Author Topic: Overheard on Facebook  (Read 2479969 times)

sherr

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7100 on: December 21, 2017, 11:15:49 AM »
Glass half empty or half full, we all can agree that not everyone's glasses are the same size. That's what I'm getting at here. Not easy means different things to an engineer making six figures who has the big house and truck and has no idea how to cook vs. the 2 fulltime workers making barely over minimum wage and raising 3 kids.

To me, it's more about meeting people where they're at. If I told you I wanted to pick up running, you wouldn't have me run a marathon the next week. That's what asking someone with no savings to save 18k/yr feels like. I have friends for whom putting aside $100/month is a big deal. Heck, my entire salary didn't go above 18k until I was 25. The idea of saving the equivalent of my entire year's earnings was preposterous.
You still have a glass. Only a pessimist argues their glass is dirty or small. The optimist is thankful to have a glass.

Instead of meeting people where they're at, I suggest meeting people where they will be. If you wanted to pick up running, I'd meet you at 6 AM  (maybe 7 since I hate mornings) and together we would learn to run a mile. I'd teach you how and encourage you and smile from the finish line as you complete your first marathon. As a pessimist I would tell you to give up since you're old, out of shape and its a waste of time since most people never complete marathons. Then I would post on your facebook page reasons why you shouldn't try if I see you post a link about how marathons help your health.

You get to choose how you view the glass. Is your glass dirty or small or is it enough to get you the glass of water you need as you jog by on the way to completing your first marathon?

This is untrue. A realist would point out that their glass is dirty or small. A pessimist would complain that they're probably going to drop and break it tomorrow. You can be both a realist and an optimist at the same time (Yes I have a small glass, but I can still work to fill it!). There is nothing wrong with meeting people where they're at and helping them work up from there, which is actually exactly what you are describing in your running example.

It is also true that often the easiest way to increase your savings rate is to increase your salary (even if that's not very easy at all). Let's be optimistic, but also grounded in reality.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7101 on: December 21, 2017, 10:09:08 PM »
Glass half empty or half full, we all can agree that not everyone's glasses are the same size. That's what I'm getting at here. Not easy means different things to an engineer making six figures who has the big house and truck and has no idea how to cook vs. the 2 fulltime workers making barely over minimum wage and raising 3 kids.

To me, it's more about meeting people where they're at. If I told you I wanted to pick up running, you wouldn't have me run a marathon the next week. That's what asking someone with no savings to save 18k/yr feels like. I have friends for whom putting aside $100/month is a big deal. Heck, my entire salary didn't go above 18k until I was 25. The idea of saving the equivalent of my entire year's earnings was preposterous.
You still have a glass. Only a pessimist argues their glass is dirty or small. The optimist is thankful to have a glass.

Instead of meeting people where they're at, I suggest meeting people where they will be. If you wanted to pick up running, I'd meet you at 6 AM  (maybe 7 since I hate mornings) and together we would learn to run a mile. I'd teach you how and encourage you and smile from the finish line as you complete your first marathon. As a pessimist I would tell you to give up since you're old, out of shape and its a waste of time since most people never complete marathons. Then I would post on your facebook page reasons why you shouldn't try if I see you post a link about how marathons help your health.

You get to choose how you view the glass. Is your glass dirty or small or is it enough to get you the glass of water you need as you jog by on the way to completing your first marathon?

This is untrue. A realist would point out that their glass is dirty or small. A pessimist would complain that they're probably going to drop and break it tomorrow. You can be both a realist and an optimist at the same time (Yes I have a small glass, but I can still work to fill it!). There is nothing wrong with meeting people where they're at and helping them work up from there, which is actually exactly what you are describing in your running example.

It is also true that often the easiest way to increase your savings rate is to increase your salary (even if that's not very easy at all). Let's be optimistic, but also grounded in reality.

IMO

"Yes I have a small glass, but I can still work to fill it!" is optimistic

But

"At that point you really have to ask whether it's even worth trying to chase this particular dream. This sort of investing concept really only works for a small (ie: elite) subset of the population." is pessimistic

The 'particular dream' is not to save x dollars per year. It's to save the first $100k. If it's extra hard because of circumstances, start small and work your way up.

But to write the dream off as 'elites only' why bother trying is pessimistic

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7102 on: December 22, 2017, 08:23:10 AM »
Glass half empty or half full, we all can agree that not everyone's glasses are the same size. That's what I'm getting at here. Not easy means different things to an engineer making six figures who has the big house and truck and has no idea how to cook vs. the 2 fulltime workers making barely over minimum wage and raising 3 kids.

To me, it's more about meeting people where they're at. If I told you I wanted to pick up running, you wouldn't have me run a marathon the next week. That's what asking someone with no savings to save 18k/yr feels like. I have friends for whom putting aside $100/month is a big deal. Heck, my entire salary didn't go above 18k until I was 25. The idea of saving the equivalent of my entire year's earnings was preposterous.
You still have a glass. Only a pessimist argues their glass is dirty or small. The optimist is thankful to have a glass.

