Author Topic: Overheard on Facebook  (Read 1687003 times)

SunshineAZ

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5000 on: August 08, 2016, 10:32:08 AM »
Why have I tolerated this? My goal was to get my daughter to value life in an organized household and to appreciate how much work goes into taking care of kids or teens. She didn't, before. Despite having been raised as an enabler, she was too willing to sacrifice her own interests even when she was pulled out of an enabling environment. That sort of thing can't be allowed in a child, but when the child learns only through experience, it's best to let them have a small taste of the experience under controlled circumstances. It took a brief voyage into Pig-istan, a couple months of her working like Cinderella, and massive destruction of her clothing and belongings before her disgust and sense of being used hit critical mass. She's within inches of developing a sense of self-worth, because her house guests are starting to treat her the same way they treat me: good enough to use, but not good enough to invite to the party. So that's why I'm allowing my daughter's couch-surfing friend and associated munchkins to do this to my home: to permanently turn my daughter off of enabling behavior along with disorderliness, chaos, waste, and bad smells. It's working.

You're my hero!  Talk about tough love!!  I hope the experience opens the eyes of your daughter.  (I don't think I could put up with that for very long, I got twitchy just reading about it.)

BlueHouse

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5001 on: August 08, 2016, 10:43:45 AM »
Why have I tolerated this? My goal was to get my daughter to value life in an organized household and to appreciate how much work goes into taking care of kids or teens. She didn't, before. Despite having been raised as an enabler, she was too willing to sacrifice her own interests even when she was pulled out of an enabling environment. That sort of thing can't be allowed in a child, but when the child learns only through experience, it's best to let them have a small taste of the experience under controlled circumstances. It took a brief voyage into Pig-istan, a couple months of her working like Cinderella, and massive destruction of her clothing and belongings before her disgust and sense of being used hit critical mass. She's within inches of developing a sense of self-worth, because her house guests are starting to treat her the same way they treat me: good enough to use, but not good enough to invite to the party. So that's why I'm allowing my daughter's couch-surfing friend and associated munchkins to do this to my home: to permanently turn my daughter off of enabling behavior along with disorderliness, chaos, waste, and bad smells. It's working.

You're my hero!  Talk about tough love!!  I hope the experience opens the eyes of your daughter.  (I don't think I could put up with that for very long, I got twitchy just reading about it.)
This is absolutely brilliant.  I look forward to hearing more and I hope your daughter learns quickly and forever!  Good mothers make great sacrifices.  Not sure I could survive that.
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TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5002 on: August 08, 2016, 11:08:34 AM »
Why have I tolerated this? My goal was to get my daughter to value life in an organized household and to appreciate how much work goes into taking care of kids or teens. She didn't, before. Despite having been raised as an enabler, she was too willing to sacrifice her own interests even when she was pulled out of an enabling environment. That sort of thing can't be allowed in a child, but when the child learns only through experience, it's best to let them have a small taste of the experience under controlled circumstances. It took a brief voyage into Pig-istan, a couple months of her working like Cinderella, and massive destruction of her clothing and belongings before her disgust and sense of being used hit critical mass. She's within inches of developing a sense of self-worth, because her house guests are starting to treat her the same way they treat me: good enough to use, but not good enough to invite to the party. So that's why I'm allowing my daughter's couch-surfing friend and associated munchkins to do this to my home: to permanently turn my daughter off of enabling behavior along with disorderliness, chaos, waste, and bad smells. It's working.

You're my hero!  Talk about tough love!!  I hope the experience opens the eyes of your daughter.  (I don't think I could put up with that for very long, I got twitchy just reading about it.)
This is absolutely brilliant.  I look forward to hearing more and I hope your daughter learns quickly and forever!  Good mothers make great sacrifices.  Not sure I could survive that.

My savings and cash reserves haven't, and neither has some of the furniture or the tub and bathroom fixtures that didn't survive the shower parkour incident. For a class of people who can't be bothered to waddle down to the grocery store, they have some unusual exercise habits. At least I hope that's what it was.

Anyway, if this experience helps prevent a lifetime of enabling behavior for my daughter because we get to the full gross-out now, I'll count us ahead. I'd rather have her completely lose her shit right now, and then compose herself and figure out what she thinks and feels really. Up to two weeks ago she "didn't mind" a whole bunch of stuff she should have minded, because of the codependent attitude she picked up early in life due to having been around too many people who would probably benefit from an icepick to the forehead. Now she minds and feels appropriate hurt and resentment. I'm mildly bummed about her experiencing hurt and resentment, but this is how you show a person what having good boundaries feels like. The alternative is to accept a reality in which she continues enabler patterns into adulthood and ends up in a codependent sharknado of a marriage with some random abusive druggie or worse.

By learning how to step away from inappropriate responsibility, she's freed herself to step up in terms of taking responsibility for things that ARE appropriate and that DO create a payoff for her. It's really brought her forward, maturity-wise.
I squeak softly, but carry a big schtick.

pachnik

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5003 on: August 08, 2016, 11:35:04 AM »
Dear Grimsqueaker,

Your post is one of the most amazing things I have read on here in a long time.

Kudos to your parenting. 

mm1970

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5004 on: August 08, 2016, 11:40:39 AM »
To be fair I have seen smaller shops (mostly convenience stores) sell things at a price higher than a real grocery store.

Maybe these poor people haven't figured out the most cost effective places to shop? They just go for the one nearest home? The difference between the 1lb bag of something and the 5lb bag of something is usually a few cents per pound. Nothing drastic. If it is something drastic then it's time to find another place to shop.

I would recommend that they group up with a friend with a car and drive to a WalMart or other brand grocery store occasionally just like the rest of us make pilgrimages to the warehouse stores.

That's what us poor college students would do. That's what us poor military guys would do too. That's what we do today occasionally. Leave the kids with a friend/family and get the shopping done. Share the ride.

I still think the reason SOME people are poor is that they aren't creative enough to get out of their rut.
How much of this is overhead (higher rental cost), and inventory/ turnover?

Store owners in the city pay fairly high rent, and inventory costs money.  If you have something that doesn't sell at all, it costs money when you throw it out.

