Overheard on Facebook

[Sibley]

Can I vent?

She got the free trial of the Graze box. I'd never heard of it, apparently they send you individually packaged healthy snacks for an inflated price. She really likes it, so instead of cancelling before she has to pay for it has decided to keep it for a while. SHE HAS NO JOB.

Yes of course, that's what the main purpose of this thread is imo.

My former landlord/roommate used that service for a while. He is a huge guy (around 300 pounds though he's dropped some of it recently) and so he could eat the entire package in a sitting. I remember the first time he got it he saw the look on my face and couldn't think of anything to say, I didn't see it for very long afterwards so I'm guessing he either discontinued the service or hid it.

Oh yeah, she's overweight as well and is trying to lose weight.

[theadvicist]

Can I vent?

She got the free trial of the Graze box. I'd never heard of it, apparently they send you individually packaged healthy snacks for an inflated price. She really likes it, so instead of cancelling before she has to pay for it has decided to keep it for a while. SHE HAS NO JOB.

Yes of course, that's what the main purpose of this thread is imo.

My former landlord/roommate used that service for a while. He is a huge guy (around 300 pounds though he's dropped some of it recently) and so he could eat the entire package in a sitting. I remember the first time he got it he saw the look on my face and couldn't think of anything to say, I didn't see it for very long afterwards so I'm guessing he either discontinued the service or hid it.

Oh yeah, she's overweight as well and is trying to lose weight.

I tried it (er, free trail, cancelled before being charged, natch). There is nothing healthy about it except the marketing. Half the items were just nuts, but instead of mixing them with raisins, you got chocolate chips (and not even dark chocolate, really sweet milk chocolate?!), and the rest were basically bombay mix but with middle-class flavourings like pepper and wasabi or sea salt and cinnamon.

Ridiculous on every level: the 'healthiness', the cost, and the very idea people need snacks POSTING to them lest they have to get off their arse and go to the shop, or even order groceries delivered to their house but then show enough organisation and restraint to organise them into small portions. Also, so much plastic packaging. I see so many Graze packs in our office post room though, so some genius will FIRE on the back of it.

[MgoSam]

Can I vent?

She got the free trial of the Graze box. I'd never heard of it, apparently they send you individually packaged healthy snacks for an inflated price. She really likes it, so instead of cancelling before she has to pay for it has decided to keep it for a while. SHE HAS NO JOB.

Yes of course, that's what the main purpose of this thread is imo.

My former landlord/roommate used that service for a while. He is a huge guy (around 300 pounds though he's dropped some of it recently) and so he could eat the entire package in a sitting. I remember the first time he got it he saw the look on my face and couldn't think of anything to say, I didn't see it for very long afterwards so I'm guessing he either discontinued the service or hid it.

Oh yeah, she's overweight as well and is trying to lose weight.

I tried it (er, free trail, cancelled before being charged, natch). There is nothing healthy about it except the marketing. Half the items were just nuts, but instead of mixing them with raisins, you got chocolate chips (and not even dark chocolate, really sweet milk chocolate?!), and the rest were basically bombay mix but with middle-class flavourings like pepper and wasabi or sea salt and cinnamon.

Ridiculous on every level: the 'healthiness', the cost, and the very idea people need snacks POSTING to them lest they have to get off their arse and go to the shop, or even order groceries delivered to their house but then show enough organisation and restraint to organise them into small portions. Also, so much plastic packaging. I see so many Graze packs in our office post room though, so some genius will FIRE on the back of it.

I should add that I don't think my roommate continued on with that expensive snacking. I saw him last night and it's clear that he has been exercising and eating better, and is trying to bike more places now that it's beautiful outside.

[fat-johnny]

Posted by my distant out-of-state cousin, 35F:  Happy birthday presents for the boys, iPhone 6s and Otterbox cases!!   (the boys are maybe 10yo and 12yo)  with picture of said boys holding new-in-box iPhones and cases

5 minutes later:  Prayers out to my dad and the rest of my family.  Get well soon, we'll see you in a few days  (he had a heart attack that day, and is recovering very nicely).

5 minutes later:  Early Mother's Day present for me!! (with picture of some new iPad device)

Glad to see you could sandwich you deep concern for your father and his heart attack in between spendypants Fakebook posts!!

This is the same cousin who posted over the holidays:  Ugh, just got done cleaning all five bathrooms.  I should hire a maid!   (one of her snarky friends called her out on it with a comment of "You really just posted that to show off that you have FIVE bathrooms?!?")

This is the same cousin who about 3 years ago include a typed-up page with her Christmas card (which BTW was a picture of the whole fam standing in front of their newly built 5,000sf custom home):  "The boys are doing great, both involved in spendypants travel baseball teams, so if anyone would like to send money, because travel baseball is expensive……."  and then posts to FB all year from these baseball tournaments about how they are out to eat at Outback, Longhorn, etc.. and pictures of the boys drinking $10 virgin daiquiris and the like.

Ugh…..I could go on and on.

[RFAAOATB]

This is the same cousin who posted over the holidays:  Ugh, just got done cleaning all five bathrooms.  I should hire a maid!   (one of her snarky friends called her out on it with a comment of "You really just posted that to show off that you have FIVE bathrooms?!?")

A week ago I was cleaning my 1.5 bathroom condo and came to the realization that while I want more space and I can afford a bigger house with some stretching, I should hold off until I can afford the big house and the maid.

[dragoncar]

This is the same cousin who posted over the holidays:  Ugh, just got done cleaning all five bathrooms.  I should hire a maid!   (one of her snarky friends called her out on it with a comment of "You really just posted that to show off that you have FIVE bathrooms?!?")

A week ago I was cleaning my 1.5 bathroom condo and came to the realization that while I want more space and I can afford a bigger house with some stretching, I should hold off until I can afford the big house and the maid.

Just have your wife do it. That's what women are for, after all.

[VaCPA]

big Facebook debate here over night, our property values are increasing exponentially, so our property taxes are increasing as well. but taxes are capped at 10% growth per year, and values are going faster than that. And everyone is furious. It's simple math. my house is up like 20k and it's going to cost me $500 this year. I would do unforgivable things to get that rate of return with any of my other investments.

but so many of the people in this town bought more house than they can afford, and have 2 leased new SUVs or Luxury sedans in their driveway. I drive my toyota past them on my way to work, thinking about how at this rate I can Fire early and move to Tuscany instead of rural PA...

It is inconceivable to me how some people can set up there lives to be so near the red.  A friend of a friend bought a large house in the country with a long commute and let slip that there budget is setup to be 40$ in the black each month.  WTF he is an engineer too.  Like 40$ is a 50cent increase in gas!  I totally get that bad things happen and some people end up in trouble for bizarre hard to plain for events, but if you are a middle aged professional and cant shrug off 500$/year you are doing something wrong.

My wife and I are considering buying a house and are looking at our mortgage/taxes/insurance payment being in the 22-23% of our posttax, post-tithe income. Technically of just my income, too.

It feels like a lot. But... people go absolutely house bonkers. I'm sure we could push that to 30% or 35% from the bank perspective.

More than that, from a bank perspective. They're ridiculous, and approve people for way more than they can afford with any security margin.

We have a big house in the country with a 45 minute commute and good but not great salaries. But mortgage, taxes, and insurance, all together, are 22-24% of our income, depending on the month. Even that sometimes feels like a whole lot.

People always blame the evil bank, but guess what people need to take responsibility. The bank doesn't even get a full picture of people's finances really. They run credit checks and do debt/income ratios but they still can't see all the expenses people are incurring. The issue is when people suck at budgeting and assume because the bank approved them they can afford it. There were some really shady lenders pre housing crisis but most of them are long gone.

[nobodyspecial]

A week ago I was cleaning my 1.5 bathroom condo and came to the realization that while I want more space and I can afford a bigger house with some stretching, I should hold off until I can afford the big house and the maid.

Just have your wife do it. That's what women are for, after all.

That's the reason for gay marriage - now women can have a wife to look after them aswell !
 

