Author Topic: Overheard on Facebook  (Read 1827968 times)

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4400 on: May 10, 2016, 12:04:06 PM »
Yep the money laundering regs are ridiculous!

We have (like any good mustacians) lots of money. I want to pay some off the mortgage, and they need to see where it came from. So I sent two years of bank statements (that's as long as our last mortgage, and as long as the linked account it's in has been open).

The statement clearly show x going in each month, only y going out each month, resulting in z underspend each month. z timesed by the number of months we've owned the house equals the savings.

But because we brought some savings into this account from a previous savings account (because all like good MMM followers we move the money to where the best rates are) they want statements for that account showing the underspend too... but that account was online only and I closed it 2 years ago, so that I would be eligible for 'new customer' bonuses again. Ahhhh!

I take it you don't download your statements every month?

I do so every month. I never really had a good reason for it other than being OCD...but I guess I now have a reason to do so!
(Sort of. I'm not actually saving up for a house, but better to keep the habit up than to remember oh yeah two years before I want to pay off a mortgage I need to start collecting my statements....)
I used to be OCD like that, and then one day, I just...stopped.  No idea what caused it.  I focus now on making sure I have documentation that I need.  For instance, when I pay something off, I want that receipt.  But when I incur a debt?  nope.  I don't care if it gets lost.  (except for the terms and conditions) 
Here's an interesting bit of information.  I'm sure it won't work in all cases, but for mustachians, it should because our loans typically don't stretch us so thin. When I took out my mortgage a few years ago, the banks were at the height of careful vetting.  They asked for scads and scads of proof and documentation, which I supplied.  The banks knew I was providing the same info to a different bank because I was competing them against one another.  Toward the end, when they asked for "just one more thing", I just stopped providing it.  They had everything they needed and everything they had asked for upfront.  I could tell it was someone in the back room looking over the paperwork trying to be extra-thorough.  I just stopped.  And all three banks offered me the loans.  I think there is a point where you can just stop giving them what they ask for.

I still download my statements but I've gotten more lax.  I used to have accounts that would only provide 6 mo tha of statement history so I had to get them before the disappeared.  These days everyone archives my entire history.  Still, when the account closes I lose access. 

Once or twice a year I have a legitimate need to look up some transaction.  This week I couldn't remember where I went for a really cheap Smog check so I had to pull up a two year old statement

LeRainDrop

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4401 on: May 10, 2016, 12:42:30 PM »
Yep the money laundering regs are ridiculous!

We have (like any good mustacians) lots of money. I want to pay some off the mortgage, and they need to see where it came from. So I sent two years of bank statements (that's as long as our last mortgage, and as long as the linked account it's in has been open).

The statement clearly show x going in each month, only y going out each month, resulting in z underspend each month. z timesed by the number of months we've owned the house equals the savings.

But because we brought some savings into this account from a previous savings account (because all like good MMM followers we move the money to where the best rates are) they want statements for that account showing the underspend too... but that account was online only and I closed it 2 years ago, so that I would be eligible for 'new customer' bonuses again. Ahhhh!

I take it you don't download your statements every month?

I do so every month. I never really had a good reason for it other than being OCD...but I guess I now have a reason to do so!
(Sort of. I'm not actually saving up for a house, but better to keep the habit up than to remember oh yeah two years before I want to pay off a mortgage I need to start collecting my statements....)

LOL, same as Johnny!  I just checked my back-up hard drive -- I still have pdfs of E*TRADE statements from 2000 (for an account I closed in 2006), power bills back to 2004, and cable/internet statements beginning in 2007.  Why do I still have all these???  I guess 'cause they don't take up any physical space.

Kitsune

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4402 on: May 10, 2016, 12:59:33 PM »

This is the same cousin who posted over the holidays:  Ugh, just got done cleaning all five bathrooms.  I should hire a maid!   (one of her snarky friends called her out on it with a comment of "You really just posted that to show off that you have FIVE bathrooms?!?")


A week ago I was cleaning my 1.5 bathroom condo and came to the realization that while I want more space and I can afford a bigger house with some stretching, I should hold off until I can afford the big house and the maid.

Just have your wife do it. That's what women are for, after all.


That's what poor women are for.  Rich women outsource that to poor women.  As Senator Warren predicted, we fall in to the two income trap.  We would rather have more income for luxuries, savings, and self worth via job satisfaction, health insurance, a safe place to live, the ability to support the family in case of a disaster/death/layoff, sanity, the ability to use our education and training than have one of us stay at home 24/7, because being home 70% of the time is plenty.

Fixed that for you.

THISTHISTHISTHISTHIS.

Also, y'know, the knowledge that if my husband dies/leaves me/starts acting in ways that make me need to leave, my ability to support myself and my kids are not 100% linked to whether I chose to be sleeping with (or married to) a certain man. THAT HAS VALUE.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4403 on: May 10, 2016, 01:11:02 PM »

This is the same cousin who posted over the holidays:  Ugh, just got done cleaning all five bathrooms.  I should hire a maid!   (one of her snarky friends called her out on it with a comment of "You really just posted that to show off that you have FIVE bathrooms?!?")


A week ago I was cleaning my 1.5 bathroom condo and came to the realization that while I want more space and I can afford a bigger house with some stretching, I should hold off until I can afford the big house and the maid.

Just have your wife do it. That's what women are for, after all.


That's what poor women are for.  Rich women outsource that to poor women.  As Senator Warren predicted, we fall in to the two income trap.  We would rather have more income for luxuries, savings, and self worth via job satisfaction, health insurance, a safe place to live, the ability to support the family in case of a disaster/death/layoff, sanity, the ability to use our education and training than have one of us stay at home 24/7, because being home 70% of the time is plenty.

Fixed that for you.

Mmm, I don't know. If you replace "poor women" with "poor people", I think it does get at the perniciousness of the two income trap that many people fall into. (I am thinking of the income-rich middle classes who can afford to outsource their lives.) The number of people who say that they wish they could stay home with their children but can't afford to is shocking when you consider that a lot of them are well-compensated professionals who are earning minimum wage after accounting for daycare payments.

However, Penelope Trunk, a controversial but excellent blogger, wrote a lot a few years back about how people don't want to admit that they could afford to stay home with their children but don't want to because being around young children all day sucks. I think it's great when children have stay-at-home parents, but I recognise that is as long at the parent is happy to stay at home and doesn't feel like they would chew their own arm off for some adult company. (And other parents often don't count because it's all child-centric.)

I think my ideal utopian world, though, would have part-time work as well-regarded and appropriately compensated (i.e. not only available for shitty by-the-hour jobs but also for professional work, perhaps as a job share). I think a hardworking, skilled/trained person should be able to support their family (adequate food and shelter, not private school and tropical holidays) on one salary, or on two part-time salaries, and that should be normal and widely available. I think it would be great if everyone could work part-time - I think we'd all be a lot happier. I think it's partly that as a society we teach children to take pride in their career, not to take pride in their family or in doing things for themselves or in their hobbies which don't earn them money. I just wish people could say when they work because they need some time to be an adult rather than a parent and not be accused of basically hating their children, rather than having to pretend it's for other reasons. It would be so nice too if fathers could feel equally free to cut back on their hours or even give up work in order to look after their children without being "less of a man".

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4404 on: May 10, 2016, 02:02:32 PM »

This is the same cousin who posted over the holidays:  Ugh, just got done cleaning all five bathrooms.  I should hire a maid!   (one of her snarky friends called her out on it with a comment of "You really just posted that to show off that you have FIVE bathrooms?!?")


A week ago I was cleaning my 1.5 bathroom condo and came to the realization that while I want more space and I can afford a bigger house with some stretching, I should hold off until I can afford the big house and the maid.

Just have your wife do it. That's what women are for, after all.


That's what poor women are for.  Rich women outsource that to poor women.  As Senator Warren predicted, we fall in to the two income trap.  We would rather have more income for luxuries, savings, and self worth via job satisfaction, health insurance, a safe place to live, the ability to support the family in case of a disaster/death/layoff, sanity, the ability to use our education and training than have one of us stay at home 24/7, because being home 70% of the time is plenty.

Fixed that for you.

Mmm, I don't know. If you replace "poor women" with "poor people", I think it does get at the perniciousness of the two income trap that many people fall into. (I am thinking of the income-rich middle classes who can afford to outsource their lives.) The number of people who say that they wish they could stay home with their children but can't afford to is shocking when you consider that a lot of them are well-compensated professionals who are earning minimum wage after accounting for daycare payments.

However, Penelope Trunk, a controversial but excellent blogger, wrote a lot a few years back about how people don't want to admit that they could afford to stay home with their children but don't want to because being around young children all day sucks. I think it's great when children have stay-at-home parents, but I recognise that is as long at the parent is happy to stay at home and doesn't feel like they would chew their own arm off for some adult company. (And other parents often don't count because it's all child-centric.)

I think my ideal utopian world, though, would have part-time work as well-regarded and appropriately compensated (i.e. not only available for shitty by-the-hour jobs but also for professional work, perhaps as a job share). I think a hardworking, skilled/trained person should be able to support their family (adequate food and shelter, not private school and tropical holidays) on one salary, or on two part-time salaries, and that should be normal and widely available. I think it would be great if everyone could work part-time - I think we'd all be a lot happier. I think it's partly that as a society we teach children to take pride in their career, not to take pride in their family or in doing things for themselves or in their hobbies which don't earn them money. I just wish people could say when they work because they need some time to be an adult rather than a parent and not be accused of basically hating their children, rather than having to pretend it's for other reasons. It would be so nice too if fathers could feel equally free to cut back on their hours or even give up work in order to look after their children without being "less of a man".

It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

I'm a huge fan of splitting the nasty work evenly, and being stuck in a house with children DOES suck. Nothing about that situation is traditional or natural. Loading all the responsibility for that onto one designated caregiving adult is a form of torture.