Making Cookies

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5005 on: August 08, 2016, 12:16:18 PM »
All good points. Yeah, never thought much about the higher rents/turnover/etc. I just looked at the higher prices and avoided shopping in places like that and avoided NEEDING to shop places like that.

GS: so what's next - just burning the place down and starting over? Or - pressure washing the interior of your house? Congrats - way to teach your daughter by example.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5006 on: August 08, 2016, 12:26:19 PM »
All good points. Yeah, never thought much about the higher rents/turnover/etc. I just looked at the higher prices and avoided shopping in places like that and avoided NEEDING to shop places like that.

GS: so what's next - just burning the place down and starting over? Or - pressure washing the interior of your house? Congrats - way to teach your daughter by example.

I plan to repaint, and sin no more.
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dragoncar

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5007 on: August 08, 2016, 12:40:01 PM »
To be fair I have seen smaller shops (mostly convenience stores) sell things at a price higher than a real grocery store.

Maybe these poor people haven't figured out the most cost effective places to shop? They just go for the one nearest home? The difference between the 1lb bag of something and the 5lb bag of something is usually a few cents per pound. Nothing drastic. If it is something drastic then it's time to find another place to shop.

I would recommend that they group up with a friend with a car and drive to a WalMart or other brand grocery store occasionally just like the rest of us make pilgrimages to the warehouse stores.

That's what us poor college students would do. That's what us poor military guys would do too. That's what we do today occasionally. Leave the kids with a friend/family and get the shopping done. Share the ride.

I still think the reason SOME people are poor is that they aren't creative enough to get out of their rut.
How much of this is overhead (higher rental cost), and inventory/ turnover?

Store owners in the city pay fairly high rent, and inventory costs money.  If you have something that doesn't sell at all, it costs money when you throw it out.

Higher losses to theft too

MgoSam

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5008 on: August 08, 2016, 12:47:07 PM »
To be fair I have seen smaller shops (mostly convenience stores) sell things at a price higher than a real grocery store.

Maybe these poor people haven't figured out the most cost effective places to shop? They just go for the one nearest home? The difference between the 1lb bag of something and the 5lb bag of something is usually a few cents per pound. Nothing drastic. If it is something drastic then it's time to find another place to shop.

I would recommend that they group up with a friend with a car and drive to a WalMart or other brand grocery store occasionally just like the rest of us make pilgrimages to the warehouse stores.

That's what us poor college students would do. That's what us poor military guys would do too. That's what we do today occasionally. Leave the kids with a friend/family and get the shopping done. Share the ride.

I still think the reason SOME people are poor is that they aren't creative enough to get out of their rut.
How much of this is overhead (higher rental cost), and inventory/ turnover?

Store owners in the city pay fairly high rent, and inventory costs money.  If you have something that doesn't sell at all, it costs money when you throw it out.

Higher losses to theft too

Which also mean higher insurance rates, more employee turnover (due to thefts and safety risks), and many more associated costs.

As for not being able to buy large quantities of things, have they ever considered looking into this handy thing called "The Internet." It's apparently a 'series of tubes,' but most definitely not 'a firetruck.'

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5009 on: August 08, 2016, 12:50:44 PM »
To be fair I have seen smaller shops (mostly convenience stores) sell things at a price higher than a real grocery store.

Maybe these poor people haven't figured out the most cost effective places to shop? They just go for the one nearest home? The difference between the 1lb bag of something and the 5lb bag of something is usually a few cents per pound. Nothing drastic. If it is something drastic then it's time to find another place to shop.

I would recommend that they group up with a friend with a car and drive to a WalMart or other brand grocery store occasionally just like the rest of us make pilgrimages to the warehouse stores.

That's what us poor college students would do. That's what us poor military guys would do too. That's what we do today occasionally. Leave the kids with a friend/family and get the shopping done. Share the ride.

I still think the reason SOME people are poor is that they aren't creative enough to get out of their rut.
How much of this is overhead (higher rental cost), and inventory/ turnover?

Store owners in the city pay fairly high rent, and inventory costs money.  If you have something that doesn't sell at all, it costs money when you throw it out.

Higher losses to theft too

Which also mean higher insurance rates, more employee turnover (due to thefts and safety risks), and many more associated costs.

As for not being able to buy large quantities of things, have they ever considered looking into this handy thing called "The Internet." It's apparently a 'series of tubes,' but most definitely not 'a firetruck.'

To be fair, the Internet requires credit cards (usually) and a safe delivery spot where your packages will actually remain until you get them. I've lived in apartment complexes where packages had a 50% chance of disappearing, so... I wouldn't necessarily recommend that to someone in a shifty neighbourhood.

MgoSam

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5010 on: August 08, 2016, 12:57:54 PM »
To be fair I have seen smaller shops (mostly convenience stores) sell things at a price higher than a real grocery store.

Maybe these poor people haven't figured out the most cost effective places to shop? They just go for the one nearest home? The difference between the 1lb bag of something and the 5lb bag of something is usually a few cents per pound. Nothing drastic. If it is something drastic then it's time to find another place to shop.

I would recommend that they group up with a friend with a car and drive to a WalMart or other brand grocery store occasionally just like the rest of us make pilgrimages to the warehouse stores.

That's what us poor college students would do. That's what us poor military guys would do too. That's what we do today occasionally. Leave the kids with a friend/family and get the shopping done. Share the ride.

I still think the reason SOME people are poor is that they aren't creative enough to get out of their rut.
How much of this is overhead (higher rental cost), and inventory/ turnover?

Store owners in the city pay fairly high rent, and inventory costs money.  If you have something that doesn't sell at all, it costs money when you throw it out.

Higher losses to theft too

Which also mean higher insurance rates, more employee turnover (due to thefts and safety risks), and many more associated costs.

As for not being able to buy large quantities of things, have they ever considered looking into this handy thing called "The Internet." It's apparently a 'series of tubes,' but most definitely not 'a firetruck.'

To be fair, the Internet requires credit cards (usually) and a safe delivery spot where your packages will actually remain until you get them. I've lived in apartment complexes where packages had a 50% chance of disappearing, so... I wouldn't necessarily recommend that to someone in a shifty neighbourhood.

That's a fair point. I know that Amazon is experimenting with dropboxes for this purpose.

