Overheard on Facebook

[JAYSLOL]

Nah, not worth it

[fruitfly]

An old acquaintance on FB (I've known this lady 30 years and she's been a hot mess the whole time) posted a couple weeks ago about driving three hours to get a half sleeve arm tattoo. I think tattoos are dumb (and this one was ugly) but whatever.

Then today she posts that she's going to have to drop out of community college* unless "someone" (not her or her husband I guess) buys her books. The total for all the books was less than $50.

*This is not a slag on community college, I went 3 years and loved it. Just context for how expensive her books and tuition are.

[JAYSLOL]

A friend on Facebook who is from India just shared a post that shows a chart of the exchange rate between the Indian Rupee and US dollar for the last month.  The chart shows the US dollar equalling 68 Rupees at the start of the month and ending at 71 Rupees.  Whoever s post it was put the caption "Great to see our currency hitting new highs! Amazing growth!"

I don't think they get how that works.

[CptCool]

A friend on Facebook who is from India just shared a post that shows a chart of the exchange rate between the Indian Rupee and US dollar for the last month.  The chart shows the US dollar equalling 68 Rupees at the start of the month and ending at 71 Rupees.  Whoever s post it was put the caption "Great to see our currency hitting new highs! Amazing growth!"

I don't think they get how that works.

Haha maybe they were excited that tourism & exports may increase due to the weaker currency

[JAYSLOL]

A friend on Facebook who is from India just shared a post that shows a chart of the exchange rate between the Indian Rupee and US dollar for the last month.  The chart shows the US dollar equalling 68 Rupees at the start of the month and ending at 71 Rupees.  Whoever s post it was put the caption "Great to see our currency hitting new highs! Amazing growth!"

I don't think they get how that works.

Haha maybe they were excited that tourism & exports may increase due to the weaker currency

Could be, or maybe they are an exporter, but the way it was worded it I kind of doubt it

[Primm]

Thread on a Facebook group dedicated to a budgeting software app (4 letters, starts with Y) where someone posted the new vanity plates they'd purchased for their new Tesla.

Both purchases were thanks to "this amazing software, which has enabled me to get enough money to pay for both of these things!" The kicker? The plates spelled out the name of the software... Nothing like providing free advertising for a company. I thought brand logo t-shirts were bad!

[woopwoop]

I provided free advertising for YNAB when they sent me a free T-shirt, does that count? ;) I think half of my work shirts are from promotional advertising!

[dragoncar]

I know a lot of people here love YNAB but really paying a monthly fee for something you can do for free is not very mustachian

[Will]

I know a lot of people here love YNAB but really paying a monthly fee for something you can do for free is not very mustachian

I don't pay anything to use my version of YNAB.

[dragoncar]

I know a lot of people here love YNAB but really paying a monthly fee for something you can do for free is not very mustachian

I don't pay anything to use my version of YNAB.

Huh, maybe you can link to the free version since I only see paid options.  Fully admit I might be missing it comepletly

[Will]

I know a lot of people here love YNAB but really paying a monthly fee for something you can do for free is not very mustachian

I don't pay anything to use my version of YNAB.

Huh, maybe you can link to the free version since I only see paid options.  Fully admit I might be missing it comepletly

The version I am using is YNAB4, which was the last one before they switched over to the web-based monthly fee version.  Still fully functional and paid-for, so no reason to switch.  Hopefully it is a long while before it craps out.  I despise paying monthly fees for anything and probably wouldn't for YNAB.

[carolinap]

Actually "Overheard at Youtube comment section"

In Brazil there are some fixed-income investments with very good return, and a famous finances-related youtuber has a lot of videos talking about one of this options. But for this fixed-income investment be a good option, she says that you have to call your bank and negotiate for them to drop the "bank transaction fee", or go to a online bank with no fees (I did the last one).

But 1 out of 10 comments on her videos were about how this investment was not good because their bank currently charged R$10 for the bank transaction fee. So they couldn't bother to do one call or open a new bank account online for a basically zero-risk fixed-income investment that is better than the basic savings account people usually have.