In agrarian or hunter/gatherer societies, small children helped with some of the foraging or incidental work around the farm, and they were outside the dwelling. There was also a collective behavior wherein the kids ran around in packs and supervision duties were shared between adults who were willing and able to look out for kids who weren't theirs. Each caregiver wasn't hemmed in with 100% of the responsibility for a few designated recipients and little to no contact with the outside world. There was such thing as reciprocity and exchange. This pattern exists in modern agrarian and hunter/gatherer societies, and it's also supported by the archaeological record. If you take a look at some of the earliest ruins, you'll see how small the living spaces were. People didn't live indoors full-time except briefly during the winter.
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randymarsh

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4405 on: May 10, 2016, 08:32:07 PM »
It would be so nice too if fathers could feel equally free to cut back on their hours or even give up work in order to look after their children without being "less of a man".

It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Wouldn't it be even better for neither parent to be expected to be a Superman/Superwoman?

I'm all about better work/life balance and making parenthood and professional work more compatible, but I think at a certain point we're deluding ourselves. Can people really clean the house, raise the kids, and be a great CEO/Director/President at the same time? Something has got to give.
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dragoncar

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4406 on: May 10, 2016, 09:25:22 PM »
It would be so nice too if fathers could feel equally free to cut back on their hours or even give up work in order to look after their children without being "less of a man".

It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Wouldn't it be even better for neither parent to be expected to be a Superman/Superwoman?

I'm all about better work/life balance and making parenthood and professional work more compatible, but I think at a certain point we're deluding ourselves. Can people really clean the house, raise the kids, and be a great CEO/Director/President at the same time? Something has got to give.

Uh, that's what mole people are for.  You feed them a steady diet of roots and herbs, and they clean your house, raise your kids, and run your company.  All that's left for you to do is gather the roots and herbs.

johnny847

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4407 on: May 10, 2016, 09:31:44 PM »
Yep the money laundering regs are ridiculous!

We have (like any good mustacians) lots of money. I want to pay some off the mortgage, and they need to see where it came from. So I sent two years of bank statements (that's as long as our last mortgage, and as long as the linked account it's in has been open).

The statement clearly show x going in each month, only y going out each month, resulting in z underspend each month. z timesed by the number of months we've owned the house equals the savings.

But because we brought some savings into this account from a previous savings account (because all like good MMM followers we move the money to where the best rates are) they want statements for that account showing the underspend too... but that account was online only and I closed it 2 years ago, so that I would be eligible for 'new customer' bonuses again. Ahhhh!

I take it you don't download your statements every month?

I do so every month. I never really had a good reason for it other than being OCD...but I guess I now have a reason to do so!
(Sort of. I'm not actually saving up for a house, but better to keep the habit up than to remember oh yeah two years before I want to pay off a mortgage I need to start collecting my statements....)

LOL, same as Johnny!  I just checked my back-up hard drive -- I still have pdfs of E*TRADE statements from 2000 (for an account I closed in 2006), power bills back to 2004, and cable/internet statements beginning in 2007.  Why do I still have all these???  I guess 'cause they don't take up any physical space.

Haha you've got me beat. I've only got statements back till 2011.
Then again I didn't have a bank account until 2009.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4408 on: May 10, 2016, 10:14:39 PM »
In agrarian or hunter/gatherer societies, small children helped with some of the foraging or incidental work around the farm, and they were outside the dwelling. There was also a collective behavior wherein the kids ran around in packs and supervision duties were shared between adults who were willing and able to look out for kids who weren't theirs. Each caregiver wasn't hemmed in with 100% of the responsibility for a few designated recipients and little to no contact with the outside world. There was such thing as reciprocity and exchange. This pattern exists in modern agrarian and hunter/gatherer societies, and it's also supported by the archaeological record. If you take a look at some of the earliest ruins, you'll see how small the living spaces were. People didn't live indoors full-time except briefly during the winter.

One of the ideas I've been trying to float out there and get accepted is for agencies who help the poor to provide a parent childcare match-up service.   Most people don't actually know their neighbors anymore.

So, here's the idea.  People who need childcare register with the agency.    They supply how many children need care, their ages and genders, any special needs, and what hours the care is needed for.  They also supply which hours they themselves would be available to watch children.

The agency puts people in contact with one another along with a background check on the people living in the relevant homes.

It's up to the folks to work out a schedule that works for them.  In effect, they would take turns watching each other's kids. 

If a facility was available, the kids could be watched there rather than in someone's home.

Done properly it would be reasonably safe and could cut childcare costs considerably.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4409 on: May 11, 2016, 12:16:54 AM »

One of the ideas I've been trying to float out there and get accepted is for agencies who help the poor to provide a parent childcare match-up service.   Most people don't actually know their neighbors anymore.

So, here's the idea.  People who need childcare register with the agency.    They supply how many children need care, their ages and genders, any special needs, and what hours the care is needed for.  They also supply which hours they themselves would be available to watch children.

The agency puts people in contact with one another along with a background check on the people living in the relevant homes.

It's up to the folks to work out a schedule that works for them.  In effect, they would take turns watching each other's kids. 

If a facility was available, the kids could be watched there rather than in someone's home.

Done properly it would be reasonably safe and could cut childcare costs considerably.

Great idea. Reminds me of this ridiculous situation where some interfering agencies decided that was illegal in the UK for one person to look after another person's kid's on a reciprocal arrangement:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/sep/28/government-orders-review-babysitting-police

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4410 on: May 11, 2016, 08:39:20 AM »
Got invited to a new MLM scheme party.

This time it's clothes.  A "pop up party".

Then I looked into it and found out not only is this stuff fugly (it's all wild prints- that I have never seen anyone wearing anything like this- but I'm sure the women will all go crazy for it, then stuff it in the back of their closet), the consultant has to own the inventory (most MLMs seemed to have moved away from this and drop ship), and the minimum initial investment is $5k.

Brilliant design on the company; but wow, talk about a guaranteed way for most people to lose money.


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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4411 on: May 11, 2016, 08:40:38 AM »

One of the ideas I've been trying to float out there and get accepted is for agencies who help the poor to provide a parent childcare match-up service.   Most people don't actually know their neighbors anymore.

So, here's the idea.  People who need childcare register with the agency.    They supply how many children need care, their ages and genders, any special needs, and what hours the care is needed for.  They also supply which hours they themselves would be available to watch children.

The agency puts people in contact with one another along with a background check on the people living in the relevant homes.

It's up to the folks to work out a schedule that works for them.  In effect, they would take turns watching each other's kids. 

If a facility was available, the kids could be watched there rather than in someone's home.

Done properly it would be reasonably safe and could cut childcare costs considerably.

Great idea. Reminds me of this ridiculous situation where some interfering agencies decided that was illegal in the UK for one person to look after another person's kid's on a reciprocal arrangement:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/sep/28/government-orders-review-babysitting-police

I remember a high school teacher that I was close to my senior year almost freaking out when she found that my parents were out of the country for a few weeks and that I would be home alone. I calmly explained that my neighbors are there and I have 3 pairs of aunts/uncles within a half mile of my house. It actually kinda sucked cause I couldn't throw a party with so many wary eyes....

mm1970

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4412 on: May 11, 2016, 11:35:55 AM »
Quote
I think my ideal utopian world, though, would have part-time work as well-regarded and appropriately compensated (i.e. not only available for shitty by-the-hour jobs but also for professional work, perhaps as a job share). I think a hardworking, skilled/trained person should be able to support their family (adequate food and shelter, not private school and tropical holidays) on one salary, or on two part-time salaries, and that should be normal and widely available. I think it would be great if everyone could work part-time - I think we'd all be a lot happier. I think it's partly that as a society we teach children to take pride in their career, not to take pride in their family or in doing things for themselves or in their hobbies which don't earn them money. I just wish people could say when they work because they need some time to be an adult rather than a parent and not be accused of basically hating their children, rather than having to pretend it's for other reasons. It would be so nice too if fathers could feel equally free to cut back on their hours or even give up work in order to look after their children without being "less of a man".
Preaching to the choir here.  The best time of my life has been working part time.  I felt like I had the best of both worlds. 

It didn't really matter that I needed to pay for full time childcare.
I would work 6 hours a day, but needed about 7 hours of childcare, which is the same price as 8 or 9 hours. So 75% of the pay for full time child care.

The advantages: wiggle room for those 30 hours a week.  I used MUCH less vacation time.  If I needed time off for the doctor, dentist, sick time, school program (me or the kids), I could take it.  No biggie.  If it was 2 hours, I had 2 whole weeks to make up those hours whenever.  Heck, I could skip lunch 2 days, and there you go.

I could have a leisurely morning with the kid/ kids, AND then get off at 3.  Pick them up at child care/ school, take them to the park, play, do homework, and STILL have time to cook dinner!
At 30 hours, I still got vacation (just less of it) and health insurance.  I was a lot more focused at work because I wasn't exhausted, and got almost as much done.

Unfortunately, *most* tech jobs aren't set up that way, and for no good reason.  Over the last couple of decades, I've just seen companies increase the work load.  The assumption is 50 hours a week.  If you aren't interested in doing that, then you simply aren't dedicated.  You aren't worth whatever your title is, because obviously you don't care enough.  Nevermind that you still have the skills to do the job, and you just only want to do the job for 30 hours.

My husband told me a couple of weeks ago "I can tell I'm middle aged".  I asked "how".  He said "well, despite getting paid a decent amount, I really don't care to work overtime." (and he works in a rare company that pays engineers by the hour - not 1.5x, but if he works 50 hrs, he gets paid for it.)  So his company is super busy with a lot of contracts right now.  He said "I just want to work my 40 and come home and hang out with my family."

We're going to be experimenting for one week this summer - we are skipping a week of summer camp  for the older child (10 yo).  We are going to split the work day and do a little bit of work from home.  We do that occasionally when someone is sick, but there is always the pressure to work more.  I think that's the hardest part - the pressure to do more, the guilt that you aren't doing more.  You know, I've come to realize that unrealistic expectations really aren't my problem.  Sorry, I have a baseball game to get to.  Yes, I will do that project, after these other 5.