Instead of meeting people where they're at, I suggest meeting people where they will be. If you wanted to pick up running, I'd meet you at 6 AM  (maybe 7 since I hate mornings) and together we would learn to run a mile. I'd teach you how and encourage you and smile from the finish line as you complete your first marathon. As a pessimist I would tell you to give up since you're old, out of shape and its a waste of time since most people never complete marathons. Then I would post on your facebook page reasons why you shouldn't try if I see you post a link about how marathons help your health.

You get to choose how you view the glass. Is your glass dirty or small or is it enough to get you the glass of water you need as you jog by on the way to completing your first marathon?

This is untrue. A realist would point out that their glass is dirty or small. A pessimist would complain that they're probably going to drop and break it tomorrow. You can be both a realist and an optimist at the same time (Yes I have a small glass, but I can still work to fill it!). There is nothing wrong with meeting people where they're at and helping them work up from there, which is actually exactly what you are describing in your running example.

It is also true that often the easiest way to increase your savings rate is to increase your salary (even if that's not very easy at all). Let's be optimistic, but also grounded in reality.
At the ripe old age of 25, most people haven't figured out the size of their metaphorical glass. A realist will point out that a 25 year old person has a lifetime of possibilities before them. New jobs, divorce, education, kids, marriage, etc. All sorts of things can change in the decade following your 25th birthday that will both positively and negatively change your entire world.

Where both are examples fall apart, the glass is not a constant, as illustrated in the running metaphor (couch potato to marathon finisher is an example of people changing). People change, circumstances change. You aren't handed a small glass at the age of 20 that limits your earning potential to the size of the glass. You can change jobs, change careers or...save $100k by grit and tenacity (both words imply its a hard thing to do).

The entire point of the article was to change your circumstances. I think a lot of people missed that part, on the way to a million the first $100k is probably 95% (99%?) of the work.

Pretending that a persons current reality is a constant, that's pessimism. My reality at age 25 was massive debt and a low paying job, my NW was very negative. At 35 my reality was kids, house, good job and savings. Which reality should we refer to? At 25 i had a small dirty glass, at 35 I'm sipping out of a fine Stein overflowing with bavarian beer.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7103 on: December 22, 2017, 07:03:13 PM »
I always read the 'Overheard on/at' threads with such joy and shock and am thankful, though curious that I never get much negative feedback/options/excuses about financially responsible ways. Well today I actually posted a finance related article and holy fuck! I had no idea some of my good friends were so negative!

The worst part was this: 'there's a whole lot of people who are already living in "clipping every coupon" mode. They don't have the fiscal wiggle room to even get to that first $100k. Plus they may have to sacrifice some quality of life to get to that point (ex: live in a high-crime or poor-school neighbourhood). At that point you really have to ask whether it's even worth trying to chase this particular dream. This sort of investing concept really only works for a small (ie: elite) subset of the population.'

Yikes.

FTR, the article I posted was no big extreme deal
http://www.fourpillarfreedom.com/charlie-munger-the-first-100000-is-a-btch/

I'm so glad that you were quoting someone outside the forum, not making that point yourself!

I'm constantly surprised how vehemently people will fight to discredit any idea that's put forth as something that would improve someone's circumstances.   They absolutely, negatively have have **HAVE** to discredit any idea, immediately, without thought or investigation.   No concept of "Hmm.  That worked for someone else.  How could I modify it to work for my circumstances?" is ever considered.  It just has to be turned down and, more importantly, discredited in anyone else's eyes.

Drives me up the friggin' wall.

I don't care if someone chooses to make piss-poor financial decisions and pay the consequences.

But it's just plain evil to teach people they can't possibly succeed when it's been proven that people can.

When people start teaching others to fail, I point out they are wrong.   For repeat offenders I've simply quit trying to be super polite about it.  I don't care if they don't like it or it annoys them.  If one person out there gets the right info to turn their life around, it will have been time well spent.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7104 on: December 22, 2017, 07:08:55 PM »
Investing $200 a month in the market at historical average rates of return, from age 23 to 66, will net well over $550,000 in today's dollars.

So it's hardly impossible for EVERYONE to end up with a nest egg of $100,000 at retirement.


alewpanda

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7105 on: December 23, 2017, 11:55:24 AM »
I have a cousin who is less than a year younger than me, putting her at about 28 years old.  Her new husband is a few years younger and is just finishing his degree in chemistry this semester.  Thankfully, he avoided debt through his degree program, so I'm thinking that once he starts his career, they will be doing moderately ok for themselves.  My cousin's dream has always been to be a mom and provide daycare in the home -- over the years since high school most of her work history is in daycare and entry level jobs at small dollar stores, etc.

Generally speaking, they aren't crazy extravagant...but I know they get some help once in a while from family.  Mostly in the form of large "gifts"....mattress, small car down payment, etc.  They also own a cat (not a terribly expensive pet).  But it blows my mind how often I see "foodie" posts on facebook...and not homemade food.

I have counted up to 5 times in the course of a week that my cousin and husband will post a picture and check in to a local restaurant.  Easily they spend 20+ dollars each time at these places.  According to facebook, my cousin and cousin-in-law that currently work at dollar tree and babysit in the home eat out to the tune of 60.00 -- 120.00 WEEKLY.