Also, this youtuber showed a simulation comparing the fixed-income investment with the saving account, and R$ 100 invested in 6 months gave a R$ 0,80 difference in return, and this same people who didn't do anything about the R$ 10 fee where like "that isn't worth the trouble to do things differently"

[Kitsune]

Quebec-based social media has been exploding, yay elections *rolls eyes*. Our outgoing premier put his foot in it when he said that it was possible to feed a family of 3 (parent + 2 teenagers) for 75$/month (50-odd USD, for Americans!).

Sigh.

The particular straw that's breaking my patience is the 6 people sharing a quote from some charity who has 'expert dieticians' claiming that it is impossible to fulfill all nutritional needs of a family for under 233$/month.

To be clear: 50$/3 adult appetites (... because teenagers EAT, yo) is hard. Impossible if you want things like vitamins and vegetables, or ANY milk (6$/gallon, legal minimum). BUT the people ranting about 200$+ a week are ... perhaps delusional? In that it's possible to eat VERY well for significantly less (witness: my grocery budget).

And then some people make very sensible points (say: salaries aren't rising much, food prices are rising, people don't know how to cook... why are we removing Home Ec from schools, when the students aren't learning the skills 'cause the parents don't have them either) and are being jumped on by everyone else, because somehow 'give people the tools they need to learn to do better' is horrifying to all.

Basically: it's Lord of the Flies, with no clear conclusion, and I need a drink before 1pm on a Monday.

[Threshkin]

...snip...

To be clear: 50$/3 adult appetites (... because teenagers EAT, yo) is hard. Impossible if you want things like vitamins and vegetables, or ANY milk (6$/gallon, legal minimum). BUT the people ranting about 200$+ a week are ... perhaps delusional? In that it's possible to eat VERY well for significantly less (witness: my grocery budget).

...snip...

Wow! $6 CAD for a gallon minimum for milk is insane.  Here in the US milk starts at about $2.50 USD a gallon.  No wonder dairy products are such a major sticking point in the US/Canada free trade negotiations.

US producers would see a financial windfall exporting to Canada and/or Canadian producers would be crushed by cheap milk prices.

The joys of government controlled pricing.  Sugar is a good example of the same problem in the US.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

...snip...

To be clear: 50$/3 adult appetites (... because teenagers EAT, yo) is hard. Impossible if you want things like vitamins and vegetables, or ANY milk (6$/gallon, legal minimum). BUT the people ranting about 200$+ a week are ... perhaps delusional? In that it's possible to eat VERY well for significantly less (witness: my grocery budget).

...snip...

Wow! $6 CAD for a gallon minimum for milk is insane.  Here in the US milk starts at about $2.50 USD a gallon.  No wonder dairy products are such a major sticking point in the US/Canada free trade negotiations.

US producers would see a financial windfall exporting to Canada and/or Canadian producers would be crushed by cheap milk prices.

The joys of government controlled pricing.  Sugar is a good example of the same problem in the US.

Then of course there are the outright government subsidies to the producers, which allow them to bring the products to market at a rate substantially lower than their actual cost. As long as those subsidies stay in place, the taxpayers of the producer country are subsidizing lower prices in the consumer country. That won't last, yet the farm lobby is so strong that the subsidies won't be the place where the breakdown occurs.

[Kitsune]

...snip...

To be clear: 50$/3 adult appetites (... because teenagers EAT, yo) is hard. Impossible if you want things like vitamins and vegetables, or ANY milk (6$/gallon, legal minimum). BUT the people ranting about 200$+ a week are ... perhaps delusional? In that it's possible to eat VERY well for significantly less (witness: my grocery budget).

...snip...

Wow! $6 CAD for a gallon minimum for milk is insane.  Here in the US milk starts at about $2.50 USD a gallon.  No wonder dairy products are such a major sticking point in the US/Canada free trade negotiations.

US producers would see a financial windfall exporting to Canada and/or Canadian producers would be crushed by cheap milk prices.

The joys of government controlled pricing.  Sugar is a good example of the same problem in the US.

Then of course there are the outright government subsidies to the producers, which allow them to bring the products to market at a rate substantially lower than their actual cost. As long as those subsidies stay in place, the taxpayers of the producer country are subsidizing lower prices in the consumer country. That won't last, yet the farm lobby is so strong that the subsidies won't be the place where the breakdown occurs.