I will admit I'm lucky in that I can have packages delivered to my office, my neighborhood is completely safe but in the summer I don't really want some foods I've ordered to be sitting in the mail box or right next to my front door.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5011 on: August 08, 2016, 01:03:52 PM »
To be fair I have seen smaller shops (mostly convenience stores) sell things at a price higher than a real grocery store.

Maybe these poor people haven't figured out the most cost effective places to shop? They just go for the one nearest home? The difference between the 1lb bag of something and the 5lb bag of something is usually a few cents per pound. Nothing drastic. If it is something drastic then it's time to find another place to shop.

I would recommend that they group up with a friend with a car and drive to a WalMart or other brand grocery store occasionally just like the rest of us make pilgrimages to the warehouse stores.

That's what us poor college students would do. That's what us poor military guys would do too. That's what we do today occasionally. Leave the kids with a friend/family and get the shopping done. Share the ride.

I still think the reason SOME people are poor is that they aren't creative enough to get out of their rut.
How much of this is overhead (higher rental cost), and inventory/ turnover?

Store owners in the city pay fairly high rent, and inventory costs money.  If you have something that doesn't sell at all, it costs money when you throw it out.

Higher losses to theft too

Which also mean higher insurance rates, more employee turnover (due to thefts and safety risks), and many more associated costs.

As for not being able to buy large quantities of things, have they ever considered looking into this handy thing called "The Internet." It's apparently a 'series of tubes,' but most definitely not 'a firetruck.'

Big truck, not firetruck.

the Internet is not something that you just dump something on. It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes. And if you don't understand, those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your message in, it gets in line and it's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material, enormous amounts of material.

MgoSam

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5012 on: August 08, 2016, 01:06:40 PM »
To be fair I have seen smaller shops (mostly convenience stores) sell things at a price higher than a real grocery store.

Maybe these poor people haven't figured out the most cost effective places to shop? They just go for the one nearest home? The difference between the 1lb bag of something and the 5lb bag of something is usually a few cents per pound. Nothing drastic. If it is something drastic then it's time to find another place to shop.

I would recommend that they group up with a friend with a car and drive to a WalMart or other brand grocery store occasionally just like the rest of us make pilgrimages to the warehouse stores.

That's what us poor college students would do. That's what us poor military guys would do too. That's what we do today occasionally. Leave the kids with a friend/family and get the shopping done. Share the ride.

I still think the reason SOME people are poor is that they aren't creative enough to get out of their rut.
How much of this is overhead (higher rental cost), and inventory/ turnover?

Store owners in the city pay fairly high rent, and inventory costs money.  If you have something that doesn't sell at all, it costs money when you throw it out.

Higher losses to theft too

Which also mean higher insurance rates, more employee turnover (due to thefts and safety risks), and many more associated costs.

As for not being able to buy large quantities of things, have they ever considered looking into this handy thing called "The Internet." It's apparently a 'series of tubes,' but most definitely not 'a firetruck.'

Big truck, not firetruck.

the Internet is not something that you just dump something on. It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes. And if you don't understand, those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your message in, it gets in line and it's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material, enormous amounts of material.

Thanks, when I first heard it, I heard it as "firetruck," but big truck makes more sense. In my defense, I was on the floor laughing so hard that I'm surprised I got the truck part right.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5013 on: August 08, 2016, 01:33:40 PM »
Why have I tolerated this? My goal was to get my daughter to value life in an organized household and to appreciate how much work goes into taking care of kids or teens. She didn't, before. Despite having been raised as an enabler, she was too willing to sacrifice her own interests even when she was pulled out of an enabling environment. That sort of thing can't be allowed in a child, but when the child learns only through experience, it's best to let them have a small taste of the experience under controlled circumstances. It took a brief voyage into Pig-istan, a couple months of her working like Cinderella, and massive destruction of her clothing and belongings before her disgust and sense of being used hit critical mass. She's within inches of developing a sense of self-worth, because her house guests are starting to treat her the same way they treat me: good enough to use, but not good enough to invite to the party. So that's why I'm allowing my daughter's couch-surfing friend and associated munchkins to do this to my home: to permanently turn my daughter off of enabling behavior along with disorderliness, chaos, waste, and bad smells. It's working.

You're my hero!  Talk about tough love!!  I hope the experience opens the eyes of your daughter.  (I don't think I could put up with that for very long, I got twitchy just reading about it.)
This is absolutely brilliant.  I look forward to hearing more and I hope your daughter learns quickly and forever!  Good mothers make great sacrifices.  Not sure I could survive that.

My savings and cash reserves haven't, and neither has some of the furniture or the tub and bathroom fixtures that didn't survive the shower parkour incident. For a class of people who can't be bothered to waddle down to the grocery store, they have some unusual exercise habits. At least I hope that's what it was.

Anyway, if this experience helps prevent a lifetime of enabling behavior for my daughter because we get to the full gross-out now, I'll count us ahead. I'd rather have her completely lose her shit right now, and then compose herself and figure out what she thinks and feels really. Up to two weeks ago she "didn't mind" a whole bunch of stuff she should have minded, because of the codependent attitude she picked up early in life due to having been around too many people who would probably benefit from an icepick to the forehead. Now she minds and feels appropriate hurt and resentment. I'm mildly bummed about her experiencing hurt and resentment, but this is how you show a person what having good boundaries feels like. The alternative is to accept a reality in which she continues enabler patterns into adulthood and ends up in a codependent sharknado of a marriage with some random abusive druggie or worse.

By learning how to step away from inappropriate responsibility, she's freed herself to step up in terms of taking responsibility for things that ARE appropriate and that DO create a payoff for her. It's really brought her forward, maturity-wise.

I know this isn't the whole story. But what are the boundaries here? I understand it must be close to impossible to enforce boundaries on 6-7 houseguests, but letting them run rampant doesn't seem to be teaching anything about boundaries. What consequences are there when they abuse your home and your goodwill. Also, isn't one month enough - give your daughter the gift of teaching her how to kick people out. And, change the locks whenever they do leave.

