Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.

[Zamboni]

^Yes, this strategy is definitely in play, thank you for the reminder. One of the other heirs has already said she plans to go that route because she can't deal with the drama and lives far away.

Basically it rewards someone for their terribly toxic behavior, which has been a pattern for decades. But my other half had already mentioned completely going no contact with this person whether or not the FU money is used to avoid an estate dispute. He has told me for years how totally rotten this person is, but I never witnessed it first hand until now. Whatever is decided by my beloved, I will be fully supportive, of course.

[Sibley]

I'm not quite sure that it's a reward for misbehavior, though I'm sure that at least in the short term it will feel like one. If someone pulls all that crap and gets what they want right now, but everyone else decides they're just done and walks away.... It may not be a problem initially. But at some point, they're going to want something, or need help, and no one is going to be there.

[By the River]

I think my wife's family may have headaches with a couple of her brothers fighting over what I assume will be a smaller inheritance (~$100K?).   It would be great to just walk away but she has been made executor by her parents because she is the level headed one.  We probably need to discuss this with them and see if we can move that duty to a neutral party. 

[SwordGuy]

I think my wife's family may have headaches with a couple of her brothers fighting over what I assume will be a smaller inheritance (~$100K?).   It would be great to just walk away but she has been made executor by her parents because she is the level headed one.  We probably need to discuss this with them and see if we can move that duty to a neutral party.

As the executor you have the authority to hire out the tasks that need to be done.  By law you're probably allowed to charge for your time and expenses, which can be used to pay the person you hire.  Problem solved.

[zolotiyeruki]

I'm not quite sure that it's a reward for misbehavior, though I'm sure that at least in the short term it will feel like one. If someone pulls all that crap and gets what they want right now, but everyone else decides they're just done and walks away.... It may not be a problem initially. But at some point, they're going to want something, or need help, and no one is going to be there.

That's a very important point.  Also, If the toxic person receives a double (or triple) inheritance but doesn't have any fiscal discipline, the larger windfall is likely to only marginally extend and/or enrich the ensuing spending spree.  I.e. the extra money will buy the toxic person a couple months worth of pleasure, at the cost of trashing what's left of their familial relationships.

[Villanelle]

I'm not quite sure that it's a reward for misbehavior, though I'm sure that at least in the short term it will feel like one. If someone pulls all that crap and gets what they want right now, but everyone else decides they're just done and walks away.... It may not be a problem initially. But at some point, they're going to want something, or need help, and no one is going to be there.

Also, I don't care if their bad behavior is rewarded.  I can only control and influence my life and if the decision makes my life better and easier, I don't care what it does to their life.  If choice A is better for me than choice B, I will choose A and if that means the other person ends up with $10m dollars?  Thats irrelevant because I could only choose between A or B for myself.  I'm not going to make my life worse by going with B, just because I want to make sure their life isn't made better by my choice, regardless of what I think they may "deserve". 

(Clearly, in healthy relationships with reasonable people, choosing between A and B isn't always about just what is best for only one's self.  But when you no longer care how your decision affects them then all you can do is look at what is best for you.  If that happens to make their life better too, it is irrelevant.)

And to Sibley's specific point, I also agree.  When I've considered the possibility walking away from an inheritance, it has always been with the idea that if it comes to that it will be, "Congrats, everything is yours. You are also now the executor and even though you are bumbling idiot, you have to sort out, on your own, how to manage that and what is legally required including paperwork, tax filing, and everything else.  And, lose my number.  This is the end of the relationship.  The $100k [or whatever the amount is] you are receiving is the cost of our relationship which is now over in all ways."  And for someone like this person specifically, that may not feel meaningful initially, but they are not good at life and have spend their entire life being dependent on other people.  Even something like filing their own, very basic taxes has probably always been handled by a family member.  (And yes, this is an able-bodied and able-minded adult.  They just dig in and remain intentionally ignorant on so many aspects of basic adulting.)  So it likely will be problematic for them.  When the money is spent, which will happen quickly, they will want a hand out.  When they can't figure out how to tell various entities that the person has passed away, in order to get access to accounts or proceed with legalities, they will want help. When they need to sell a house but don't know how, they will be at the mercy of whatever real estate agent they find.  When they decided to invest everything in Bitcoin, not even understanding the most basics of what Bitcoin is, and they lose it all?  Not my problem.   In this scenario, I would not take those phone calls because this person would be basically a stranger to me.  Less than a stranger, in fact, because a stranger is neutral and hasn't squandered any good will or decency. 

So sure, their bad behavior might be rewarded with more inheritance, but that will hardly be the boon they make think it is. 

[Zamboni]

With each passing day it becomes more and more clear that walking away from this mess indeed might be the best answer.

It is becoming clear that there are two relatives who will be fighting like crabs in a bucket over this fairly small estate. One destroyed the will (explicitly because the other was named in it), and told others proudly in real time, but now denies it ever happened and says no will was found. They hate each other, of course, but this week they seem to be trying to form some sort of weird but certainly transient alliance against the two other heirs, who are rational people.

There's no way their alliance will last even a month, much less as long as it takes to get through probate, because the bottom line is that they both want the house and/or contents of the house of the deceased for themselves. Right now they seem intent on finding reasons to cut out the people who live out of town. To hear them tell it, neither cared enough about the deceased to stay living in the same town with her, so why should they inherit anything, amirite? But neither of the crabs-in-a-bucket are competent at all. Both have always "needed" help and had enablers. Their principal helper/enabler is the deceased. You all hit that right on the head. I guess it's a common theme in families.

