger involved in the above activities.  But If I have to choose an activity to outsource, I sure as heck would rather pay someone to replace my roof than wash my floors.

[Kitsune]

Also, his father once said, "Who cleans your windows?!" clearly implying no-one did. I said, "your son, but if you don't think he's doing a good job, there's a rag under the sink!". Yeah, he doesn't comment on our house anymore.

I'm saving this to use on my in-laws.

They've recently been making snarky comments because we hired a cleaning person (who comes for a half-day every 2 weeks for a total monthly cost of about 130$CAD). Reason: I have started working more hours at my job, taking away from the available household maintenance hours, and so, after paying the cleaning person, we are making 563$ MORE per month than we were before. This is a sensible expense, yo. Plus I'd rather work my job than clean my house, and if I'm gonna make more money doing something I prefer doing, then, hey! :) (Also, this gives us the weekend time to a) spend time with our daughter, and b) do the deck-building, barn-building, tree-planting, etc - things that would cost 20-60$/hour to hire out, as opposed to 15$/hour for the cleaner. THIS IS A SENSIBLE TIME/MONEY ALLOCATION, and it leaves us with the most money and the most done by the end of summer.

My in-laws are pulling the 'but cleaning people are so expensive' and 'only RICH people hire people to clean their houses, who do you think you are'. And I'm steaming mad that they pull this stuff when we invite them over for dinner. Like, you're a guest in our home. Appreciate what's offered, say thank you, and cut the fucking judgement, or get the fuck out and go bitch about us ELSEWHERE.

I am... very frustrated with them right now.

I hate that everyone thinks if you hire someone to clean inside your house (traditionally female work), you are lazy and entitled and rich.  if you hire someone to landscape, fix your car, build a deck or wash your car (traditionally male work), you're golden!

I don't hire anyone, but will happily hire someone if it makes sense.

In my mind, it has nothing to do with traditional gender roles.  It has to do with the training, tools, and/or danger involved in the activity.  It seems those factors just seem to like up with traditional gender roles (coincidence?):

Cleaning house: seriously anyone can do this themselves.  It requires no special tools or knowledge, just willingness to work

Landscaping: simple stuff you can do yourself but a lot of landscaping requires heavy or sharp equipment.  If you are tree climbing and wood chipping it can be very dangerous

Fix your car: often needs special tools, knowledge, and sometimes dangerous

Build a deck: needs special tools, some knowledge, moderately dangerous

Washing cars: ok that's really easy


BTW, my point isn't to quibble about the exact level of knowledge/tools/danger involved in the above activities.  But If I have to choose an activity to outsource, I sure as heck would rather pay someone to replace my roof than wash my floors.

Yeah, but in our case, the deck would cost an extra 10K as compared to the housecleaning.

I'd rather build the deck (with my husband and FIL, both of who have construction experience), pay for the housecleaning, and pocket the leftover 10K. All things being equal.

[Chris22]

Also, his father once said, "Who cleans your windows?!" clearly implying no-one did. I said, "your son, but if you don't think he's doing a good job, there's a rag under the sink!". Yeah, he doesn't comment on our house anymore.

I'm saving this to use on my in-laws.

They've recently been making snarky comments because we hired a cleaning person (who comes for a half-day every 2 weeks for a total monthly cost of about 130$CAD). Reason: I have started working more hours at my job, taking away from the available household maintenance hours, and so, after paying the cleaning person, we are making 563$ MORE per month than we were before. This is a sensible expense, yo. Plus I'd rather work my job than clean my house, and if I'm gonna make more money doing something I prefer doing, then, hey! :) (Also, this gives us the weekend time to a) spend time with our daughter, and b) do the deck-building, barn-building, tree-planting, etc - things that would cost 20-60$/hour to hire out, as opposed to 15$/hour for the cleaner. THIS IS A SENSIBLE TIME/MONEY ALLOCATION, and it leaves us with the most money and the most done by the end of summer.

My in-laws are pulling the 'but cleaning people are so expensive' and 'only RICH people hire people to clean their houses, who do you think you are'. And I'm steaming mad that they pull this stuff when we invite them over for dinner. Like, you're a guest in our home. Appreciate what's offered, say thank you, and cut the fucking judgement, or get the fuck out and go bitch about us ELSEWHERE.

I am... very frustrated with them right now.

I hate that everyone thinks if you hire someone to clean inside your house (traditionally female work), you are lazy and entitled and rich.  if you hire someone to landscape, fix your car, build a deck or wash your car (traditionally male work), you're golden!