The boundaries she's learning?
  • Her clothes are for her, not to be taken and trashed or given away without her knowledge by other people who help themselves
  • Other people are not to bring guests into her room while she is not present
  • Nobody gets to use her as a free babysitter by dumping their kids on her at the last minute
  • When she cleans up the bathroom, it's reasonable to expect it to stay clean
  • Her allowance money is for her, and not to be cadged out of her by someone who "needs" money for gas or a fast food run
  • Why we do not lend out the family vehicle
  • Her bed is for her to sleep in, not to be given over to someone else while she sleeps on the floor because that person prefers to not use the fold-out couch or room they were given
  • When she spends all her time taking over someone else's responsibilities, there are still consequences for not fulfilling her own, and the universe will not cut her any slack just because she exhausted herself chasing the monkeys in someone else's circus
  • Her electronics, furniture, and belongings are not toys for toddlers
  • Why it's a bad idea for her to try to take from me to give to somebody else
  • Why it's an even worse to let people take from her in order to give to somebody else
  • The fine art of identifying unreasonable requests and saying "no" to them
  • How to identify and survive the tantrum stage when an over-entitled adult tries to get back on the nipple
  • Why it's a bad thing to do for others what they should be doing for themselves
  • Not wanting to wake up to the smell of human feces is actually OK
  • Why a person who is not functioning as an adult has "needs" that will expand to consume and then exceed all available resources
  • Why, when she runs out of energy or resources to give, she's not going to be helped in return by the non-functional adult
  • Correct duck alignment requires that she not try to line up other people's ducks while letting hers waddle all over the place
  • Correct fuck alignment requires an awareness of what she does or doesn't actually control
  • How to not be the second velociraptor
  • How to not spend her whole life on a one-way street
  • Why taking control of what's not hers to manage will not end well or produce the results she wants, but it will sure exhaust her

... and more... much more.

One month wasn't actually enough to pull this off.

After the first month, she was still eyeballs-deep in codependent behavior and trying to dump her responsibilities onto me (preferably along with her fecund friend's responsibilities) in order to be the hero and take on even more. She truly believed that doing this would benefit the kids.

By "codependent behavior" I'm talking about a willingness to destroy her relationship with me in order to give more to her houseguests. I'm talking about siding with her houseguests, trying to get me to give them money, confronting me for asking for broken or missing belongings to be returned, yelling at me for not using a "nice" enough tone of voice when expressing a desire for food to not be tracked through the house. I'm talking about insisting that it was right and appropriate to "let" them live in a filthy and disorganized way, not having a bedtime, a wakeup time, or organized meals because "it's how they like to live", and throwing a tantrum herself when I refused to watch her houseguest's children. She also confronted me when somebody's precious feelings were hurt when I used the word "pigs" to describe their behavior after a food booby trap exploded in the pantry.

Instead of doing the boundary thing and recognizing the extent to which she was being used herself and also the extent to which she was helping the guests to abuse me, she went into full martyr mode and vowed to take all the work on herself because she "didn't mind", and that her guests "just needed until". This is not healthy behavior. This is the behavior of someone mired in codependency to the point where they truly believe that pulling someone else in is the thing to do. Helping can be just as addictive as heroin, and it was in danger of becoming my daughter's "drug" of choice.

If I'd sent the guests on their way at that point, I'd have been taking the fix away and creating the need for more, setting into motion a pattern of behavior that could have continued into my daughter's adulthood, which is coming on fast. Bad patterns repeat themselves unless they're broken.

So I stood back and let my daughter start experiencing negative consequences for her behavior.

Around the house, I bowed out of guest activities. I did only the work that suited me, and let my daughter take over all the work and enabling for caring for a handful of very badly socialized kids. It caught up to her pretty quickly especially when she realized her best effort still wasn't producing the results she wanted. She snapped, and did some things she probably wouldn't have done otherwise. Her frustration and feelings of being overwhelmed led to some denial, self destructive decisions, and other things that made her feel less good about herself and more criticized and set-upon by everybody. Eventually, it reached a breaking point where she verbally attacked me for not supporting her enough or appropriately. So I pointed out where the bear shit in the woods, and explained what was and was not appropriate parent behavior.

I suppose it took two full weeks of martyrdom for her to crack and realize that she did indeed mind. Now she's experiencing some of the stress and resentment, and also recognizing the extent to which she's being used. She's now asking for change, enforcing change, and complaining about her situation because she can't do the fun things she really want to do. She's also recognizing the limitations to her own power and having a strong need to stay in her own swim lane.

As a consequence of cracking, she had to take some attention away from the unrewarding, codependent bullshit and consequently had a breakthrough in an area of life where hard work and concentration IS rewarded.

A couple more weeks should sear this incident into her memory for life.

O' the houseguests: they're not being allowed to run rampant. She stepped up and took responsibility for them. Yes, I let her step in that because she didn't believe me when I told her about quicksand.
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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5014 on: August 08, 2016, 01:51:48 PM »
How old is your daughter?  We see "my daughter's adulthood, which is coming on fast," your daughter living with you, and that she has a working "friend" who already has six children.  Are daughter and "friend" significantly different ages?
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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5015 on: August 08, 2016, 01:54:04 PM »
How old is your daughter?  We see "my daughter's adulthood, which is coming on fast," your daughter living with you, and that she has a working "friend" who already has six children.  Are daughter and "friend" significantly different ages?

I was left wondering about this, as well.

MgoSam

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5016 on: August 08, 2016, 01:55:58 PM »
How old is your daughter?  We see "my daughter's adulthood, which is coming on fast," your daughter living with you, and that she has a working "friend" who already has six children.  Are daughter and "friend" significantly different ages?

I was left wondering about this, as well.

Also how did this "homeless" family come to live with you? Did you know them beforehand?

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5017 on: August 08, 2016, 02:23:59 PM »
Yes, I let her step in that because she didn't believe me when I told her about quicksand.

I imagine it must be hard to watch your daughter go through all these realizations and learn the hard way.  It is hard to watch your kid decide if they are going to sink or swim.  Good for you on the tough love. 

I'd love to hear about how she is doing, thoughts, lessons, once everyone is out of the house.  how much of an impact will it make on her short and long term life plans.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5018 on: August 08, 2016, 02:27:04 PM »
How old is your daughter?  We see "my daughter's adulthood, which is coming on fast," your daughter living with you, and that she has a working "friend" who already has six children.  Are daughter and "friend" significantly different ages?