Probably an actual lawyer should be appointed as administrator of the estate. Thankfully there is an abundance of lawyers, so perhaps one will be willing take on the estate administration for the state allocated fee? Does anyone have experience with something like that?

[talltexan]

Imagine a circus like this, and OP somehow convinces the two dramatic siblings to actually pay a few $K to walk away?

[Dicey]

Imagine a circus like this, and OP somehow convinces the two dramatic siblings to actually pay a few $K to walk away?

Because OP would never, ever be rid of them.

[Zamboni]

Instead, imagine one dramatic sibling demanding that she be paid over $10K cash (or sent $10K via Venmo) by the end of the day TODAY, because that is a conversation that just happened . . . not even two weeks since the death. This was a quick death too, as deaths go, not a prolonged illness where bills piled up. No offer to provide receipts for anything, no polite request to work together to figure things out, just a nasty and rude demand for money immediately "for the bills."

We may be the only people she knows who do have that amount of money easily accessible today, although thankfully our stealth wealth means we can deny having it, but it's going to be a no from us anyway. Which is sad, because if she was decent on any level we would just pay for things and help her sort it out (or at least take the necessary steps get it all taken care of by someone else who is competent.) My God, this is so ugly.

[Dicey]

That was fast.

[Villanelle]

Instead, imagine one dramatic sibling demanding that she be paid over $10K cash (or sent $10K via Venmo) by the end of the day TODAY, because that is a conversation that just happened . . . not even two weeks since the death. This was a quick death too, as deaths go, not a prolonged illness where bills piled up. No offer to provide receipts for anything, no polite request to work together to figure things out, just a nasty and rude demand for money immediately "for the bills."

We may be the only people she knows who do have that amount of money easily accessible today, although thankfully our stealth wealth means we can deny having it, but it's going to be a no from us anyway. Which is sad, because if she was decent on any level we would just pay for things and help her sort it out (or at least take the necessary steps get it all taken care of by someone else who is competent.) My God, this is so ugly.

Wow. 

This is when my, "we have no extra cash" speech comes in handy.  And it is also true, if a bit misleading (especially when inferences are made by a spendthrift). It's true because none of our money is "extra". 

Is this supposedly for bills related to the estate?  What $10,000 bills come up in two weeks?

[SwordGuy]

Instead, imagine one dramatic sibling demanding that she be paid over $10K cash (or sent $10K via Venmo) by the end of the day TODAY, because that is a conversation that just happened . . . not even two weeks since the death. This was a quick death too, as deaths go, not a prolonged illness where bills piled up. No offer to provide receipts for anything, no polite request to work together to figure things out, just a nasty and rude demand for money immediately "for the bills."

We may be the only people she knows who do have that amount of money easily accessible today, although thankfully our stealth wealth means we can deny having it, but it's going to be a no from us anyway. Which is sad, because if she was decent on any level we would just pay for things and help her sort it out (or at least take the necessary steps get it all taken care of by someone else who is competent.) My God, this is so ugly.

Wow. 

This is when my, "we have no extra cash" speech comes in handy.  And it is also true, if a bit misleading (especially when inferences are made by a spendthrift). It's true because none of our money is "extra". 

Is this supposedly for bills related to the estate?  What $10,000 bills come up in two weeks?

First of all, you don't owe anyone anything as far as the estate goes.   Neither does your sibling.

The estate owes the money.   The only way you can become liable is if you voluntarily choose to accept something that has a debt attached to it.  You can just refuse the item and leave it and the debt for the estate to settle.

If you notify any reasonable and/or competent business that the person who owes them money has died and the paperwork for being the executor has not yet been received, they'll know you simply can't pay them yet and they will wait.   Utility companies know this.  So do credit cards, mortgage holders, car finance companies, etc.  Ditto for doctors and hospitals.

So, unless it's some loan collectors from the local loan shark equipped with some baseball bats, there's simply little reason for that kind of urgency.   

If there truly is an emergency, then it should be easily explainable and independently verifiable.

[AMandM]

In Zamboni's case, the theft and destruction of the will seems to me the first problem, because how do you even appoint an executor until the existence of the will is settled? Can Zamboni's SO extricate himself from the whole process before there even is a process?

Zamboni, all my sympathy to your SO and you!

[Zamboni]

^Thank you for the sympathy. It is highly appreciated. What a weird week!

First of all, you don't owe anyone anything as far as the estate goes.   Neither does your sibling.

The estate owes the money.   The only way you can become liable is if you voluntarily choose to accept something that has a debt attached to it.  You can just refuse the item and leave it and the debt for the estate to settle.

If you notify any reasonable and/or competent business that the person who owes them money has died and the paperwork for being the executor has not yet been received, they'll know you simply can't pay them yet and they will wait.   Utility companies know this.  So do credit cards, mortgage holders, car finance companies, etc.  Ditto for doctors and hospitals.

So, unless it's some loan collectors from the local loan shark equipped with some baseball bats, there's simply little reason for that kind of urgency.   

If there truly is an emergency, then it should be easily explainable and independently verifiable.

Yes, everyone seems to understand that. At least everyone seems to understand that except the "gimme cash today" person, who also happens to be the destroyer of the last will and testament (DotLWaT!).
DotLWaT! also demands everyone sign (& get notarized) a freshly prepared document she has had drawn up that declares her to be the executor of the estate. It's not the will . . . you can imagine how (not) well that worked.

Wow. 

This is when my, "we have no extra cash" speech comes in handy.  And it is also true, if a bit misleading (especially when inferences are made by a spendthrift). It's true because none of our money is "extra". 

Is this supposedly for bills related to the estate?  What $10,000 bills come up in two weeks?

I like that "no extra cash" phrasing. Gonna borrow that as needed ;-)

That was fast.