I don't hire anyone, but will happily hire someone if it makes sense.

In my mind, it has nothing to do with traditional gender roles.  It has to do with the training, tools, and/or danger involved in the activity.  It seems those factors just seem to like up with traditional gender roles (coincidence?):

Cleaning house: seriously anyone can do this themselves.  It requires no special tools or knowledge, just willingness to work

Landscaping: simple stuff you can do yourself but a lot of landscaping requires heavy or sharp equipment.  If you are tree climbing and wood chipping it can be very dangerous

Fix your car: often needs special tools, knowledge, and sometimes dangerous

Build a deck: needs special tools, some knowledge, moderately dangerous

Washing cars: ok that's really easy


BTW, my point isn't to quibble about the exact level of knowledge/tools/danger involved in the above activities.  But If I have to choose an activity to outsource, I sure as heck would rather pay someone to replace my roof than wash my floors.

Yeah, but in our case, the deck would cost an extra 10K as compared to the housecleaning.

I'd rather build the deck (with my husband and FIL, both of who have construction experience), pay for the housecleaning, and pocket the leftover 10K. All things being equal.

Exactly.  I pay someone to clean my house.  $150/mo.  I am refinishing my own basement.  Probably save myself $20k all-in.  That's 11 years of the cleaning lady.  And the basement work is interesting, physical, and fun (compared to my day job of making spreadsheets) and won't last forever.  The cleaning is tedious, mind-numbing, and repetitive. 

[dragoncar]

Also, his father once said, "Who cleans your windows?!" clearly implying no-one did. I said, "your son, but if you don't think he's doing a good job, there's a rag under the sink!". Yeah, he doesn't comment on our house anymore.

I'm saving this to use on my in-laws.

They've recently been making snarky comments because we hired a cleaning person (who comes for a half-day every 2 weeks for a total monthly cost of about 130$CAD). Reason: I have started working more hours at my job, taking away from the available household maintenance hours, and so, after paying the cleaning person, we are making 563$ MORE per month than we were before. This is a sensible expense, yo. Plus I'd rather work my job than clean my house, and if I'm gonna make more money doing something I prefer doing, then, hey! :) (Also, this gives us the weekend time to a) spend time with our daughter, and b) do the deck-building, barn-building, tree-planting, etc - things that would cost 20-60$/hour to hire out, as opposed to 15$/hour for the cleaner. THIS IS A SENSIBLE TIME/MONEY ALLOCATION, and it leaves us with the most money and the most done by the end of summer.

My in-laws are pulling the 'but cleaning people are so expensive' and 'only RICH people hire people to clean their houses, who do you think you are'. And I'm steaming mad that they pull this stuff when we invite them over for dinner. Like, you're a guest in our home. Appreciate what's offered, say thank you, and cut the fucking judgement, or get the fuck out and go bitch about us ELSEWHERE.

I am... very frustrated with them right now.

I hate that everyone thinks if you hire someone to clean inside your house (traditionally female work), you are lazy and entitled and rich.  if you hire someone to landscape, fix your car, build a deck or wash your car (traditionally male work), you're golden!

I don't hire anyone, but will happily hire someone if it makes sense.

In my mind, it has nothing to do with traditional gender roles.  It has to do with the training, tools, and/or danger involved in the activity.  It seems those factors just seem to like up with traditional gender roles (coincidence?):

Cleaning house: seriously anyone can do this themselves.  It requires no special tools or knowledge, just willingness to work

Landscaping: simple stuff you can do yourself but a lot of landscaping requires heavy or sharp equipment.  If you are tree climbing and wood chipping it can be very dangerous

Fix your car: often needs special tools, knowledge, and sometimes dangerous

Build a deck: needs special tools, some knowledge, moderately dangerous

Washing cars: ok that's really easy


BTW, my point isn't to quibble about the exact level of knowledge/tools/danger involved in the above activities.  But If I have to choose an activity to outsource, I sure as heck would rather pay someone to replace my roof than wash my floors.

Yeah, but in our case, the deck would cost an extra 10K as compared to the housecleaning.

I'd rather build the deck (with my husband and FIL, both of who have construction experience), pay for the housecleaning, and pocket the leftover 10K. All things being equal.

Exactly.  I pay someone to clean my house.  $150/mo.  I am refinishing my own basement.  Probably save myself $20k all-in.  That's 11 years of the cleaning lady.  And the basement work is interesting, physical, and fun (compared to my day job of making spreadsheets) and won't last forever.  The cleaning is tedious, mind-numbing, and repetitive.

