Author Topic: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.  (Read 1160364 times)

Hula Hoop

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2500 on: April 06, 2021, 02:53:24 PM »
It's the same here in Italy so I guess this is a European thing. It can lead to some terrible outcomes.  The worst story I heard was many years ago when i first moved here and taught English on the side to make some money. One of my students was a very wealthy, old Italian man who actually spoke great English (which he learned by reading the Economist) but just wanted to chat for practice.  He was a semi-closeted gay man with a long term partner that not everyone knew about.  Anyway, his long lost daughter had come out of the woodwork a few years before we met.  At first, he was delighted. Apparently he had had a girlfriend during his university days and she had become pregnant without his knowledge.  When he met his daughter he spent a lot of time with her, they did DNA tests to confirm paternity and he acknowledged paternity legally.  As soon as he did this, she disappeared.  He was absolutely heartbroken as it was clear that she'd only sought out her father in order to get him to acknowledge paternity and inherit his entire (very sizable) estate when he died.  The saddest thing is that gay marriage didn't exist here in Italy (still doesn't) so his long term partner would have no rights to his estate whereas his rotten daughter would. There was absolutely nothing he could do about this.
Hmmm, in his [fine Italian] shoes, I'd have spent money on my SO in any way possible. Lavish gifts, travel, jewelry, gold coins...

He was extremely wealthy though - owned several apartment buildings in a nice part of town. Seemed to live a life of luxury.  It would be difficult to spent that amount of money on his partner.

Dicey

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2501 on: April 06, 2021, 03:25:40 PM »
It's the same here in Italy so I guess this is a European thing. It can lead to some terrible outcomes.  The worst story I heard was many years ago when i first moved here and taught English on the side to make some money. One of my students was a very wealthy, old Italian man who actually spoke great English (which he learned by reading the Economist) but just wanted to chat for practice.  He was a semi-closeted gay man with a long term partner that not everyone knew about.  Anyway, his long lost daughter had come out of the woodwork a few years before we met.  At first, he was delighted. Apparently he had had a girlfriend during his university days and she had become pregnant without his knowledge.  When he met his daughter he spent a lot of time with her, they did DNA tests to confirm paternity and he acknowledged paternity legally.  As soon as he did this, she disappeared.  He was absolutely heartbroken as it was clear that she'd only sought out her father in order to get him to acknowledge paternity and inherit his entire (very sizable) estate when he died.  The saddest thing is that gay marriage didn't exist here in Italy (still doesn't) so his long term partner would have no rights to his estate whereas his rotten daughter would. There was absolutely nothing he could do about this.
Hmmm, in his [fine Italian] shoes, I'd have spent money on my SO in any way possible. Lavish gifts, travel, jewelry, gold coins...

He was extremely wealthy though - owned several apartment buildings in a nice part of town. Seemed to live a life of luxury.  It would be difficult to spent that amount of money on his partner.
I wouldn't expect that it would be possible to give it all to his partner. Personally, I'd just want to divert enough so that he and the partner weren't completely shafted by the long-lost daughter.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2502 on: April 06, 2021, 03:33:38 PM »
It's the same here in Italy so I guess this is a European thing. It can lead to some terrible outcomes.  The worst story I heard was many years ago when i first moved here and taught English on the side to make some money. One of my students was a very wealthy, old Italian man who actually spoke great English (which he learned by reading the Economist) but just wanted to chat for practice.  He was a semi-closeted gay man with a long term partner that not everyone knew about.  Anyway, his long lost daughter had come out of the woodwork a few years before we met.  At first, he was delighted. Apparently he had had a girlfriend during his university days and she had become pregnant without his knowledge.  When he met his daughter he spent a lot of time with her, they did DNA tests to confirm paternity and he acknowledged paternity legally.  As soon as he did this, she disappeared.  He was absolutely heartbroken as it was clear that she'd only sought out her father in order to get him to acknowledge paternity and inherit his entire (very sizable) estate when he died.  The saddest thing is that gay marriage didn't exist here in Italy (still doesn't) so his long term partner would have no rights to his estate whereas his rotten daughter would. There was absolutely nothing he could do about this.
Hmmm, in his [fine Italian] shoes, I'd have spent money on my SO in any way possible. Lavish gifts, travel, jewelry, gold coins...

He was extremely wealthy though - owned several apartment buildings in a nice part of town. Seemed to live a life of luxury.  It would be difficult to spent that amount of money on his partner.
I wouldn't expect that it would be possible to give it all to his partner. Personally, I'd just want to divert enough so that he and the partner weren't completely shafted by the long-lost daughter.