SO's family has a relatively high proportion of fast twitch muscle. My own genetics lean more towards slow twitch . . . I can keep shaking my head "no" forever, for example.

@Finances_With_Purpose, those are some great ideas. Very creative. It seems like "sit on it and do nothing" is the direction this is headed, though, mostly because the siblings don't want to interact with DotLWaT! at all anymore. It takes two to make a fight, they say. So true.

[Catbert]

For those of you planning to (wisely) nope out, please stay close enough to the situation that you can watch and report.  :-/   Zamboni is already providing me with a popcorn situation.

[Adventine]

I wonder what terrorist tactic Destroyer of the Will is going to come up with next!

[Villanelle]

I'm not a lawyer/don't know where you are, so I'll start from that point.  I happen to have walked through these types of things with some people, though.  To your questions, here's what I would do and why:

First, a lawyer can't just up and decide to take over someone's estate.  Instead, in general, a person involved must ask for that--someone who has an interest has to ask for that.  So someone would have to get involved, most likely, to make that happen. 

I don't know how it works where you are, but in many places you'd have to go to court, notify the other siblings, and convince a judge to appoint some other lawyer to run things (which might be easy to do in this case).  All at your own cost initially, since clearly, these guys aren't going to agree to let anyone else control it but themselves. 

So, what would I do? 

1.  Consult a lawyer now, even if you don't plan to sue or be involved.  For instance, you mentioned a house.  I'm guessing they won't pay taxes on it until ownership is decided.  Maybe they'll fight over who lives there.  They'll surely fight over who pays what. 

The third heir - the honest person - will be on the hook too, though, and may get tagged for debts due for the house/estate eventually.  It can become a mess; I've seen a relative sued for foreclosure over a house she disclaimed and didn't want.  It was just good that she wasn't trying to get a mortgage at the time.  (Ditto suits if someone gets injured there.)  You may want to figure out a reasonable exit plan, even if that's just to disclaim whatever you may have been entitled to. 

2.  Hire a lawyer if you plan to take any action steps, though at least consult one regardless.  Go to a lawyer you know and trust.  You ultimately want a good estate litigation lawyer in the area near where this house/estate is (i.e. in that state and not too far away).  But you may not know one, so find a lawyer that you do know and trust to help you find the right lawyer.  That'll help in many ways, and it protects you to some extent against getting some weird scumbag. 

Short answer is that you need a consult if not a lawyer for the longer term.  Depends on what your loved one wants to do, but the best way to decide that is to go lay it all out for a lawyer and weigh the options. 

Since there's a house, I would assume that this whole fiasco will be long and ugly until.  Eventually, a bank may foreclose for debts on the house, or a government will, for taxes (and taxes may take years upon years), or the courts will ultimately take it over.  All of those futures will are messy and probably a long ways away. 

Houses are hard to sell without: (1) the titled owner or (2) agreement among those who remain.  So you may as well get some legal help to figure out what to do.  You'll rest better even if the best option is to sit on it for ten years and do nothing. 

Besides, the lawyer may give you devilish lawyer ideas like (**consult a lawyer first!!**): do nothing until the brothers are finally forced to create an estate in a court in order to sell the house and they are desperately fighting over who's in charge.  Then send in a lawyer (or a letter) to the court to notify the judge that Brother A burned the actual will and is using that to commit fraud against both the parents and the heirs.  You are ready and willing to testify and also supply the judge the names of witnesses who heard Brother A tell them that himself and have no financial interest, should this proceed, and you now request that those witnesses be called to testify.  Furthermore, you have notified the police and their presence will be requested as well.  You can politely suggest that you, the honest heir, don't want to profit from the Brothers' shenanigans, which have harmed everyone (including the court), and you lament that the actual will probably had thoughtful protections for Brother A, Brother B, you, and the Court from having to deal with this godawful ugly public mess that Brother A has now necessitated.  Sadly though, you just can't stand to sit idly by and watch Brother A profit from theft against your parents and destruction of all that they built while these brothers smear their good reputation, so you felt it necessary to propose that the court allocate Brother A's fair share to a charity/cause that your parents liked, in their honor, since we'll never know what the will said, but we know it was worse for Brother A, and that he committed fraud to stop it.  Then sit back and watch Brother A self-immolate while the court spends the rest of the case finding creative ways not to give Brother A one single dime.  Because consequences. 

But really, it may be better for your mental health to just do a consult and then walk away entirely in the most efficient manner possible and let the others go to war with one another while you're enjoying life somewhere far, far away.

I'm not saying this is the wrong approach, but the problem I would have with it is that this is work and stress and uncomfortable confrontation and time spent for me.  And the whole point of walking away is to avoid that.  For the same reason that I don't care if my choice supposedly rewards bad behavior, I have no desire to make my life worse (even just slightly so, for all the time and thought spent on this legal maneuvering) in order to make sure someone else's life is also worse.  That's the point of walking away--they don't matter in my life, and that's for better or for worse. 

So the effort I plan to make--while fully recognizing that things could change if and when this is no longer a hypothetical--will be hopefully only one meeting with a lawyer and that will be to determine how I can make sure my name is in no way associated with anything having to do with the estate, lest their be unpaid taxes or anything else.  Once I've figured out how to completely remove myself, legally from anything, I get to walk away, unburdened.  What happens with, for, and to Greedy Relative after that is entirely not my concern. 

[Zamboni]

Trying to look at the bright side, this entire episode with the destroyer of the last will and testament (DotLWaT) is providing an opportunity to learn about local estate laws.