Their dining out habit probably costs as much as their (income-controlled) rent.......   *face palm*

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7106 on: December 28, 2017, 05:42:46 PM »
Glass half empty or half full, we all can agree that not everyone's glasses are the same size.
Correct. Many of us here are privileged and don't realise it. This is usually responded to with indignant howls of "but I work so hard!" But "privilege" or lack of it doesn't mean you don't work hard or do, it simply affects how much you'll get out of your hard work.


Anyone involved with sports knows that there exist "natural athletes" - the person with a big vertical jump and who can simply watch a movement and reproduce it well. This is why in my gym we'll get women who after 3 months of training squat 60kg, and others who squat 100kg. All of them show up every time and lift, but some simply get more out of their 39 sessions in 13 weeks than do others. They have talent.


Likewise people with a degree of privilege. The other day in the paper there was a young guy, son of a very wealthy family, talking about the apps he'd made and sold, and he proudly said "my parents never gave me a cent." He'd gone to Geelong Grammar, a school which costs about $37k a year - so his parents had spent the equivalent of a full-time minimum wage before tax on his education every year. What a cleaner or waitress working full-time (few do) earns in 13 years had gone on his education (there was no mention of if he'd gone to university). Not on;y this excellent education, but of course places like that have a lot of other privileged kids who can introduce you to people to invest in your work; this is why so many of the leading CEOs, high court judges and so on come from just a few schools.


"My parents never gave me a cent." They didn't have to. The kid worked hard - but because he had that start with an excellent education and knowing the right people to help him make things happen, he got a lot more out of his work than would a son of a single-mum part-time casual cleaner, the son who'd gone to a state school in Woop Woop.


Yes, if you're earning $40k you can save half of it. But then you're missing out on a lot of things, and not the things you miss out on when you're getting $100k and save half of it, more vital things. And you're relying on nothing going wrong for 20 years or so - no hospital visits, no sudden evictions, no deadbeat brothers-in-law who need a loan but will never pay it back, no periods of unemployment, and so on.


A lower income does allow saving, but a lower income is more fragile. And lower-income jobs tend to be less secure. People with lower incomes have more frequent and longer periods of unemployment than do those with higher incomes. This was a point missed by Geelong Grammar App Boy - sure, his parents didn't invest in his apps. But if it all failed miserably he wouldn't end up on the street. He had the freedom to take the risk of a big fuckup, a freedom that his Woop Woop State School son of a part-time casual cleaner peer wouldn't have.


I am acutely aware of these issues because I grew up poor, but am now doing well. I was able to do a career change and start a small business because of my wife doing a full-time professional job; she gave me the security, the fallback in case the risk turned out bad. I could have done it without her, but it would have been much harder, and the risks of failure would have been much greater. As someone who has literally slept on the street at one point, I am acutely aware of what "risk of failure" means for some people. The change and the business worked and now we're doing well.


This is why MMM speaks of giving to charity. Those of us who have more have a responsibility to give so that others may have opportunities like ours. Part of this is accomplished by taxation, which pays for public schools and so on, but whatever your politics, most can agree this is less efficient and effective than it might be, and so we should give to charities.


Originally the definition of "middle class" was "well-off to hire servants." In the Third World it's considered a social obligation (as well as a sign of status), so this is why you'll get a single professional in Beijing, Manila or Nairobi with a tiny apartment - but they have a maid. You have a lot, now you should pass it on. In the West few people have full-time servants, but some of us have businesses and we can hire people for them, and all of us have all sorts of jobs we can hire people for occasionally. In Judaism as in many faiths, charity is a duty, and the best charity is giving someone a job.


Quote from: SwordGuy
it's just plain evil to teach people they can't possibly succeed when it's been proven that people can.
Saying that some people will find success more difficult and requiring more luck than others is not saying that success is impossible for some people.


Americans are terrible at nuance and degree.
"I'm against the death penalty."
"What?! So we should just let them all go?!"
"I'm in favour of the death penalty."
"What?! So we should execute people for jaywalking?!"


Nuance. Subtlety. Degrees of this and that. Set aside this lazy black & white thinking and contend with what people have actually said: nothing is impossible, but some things are harder than others. "Well, just work harder." Yes, that works. But some people still need to be lucky.
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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7107 on: December 28, 2017, 05:50:17 PM »
@Kyle Schuant , that is an amazing post. Thank you.


Primm

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7108 on: December 28, 2017, 08:41:43 PM »
@Kyle Schuant , your post reminds me of this clip.

https://youtu.be/FBQx8FmOT_0

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7109 on: December 28, 2017, 09:51:32 PM »
@Kyle Schuant , that is an amazing post. Thank you.

Seconded!
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nancyjnelson

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7111 on: December 29, 2017, 07:32:51 AM »
@Kyle Schuant - thanks.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7112 on: December 29, 2017, 01:18:43 PM »
One week before Christmas:

Sisters Post: Look what my Mommy got for Christmas!!! (Insert picture of brand new 2018 Honda CR-V)

My Reply: Awesome! My car will need replacing in 5-7 years so I will buy this when I'm ready. (Current Car: 1997 Honda CR-V that my Mom purchased brand new in 1996. Bought that from her when she was ready for another new vehicle in 2001. I still drive it. Sitting at 246,000 miles and running strong. Might have to replace a timing belt again, but I've already done that myself twice. Why not a 3rd time.)