So unless you replace your deck/basement every 11 years you come out ahead doing your own cleaning but outsourcing the construction.  RIGHHHT?

[Chris22]

Also, his father once said, "Who cleans your windows?!" clearly implying no-one did. I said, "your son, but if you don't think he's doing a good job, there's a rag under the sink!". Yeah, he doesn't comment on our house anymore.

I'm saving this to use on my in-laws.

They've recently been making snarky comments because we hired a cleaning person (who comes for a half-day every 2 weeks for a total monthly cost of about 130$CAD). Reason: I have started working more hours at my job, taking away from the available household maintenance hours, and so, after paying the cleaning person, we are making 563$ MORE per month than we were before. This is a sensible expense, yo. Plus I'd rather work my job than clean my house, and if I'm gonna make more money doing something I prefer doing, then, hey! :) (Also, this gives us the weekend time to a) spend time with our daughter, and b) do the deck-building, barn-building, tree-planting, etc - things that would cost 20-60$/hour to hire out, as opposed to 15$/hour for the cleaner. THIS IS A SENSIBLE TIME/MONEY ALLOCATION, and it leaves us with the most money and the most done by the end of summer.

My in-laws are pulling the 'but cleaning people are so expensive' and 'only RICH people hire people to clean their houses, who do you think you are'. And I'm steaming mad that they pull this stuff when we invite them over for dinner. Like, you're a guest in our home. Appreciate what's offered, say thank you, and cut the fucking judgement, or get the fuck out and go bitch about us ELSEWHERE.

I am... very frustrated with them right now.

I hate that everyone thinks if you hire someone to clean inside your house (traditionally female work), you are lazy and entitled and rich.  if you hire someone to landscape, fix your car, build a deck or wash your car (traditionally male work), you're golden!

I don't hire anyone, but will happily hire someone if it makes sense.

In my mind, it has nothing to do with traditional gender roles.  It has to do with the training, tools, and/or danger involved in the activity.  It seems those factors just seem to like up with traditional gender roles (coincidence?):

Cleaning house: seriously anyone can do this themselves.  It requires no special tools or knowledge, just willingness to work

Landscaping: simple stuff you can do yourself but a lot of landscaping requires heavy or sharp equipment.  If you are tree climbing and wood chipping it can be very dangerous

Fix your car: often needs special tools, knowledge, and sometimes dangerous

Build a deck: needs special tools, some knowledge, moderately dangerous

Washing cars: ok that's really easy


BTW, my point isn't to quibble about the exact level of knowledge/tools/danger involved in the above activities.  But If I have to choose an activity to outsource, I sure as heck would rather pay someone to replace my roof than wash my floors.

Yeah, but in our case, the deck would cost an extra 10K as compared to the housecleaning.

I'd rather build the deck (with my husband and FIL, both of who have construction experience), pay for the housecleaning, and pocket the leftover 10K. All things being equal.

Exactly.  I pay someone to clean my house.  $150/mo.  I am refinishing my own basement.  Probably save myself $20k all-in.  That's 11 years of the cleaning lady.  And the basement work is interesting, physical, and fun (compared to my day job of making spreadsheets) and won't last forever.  The cleaning is tedious, mind-numbing, and repetitive.

So unless you replace your deck/basement every 11 years you come out ahead doing your own cleaning but outsourcing the construction.  RIGHHHT?

That's a time horizon I'm comfortable eating.  Besides, now it's the basement, later it's the landscaping, then it's redoing all the trim in the house and on and on.  Basically, cleaning sucks, and other construction projects are fun and interesting. 

[ShoulderThingThatGoesUp]

I hate that everyone thinks if you hire someone to clean inside your house (traditionally female work), you are lazy and entitled and rich.  if you hire someone to landscape, fix your car, build a deck or wash your car (traditionally male work), you're golden!

Personally every time somebody does a case study with "lawn guy" or "landscaper" on there I post that if you can't do your yard yourself, you have too much yard. I think hiring a cleaning person is a lot more reasonable - you gotta live somewhere - than hiring somebody to maintain something completely optional (the yard).

(don't get me wrong, if I needed a tree taken down, I'd hire somebody who knew what he was doing. But I don't actually have any trees, just a few hanging over my yard from the neighbors.)

[dragoncar]

I hate that everyone thinks if you hire someone to clean inside your house (traditionally female work), you are lazy and entitled and rich.  if you hire someone to landscape, fix your car, build a deck or wash your car (traditionally male work), you're golden!