[theadvicist]

People always blame the evil bank, but guess what people need to take responsibility. The bank doesn't even get a full picture of people's finances really. They run credit checks and do debt/income ratios but they still can't see all the expenses people are incurring. The issue is when people suck at budgeting and assume because the bank approved them they can afford it. There were some really shady lenders pre housing crisis but most of them are long gone.

Ugh, in the UK now the lending restrictions are so tight (which is a good thing), except SO MANY QUESTIONS and so much paperwork involved in our remortgage. They literally took down a line by line budget of everything, the affordability criteria is really strict here now.

I should do a post for 'mustachian people problems' thread because they just did not believe our expenses were so low.

Then when I told them I wanted to pay off a chunk of the mortgage, they were like, "well, we'll need proof of where the funds have come from!" and I'm like, "I JUST had to explain to you that we live on much less than we earn, that's where the funds came from". Among the things they asked us about as "basic living expenses" were pay TV, gambling, alcohol and tobacco!

[shelivesthedream]

This is the same cousin who posted over the holidays:  Ugh, just got done cleaning all five bathrooms.  I should hire a maid!   (one of her snarky friends called her out on it with a comment of "You really just posted that to show off that you have FIVE bathrooms?!?")

A week ago I was cleaning my 1.5 bathroom condo and came to the realization that while I want more space and I can afford a bigger house with some stretching, I should hold off until I can afford the big house and the maid.

Just have your wife do it. That's what women are for, after all.

Surely a wife is more expensive than a maid, what with all the haircuts and manicures and designer handbags and... uh... all that other woman stuff they spend money on.

[RWD]

People always blame the evil bank, but guess what people need to take responsibility. The bank doesn't even get a full picture of people's finances really. They run credit checks and do debt/income ratios but they still can't see all the expenses people are incurring. The issue is when people suck at budgeting and assume because the bank approved them they can afford it. There were some really shady lenders pre housing crisis but most of them are long gone.

Ugh, in the UK now the lending restrictions are so tight (which is a good thing), except SO MANY QUESTIONS and so much paperwork involved in our remortgage. They literally took down a line by line budget of everything, the affordability criteria is really strict here now.

I should do a post for 'mustachian people problems' thread because they just did not believe our expenses were so low.

Then when I told them I wanted to pay off a chunk of the mortgage, they were like, "well, we'll need proof of where the funds have come from!" and I'm like, "I JUST had to explain to you that we live on much less than we earn, that's where the funds came from". Among the things they asked us about as "basic living expenses" were pay TV, gambling, alcohol and tobacco!

Wow, that's crazy. It's not that strict here in the US but when we were getting our mortgage the lending bank wanted to see the checking account statement for a check that had already cleared...

[nobodyspecial]

Wow, that's crazy. It's not that strict here in the US but when we were getting our mortgage the lending bank wanted to see the checking account statement for a check that had already cleared...

Following from a lot of media stories about the Russian billionaires and drug lords buying £MM houses in London to launder stolen money - the government stepped in and made you go through this to get a mortgage.
One rental agency told us they couldn't take £20 cash for a copy of a key - because of money laundering rules.

Thinking is apparently banned in London.

[jinga nation]

Wow, that's crazy. It's not that strict here in the US but when we were getting our mortgage the lending bank wanted to see the checking account statement for a check that had already cleared...

Following from a lot of media stories about the Russian billionaires and drug lords buying £MM houses in London to launder stolen money - the government stepped in and made you go through this to get a mortgage.
One rental agency told us they couldn't take £20 cash for a copy of a key - because of money laundering rules.

Thinking is apparently banned in London.

It has been for a while. Even my wife, who lived there from 1997-2004, is astonished. Using logic will soon be criminalized. V for Vendetta. The Victorians are rolling in their graves.

[theadvicist]

Yep the money laundering regs are ridiculous!

We have (like any good mustacians) lots of money. I want to pay some off the mortgage, and they need to see where it came from. So I sent two years of bank statements (that's as long as our last mortgage, and as long as the linked account it's in has been open).

The statement clearly show x going in each month, only y going out each month, resulting in z underspend each month. z timesed by the number of months we've owned the house equals the savings.

But because we brought some savings into this account from a previous savings account (because all like good MMM followers we move the money to where the best rates are) they want statements for that account showing the underspend too... but that account was online only and I closed it 2 years ago, so that I would be eligible for 'new customer' bonuses again. Ahhhh!

[RFAAOATB]

This is the same cousin who posted over the holidays:  Ugh, just got done cleaning all five bathrooms.  I should hire a maid!   (one of her snarky friends called her out on it with a comment of "You really just posted that to show off that you have FIVE bathrooms?!?")

A week ago I was cleaning my 1.5 bathroom condo and came to the realization that while I want more space and I can afford a bigger house with some stretching, I should hold off until I can afford the big house and the maid.

Just have your wife do it. That's what women are for, after all.

That's what poor women are for.  Rich women outsource that to poor women.  As Senator Warren predicted, we fall in to the two income trap.  We would rather have more income for luxuries, savings, and self worth via job satisfaction than have one of us stay at home. 

[mm1970]

This is the same cousin who posted over the holidays:  Ugh, just got done cleaning all five bathrooms.  I should hire a maid!   (one of her snarky friends called her out on it with a comment of "You really just posted that to show off that you have FIVE bathrooms?!?")

A week ago I was cleaning my 1.5 bathroom condo and came to the realization that while I want more space and I can afford a bigger house with some stretching, I should hold off until I can afford the big house and the maid.

Just have your wife do it. That's what women are for, after all.

That's what poor women are for.  Rich women outsource that to poor women.  As Senator Warren predicted, we fall in to the two income trap.  We would rather have more income for luxuries, savings, and self worth via job satisfaction, health insurance, a safe place to live, the ability to support the family in case of a disaster/death/layoff, sanity, the ability to use our education and training than have one of us stay at home 24/7, because being home 70% of the time is plenty.

Fixed that for you.

[johnny847]

Yep the money laundering regs are ridiculous!

We have (like any good mustacians) lots of money. I want to pay some off the mortgage, and they need to see where it came from. So I sent two years of bank statements (that's as long as our last mortgage, and as long as the linked account it's in has been open).

The statement clearly show x going in each month, only y going out each month, resulting in z underspend each month. z timesed by the number of months we've owned the house equals the savings.

But because we brought some savings into this account from a previous savings account (because all like good MMM followers we move the money to where the best rates are) they want statements for that account showing the underspend too... but that account was online only and I closed it 2 years ago, so that I would be eligible for 'new customer' bonuses again. Ahhhh!

I take it you don't download your statements every month?

I do so every month. I never really had a good reason for it other than being OCD...but I guess I now have a reason to do so!
(Sort of. I'm not actually saving up for a house, but better to keep the habit up than to remember oh yeah two years before I want to pay off a mortgage I need to start collecting my statements....)

[BlueHouse]

Yep the money laundering regs are ridiculous!

We have (like any good mustacians) lots of money. I want to pay some off the mortgage, and they need to see where it came from. So I sent two years of bank statements (that's as long as our last mortgage, and as long as the linked account it's in has been open).

The statement clearly show x going in each month, only y going out each month, resulting in z underspend each month. z timesed by the number of months we've owned the house equals the savings.

But because we brought some savings into this account from a previous savings account (because all like good MMM followers we move the money to where the best rates are) they want statements for that account showing the underspend too... but that account was online only and I closed it 2 years ago, so that I would be eligible for 'new customer' bonuses again. Ahhhh!

I take it you don't download your statements every month?

I do so every month. I never really had a good reason for it other than being OCD...but I guess I now have a reason to do so!
(Sort of. I'm not actually saving up for a house, but better to keep the habit up than to remember oh yeah two years before I want to pay off a mortgage I need to start collecting my statements....)