And as far as admitting what we want.  I can afford to stay at home.  I admit it all the time.  I do not want to stay at home.  I would *love* to work PT again, but my company and boss will not allow it.  However, I have a very flexible schedule now.  So I work late on the 2x a week that I need to be here for meetings.  And I leave early whenever I want on the other days.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4413 on: May 11, 2016, 12:42:48 PM »
It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Most of that criticism comes from other mothers/women.  Let's face it, (some of) you women tend to be horrific to one another.  Whereas if a man doesn't mow his lawn one week, his man neighbors likely think "great Jim didn't mow his lawn so now it won't look bad if I don't mow mine."
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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4414 on: May 11, 2016, 01:27:21 PM »
It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Most of that criticism comes from other mothers/women.  Let's face it, (some of) you women tend to be horrific to one another.  Whereas if a man doesn't mow his lawn one week, his man neighbors likely think "great Jim didn't mow his lawn so now it won't look bad if I don't mow mine."

It's true that females are vicious to each other, but the vast majority of the undone housework is not visible outside the home. So that's not where the criticism comes from.

Ever hear a kid whine when dinner isn't ready on time or when they're late to a birthday party? How about a working parent who has an important business meeting that day but whose suit is still at the dry cleaner's, or who has just come back from a long day at work to trip over something left in the living room? That's where most of the pressure comes from, and it's directed at the designated housework-doer.
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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4415 on: May 11, 2016, 01:29:51 PM »
It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Most of that criticism comes from other mothers/women.  Let's face it, (some of) you women tend to be horrific to one another.  Whereas if a man doesn't mow his lawn one week, his man neighbors likely think "great Jim didn't mow his lawn so now it won't look bad if I don't mow mine."

It's true that females are vicious to each other, but the vast majority of the undone housework is not visible outside the home. So that's not where the criticism comes from.

Ever hear a kid whine when dinner isn't ready on time or when they're late to a birthday party? How about a working parent who has an important business meeting that day but whose suit is still at the dry cleaner's, or who has just come back from a long day at work to trip over something left in the living room? That's where most of the pressure comes from, and it's directed at the designated housework-doer.

Sounds awfully specific, like maybe it's specific to your home?  Maybe you should take it up with your family, I thought you were referring to the societal pressures placed on women (mostly by other women) to have a perfect home.
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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4416 on: May 11, 2016, 01:33:41 PM »
It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Most of that criticism comes from other mothers/women.  Let's face it, (some of) you women tend to be horrific to one another.  Whereas if a man doesn't mow his lawn one week, his man neighbors likely think "great Jim didn't mow his lawn so now it won't look bad if I don't mow mine."
\

i wonder who started the women are so mean to each other myth.

no woman has ever told me, upon meeting, that i should hurry up and have kids before my uterus falls out.

MrMoogle

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4417 on: May 11, 2016, 01:40:39 PM »
Quote
I think my ideal utopian world, though, would have part-time work as well-regarded and appropriately compensated (i.e. not only available for shitty by-the-hour jobs but also for professional work, perhaps as a job share). I think a hardworking, skilled/trained person should be able to support their family (adequate food and shelter, not private school and tropical holidays) on one salary, or on two part-time salaries, and that should be normal and widely available. I think it would be great if everyone could work part-time - I think we'd all be a lot happier. I think it's partly that as a society we teach children to take pride in their career, not to take pride in their family or in doing things for themselves or in their hobbies which don't earn them money. I just wish people could say when they work because they need some time to be an adult rather than a parent and not be accused of basically hating their children, rather than having to pretend it's for other reasons. It would be so nice too if fathers could feel equally free to cut back on their hours or even give up work in order to look after their children without being "less of a man".
My husband told me a couple of weeks ago "I can tell I'm middle aged".  I asked "how".  He said "well, despite getting paid a decent amount, I really don't care to work overtime." (and he works in a rare company that pays engineers by the hour - not 1.5x, but if he works 50 hrs, he gets paid for it.)  So his company is super busy with a lot of contracts right now.  He said "I just want to work my 40 and come home and hang out with my family."
It's funny, where I work, it's the single young people who just want to put in their 40, since they have other things to do, and the income to do it.  The middle aged with families are the ones always volunteering for more hours, as they need more income.

BTDretire

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4418 on: May 11, 2016, 03:22:52 PM »
I used to be OCD like that, and then one day, I just...stopped.  No idea what caused it.  I focus now on making sure I have documentation that I need.  For instance, when I pay something off, I want that receipt.
I learned that lesson 42 years ago. I had taken out a small student loan at the local community college,  it was a minor amount less than $1,000. I had paid it back in full. The receipts, ah, well thrown in a drawer. They came after me asking for payment, I had some receipts but not all. I didn't have the receipt for a $300 payment.
 It was a one on one interview, I insisted I  paid it which I did. A couple weeks later I got a call that the account was closed, she said she found my record of payment in the
next file behind mine. I'll never know for sure if she just believed me or if she truely found the record. I think their system was a bit shoddy.  As was mine, at that time.
Now, I have a file cabinet with folders with many catagories, It is perged at the end of the year and those records are marked with the year and put in a box with previous years.


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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4419 on: May 11, 2016, 09:30:30 PM »
It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Most of that criticism comes from other mothers/women.  Let's face it, (some of) you women tend to be horrific to one another.  Whereas if a man doesn't mow his lawn one week, his man neighbors likely think "great Jim didn't mow his lawn so now it won't look bad if I don't mow mine."

It's true that females are vicious to each other, but the vast majority of the undone housework is not visible outside the home. So that's not where the criticism comes from.

Ever hear a kid whine when dinner isn't ready on time or when they're late to a birthday party? How about a working parent who has an important business meeting that day but whose suit is still at the dry cleaner's, or who has just come back from a long day at work to trip over something left in the living room? That's where most of the pressure comes from, and it's directed at the designated housework-doer.

Sounds awfully specific, like maybe it's specific to your home?  Maybe you should take it up with your family, I thought you were referring to the societal pressures placed on women (mostly by other women) to have a perfect home.

I am referring to the societal pressures: when you're confined to the home, the home IS your society. When it's composed of small humans who need your attention now-now-now, as toddlers do, the work really never is finished but when the rest of the population needs or wants something, where do they go? To the full-time caregiver, not the person who just got home from work. That's generally the woman but it's not a truly gender specific thing.

As to my family, I never married so I don't have anyone making an extra mess in my home. Just one teenaged daughter, and I work full-time so she doesn't expect caregiving as such. But of course I'm the one who gets asked what's for dinner, being the adult and all.
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shelivesthedream

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4420 on: May 12, 2016, 01:09:13 AM »
It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Most of that criticism comes from other mothers/women.  Let's face it, (some of) you women tend to be horrific to one another.  Whereas if a man doesn't mow his lawn one week, his man neighbors likely think "great Jim didn't mow his lawn so now it won't look bad if I don't mow mine."

It's true that females are vicious to each other, but the vast majority of the undone housework is not visible outside the home. So that's not where the criticism comes from.

Ever hear a kid whine when dinner isn't ready on time or when they're late to a birthday party? How about a working parent who has an important business meeting that day but whose suit is still at the dry cleaner's, or who has just come back from a long day at work to trip over something left in the living room? That's where most of the pressure comes from, and it's directed at the designated housework-doer.

Sounds awfully specific, like maybe it's specific to your home?  Maybe you should take it up with your family, I thought you were referring to the societal pressures placed on women (mostly by other women) to have a perfect home.

I am referring to the societal pressures: when you're confined to the home, the home IS your society. When it's composed of small humans who need your attention now-now-now, as toddlers do, the work really never is finished but when the rest of the population needs or wants something, where do they go? To the full-time caregiver, not the person who just got home from work. That's generally the woman but it's not a truly gender specific thing.

As to my family, I never married so I don't have anyone making an extra mess in my home. Just one teenaged daughter, and I work full-time so she doesn't expect caregiving as such. But of course I'm the one who gets asked what's for dinner, being the adult and all.

I didn't mean to start a discussion about who is oppressing or not oppressing women in the home. As much as I occasionally seethe with vengeful rage and wish that "you men" could experience being a woman doing [traditional women's thing I am doing that sucks or traditional men's thing that I am being patronised for] for a day, I don't really want men to have a sucky life just to make women feel better about the sucky bits of their lives. The world wouldn't be better if men felt intense pressure to keep their lawn perfect in case other men judged them as morally bad humans. As my father always used to say, two wrongs don't make a right. We need to take the pressure off women to be perfect, not put it on men.

I don't know where the idea comes from (whether from society, their mother or childhood, other women, family) that women need to be perfect, but I do know that a lot of women feel that not being a good homemaker makes them a morally bad person - "I can't even get my irrational screaming child dressed on time in the morning, let alone bake cupcakes and iron the curtains - I must be such a failure, I bet every other woman in the world has children who literally never cry and spend the whole day skipping around holding hands and then come inside to eat all their dinner without a fuss. What am I doing wrong? It must be because I am a terrible person and ruining my children's lives forever."

It's just that for all the push to get women into the workplace and get rid of the glass ceiling and make us equal in our professional lives, it ain't never gonna happen if men don't correspondingly step up at home. We also need to get rid of the glass... uh... mop! We need to recognise that there is working outside the home (which I think is fairly prestigious) and there is working inside the home (which no one gives a crap about except when dinner is late) and they are both WORK and they are both IMPORTANT and they BOTH need to be shared out fairly. But somehow study after study says that women work full time outside the home and then work way over half time inside the home as well. Why? What are we going to do about it? I think that's one of the big questions of the century.

(My answer, as drop-in-the-ocean as it is, is to bring all my future children up to do the same chores. Every single one of them will get a go at doing every chore, so girls will have to mow the lawn and boys will have to iron. There will be no learned helplessness when it comes to certain chores. As for me and my husband, I foresee that I may well do most of the housework and childcare across our lives, because I currently work part time and don't expect that to increase in the future. However, at the moment it works out well that when he is busy, I do more housework, and when I am busy, he does more housework. But I damn well feel appreciated doing it, and that he recognises that it is an entire job by itself and takes up a lot of time. As someone who is very aware of the history of feminist discourse over the last fifty or so years, I often feel bad that I work less and do more housework, but then I feel bad for feeling bad. Women didn't fight for my right to work, they fought for my right to do whatever the fuck I want, including work. So I'm going to do just that.)

theadvicist

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4421 on: May 12, 2016, 03:36:21 AM »

(My answer, as drop-in-the-ocean as it is, is to bring all my future children up to do the same chores. Every single one of them will get a go at doing every chore, so girls will have to mow the lawn and boys will have to iron. There will be no learned helplessness when it comes to certain chores. As for me and my husband, I foresee that I may well do most of the housework and childcare across our lives, because I currently work part time and don't expect that to increase in the future. However, at the moment it works out well that when he is busy, I do more housework, and when I am busy, he does more housework. But I damn well feel appreciated doing it, and that he recognises that it is an entire job by itself and takes up a lot of time. As someone who is very aware of the history of feminist discourse over the last fifty or so years, I often feel bad that I work less and do more housework, but then I feel bad for feeling bad. Women didn't fight for my right to work, they fought for my right to do whatever the fuck I want, including work. So I'm going to do just that.)