Personally every time somebody does a case study with "lawn guy" or "landscaper" on there I post that if you can't do your yard yourself, you have too much yard. I think hiring a cleaning person is a lot more reasonable - you gotta live somewhere - than hiring somebody to maintain something completely optional (the yard).

If you need to hire a cleaning person, you are too messy and/or have too big a living space.

Of course I do my own construction projects that are fun (although I'm not gonna risk my life).   I also clean up and it is not particularly hard.  It also helps ensure things are really clean and not just "rub a dirty rag on the toilet then on the sink" clean.

[Goldielocks]

So yes to historic inequalities etc, but I actually put a lot of this on women themselves. These are educated, working, young women. Why didn't they have the same conversation? Why did they just start doing everything, whilst also complaining about it? I just don't get it.

My husband, you know, was a single guy who lived alone for 6 years before we married.

When we finally lived together, a couple of my girlfriends asked how I got him to do laundry.  My funny answer is: "I own more underwear".  (Which was true, he'd run out first!)  But really...the guy knows how to run a washing machine, and has since he was 18.

Okay,  About 12 months after our marriage, I just stopped doing my DH's laundry.  I still do the sheets, towels and my own (and now the kids' when they forget and it piles up), but never DH's.   This works great, as my clothing is never ruined by him anymore, and he will do his himself.   I iron his shirts when we go to my company dinner, or my parent's for dinner.

Unfortuneately, he does not get hungry for dinner (and will go for fast food whenever he suddenly realizes that he has not eaten in 12 hours), does not see the floors / mess, is more bothered by the idea of cleaning a toilet than having a dirty one, can't bend over to clean a tub / shower, and would rather have "family time" than take care of home maintenance (or somehow is unaware that the deck needs to be pressure washed when it is green in the spring, windows washed, fridge wiped out occasionally, etc.?)

So, just stopping doing the work is not a viable option, other than I get to live in a constant mess until I choose to do it.   I have only five options:

1) ignore the mess, do what I feel like and wear sunglasses inside
2) train the kids
3) do it myself
4) hire help (but there is work trying to manage maid service, too,)
5) ask for Kitsune's condo list and leave it around....

Oh, and I guess the one he asks for 6)  ask him to help when I am working on the chores..  which results in his feeling superior if I complain that he does not do much, ("but I was clear that all you need to do is ask")..justified in not doing anything unless I directly request it..... or in his making me feel bad for asking when I do "Can't you see that I am busy doing my hobby today?  I only get the weekends and weeknights to work on it...."

And no,   even when he agrees to a divided chore list, it lasts for about a day

Ah..  that felt good to whine to an anonymous audience.   Crankiness relieved for another week.

[theadvicist]

My husband, you know, was a single guy who lived alone for 6 years before we married.

When we finally lived together, a couple of my girlfriends asked how I got him to do laundry.  My funny answer is: "I own more underwear".  (Which was true, he'd run out first!)  But really...the guy knows how to run a washing machine, and has since he was 18.

Yes, this is what I don't get. How did you 'get' him to do laundry?! Like if it's not your job to do the laundry, it's your job to get him to do it?! How do they think their partners got clean clothes before they met them? If it was his mother doing it, yeah, not interested in him thanks.

Even ignoring the unfair division of labour, it's an unfair policing of the division of labour, and I honestly don't understand why my friends don't just stand up for themselves. They were born in the 80s and 90s, they all work full-time, I don't know why the idea of a man 'helping out' is still prevalent. He's not 'helping' he's living his f*cking life, which involves cleaning, maintaining and laundry.

[I'm a red panda]

I "got" my husband to cook when he realized the only thing I can make is spaghetti (or variations- I can totally do mac and cheese) and will not handle raw meet.

Laundry is my chore, it's just how things got split. I usually do it while he is mowing the lawn.

I don't know why the idea of a man 'helping out' is still prevalent.

The same reason a man watching his own kids is "babysitting".   It's ridiculous.

[BigRed]

The same reason a man watching his own kids is "babysitting".   It's ridiculous.

This drives me insane when people say it to me.  I always reply, "No, I'm fathering."

[nobodyspecial]

My husband, you know, was a single guy who lived alone for 6 years before we married.

When we finally lived together, a couple of my girlfriends asked how I got him to do laundry.  My funny answer is: "I own more underwear".  (Which was true, he'd run out first!)  But really...the guy knows how to run a washing machine, and has since he was 18.