This. That's the cost of producing quality milk. Artificially cheap milk is cheap via subsidies, and the only farmers who can access subsidies are those with big operations - good luck succeeding as a small family farm, basically. In Quebec, most, if not all, dairy farms are smaller family farms (less than 150 cows, mostly), with cows who don't get hormones and spend summers in the fields and receive antibiotics when they're sick but not as a preventative measure. Basically, the equivalent of American organic milk, more or less.

Frankly, I'm fully in favor of a controlled supply that ensures the health of the province's family farms and costs the consumer rather than the taxpayer. But that DOES mean that a gallon of milk is more expensive.

[Goldielocks]

...snip...

To be clear: 50$/3 adult appetites (... because teenagers EAT, yo) is hard. Impossible if you want things like vitamins and vegetables, or ANY milk (6$/gallon, legal minimum). BUT the people ranting about 200$+ a week are ... perhaps delusional? In that it's possible to eat VERY well for significantly less (witness: my grocery budget).

...snip...

Wow! $6 CAD for a gallon minimum for milk is insane.  Here in the US milk starts at about $2.50 USD a gallon.  No wonder dairy products are such a major sticking point in the US/Canada free trade negotiations.

US producers would see a financial windfall exporting to Canada and/or Canadian producers would be crushed by cheap milk prices.

The joys of government controlled pricing.  Sugar is a good example of the same problem in the US.

Then of course there are the outright government subsidies to the producers, which allow them to bring the products to market at a rate substantially lower than their actual cost. As long as those subsidies stay in place, the taxpayers of the producer country are subsidizing lower prices in the consumer country. That won't last, yet the farm lobby is so strong that the subsidies won't be the place where the breakdown occurs.

There are definitely reasons why Canadian dairy farmers:

1.  Have primarily grass fed / silage fed cows, with not nearly as much corn feed. The us has subsidized corn growers extensively, not just the dairy producers, so feed is a lot cheaper in the USA. 
1b.  Because so much grass fed corn, the vast majority of milk is naturally organic -- farmers just don't spray hay fields for pests or weeds like they do cultivated corn.  (Milk is mixed at the dairies, so can't be labelled organic even if the sources mostly are).
2.  Have hormone free milk, by law.   No bovine growth hormone means lower production per cow.
3.  Don't need subsidies unless a local disaster (flood, fire, etc) because they can rely on pricing.
4.  Yet Quebec has hundreds of dairy farms with less than 35 cows.  True "family farms".  Western canada averages close to 160 head per dairy.  USA average is 234 in 2018.

Instead of taxing Canadians, and paying subsidies to the farms, the dairy prices are kept high to directly pay for production of goods, and individuals are only granted licenses for specific volume to reduce oversupply crashing prices (or that is the the thought behind the dairy control boards, which do have some disadvantages).

[Goldielocks]

Frankly, I'm fully in favor of a controlled supply that ensures the health of the province's family farms and costs the consumer rather than the taxpayer. But that DOES mean that a gallon of milk is more expensive.

Even at over $5/gallon here in BC, when you work out the cost per serving of protein or per 300 calories, whole milk is still one of the cheapest nutrition sources so higher prices are actually not so high compared to other foods.

[Will]

...snip...

To be clear: 50$/3 adult appetites (... because teenagers EAT, yo) is hard. Impossible if you want things like vitamins and vegetables, or ANY milk (6$/gallon, legal minimum). BUT the people ranting about 200$+ a week are ... perhaps delusional? In that it's possible to eat VERY well for significantly less (witness: my grocery budget).

...snip...

Wow! $6 CAD for a gallon minimum for milk is insane.  Here in the US milk starts at about $2.50 USD a gallon.  No wonder dairy products are such a major sticking point in the US/Canada free trade negotiations.

US producers would see a financial windfall exporting to Canada and/or Canadian producers would be crushed by cheap milk prices.

The joys of government controlled pricing.  Sugar is a good example of the same problem in the US.

Luckily we don't need to consume milk or sugar.

[SwordGuy]

This popped up on my FB feed today:

"I'm trying to persuade the teen to get his learners' permit so I can justify looking at new-to-me cars. He's not buying it.
He can walk to school and ride his bike to the bus to go downtown or the movies or whatever, why does he need a car?"