This is great.

My upbringing didn't mean I followed that script though: I had a 'traditional' upbringing in that my father did NOTHING at home, like ever, and my mum did EVERYTHING and WORKED FULL-TIME!

I could see that was illogical because, you know, I have eyes.

When I got married I said, "So you will be creating half the consumption and mess of this household. How would you like to divide it's maintenance?" and we each picked things we like to do, and traded off what we don't. I cook, he cleans etc. The one thing we couldn't agree on was who should change the bed linen, so we do it together, and now it's kind of fun.

Most of my female friends do WAY WAY WAY more than their husbands, and endlessly complain about it. And I'm like, why do you live like that? Of course no-one else is going to do the laundry if all that happens when they don't is... you do it.

So yes to historic inequalities etc, but I actually put a lot of this on women themselves. These are educated, working, young women. Why didn't they have the same conversation? Why did they just start doing everything, whilst also complaining about it? I just don't get it.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4422 on: May 12, 2016, 06:21:00 AM »

(My answer, as drop-in-the-ocean as it is, is to bring all my future children up to do the same chores. Every single one of them will get a go at doing every chore, so girls will have to mow the lawn and boys will have to iron. There will be no learned helplessness when it comes to certain chores. As for me and my husband, I foresee that I may well do most of the housework and childcare across our lives, because I currently work part time and don't expect that to increase in the future. However, at the moment it works out well that when he is busy, I do more housework, and when I am busy, he does more housework. But I damn well feel appreciated doing it, and that he recognises that it is an entire job by itself and takes up a lot of time. As someone who is very aware of the history of feminist discourse over the last fifty or so years, I often feel bad that I work less and do more housework, but then I feel bad for feeling bad. Women didn't fight for my right to work, they fought for my right to do whatever the fuck I want, including work. So I'm going to do just that.)

This is great.

My upbringing didn't mean I followed that script though: I had a 'traditional' upbringing in that my father did NOTHING at home, like ever, and my mum did EVERYTHING and WORKED FULL-TIME!

I could see that was illogical because, you know, I have eyes.

When I got married I said, "So you will be creating half the consumption and mess of this household. How would you like to divide it's maintenance?" and we each picked things we like to do, and traded off what we don't. I cook, he cleans etc. The one thing we couldn't agree on was who should change the bed linen, so we do it together, and now it's kind of fun.

Most of my female friends do WAY WAY WAY more than their husbands, and endlessly complain about it. And I'm like, why do you live like that? Of course no-one else is going to do the laundry if all that happens when they don't is... you do it.

So yes to historic inequalities etc, but I actually put a lot of this on women themselves. These are educated, working, young women. Why didn't they have the same conversation? Why did they just start doing everything, whilst also complaining about it? I just don't get it.

I don't really understand why some people never seem to have 'the conversation', but there is a lot of research to say that both partners in any given relationship always feel like they are doing more housework than they are, so maybe the person who feels like they are doing less is actually doing half? Our 'conversation' when we first started living together ended up with the following rules:
1. We each get to designate one particularly hated chore that is always the other person's job. My job is taking out the bin, his is cleaning the loo. We are allowed to ask the other person to do that job if we think they have not done it.
2. For everything else, if you care that much, do it yourself.

Rule #2 is crucial and avoids the tyranny of one partner imposing their ideas on the other or of dividing up the chores, one partner not doing one of 'their' chores, and the other partner doing it for them because they can't stand it. It also allows for different things being important to us (like if he needs the bathroom to be spotless but I don't care, or if I have to hoover in all the corners but he'd just do the middle of the room). It means he is never allowed to complain that I haven't done something or that I've done it wrong, because if it's that important to him he can put the rubber gloves on and get on with it. It means we sometimes live in squalour when we both feel too busy to do housework but we never have fights about it because the only options are 1. put up with it, or 2. do it. There is no complain or nag option.

I do wonder if this will have to change when we have children, because we'll need to be more organised about making sure everything gets done in a timely way. I'm not sure. I think we might have to be firmer about doing laundry before we run out of clothes or doing dishes before we realise there is nothing to eat off, but maybe the rest can stay as it is.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4423 on: May 12, 2016, 06:31:20 AM »

When I got married I said, "So you will be creating half the consumption and mess of this household. How would you like to divide it's maintenance?" and we each picked things we like to do, and traded off what we don't. I cook, he cleans etc. The one thing we couldn't agree on was who should change the bed linen, so we do it together, and now it's kind of fun.

Most of my female friends do WAY WAY WAY more than their husbands, and endlessly complain about it. And I'm like, why do you live like that? Of course no-one else is going to do the laundry if all that happens when they don't is... you do it.

So yes to historic inequalities etc, but I actually put a lot of this on women themselves. These are educated, working, young women. Why didn't they have the same conversation? Why did they just start doing everything, whilst also complaining about it? I just don't get it.

I totally get this logic, and we had this discussion during marriage prep counseling. We sat down with a list of chores and said who would like to do which chores (down to the detailed level of "who will shop for family Christmas gifts"). In a perfect world it would follow your logic where we each clean up a somewhat equal portion of the messes we create (i.e. wash your own dishes, fold your own laundry). In real life, we have a big ass yard that needs mowing, so my husband spends a lot of his chore time maintaining stupid stupid stupid lawn that just keeps growing even though we never water it! If we didn't have the yardwork tipping the scales in his direction, our interior chore division would be straight up 50/50 because he's a great partner. Stupid lawn.
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Kitsune

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4424 on: May 12, 2016, 06:59:51 AM »
I do wonder if this will have to change when we have children, because we'll need to be more organised about making sure everything gets done in a timely way. I'm not sure. I think we might have to be firmer about doing laundry before we run out of clothes or doing dishes before we realise there is nothing to eat off, but maybe the rest can stay as it is.

Your 'if you care so much, you do it' rule was a problem for us... and then we had children, and it was flat-out unsustainable.

My husband DIDN'T care about the state of the floor, the state of the bathtub, and the tidying, and just wanted to play video games. BUT, if you have a learning-to-crawl child in the picture: they are taking a bath (as opposed to a shower) so a non-scuzzy tub is a plus. If they throw meat off their tray at dinnertime and you don't clean the floor, they WILL find it and eat it 24 hours later (eewwwww). If there's stuff everywhere, they don't SEE their toys, and either destroy everything or become kinda frazzled and harder to deal with because there's too much going on. Like, if it was just me occasionally wanting a bath or clean floors, fine, I'd do them every so often... but it kind of affects an innocent third party too, so get off your tush and help, y'know?

In our case: I'm not a neat-freak, but I'm pretty sure floors should be cleaned before cat hair starts rolling down the hallway in clumps, that the bathtub needs a quick scrub before there are visible rings around it, etc. Functionally, this means that I/we do dishes every night and run the dishwasher, put away our things daily, vacuum the floors 1-2x/week depending on season (kids+mud...), wash the floors and bathroom and everything else maybe every 2 weeks, and do the dusting... erm... every month or two, maybe, when we get around to it. Maybe. Not a huge amount of cleaning, overall, but when it doesn't get done the place gets nasty, and you can't live in a small space and not put things away. We'd fight about that every so often (pattern: I'd do it all. I'd pitch a fit. He'd do 50% for a few weeks. And then it'd start slipping, and slipping, and then 3 months later I'd do it all and pitch a fit, repeat).

What stopped it was when I realized that I was working 50-hour weeks, doing a good 80% of the childcare, running ALL the errands, doing ALL the cleaning, and cooking ALL the food. While he worked 35 hours/week from home. I, erm... lost it. And basically said that this was it, that the pattern was breaking, and that we were FIXING THIS or I was LEAVING, and I MEANT IT (and I meant it. I'd visited apartments, I meant it so bad. It wasn't an aimless threat, it was a 'I am letting you know that this is unsustainable for me; we can fix the situation or I can remove myself from it, your choice'). That was over a year ago.

There's been occasional backsliding, with apologies and acknowledgement, and the housework, outdoor work, and childcare is actually now split in a way that gives us equal free time, which is really all I was asking for. The house is never neat and 'perfect', but it's livable and good, and that's all I'm asking for too. But the fact that it took me hitting the wall and promising I'd leave... honestly, I'm still frustrated that it took that much.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4425 on: May 12, 2016, 07:16:51 AM »
the housework, outdoor work, and childcare is actually now split in a way that gives us equal free time, which is really all I was asking for.

Oh my god. I'm using this next time we have to have a sit down about chores. I never thought about it that way but that's exactly what I'm looking for every time we have this conversation.

YES! And this also assumes that if I'm suddenly working 20 hours/week while he works 50, then OBVIOUSLY I'm doing more housework. But seeing him at the computer playing video games while I'm taking care of a child AND tidying AND throwing together dinner, all at the same time? Watch steam come out my ears (and then very calm words about how this is unacceptable, and shape up, come out my mouth).

theadvicist

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4426 on: May 12, 2016, 07:16:55 AM »

When I got married I said, "So you will be creating half the consumption and mess of this household. How would you like to divide it's maintenance?" and we each picked things we like to do, and traded off what we don't. I cook, he cleans etc. The one thing we couldn't agree on was who should change the bed linen, so we do it together, and now it's kind of fun.

Most of my female friends do WAY WAY WAY more than their husbands, and endlessly complain about it. And I'm like, why do you live like that? Of course no-one else is going to do the laundry if all that happens when they don't is... you do it.

