Author Topic: Student loan debt article  (Read 4460 times)

FIRE@50

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Re: Student loan debt article
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2018, 08:28:15 AM »
If you don't like STEM, just get a generic business degree. Everything is a business.

Also, woodshop was my favorite class in high school.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Student loan debt article
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2018, 08:53:49 AM »
2. The cultural wisdom, at least 15 years ago, was that having any degree would be a worthwhile investment that would absolutely pay off long term.  I remember a lot of graphs explaining how a college degree in any subject/industry would net bigger earnings over a lifetime.
It does!

LennStar

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Re: Student loan debt article
« Reply #52 on: July 24, 2018, 08:55:26 AM »
If you don't like STEM, just get a generic business degree.

company boss: There are too many generic business degrees. We cannot use someone who does not even know what he wants to do!

Just Joe

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Re: Student loan debt article
« Reply #53 on: July 24, 2018, 12:17:24 PM »
It IS more complicated to go to school later - if you have a mortgage, car payments and other debt. It IS more complicated later when you have babies that need all your attention and they don't yet care that you have a test tomorrow. This is how DW and I did it. We still turned out just fine. Maybe a few years behind the curve but whatever.

Your post is spot on.

FIRE@50

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Re: Student loan debt article
« Reply #54 on: July 24, 2018, 12:32:06 PM »
If you don't like STEM, just get a generic business degree.

company boss: There are too many generic business degrees. We cannot use someone who does not even know what he wants to do!
That is pretty funny.

I work for a huge financial services corporation. I have friends/coworkers that majored in business, finance, economics, marketing, physical education, math, and some that didn't go to college at all. The key to being successful around here is, can you solve the problem in front of you?

Dabnasty

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Re: Student loan debt article
« Reply #55 on: July 24, 2018, 01:24:50 PM »
I remember seeing a poster somewhat like this on the wall in middle school. Even then it always made me wonder, but don't all the smart people go to college? Maybe they're making more money because they're smart?

That seems like a pretty serious flaw in the argument that degree holders earn more because of the degree. Are there any studies that have tried to correct for the obvious correlation between more intelligent/motivated individuals being encouraged to go to college?


mavendrill

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Re: Student loan debt article
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2018, 10:17:08 AM »
1. Go to an in-state college. I'll take Michigan or Michigan State over NYU, anyway -- as this dude should have. That $50K a year thus would have been $15K tops by 2008ish numbers, less if he lived at home.

2. Don't major in English. Want to write? Great. Major in business, computer science, or engineering and exercise your creativity at the student media outlets. You can still pursue media jobs, such as they are, but you'll have a back-up plan.

3. Don't ever move to NYC for college unless it comes with a free academic ride -- and a couch in some relative's apartment.

Wanted to comment on this...
University of Michigan is a world class University that gives an education competitive with literally anywhere else in the world. 

Michigan State is a great education as well.

If they lived in North Dakota or someplace with a bad public University system I'd feel sympathetic, but Michigan is at worst the fifth best state for a public school.

"
My debt was the result, in equal measure, of a chain of rotten luck and a system that is an abject failure by design. "

No one who thinks like this is going to succeed in life.  Their debt wasn't bad luck, it was inevitable from attending nyu.  Their difficulties dealing with it may be some luck, but they are refusing to take responsibility for the biggest component of their problems, which is their choices

dcheesi

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Re: Student loan debt article
« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2018, 10:55:07 AM »
2. The cultural wisdom, at least 15 years ago, was that having any degree would be a worthwhile investment that would absolutely pay off long term.  I remember a lot of graphs explaining how a college degree in any subject/industry would net bigger earnings over a lifetime.
It does!
Not always, and not necessarily in the same way as in previous generations.

It used to be that a college degree was sufficient to get your foot in the door of a decent office job. A relevant degree was a plus, of course, but there was plenty of room in the general office for liberal arts folks who could process paperwork all day. Just having that piece of paper all but guaranteed that you would find a white-collar position somewhere.

Nowadays, a degree is no longer sufficient, but increasingly necessary for those same jobs. There are tons college grads in the job market these days, and fewer generic paper-pusher jobs (relatively speaking) with the advent of computer automation. So on the one hand, students with generic degrees aren't guaranteed a job anymore, which is why you see so many stories of degreed folks working in coffee shops etc. Meanwhile, employers have also felt free to slap degree requirements on jobs that didn't previously have them, since they know they can easily fill those jobs with grads. So the situation for non-grads is even more grim.

One way to look at it is that a college degree now is more and more like a high school degree was in past years: absolutely essential for finding a job in most white collar (and even some blue-ish collar) industries, but carrying no guarantees whatsoever. It's the new bare minimum, in other words. The only difference is, this new minimum educational bar comes with a hefty price tag.