Mom's Reply: I will put it in my will that it will go to you! (Mom is 62 and in great health. I'm taking this as a positive that she is going to live a long and healthy life and change her ways and not purchase any new vehicles. Doubt it though...this is her 3rd brand new car since I bought her CR-V in 2001.)

Talked with my Mom yesterday asking why she got a new car. Says my Dad pressured her because her last car's warranty was up. I could tell she knew they was making dumb car decisions, but she said she didn't care enough not to do it. I guess it's good she is a least aware of it.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7113 on: December 30, 2017, 01:17:12 PM »
@Kyle Schuant , your post reminds me of this clip.

https://youtu.be/FBQx8FmOT_0
That is a good clip. It is, however, inherently and profoundly American. To me what is remarkable about is not that it shows what privilege is, but that it shows American culture. He presents life as a competition, and in a competition there are winners, but there must be losers. In a competition, however good the competitors are, someone will lose. Is that the best way to travel through life? This thread is "overhead on Facebook" - but who do we overhear? Relatives and friends. Do we want our family and friends to lose?

We have but one life. If we had one short journey to take with our family and friends, would we race them, or would we walk arm-in-arm with them? Do we want any of our family and friends to loser? Do we really want to leave them behind? Or do we want to walk with them?


And that's why I talked about charity. Ideally, a fair system of taxation would deal with it all for us. Charity is good, but with charity some people miss out - the deadbeat brother-in-law who gambles and drinks too much, his wife your sister and their kids your nephews and nieces get help, but the wife and kids in the next block without the well-off brother to bail them out, they miss out. A well-designed taxation and welfare (help them) or business-encouragement (help them help themselves) system sorts this out. But whatever our politics, most of us will agree it's not well-designed. So we make our own imperfect efforts with charity, instead.


Here's a clip from a different culture.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE0eMBmyfnk


There's a reason that you'll see Westerners go to poor villages somewhere, and the villagers happily feed them and refuse any payment or help. It feels good to give. One of the degrading things about poverty is that it makes you too poor to give. If we're well off enough to give - and if you're on here with an internet connection, you are well off - then we're privileged, and should exercise that privilege by giving.


I like https://www.effectivealtruism.org, but I don't really care what people choose to give themselves to.
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SwordGuy

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7114 on: December 30, 2017, 04:26:29 PM »
...
You've made some very well-expressed, thoughtful posts in this thread.  Bravo.   I happen to agree with damn near everything you say.


Quote from: SwordGuy
it's just plain evil to teach people they can't possibly succeed when it's been proven that people can.
Saying that some people will find success more difficult and requiring more luck than others is not saying that success is impossible for some people.


Americans are terrible at nuance and degree.
"I'm against the death penalty."
"What?! So we should just let them all go?!"
"I'm in favour of the death penalty."
"What?! So we should execute people for jaywalking?!"


Nuance. Subtlety. Degrees of this and that. Set aside this lazy black & white thinking and contend with what people have actually said: nothing is impossible, but some things are harder than others. "Well, just work harder." Yes, that works. But some people still need to be lucky.

I also happen to agree with what you say here.  But I also happen to agree with what I said at the same time.   So I'll attempt to clarify.

If someone wants to say that some people have privilege - including me - I'll completely agree with them.  It would be ludicrously ignorant to believe otherwise. 

If someone wants to claim that people born into poverty have a much tougher time succeeding than someone born into the middle class, I'll also completely agree with them.  Not only that, I'll completely agree with them that we should put more taxes into providing better starting situations for the poor.    Significantly more resources.

If someone wants to claim that people who start off poor get the shit end of the stick, I'll sing Hallelujah!   They sure as hell do and we should take actions to fix that.

No ifs.  No buts.    We should take serious, determined action to fix that.

I'm not talking about folks who claim that because I happen to agree with them.

I'm talking about people who take that very reasonable position and then deduce that people can't get ahead, deny that people can get ahead, and actively and repeatedly tell other people they can't get ahead.  Or perhaps you can get ahead, but you have to be evil to do it.  Maybe you're lucky enough not to run across people like this.   They may be deluded, but spreading those very specific lies does evil, so I fight it.

When you provide real life examples where people have, in fact, gotten ahead, they deny or discount it.   They will become rude, dismissive, and insulting to anyone who provides proof that their belief is wrong.   

For anyone who wants an insight into the madness, here's a link to several examples over a few different replies:  https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/sword-guy's-journal/msg1799561/#msg1799561

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7115 on: December 30, 2017, 04:35:37 PM »
@Kyle Schuant

I absolutely agree that some people have privileges and charities are a noble way to give.  However, you lose me at "you should give".  Mandating such gifts, IMO, completely defeats the purpose.  Going down that path leads to "how much am I obligated to give to be a good person?", etc.  Maybe I just don't understand because I'm a dumb American.  I could send you my bank account info if you'd like to help someone who doesn't understand nuance and subtlety.  You really should help me.