[Sibley]

This popped up on my FB feed today:

"I'm trying to persuade the teen to get his learners' permit so I can justify looking at new-to-me cars. He's not buying it.
He can walk to school and ride his bike to the bus to go downtown or the movies or whatever, why does he need a car?"

Realistically, knowing how to drive is a valuable skill, even if you don't actually drive much. Said teen is being short sighted there.

[I'm a red panda]

This popped up on my FB feed today:

"I'm trying to persuade the teen to get his learners' permit so I can justify looking at new-to-me cars. He's not buying it.
He can walk to school and ride his bike to the bus to go downtown or the movies or whatever, why does he need a car?"

Realistically, knowing how to drive is a valuable skill, even if you don't actually drive much. Said teen is being short sighted there.

I didn't get a learner's permit at first available time. I knew I wasn't ready to drive a car yet. It's a huge responsibility.
I think for a 14 year old or 15 year old to recognize that is a pretty valuable thing.

It also isn't cheap to get one.

[Mississippi Mudstache]

This popped up on my FB feed today:

"I'm trying to persuade the teen to get his learners' permit so I can justify looking at new-to-me cars. He's not buying it.
He can walk to school and ride his bike to the bus to go downtown or the movies or whatever, why does he need a car?"

Realistically, knowing how to drive is a valuable skill, even if you don't actually drive much. Said teen is being short sighted there.

I didn't get a learner's permit at first available time. I knew I wasn't ready to drive a car yet. It's a huge responsibility.
I think for a 14 year old or 15 year old to recognize that is a pretty valuable thing.

It also isn't cheap to get one.

I waited maybe a month to get mine. It was definitely cheap. Not even $100, from my memory.

[ixtap]

This popped up on my FB feed today:

"I'm trying to persuade the teen to get his learners' permit so I can justify looking at new-to-me cars. He's not buying it.
He can walk to school and ride his bike to the bus to go downtown or the movies or whatever, why does he need a car?"

Realistically, knowing how to drive is a valuable skill, even if you don't actually drive much. Said teen is being short sighted there.

I didn't get a learner's permit at first available time. I knew I wasn't ready to drive a car yet. It's a huge responsibility.
I think for a 14 year old or 15 year old to recognize that is a pretty valuable thing.

It also isn't cheap to get one.

I waited maybe a month to get mine. It was definitely cheap. Not even $100, from my memory.

I waited a year because that was when I could get into the free driver's education that the insurance wanted. Flight school and studying abroad might have had something to do with those scheduling problems.

[I'm a red panda]

This popped up on my FB feed today:

"I'm trying to persuade the teen to get his learners' permit so I can justify looking at new-to-me cars. He's not buying it.
He can walk to school and ride his bike to the bus to go downtown or the movies or whatever, why does he need a car?"

Realistically, knowing how to drive is a valuable skill, even if you don't actually drive much. Said teen is being short sighted there.

I didn't get a learner's permit at first available time. I knew I wasn't ready to drive a car yet. It's a huge responsibility.
I think for a 14 year old or 15 year old to recognize that is a pretty valuable thing.

It also isn't cheap to get one.

I waited maybe a month to get mine. It was definitely cheap. Not even $100, from my memory.

OK- so the actual cost of the permit here is like $8.
But Driver's Ed can run $500-1,000 and teens can't get a license without taking drivers ed. (Adults can just go take the driving test.) Schools no longer offer it, and even 20 years ago it was not typical (in my area) for teens to take it through the school. 

I'm glad I waited until I was 17 to drive instead of 16. I still don't think it is safe for 14 year olds to be driving, as my current state allows. Their brains do not process the magnitude of the responsibility that is a car.

[MgoSam]

I can't imagine how much it costs to insure a teenage driver.

[ketchup]

I can't imagine how much it costs to insure a teenage driver.

I know a very wealthy out of touch person that was surprised when all the insurance quotes for their 16 year old to drive their own brand new BMW were something insane like $1800/mo.  I mean come on.  I don't know exactly what my parents were paying, but I know it was still fairly expensive to add me as a 17 year old driver as secondary on liabilty-only insurance on my dad's then-13-year-old Buick LeSabre.

[SwordGuy]

Um...  The face punch part was wanting an excuse to buy a newer car for themselves...