From what I remember there was a small portion that he could will to his partner but the vast majority would go to rotten daughter automatically.  If it hadn't gone to her it would have gone to his siblings.

TomTX

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2503 on: April 06, 2021, 03:58:03 PM »
It's the same here in Italy so I guess this is a European thing. It can lead to some terrible outcomes.  The worst story I heard was many years ago when i first moved here and taught English on the side to make some money. One of my students was a very wealthy, old Italian man who actually spoke great English (which he learned by reading the Economist) but just wanted to chat for practice.  He was a semi-closeted gay man with a long term partner that not everyone knew about.  Anyway, his long lost daughter had come out of the woodwork a few years before we met.  At first, he was delighted. Apparently he had had a girlfriend during his university days and she had become pregnant without his knowledge.  When he met his daughter he spent a lot of time with her, they did DNA tests to confirm paternity and he acknowledged paternity legally.  As soon as he did this, she disappeared.  He was absolutely heartbroken as it was clear that she'd only sought out her father in order to get him to acknowledge paternity and inherit his entire (very sizable) estate when he died.  The saddest thing is that gay marriage didn't exist here in Italy (still doesn't) so his long term partner would have no rights to his estate whereas his rotten daughter would. There was absolutely nothing he could do about this.
Hmmm, in his [fine Italian] shoes, I'd have spent money on my SO in any way possible. Lavish gifts, travel, jewelry, gold coins...

Establish residency in a country with sane inheritance laws, or put everything into a trust/corporation/whatever legal structure with the partner as beneficiary.

I don't know if it's the same in Italy, but in the USA it's pretty simple to have money, stocks, bonds and such bypass probate entirely. Set up a "payable on death" beneficiary. Estate never even sees the money. Real estate ownership can be structured with right of survivorship. Etc.

If you're even moderately wealthy, there are always ways to do what you want with your money (for the most part.) Find a good estate lawyer and get it done.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2504 on: April 06, 2021, 04:12:38 PM »
It's the same here in Italy so I guess this is a European thing. It can lead to some terrible outcomes.  The worst story I heard was many years ago when i first moved here and taught English on the side to make some money. One of my students was a very wealthy, old Italian man who actually spoke great English (which he learned by reading the Economist) but just wanted to chat for practice.  He was a semi-closeted gay man with a long term partner that not everyone knew about.  Anyway, his long lost daughter had come out of the woodwork a few years before we met.  At first, he was delighted. Apparently he had had a girlfriend during his university days and she had become pregnant without his knowledge.  When he met his daughter he spent a lot of time with her, they did DNA tests to confirm paternity and he acknowledged paternity legally.  As soon as he did this, she disappeared.  He was absolutely heartbroken as it was clear that she'd only sought out her father in order to get him to acknowledge paternity and inherit his entire (very sizable) estate when he died.  The saddest thing is that gay marriage didn't exist here in Italy (still doesn't) so his long term partner would have no rights to his estate whereas his rotten daughter would. There was absolutely nothing he could do about this.
Hmmm, in his [fine Italian] shoes, I'd have spent money on my SO in any way possible. Lavish gifts, travel, jewelry, gold coins...

Establish residency in a country with sane inheritance laws, or put everything into a trust/corporation/whatever legal structure with the partner as beneficiary.

I don't know if it's the same in Italy, but in the USA it's pretty simple to have money, stocks, bonds and such bypass probate entirely. Set up a "payable on death" beneficiary. Estate never even sees the money. Real estate ownership can be structured with right of survivorship. Etc.

If you're even moderately wealthy, there are always ways to do what you want with your money (for the most part.) Find a good estate lawyer and get it done.

The point of my post is that inheritance laws are completely different here from the US.  I don't think that what you're suggesting is possible under italian law but if there are any italian lawyers on the forum they could correct me.

SwordGuy

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2505 on: April 06, 2021, 04:50:37 PM »
Set up a real estate investing company, transfer ownership of the properties to said company, and then sell the desired percentage of ownership to his partner.   Set up payment terms that require no money down and gift the year's payment amount to his partner, who then pays their payment and hands it back.   Set up the terms so the debt is considered paid in full upon his death.   

Lots of other things for the lawyer to double-check, but that's the start of how to try to do it.   Of course, he had better (rightly) trust his partner.   Then again, without the gifts the partner might not be able to make the payments and would lose out on their investment.   