I was left wondering about this, as well.

Also how did this "homeless" family come to live with you? Did you know them beforehand?

My daughter turns 17 this winter. She's only been with me a year and we finalized in May. I have very, very little time to give her the life skills she needs before she reaches legal majority at 18. She's very bright and a quick learner but the clock is ticking.

As to her friend, she's in her 30s and is like an older stepsister to my daughter. She actually helped care for my daughter during some rough times years ago so my daughter believed she owed her a major debt. The lady's quite likeable and she's got a lot of up-side despite her commitment to Suinae culture. The children, though badly socialized, are trainable.

I did a basic but discreet background check on her first, obviously. I regarded it as a kind of tenancy although I obviously didn't sign a contract with her.

Selecting some garden-variety mooch that didn't have a bond with my daughter to begin with would not have delivered the lesson. I didn't go looking for this one, it was more of an opportunity sent by Lord Baphomet Itself.

Me talking about the behavior I want to see, or me modeling it, is nowhere near as effective a teaching tool as letting her select the best solution by herself and then own it.
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dragoncar

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5019 on: August 08, 2016, 02:28:00 PM »
Are you just going to burn your house down after all this is over?

Also, please let me know where a bear shits in the woods. Asking for a friend.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5020 on: August 08, 2016, 02:33:08 PM »
Are you just going to burn your house down after all this is over?

Also, please let me know where a bear shits in the woods. Asking for a friend.

Nah. My daughter's keeping up with the cleaning competently. I'll have some repairs, a bit of paint maybe, and some Rug Doctor.

The bear shits near the water supply, but not in it. In this respect they differ from humans.
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Nederstash

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5021 on: August 08, 2016, 02:47:41 PM »
Are you just going to burn your house down after all this is over?

Also, please let me know where a bear shits in the woods. Asking for a friend.

Nah. My daughter's keeping up with the cleaning competently. I'll have some repairs, a bit of paint maybe, and some Rug Doctor.

The bear shits near the water supply, but not in it. In this respect they differ from humans.

Humans shit in the hand that feeds them.

With This Herring

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5022 on: August 08, 2016, 03:30:35 PM »
How old is your daughter?  We see "my daughter's adulthood, which is coming on fast," your daughter living with you, and that she has a working "friend" who already has six children.  Are daughter and "friend" significantly different ages?

I was left wondering about this, as well.

Also how did this "homeless" family come to live with you? Did you know them beforehand?

My daughter turns 17 this winter. She's only been with me a year and we finalized in May. I have very, very little time to give her the life skills she needs before she reaches legal majority at 18. She's very bright and a quick learner but the clock is ticking.

As to her friend, she's in her 30s and is like an older stepsister to my daughter. She actually helped care for my daughter during some rough times years ago so my daughter believed she owed her a major debt. The lady's quite likeable and she's got a lot of up-side despite her commitment to Suinae culture. The children, though badly socialized, are trainable.

*snip*

Now this is making sense.  Thank you.  And I'm so glad you are giving your daughter this education in the safety of your own home!  Tough love here is true love.
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mm1970

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5023 on: August 08, 2016, 03:38:30 PM »
complete shitshow

Whoa.  I did not know people lived like that.  I was never the neatest person in the world (I've gotten better).  But yuck.

Even my horrible college roommates who never did their dishes...were not this bad.

SwordGuy

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5024 on: August 08, 2016, 03:59:34 PM »
TheGrimSqueaker, you are my hero.

If you are ever in the mood to practice your wordcraft on a group of people who most definitely need your wisdom, just send me your Facebook id.  I'll tag you in the thread so you can join in - but only after stopping at the store to get some popcorn 'cause it would be way better than a movie show.

If you ever come thru the Fayetteville, NC area, let me know and I'll buy you dinner.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 04:41:06 PM by SwordGuy »

marty998

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5025 on: August 08, 2016, 04:05:51 PM »
Wow TGS. Love your work.

johnny847

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5026 on: August 08, 2016, 04:10:00 PM »
TGS, I just added your posts to the best posts I saw on the forums thread!
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/the-best-post-i-saw-today-on-the-mr-money-mustache-forums-was/msg1181755/#msg1181755

I also noticed the previous best post on there was also from you--about a mooching roommate, no less!

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5027 on: August 08, 2016, 07:59:01 PM »
TGS, I just added your posts to the best posts I saw on the forums thread!
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/the-best-post-i-saw-today-on-the-mr-money-mustache-forums-was/msg1181755/#msg1181755

I also noticed the previous best post on there was also from you--about a mooching roommate, no less!

I am humbled. /blush

Yet I cannot take credit for the mooching roommate thread; I simply gave some advice as to how the thread starter could best assert his alpha status.
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Undefined

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5028 on: August 08, 2016, 08:51:07 PM »
A friend of a friend on facebook, tagging herself at a Barnes & Noble:

"Paperback therapy. ‪#‎toobadimbroke‬"

Astatine

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5029 on: August 08, 2016, 10:30:06 PM »
Wow TGS. Love your work.

This. Just amazing.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5030 on: August 09, 2016, 04:32:04 AM »
The boundaries she's learning?

[ snip snip ]
  • How to not be the second velociraptor
Please explain this.

SwordGuy

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5031 on: August 09, 2016, 06:44:58 AM »

GS: so what's next - just burning the place down and starting over? Or - pressure washing the interior of your house? Congrats - way to teach your daughter by example.

I plan to repaint, and sin no more.

I hope that means "My daughter and I plan to repaint..." :)

Inaya

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5032 on: August 09, 2016, 08:24:12 AM »
Am I the only one who desperately needs more information about the shower parkour incident?
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LeRainDrop

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5033 on: August 09, 2016, 08:46:17 AM »
Am I the only one who desperately needs more information about the shower parkour incident?

Having looked up what "parkour" means, I also want to know!

mm1970

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5034 on: August 09, 2016, 08:59:56 AM »
Yesterday on FB...family and cars.  You have to understand that many of my family members are into cars.  This comes naturally for some.  My dad was an auto-mechanic, my nephew is really into pickup trucks (of course he is) and he's a diesel mechanic.