Just in case you missed it.  :)

[Goldielocks]

This popped up on my FB feed today:

"I'm trying to persuade the teen to get his learners' permit so I can justify looking at new-to-me cars. He's not buying it.
He can walk to school and ride his bike to the bus to go downtown or the movies or whatever, why does he need a car?"

Realistically, knowing how to drive is a valuable skill, even if you don't actually drive much. Said teen is being short sighted there.

I didn't get a learner's permit at first available time. I knew I wasn't ready to drive a car yet. It's a huge responsibility.
I think for a 14 year old or 15 year old to recognize that is a pretty valuable thing.

It also isn't cheap to get one.

I waited maybe a month to get mine. It was definitely cheap. Not even $100, from my memory.

OK- so the actual cost of the permit here is like $8.
But Driver's Ed can run $500-1,000 and teens can't get a license without taking drivers ed. (Adults can just go take the driving test.) Schools no longer offer it, and even 20 years ago it was not typical (in my area) for teens to take it through the school. 

I'm glad I waited until I was 17 to drive instead of 16. I still don't think it is safe for 14 year olds to be driving, as my current state allows. Their brains do not process the magnitude of the responsibility that is a car.

What state requires drivers ed in order to get your DL before age 20 / 21?  That sounds crazy to me.  We have graduated licensing here, but you still are not required to take mandatory (expensive) private lessons.

ETA:  According to the internet *  https://www.verywellfamily.com/driving-age-by-state-2611172
The states with the oldest age requiredfor a restricted licence is 16.5 years.  Restricted licenses let you drive alone, often with a couple of passengers, but restrict night time or have harsher penalties for infractions.

*Because the internet is often wrong....

[Just Joe]

Um...  The face punch part was wanting an excuse to buy a newer car for themselves...

Just in case you missed it.  :)

Maybe the kid knows their parent(s) are lousy with money and is trying to delay their car shopping. Our oldest witnessed a friend lecturing their parent about lousy spending one time. That teen friend is more careful than their parent about money to our surprise. And yeah, we knew that parent has had self-inflicted money woes for twenty years.

[I'm a red panda]

Goldielocks, both Texas and Iowa require an "approved drivers education program". In theory, a less expensive publically available option exists (my husband paid $200 for an in school class). In actuality, it is rarely available. (It was only during 2nd period, so not if you were in any athletic program that had an mandatory class. And only in spring semester.)

[SwordGuy]

Um...  The face punch part was wanting an excuse to buy a newer car for themselves...

Just in case you missed it.  :)

Maybe the kid knows their parent(s) are lousy with money and is trying to delay their car shopping. Our oldest witnessed a friend lecturing their parent about lousy spending one time. That teen friend is more careful than their parent about money to our surprise. And yeah, we knew that parent has had self-inflicted money woes for twenty years.

In which case the mom wanting an excuse for a newer car would be even more face-punch worthy...

If I had posted this on anti-anti-mustachian behavior, then the focus would rightly be on the teen...

[I'm a red panda]

Sword Guy, I agree with you on the favepunch. I was replying to the poster who thought the teen was mistaken to not drive immediately

[Hirondelle]

This popped up on my FB feed today:

"I'm trying to persuade the teen to get his learners' permit so I can justify looking at new-to-me cars. He's not buying it.
He can walk to school and ride his bike to the bus to go downtown or the movies or whatever, why does he need a car?"

Realistically, knowing how to drive is a valuable skill, even if you don't actually drive much. Said teen is being short sighted there.

If it's as cheap as some of the other posters mentinoed here it certainly won't hurt to get one and learn how to drive. However, paying for a learners permit/licence that you don't use is a total waste. My parents insisted on me getting my licence "as you'll need it in the future and it's better to learn it now cause you'll get scared once you get older". In my country a licence is expensive depending on the hours of education you get (it's common to pay $1500-2500) so they literally spent $2000 on a stubborn kid not wanting to drive and not driving anymore once the licence part was done. But it's true, I do have a licence and it's a nice small card I can use to get into bars instead of dragging around my passport :)

[Zikoris]

People used to try to convince me and my partner that we should get drivers licenses - they've stopped now that we're in our 30s. The reasons they would come up with were always pretty funny - it usually centered around "but what if there's an emergency?", but nobody has ever been able to lay out a plausible emergency scenario that could only be solved by one of us being licensed to operate a vehicle.