Followed your advice and consulted with the estate lawyer who did our wills. He's a friend that I've known for years. He had some good advice and said anyone with a basic education should be able to administer an estate with the help of the county clerk. When we mentioned that that house needs very extensive clean up regardless of whether a family member moves there or it is sold, he then suggested that the county probate clerk can recommend a local attorney to be the administrator appointed by the family. That atty would handle all of the matters related to the estate accounting, legal notices, paying debtors, etc. for the state allocated rate, which depends upon the amount of assets and transactions and it is capped at $6K total. He said the clerk will know people who accept that rate. He said he would do it if it was located in a closer county, but it's a couple of hours away, so he's not interested in making any trips.

This all seemed really reasonable. SO thought he had found the solution to the bickering and suggested it to his siblings as a route to making things smooth and easy. DotLWaT wigged out and started hurling insults. She insists on doing it herself and now wants the others to sign something releasing her from the requirement to have a bond. So, yes, she has already been filing documents to be the estate administrator, which isn't surprising.

Apparently the bond is required by state law unless all of the other heirs are adults AND willing to sign a waiver of the bond. See how much we are learning?! The bond cannot be waived if any of the heirs are under 18. Sounds like the bond is supposed to provide some level of protection in case of mismanagement or incompetence or theft by the estate administrator. If everyone is normal, sure, sign it.

SO declined to sign that for obvious reasons. More rage. More insults. DotLWaT does not like rules or boundaries. Now says she will smear his name to anyone who will listen and that everyone already knows what a terrible person he is. Umm, okay.

Edited to add: his Mom died less than 2 weeks ago. Sheesh.

[Dicey]

Wow. Getting that threat in writing might prove useful. When my sister was off the rails, it wasn't hard to get this via text. People that volatile are sadly, rather easy to provoke. It's a shitshow and you have my sympathies, Z.

[FIPurpose]

I'm waiting for the moment that DotLWaT finds out that because they're claiming the house for themselves, that they'll end up with significantly less cash than everyone else (or no cash). And then throw another fit about how unfair it is.

Having a lawyer do it sounds best. Heck, even if everyone was on the same page, 6k sounds like a good deal for someone else to just handle all of that.

[PDXTabs]

SO thought he had found the solution to the bickering and suggested it to his siblings as a route to making things smooth and easy. DotLWaT wigged out and started hurling insults. She insists on doing it herself and now wants the others to sign something releasing her from the requirement to have a bond. So, yes, she has already been filing documents to be the estate administrator, which isn't surprising.

Apparently the bond is required by state law unless all of the other heirs are adults AND willing to sign a waiver of the bond. See how much we are learning?! The bond cannot be waived if any of the heirs are under 18. Sounds like the bond is supposed to provide some level of protection in case of mismanagement or incompetence or theft by the estate administrator. If everyone is normal, sure, sign it.

SO declined to sign that for obvious reasons. More rage. More insults. DotLWaT does not like rules or boundaries. Now says she will smear his name to anyone who will listen and that everyone already knows what a terrible person he is. Umm, okay.

Good, don't sign that bond waiver. That's a normal part of the estate dissolution process in every state I've been involved with (namely: Oregon).

[Zamboni]

It has pretty much all been via text.

Within 24 hours of the death, DotLWaT claims she spent in the neighborhood of $22000 on final arrangements (funeral, burial plot, etc). This is what she supposedly immediately needed $10K cash for. Regardless of whether or not you think it was reasonable of her to rush out and spend that amount the morning right after the death without consulting anyone, there are 3 siblings . . . so how is $10K each adding up to $22K? And why would someone need it in cash immediately?

Any normal person would ask to see receipts: DotLWaT was asked for receipts and responded that she would send them "tomorrow". That was a couple of days ago. Still nothing on that front.

[Villanelle]

It has pretty much all been via text.

Within 24 hours of the death, DotLWaT claims she spent in the neighborhood of $22000 on final arrangements (funeral, burial plot, etc). This is what she supposedly immediately needed $10K cash for. Regardless of whether or not you think it was reasonable of her to rush out and spend that amount the morning right after the death without consulting anyone, there are 3 siblings . . . so how is $10K each adding up to $22K? And why would someone need it in cash immediately?

Any normal person would ask to see receipts: DotLWaT was asked for receipts and responded that she would send them "tomorrow". That was a couple of days ago. Still nothing on that front.

And having made those decisions without consulting anyone doesn't mean she can bill the estate for them.  (of course, consult a lawyer; I am not one.)  A $22,000 funeral is a personal choice and therefore a personal expense, not an estate expense if the estate (meaning, all the heirs) didn't agree to it. 

She's ridiculous.  I'm so sorry anyone has to deal with this, but especially they they are days out from the loss of a parent. 

[SwordGuy]

@Zamboni , do what makes you happy, but personally, I would do my part to get them put in jail.   

And if that wasn't feasible, I would conduct affairs so that they would completely burn ALL bridges to all the other siblings.

Unless, of course, my spouse, her sibling, wanted otherwise.

[Zamboni]

^A mental hospital is likely more appropriate, but most of those have been shut down.

My SO is very distraught after all of this and now just doesn't want to deal with anything, which is understandable. He has started having some nightmares about DotLWaT and it is making him lose sleep. :-( He worries about the crazy things she is saying. His Dad also has very serious behavior issues and has become DotLWaT's flying monkey . . . that is odd because supposedly he and DotLWaT hate each other. They are both being awful.

When we were told the death was imminent, SO rushed there and was able to be with her at the end. After that we discussed that SO would go to the funeral home with family and offer to contribute $5K towards the funeral expenses later that week. . . an offer he never had a chance to make since DotLWaT reaffirmed that she is a force of destruction.