Villanelle

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2506 on: April 06, 2021, 05:15:35 PM »
It's the same here in Italy so I guess this is a European thing. It can lead to some terrible outcomes.  The worst story I heard was many years ago when i first moved here and taught English on the side to make some money. One of my students was a very wealthy, old Italian man who actually spoke great English (which he learned by reading the Economist) but just wanted to chat for practice.  He was a semi-closeted gay man with a long term partner that not everyone knew about.  Anyway, his long lost daughter had come out of the woodwork a few years before we met.  At first, he was delighted. Apparently he had had a girlfriend during his university days and she had become pregnant without his knowledge.  When he met his daughter he spent a lot of time with her, they did DNA tests to confirm paternity and he acknowledged paternity legally.  As soon as he did this, she disappeared.  He was absolutely heartbroken as it was clear that she'd only sought out her father in order to get him to acknowledge paternity and inherit his entire (very sizable) estate when he died.  The saddest thing is that gay marriage didn't exist here in Italy (still doesn't) so his long term partner would have no rights to his estate whereas his rotten daughter would. There was absolutely nothing he could do about this.
Hmmm, in his [fine Italian] shoes, I'd have spent money on my SO in any way possible. Lavish gifts, travel, jewelry, gold coins...

He was extremely wealthy though - owned several apartment buildings in a nice part of town. Seemed to live a life of luxury.  It would be difficult to spent that amount of money on his partner.
I wouldn't expect that it would be possible to give it all to his partner. Personally, I'd just want to divert enough so that he and the partner weren't completely shafted by the long-lost daughter.

Yeah, I'd be buying gifts for that partner that held their value, even if the partner didn't actually like them.  Jewelry, precious stones, truly valuable antiques and art, etc.  Not hard to spend a *lot* of money on someone.  Gift them one Picasso and that should more or less take care of most of it!

Dicey

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2507 on: April 06, 2021, 11:36:31 PM »
^^That's exactly what I had in mind. Stuff the partner could easily sell later. ^^

Imma

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2508 on: April 07, 2021, 04:05:48 AM »
I have absolutely no idea how that works in Italy, but in the Netherlands, gifts over about €3000 to someone who is not a relative (blood or by marriage)  are taxable. And any gifts that are gifted in the 6 months before death have to be returned to the estate, to make sure people aren't going to give away a large part of the estate when they know they are going to die, to avoid inheritance tax. Depending on the circumstances, if an elderly person would give large gifts to someone before their death, the heirs could potentially claim that that someone abused the trust and the age of the person leaving the inheritance and it could go to court.

It happened in my family when an elderly person died, that person had no children or spouse but lots of nieces and nephews. One of them spent a lot of time caring for that person and in return for that they would get money. Not significant amounts, something like €50/100 a week. People seriously considered going to court over that, but in the end the size of the estate was not worth it. But inheriting equal shares of the "family money" was something that everyone considered to be a birthright, even though one was a carer and the others were not. I was not an heir of that estate, but I knew my family member was mentally competent, no one took advantage of them, so I feel they absolutely had a right to give their own money to their carer.

In our country only parents can't disinherit their children, so if you don't have children you can totally disinherit your siblings or nieces/nephews, but it would be extremely unusual in my social circle.

Hula Hoop

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2509 on: April 07, 2021, 02:29:52 PM »
Imma - that sounds very familiar so I'm pretty sure Italian law is similar. 

Another inheritance drama I heard about here was an old man without a spouse or kids who lived in our old building.  He left his apartment to the doorman and his wife when he died after a long illness.  The doorman and wife had been taking care of him, bringing him food, taking him to doctor's appointments etc. for years.  Several people in the building claimed that they were only doing all this in order to manipulate the old man to leave them his apartment. At one point one of these neighbors came to our door to try to convince my husband to join them in digging up the old man's long lost relatives in his home village (I think they said that they were cousins) and convincing them to sue the doorman and his wife for stealing their rightful inheritance.  My husband told them to go away and never ask him this again.  Apparently these cousins in the old man's birth village, who hadn't seen him in many years and didn't even know that he had died, had a right to half (or it may have been three quarters) of his apartment because they were his closest relatives.  Luckily for everyone, they declined to sue so the doorman and his wife got to keep the apartment.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 02:31:46 PM by Hula Hoop »

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2510 on: April 07, 2021, 03:17:29 PM »
I have absolutely no idea how that works in Italy, but in the Netherlands, gifts over about €3000 to someone who is not a relative (blood or by marriage)  are taxable. And any gifts that are gifted in the 6 months before death have to be returned to the estate, to make sure people aren't going to give away a large part of the estate when they know they are going to die, to avoid inheritance tax. Depending on the circumstances, if an elderly person would give large gifts to someone before their death, the heirs could potentially claim that that someone abused the trust and the age of the person leaving the inheritance and it could go to court.