I used to be OCD like that, and then one day, I just...stopped.  No idea what caused it.  I focus now on making sure I have documentation that I need.  For instance, when I pay something off, I want that receipt.  But when I incur a debt?  nope.  I don't care if it gets lost.  (except for the terms and conditions) 
Here's an interesting bit of information.  I'm sure it won't work in all cases, but for mustachians, it should because our loans typically don't stretch us so thin. When I took out my mortgage a few years ago, the banks were at the height of careful vetting.  They asked for scads and scads of proof and documentation, which I supplied.  The banks knew I was providing the same info to a different bank because I was competing them against one another.  Toward the end, when they asked for "just one more thing", I just stopped providing it.  They had everything they needed and everything they had asked for upfront.  I could tell it was someone in the back room looking over the paperwork trying to be extra-thorough.  I just stopped.  And all three banks offered me the loans.  I think there is a point where you can just stop giving them what they ask for. 

[dragoncar]

Yep the money laundering regs are ridiculous!

We have (like any good mustacians) lots of money. I want to pay some off the mortgage, and they need to see where it came from. So I sent two years of bank statements (that's as long as our last mortgage, and as long as the linked account it's in has been open).

The statement clearly show x going in each month, only y going out each month, resulting in z underspend each month. z timesed by the number of months we've owned the house equals the savings.

But because we brought some savings into this account from a previous savings account (because all like good MMM followers we move the money to where the best rates are) they want statements for that account showing the underspend too... but that account was online only and I closed it 2 years ago, so that I would be eligible for 'new customer' bonuses again. Ahhhh!

I take it you don't download your statements every month?

I do so every month. I never really had a good reason for it other than being OCD...but I guess I now have a reason to do so!
(Sort of. I'm not actually saving up for a house, but better to keep the habit up than to remember oh yeah two years before I want to pay off a mortgage I need to start collecting my statements....)

I used to be OCD like that, and then one day, I just...stopped.  No idea what caused it.  I focus now on making sure I have documentation that I need.  For instance, when I pay something off, I want that receipt.  But when I incur a debt?  nope.  I don't care if it gets lost.  (except for the terms and conditions) 
Here's an interesting bit of information.  I'm sure it won't work in all cases, but for mustachians, it should because our loans typically don't stretch us so thin. When I took out my mortgage a few years ago, the banks were at the height of careful vetting.  They asked for scads and scads of proof and documentation, which I supplied.  The banks knew I was providing the same info to a different bank because I was competing them against one another.  Toward the end, when they asked for "just one more thing", I just stopped providing it.  They had everything they needed and everything they had asked for upfront.  I could tell it was someone in the back room looking over the paperwork trying to be extra-thorough.  I just stopped.  And all three banks offered me the loans.  I think there is a point where you can just stop giving them what they ask for.

I still download my statements but I've gotten more lax.  I used to have accounts that would only provide 6 mo tha of statement history so I had to get them before the disappeared.  These days everyone archives my entire history.  Still, when the account closes I lose access. 

Once or twice a year I have a legitimate need to look up some transaction.  This week I couldn't remember where I went for a really cheap Smog check so I had to pull up a two year old statement

[LeRainDrop]

Yep the money laundering regs are ridiculous!

We have (like any good mustacians) lots of money. I want to pay some off the mortgage, and they need to see where it came from. So I sent two years of bank statements (that's as long as our last mortgage, and as long as the linked account it's in has been open).

The statement clearly show x going in each month, only y going out each month, resulting in z underspend each month. z timesed by the number of months we've owned the house equals the savings.

But because we brought some savings into this account from a previous savings account (because all like good MMM followers we move the money to where the best rates are) they want statements for that account showing the underspend too... but that account was online only and I closed it 2 years ago, so that I would be eligible for 'new customer' bonuses again. Ahhhh!

I take it you don't download your statements every month?

I do so every month. I never really had a good reason for it other than being OCD...but I guess I now have a reason to do so!
(Sort of. I'm not actually saving up for a house, but better to keep the habit up than to remember oh yeah two years before I want to pay off a mortgage I need to start collecting my statements....)

LOL, same as Johnny!  I just checked my back-up hard drive -- I still have pdfs of E*TRADE statements from 2000 (for an account I closed in 2006), power bills back to 2004, and cable/internet statements beginning in 2007.  Why do I still have all these???  I guess 'cause they don't take up any physical space.

[Kitsune]

This is the same cousin who posted over the holidays:  Ugh, just got done cleaning all five bathrooms.  I should hire a maid!   (one of her snarky friends called her out on it with a comment of "You really just posted that to show off that you have FIVE bathrooms?!?")

A week ago I was cleaning my 1.5 bathroom condo and came to the realization that while I want more space and I can afford a bigger house with some stretching, I should hold off until I can afford the big house and the maid.

Just have your wife do it. That's what women are for, after all.

That's what poor women are for.  Rich women outsource that to poor women.  As Senator Warren predicted, we fall in to the two income trap.  We would rather have more income for luxuries, savings, and self worth via job satisfaction, health insurance, a safe place to live, the ability to support the family in case of a disaster/death/layoff, sanity, the ability to use our education and training than have one of us stay at home 24/7, because being home 70% of the time is plenty.

Fixed that for you.

THISTHISTHISTHISTHIS.

Also, y'know, the knowledge that if my husband dies/leaves me/starts acting in ways that make me need to leave, my ability to support myself and my kids are not 100% linked to whether I chose to be sleeping with (or married to) a certain man. THAT HAS VALUE.

[shelivesthedream]

This is the same cousin who posted over the holidays:  Ugh, just got done cleaning all five bathrooms.  I should hire a maid!   (one of her snarky friends called her out on it with a comment of "You really just posted that to show off that you have FIVE bathrooms?!?")

A week ago I was cleaning my 1.5 bathroom condo and came to the realization that while I want more space and I can afford a bigger house with some stretching, I should hold off until I can afford the big house and the maid.

Just have your wife do it. That's what women are for, after all.

That's what poor women are for.  Rich women outsource that to poor women.  As Senator Warren predicted, we fall in to the two income trap.  We would rather have more income for luxuries, savings, and self worth via job satisfaction, health insurance, a safe place to live, the ability to support the family in case of a disaster/death/layoff, sanity, the ability to use our education and training than have one of us stay at home 24/7, because being home 70% of the time is plenty.

Fixed that for you.

Mmm, I don't know. If you replace "poor women" with "poor people", I think it does get at the perniciousness of the two income trap that many people fall into. (I am thinking of the income-rich middle classes who can afford to outsource their lives.) The number of people who say that they wish they could stay home with their children but can't afford to is shocking when you consider that a lot of them are well-compensated professionals who are earning minimum wage after accounting for daycare payments.

However, Penelope Trunk, a controversial but excellent blogger, wrote a lot a few years back about how people don't want to admit that they could afford to stay home with their children but don't want to because being around young children all day sucks. I think it's great when children have stay-at-home parents, but I recognise that is as long at the parent is happy to stay at home and doesn't feel like they would chew their own arm off for some adult company. (And other parents often don't count because it's all child-centric.)

I think my ideal utopian world, though, would have part-time work as well-regarded and appropriately compensated (i.e. not only available for shitty by-the-hour jobs but also for professional work, perhaps as a job share). I think a hardworking, skilled/trained person should be able to support their family (adequate food and shelter, not private school and tropical holidays) on one salary, or on two part-time salaries, and that should be normal and widely available. I think it would be great if everyone could work part-time - I think we'd all be a lot happier. I think it's partly that as a society we teach children to take pride in their career, not to take pride in their family or in doing things for themselves or in their hobbies which don't earn them money. I just wish people could say when they work because they need some time to be an adult rather than a parent and not be accused of basically hating their children, rather than having to pretend it's for other reasons. It would be so nice too if fathers could feel equally free to cut back on their hours or even give up work in order to look after their children without being "less of a man".

[TheGrimSqueaker]

This is the same cousin who posted over the holidays:  Ugh, just got done cleaning all five bathrooms.  I should hire a maid!   (one of her snarky friends called her out on it with a comment of "You really just posted that to show off that you have FIVE bathrooms?!?")

A week ago I was cleaning my 1.5 bathroom condo and came to the realization that while I want more space and I can afford a bigger house with some stretching, I should hold off until I can afford the big house and the maid.

Just have your wife do it. That's what women are for, after all.