My brother...he goes through cars...a lot.  My sis is his insurance agent and there were times that he and his wife bought/sold (always at a loss) 3-4 cars in a single year.  At one point they had a pickup truck and bought a second one ... WHEN they were pregnant with kid #2.  That second truck only lasted a few months after the baby was born before they traded it.

So imagine my pleasant surprise when they trade in the jeep for a Camry.  Wow, they are growing up!  In their 40s.  Now, they both do a lot of driving.  It was pretty common for SIL to drive 90 miles round trip every day to work, and then drive 250 miles RT to go shopping for fun on her day off.

Anyway, yesterday "look at my new wheels!  I loved the camry, but there's nothing like a jeep!" And a friend "jeeps are the BEST".  I couldn't help myself.  My husband (and son) think I'm horrible for raining on the parade.  "It looks like they are in SECOND place, behind Fiat, as least reliable!"

Tell me I'm not the only person who looks for reliability, gas mileage, and safety first? (and last)

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5035 on: August 09, 2016, 09:19:06 AM »
The boundaries she's learning?

[ snip snip ]
  • How to not be the second velociraptor
Please explain this.

How to not get manipulated into confronting someone who loves and trusts you, so as to benefit a third party who cannot get their way through a direct request because what they're asking for is unreasonable. It's a reference to the first Jurassic Park movie... "the attack comes from the side". I believe the technical term is "triangulation" and it's a form of social warfare.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 09:20:46 AM by TheGrimSqueaker »
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TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5036 on: August 09, 2016, 09:35:04 AM »
Am I the only one who desperately needs more information about the shower parkour incident?

Having looked up what "parkour" means, I also want to know!

It means a soap dish that was built into the wall tiles above the bathtub has been ripped off, slamming into the tub with enough force to chip off a 2 inch gouge in the bathtub enamel. The grout and mortar came with the soap dish, ripping the surface off the drywall which was subsequently soaked because nobody found it necessary to cover the drywall while showering and continued to douse the exposed drywall with water. It's very unlikely that I'm going to be able to get mortar to stick at this point because of the soaking (I expect the unprotected drywall to break down anyway although I did cover it as soon as I found out about the damage). So after the houseguests leave I'm looking at either a drywall replacement plus a re-tiling job, plus I will need to re-finish the tub.

It takes a fair bit of force to rip something like that off the wall when it's securely mortared and grouted on, which is why I suspect some kind of piggy parkour in the shower. I can't fathom why anybody would stand on a soap dish but like I say pigs have weird customs. They also managed to rip a curtain rod out of the wall while my daughter and I were out and while the piglets were supposedly being supervised by their dam. Apparently one of the piglets likes to swing on drapes Tarzan-style and can't be made to understand that it's not acceptable. I fixed the curtain rod yesterday and also scraped the exploded orange juice off the outside of my freezer, where someone created a massive spill or explosion of some kind but chose not to clean it up, leaving it to dry out and get crusty instead.

It will take a lot of work to restore the house and the pig room to its former condition after they move out. We've got to deep clean the carpets, scour the crayon marks out of my workroom table, and find and buy new crystals for my antique lamp because some of them are mysteriously missing even after I hunted down the ones that had been mysteriously relocated during piglet playtime.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 09:39:05 AM by TheGrimSqueaker »
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Chris22

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5037 on: August 09, 2016, 09:36:09 AM »
Yesterday on FB...family and cars.  You have to understand that many of my family members are into cars.  This comes naturally for some.  My dad was an auto-mechanic, my nephew is really into pickup trucks (of course he is) and he's a diesel mechanic.

My brother...he goes through cars...a lot.  My sis is his insurance agent and there were times that he and his wife bought/sold (always at a loss) 3-4 cars in a single year.  At one point they had a pickup truck and bought a second one ... WHEN they were pregnant with kid #2.  That second truck only lasted a few months after the baby was born before they traded it.

So imagine my pleasant surprise when they trade in the jeep for a Camry.  Wow, they are growing up!  In their 40s.  Now, they both do a lot of driving.  It was pretty common for SIL to drive 90 miles round trip every day to work, and then drive 250 miles RT to go shopping for fun on her day off.

Anyway, yesterday "look at my new wheels!  I loved the camry, but there's nothing like a jeep!" And a friend "jeeps are the BEST".  I couldn't help myself.  My husband (and son) think I'm horrible for raining on the parade.  "It looks like they are in SECOND place, behind Fiat, as least reliable!"

Tell me I'm not the only person who looks for reliability, gas mileage, and safety first? (and last)

Obviously you aren't the only one, but you admit that your family is "into" cars, shouldn't it make (common, not fiscal) sense that their priorities are different than yours?  For instance, if they're a family of DIY/mechanics, reliability may not rank as highly for them because they'll just fix any problems themselves. 

To me, this smacks of "I like baseball, my family looks football, aren't they stupid?"
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Kitsune

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5038 on: August 09, 2016, 10:30:02 AM »
Am I the only one who desperately needs more information about the shower parkour incident?

Having looked up what "parkour" means, I also want to know!

It means a soap dish that was built into the wall tiles above the bathtub has been ripped off, slamming into the tub with enough force to chip off a 2 inch gouge in the bathtub enamel. The grout and mortar came with the soap dish, ripping the surface off the drywall which was subsequently soaked because nobody found it necessary to cover the drywall while showering and continued to douse the exposed drywall with water. It's very unlikely that I'm going to be able to get mortar to stick at this point because of the soaking (I expect the unprotected drywall to break down anyway although I did cover it as soon as I found out about the damage). So after the houseguests leave I'm looking at either a drywall replacement plus a re-tiling job, plus I will need to re-finish the tub.

It takes a fair bit of force to rip something like that off the wall when it's securely mortared and grouted on, which is why I suspect some kind of piggy parkour in the shower. I can't fathom why anybody would stand on a soap dish but like I say pigs have weird customs. They also managed to rip a curtain rod out of the wall while my daughter and I were out and while the piglets were supposedly being supervised by their dam. Apparently one of the piglets likes to swing on drapes Tarzan-style and can't be made to understand that it's not acceptable. I fixed the curtain rod yesterday and also scraped the exploded orange juice off the outside of my freezer, where someone created a massive spill or explosion of some kind but chose not to clean it up, leaving it to dry out and get crusty instead.