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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7116 on: December 30, 2017, 05:48:50 PM »
I absolutely agree that some people have privileges and charities are a noble way to give.  However, you lose me at "you should give". 
If you believe that no human being has moral obligations to any other then you have excluded yourself from human society, since society is built on mutual obligations, on promises and duties.
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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7117 on: December 31, 2017, 05:28:58 PM »
@Kyle Schuant

I absolutely agree that some people have privileges and charities are a noble way to give.  However, you lose me at "you should give".  Mandating such gifts, IMO, completely defeats the purpose.  Going down that path leads to "how much am I obligated to give to be a good person?", etc.  Maybe I just don't understand because I'm a dumb American.  I could send you my bank account info if you'd like to help someone who doesn't understand nuance and subtlety.  You really should help me.

I draw a distinction between "you should give" and "you should give to me (or my charity of choice)". Generally when people say the former, they mean the latter and are trying to apply social pressure. I usually punish such solicitations with the Eyebrow Of Death.

My personal opinion, and there are indeed people who disagree with me, is that the possibility of losing donor or volunteer support is the only reliable incentive that ensures money is used responsibly. If you're not allowed to say "no", your "yes" is meaningless. When your "yes" is meaningless the person asking for it is fully aware of the fact he or she is entitled to the results, and is indulging in an obvious social fiction.

To my way of thinking, the consent of the donor and the ability of each donor to withhold the donation are vital. This means that each person needs to be in control of when, how much, and even "if" he or she gives. Some will give late, or sparingly, or not at all. If they aren't free to do this without penalty, then what we would have is not a donation but a tax.

I'm not against taxation per se, and am not trying to lead the discussion in that direction, however it produces different results from voluntary donations that can be withheld at the discretion of the donor. Why? Because tax dollars are routinely used for things that don't directly benefit the individual taxpayer but that improve the quality of life for people overall. Nobody can say, for example, "I want my taxes to be used exclusively for education" and expect that request to be honored. This means that there will always be some expenditures that a given taxpayer regards as a waste. There will always be some individuals who benefit more than they contribute.

Charitable giving is different from taxation. With a charitable donation, be it to an individual or to an organization, the donor has a specific intent and goal as to the general purpose of the contribution. If I were to donate to an animal shelter, I would expect a significant part of my donation to result in animals being fed and cared for, with some reserved for administration and advertising. Should the money be spent on something unrelated, such as political lobbying for issues unrelated to animal welfare or for as an extended "seminar" (aka tropical vacation) for the Executive Director, I would be within my rights to throw a snit fit and withhold future donations even if the expenditures fell within the letter of what the law allows. I could do that even if my personal interests suddenly diverged from the charity's and I decided to fund youth sports instead.

When large numbers of donors make individual decisions about where, when, and how to donate, the aggregate result disproportionately rewards people and charities who are effective in (a) using a gift to make a long-term improvement, and/or (b) exciting an emotional reaction in the donor.

If donors are not free to identify differences between a good cause and a bad cause (or, in the case of individuals, a worthy or unworthy recipient), and if donors are not free to withhold support from what they perceive to be bad causes or unworthy recipients, then there's absolutely no incentive for prospective recipients (charities or otherwise) to manage themselves well, to make effective use of what they are given, or to go out of their way to create or maintain an emotional connection to the giver.

Exactly how much an individual is disposed to give, and the form the giving should take, depends a lot on the culture in which he or she was raised. Social and economic class are factors. Religion is a factor, and so are age and family status. In all my years of charitable activity I have yet to find a one-size-fits-all categorical imperative that works quite as well as encouraging everyone to do his or her own thing.
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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7118 on: December 31, 2017, 07:47:35 PM »
...
I draw a distinction between "you should give" and "you should give to me (or my charity of choice)". Generally when people say the former, they mean the latter and are trying to apply social pressure. I usually punish such solicitations with the Eyebrow Of Death.
...

Agreed. And I would love to see the Eyebrow of Death, just not directed at me.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7119 on: January 01, 2018, 08:25:54 AM »
...
I draw a distinction between "you should give" and "you should give to me (or my charity of choice)". Generally when people say the former, they mean the latter and are trying to apply social pressure. I usually punish such solicitations with the Eyebrow Of Death.
...

Agreed. And I would love to see the Eyebrow of Death, just not directed at me.
I suspect it looks something akin to "The Look" from Home improvement.

Sibley

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7120 on: January 01, 2018, 11:56:15 AM »
...
I draw a distinction between "you should give" and "you should give to me (or my charity of choice)". Generally when people say the former, they mean the latter and are trying to apply social pressure. I usually punish such solicitations with the Eyebrow Of Death.
...

Agreed. And I would love to see the Eyebrow of Death, just not directed at me.
I suspect it looks something akin to "The Look" from Home improvement.

I've been told that I've got quite the Look as well. I'm very pleased with this, since I aspire to be one of those older women who does not give a fuck and will tell you whatever it is that you need to hear (constructively, I don't want to cause problems for people who don't deserve it).

Just Joe

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7121 on: January 01, 2018, 12:53:55 PM »
https://9gag.com/gag/aVP8Vjn/the-eyebrow-of-death

I hear if you get the DGAF "look" practiced just right you don't even have to explain yourself. People have spontaneous epiphanies all over the room.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 12:55:46 PM by Just Joe »

Rollin

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7122 on: January 07, 2018, 03:33:10 PM »
I always read the 'Overheard on/at' threads with such joy and shock and am thankful, though curious that I never get much negative feedback/options/excuses about financially responsible ways. Well today I actually posted a finance related article and holy fuck! I had no idea some of my good friends were so negative!