That's what poor women are for.  Rich women outsource that to poor women.  As Senator Warren predicted, we fall in to the two income trap.  We would rather have more income for luxuries, savings, and self worth via job satisfaction, health insurance, a safe place to live, the ability to support the family in case of a disaster/death/layoff, sanity, the ability to use our education and training than have one of us stay at home 24/7, because being home 70% of the time is plenty.

Fixed that for you.

Mmm, I don't know. If you replace "poor women" with "poor people", I think it does get at the perniciousness of the two income trap that many people fall into. (I am thinking of the income-rich middle classes who can afford to outsource their lives.) The number of people who say that they wish they could stay home with their children but can't afford to is shocking when you consider that a lot of them are well-compensated professionals who are earning minimum wage after accounting for daycare payments.

However, Penelope Trunk, a controversial but excellent blogger, wrote a lot a few years back about how people don't want to admit that they could afford to stay home with their children but don't want to because being around young children all day sucks. I think it's great when children have stay-at-home parents, but I recognise that is as long at the parent is happy to stay at home and doesn't feel like they would chew their own arm off for some adult company. (And other parents often don't count because it's all child-centric.)

I think my ideal utopian world, though, would have part-time work as well-regarded and appropriately compensated (i.e. not only available for shitty by-the-hour jobs but also for professional work, perhaps as a job share). I think a hardworking, skilled/trained person should be able to support their family (adequate food and shelter, not private school and tropical holidays) on one salary, or on two part-time salaries, and that should be normal and widely available. I think it would be great if everyone could work part-time - I think we'd all be a lot happier. I think it's partly that as a society we teach children to take pride in their career, not to take pride in their family or in doing things for themselves or in their hobbies which don't earn them money. I just wish people could say when they work because they need some time to be an adult rather than a parent and not be accused of basically hating their children, rather than having to pretend it's for other reasons. It would be so nice too if fathers could feel equally free to cut back on their hours or even give up work in order to look after their children without being "less of a man".

It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

I'm a huge fan of splitting the nasty work evenly, and being stuck in a house with children DOES suck. Nothing about that situation is traditional or natural. Loading all the responsibility for that onto one designated caregiving adult is a form of torture.

In agrarian or hunter/gatherer societies, small children helped with some of the foraging or incidental work around the farm, and they were outside the dwelling. There was also a collective behavior wherein the kids ran around in packs and supervision duties were shared between adults who were willing and able to look out for kids who weren't theirs. Each caregiver wasn't hemmed in with 100% of the responsibility for a few designated recipients and little to no contact with the outside world. There was such thing as reciprocity and exchange. This pattern exists in modern agrarian and hunter/gatherer societies, and it's also supported by the archaeological record. If you take a look at some of the earliest ruins, you'll see how small the living spaces were. People didn't live indoors full-time except briefly during the winter.

[randymarsh]

It would be so nice too if fathers could feel equally free to cut back on their hours or even give up work in order to look after their children without being "less of a man".

It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Wouldn't it be even better for neither parent to be expected to be a Superman/Superwoman?

I'm all about better work/life balance and making parenthood and professional work more compatible, but I think at a certain point we're deluding ourselves. Can people really clean the house, raise the kids, and be a great CEO/Director/President at the same time? Something has got to give.

[dragoncar]

It would be so nice too if fathers could feel equally free to cut back on their hours or even give up work in order to look after their children without being "less of a man".

It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Wouldn't it be even better for neither parent to be expected to be a Superman/Superwoman?

I'm all about better work/life balance and making parenthood and professional work more compatible, but I think at a certain point we're deluding ourselves. Can people really clean the house, raise the kids, and be a great CEO/Director/President at the same time? Something has got to give.

Uh, that's what mole people are for.  You feed them a steady diet of roots and herbs, and they clean your house, raise your kids, and run your company.  All that's left for you to do is gather the roots and herbs.

[johnny847]

Yep the money laundering regs are ridiculous!

We have (like any good mustacians) lots of money. I want to pay some off the mortgage, and they need to see where it came from. So I sent two years of bank statements (that's as long as our last mortgage, and as long as the linked account it's in has been open).

The statement clearly show x going in each month, only y going out each month, resulting in z underspend each month. z timesed by the number of months we've owned the house equals the savings.

But because we brought some savings into this account from a previous savings account (because all like good MMM followers we move the money to where the best rates are) they want statements for that account showing the underspend too... but that account was online only and I closed it 2 years ago, so that I would be eligible for 'new customer' bonuses again. Ahhhh!

I take it you don't download your statements every month?

I do so every month. I never really had a good reason for it other than being OCD...but I guess I now have a reason to do so!
(Sort of. I'm not actually saving up for a house, but better to keep the habit up than to remember oh yeah two years before I want to pay off a mortgage I need to start collecting my statements....)

LOL, same as Johnny!  I just checked my back-up hard drive -- I still have pdfs of E*TRADE statements from 2000 (for an account I closed in 2006), power bills back to 2004, and cable/internet statements beginning in 2007.  Why do I still have all these???  I guess 'cause they don't take up any physical space.

Haha you've got me beat. I've only got statements back till 2011.
Then again I didn't have a bank account until 2009.

[SwordGuy]

In agrarian or hunter/gatherer societies, small children helped with some of the foraging or incidental work around the farm, and they were outside the dwelling. There was also a collective behavior wherein the kids ran around in packs and supervision duties were shared between adults who were willing and able to look out for kids who weren't theirs. Each caregiver wasn't hemmed in with 100% of the responsibility for a few designated recipients and little to no contact with the outside world. There was such thing as reciprocity and exchange. This pattern exists in modern agrarian and hunter/gatherer societies, and it's also supported by the archaeological record. If you take a look at some of the earliest ruins, you'll see how small the living spaces were. People didn't live indoors full-time except briefly during the winter.

One of the ideas I've been trying to float out there and get accepted is for agencies who help the poor to provide a parent childcare match-up service.   Most people don't actually know their neighbors anymore.

So, here's the idea.  People who need childcare register with the agency.    They supply how many children need care, their ages and genders, any special needs, and what hours the care is needed for.  They also supply which hours they themselves would be available to watch children.

The agency puts people in contact with one another along with a background check on the people living in the relevant homes.

It's up to the folks to work out a schedule that works for them.  In effect, they would take turns watching each other's kids. 

If a facility was available, the kids could be watched there rather than in someone's home.

Done properly it would be reasonably safe and could cut childcare costs considerably.

[faithless]

One of the ideas I've been trying to float out there and get accepted is for agencies who help the poor to provide a parent childcare match-up service.   Most people don't actually know their neighbors anymore.

So, here's the idea.  People who need childcare register with the agency.    They supply how many children need care, their ages and genders, any special needs, and what hours the care is needed for.  They also supply which hours they themselves would be available to watch children.

The agency puts people in contact with one another along with a background check on the people living in the relevant homes.

It's up to the folks to work out a schedule that works for them.  In effect, they would take turns watching each other's kids. 

If a facility was available, the kids could be watched there rather than in someone's home.

Done properly it would be reasonably safe and could cut childcare costs considerably.

Great idea. Reminds me of this ridiculous situation where some interfering agencies decided that was illegal in the UK for one person to look after another person's kid's on a reciprocal arrangement:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/sep/28/government-orders-review-babysitting-police

[I'm a red panda]

Got invited to a new MLM scheme party.

This time it's clothes.  A "pop up party".

Then I looked into it and found out not only is this stuff fugly (it's all wild prints- that I have never seen anyone wearing anything like this- but I'm sure the women will all go crazy for it, then stuff it in the back of their closet), the consultant has to own the inventory (most MLMs seemed to have moved away from this and drop ship), and the minimum initial investment is $5k.

Brilliant design on the company; but wow, talk about a guaranteed way for most people to lose money.

[MgoSam]

One of the ideas I've been trying to float out there and get accepted is for agencies who help the poor to provide a parent childcare match-up service.   Most people don't actually know their neighbors anymore.

So, here's the idea.  People who need childcare register with the agency.    They supply how many children need care, their ages and genders, any special needs, and what hours the care is needed for.  They also supply which hours they themselves would be available to watch children.