Just now I looked up the law and I learned this: in our state, there are legislated caps on final arrangement expenses that can be reimbursed by an estate: $3500 for the funeral and $1500 for the burial plot and headstone or marker. So $5K total towards those costs from estates. Which makes sense, because average final expenses are in the $5-10K range, even with a full service funeral. Oh dear. DotLWaT's gonna absolutely lose whatever is left of her mind. Maybe as part of her initiating her oversight of the estate she recently learned that and it led to the sudden demand for the cash? Based upon prior negative experiences with DotLWaT, SO thinks she is just trying to extort money from him and his sibling, who both told her on the evening of the death that the deceased had told them she wanted a cremation and modest funeral, but I think she actually put a crap ton of guilt money on her credit card (for the miles!) and now is having serious buyer's remorse.

[Sibley]

So DotLWaT is going to be having money trouble shortly. Wonderful. /s

Zamboni - suggest to your SO that he place the problematic family members on mute on his phone, so that he can read and respond (or not) to messages when he's up for it, rather than getting notifications as they come in. Same with email. Filter emails to a separate folder, read all at once. It can be quite helpful.

[Zamboni]

That is a good idea, Sibley. I've actually done that with one person myself and it does really help. I'll remind him that his phone has that function. Thanks!

[Villanelle]

So DotLWaT is going to be having money trouble shortly. Wonderful. /s

Zamboni - suggest to your SO that he place the problematic family members on mute on his phone, so that he can read and respond (or not) to messages when he's up for it, rather than getting notifications as they come in. Same with email. Filter emails to a separate folder, read all at once. It can be quite helpful.

Agree!  And if you are up for it, Zamboni, you might even offer to be the initial screen.  Read/listen to the messages once a day and give him a polite summary of anything he actually needs to know and have him directly read/listen only anything that he absolutely must get word for word.

[Zamboni]

^Naw, SO can adult, and I'd probably pop off profanity ridden retorts which wouldn't help the situation. Not that I'm a hothead, but we're dealing with people who are highly practiced agitators at this point, and we all have our limits. Also, some of the texts are in a language I don't understand, especially those from his Dad, so I'd be worse than worthless at that.

[SunnyDays]

Wow Zamboni, what a fiasco.

Are her words about finding a really old will and threatening to burn it in a text?  If so, this should be presented to the lawyer/police.  Even if it was only verbal, it still might be worth getting authorities involved.  Threats of legal action might bring her into line.

[Zamboni]

I'm actually not sure, although I know he had some follow up texts with her about it. At that point SO and I were in different locations (he had traveled to where the deceased lived . . . his third trip there in a month) so I was getting those reports from him over the phone.

Honestly I just don't want to ask him about it for awhile for the sake of our peace and happiness.  I'll wait for him to bring it up if he hears anything over this next month.

I'm also not sure DotLWaT officially filed the death certificate with the county clerk. Clearly she was at least getting things ready for the process, but when he refused to sign a document and give her cash immediately when she demanded it, she flew into a rage and told him that he could deal with it all alone and that he would come begging her for help later. Because, in her words, we are broke losers who can't make our own money. Uh huh. So maybe she's not going to do it? Other than a general prediction of stirring up problems, it's hard to predict what she will do with any certainty.

[Weisass]

I just spent the last week reading through this thread from the beginning, and all I can say is… wow.

And also:

I’ve asked my parents to take the time to lay out their intentions with all of the siblings clearly while we are all together next summer.

I’ve told my husband it is time to put our intentions in writing

Thank you for all of the cautionary tales and occasional positive stories that remind me how important it is to be transparent, to hold things lightly, and to put healthy boundaries around ourselves. Because nobody will do that for us.

[Zamboni]

@Weisass, yeah, that is a good idea. Because in our case there were disagreements over this past month about whether the deceased had even stated preference for cremation (the majority opinion) or burial in a casket (minority opinion, but that is what ended up happening.) So if people can't even agree what the deceased want done with their remains, you can imagine that they also won't be on the same page about what the deceased wanted done with their estate, and that could lead to bickering even if it is a very small estate.

Darkly hilariously update on the saga of DotLWaT (destroyer of the last will and testament):

The named executor, who had travelled from out of state for the funeral, has now gone home, sifted through a pack rat stash of documents, and found a copy of the will: Hahaha DotLWaT's efforts are foiled!

But it gets better: this will is >20 years old and names the deceased's ex-spouse (who was their spouse at the time the will was signed) as inheriting their entire estate. Executor is not willing to just trash this document, much to the consternation of DotLWaT. So suddenly DotLWaT is playing nice to everyone and trying to get everyone to "reach an agreement" that everyone has to unite to fight ex-spouse getting it all.

The ex-spouse has not been informed of this as far as I know. It's important to know that the ex-spouse did have a continuing seemingly friendly relationship with the deceased and did visit during the duration of the pre-death hospital stay and did attend the funeral. But neither the named executor nor DotLWaT want him to get everything.  DotLWaT doesn't want him to get anything.

And for anyone who is sure that he won't get anything, I will refer you to the fact that Freddie Mercury's ex-wife inherited the vast majority of his gigantic estate . . . and he was an out of the closet homosexual who had a live-in domestic partner who received relatively little in the end. They were friends until his death, which is not actually that different than the situation that is happening right now with our family.

I'll update more later.

[former player]

A copy of the original Will can be used to get probate if it is known that the original is destroyed by someone other than the person who's Will it is, which is the case here.

The named executor needs to take legal advice on whether or not the ex-spouse can still inherit if the divorce came after the will was executed - this depends on the legal rules that apply where the maker of the Will died.