Our reasoning is pretty similar to the teen's - we choose to live in walkable areas and have absolutely no need for a car. We also both get horribly carsick and hate being in cars, the drivers here are all insane and texting, and we have no desire to add a money pit to our lifestyle. I'm 32 as of today, and I can honestly say there has not even once been an instance yet where I've thought "Man, I wish I had a drivers license".

[mm1970]

People used to convince me and my partner that we should get drivers licenses - they've stopped now that we're in our 30s. The reasons they would come up with were always pretty funny - it usually centered around "but what if there's an emergency?", but nobody has ever been able to lay out a plausible emergency scenario that could only be solved by one of us being licensed to operate a vehicle.

Our reasoning is pretty similar to the teen's - we choose to live in walkable areas and have absolutely no need for a car. We also both get horribly carsick and hate being in cars, the drivers here are all insane and texting, and we have no desire to add a money pit to our lifestyle. I'm 32 as of today, and I can honestly say there has not even once been an instance yet where I've thought "Man, I wish I had a drivers license".

I have a neighbor in her 60s who grew up in NYC and never got a license.  At some point, I think in her 50s, she tried to take lessons.  She freaks out.

For a long long time, she just walked everywhere (side bonus: "I can eat whatever I want!")  We aren't in a particularly walkable neighborhood - steep hills, some sections with no sidewalk. But she has an electric bicycle.

The only issues come up when her spouse is traveling for business, like this week.  However, there are 4 families in the hood with 9 children among us at the same two schools.  Needless to say, it's not a problem to get a carpool to the JH or elementary.  (Not that our big kids can't walk the 1.5 miles to/from JH - and they do sometimes - but I have to admit their backpacks are really heavy.)

[Threshkin]

I didn't get my DL until I was 18.  The rule was that I needed to be able to pay for the license, insurance and buy my own car.  Not easy to earn that kind of money living 8 miles from the nearest store or gas station.  Taught me how to make do, find alternative income sources and be frugal though!  I also walked and biked a LOT.

[Imma]

My boyfriend and I also don't have licenses. We didn't have a couple thousand lying around at the age of 18 (which is the minimum age to drive where we live) and didn't have money until our mid-twenties. Now, we technically could afford it, but we've been adults for 10-15 years and we've never missed having a car. Our lives are designed around not driving. We live in a country/city where living without a car is pretty easy. We have bulky furniture / appliances delivered and pay for a taxi three times a year.

My mum still nags about the license though. She feels non-driving women are not independent (what about non-driving men?) but not driving has never limited me in any way.

[johndoe]

The last few posts have made me wonder about my average monthly cost of car ownership.  (I'm sure this topic could/does have it's own thread...but just to add to this discussion...)  This is for two cars (only driven by me).

Gas, maintenance, insurance, and registration accounted for about $240 / month. (based on two years' worth of P.C. data ... of course a different two year period could have larger/smaller repairs)
Car purchase price (divided by months owned) resulted in about $200 / month. ($170 of this came from the "fun" car I got more recently)

So my total cost has been about $440 / month.  If I didn't have a "fun" car it'd be more like $270 / month.  In my opinion, for the amount of freedom a car gives me, I'm satisfied with paying this amount.  Obviously every person has a different situation (public transit, family members, scheduled hobbies) but that's just my outlook.  This is in the same ballpark as what I pay towards fed+state taxes, or property taxes.  I think different arguments could be made for which of those I get most value out of =)

[hdatontodo]

How do people vacation and rent a car to sightsee w/o a license? Uber to Moab from SLC?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[onlykelsey]

How do people vacation and rent a car to sightsee w/o a license? Uber to Moab from SLC?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

YOU MUST USE A BICYCLE!!!!!!!

Joking. That may be a sort of uniquely American question, though... I drive (manual and stick) but have literally once in my life rented a car for a vacation (last day of vacation in Croatia).

[Zikoris]

How do people vacation and rent a car to sightsee w/o a license? Uber to Moab from SLC?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

I vacation a lot and have never once had the desire to rent a car. The drivers in my own city stress me out, and this is in a place where I know the rules and layout pretty well - the idea of driving at high speeds on the opposite side of the road with completely different signage and nothing in English gives me cold sweats. No thank you!