Not a well thought out plan. He may have less underwear but, as a guy, he is prepared to keep wearing it longer than you

[rockstache]

My husband, you know, was a single guy who lived alone for 6 years before we married.

When we finally lived together, a couple of my girlfriends asked how I got him to do laundry.  My funny answer is: "I own more underwear".  (Which was true, he'd run out first!)  But really...the guy knows how to run a washing machine, and has since he was 18.

Yes, this is what I don't get. How did you 'get' him to do laundry?! Like if it's not your job to do the laundry, it's your job to get him to do it?! How do they think their partners got clean clothes before they met them? If it was his mother doing it, yeah, not interested in him thanks.

Even ignoring the unfair division of labour, it's an unfair policing of the division of labour, and I honestly don't understand why my friends don't just stand up for themselves. They were born in the 80s and 90s, they all work full-time, I don't know why the idea of a man 'helping out' is still prevalent. He's not 'helping' he's living his f*cking life, which involves cleaning, maintaining and laundry.

+1

I get this from my 93 year old grandmother - ok fine, she's not going to be anything but shocked that a man would actually do anything to help. I won't change her perspective on life at this point.

For everyone else in the world though, come on along. I can't believe how many women expect to be married to a guy who is basically like another child, and think that complaining about it is all you can do.

[MgoSam]

My husband, you know, was a single guy who lived alone for 6 years before we married.

When we finally lived together, a couple of my girlfriends asked how I got him to do laundry.  My funny answer is: "I own more underwear".  (Which was true, he'd run out first!)  But really...the guy knows how to run a washing machine, and has since he was 18.

Yes, this is what I don't get. How did you 'get' him to do laundry?! Like if it's not your job to do the laundry, it's your job to get him to do it?! How do they think their partners got clean clothes before they met them? If it was his mother doing it, yeah, not interested in him thanks.

Even ignoring the unfair division of labour, it's an unfair policing of the division of labour, and I honestly don't understand why my friends don't just stand up for themselves. They were born in the 80s and 90s, they all work full-time, I don't know why the idea of a man 'helping out' is still prevalent. He's not 'helping' he's living his f*cking life, which involves cleaning, maintaining and laundry.

+1

I get this from my 93 year old grandmother - ok fine, she's not going to be anything but shocked that a man would actually do anything to help. I won't change her perspective on life at this point.

For everyone else in the world though, come on along. I can't believe how many women expect to be married to a guy who is basically like another child, and think that complaining about it is all you can do.

Agreed! I didn't know how to cook or do laundry until I went to college, but you know what, I learned. Laundry isn't very difficult to do, and cooking need not be difficult to learn. It's just insane how many men act like cavemen the moment they get married because their wives are there to clean up after them.

[MrsDinero]

My husband, you know, was a single guy who lived alone for 6 years before we married.

When we finally lived together, a couple of my girlfriends asked how I got him to do laundry.  My funny answer is: "I own more underwear".  (Which was true, he'd run out first!)  But really...the guy knows how to run a washing machine, and has since he was 18.

Yes, this is what I don't get. How did you 'get' him to do laundry?! Like if it's not your job to do the laundry, it's your job to get him to do it?! How do they think their partners got clean clothes before they met them? If it was his mother doing it, yeah, not interested in him thanks.

Even ignoring the unfair division of labour, it's an unfair policing of the division of labour, and I honestly don't understand why my friends don't just stand up for themselves. They were born in the 80s and 90s, they all work full-time, I don't know why the idea of a man 'helping out' is still prevalent. He's not 'helping' he's living his f*cking life, which involves cleaning, maintaining and laundry.

+1

I get this from my 93 year old grandmother - ok fine, she's not going to be anything but shocked that a man would actually do anything to help. I won't change her perspective on life at this point.

For everyone else in the world though, come on along. I can't believe how many women expect to be married to a guy who is basically like another child, and think that complaining about it is all you can do.

In defense of your 93 year old grandmother, it was a different time and different expectations :)

Still it is a conversation I've had with a couple of my friends.  I pointed out there was a difference between my (now) husband and theirs. 

The basic difference is they married their husbands right out of college, so they went from highschool to the dorms, to living with their (now) husbands in college to getting married, so neither of them ever lived on their own or maintained their own house.  I, on the other hand, started living with my now husband when I was 37 and he was 41.  Big difference.  It is kind of funny we've never talked about diving up chores we just do what needs to be done.