So yes to historic inequalities etc, but I actually put a lot of this on women themselves. These are educated, working, young women. Why didn't they have the same conversation? Why did they just start doing everything, whilst also complaining about it? I just don't get it.

I totally get this logic, and we had this discussion during marriage prep counseling. We sat down with a list of chores and said who would like to do which chores (down to the detailed level of "who will shop for family Christmas gifts"). In a perfect world it would follow your logic where we each clean up a somewhat equal portion of the messes we create (i.e. wash your own dishes, fold your own laundry). In real life, we have a big ass yard that needs mowing, so my husband spends a lot of his chore time maintaining stupid stupid stupid lawn that just keeps growing even though we never water it! If we didn't have the yardwork tipping the scales in his direction, our interior chore division would be straight up 50/50 because he's a great partner. Stupid lawn.

Sorry, that wasn't my logic at all. When I said, "how would you divide it's maintenance" I was working on the principle that by creating half of the mess and consumption we were each responsible for half it's maintenance, but actually, our split sounds quite like yours. It's not you clean up your mess, I'll clean up mine, it's: I'll do all the cooking because I enjoy it. Therefore I'll do all the food shopping because I'll know what we need. He does all cleaning. Everything. He also washes both our cars. I do all laundry. We have a ridiculous level of detail too eg. he organises all transportation at home (train tickets, taxis etc) I do all international travel (hotels etc).

I sometimes feel like Leonard and Sheldon in the Big Bang Theory with their room mate agreement, but honestly, although it sounds kind of mean-spirited to split everything so exactly, actually, it means we have zero arguments, and certainly far less resentment than most other couples I know. We each know what we have to do, and we get on with it.

And we're not massively strict about things - he'll cook dinner if I'm feeling rough, I'll wipe down the bathroom if we've got company and I know he hasn't had time.

Also, his father once said, "Who cleans your windows?!" clearly implying no-one did. I said, "your son, but if you don't think he's doing a good job, there's a rag under the sink!". Yeah, he doesn't comment on our house anymore.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4427 on: May 12, 2016, 07:16:56 AM »
big Facebook debate here over night, our property values are increasing exponentially, so our property taxes are increasing as well. but taxes are capped at 10% growth per year, and values are going faster than that. And everyone is furious. It's simple math. my house is up like 20k and it's going to cost me $500 this year. I would do unforgivable things to get that rate of return with any of my other investments.

I am also in PA and received an assessment hearing notice stating that the school board is appealing my assessment as my purchase price in January 2015 was 30% higher than the previous county assessment.  This will surely raise my taxes ~30% as well.  I can cover it and try to look at the positives (it's another tax deduction and it's actual fair since that's the true property value) but I'm sure others would be in trouble, especially if they just recently bought the home with payments at the top of their budget. 

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4428 on: May 12, 2016, 07:25:32 AM »
Also, his father once said, "Who cleans your windows?!" clearly implying no-one did. I said, "your son, but if you don't think he's doing a good job, there's a rag under the sink!". Yeah, he doesn't comment on our house anymore.

I'm saving this to use on my in-laws.

They've recently been making snarky comments because we hired a cleaning person (who comes for a half-day every 2 weeks for a total monthly cost of about 130$CAD). Reason: I have started working more hours at my job, taking away from the available household maintenance hours, and so, after paying the cleaning person, we are making 563$ MORE per month than we were before. This is a sensible expense, yo. Plus I'd rather work my job than clean my house, and if I'm gonna make more money doing something I prefer doing, then, hey! :) (Also, this gives us the weekend time to a) spend time with our daughter, and b) do the deck-building, barn-building, tree-planting, etc - things that would cost 20-60$/hour to hire out, as opposed to 15$/hour for the cleaner. THIS IS A SENSIBLE TIME/MONEY ALLOCATION, and it leaves us with the most money and the most done by the end of summer.

My in-laws are pulling the 'but cleaning people are so expensive' and 'only RICH people hire people to clean their houses, who do you think you are'. And I'm steaming mad that they pull this stuff when we invite them over for dinner. Like, you're a guest in our home. Appreciate what's offered, say thank you, and cut the fucking judgement, or get the fuck out and go bitch about us ELSEWHERE.

I am... very frustrated with them right now.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4429 on: May 12, 2016, 07:31:03 AM »
I have 2 new ones:

1.  Is a single dad who lives in a 1 bedroom apartment with his kid.  He was planning to move into a 2 bedroom to give them more space, but decided to use that money to buy a second car in case his first one breaks down.  His first one is a 2010 BMW paid for with cash.  He plans to buy the second one with cash too.  His reasoning is since he is not planning on financing it is a good financial move.

2.  Family of 4 with 1 spouse as the bread winner and 1 spouse who does not work.  Working spouse makes a decent income (approx $75k) They pay on average of $1500 a month for full daycare because non-working spouse "can't get anything done with the kids at home".  The family has more than $40k in credit card debt and probably $30k in car loans, they are currently on an IRS payment plan because they didn't realize an employer (2 jobs ago) wasn't taking out taxes. 

They are in the process of buying/building a $350k home in a medium cost of living area.  The reason they are buying this new home is because their current 2500 sq ft home doesn't fit all their stuff (they have a storage unit) and they can't afford rent on a house that would fit all their stuff "because the landlords expect us to pay their management fees".  They said the new house will only be about $100-$200 more than their current rent.  Which I guess isn't bad except their current rent eats 42% of their monthly income (not counting utilities).  They also constantly complain about relatives who try to hit them up for money and can't understand why everyone thinks they are "rich". 


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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4430 on: May 12, 2016, 07:39:25 AM »
Also, his father once said, "Who cleans your windows?!" clearly implying no-one did. I said, "your son, but if you don't think he's doing a good job, there's a rag under the sink!". Yeah, he doesn't comment on our house anymore.

I'm saving this to use on my in-laws.

They've recently been making snarky comments because we hired a cleaning person (who comes for a half-day every 2 weeks for a total monthly cost of about 130$CAD). Reason: I have started working more hours at my job, taking away from the available household maintenance hours, and so, after paying the cleaning person, we are making 563$ MORE per month than we were before. This is a sensible expense, yo. Plus I'd rather work my job than clean my house, and if I'm gonna make more money doing something I prefer doing, then, hey! :) (Also, this gives us the weekend time to a) spend time with our daughter, and b) do the deck-building, barn-building, tree-planting, etc - things that would cost 20-60$/hour to hire out, as opposed to 15$/hour for the cleaner. THIS IS A SENSIBLE TIME/MONEY ALLOCATION, and it leaves us with the most money and the most done by the end of summer.

My in-laws are pulling the 'but cleaning people are so expensive' and 'only RICH people hire people to clean their houses, who do you think you are'. And I'm steaming mad that they pull this stuff when we invite them over for dinner. Like, you're a guest in our home. Appreciate what's offered, say thank you, and cut the fucking judgement, or get the fuck out and go bitch about us ELSEWHERE.

I am... very frustrated with them right now.

I hate that everyone thinks if you hire someone to clean inside your house (traditionally female work), you are lazy and entitled and rich.  if you hire someone to landscape, fix your car, build a deck or wash your car (traditionally male work), you're golden!

I don't hire anyone, but will happily hire someone if it makes sense.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4431 on: May 12, 2016, 07:52:50 AM »
I have 2 new ones:

1.  Is a single dad who lives in a 1 bedroom apartment with his kid.  He was planning to move into a 2 bedroom to give them more space, but decided to use that money to buy a second car in case his first one breaks down.  His first one is a 2010 BMW paid for with cash.  He plans to buy the second one with cash too.  His reasoning is since he is not planning on financing it is a good financial move.

2.  Family of 4 with 1 spouse as the bread winner and 1 spouse who does not work.  Working spouse makes a decent income (approx $75k) They pay on average of $1500 a month for full daycare because non-working spouse "can't get anything done with the kids at home".  The family has more than $40k in credit card debt and probably $30k in car loans, they are currently on an IRS payment plan because they didn't realize an employer (2 jobs ago) wasn't taking out taxes. 

They are in the process of buying/building a $350k home in a medium cost of living area.  The reason they are buying this new home is because their current 2500 sq ft home doesn't fit all their stuff (they have a storage unit) and they can't afford rent on a house that would fit all their stuff "because the landlords expect us to pay their management fees".  They said the new house will only be about $100-$200 more than their current rent.  Which I guess isn't bad except their current rent eats 42% of their monthly income (not counting utilities).  They also constantly complain about relatives who try to hit them up for money and can't understand why everyone thinks they are "rich".
It's like flooring the pedal with no hands on the steering wheel and then bitching about how your car keeps getting dinged up. People who think/act this way are the reason MMM exists.
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MrsDinero

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4432 on: May 12, 2016, 08:13:59 AM »
I have 2 new ones:

1.  Is a single dad who lives in a 1 bedroom apartment with his kid.  He was planning to move into a 2 bedroom to give them more space, but decided to use that money to buy a second car in case his first one breaks down.  His first one is a 2010 BMW paid for with cash.  He plans to buy the second one with cash too.  His reasoning is since he is not planning on financing it is a good financial move.

2.  Family of 4 with 1 spouse as the bread winner and 1 spouse who does not work.  Working spouse makes a decent income (approx $75k) They pay on average of $1500 a month for full daycare because non-working spouse "can't get anything done with the kids at home".  The family has more than $40k in credit card debt and probably $30k in car loans, they are currently on an IRS payment plan because they didn't realize an employer (2 jobs ago) wasn't taking out taxes. 

They are in the process of buying/building a $350k home in a medium cost of living area.  The reason they are buying this new home is because their current 2500 sq ft home doesn't fit all their stuff (they have a storage unit) and they can't afford rent on a house that would fit all their stuff "because the landlords expect us to pay their management fees".  They said the new house will only be about $100-$200 more than their current rent.  Which I guess isn't bad except their current rent eats 42% of their monthly income (not counting utilities).  They also constantly complain about relatives who try to hit them up for money and can't understand why everyone thinks they are "rich".
It's like flooring the pedal with no hands on the steering wheel and then bitching about how your car keeps getting dinged up. People who think/act this way are the reason MMM exists.
I'm working on trying to not feel frustrated by what I see as repeated bad financial moves, but it is hard because these are people I care about and want nothing more than to see them succeed in life. 