It's also worth noting that actual pay rates of those generic office jobs haven't kept pace with either the elite specialist positions or the non-degree trades. So even the "lucky" ones that do land those office positions are paying more for the privilege and getting less in return.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 11:02:22 AM by dcheesi »

Paul der Krake

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Re: Student loan debt article
« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2018, 01:43:25 PM »
2. The cultural wisdom, at least 15 years ago, was that having any degree would be a worthwhile investment that would absolutely pay off long term.  I remember a lot of graphs explaining how a college degree in any subject/industry would net bigger earnings over a lifetime.
It does!
Not always, and not necessarily in the same way as in previous generations.

It used to be that a college degree was sufficient to get your foot in the door of a decent office job. A relevant degree was a plus, of course, but there was plenty of room in the general office for liberal arts folks who could process paperwork all day. Just having that piece of paper all but guaranteed that you would find a white-collar position somewhere.

Nowadays, a degree is no longer sufficient, but increasingly necessary for those same jobs. There are tons college grads in the job market these days, and fewer generic paper-pusher jobs (relatively speaking) with the advent of computer automation. So on the one hand, students with generic degrees aren't guaranteed a job anymore, which is why you see so many stories of degreed folks working in coffee shops etc. Meanwhile, employers have also felt free to slap degree requirements on jobs that didn't previously have them, since they know they can easily fill those jobs with grads. So the situation for non-grads is even more grim.

One way to look at it is that a college degree now is more and more like a high school degree was in past years: absolutely essential for finding a job in most white collar (and even some blue-ish collar) industries, but carrying no guarantees whatsoever. It's the new bare minimum, in other words. The only difference is, this new minimum educational bar comes with a hefty price tag.

It's also worth noting that actual pay rates of those generic office jobs haven't kept pace with either the elite specialist positions or the non-degree trades. So even the "lucky" ones that do land those office positions are paying more for the privilege and getting less in return.
That a college degree is the bare minimum is demonstrably false, since two thirds of young Americans don't have college degrees, and unemployment isn't at 66%.

Yeah, the world is more competitive now, and there are traps that are absolutely possible to fall into. But statistically college is still one of the very best investments a young person can do. To take an extreme example, even graduating with 100k of debt (way more than the median), and earning just 10k/year more than your degree-less peers (way less than the median), over a lifetime of earnings it's absolutely worth it.

Dabnasty

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Re: Student loan debt article
« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2018, 03:06:16 PM »
2. The cultural wisdom, at least 15 years ago, was that having any degree would be a worthwhile investment that would absolutely pay off long term.  I remember a lot of graphs explaining how a college degree in any subject/industry would net bigger earnings over a lifetime.
It does!
Not always, and not necessarily in the same way as in previous generations.

It used to be that a college degree was sufficient to get your foot in the door of a decent office job. A relevant degree was a plus, of course, but there was plenty of room in the general office for liberal arts folks who could process paperwork all day. Just having that piece of paper all but guaranteed that you would find a white-collar position somewhere.

Nowadays, a degree is no longer sufficient, but increasingly necessary for those same jobs. There are tons college grads in the job market these days, and fewer generic paper-pusher jobs (relatively speaking) with the advent of computer automation. So on the one hand, students with generic degrees aren't guaranteed a job anymore, which is why you see so many stories of degreed folks working in coffee shops etc. Meanwhile, employers have also felt free to slap degree requirements on jobs that didn't previously have them, since they know they can easily fill those jobs with grads. So the situation for non-grads is even more grim.

One way to look at it is that a college degree now is more and more like a high school degree was in past years: absolutely essential for finding a job in most white collar (and even some blue-ish collar) industries, but carrying no guarantees whatsoever. It's the new bare minimum, in other words. The only difference is, this new minimum educational bar comes with a hefty price tag.

It's also worth noting that actual pay rates of those generic office jobs haven't kept pace with either the elite specialist positions or the non-degree trades. So even the "lucky" ones that do land those office positions are paying more for the privilege and getting less in return.
That a college degree is the bare minimum is demonstrably false, since two thirds of young Americans don't have college degrees, and unemployment isn't at 66%.

Yeah, the world is more competitive now, and there are traps that are absolutely possible to fall into. But statistically college is still one of the very best investments a young person can do. To take an extreme example, even graduating with 100k of debt (way more than the median), and earning just 10k/year more than your degree-less peers (way less than the median), over a lifetime of earnings it's absolutely worth it.