The worst part was this: 'there's a whole lot of people who are already living in "clipping every coupon" mode. They don't have the fiscal wiggle room to even get to that first $100k. Plus they may have to sacrifice some quality of life to get to that point (ex: live in a high-crime or poor-school neighbourhood). At that point you really have to ask whether it's even worth trying to chase this particular dream. This sort of investing concept really only works for a small (ie: elite) subset of the population.'

Yikes.

FTR, the article I posted was no big extreme deal
http://www.fourpillarfreedom.com/charlie-munger-the-first-100000-is-a-btch/

I'm so glad that you were quoting someone outside the forum, not making that point yourself!

I'm constantly surprised how vehemently people will fight to discredit any idea that's put forth as something that would improve someone's circumstances.   They absolutely, negatively have have **HAVE** to discredit any idea, immediately, without thought or investigation.   No concept of "Hmm.  That worked for someone else.  How could I modify it to work for my circumstances?" is ever considered.  It just has to be turned down and, more importantly, discredited in anyone else's eyes.

Drives me up the friggin' wall.

I don't care if someone chooses to make piss-poor financial decisions and pay the consequences.

But it's just plain evil to teach people they can't possibly succeed when it's been proven that people can.

When people start teaching others to fail, I point out they are wrong.   For repeat offenders I've simply quit trying to be super polite about it.  I don't care if they don't like it or it annoys them.  If one person out there gets the right info to turn their life around, it will have been time well spent.

Have you ever seen a bucket full of crabs? They climb all over each other and try to get out. One might just reach the top and the others pull him/her back in. Same thing here (although some might call it part of the ego or even the pain body) with humans.
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barbaz

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7123 on: January 08, 2018, 12:46:17 AM »
Have you ever seen a bucket full of crabs? They climb all over each other and try to get out. One might just reach the top and the others pull him/her back in. Same thing here (although some might call it part of the ego or even the pain body) with humans.
There’s even a Wikipedia article on this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality

Kashmani

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7124 on: January 08, 2018, 07:33:59 AM »
This is untrue. A realist would point out that their glass is dirty or small. A pessimist would complain that they're probably going to drop and break it tomorrow. You can be both a realist and an optimist at the same time (Yes I have a small glass, but I can still work to fill it!). There is nothing wrong with meeting people where they're at and helping them work up from there, which is actually exactly what you are describing in your running example.

An engineer would point out that the glass has adequate redundancy to provide a sufficient margin of safety.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7125 on: January 08, 2018, 12:20:26 PM »
One of my friends paid for DNA ancestry tests for her dogs and posted the family trees on Facebook. She's a nice person and generally frugal, so I'm not sure what to think. Doggie DNA: Crazy Consumerism or Responsible Dog Ownership?

Update: It looks like the cost is $75 per dog. That seems like crazy consumerism to me.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 12:23:29 PM by Metta »

ketchup

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7126 on: January 08, 2018, 01:31:21 PM »
One of my friends paid for DNA ancestry tests for her dogs and posted the family trees on Facebook. She's a nice person and generally frugal, so I'm not sure what to think. Doggie DNA: Crazy Consumerism or Responsible Dog Ownership?

Update: It looks like the cost is $75 per dog. That seems like crazy consumerism to me.
Apparently they're basically bullshit too.  Databases nowhere near complete enough.  You might DNA test a pure-bred golden retriever and have the test say it's 30% beagle.

RidetheRain

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7127 on: January 08, 2018, 01:44:43 PM »
One of my friends paid for DNA ancestry tests for her dogs and posted the family trees on Facebook. She's a nice person and generally frugal, so I'm not sure what to think. Doggie DNA: Crazy Consumerism or Responsible Dog Ownership?

Update: It looks like the cost is $75 per dog. That seems like crazy consumerism to me.
Apparently they're basically bullshit too.  Databases nowhere near complete enough.  You might DNA test a pure-bred golden retriever and have the test say it's 30% beagle.

Yeah, they're pretty much scams. My old roommate has a tiny little Yorkie (like 6lbs) with all the genetic problems of poor breeding to keep it "pure". When she (weirdly) decided to get her dog tested it came back as a significant percentage of American Pit Bull Terrier. I'm pretty sure a pit bull's head is bigger than this dog.
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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7128 on: January 08, 2018, 10:45:21 PM »
<bracing for face punches> I had my stray shelter pet DNA tested  She is gorgeous.  Long, black and white fur.  I wanted to know what to look for if I want to get another dog like her.  She ended up being 3/4 pomeranian 1/4 chihuahua.  In justification,   I have no debt,  max all tax advantaged accounts.  Yah. 

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7129 on: January 09, 2018, 12:30:44 AM »
I made my dog Pay for his own DNA testing.  I’m teaching him fiscal responsibility

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7130 on: January 09, 2018, 05:38:52 AM »
We had ours fixed so his DNA is pretty irrelevant now...

Just Joe

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7131 on: January 09, 2018, 08:59:12 AM »
I'm pretty sure our dog is related to wolves if you back far enough. That's all we need to know.