The agency puts people in contact with one another along with a background check on the people living in the relevant homes.

It's up to the folks to work out a schedule that works for them.  In effect, they would take turns watching each other's kids. 

If a facility was available, the kids could be watched there rather than in someone's home.

Done properly it would be reasonably safe and could cut childcare costs considerably.

Great idea. Reminds me of this ridiculous situation where some interfering agencies decided that was illegal in the UK for one person to look after another person's kid's on a reciprocal arrangement:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/sep/28/government-orders-review-babysitting-police

I remember a high school teacher that I was close to my senior year almost freaking out when she found that my parents were out of the country for a few weeks and that I would be home alone. I calmly explained that my neighbors are there and I have 3 pairs of aunts/uncles within a half mile of my house. It actually kinda sucked cause I couldn't throw a party with so many wary eyes....

[mm1970]

I think my ideal utopian world, though, would have part-time work as well-regarded and appropriately compensated (i.e. not only available for shitty by-the-hour jobs but also for professional work, perhaps as a job share). I think a hardworking, skilled/trained person should be able to support their family (adequate food and shelter, not private school and tropical holidays) on one salary, or on two part-time salaries, and that should be normal and widely available. I think it would be great if everyone could work part-time - I think we'd all be a lot happier. I think it's partly that as a society we teach children to take pride in their career, not to take pride in their family or in doing things for themselves or in their hobbies which don't earn them money. I just wish people could say when they work because they need some time to be an adult rather than a parent and not be accused of basically hating their children, rather than having to pretend it's for other reasons. It would be so nice too if fathers could feel equally free to cut back on their hours or even give up work in order to look after their children without being "less of a man".

Preaching to the choir here.  The best time of my life has been working part time.  I felt like I had the best of both worlds. 

It didn't really matter that I needed to pay for full time childcare.
I would work 6 hours a day, but needed about 7 hours of childcare, which is the same price as 8 or 9 hours. So 75% of the pay for full time child care.

The advantages: wiggle room for those 30 hours a week.  I used MUCH less vacation time.  If I needed time off for the doctor, dentist, sick time, school program (me or the kids), I could take it.  No biggie.  If it was 2 hours, I had 2 whole weeks to make up those hours whenever.  Heck, I could skip lunch 2 days, and there you go.

I could have a leisurely morning with the kid/ kids, AND then get off at 3.  Pick them up at child care/ school, take them to the park, play, do homework, and STILL have time to cook dinner!
At 30 hours, I still got vacation (just less of it) and health insurance.  I was a lot more focused at work because I wasn't exhausted, and got almost as much done.

Unfortunately, *most* tech jobs aren't set up that way, and for no good reason.  Over the last couple of decades, I've just seen companies increase the work load.  The assumption is 50 hours a week.  If you aren't interested in doing that, then you simply aren't dedicated.  You aren't worth whatever your title is, because obviously you don't care enough.  Nevermind that you still have the skills to do the job, and you just only want to do the job for 30 hours.

My husband told me a couple of weeks ago "I can tell I'm middle aged".  I asked "how".  He said "well, despite getting paid a decent amount, I really don't care to work overtime." (and he works in a rare company that pays engineers by the hour - not 1.5x, but if he works 50 hrs, he gets paid for it.)  So his company is super busy with a lot of contracts right now.  He said "I just want to work my 40 and come home and hang out with my family."

We're going to be experimenting for one week this summer - we are skipping a week of summer camp  for the older child (10 yo).  We are going to split the work day and do a little bit of work from home.  We do that occasionally when someone is sick, but there is always the pressure to work more.  I think that's the hardest part - the pressure to do more, the guilt that you aren't doing more.  You know, I've come to realize that unrealistic expectations really aren't my problem.  Sorry, I have a baseball game to get to.  Yes, I will do that project, after these other 5.

And as far as admitting what we want.  I can afford to stay at home.  I admit it all the time.  I do not want to stay at home.  I would *love* to work PT again, but my company and boss will not allow it.  However, I have a very flexible schedule now.  So I work late on the 2x a week that I need to be here for meetings.  And I leave early whenever I want on the other days.

[Chris22]

It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Most of that criticism comes from other mothers/women.  Let's face it, (some of) you women tend to be horrific to one another.  Whereas if a man doesn't mow his lawn one week, his man neighbors likely think "great Jim didn't mow his lawn so now it won't look bad if I don't mow mine."

[TheGrimSqueaker]

It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Most of that criticism comes from other mothers/women.  Let's face it, (some of) you women tend to be horrific to one another.  Whereas if a man doesn't mow his lawn one week, his man neighbors likely think "great Jim didn't mow his lawn so now it won't look bad if I don't mow mine."

It's true that females are vicious to each other, but the vast majority of the undone housework is not visible outside the home. So that's not where the criticism comes from.

Ever hear a kid whine when dinner isn't ready on time or when they're late to a birthday party? How about a working parent who has an important business meeting that day but whose suit is still at the dry cleaner's, or who has just come back from a long day at work to trip over something left in the living room? That's where most of the pressure comes from, and it's directed at the designated housework-doer.

[Chris22]

It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Most of that criticism comes from other mothers/women.  Let's face it, (some of) you women tend to be horrific to one another.  Whereas if a man doesn't mow his lawn one week, his man neighbors likely think "great Jim didn't mow his lawn so now it won't look bad if I don't mow mine."

It's true that females are vicious to each other, but the vast majority of the undone housework is not visible outside the home. So that's not where the criticism comes from.

Ever hear a kid whine when dinner isn't ready on time or when they're late to a birthday party? How about a working parent who has an important business meeting that day but whose suit is still at the dry cleaner's, or who has just come back from a long day at work to trip over something left in the living room? That's where most of the pressure comes from, and it's directed at the designated housework-doer.

Sounds awfully specific, like maybe it's specific to your home?  Maybe you should take it up with your family, I thought you were referring to the societal pressures placed on women (mostly by other women) to have a perfect home.

[vivophoenix]

It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Most of that criticism comes from other mothers/women.  Let's face it, (some of) you women tend to be horrific to one another.  Whereas if a man doesn't mow his lawn one week, his man neighbors likely think "great Jim didn't mow his lawn so now it won't look bad if I don't mow mine."

\

i wonder who started the women are so mean to each other myth.

no woman has ever told me, upon meeting, that i should hurry up and have kids before my uterus falls out.

[MrMoogle]

I think my ideal utopian world, though, would have part-time work as well-regarded and appropriately compensated (i.e. not only available for shitty by-the-hour jobs but also for professional work, perhaps as a job share). I think a hardworking, skilled/trained person should be able to support their family (adequate food and shelter, not private school and tropical holidays) on one salary, or on two part-time salaries, and that should be normal and widely available. I think it would be great if everyone could work part-time - I think we'd all be a lot happier. I think it's partly that as a society we teach children to take pride in their career, not to take pride in their family or in doing things for themselves or in their hobbies which don't earn them money. I just wish people could say when they work because they need some time to be an adult rather than a parent and not be accused of basically hating their children, rather than having to pretend it's for other reasons. It would be so nice too if fathers could feel equally free to cut back on their hours or even give up work in order to look after their children without being "less of a man".

My husband told me a couple of weeks ago "I can tell I'm middle aged".  I asked "how".  He said "well, despite getting paid a decent amount, I really don't care to work overtime." (and he works in a rare company that pays engineers by the hour - not 1.5x, but if he works 50 hrs, he gets paid for it.)  So his company is super busy with a lot of contracts right now.  He said "I just want to work my 40 and come home and hang out with my family."

It's funny, where I work, it's the single young people who just want to put in their 40, since they have other things to do, and the income to do it.  The middle aged with families are the ones always volunteering for more hours, as they need more income.

[BTDretire]

I used to be OCD like that, and then one day, I just...stopped.  No idea what caused it.  I focus now on making sure I have documentation that I need.  For instance, when I pay something off, I want that receipt.