If the Will left everything to the ex spouse and the ex spouse isn't able to inherit, then the executor will probably have to distribute the estate according to intestacy rules - ie as if there were no Will at all.  But again this depends on the local jurisdiction.

I suppose it's possibly that the will destroyed by DoftLWaT might have been a later will than the one the executor has a copy of?  If so, the earlier Will may have been revoked by the later destroyed one which would technically still be in force - although evidence of that would be tricky given that the only live person to see that will destroyed it.  From what is said, I suspect there was only ever one Will and DoftLWaT destroyed the original of what the executor now has a copy.

The executor for the Will should 1) contact the legal firm (if any) that helped draw up the will to see if they've got any further information about the circumstances in which it was made and whether they know of any later Will, and 2) call round the legal firms near where the deceased lived to see if they have any record of her having made any other will.  Probably both these efforts will turn up nothing, but a negative to those two questions could be useful in removing doubt and helping the executor to get probate and then distribute the estate according to it, or according to the rules of intestacy if relevant.

[LadyMuMu]

I'm blown away by the irony of the possibility that DoftLWaT's actions may have destroyed the will in which they received less than they thought they should resulting in the enforcement of an older will in which they get nothing. Epic.

[partgypsy]

This is not a super crazy story, but symbolizes my family. My dad died over a year ago. He had told my two living siblings that he had "taken care" of the funeral expenses. He unexpectedly passes. Luckily he lived in an apartment and was not a packrat. The plot was already paid for, but because covid it just being a burial and not a funeral, was close to 16k just for those expenses none of it paid ahead of time. Week or so later one of my siblings finds an envelope with 14k in it, realize this was what he meant by "taking care" of it, though it honestly barely covered the burial and definitely not a full funeral with dinner service. As there was no will or wishes written down it was stressful to figure out his wishes. We tell mom, please plan ahead. She has no will. Says she wants to be buried, full funeral etc. But also says she is not planning to set aside any money to pay for her wishes, (or write anything down). Also says she is going to leave all her money (hypothetical whether she will even have any assets by the time she does) to only one of the three siblings. Before my brother died she said he was going to inherit it because he "needed" it more. Now she says the same for my sister. Ironically it is the more responsible siblings who have helped her (she lives with my brother) and also have grandkids, that get cut out. Me and my brother shrug. It's not worth talking about but we asked, why leave things in a way you know will make it more difficult for the living? Responds "why should I care, I'll be dead". And also since we all were prepared to pay for dads expenses before we found the money, we should be prepared to do the same for her.

[RWTL]

Responds "why should I care, I'll be dead". And also since we all were prepared to pay for dads expenses before we found the money, we should be prepared to do the same for her.

This is hard to wrap my head around how someone could feel this way. 

[Kris]

Responds "why should I care, I'll be dead". And also since we all were prepared to pay for dads expenses before we found the money, we should be prepared to do the same for her.

This is hard to wrap my head around how someone could feel this way.

Right? My parents would never ever have wanted to burden me with anything. It floors me.

[iris lily]

This is not a super crazy story, but symbolizes my family. My dad died over a year ago. He had told my two living siblings that he had "taken care" of the funeral expenses. He unexpectedly passes. Luckily he lived in an apartment and was not a packrat. The plot was already paid for, but despite covid it just being a burial and not a funeral, was close to 16k just for those expenses none of it paid ahead of time. Week or so later one of my siblings finds an envelope with 14k in it, realize this was what he meant by "taking care" of it, though it honestly wasn't enough to cover the burial let alone a full funeral. As there was no will or wishes written down it was stressful. We tell mom, please plan ahead. She has no will. Says she wants to be buried, full funeral etc. But also says she is not planning to set aside any money to pay for her wishes, (or write anything down). Also says she is going to leave all her money (hypothetical whether she will even have any assets by the time she does) to only one of the three siblings. Before my brother died she said he was going to inherit it because he "needed" it more. Now she says the same for my sister. Ironically it is the more responsible siblings who have helped her (she lives with my brother) and also have grandkids, that get cut out. Me and my brother shrug. It's not worth talking about but we asked, why leave things in a way you know will make it more difficult for the living? Responds "why should I care, I'll be dead". And also since we all were prepared to pay for dads expenses before we found the money, we should be prepared to do the same for her.

In this situation my relative would be getting the $700 special, which is cremation  with remai s picked up in a cardboard box, then Scattered.

$16,000 Sounds like a lot to me but I suppose if there was a cost of a burial plot and you are in a high population place, and then there’s an expensive casket and vault, I suppose all that adds up.

[partgypsy]

This is not a super crazy story, but symbolizes my family. My dad died over a year ago. He had told my two living siblings that he had "taken care" of the funeral expenses. He unexpectedly passes. Luckily he lived in an apartment and was not a packrat. The plot was already paid for, but despite covid it just being a burial and not a funeral, was close to 16k just for those expenses none of it paid ahead of time. Week or so later one of my siblings finds an envelope with 14k in it, realize this was what he meant by "taking care" of it, though it honestly wasn't enough to cover the burial let alone a full funeral. As there was no will or wishes written down it was stressful. We tell mom, please plan ahead. She has no will. Says she wants to be buried, full funeral etc. But also says she is not planning to set aside any money to pay for her wishes, (or write anything down). Also says she is going to leave all her money (hypothetical whether she will even have any assets by the time she does) to only one of the three siblings. Before my brother died she said he was going to inherit it because he "needed" it more. Now she says the same for my sister. Ironically it is the more responsible siblings who have helped her (she lives with my brother) and also have grandkids, that get cut out. Me and my brother shrug. It's not worth talking about but we asked, why leave things in a way you know will make it more difficult for the living? Responds "why should I care, I'll be dead". And also since we all were prepared to pay for dads expenses before we found the money, we should be prepared to do the same for her.