[Sibley]

I'll be honest, I'm 30 and single. I am 100% not interested in a man who can't cook, clean, do laundry, basic maintenance, etc, and I'm even less interested in one who's not willing to do those things. I'm not asking for perfection, I'm asking that you put your coat away and don't pile your crap all over.

I also have a roommate who needs to work on these skills.

[NESailor]

My wife still complains about me being messy but I think our "division of labor" is pretty fair.  She DOES clean more than I do, no doubt...but aside from running all admin work (financial matters, insurance, house and property maintenance etc.), I do approximately 99% of the cooking.  We don't eat out so I'd say I spend more than an hour/day in the kitchen on average (multiple big meals on weekends + fresh stuff 2-4 times week).  She does not clean the entire time while I cook but God forbid I leave socks by the foot of the bed - I'm the messiest human being on the planet and will drive her crazy :)

I think we're a good team, though.  I like good food so cooking isn't really a big deal and she likes a neat house so she's welcome to keep it that way, haha.

[rockstache]

My husband went straight from his parents house to my apartment. But his dad set a good example for him by always being an equal partner in kid/house stuff (even though his mom was a SAHP and technically did more), and he does at least 50% in our house too - if not more. I don't think it's a matter of age as much as emotional maturity and/or having a good example to follow.

[solon]

My cousin posted one of those Facebook memories from five years ago. It's a picture of clothes on a clothesline, and the the caption says, "Man, a lot has changed in 5 years..."

I have no idea what she's talking about. I'm afraid to ask because if I was a real friend, I'd already know!

[mm1970]

My husband, you know, was a single guy who lived alone for 6 years before we married.

When we finally lived together, a couple of my girlfriends asked how I got him to do laundry.  My funny answer is: "I own more underwear".  (Which was true, he'd run out first!)  But really...the guy knows how to run a washing machine, and has since he was 18.

Yes, this is what I don't get. How did you 'get' him to do laundry?! Like if it's not your job to do the laundry, it's your job to get him to do it?! How do they think their partners got clean clothes before they met them? If it was his mother doing it, yeah, not interested in him thanks.

Even ignoring the unfair division of labour, it's an unfair policing of the division of labour, and I honestly don't understand why my friends don't just stand up for themselves. They were born in the 80s and 90s, they all work full-time, I don't know why the idea of a man 'helping out' is still prevalent. He's not 'helping' he's living his f*cking life, which involves cleaning, maintaining and laundry.

Any my dinosaur husband was born in the 60s!   I mean, come on!

[Prairie Gal]

My husband, you know, was a single guy who lived alone for 6 years before we married.

When we finally lived together, a couple of my girlfriends asked how I got him to do laundry.  My funny answer is: "I own more underwear".  (Which was true, he'd run out first!)  But really...the guy knows how to run a washing machine, and has since he was 18.

Yes, this is what I don't get. How did you 'get' him to do laundry?! Like if it's not your job to do the laundry, it's your job to get him to do it?! How do they think their partners got clean clothes before they met them? If it was his mother doing it, yeah, not interested in him thanks.

Even ignoring the unfair division of labour, it's an unfair policing of the division of labour, and I honestly don't understand why my friends don't just stand up for themselves. They were born in the 80s and 90s, they all work full-time, I don't know why the idea of a man 'helping out' is still prevalent. He's not 'helping' he's living his f*cking life, which involves cleaning, maintaining and laundry.

+1

I get this from my 93 year old grandmother - ok fine, she's not going to be anything but shocked that a man would actually do anything to help. I won't change her perspective on life at this point.

For everyone else in the world though, come on along. I can't believe how many women expect to be married to a guy who is basically like another child, and think that complaining about it is all you can do.

In defense of your 93 year old grandmother, it was a different time and different expectations :)

Still it is a conversation I've had with a couple of my friends.  I pointed out there was a difference between my (now) husband and theirs. 

The basic difference is they married their husbands right out of college, so they went from highschool to the dorms, to living with their (now) husbands in college to getting married, so neither of them ever lived on their own or maintained their own house.  I, on the other hand, started living with my now husband when I was 37 and he was 41.  Big difference.  It is kind of funny we've never talked about diving up chores we just do what needs to be done.

My husband did the laundry and all the outside stuff, I did pretty much everything else. (And he was born in the late 1940's.)

[dragoncar]

My cousin posted one of those Facebook memories from five years ago. It's a picture of clothes on a clothesline, and the the caption says, "Man, a lot has changed in 5 years..."

I have no idea what she's talking about. I'm afraid to ask because if I was a real friend, I'd already know!