I learned that lesson 42 years ago. I had taken out a small student loan at the local community college,  it was a minor amount less than $1,000. I had paid it back in full. The receipts, ah, well thrown in a drawer. They came after me asking for payment, I had some receipts but not all. I didn't have the receipt for a $300 payment.
 It was a one on one interview, I insisted I  paid it which I did. A couple weeks later I got a call that the account was closed, she said she found my record of payment in the
next file behind mine. I'll never know for sure if she just believed me or if she truely found the record. I think their system was a bit shoddy.  As was mine, at that time.
Now, I have a file cabinet with folders with many catagories, It is perged at the end of the year and those records are marked with the year and put in a box with previous years.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Most of that criticism comes from other mothers/women.  Let's face it, (some of) you women tend to be horrific to one another.  Whereas if a man doesn't mow his lawn one week, his man neighbors likely think "great Jim didn't mow his lawn so now it won't look bad if I don't mow mine."

It's true that females are vicious to each other, but the vast majority of the undone housework is not visible outside the home. So that's not where the criticism comes from.

Ever hear a kid whine when dinner isn't ready on time or when they're late to a birthday party? How about a working parent who has an important business meeting that day but whose suit is still at the dry cleaner's, or who has just come back from a long day at work to trip over something left in the living room? That's where most of the pressure comes from, and it's directed at the designated housework-doer.

Sounds awfully specific, like maybe it's specific to your home?  Maybe you should take it up with your family, I thought you were referring to the societal pressures placed on women (mostly by other women) to have a perfect home.

I am referring to the societal pressures: when you're confined to the home, the home IS your society. When it's composed of small humans who need your attention now-now-now, as toddlers do, the work really never is finished but when the rest of the population needs or wants something, where do they go? To the full-time caregiver, not the person who just got home from work. That's generally the woman but it's not a truly gender specific thing.

As to my family, I never married so I don't have anyone making an extra mess in my home. Just one teenaged daughter, and I work full-time so she doesn't expect caregiving as such. But of course I'm the one who gets asked what's for dinner, being the adult and all.

[shelivesthedream]

It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Most of that criticism comes from other mothers/women.  Let's face it, (some of) you women tend to be horrific to one another.  Whereas if a man doesn't mow his lawn one week, his man neighbors likely think "great Jim didn't mow his lawn so now it won't look bad if I don't mow mine."

It's true that females are vicious to each other, but the vast majority of the undone housework is not visible outside the home. So that's not where the criticism comes from.

Ever hear a kid whine when dinner isn't ready on time or when they're late to a birthday party? How about a working parent who has an important business meeting that day but whose suit is still at the dry cleaner's, or who has just come back from a long day at work to trip over something left in the living room? That's where most of the pressure comes from, and it's directed at the designated housework-doer.

Sounds awfully specific, like maybe it's specific to your home?  Maybe you should take it up with your family, I thought you were referring to the societal pressures placed on women (mostly by other women) to have a perfect home.

I am referring to the societal pressures: when you're confined to the home, the home IS your society. When it's composed of small humans who need your attention now-now-now, as toddlers do, the work really never is finished but when the rest of the population needs or wants something, where do they go? To the full-time caregiver, not the person who just got home from work. That's generally the woman but it's not a truly gender specific thing.

As to my family, I never married so I don't have anyone making an extra mess in my home. Just one teenaged daughter, and I work full-time so she doesn't expect caregiving as such. But of course I'm the one who gets asked what's for dinner, being the adult and all.

I didn't mean to start a discussion about who is oppressing or not oppressing women in the home. As much as I occasionally seethe with vengeful rage and wish that "you men" could experience being a woman doing [traditional women's thing I am doing that sucks or traditional men's thing that I am being patronised for] for a day, I don't really want men to have a sucky life just to make women feel better about the sucky bits of their lives. The world wouldn't be better if men felt intense pressure to keep their lawn perfect in case other men judged them as morally bad humans. As my father always used to say, two wrongs don't make a right. We need to take the pressure off women to be perfect, not put it on men.

I don't know where the idea comes from (whether from society, their mother or childhood, other women, family) that women need to be perfect, but I do know that a lot of women feel that not being a good homemaker makes them a morally bad person - "I can't even get my irrational screaming child dressed on time in the morning, let alone bake cupcakes and iron the curtains - I must be such a failure, I bet every other woman in the world has children who literally never cry and spend the whole day skipping around holding hands and then come inside to eat all their dinner without a fuss. What am I doing wrong? It must be because I am a terrible person and ruining my children's lives forever."

It's just that for all the push to get women into the workplace and get rid of the glass ceiling and make us equal in our professional lives, it ain't never gonna happen if men don't correspondingly step up at home. We also need to get rid of the glass... uh... mop! We need to recognise that there is working outside the home (which I think is fairly prestigious) and there is working inside the home (which no one gives a crap about except when dinner is late) and they are both WORK and they are both IMPORTANT and they BOTH need to be shared out fairly. But somehow study after study says that women work full time outside the home and then work way over half time inside the home as well. Why? What are we going to do about it? I think that's one of the big questions of the century.

(My answer, as drop-in-the-ocean as it is, is to bring all my future children up to do the same chores. Every single one of them will get a go at doing every chore, so girls will have to mow the lawn and boys will have to iron. There will be no learned helplessness when it comes to certain chores. As for me and my husband, I foresee that I may well do most of the housework and childcare across our lives, because I currently work part time and don't expect that to increase in the future. However, at the moment it works out well that when he is busy, I do more housework, and when I am busy, he does more housework. But I damn well feel appreciated doing it, and that he recognises that it is an entire job by itself and takes up a lot of time. As someone who is very aware of the history of feminist discourse over the last fifty or so years, I often feel bad that I work less and do more housework, but then I feel bad for feeling bad. Women didn't fight for my right to work, they fought for my right to do whatever the fuck I want, including work. So I'm going to do just that.)

[theadvicist]

(My answer, as drop-in-the-ocean as it is, is to bring all my future children up to do the same chores. Every single one of them will get a go at doing every chore, so girls will have to mow the lawn and boys will have to iron. There will be no learned helplessness when it comes to certain chores. As for me and my husband, I foresee that I may well do most of the housework and childcare across our lives, because I currently work part time and don't expect that to increase in the future. However, at the moment it works out well that when he is busy, I do more housework, and when I am busy, he does more housework. But I damn well feel appreciated doing it, and that he recognises that it is an entire job by itself and takes up a lot of time. As someone who is very aware of the history of feminist discourse over the last fifty or so years, I often feel bad that I work less and do more housework, but then I feel bad for feeling bad. Women didn't fight for my right to work, they fought for my right to do whatever the fuck I want, including work. So I'm going to do just that.)

This is great.

My upbringing didn't mean I followed that script though: I had a 'traditional' upbringing in that my father did NOTHING at home, like ever, and my mum did EVERYTHING and WORKED FULL-TIME!

I could see that was illogical because, you know, I have eyes.

When I got married I said, "So you will be creating half the consumption and mess of this household. How would you like to divide it's maintenance?" and we each picked things we like to do, and traded off what we don't. I cook, he cleans etc. The one thing we couldn't agree on was who should change the bed linen, so we do it together, and now it's kind of fun.

Most of my female friends do WAY WAY WAY more than their husbands, and endlessly complain about it. And I'm like, why do you live like that? Of course no-one else is going to do the laundry if all that happens when they don't is... you do it.

So yes to historic inequalities etc, but I actually put a lot of this on women themselves. These are educated, working, young women. Why didn't they have the same conversation? Why did they just start doing everything, whilst also complaining about it? I just don't get it.

[shelivesthedream]

(My answer, as drop-in-the-ocean as it is, is to bring all my future children up to do the same chores. Every single one of them will get a go at doing every chore, so girls will have to mow the lawn and boys will have to iron. There will be no learned helplessness when it comes to certain chores. As for me and my husband, I foresee that I may well do most of the housework and childcare across our lives, because I currently work part time and don't expect that to increase in the future. However, at the moment it works out well that when he is busy, I do more housework, and when I am busy, he does more housework. But I damn well feel appreciated doing it, and that he recognises that it is an entire job by itself and takes up a lot of time. As someone who is very aware of the history of feminist discourse over the last fifty or so years, I often feel bad that I work less and do more housework, but then I feel bad for feeling bad. Women didn't fight for my right to work, they fought for my right to do whatever the fuck I want, including work. So I'm going to do just that.)