It happened in my family when an elderly person died, that person had no children or spouse but lots of nieces and nephews. One of them spent a lot of time caring for that person and in return for that they would get money. Not significant amounts, something like €50/100 a week. People seriously considered going to court over that, but in the end the size of the estate was not worth it. But inheriting equal shares of the "family money" was something that everyone considered to be a birthright, even though one was a carer and the others were not. I was not an heir of that estate, but I knew my family member was mentally competent, no one took advantage of them, so I feel they absolutely had a right to give their own money to their carer.

In our country only parents can't disinherit their children, so if you don't have children you can totally disinherit your siblings or nieces/nephews, but it would be extremely unusual in my social circle.

How are inheritance taxes structured in the Netherlands?     This particular tax grab is largely missing in Canada, I'm curious what the future may bring.

Imma

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2511 on: April 08, 2021, 12:49:50 AM »
I have absolutely no idea how that works in Italy, but in the Netherlands, gifts over about €3000 to someone who is not a relative (blood or by marriage)  are taxable. And any gifts that are gifted in the 6 months before death have to be returned to the estate, to make sure people aren't going to give away a large part of the estate when they know they are going to die, to avoid inheritance tax. Depending on the circumstances, if an elderly person would give large gifts to someone before their death, the heirs could potentially claim that that someone abused the trust and the age of the person leaving the inheritance and it could go to court.

It happened in my family when an elderly person died, that person had no children or spouse but lots of nieces and nephews. One of them spent a lot of time caring for that person and in return for that they would get money. Not significant amounts, something like €50/100 a week. People seriously considered going to court over that, but in the end the size of the estate was not worth it. But inheriting equal shares of the "family money" was something that everyone considered to be a birthright, even though one was a carer and the others were not. I was not an heir of that estate, but I knew my family member was mentally competent, no one took advantage of them, so I feel they absolutely had a right to give their own money to their carer.

In our country only parents can't disinherit their children, so if you don't have children you can totally disinherit your siblings or nieces/nephews, but it would be extremely unusual in my social circle.

How are inheritance taxes structured in the Netherlands?     This particular tax grab is largely missing in Canada, I'm curious what the future may bring.

Inheritance taxes have been a thing since the mid-19th century and were at that point a way to deal with aristocratic landownership. And by the turn of the 20th  century, the aristocracy's power over the land had been broken. My family were able to set themselves up as independent farmers in the late 19th century and without inheritance tax, that wouldn't have happened. The local lord of the manor would never voluntarily sell to his former tenant farmers. Tenant farmers had few rights in those days, they could be kicked out of their farm if they converted to a different religion and if they wanted to move they needed a good reference from their old lord to secure a new tenancy elsewhere. So for my ancestors to start owning their own property was a massive thing.

A part of the inheritance is tax-free, then there's a portion that is taxed at a lower rate, then anything over that is taxed at full rate. For a spouse or legal partner, something like €675.000 is tax free and €125.000 over that is taxed at a lower rate of 10%. So only if the estate is larger than €800.000, a spouse has to pay 20% tax. So that's something you'd only have to deal with if your total net worth is over 1,6 million. The average inheritance from a spouse is €80.000, so very few spouses actually pay inheritance tax.

What bothers me though, as a childless person, that there are great tax advantages to leaving money or a business to a spouse or a direct descendent, but if you are leaving money to someone who is not a blood relative, it's taxed at an extremely high rate (tax-free portion of €2000, 30% tax over the next €125.000, 40% tax over the rest of the estate). I can give away some money before death as a tax-free gift, but that's only €3000/year. So unfortunately a large part of my estate will go to the taxman for the simple reason that I did not have children - and I've already saved society a fortune by not having them.

SwordGuy

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2512 on: April 08, 2021, 07:27:23 AM »
but if you are leaving money to someone who is not a blood relative, it's taxed at an extremely high rate (tax-free portion of €2000, 30% tax over the next €125.000, 40% tax over the rest of the estate). I can give away some money before death as a tax-free gift, but that's only €3000/year.
Set up a passive business for with them with the terms that their ownership of the business increases because they are doing the work on the business and you aren't.  Then it's not a gift and each year the percentage that would be taxed would drop. Rental real estate would be an example, another would be sharecropped farmland.   If you can set it up as a joint tenancy with write of survivorship, they own it when you die.