They invented electric clothes dryers in the last five years.. Didn't you hear?

[mm1970]

So, just stopping doing the work is not a viable option, other than I get to live in a constant mess until I choose to do it.   I have only five options:

1) ignore the mess, do what I feel like and wear sunglasses inside
2) train the kids
3) do it myself
4) hire help (but there is work trying to manage maid service, too,)
5) ask for Kitsune's condo list and leave it around....

Oh, and I guess the one he asks for 6)  ask him to help when I am working on the chores..  which results in his feeling superior if I complain that he does not do much, ("but I was clear that all you need to do is ask")..justified in not doing anything unless I directly request it..... or in his making me feel bad for asking when I do "Can't you see that I am busy doing my hobby today?  I only get the weekends and weeknights to work on it...."

And no,   even when he agrees to a divided chore list, it lasts for about a day

Ah..  that felt good to whine to an anonymous audience.   Crankiness relieved for another week.

Hm...you know, before we had kids, our apartment would get out of control (probably worse than now, with kids).  You know, he was in grad school, I worked long hours.  We'd cook and not do the dishes (no dishwasher), and go out Friday night, so by Saturday morning we had papers everywhere, 3 days worth of dishes to do, etc.

We set up a regular "cleaning time", 1.5-2 hours, every Saturday morning.  We were BOTH doing chores. AND laundry and dishes did not count.  It was great because it was agreed upon time ahead of time.  No asking required.  No "but I want to work on my hobby..."

Would that work for you?  I think the hard part is the kids - we tend to work at different times now, a lot, because one of us is engaged with the kids.  However, I follow the blog of a single mom in Canada (Notes from the Frugal Trenches).  A recent post of hers pointed out the importance of being organized and clean.  What works for her is three non-negotiable 10-minute time slots per day for tidying/ cleaning.

Gosh I remember how we would always ALWAYS leave dishes for the next morning.  One day, it occurred to me that it was stupid, because they are harder to clean the next day.  SO I got up from dinner, and washed the dishes.  My husband said "what are you doing?"  I said "well, I think they are easier to clean right away, and it's only 10 minutes".  POOF, habit changed.

And on the flip side, he taught me to put my car keys in the same damn place every day.

We've taught the toddler to put his shoes on the shelf and laundry in the basket.

We recently started docking my 10 year old for every clothing item found on the floor.  Baby steps!

[MgoSam]

My cousin posted one of those Facebook memories from five years ago. It's a picture of clothes on a clothesline, and the the caption says, "Man, a lot has changed in 5 years..."

I have no idea what she's talking about. I'm afraid to ask because if I was a real friend, I'd already know!

They invented electric clothes dryers in the last five years.. Didn't you hear?

I'm guessing that there will be two types of adult clothes and some things that look like baby and toddler. She's basically saying that 5 years ago she was single, but now she's got a husband and kids.

[Ceridwen]

In a conversation on a local moms FB group about meal prep and finding shortcuts and cost savings.

"You should go on house of chef James Mitchell it is a company in the Vaudreuil area that caters to the west island they make weekly healthy delicious meals and deliver to your door it costs less then cooking and shopping I use there service and am very satisfied look it up there menus change every week."

This is the company she was referring to: http://www.chefjamesmitchell.com/#!weekly-meal-menu/ts2k0

$31 for a family meal, + taxes, + delivery fee of $5-8 depending on where you live.

How on earth is $40~ per meal cheaper than cooking your own? Some people live on a different planet than the rest of us.

[I'm a red panda]

How on earth is $40~ per meal cheaper than cooking your own? Some people live on a different planet than the rest of us.

Yeah, that's crazy.

My Mom and Dad eat out at the country club about 3 nights a week. She told me that their member prices are "so low" it would be impossible to eat this cheaply at home.  Even discounted, it's $10 a person, plus they get wine.  Um, no- not seeing the "impossible" here...

[I'm a red panda]

My cousin posted one of those Facebook memories from five years ago. It's a picture of clothes on a clothesline, and the the caption says, "Man, a lot has changed in 5 years..."

I have no idea what she's talking about. I'm afraid to ask because if I was a real friend, I'd already know!

5 years ago she didn't have a dryer, now she does?

[MishMash]

So my creepy needy FB friend from earlier in the thread (recap, go fund me for Christmas because she cheated on her DH and he booted her, and the Christmas list consisted of mulitple pages of stuff for her like 100 hair crap, then 3 pages of name brand stuff for her kids, followed by a page of stuff for her pets) is back at it again.