But the real question here seems to be slightly different - you can't seriously be asking how people rent and drive cars without licenses, because that's obviously illegal and dangerous. But if you're actually asking how people get from point A to point B without a car, the answer is generally doing a bus or carpool.

[Imma]

I just returned from a short vacation yesterday. We walked from home to the train station (although there is a bus every 15 minutes). We took the train to the border (1,5 hour)  then a bus across the border to our destination (1 hour). There is also a direct and faster train connection, but taking the bus is much cheaper.

At our destination we had rented a self-catering apartment right across the street from the central station and went grocery shopping on foot, which is what we do at home as well. We went to this place to see some historic sites and all of them were walking distance from our apartment, except one which was 20 minutes by bus. We were only there for a few days so didn't have enough time to hike, but we could have taken a bus to the start of several trail.

I have travelled all around Europe this way and I have certainly not limited myself to big cities. You can reach many destinations by regular public traffic and very occasionally I have used bus services offered by hostels. One time I actually travelled by steam boat! What I like about this way of travelling is that you really get a chance to get in touch with the locals.

[faithless]

To continue the off topic discussion, as obviously the parent is anti-mustachian:

My 17th birthday present from my parents was driving lessons and my test, they decided that for me (17's the age limit where I am).

I had no intention of driving until after I'd finished uni due to cost and not needing a car to get to my uni/parents home/part time job, but I was very glad they did that for me, as:

- when I bought a car at 21 my insurance was cheaper (one insurance question was how long you've held your licence - 3 years was a cheaper answer than <1 year)

- I had a lot more time on my hands as a 17 y/o to learn

- It took me quite a lot of lessons to learn, and failed my first test, probably due to a lack of confidence, so it took a long time and was quite expensive

- Compared to a Facebook friend who tried to learn a few years after graduating, whilst trying to fit it around work etc, it took her ages, esp finding the extra money for more lessons after she failed her first test

- it meant I could take the first good job that I was offered after graduating, (which I basically couldn't have got to by public transport due to the layout of the area), without having to worry about learning to drive in the 4 weeks before I started. Good jobs were scarce where we lived, so that job enabled me to live with my parents for 2 years, pay minimal rent and save a house deposit quickly.

[faithless]

...

I have travelled all around Europe this way and I have certainly not limited myself to big cities. You can reach many destinations by regular public traffic and very occasionally I have used bus services offered by hostels. One time I actually travelled by steam boat! What I like about this way of travelling is that you really get a chance to get in touch with the locals.

That sounds really cool! I prefer walking or public transport to get around on holiday, and love that I can stay very close to the action cheaply in Airbnb apartments.

E.g. a stunning apartment right in the Marais in Paris meant we only had to get the train from the airport and out to an awesome flea market on the edge of the city, everywhere else we could walk to, and we stayed with n a tiny flat above a bookstore when we were in Instanbul, right opposite a bottom entrance to the Topkapi Palace.

But I was glad we could rent a car in Turkey last year - we booked a cheap all inclusive package type holiday (flights and hotel), but wanted to go see some historic sites, and renting a car allowed us to spend full days at the sites we wanted to see (Ephesus was amazing!), and stop off en route when we saw something interesting.

If you knew what you wanted to do, you could have just booked a taxi/private tour, so it would have been more expensive, but not impossible.

[Peachtea]

How do people vacation and rent a car to sightsee w/o a license? Uber to Moab from SLC?

No Uber available for that route. But you could fly directly to Moab and use taxies or rent a bike from there to the trails. Or take greyhound SLC to Green River + taxi/private shuttle there to Moab.

My point is even in the US it’s easier than one would think to get around traveling car free, especially if going to a city rather than national park. Any city large enough to fly or bus into is probably doable (and cheaper) with Uber/taxi rather than car rental. And you’d be surprised where you can all get on a bus. I travel to smaller midwestern cities for both work and leisure; it’s often cheaper to Uber than rent a car. People are just too used to assuming they need a car.

[joleran]

I drove by myself on public roads at age 12 because that's how you moved between fields on the farm.  At 14, I could drive legally by myself.  Age doesn't matter as much as driver education, which when it meant a switch on my backside was involved, I considered very important as well.