Now my kids and relatives - there are some questions there. The kids might be from another planet and my relatives - I must have adopted them when I was younger.

economista

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7132 on: January 09, 2018, 09:23:49 AM »
My brother and his girlfriend got their dog's DNA tested.  They thought he was pure-bred husky but it turns out he is 25% akita.  So now all of her facebook/instagram posts don't end with #huskies of instragram, they all end with #huskies of instagram #akitas of instagram (and about another 10 hashtags each time).  I'm pretty sure adding another hashtag is the only beneficial thing they've found out by paying for the DNA testing.  But then again, they take their dog to a psychiatrist, so maybe the psychiatrist is using the results for something?
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ducky19

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7133 on: January 09, 2018, 10:48:48 AM »
My brother and his girlfriend got their dog's DNA tested.  They thought he was pure-bred husky but it turns out he is 25% akita.  So now all of her facebook/instagram posts don't end with #huskies of instragram, they all end with #huskies of instagram #akitas of instagram (and about another 10 hashtags each time).  I'm pretty sure adding another hashtag is the only beneficial thing they've found out by paying for the DNA testing.  But then again, they take their dog to a psychiatrist, so maybe the psychiatrist is using the results for something?

#helpmepickmyjawupoffthefloor

partgypsy

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7134 on: January 09, 2018, 10:51:57 AM »
Facepunch me but I had my rescue mixed breed dna tested. It was worth it for the infotainment alone. I did it because he had certain behaviors and I wanted to see where they were coming from. For example extremely loud barking, breaking out of our backyard by jumping/climbing out of a 6 foot fence where the tree met it, or after that part was reinforced, digging underneath it to run off; killer instinct for "vermin"; and an incredible nose. He came out at 50% fox terrier, 25% coonhound, and 25% German shepherd. We just wanted to know where the crazy was coming from. He would have been a better farm/working dog than a simple animal companion but we did the best we could.

Nudelkopf

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7135 on: January 09, 2018, 11:49:03 AM »
25% coonhound
Okay, I had to google this. Do you guys not use coon for black people too?

MrsDinero

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7136 on: January 09, 2018, 11:53:12 AM »
25% coonhound
Okay, I had to google this. Do you guys not use coon for black people too?

I suppose some people do, but it is an incredibly racist/derogatory term. Don't use it.
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Dollar Slice

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7137 on: January 09, 2018, 12:03:34 PM »
25% coonhound
Okay, I had to google this. Do you guys not use coon for black people too?

The "coon" in coonhound refers to raccoons, which the dogs were bred to hunt. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coon_hunting

MrsDinero is correct about it being very racist and offensive when applied to humans.
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boyerbt

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7138 on: January 09, 2018, 12:05:00 PM »
Facepunch me but I had my rescue mixed breed dna tested. It was worth it for the infotainment alone. I did it because he had certain behaviors and I wanted to see where they were coming from. For example extremely loud barking, breaking out of our backyard by jumping/climbing out of a 6 foot fence where the tree met it, or after that part was reinforced, digging underneath it to run off; killer instinct for "vermin"; and an incredible nose. He came out at 50% fox terrier, 25% coonhound, and 25% German shepherd. We just wanted to know where the crazy was coming from. He would have been a better farm/working dog than a simple animal companion but we did the best we could.

What does he look like? Did you have any guesses prior to sending off the DNA test?
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FrugalToque

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7139 on: January 09, 2018, 12:25:54 PM »
25% coonhound
Okay, I had to google this. Do you guys not use coon for black people too?

Not sure why this got flagged to me, but yes, Americans consider use of the term 'coon, with or without apostrophe, to refer to black people, as racist.

I think someone referred to the previous president that way (or was it a coyote in the white house?)

Definitely not polite.

I imagine "coonhound" could have some problems too, as I'm picturing this as a slang term up there with "cougar" for middle-aged women who go after younger men.  But it's probably also a legitimate term used by dog breeders.

Toque.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 12:30:53 PM by FrugalToque »

Dollar Slice

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7140 on: January 09, 2018, 12:31:33 PM »
25% coonhound
Okay, I had to google this. Do you guys not use coon for black people too?

Not sure why this got flagged to me, but yes, Americans often use the term 'coon, with or without apostrophe, to refer to black people.

I don't think it's right to say Americans "often" use that term that way. I've literally never heard someone say this in my entire life, because it's despicable. Which is probably why someone flagged it. I'm not sure where foreigners are getting the idea that this is common usage.
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FrugalToque

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7141 on: January 09, 2018, 12:45:20 PM »
25% coonhound
Okay, I had to google this. Do you guys not use coon for black people too?

Not sure why this got flagged to me, but yes, Americans often use the term 'coon, with or without apostrophe, to refer to black people.

I don't think it's right to say Americans "often" use that term that way. I've literally never heard someone say this in my entire life, because it's despicable. Which is probably why someone flagged it. I'm not sure where foreigners are getting the idea that this is common usage.

I agree ... I reworded what I wrote once I realized how I wrote it.  I meant that it's considered racist in the U.S., whereas other places in the world might not know anything about the word.

Toque.

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7142 on: January 09, 2018, 01:01:29 PM »
25% coonhound
Okay, I had to google this. Do you guys not use coon for black people too?