Two weeks ago, boyfriend kicked her to the curb (again this is like the third or fourth time) begging for help to move her stuff, people come move her, last week she moves back in and sets up a Go Fund me for rent of 950 for her and the BF. 

So, can't make this shit up, she just comments on a picture of a baby fox that someone found and goes "Can I come pick it up?   No joke, I was just looking to buy one online!!!!!"  She already has 5 cats and another dog, she was "forced" to re home her other two dogs earlier in the thread because her ex didn't want them and she couldn't take them due to the landlord.  Yet she somehow thinks she can hide a FOX (which is illegal to own in the state, and she said she knew that when someone pointed it out on the thread) I seriously feel bad for that landlord, they have no idea what they've gotten themselves into.

[MgoSam]

How on earth is $40~ per meal cheaper than cooking your own? Some people live on a different planet than the rest of us.

Yeah, that's crazy.

My Mom and Dad eat out at the country club about 3 nights a week. She told me that their member prices are "so low" it would be impossible to eat this cheaply at home.  Even discounted, it's $10 a person, plushey get wine.  Um, no- not seeing the "impossible" here...

How much are they paying for the privilege of dining at the country club? I wonder how much the meals would cost per person if they were to include these fees into it. Heck I would amortize their joining fees as well into the fold. It's possible that it still might be very affordable if it includes wine and a good meal, but I highly doubt it, but then again I've read that many country clubs have opened their doors to non-members at affordable prices because of declining membership and wanting to stay viable.

[I'm a red panda]

How much are they paying for the privilege of dining at the country club? I wonder how much the meals would cost per person if they were to include these fees into it. Heck I would amortize their joining fees as well into the fold. It's possible that it still might be very affordable if it includes wine and a good meal, but I highly doubt it, but then again I've read that many country clubs have opened their doors to non-members at affordable prices because of declining membership and wanting to stay viable.

Oh, dear god, a shit-ton.  But there is no way they aren't going to stay members. And they do 5-10 rounds of golf a week (yes, multiple times a day some weeks.)

They are very bogle head types. Make a ton of money, quite a bit from passive investments (IBM stock paid for multiple college degrees), and spend a ton.

[Kitsune]

In a conversation on a local moms FB group about meal prep and finding shortcuts and cost savings.

"You should go on house of chef James Mitchell it is a company in the Vaudreuil area that caters to the west island they make weekly healthy delicious meals and deliver to your door it costs less then cooking and shopping I use there service and am very satisfied look it up there menus change every week."

This is the company she was referring to: http://www.chefjamesmitchell.com/#!weekly-meal-menu/ts2k0

$31 for a family meal, + taxes, + delivery fee of $5-8 depending on where you live.

How on earth is $40~ per meal cheaper than cooking your own? Some people live on a different planet than the rest of us.

... I live in Quebec, and grocery prices are comparable across the province. There isn't a single thing on his menu that I couldn't make for under 15$ (to feed a family of 4, plus leftovers for at least 2 lunches). Most of the things on his list could be done for under 10$ and under half an hour if you're used to cooking.

I can understand not wanting to cook, and paying for the privilege, but to call it "money saving" is outrageous.

[Ceridwen]

In a conversation on a local moms FB group about meal prep and finding shortcuts and cost savings.

"You should go on house of chef James Mitchell it is a company in the Vaudreuil area that caters to the west island they make weekly healthy delicious meals and deliver to your door it costs less then cooking and shopping I use there service and am very satisfied look it up there menus change every week."

This is the company she was referring to: http://www.chefjamesmitchell.com/#!weekly-meal-menu/ts2k0

$31 for a family meal, + taxes, + delivery fee of $5-8 depending on where you live.

How on earth is $40~ per meal cheaper than cooking your own? Some people live on a different planet than the rest of us.

... I live in Quebec, and grocery prices are comparable across the province. There isn't a single thing on his menu that I couldn't make for under 15$ (to feed a family of 4, plus leftovers for at least 2 lunches). Most of the things on his list could be done for under 10$ and under half an hour if you're used to cooking.

I can understand not wanting to cook, and paying for the privilege, but to call it "money saving" is outrageous.

I know.  When I pointed out the flaw in her logic/math, her reply to me was that "we all have our opinions about quality and price".  As if I'm feeding my family Hamburger Helper every night.  SMH.

I have absolutely no problem with people using meal services.  Tell yourself whatever you want to justify the cost in your head.  But don't tell others (when they are seeking help to save money) that this is an affordable solution.