This is great.

My upbringing didn't mean I followed that script though: I had a 'traditional' upbringing in that my father did NOTHING at home, like ever, and my mum did EVERYTHING and WORKED FULL-TIME!

I could see that was illogical because, you know, I have eyes.

When I got married I said, "So you will be creating half the consumption and mess of this household. How would you like to divide it's maintenance?" and we each picked things we like to do, and traded off what we don't. I cook, he cleans etc. The one thing we couldn't agree on was who should change the bed linen, so we do it together, and now it's kind of fun.

Most of my female friends do WAY WAY WAY more than their husbands, and endlessly complain about it. And I'm like, why do you live like that? Of course no-one else is going to do the laundry if all that happens when they don't is... you do it.

So yes to historic inequalities etc, but I actually put a lot of this on women themselves. These are educated, working, young women. Why didn't they have the same conversation? Why did they just start doing everything, whilst also complaining about it? I just don't get it.

I don't really understand why some people never seem to have 'the conversation', but there is a lot of research to say that both partners in any given relationship always feel like they are doing more housework than they are, so maybe the person who feels like they are doing less is actually doing half? Our 'conversation' when we first started living together ended up with the following rules:
1. We each get to designate one particularly hated chore that is always the other person's job. My job is taking out the bin, his is cleaning the loo. We are allowed to ask the other person to do that job if we think they have not done it.
2. For everything else, if you care that much, do it yourself.

Rule #2 is crucial and avoids the tyranny of one partner imposing their ideas on the other or of dividing up the chores, one partner not doing one of 'their' chores, and the other partner doing it for them because they can't stand it. It also allows for different things being important to us (like if he needs the bathroom to be spotless but I don't care, or if I have to hoover in all the corners but he'd just do the middle of the room). It means he is never allowed to complain that I haven't done something or that I've done it wrong, because if it's that important to him he can put the rubber gloves on and get on with it. It means we sometimes live in squalour when we both feel too busy to do housework but we never have fights about it because the only options are 1. put up with it, or 2. do it. There is no complain or nag option.

I do wonder if this will have to change when we have children, because we'll need to be more organised about making sure everything gets done in a timely way. I'm not sure. I think we might have to be firmer about doing laundry before we run out of clothes or doing dishes before we realise there is nothing to eat off, but maybe the rest can stay as it is.

[mamagoose]

When I got married I said, "So you will be creating half the consumption and mess of this household. How would you like to divide it's maintenance?" and we each picked things we like to do, and traded off what we don't. I cook, he cleans etc. The one thing we couldn't agree on was who should change the bed linen, so we do it together, and now it's kind of fun.

Most of my female friends do WAY WAY WAY more than their husbands, and endlessly complain about it. And I'm like, why do you live like that? Of course no-one else is going to do the laundry if all that happens when they don't is... you do it.

So yes to historic inequalities etc, but I actually put a lot of this on women themselves. These are educated, working, young women. Why didn't they have the same conversation? Why did they just start doing everything, whilst also complaining about it? I just don't get it.

I totally get this logic, and we had this discussion during marriage prep counseling. We sat down with a list of chores and said who would like to do which chores (down to the detailed level of "who will shop for family Christmas gifts"). In a perfect world it would follow your logic where we each clean up a somewhat equal portion of the messes we create (i.e. wash your own dishes, fold your own laundry). In real life, we have a big ass yard that needs mowing, so my husband spends a lot of his chore time maintaining stupid stupid stupid lawn that just keeps growing even though we never water it! If we didn't have the yardwork tipping the scales in his direction, our interior chore division would be straight up 50/50 because he's a great partner. Stupid lawn.

[Kitsune]

I do wonder if this will have to change when we have children, because we'll need to be more organised about making sure everything gets done in a timely way. I'm not sure. I think we might have to be firmer about doing laundry before we run out of clothes or doing dishes before we realise there is nothing to eat off, but maybe the rest can stay as it is.

Your 'if you care so much, you do it' rule was a problem for us... and then we had children, and it was flat-out unsustainable.

My husband DIDN'T care about the state of the floor, the state of the bathtub, and the tidying, and just wanted to play video games. BUT, if you have a learning-to-crawl child in the picture: they are taking a bath (as opposed to a shower) so a non-scuzzy tub is a plus. If they throw meat off their tray at dinnertime and you don't clean the floor, they WILL find it and eat it 24 hours later (eewwwww). If there's stuff everywhere, they don't SEE their toys, and either destroy everything or become kinda frazzled and harder to deal with because there's too much going on. Like, if it was just me occasionally wanting a bath or clean floors, fine, I'd do them every so often... but it kind of affects an innocent third party too, so get off your tush and help, y'know?

In our case: I'm not a neat-freak, but I'm pretty sure floors should be cleaned before cat hair starts rolling down the hallway in clumps, that the bathtub needs a quick scrub before there are visible rings around it, etc. Functionally, this means that I/we do dishes every night and run the dishwasher, put away our things daily, vacuum the floors 1-2x/week depending on season (kids+mud...), wash the floors and bathroom and everything else maybe every 2 weeks, and do the dusting... erm... every month or two, maybe, when we get around to it. Maybe. Not a huge amount of cleaning, overall, but when it doesn't get done the place gets nasty, and you can't live in a small space and not put things away. We'd fight about that every so often (pattern: I'd do it all. I'd pitch a fit. He'd do 50% for a few weeks. And then it'd start slipping, and slipping, and then 3 months later I'd do it all and pitch a fit, repeat).

What stopped it was when I realized that I was working 50-hour weeks, doing a good 80% of the childcare, running ALL the errands, doing ALL the cleaning, and cooking ALL the food. While he worked 35 hours/week from home. I, erm... lost it. And basically said that this was it, that the pattern was breaking, and that we were FIXING THIS or I was LEAVING, and I MEANT IT (and I meant it. I'd visited apartments, I meant it so bad. It wasn't an aimless threat, it was a 'I am letting you know that this is unsustainable for me; we can fix the situation or I can remove myself from it, your choice'). That was over a year ago.

There's been occasional backsliding, with apologies and acknowledgement, and the housework, outdoor work, and childcare is actually now split in a way that gives us equal free time, which is really all I was asking for. The house is never neat and 'perfect', but it's livable and good, and that's all I'm asking for too. But the fact that it took me hitting the wall and promising I'd leave... honestly, I'm still frustrated that it took that much.

[Kitsune]

the housework, outdoor work, and childcare is actually now split in a way that gives us equal free time, which is really all I was asking for.

Oh my god. I'm using this next time we have to have a sit down about chores. I never thought about it that way but that's exactly what I'm looking for every time we have this conversation.

YES! And this also assumes that if I'm suddenly working 20 hours/week while he works 50, then OBVIOUSLY I'm doing more housework. But seeing him at the computer playing video games while I'm taking care of a child AND tidying AND throwing together dinner, all at the same time? Watch steam come out my ears (and then very calm words about how this is unacceptable, and shape up, come out my mouth).

[theadvicist]

When I got married I said, "So you will be creating half the consumption and mess of this household. How would you like to divide it's maintenance?" and we each picked things we like to do, and traded off what we don't. I cook, he cleans etc. The one thing we couldn't agree on was who should change the bed linen, so we do it together, and now it's kind of fun.

Most of my female friends do WAY WAY WAY more than their husbands, and endlessly complain about it. And I'm like, why do you live like that? Of course no-one else is going to do the laundry if all that happens when they don't is... you do it.

So yes to historic inequalities etc, but I actually put a lot of this on women themselves. These are educated, working, young women. Why didn't they have the same conversation? Why did they just start doing everything, whilst also complaining about it? I just don't get it.