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4433 on: May 12, 2016, 11:23:41 AM »
It would also be great if fathers received some of the pressure, negative feedback, and criticism that mothers do if for some reason work around the house or yard hasn't been done.

Most of that criticism comes from other mothers/women.  Let's face it, (some of) you women tend to be horrific to one another.  Whereas if a man doesn't mow his lawn one week, his man neighbors likely think "great Jim didn't mow his lawn so now it won't look bad if I don't mow mine."
\

i wonder who started the women are so mean to each other myth.

no woman has ever told me, upon meeting, that i should hurry up and have kids before my uterus falls out.
I have to admit, I don't think I've personally experienced that kind of criticism either.  Oh, long ago, my mom complained about my messy apartment. But I was single.  And messy.

I don't feel pressure from my friends to have a clean house or yard. 

What I do feel is pressure at work.  For some reason, if I take a  morning off to do something with the kids, it's noticed more than if my boss does it.

mm1970

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4434 on: May 12, 2016, 11:27:47 AM »

(My answer, as drop-in-the-ocean as it is, is to bring all my future children up to do the same chores. Every single one of them will get a go at doing every chore, so girls will have to mow the lawn and boys will have to iron. There will be no learned helplessness when it comes to certain chores. As for me and my husband, I foresee that I may well do most of the housework and childcare across our lives, because I currently work part time and don't expect that to increase in the future. However, at the moment it works out well that when he is busy, I do more housework, and when I am busy, he does more housework. But I damn well feel appreciated doing it, and that he recognises that it is an entire job by itself and takes up a lot of time. As someone who is very aware of the history of feminist discourse over the last fifty or so years, I often feel bad that I work less and do more housework, but then I feel bad for feeling bad. Women didn't fight for my right to work, they fought for my right to do whatever the fuck I want, including work. So I'm going to do just that.)

This is great.

My upbringing didn't mean I followed that script though: I had a 'traditional' upbringing in that my father did NOTHING at home, like ever, and my mum did EVERYTHING and WORKED FULL-TIME!

I could see that was illogical because, you know, I have eyes.

When I got married I said, "So you will be creating half the consumption and mess of this household. How would you like to divide it's maintenance?" and we each picked things we like to do, and traded off what we don't. I cook, he cleans etc. The one thing we couldn't agree on was who should change the bed linen, so we do it together, and now it's kind of fun.

Most of my female friends do WAY WAY WAY more than their husbands, and endlessly complain about it. And I'm like, why do you live like that? Of course no-one else is going to do the laundry if all that happens when they don't is... you do it.

So yes to historic inequalities etc, but I actually put a lot of this on women themselves. These are educated, working, young women. Why didn't they have the same conversation? Why did they just start doing everything, whilst also complaining about it? I just don't get it.
My husband, you know, was a single guy who lived alone for 6 years before we married.

When we finally lived together, a couple of my girlfriends asked how I got him to do laundry.  My funny answer is: "I own more underwear".  (Which was true, he'd run out first!)  But really...the guy knows how to run a washing machine, and has since he was 18.

mm1970

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4435 on: May 12, 2016, 11:42:50 AM »
Quote
1. We each get to designate one particularly hated chore that is always the other person's job. My job is taking out the bin, his is cleaning the loo. We are allowed to ask the other person to do that job if we think they have not done it.
2. For everything else, if you care that much, do it yourself.

Rule #2 is crucial and avoids the tyranny of one partner imposing their ideas on the other or of dividing up the chores, one partner not doing one of 'their' chores, and the other partner doing it for them because they can't stand it. It also allows for different things being important to us (like if he needs the bathroom to be spotless but I don't care, or if I have to hoover in all the corners but he'd just do the middle of the room). It means he is never allowed to complain that I haven't done something or that I've done it wrong, because if it's that important to him he can put the rubber gloves on and get on with it. It means we sometimes live in squalour when we both feel too busy to do housework but we never have fights about it because the only options are 1. put up with it, or 2. do it. There is no complain or nag option.

I do wonder if this will have to change when we have children, because we'll need to be more organised about making sure everything gets done in a timely way. I'm not sure. I think we might have to be firmer about doing laundry before we run out of clothes or doing dishes before we realise there is nothing to eat off, but maybe the rest can stay as it is

Kitsune put it very well in her followup posts, so I don't have too much to add!

For our #2, our rule was only that you cannot complain about how someone else did it.  You *can* complain if they didn't do it at all.  So, for example, if I do the dishes, I don't want my husband complaining that I didn't do ALL the dishes.  I loaded the dishwasher, filled the sink, and did as many dishes as (1) filled the drainer and (2) made the dishwater scuzzy.

But Kitsune's point about cleanliness with kids is spot on. I've found that my standards have gone up a bit, and I have two boys now.  I get extremely frustrated at the amount of crap that people leave sitting around. And I *hate* working on cooking dinner and then tell people it's ready and THEN have them realize that the entire fucking kitchen table is full of CRAP.  We've started docking our child allowance if he leaves things on the floor, and I will occasionally take toys and put them "away" to be donated to charity.

The point someone else made about "having equal free time" is really all I want too.  I get tired of picking things up, and doing dishes, and cooking, if my husband is sitting playing on his phone (if he's playing with the kids, fine).  I spend so much time cooking and doing dishes on the weekend (because I do a lot of meal prep).  The worst is to go in to start cooking, then realize that spouse never did last night's dishes because he was "too tired".  So, first I get to put away yesterday's lunch dishes in the drainer. THEN I get to do last night's dinner dishes, THEN I have to fucking start cooking.  About 5 minutes in, "Can I help?"   How about you just DO IT.

So we have the best harmony when we are working at the same time.  It doesn't (and can't) always work that way. So if he's bathing the toddler, I'm usually doing the dishes.  We take turns with the breakfast dishes.  He's the laundry guy, I'm the cook, and we usually are alternating on the time of day that those happen so we can play with the kids.

The other hard part (and I have no solution), is lack of down time.  Due to my younger child's extreme stubbornness, he just fucking won't go to sleep until 9:30 pm, because he naps at daycare (I'm counting the days until preschool). So, I am asleep before he is every night except weekends.  So.  I don't get any quiet time to just veg out, crochet, talk to my husband.  Like, ever.  My husband doesn't go to bed until 10:30 or 11:30 pm.  So he gets quiet time every night.  But he sleeps less.   I have many friends who tout the importance of early bedtimes, like 7:30 pm.  Every single one of them is a SAHM.  Good luck getting your kids to sleep at 7:30 pm if you don't even get home with them until 5:30 pm, and if the spouse doesn't get home until 6:30 pm.

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4436 on: May 12, 2016, 12:49:13 PM »
Also, his father once said, "Who cleans your windows?!" clearly implying no-one did. I said, "your son, but if you don't think he's doing a good job, there's a rag under the sink!". Yeah, he doesn't comment on our house anymore.

I'm saving this to use on my in-laws.

They've recently been making snarky comments because we hired a cleaning person (who comes for a half-day every 2 weeks for a total monthly cost of about 130$CAD). Reason: I have started working more hours at my job, taking away from the available household maintenance hours, and so, after paying the cleaning person, we are making 563$ MORE per month than we were before. This is a sensible expense, yo. Plus I'd rather work my job than clean my house, and if I'm gonna make more money doing something I prefer doing, then, hey! :) (Also, this gives us the weekend time to a) spend time with our daughter, and b) do the deck-building, barn-building, tree-planting, etc - things that would cost 20-60$/hour to hire out, as opposed to 15$/hour for the cleaner. THIS IS A SENSIBLE TIME/MONEY ALLOCATION, and it leaves us with the most money and the most done by the end of summer.

My in-laws are pulling the 'but cleaning people are so expensive' and 'only RICH people hire people to clean their houses, who do you think you are'. And I'm steaming mad that they pull this stuff when we invite them over for dinner. Like, you're a guest in our home. Appreciate what's offered, say thank you, and cut the fucking judgement, or get the fuck out and go bitch about us ELSEWHERE.

I am... very frustrated with them right now.

I hate that everyone thinks if you hire someone to clean inside your house (traditionally female work), you are lazy and entitled and rich.  if you hire someone to landscape, fix your car, build a deck or wash your car (traditionally male work), you're golden!

I don't hire anyone, but will happily hire someone if it makes sense.

In my mind, it has nothing to do with traditional gender roles.  It has to do with the training, tools, and/or danger involved in the activity.  It seems those factors just seem to like up with traditional gender roles (coincidence?):

Cleaning house: seriously anyone can do this themselves.  It requires no special tools or knowledge, just willingness to work

Landscaping: simple stuff you can do yourself but a lot of landscaping requires heavy or sharp equipment.  If you are tree climbing and wood chipping it can be very dangerous

Fix your car: often needs special tools, knowledge, and sometimes dangerous

Build a deck: needs special tools, some knowledge, moderately dangerous

Washing cars: ok that's really easy


BTW, my point isn't to quibble about the exact level of knowledge/tools/danger involved in the above activities.  But If I have to choose an activity to outsource, I sure as heck would rather pay someone to replace my roof than wash my floors.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 12:52:28 PM by dragoncar »

Kitsune

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4437 on: May 12, 2016, 01:15:01 PM »
Also, his father once said, "Who cleans your windows?!" clearly implying no-one did. I said, "your son, but if you don't think he's doing a good job, there's a rag under the sink!". Yeah, he doesn't comment on our house anymore.

I'm saving this to use on my in-laws.

They've recently been making snarky comments because we hired a cleaning person (who comes for a half-day every 2 weeks for a total monthly cost of about 130$CAD). Reason: I have started working more hours at my job, taking away from the available household maintenance hours, and so, after paying the cleaning person, we are making 563$ MORE per month than we were before. This is a sensible expense, yo. Plus I'd rather work my job than clean my house, and if I'm gonna make more money doing something I prefer doing, then, hey! :) (Also, this gives us the weekend time to a) spend time with our daughter, and b) do the deck-building, barn-building, tree-planting, etc - things that would cost 20-60$/hour to hire out, as opposed to 15$/hour for the cleaner. THIS IS A SENSIBLE TIME/MONEY ALLOCATION, and it leaves us with the most money and the most done by the end of summer.