It will take a lot of work to restore the house and the pig room to its former condition after they move out. We've got to deep clean the carpets, scour the crayon marks out of my workroom table, and find and buy new crystals for my antique lamp because some of them are mysteriously missing even after I hunted down the ones that had been mysteriously relocated during piglet playtime.

... Wow. Just, wow.

... Is your daughter going to be participating in the re-tiling efforts? Or in the "this is how much it costs to replace antique crystals and re-enamel tubs" discussion? Because $$$$ is important.

MgoSam

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5039 on: August 09, 2016, 10:38:06 AM »
Not money related, but I was catching up with a friend of mine. She was complaining about her boyfriend and how she's thinking of ending the relationship. I just listened but finally I couldn't help but ask her about a post she made on FB about how awesome her boyfriend is and stuff like that. She calmly mentioned, "I have to do that because he posts that about me all the time and if I didn't, he would know something's up."

infogoon

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5040 on: August 09, 2016, 10:53:25 AM »
Anyway, yesterday "look at my new wheels!  I loved the camry, but there's nothing like a jeep!" And a friend "jeeps are the BEST".  I couldn't help myself.  My husband (and son) think I'm horrible for raining on the parade.  "It looks like they are in SECOND place, behind Fiat, as least reliable!"

Tell me I'm not the only person who looks for reliability, gas mileage, and safety first? (and last)

That not really fair. After all, these days a Jeep _is_ a Fiat.

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5041 on: August 09, 2016, 11:06:58 AM »
... Wow. Just, wow.

... Is your daughter going to be participating in the re-tiling efforts? Or in the "this is how much it costs to replace antique crystals and re-enamel tubs" discussion? Because $$$$ is important.

Naturally. We're going to DIY the whole thing, including the tub resurfacing. There will be a few paintbrush marks because we can't spray on the new layer of coating the way the pros can, but she needs to know how to abrade and patch. Same goes for the re-tiling, and at the same time we can change the look of the tile and the walls if we choose. She's been wanting to repaint the bathroom anyway and we do have the paint on hand, left over from an earlier paint job elsewhere in the house.

This sort of thing provides very good fix-it experience for my teen. Later, when she owns her own home and/or manages investment real estate, she will have the skills to either do the work herself or competently supervise someone else.
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ringer707

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5042 on: August 09, 2016, 11:07:44 AM »
Am I the only one who desperately needs more information about the shower parkour incident?

Having looked up what "parkour" means, I also want to know!

It means a soap dish that was built into the wall tiles above the bathtub has been ripped off, slamming into the tub with enough force to chip off a 2 inch gouge in the bathtub enamel. The grout and mortar came with the soap dish, ripping the surface off the drywall which was subsequently soaked because nobody found it necessary to cover the drywall while showering and continued to douse the exposed drywall with water. It's very unlikely that I'm going to be able to get mortar to stick at this point because of the soaking (I expect the unprotected drywall to break down anyway although I did cover it as soon as I found out about the damage). So after the houseguests leave I'm looking at either a drywall replacement plus a re-tiling job, plus I will need to re-finish the tub.

It takes a fair bit of force to rip something like that off the wall when it's securely mortared and grouted on, which is why I suspect some kind of piggy parkour in the shower. I can't fathom why anybody would stand on a soap dish but like I say pigs have weird customs. They also managed to rip a curtain rod out of the wall while my daughter and I were out and while the piglets were supposedly being supervised by their dam. Apparently one of the piglets likes to swing on drapes Tarzan-style and can't be made to understand that it's not acceptable. I fixed the curtain rod yesterday and also scraped the exploded orange juice off the outside of my freezer, where someone created a massive spill or explosion of some kind but chose not to clean it up, leaving it to dry out and get crusty instead.

It will take a lot of work to restore the house and the pig room to its former condition after they move out. We've got to deep clean the carpets, scour the crayon marks out of my workroom table, and find and buy new crystals for my antique lamp because some of them are mysteriously missing even after I hunted down the ones that had been mysteriously relocated during piglet playtime.

Holy. Shit. I will admit that there are times when I leave the dishes piled up. And may be approaching week three of not cleaning my shower. But what on earth...

honeybbq

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5043 on: August 09, 2016, 11:08:13 AM »
The boundaries she's learning?

[ snip snip ]
  • How to not be the second velociraptor
Please explain this.

How to not get manipulated into confronting someone who loves and trusts you, so as to benefit a third party who cannot get their way through a direct request because what they're asking for is unreasonable. It's a reference to the first Jurassic Park movie... "the attack comes from the side". I believe the technical term is "triangulation" and it's a form of social warfare.


I am horrified, amazed, and speechless at your story. Sometimes I feel overwhelmed trying to get my 4 yr old to put on her shoes. I'm going to recalibrate my perspective now.

Making Cookies

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5044 on: August 09, 2016, 12:21:55 PM »
Yesterday on FB...family and cars.  You have to understand that many of my family members are into cars.  This comes naturally for some.  My dad was an auto-mechanic, my nephew is really into pickup trucks (of course he is) and he's a diesel mechanic.

My brother...he goes through cars...a lot.  My sis is his insurance agent and there were times that he and his wife bought/sold (always at a loss) 3-4 cars in a single year.  At one point they had a pickup truck and bought a second one ... WHEN they were pregnant with kid #2.  That second truck only lasted a few months after the baby was born before they traded it.

So imagine my pleasant surprise when they trade in the jeep for a Camry.  Wow, they are growing up!  In their 40s.  Now, they both do a lot of driving.  It was pretty common for SIL to drive 90 miles round trip every day to work, and then drive 250 miles RT to go shopping for fun on her day off.

Anyway, yesterday "look at my new wheels!  I loved the camry, but there's nothing like a jeep!" And a friend "jeeps are the BEST".  I couldn't help myself.  My husband (and son) think I'm horrible for raining on the parade.  "It looks like they are in SECOND place, behind Fiat, as least reliable!"