In this situation my relative would be getting the $700 special, which is cremation  with remai s picked up in a cardboard box, then Scattered.

$16,000 Sounds like a lot to me but I suppose if there was a cost of a burial plot and you are in a high population place, and then there’s an expensive casket and vault, I suppose all that adds up.

I was surprised how much it cost, considering there was no funeral (there was graveside service). The plot was already paid for. We did purchase a solid wood casket as that is customary but from another company so "reasonable".  Other costs were: transportation from the morgue and to the gravesite. cost for opening up the plot, open (less expensive) casket cover, burial services, closing the plot,  prayer cards, set of flowers, and setting of the marker (The metal burial marker was free because he was former military, but the cemetary required it was affixed to stone and then set). That alone cost around 1K.

[RWTL]

This is not a super crazy story, but symbolizes my family. My dad died over a year ago. He had told my two living siblings that he had "taken care" of the funeral expenses. He unexpectedly passes. Luckily he lived in an apartment and was not a packrat. The plot was already paid for, but despite covid it just being a burial and not a funeral, was close to 16k just for those expenses none of it paid ahead of time. Week or so later one of my siblings finds an envelope with 14k in it, realize this was what he meant by "taking care" of it, though it honestly wasn't enough to cover the burial let alone a full funeral. As there was no will or wishes written down it was stressful. We tell mom, please plan ahead. She has no will. Says she wants to be buried, full funeral etc. But also says she is not planning to set aside any money to pay for her wishes, (or write anything down). Also says she is going to leave all her money (hypothetical whether she will even have any assets by the time she does) to only one of the three siblings. Before my brother died she said he was going to inherit it because he "needed" it more. Now she says the same for my sister. Ironically it is the more responsible siblings who have helped her (she lives with my brother) and also have grandkids, that get cut out. Me and my brother shrug. It's not worth talking about but we asked, why leave things in a way you know will make it more difficult for the living? Responds "why should I care, I'll be dead". And also since we all were prepared to pay for dads expenses before we found the money, we should be prepared to do the same for her.

In this situation my relative would be getting the $700 special, which is cremation  with remai s picked up in a cardboard box, then Scattered.

$16,000 Sounds like a lot to me but I suppose if there was a cost of a burial plot and you are in a high population place, and then there’s an expensive casket and vault, I suppose all that adds up.

I was surprised how much it cost, considering there was no funeral (there was graveside service). The plot was already paid for. We did purchase a solid wood casket as that is customary but from another company so "reasonable".  Other costs were: transportation from the morgue and to the gravesite. cost for opening up the plot, open (less expensive) casket cover, burial services, closing the plot,  prayer cards, set of flowers, and setting of the marker (The metal burial marker was free because he was former military, but the cemetary required it was affixed to stone and then set). That alone cost around 1K.

Unfortunately I've had several deaths in my family in a short time period.  Both members wanted cremation and one wanted as cheap as possible (specific wishes indicated Cheap!)

Family member 1:  Cremation was pre-paid and remains buried.  Burial was about $1500 with permits, opening, closing, and headstone.  Plot was pre-paid.

Family member 2: Cremation was pre-paid but there were "extra" charges from the funeral home that added up to around $1200.  Ashes were spread at a farm that the family member was raised on.

This is an area where you could easily spend a lot of money quickly since the funeral homes are first in line with the family and most people aren't going to shop around.

[snowball]

Says she wants to be buried, full funeral etc. But also says she is not planning to set aside any money to pay for her wishes, (or write anything down). Also says she is going to leave all her money (hypothetical whether she will even have any assets by the time she does) to only one of the three siblings. Before my brother died she said he was going to inherit it because he "needed" it more. Now she says the same for my sister. Ironically it is the more responsible siblings who have helped her (she lives with my brother) and also have grandkids, that get cut out. Me and my brother shrug. It's not worth talking about but we asked, why leave things in a way you know will make it more difficult for the living? Responds "why should I care, I'll be dead".

I mean.  She can't have it both ways...

The last bit rings the truest to me, so if she won't care because she'll be dead, then I'd want to take her at her word.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Zamboni]

Sheesh. What snowball said. Since she won’t care, I’d push for absolute cheapest possible route to cleaning up her remains, then a family gathering for scattering ashes from the plastic cup in a free public area.

Also, since she won’t write anything down, then anything that amounts to her estate will be intestate and will be equally divided between her descendants who survive her per stirpes. Sounds like a win for the responsible.

I actually had to talk a friend out of the “leave more to the irresponsible druggie adult child bc he needs it more” mindset. It simply hadn’t occurred to her that doing that might hurt the feelings of her younger two sons, who are very responsible adults and already pretty tired of what a burden their lay about addict older brother is to their mom. Guess enablers just are conditioned to keep on enabling even after they are dead.

[lhamo]

enablers just are conditioned to keep on enabling even after they are dead.

This is an appropriate TL/DR subtitle for this thread!  Not that it should end, but it is the gist of story after story after story.

If you are in a dysfunctional family and somebody dies, put your big kid pants on, draw your boundaries and prepare to defend them. 

[Zamboni]

So @Zamboni several things: first, and most important of which is THAT I AM TERRIBLY SORRY YOU AND YOUR SO ARE HAVING TO GO THROUGH THIS!  That can't be said enough.  This is not normal or humane behavior.   

Seriously.  You two may want to consider something that has helped us in the midst of awful situations: go out and have some fun some nights and try to forget about all of this.  I know it's hard to do that in the midst of a tragedy, but it's also the best medicine, as folks have reminded me over the years (because I'll let the stress of it get to me). 