My in-laws are pulling the 'but cleaning people are so expensive' and 'only RICH people hire people to clean their houses, who do you think you are'. And I'm steaming mad that they pull this stuff when we invite them over for dinner. Like, you're a guest in our home. Appreciate what's offered, say thank you, and cut the fucking judgement, or get the fuck out and go bitch about us ELSEWHERE.

I am... very frustrated with them right now.

I hate that everyone thinks if you hire someone to clean inside your house (traditionally female work), you are lazy and entitled and rich.  if you hire someone to landscape, fix your car, build a deck or wash your car (traditionally male work), you're golden!

I don't hire anyone, but will happily hire someone if it makes sense.

In my mind, it has nothing to do with traditional gender roles.  It has to do with the training, tools, and/or danger involved in the activity.  It seems those factors just seem to like up with traditional gender roles (coincidence?):

Cleaning house: seriously anyone can do this themselves.  It requires no special tools or knowledge, just willingness to work

Landscaping: simple stuff you can do yourself but a lot of landscaping requires heavy or sharp equipment.  If you are tree climbing and wood chipping it can be very dangerous

Fix your car: often needs special tools, knowledge, and sometimes dangerous

Build a deck: needs special tools, some knowledge, moderately dangerous

Washing cars: ok that's really easy


BTW, my point isn't to quibble about the exact level of knowledge/tools/danger involved in the above activities.  But If I have to choose an activity to outsource, I sure as heck would rather pay someone to replace my roof than wash my floors.

Yeah, but in our case, the deck would cost an extra 10K as compared to the housecleaning.

I'd rather build the deck (with my husband and FIL, both of who have construction experience), pay for the housecleaning, and pocket the leftover 10K. All things being equal.

Chris22

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4438 on: May 12, 2016, 01:20:35 PM »
Also, his father once said, "Who cleans your windows?!" clearly implying no-one did. I said, "your son, but if you don't think he's doing a good job, there's a rag under the sink!". Yeah, he doesn't comment on our house anymore.

I'm saving this to use on my in-laws.

They've recently been making snarky comments because we hired a cleaning person (who comes for a half-day every 2 weeks for a total monthly cost of about 130$CAD). Reason: I have started working more hours at my job, taking away from the available household maintenance hours, and so, after paying the cleaning person, we are making 563$ MORE per month than we were before. This is a sensible expense, yo. Plus I'd rather work my job than clean my house, and if I'm gonna make more money doing something I prefer doing, then, hey! :) (Also, this gives us the weekend time to a) spend time with our daughter, and b) do the deck-building, barn-building, tree-planting, etc - things that would cost 20-60$/hour to hire out, as opposed to 15$/hour for the cleaner. THIS IS A SENSIBLE TIME/MONEY ALLOCATION, and it leaves us with the most money and the most done by the end of summer.

My in-laws are pulling the 'but cleaning people are so expensive' and 'only RICH people hire people to clean their houses, who do you think you are'. And I'm steaming mad that they pull this stuff when we invite them over for dinner. Like, you're a guest in our home. Appreciate what's offered, say thank you, and cut the fucking judgement, or get the fuck out and go bitch about us ELSEWHERE.

I am... very frustrated with them right now.

I hate that everyone thinks if you hire someone to clean inside your house (traditionally female work), you are lazy and entitled and rich.  if you hire someone to landscape, fix your car, build a deck or wash your car (traditionally male work), you're golden!

I don't hire anyone, but will happily hire someone if it makes sense.

In my mind, it has nothing to do with traditional gender roles.  It has to do with the training, tools, and/or danger involved in the activity.  It seems those factors just seem to like up with traditional gender roles (coincidence?):

Cleaning house: seriously anyone can do this themselves.  It requires no special tools or knowledge, just willingness to work

Landscaping: simple stuff you can do yourself but a lot of landscaping requires heavy or sharp equipment.  If you are tree climbing and wood chipping it can be very dangerous

Fix your car: often needs special tools, knowledge, and sometimes dangerous

Build a deck: needs special tools, some knowledge, moderately dangerous

Washing cars: ok that's really easy


BTW, my point isn't to quibble about the exact level of knowledge/tools/danger involved in the above activities.  But If I have to choose an activity to outsource, I sure as heck would rather pay someone to replace my roof than wash my floors.

Yeah, but in our case, the deck would cost an extra 10K as compared to the housecleaning.

I'd rather build the deck (with my husband and FIL, both of who have construction experience), pay for the housecleaning, and pocket the leftover 10K. All things being equal.

Exactly.  I pay someone to clean my house.  $150/mo.  I am refinishing my own basement.  Probably save myself $20k all-in.  That's 11 years of the cleaning lady.  And the basement work is interesting, physical, and fun (compared to my day job of making spreadsheets) and won't last forever.  The cleaning is tedious, mind-numbing, and repetitive. 
"If I could get all the money back I ever spent on cars, I'd spend it on cars." - Nick Mason

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4439 on: May 12, 2016, 01:48:53 PM »
Also, his father once said, "Who cleans your windows?!" clearly implying no-one did. I said, "your son, but if you don't think he's doing a good job, there's a rag under the sink!". Yeah, he doesn't comment on our house anymore.

I'm saving this to use on my in-laws.

They've recently been making snarky comments because we hired a cleaning person (who comes for a half-day every 2 weeks for a total monthly cost of about 130$CAD). Reason: I have started working more hours at my job, taking away from the available household maintenance hours, and so, after paying the cleaning person, we are making 563$ MORE per month than we were before. This is a sensible expense, yo. Plus I'd rather work my job than clean my house, and if I'm gonna make more money doing something I prefer doing, then, hey! :) (Also, this gives us the weekend time to a) spend time with our daughter, and b) do the deck-building, barn-building, tree-planting, etc - things that would cost 20-60$/hour to hire out, as opposed to 15$/hour for the cleaner. THIS IS A SENSIBLE TIME/MONEY ALLOCATION, and it leaves us with the most money and the most done by the end of summer.

My in-laws are pulling the 'but cleaning people are so expensive' and 'only RICH people hire people to clean their houses, who do you think you are'. And I'm steaming mad that they pull this stuff when we invite them over for dinner. Like, you're a guest in our home. Appreciate what's offered, say thank you, and cut the fucking judgement, or get the fuck out and go bitch about us ELSEWHERE.

I am... very frustrated with them right now.

I hate that everyone thinks if you hire someone to clean inside your house (traditionally female work), you are lazy and entitled and rich.  if you hire someone to landscape, fix your car, build a deck or wash your car (traditionally male work), you're golden!

I don't hire anyone, but will happily hire someone if it makes sense.

In my mind, it has nothing to do with traditional gender roles.  It has to do with the training, tools, and/or danger involved in the activity.  It seems those factors just seem to like up with traditional gender roles (coincidence?):

Cleaning house: seriously anyone can do this themselves.  It requires no special tools or knowledge, just willingness to work

Landscaping: simple stuff you can do yourself but a lot of landscaping requires heavy or sharp equipment.  If you are tree climbing and wood chipping it can be very dangerous

Fix your car: often needs special tools, knowledge, and sometimes dangerous

Build a deck: needs special tools, some knowledge, moderately dangerous

Washing cars: ok that's really easy


BTW, my point isn't to quibble about the exact level of knowledge/tools/danger involved in the above activities.  But If I have to choose an activity to outsource, I sure as heck would rather pay someone to replace my roof than wash my floors.

Yeah, but in our case, the deck would cost an extra 10K as compared to the housecleaning.

I'd rather build the deck (with my husband and FIL, both of who have construction experience), pay for the housecleaning, and pocket the leftover 10K. All things being equal.

Exactly.  I pay someone to clean my house.  $150/mo.  I am refinishing my own basement.  Probably save myself $20k all-in.  That's 11 years of the cleaning lady.  And the basement work is interesting, physical, and fun (compared to my day job of making spreadsheets) and won't last forever.  The cleaning is tedious, mind-numbing, and repetitive.

So unless you replace your deck/basement every 11 years you come out ahead doing your own cleaning but outsourcing the construction.  RIGHHHT?

Chris22

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4440 on: May 12, 2016, 02:16:18 PM »
Also, his father once said, "Who cleans your windows?!" clearly implying no-one did. I said, "your son, but if you don't think he's doing a good job, there's a rag under the sink!". Yeah, he doesn't comment on our house anymore.

I'm saving this to use on my in-laws.

They've recently been making snarky comments because we hired a cleaning person (who comes for a half-day every 2 weeks for a total monthly cost of about 130$CAD). Reason: I have started working more hours at my job, taking away from the available household maintenance hours, and so, after paying the cleaning person, we are making 563$ MORE per month than we were before. This is a sensible expense, yo. Plus I'd rather work my job than clean my house, and if I'm gonna make more money doing something I prefer doing, then, hey! :) (Also, this gives us the weekend time to a) spend time with our daughter, and b) do the deck-building, barn-building, tree-planting, etc - things that would cost 20-60$/hour to hire out, as opposed to 15$/hour for the cleaner. THIS IS A SENSIBLE TIME/MONEY ALLOCATION, and it leaves us with the most money and the most done by the end of summer.

My in-laws are pulling the 'but cleaning people are so expensive' and 'only RICH people hire people to clean their houses, who do you think you are'. And I'm steaming mad that they pull this stuff when we invite them over for dinner. Like, you're a guest in our home. Appreciate what's offered, say thank you, and cut the fucking judgement, or get the fuck out and go bitch about us ELSEWHERE.

I am... very frustrated with them right now.

I hate that everyone thinks if you hire someone to clean inside your house (traditionally female work), you are lazy and entitled and rich.  if you hire someone to landscape, fix your car, build a deck or wash your car (traditionally male work), you're golden!

I don't hire anyone, but will happily hire someone if it makes sense.