I totally get this logic, and we had this discussion during marriage prep counseling. We sat down with a list of chores and said who would like to do which chores (down to the detailed level of "who will shop for family Christmas gifts"). In a perfect world it would follow your logic where we each clean up a somewhat equal portion of the messes we create (i.e. wash your own dishes, fold your own laundry). In real life, we have a big ass yard that needs mowing, so my husband spends a lot of his chore time maintaining stupid stupid stupid lawn that just keeps growing even though we never water it! If we didn't have the yardwork tipping the scales in his direction, our interior chore division would be straight up 50/50 because he's a great partner. Stupid lawn.

Sorry, that wasn't my logic at all. When I said, "how would you divide it's maintenance" I was working on the principle that by creating half of the mess and consumption we were each responsible for half it's maintenance, but actually, our split sounds quite like yours. It's not you clean up your mess, I'll clean up mine, it's: I'll do all the cooking because I enjoy it. Therefore I'll do all the food shopping because I'll know what we need. He does all cleaning. Everything. He also washes both our cars. I do all laundry. We have a ridiculous level of detail too eg. he organises all transportation at home (train tickets, taxis etc) I do all international travel (hotels etc).

I sometimes feel like Leonard and Sheldon in the Big Bang Theory with their room mate agreement, but honestly, although it sounds kind of mean-spirited to split everything so exactly, actually, it means we have zero arguments, and certainly far less resentment than most other couples I know. We each know what we have to do, and we get on with it.

And we're not massively strict about things - he'll cook dinner if I'm feeling rough, I'll wipe down the bathroom if we've got company and I know he hasn't had time.

Also, his father once said, "Who cleans your windows?!" clearly implying no-one did. I said, "your son, but if you don't think he's doing a good job, there's a rag under the sink!". Yeah, he doesn't comment on our house anymore.

[RedBaron3]

big Facebook debate here over night, our property values are increasing exponentially, so our property taxes are increasing as well. but taxes are capped at 10% growth per year, and values are going faster than that. And everyone is furious. It's simple math. my house is up like 20k and it's going to cost me $500 this year. I would do unforgivable things to get that rate of return with any of my other investments.

I am also in PA and received an assessment hearing notice stating that the school board is appealing my assessment as my purchase price in January 2015 was 30% higher than the previous county assessment.  This will surely raise my taxes ~30% as well.  I can cover it and try to look at the positives (it's another tax deduction and it's actual fair since that's the true property value) but I'm sure others would be in trouble, especially if they just recently bought the home with payments at the top of their budget. 

[Kitsune]

Also, his father once said, "Who cleans your windows?!" clearly implying no-one did. I said, "your son, but if you don't think he's doing a good job, there's a rag under the sink!". Yeah, he doesn't comment on our house anymore.

I'm saving this to use on my in-laws.

They've recently been making snarky comments because we hired a cleaning person (who comes for a half-day every 2 weeks for a total monthly cost of about 130$CAD). Reason: I have started working more hours at my job, taking away from the available household maintenance hours, and so, after paying the cleaning person, we are making 563$ MORE per month than we were before. This is a sensible expense, yo. Plus I'd rather work my job than clean my house, and if I'm gonna make more money doing something I prefer doing, then, hey! :) (Also, this gives us the weekend time to a) spend time with our daughter, and b) do the deck-building, barn-building, tree-planting, etc - things that would cost 20-60$/hour to hire out, as opposed to 15$/hour for the cleaner. THIS IS A SENSIBLE TIME/MONEY ALLOCATION, and it leaves us with the most money and the most done by the end of summer.

My in-laws are pulling the 'but cleaning people are so expensive' and 'only RICH people hire people to clean their houses, who do you think you are'. And I'm steaming mad that they pull this stuff when we invite them over for dinner. Like, you're a guest in our home. Appreciate what's offered, say thank you, and cut the fucking judgement, or get the fuck out and go bitch about us ELSEWHERE.

I am... very frustrated with them right now.

[MrsDinero]

I have 2 new ones:

1.  Is a single dad who lives in a 1 bedroom apartment with his kid.  He was planning to move into a 2 bedroom to give them more space, but decided to use that money to buy a second car in case his first one breaks down.  His first one is a 2010 BMW paid for with cash.  He plans to buy the second one with cash too.  His reasoning is since he is not planning on financing it is a good financial move.

2.  Family of 4 with 1 spouse as the bread winner and 1 spouse who does not work.  Working spouse makes a decent income (approx $75k) They pay on average of $1500 a month for full daycare because non-working spouse "can't get anything done with the kids at home".  The family has more than $40k in credit card debt and probably $30k in car loans, they are currently on an IRS payment plan because they didn't realize an employer (2 jobs ago) wasn't taking out taxes. 

They are in the process of buying/building a $350k home in a medium cost of living area.  The reason they are buying this new home is because their current 2500 sq ft home doesn't fit all their stuff (they have a storage unit) and they can't afford rent on a house that would fit all their stuff "because the landlords expect us to pay their management fees".  They said the new house will only be about $100-$200 more than their current rent.  Which I guess isn't bad except their current rent eats 42% of their monthly income (not counting utilities).  They also constantly complain about relatives who try to hit them up for money and can't understand why everyone thinks they are "rich". 

[onlykelsey]

Also, his father once said, "Who cleans your windows?!" clearly implying no-one did. I said, "your son, but if you don't think he's doing a good job, there's a rag under the sink!". Yeah, he doesn't comment on our house anymore.

I'm saving this to use on my in-laws.

They've recently been making snarky comments because we hired a cleaning person (who comes for a half-day every 2 weeks for a total monthly cost of about 130$CAD). Reason: I have started working more hours at my job, taking away from the available household maintenance hours, and so, after paying the cleaning person, we are making 563$ MORE per month than we were before. This is a sensible expense, yo. Plus I'd rather work my job than clean my house, and if I'm gonna make more money doing something I prefer doing, then, hey! :) (Also, this gives us the weekend time to a) spend time with our daughter, and b) do the deck-building, barn-building, tree-planting, etc - things that would cost 20-60$/hour to hire out, as opposed to 15$/hour for the cleaner. THIS IS A SENSIBLE TIME/MONEY ALLOCATION, and it leaves us with the most money and the most done by the end of summer.

My in-laws are pulling the 'but cleaning people are so expensive' and 'only RICH people hire people to clean their houses, who do you think you are'. And I'm steaming mad that they pull this stuff when we invite them over for dinner. Like, you're a guest in our home. Appreciate what's offered, say thank you, and cut the fucking judgement, or get the fuck out and go bitch about us ELSEWHERE.

I am... very frustrated with them right now.

I hate that everyone thinks if you hire someone to clean inside your house (traditionally female work), you are lazy and entitled and rich.  if you hire someone to landscape, fix your car, build a deck or wash your car (traditionally male work), you're golden!

I don't hire anyone, but will happily hire someone if it makes sense.

[zephyr911]

I have 2 new ones:

1.  Is a single dad who lives in a 1 bedroom apartment with his kid.  He was planning to move into a 2 bedroom to give them more space, but decided to use that money to buy a second car in case his first one breaks down.  His first one is a 2010 BMW paid for with cash.  He plans to buy the second one with cash too.  His reasoning is since he is not planning on financing it is a good financial move.

2.  Family of 4 with 1 spouse as the bread winner and 1 spouse who does not work.  Working spouse makes a decent income (approx $75k) They pay on average of $1500 a month for full daycare because non-working spouse "can't get anything done with the kids at home".  The family has more than $40k in credit card debt and probably $30k in car loans, they are currently on an IRS payment plan because they didn't realize an employer (2 jobs ago) wasn't taking out taxes. 

They are in the process of buying/building a $350k home in a medium cost of living area.  The reason they are buying this new home is because their current 2500 sq ft home doesn't fit all their stuff (they have a storage unit) and they can't afford rent on a house that would fit all their stuff "because the landlords expect us to pay their management fees".  They said the new house will only be about $100-$200 more than their current rent.  Which I guess isn't bad except their current rent eats 42% of their monthly income (not counting utilities).  They also constantly complain about relatives who try to hit them up for money and can't understand why everyone thinks they are "rich".

It's like flooring the pedal with no hands on the steering wheel and then bitching about how your car keeps getting dinged up. People who think/act this way are the reason MMM exists.