Now, I can help as to where this is headed, as I have experience dealing with (lots of) conflicts and unreasonable situations.  Actions speak louder than words, and this started with outright fraud and seizure of things that DotL (for short) had no business taking. 

It's headed towards outright fraud and theft.  She's going to camp on the estate, control it, and drain every thing of any possible value.  It's already underway. 

The estate will continue on until she converts everything that she possibly can into cash for herself, the estate goes bankrupt, and things get seized.  Her cash problems will only hasten the speed of the theft. 

This is someone who does what she wants, not someone who cares about paperwork, laws, and rules--that much she has shown you.  I hate to tell you this, but to prepare yourself, I would prepare for maximum ugly here and start establishing those boundaries so that you can stay out of and above the drama. 

Eventually, you're likely to need hard no-contact rules.  Why let her drag your own emotional lives down, rather than shut her off for periods of time, and/or mediate it through a lawyer/trusted friend/someone else/ignore her completely, so that you can stay away from it all.  That path is going to get increasingly attractive over time. 

As I see it, there are two paths here: SO can either jump in, take over the estate, and fight it out (or, rather, employ the lawyers to do so), which would be a large emotional lift and expensive due to DotL and her inevitable shenanigans.  Or you both can walk away, let her trash it all, ignore it all as it circles the drain, but preserve more of your peace and sanity.  And nothing is worth more than peace and sanity...once you don't have it anymore. 

Anyway, I'm sorry once again and wish you nothing but the best in dealing with a truly awful situation.  There's nothing like death and money to bring out the worst in some people.  But thankfully you two have each other to get through this and stay above the fray.

Thanks again for this. We decided to go on vacation to a tropical paradise this past weekend . . . that was a great idea!

Your predictions are so spot on.

Updates about the Destroyer of the Last Will and Testament (DotLWaT!, DotLW for short):

-DotLW got so mad that Mr. Zamboni wouldn't send her money for "the bills" that she threatened no contact with him . . . a threat that of course she just can't make good on because of her continuous need to send rude texts and demand things. And then there was the whole emergence of another copy of a will wrinkle she hadn't anticipated. So she's already followed up several times since then. *Eyeroll*

-Mr. Zamboni has decided that No Contact with DotLW is the only sane strategy from his side . . . so he is not responding.

-As far as I can discern, the named executor in the only copy of a will anyone has seen beside DotLW has thrown in the towel and given the reins over to DotLW. Honestly, everyone is just quietly backing away from the mess with their hands in the air. Other sane sibling is also just saying "whatever, do what you want, but I'm not giving you money" to all demands.

-DotLW has communicated that she is going to obtain the divorce finalization paperwork from the court to negate the named sole inheritor in the will from getting anything. No idea if this is how it works or not, and no idea if DotLW has sought any legal advice.

-DotLW has sent copies of credit card receipts for what she paid for the hastily solo planned over-the-top funeral/burial. Oh, Lordy, I guess it's no surprise that she spread it out over several different credit cards even to the same funeral home. Predictions that she is in financial trouble coming true. She appears to have bought the most expensive plot at the most expensive cemetery in town. Despite the deceased belonging to a large local church for decades, she paid extra to have the service held in the chapel owned by the funeral home instead. And despite having to charge it all on various cards, she is still vowing to spend over $4K additionally for a headstone which she is picking out. According to her texts, she IS doing this and she WILL get her money back and no one better stand in her way! No one else is on board with her plan. Seriously I've purchased cars for less than this theoretical headstone.

-DotLW is whining to extended family that people are not jumping in to pay her back for her ridiculous choices.

-DotLW also sent a copy of her bank statement showing that she is paying the bills of the deceased. These include normal things like utilities on the home and absurd things such as renewing an AARP membership (Um, why?) She is paying these from her personal account, rather than an established estate bank account.

-Although DotLW once said she planned to move into the house left by the deceased, she has reversed course and now says she plans to sell it.

[TomTX]

I was surprised how much it cost, considering there was no funeral (there was graveside service). The plot was already paid for. We did purchase a solid wood casket as that is customary but from another company so "reasonable". 

https://www.costco.com/funeral-caskets.html

[Sibley]

I highly doubt that divorce paperwork is going to make any difference. But it may at least be amusing to watch her try.

It sounds like everyone is deciding to walk away. While a shame to the ideals of law and order, it's probably the most efficient and effective way to avoid a mess. DotLW is going to learn the very hard lesson of karma though. By behaving as she is, she is going to alienate everyone. She's also going to end up completely broke. Which she will then blame on everyone else, conveniently forgetting that she did it to herself.

Glad you got a break from everything at least.

[AMandM]

Even cheaper than Costco, if you don't require varnish:
https://mountmichael.org/mount-michael-abbeys-caskets/

[mm1970]

Says she wants to be buried, full funeral etc. But also says she is not planning to set aside any money to pay for her wishes, (or write anything down). Also says she is going to leave all her money (hypothetical whether she will even have any assets by the time she does) to only one of the three siblings. Before my brother died she said he was going to inherit it because he "needed" it more. Now she says the same for my sister. Ironically it is the more responsible siblings who have helped her (she lives with my brother) and also have grandkids, that get cut out. Me and my brother shrug. It's not worth talking about but we asked, why leave things in a way you know will make it more difficult for the living? Responds "why should I care, I'll be dead".

I mean.  She can't have it both ways...

The last bit rings the truest to me, so if she won't care because she'll be dead, then I'd want to take her at her word.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

+1.  That's how I feel. 

@Zamboni Oooh boy, what a hot mess that is.  Good luck.