[Prairie Stash]

This popped up on my FB feed today:

"I'm trying to persuade the teen to get his learners' permit so I can justify looking at new-to-me cars. He's not buying it.
He can walk to school and ride his bike to the bus to go downtown or the movies or whatever, why does he need a car?"

Realistically, knowing how to drive is a valuable skill, even if you don't actually drive much. Said teen is being short sighted there.

If it's as cheap as some of the other posters mentinoed here it certainly won't hurt to get one and learn how to drive.

In Canada a Drivers licence (my province) is $20/year to have. Costs are comparable across Canada.

To get the licence I paid for a road test (currently $55) and a written test ($25), back in my day they were much cheaper (its a one time cost). Lessons can be done at home if you have acess to a car, for me that consisted of driving to the grocery store with my parent.

I also have a licence for motorcycles (seperate from my car licence). I paid for a safety course privately, $200 but it was optional, and the tests were $50. I spent more on my helmet and gear for perspective.

Having a licence is cheap and I can drive company vehicles. I can also rent moving trucks, for switching houses. I frequently rent cars as needed, sometimes a road trip is cheaper and quicker then flying; such as going to a wedding 5 hours away by car or an hour by plane (plus taxis/bus to airport, air delays etc.). Within Canada its more time consuming to travel by car but generally cheaper for two people, rental cars are cheap.

Having a licence does not mean you have a car. A drivers licence is cheap ($20/year), a car is expensive ($1000+).

[Imma]

This popped up on my FB feed today:

"I'm trying to persuade the teen to get his learners' permit so I can justify looking at new-to-me cars. He's not buying it.
He can walk to school and ride his bike to the bus to go downtown or the movies or whatever, why does he need a car?"

Realistically, knowing how to drive is a valuable skill, even if you don't actually drive much. Said teen is being short sighted there.

If it's as cheap as some of the other posters mentinoed here it certainly won't hurt to get one and learn how to drive.

In Canada a Drivers licence (my province) is $20/year to have. Costs are comparable across Canada.

To get the licence I paid for a road test (currently $55) and a written test ($25), back in my day they were much cheaper (its a one time cost). Lessons can be done at home if you have acess to a car, for me that consisted of driving to the grocery store with my parent.

Having a licence is cheap and I can drive company vehicles. I can also rent moving trucks, for switching houses. I frequently rent cars as needed, sometimes a road trip is cheaper and quicker then flying; such as going to a wedding 5 hours away by car or an hour by plane (plus taxis/bus to airport, air delays etc.). Within Canada its more time consuming to travel by car but generally cheaper for two people, rental cars are cheap.

I think the major difference in my country is that parents aren't allowed to teach their children to drive. You need to have passed your test to be allowed to drive on public roads. So you need to pay for an instructor to teach you, and the average person needs about 35-40 lessons to pass their test.

I agree that maybe once or twice a year it might have been useful for us to have it, to rent a van to move house or at work to occasionally use a company vehicle to visit a factory location ( I work at my company's HQ) but when I told my boss I didn't have a license he wasn't surprised at all. None of his kids had one either.

One thing to keep in mind though is that once you've got a license, you need to continue to use it. I know quite a few people who got a license when they turned 18, went off to university a few months later and don't drive for years after. That can lead to dangerous situations. We were on a trip with a group of people once and we banned one person in the group from driving because she had no idea how bad a driver she was. Turned out she had driven only a handful of times after getting her license 5 years earlier.

[Hirondelle]

One thing to keep in mind though is that once you've got a license, you need to continue to use it. I know quite a few people who got a license when they turned 18, went off to university a few months later and don't drive for years after. That can lead to dangerous situations. We were on a trip with a group of people once and we banned one person in the group from driving because she had no idea how bad a driver she was. Turned out she had driven only a handful of times after getting her license 5 years earlier.

That person would be totally me :D. Except that I'm very aware of my lack of driving skills. My parents' car is also an automatic so the 10ish times I drove after getting the licence I didn't use the poke either. An ex-boyfriend thought it wouldn't be so bad and forced me 3 years after getting the licence to have a ride in his car as he wanted me to be able to drive it. I warned him, but when I drove 1 street he realized I hadn't been exaggerating :') I better stick to my bike.