Not sure why this got flagged to me, but yes, Americans often use the term 'coon, with or without apostrophe, to refer to black people.

I don't think it's right to say Americans "often" use that term that way. I've literally never heard someone say this in my entire life, because it's despicable. Which is probably why someone flagged it. I'm not sure where foreigners are getting the idea that this is common usage.

I agree ... I reworded what I wrote once I realized how I wrote it.  I meant that it's considered racist in the U.S., whereas other places in the world might not know anything about the word.

Toque.

It's considered racist by the rest of Australia too, but unfortunately it's still a brand of cheese.

Quote

Toowoomba academic Stephen Hagan ... said he would now focus his time and effort on fighting Dairy Farmers’ Coon cheese.

“Initially, Dairy Farmers said it was named after Edward Coon, who revolutionised the speeding process of making cheese,” he told AAP.

“But I’ve questioned the authenticity of that story.

Mr Hagan claims the cheese, formerly manufactured by Kraft, used to have a black wraparound and was named Coon as a joke.

“I want Dairy Farmers to show me the evidence of Edward Coon being honoured an honorary doctorate and what year he received that honorary doctorate,” he said.

“If they can prove to me that Edward Coon was a famous cheesemaker, I will drop my campaign.

https://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/activist-targets-coon-cheese/343670/

Just Joe

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7143 on: January 09, 2018, 02:29:43 PM »
25% coonhound
Okay, I had to google this. Do you guys not use coon for black people too?

Not sure why this got flagged to me, but yes, Americans often use the term 'coon, with or without apostrophe, to refer to black people.

I don't think it's right to say Americans "often" use that term that way. I've literally never heard someone say this in my entire life, because it's despicable. Which is probably why someone flagged it. I'm not sure where foreigners are getting the idea that this is common usage.

Go further south. I've heard a couple of old timers (long dead now) use the term to stir up problems.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 02:32:00 PM by Just Joe »

katscratch

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7144 on: January 09, 2018, 02:35:54 PM »
Coonhound as was said earlier is a group of breeds in the larger hound group of dogs - bred for game hunting, specifically raccoons. Nothing to do with the other phrase.

When the dog DNA tests first came out they were only accurate for mixed breed dogs due to the particular genetic markers they were looking for. I worked at a veterinary hospital and companies would let us send ours in to test against their database. I have a Miniature Pinscher that was from a show breeder and had documentation of generations of lineage back to when they were still used for hunting. His result came back with a tiny smidge of Shih Tzu hahahaha - we joke all the time that the Shih Tzu would've been that one crazy uncle that's always drunk at family gatherings. Every time my dog does something dumb and un-terrier-like we blame it on "Uncle Bob" :)
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Dollar Slice

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7145 on: January 09, 2018, 03:05:14 PM »
Go further south. I've heard a couple of old timers (long dead now) use the term to stir up problems.

Most of my family is in, and from, the deep south. I've been in FL, AL, TN, GA, TX, LA, etc. Never heard it. It is not a thing that people commonly say. I'm not really counting "long dead" people. ;-) 

Thanks for the clarification @FrugalToque - I posted while you were editing, I guess.

To the topic (or at least the current tangent) a Facebook friend of mine did her dog DNA thing and it came back half and half chihuahua and pit bull... they tell people they have a Chia Pit.
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ketchup

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7146 on: January 09, 2018, 03:23:21 PM »
Go further south. I've heard a couple of old timers (long dead now) use the term to stir up problems.

Most of my family is in, and from, the deep south. I've been in FL, AL, TN, GA, TX, LA, etc. Never heard it. It is not a thing that people commonly say. I'm not really counting "long dead" people. ;-) 

Thanks for the clarification @FrugalToque - I posted while you were editing, I guess.

To the topic (or at least the current tangent) a Facebook friend of mine did her dog DNA thing and it came back half and half chihuahua and pit bull... they tell people they have a Chia Pit.
I rescind my previous scorn of this practice.  That makes it 100% worth it.

Rural

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7147 on: January 09, 2018, 07:07:34 PM »
I've not heard the derogatory use of "coon" in years, I'm happy to report. I did hear it, frequently, three and more decades ago, so things are better on that front.


"Coon" is still a very common word, referring to racoons. Or coonhounds.


Speaking of which, coonhounds are crazy, I can confirm. Do not keep as pets (or try to). They can climb chain-link fences and dig under anything at all. They'd very much like to please people, are incredibly sweet, and just. can't. help. themselves. Not meant for pets. Not their fault.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7148 on: January 09, 2018, 09:25:41 PM »
And then there are these kids...

Quote
(T)he team from Kings Mills, Ohio, ... was named “The Wet Dream Team.” They also noticed that the names on the backs of the high-school-aged boys’ jerseys included phrases like “Knee Grow” and “Coon.”

Inaya

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #7149 on: January 10, 2018, 06:48:59 AM »
And then there are these kids...

Quote
(T)he team from Kings Mills, Ohio, ... was named “The Wet Dream Team.” They also noticed that the names on the backs of the high-school-aged boys’ jerseys included phrases like “Knee Grow” and “Coon.”
Okay, teens pushing boundaries, etc., I get it.  But wtf were the adults who paid for and approved the jerseys thinking?!
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