Tell me I'm not the only person who looks for reliability, gas mileage, and safety first? (and last)

TCO = total cost of ownership. That's what I consider.

If it's expensive and runs like a Swiss watch with few repairs for 20 years then I'd make peace with the price tag.

If it is a $5K mess that needs expensive repairs frequently then no way. And then there is all that grey area in between.

Of course the $60K car usually needs alot of expensive TLC and there are alot of good cheap cars out there that get overlooked and shunned based on "COOL" or "NOT COOL".

We get by with a pair of $1500 cars that are quite comfortable, trouble free and reliable. I might have a touch of a third world perspective despite never living in a place like that. I make excuses for cheap but reliable cars b/c of how people's consumerism has crashed the economy a few times. I'm convinced we could all get by with '63 Ford Falcons (aside from the pollution factor).

TCO changes as Chriss22 pointed out depending on how big a deal some of the repairs a car presents. For me - most repairs are not a big deal as long as they don't happen frequently b/c I can repair it myself.

I try not to rain on anyone's parade. Their choices are none of my concern. Let them get wiser through the "School of Hard Knocks".
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 12:29:03 PM by Joe Lucky »

Kitsune

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5045 on: August 09, 2016, 12:22:27 PM »
The boundaries she's learning?

[ snip snip ]
  • How to not be the second velociraptor
Please explain this.

How to not get manipulated into confronting someone who loves and trusts you, so as to benefit a third party who cannot get their way through a direct request because what they're asking for is unreasonable. It's a reference to the first Jurassic Park movie... "the attack comes from the side". I believe the technical term is "triangulation" and it's a form of social warfare.


I am horrified, amazed, and speechless at your story. Sometimes I feel overwhelmed trying to get my 4 yr old to put on her shoes. I'm going to recalibrate my perspective now.

To quote my mother: "well, there's gravel between here and the car, and we're leaving in 2 minutes. Your choice."

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5046 on: August 09, 2016, 12:56:53 PM »
/a bunch of stuff

Holy. Shit. I will admit that there are times when I leave the dishes piled up. And may be approaching week three of not cleaning my shower. But what on earth...

I'm telling you, there's an entire class of people who live like this and like it. They really do wear out housing. They have radically different cultural values and reasons for doing what they do, but they're the reason tenements and slums exist. You can start out with a very nice building, but if you get occupants like this it will be run down pretty quickly. It's not even entirely a socioeconomic thing. The psychology is totally messed up but it's also frighteningly common.
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MgoSam

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5047 on: August 09, 2016, 02:15:53 PM »
/a bunch of stuff

Holy. Shit. I will admit that there are times when I leave the dishes piled up. And may be approaching week three of not cleaning my shower. But what on earth...

I'm telling you, there's an entire class of people who live like this and like it. They really do wear out housing. They have radically different cultural values and reasons for doing what they do, but they're the reason tenements and slums exist. You can start out with a very nice building, but if you get occupants like this it will be run down pretty quickly. It's not even entirely a socioeconomic thing. The psychology is totally messed up but it's also frighteningly common.

Yeah that's a good point. I'll admit that before I got a roommate I was pretty lazy about doing dishes and maintaining the kitchen. In my eye it was never too dirty to cook in, but it was definitely too dirty to have people over. It was pure laziness on my part, I rationed to myself that I would clean it on Sunday....er, next Sunday, and the cycle continued. I would end up hosting a dinner party to get myself to clean it because the humiliation of being seen living in a pigsty was enough to motivate me.

My tenant is a very clean person and so it helps encourage me to keep my kitchen clean and what I love is that it does not take all that much work. I wash my plates after I use them, wipe up the microwave or anything that I've used that's gotten a little dirty, and sweep and mop once a week. Doesn't take all that much time.

RysChristensen

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5048 on: August 09, 2016, 05:13:24 PM »
/a bunch of stuff

Holy. Shit. I will admit that there are times when I leave the dishes piled up. And may be approaching week three of not cleaning my shower. But what on earth...

I'm telling you, there's an entire class of people who live like this and like it. They really do wear out housing. They have radically different cultural values and reasons for doing what they do, but they're the reason tenements and slums exist. You can start out with a very nice building, but if you get occupants like this it will be run down pretty quickly. It's not even entirely a socioeconomic thing. The psychology is totally messed up but it's also frighteningly common.

Yeah that's a good point. I'll admit that before I got a roommate I was pretty lazy about doing dishes and maintaining the kitchen. In my eye it was never too dirty to cook in, but it was definitely too dirty to have people over. It was pure laziness on my part, I rationed to myself that I would clean it on Sunday....er, next Sunday, and the cycle continued. I would end up hosting a dinner party to get myself to clean it because the humiliation of being seen living in a pigsty was enough to motivate me.

My tenant is a very clean person and so it helps encourage me to keep my kitchen clean and what I love is that it does not take all that much work. I wash my plates after I use them, wipe up the microwave or anything that I've used that's gotten a little dirty, and sweep and mop once a week. Doesn't take all that much time.

*looks around own pig sty* I suddenly feel the need to go clean ALL the things!

MissNancyPryor

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Re: Overheard on Facebook
« Reply #5049 on: August 10, 2016, 07:22:21 AM »

~snip~

 Food is free (when I'm not providing, there are food stamps) and so there's no incentive to do anything but waste. They're moving out at the end of the month, which is when I expect to hear a bunch of bitching and wailing about how the mother hasn't been able to save anything at all.


Exactly this!  GS, you are incredible, love your posts.  I note that you are able to say what I am thinking without the Judging Police piping up about how some empathy is lacking.  Seems there are quite a few folks who line up to shame us for saying common sense things like "free stuff = waste" for some people.  Whether it is a free/heavily subsidized house, food, or even healthcare, there are absolutely those who just don't see the value of what is given them and waste it.  Blanket statements are generally bad ideas but your real life, specifically first-hand example can't be argued with. 

I am sure there are those who become homeless and have periods of very tough times of relying on the good will of others, but those who treat the hand up with respect rarely stay in that condition and soon move on to self reliance.  I have no trouble helping those whose tough luck circumstance is brief and treated like something to get out of quickly, but those who end up defining their whole culture by it are not worth the effort.