But if I only plan to work for 10-15 years... Oh wait, I forgot. That's not normal :)

Also the median statistical earnings increase you refer to still doesn't account for the fact that the more intelligent/motivated students are pushed towards college. They likely would have had higher earnings as a demographic anyway. Not to mention the 4+ years of lost income.

dcheesi

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Re: Student loan debt article
« Reply #60 on: August 02, 2018, 09:06:42 AM »
2. The cultural wisdom, at least 15 years ago, was that having any degree would be a worthwhile investment that would absolutely pay off long term.  I remember a lot of graphs explaining how a college degree in any subject/industry would net bigger earnings over a lifetime.
It does!
Not always, and not necessarily in the same way as in previous generations.

It used to be that a college degree was sufficient to get your foot in the door of a decent office job. A relevant degree was a plus, of course, but there was plenty of room in the general office for liberal arts folks who could process paperwork all day. Just having that piece of paper all but guaranteed that you would find a white-collar position somewhere.

Nowadays, a degree is no longer sufficient, but increasingly necessary for those same jobs. There are tons college grads in the job market these days, and fewer generic paper-pusher jobs (relatively speaking) with the advent of computer automation. So on the one hand, students with generic degrees aren't guaranteed a job anymore, which is why you see so many stories of degreed folks working in coffee shops etc. Meanwhile, employers have also felt free to slap degree requirements on jobs that didn't previously have them, since they know they can easily fill those jobs with grads. So the situation for non-grads is even more grim.

One way to look at it is that a college degree now is more and more like a high school degree was in past years: absolutely essential for finding a job in most white collar (and even some blue-ish collar) industries, but carrying no guarantees whatsoever. It's the new bare minimum, in other words. The only difference is, this new minimum educational bar comes with a hefty price tag.

It's also worth noting that actual pay rates of those generic office jobs haven't kept pace with either the elite specialist positions or the non-degree trades. So even the "lucky" ones that do land those office positions are paying more for the privilege and getting less in return.
That a college degree is the bare minimum is demonstrably false, since two thirds of young Americans don't have college degrees, and unemployment isn't at 66%.

Yeah, the world is more competitive now, and there are traps that are absolutely possible to fall into. But statistically college is still one of the very best investments a young person can do. To take an extreme example, even graduating with 100k of debt (way more than the median), and earning just 10k/year more than your degree-less peers (way less than the median), over a lifetime of earnings it's absolutely worth it.
Yeah, but the problem is all of those folks graduating with $100k and not finding jobs with a $10k/yr premium. It used to be that you paid $20-50k for a diploma that pretty much guaranteed you a salary bump; nowadays, you're asking people to pay $100k+ for a chance at getting that nice salary bump. It's like of like playing Russian roulette with lifetime financial outlook.

Slee_stack

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Re: Student loan debt article
« Reply #61 on: August 02, 2018, 11:29:17 AM »
The root cause of the author's problem can be summed up by his own admittance:  I didn't care about money.

Why didn't he care?

KodeBlue

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Re: Student loan debt article
« Reply #62 on: August 02, 2018, 01:20:26 PM »
The root cause of the author's problem can be summed up by his own admittance:  I didn't care about money.

Why didn't he care?

That line jumped out at me also. If you don't care about money don't borrow it from people who do.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Student loan debt article
« Reply #63 on: August 02, 2018, 03:53:40 PM »
The root cause of the author's problem can be summed up by his own admittance:  I didn't care about money.

Why didn't he care?

He must have cared, otherwise he wouldn't have borrowed so very much of it.

"I don't care about money" is a mouth noise people make to help avoid the otherwise predictable consequences for their bad or self-destructive financial decisions. The statement attempts to elevate the speaker to a higher moral plane, above the lesser creatures who do care about money and who aren't ashamed to admit it, and to put the speaker in a position where it feels morally justifiable to take from the other person.

People who say they "don't care about money" are generally only telling part of the truth. They care about whether they have food, clothing, shelter, and other necessities. They often enjoy luxuries. These are all things it takes money to acquire. They invariably care about whether they have things that money can provide. But they very seldom are willing to do what it takes to get money if it means accepting inconvenience, hardship, discomfort, or other things that Stoics get off on. It's easier to run a con job. The person who "doesn't care about money" is generally scooping up as much as they can of other people's resources. This can be done by borrowing, by mooching, or by outright theft.

The author clearly didn't care much about other people's money, since he has no intention of repaying the loan in any way. Nor is he particularly bothered by the impact his selfishness has on other people. He likes other people's money, or at least the things and experiences it provides, but he doesn't value the time and effort it took for other people to acquire the resources. It's basic self-absorbed behavior... a way of not caring about other people.

Slee_stack

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Re: Student loan debt article
« Reply #64 on: August 03, 2018, 02:54:24 PM »
Eloquent and insightful as always TGS.

I do think if kids were forced to feel the pain (consequences) of poor money decisions early on, that might reduce the likelihood of making bigger financial mistakes later.

I guess parents would rather be buddies than teachers.  Or are ignorant themselves.

Ignorance seldom turns out to be a strength in the real world.