In my mind, it has nothing to do with traditional gender roles.  It has to do with the training, tools, and/or danger involved in the activity.  It seems those factors just seem to like up with traditional gender roles (coincidence?):

Cleaning house: seriously anyone can do this themselves.  It requires no special tools or knowledge, just willingness to work

Landscaping: simple stuff you can do yourself but a lot of landscaping requires heavy or sharp equipment.  If you are tree climbing and wood chipping it can be very dangerous

Fix your car: often needs special tools, knowledge, and sometimes dangerous

Build a deck: needs special tools, some knowledge, moderately dangerous

Washing cars: ok that's really easy


BTW, my point isn't to quibble about the exact level of knowledge/tools/danger involved in the above activities.  But If I have to choose an activity to outsource, I sure as heck would rather pay someone to replace my roof than wash my floors.

Yeah, but in our case, the deck would cost an extra 10K as compared to the housecleaning.

I'd rather build the deck (with my husband and FIL, both of who have construction experience), pay for the housecleaning, and pocket the leftover 10K. All things being equal.

Exactly.  I pay someone to clean my house.  $150/mo.  I am refinishing my own basement.  Probably save myself $20k all-in.  That's 11 years of the cleaning lady.  And the basement work is interesting, physical, and fun (compared to my day job of making spreadsheets) and won't last forever.  The cleaning is tedious, mind-numbing, and repetitive.

So unless you replace your deck/basement every 11 years you come out ahead doing your own cleaning but outsourcing the construction.  RIGHHHT?

That's a time horizon I'm comfortable eating.  Besides, now it's the basement, later it's the landscaping, then it's redoing all the trim in the house and on and on.  Basically, cleaning sucks, and other construction projects are fun and interesting. 
"If I could get all the money back I ever spent on cars, I'd spend it on cars." - Nick Mason

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4441 on: May 12, 2016, 02:49:22 PM »
I hate that everyone thinks if you hire someone to clean inside your house (traditionally female work), you are lazy and entitled and rich.  if you hire someone to landscape, fix your car, build a deck or wash your car (traditionally male work), you're golden!

Personally every time somebody does a case study with "lawn guy" or "landscaper" on there I post that if you can't do your yard yourself, you have too much yard. I think hiring a cleaning person is a lot more reasonable - you gotta live somewhere - than hiring somebody to maintain something completely optional (the yard).

(don't get me wrong, if I needed a tree taken down, I'd hire somebody who knew what he was doing. But I don't actually have any trees, just a few hanging over my yard from the neighbors.)

dragoncar

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4442 on: May 12, 2016, 05:15:06 PM »
I hate that everyone thinks if you hire someone to clean inside your house (traditionally female work), you are lazy and entitled and rich.  if you hire someone to landscape, fix your car, build a deck or wash your car (traditionally male work), you're golden!

Personally every time somebody does a case study with "lawn guy" or "landscaper" on there I post that if you can't do your yard yourself, you have too much yard. I think hiring a cleaning person is a lot more reasonable - you gotta live somewhere - than hiring somebody to maintain something completely optional (the yard).


If you need to hire a cleaning person, you are too messy and/or have too big a living space.

Of course I do my own construction projects that are fun (although I'm not gonna risk my life).   I also clean up and it is not particularly hard.  It also helps ensure things are really clean and not just "rub a dirty rag on the toilet then on the sink" clean.

Goldielocks

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4443 on: May 12, 2016, 11:51:30 PM »


So yes to historic inequalities etc, but I actually put a lot of this on women themselves. These are educated, working, young women. Why didn't they have the same conversation? Why did they just start doing everything, whilst also complaining about it? I just don't get it.
My husband, you know, was a single guy who lived alone for 6 years before we married.

When we finally lived together, a couple of my girlfriends asked how I got him to do laundry.  My funny answer is: "I own more underwear".  (Which was true, he'd run out first!)  But really...the guy knows how to run a washing machine, and has since he was 18.

Okay,  About 12 months after our marriage, I just stopped doing my DH's laundry.  I still do the sheets, towels and my own (and now the kids' when they forget and it piles up), but never DH's.   This works great, as my clothing is never ruined by him anymore, and he will do his himself.   I iron his shirts when we go to my company dinner, or my parent's for dinner.

Unfortuneately, he does not get hungry for dinner (and will go for fast food whenever he suddenly realizes that he has not eaten in 12 hours), does not see the floors / mess, is more bothered by the idea of cleaning a toilet than having a dirty one, can't bend over to clean a tub / shower, and would rather have "family time" than take care of home maintenance (or somehow is unaware that the deck needs to be pressure washed when it is green in the spring, windows washed, fridge wiped out occasionally, etc.?)

So, just stopping doing the work is not a viable option, other than I get to live in a constant mess until I choose to do it.   I have only five options:

1) ignore the mess, do what I feel like and wear sunglasses inside
2) train the kids
3) do it myself
4) hire help (but there is work trying to manage maid service, too,)
5) ask for Kitsune's condo list and leave it around....

Oh, and I guess the one he asks for 6)  ask him to help when I am working on the chores..  which results in his feeling superior if I complain that he does not do much, ("but I was clear that all you need to do is ask")..justified in not doing anything unless I directly request it..... or in his making me feel bad for asking when I do "Can't you see that I am busy doing my hobby today?  I only get the weekends and weeknights to work on it...."

And no,   even when he agrees to a divided chore list, it lasts for about a day

Ah..  that felt good to whine to an anonymous audience.   Crankiness relieved for another week.

theadvicist

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4444 on: May 13, 2016, 03:48:58 AM »
My husband, you know, was a single guy who lived alone for 6 years before we married.

When we finally lived together, a couple of my girlfriends asked how I got him to do laundry.  My funny answer is: "I own more underwear".  (Which was true, he'd run out first!)  But really...the guy knows how to run a washing machine, and has since he was 18.

Yes, this is what I don't get. How did you 'get' him to do laundry?! Like if it's not your job to do the laundry, it's your job to get him to do it?! How do they think their partners got clean clothes before they met them? If it was his mother doing it, yeah, not interested in him thanks.

Even ignoring the unfair division of labour, it's an unfair policing of the division of labour, and I honestly don't understand why my friends don't just stand up for themselves. They were born in the 80s and 90s, they all work full-time, I don't know why the idea of a man 'helping out' is still prevalent. He's not 'helping' he's living his f*cking life, which involves cleaning, maintaining and laundry.

iowajes

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4445 on: May 13, 2016, 06:42:22 AM »
I "got" my husband to cook when he realized the only thing I can make is spaghetti (or variations- I can totally do mac and cheese) and will not handle raw meet.

Laundry is my chore, it's just how things got split. I usually do it while he is mowing the lawn.

Quote
I don't know why the idea of a man 'helping out' is still prevalent.
The same reason a man watching his own kids is "babysitting".   It's ridiculous.

BigRed

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4446 on: May 13, 2016, 10:00:01 AM »
The same reason a man watching his own kids is "babysitting".   It's ridiculous.

This drives me insane when people say it to me.  I always reply, "No, I'm fathering."


nobodyspecial

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4447 on: May 13, 2016, 10:29:34 AM »
My husband, you know, was a single guy who lived alone for 6 years before we married.

When we finally lived together, a couple of my girlfriends asked how I got him to do laundry.  My funny answer is: "I own more underwear".  (Which was true, he'd run out first!)  But really...the guy knows how to run a washing machine, and has since he was 18.

Not a well thought out plan. He may have less underwear but, as a guy, he is prepared to keep wearing it longer than you

rockstache

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4448 on: May 13, 2016, 10:37:35 AM »
My husband, you know, was a single guy who lived alone for 6 years before we married.

When we finally lived together, a couple of my girlfriends asked how I got him to do laundry.  My funny answer is: "I own more underwear".  (Which was true, he'd run out first!)  But really...the guy knows how to run a washing machine, and has since he was 18.


Yes, this is what I don't get. How did you 'get' him to do laundry?! Like if it's not your job to do the laundry, it's your job to get him to do it?! How do they think their partners got clean clothes before they met them? If it was his mother doing it, yeah, not interested in him thanks.

Even ignoring the unfair division of labour, it's an unfair policing of the division of labour, and I honestly don't understand why my friends don't just stand up for themselves. They were born in the 80s and 90s, they all work full-time, I don't know why the idea of a man 'helping out' is still prevalent. He's not 'helping' he's living his f*cking life, which involves cleaning, maintaining and laundry.

+1

I get this from my 93 year old grandmother - ok fine, she's not going to be anything but shocked that a man would actually do anything to help. I won't change her perspective on life at this point.

For everyone else in the world though, come on along. I can't believe how many women expect to be married to a guy who is basically like another child, and think that complaining about it is all you can do.

MgoSam

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #4449 on: May 13, 2016, 12:41:55 PM »
My husband, you know, was a single guy who lived alone for 6 years before we married.

When we finally lived together, a couple of my girlfriends asked how I got him to do laundry.  My funny answer is: "I own more underwear".  (Which was true, he'd run out first!)  But really...the guy knows how to run a washing machine, and has since he was 18.


Yes, this is what I don't get. How did you 'get' him to do laundry?! Like if it's not your job to do the laundry, it's your job to get him to do it?! How do they think their partners got clean clothes before they met them? If it was his mother doing it, yeah, not interested in him thanks.

Even ignoring the unfair division of labour, it's an unfair policing of the division of labour, and I honestly don't understand why my friends don't just stand up for themselves. They were born in the 80s and 90s, they all work full-time, I don't know why the idea of a man 'helping out' is still prevalent. He's not 'helping' he's living his f*cking life, which involves cleaning, maintaining and laundry.

+1

I get this from my 93 year old grandmother - ok fine, she's not going to be anything but shocked that a man would actually do anything to help. I won't change her perspective on life at this point.

For everyone else in the world though, come on along. I can't believe how many women expect to be married to a guy who is basically like another child, and think that complaining about it is all you can do.

Agreed! I didn't know how to cook or do laundry until I went to college, but you know what, I learned. Laundry isn't very difficult to do, and cooking need not be difficult to learn. It's just insane how many men act like cavemen the moment they get married because their wives are there to clean up after them.