Catbert

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2513 on: April 08, 2021, 10:53:24 AM »
Fascinating.  I wonder whether Swedes make different decisions about supporting their children financially than people do who live in places where you can leave different amounts to different children.

Did that happen to Larsen's estate because he didn't have a will? Or did he have a will naming his partner but that will was illegal under Swedish law?

Does any Swede have any leeway in how to leave money? What happens if I have no husband, no children, no siblings, and my parents are both dead?

My memory of the Steig Larrson case:  Steig Larrson and his partner had been together their entire adult life.  They were broke reporters owning nothing of particular value and no will.  He wrote 3 books (and outlined 7 more).  Shortly after a book deal was signed and before they were published he died suddenly (heart attack?).  The books were published posthumously and were surprise best sellers.  His brother (and father?) inherited his entire estate.  His partner may have had physical possession of the outlines but no right to use them.  I may have some details wrong but really in this case what happened is exactly what would happen in the US in similar circumstances.

Imma

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2514 on: April 08, 2021, 02:31:21 PM »
but if you are leaving money to someone who is not a blood relative, it's taxed at an extremely high rate (tax-free portion of €2000, 30% tax over the next €125.000, 40% tax over the rest of the estate). I can give away some money before death as a tax-free gift, but that's only €3000/year.
Set up a passive business for with them with the terms that their ownership of the business increases because they are doing the work on the business and you aren't.  Then it's not a gift and each year the percentage that would be taxed would drop. Rental real estate would be an example, another would be sharecropped farmland.   If you can set it up as a joint tenancy with write of survivorship, they own it when you die.

You're right, there are many tax planning options. Right now I'm hesitating to start that because I'm not FI yet and a lot of those options are not-reversible. But I am slowly starting to plan for the day I have more money than I'll ever need.

My mother recently disclosed to me how much I'd inherit if she were to die today (I'm glad we're open about that in my family). It's more than I thought it would be. She started over from less than 0 when she divorced in middle age but through smart decisions and frugal life she's now doing just as well as many married couples in their 60s are. She enjoys her job and isn't planning on retiring anytime soon. Judging by the lives and deaths of her parents and grandparents she could have 25 good healthy years ahead of her and then die very quickly and unexpectedly (and needing very little care). At that point I may not need any inheritance at all and I could just choose to not accept any money from her estate so my siblings get more (they'll need it more too), I could just take some sentimental things. That would be more tax efficient since I'd want money from her estate to go to my siblings after my death. I've told my mother she should take the trips she's always talked about and spend money on what makes her happy, she worked hard for that money, but she's frugal, she's not going to spend much.

We own our family home in joint tenancy with right of survivorship but in our country that still makes you liable for inheritance tax. We chose the right of survivorship as an extra protection in case any of our relatives would think of contesting the will. When we bought the house was our only real asset. I don't think any of our heirs could ever succesfully contest the will, but in case someone tried I want Mr Imma to have full control over our house immediately, even though he may have to wait for the rest of my estate.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2515 on: April 09, 2021, 08:38:04 AM »
Fascinating.  I wonder whether Swedes make different decisions about supporting their children financially than people do who live in places where you can leave different amounts to different children.

Did that happen to Larsen's estate because he didn't have a will? Or did he have a will naming his partner but that will was illegal under Swedish law?

Does any Swede have any leeway in how to leave money? What happens if I have no husband, no children, no siblings, and my parents are both dead?

My memory of the Steig Larrson case:  Steig Larrson and his partner had been together their entire adult life.  They were broke reporters owning nothing of particular value and no will.  He wrote 3 books (and outlined 7 more).  Shortly after a book deal was signed and before they were published he died suddenly (heart attack?).  The books were published posthumously and were surprise best sellers.  His brother (and father?) inherited his entire estate.  His partner may have had physical possession of the outlines but no right to use them.  I may have some details wrong but really in this case what happened is exactly what would happen in the US in similar circumstances.

It sounds like his partner still could’ve made out like a bandit by selling the physical objects she owned, the remaining manuscripts, to Larrson’s  family who owned the rights to publish them.


Villanelle

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2516 on: April 09, 2021, 12:27:35 PM »
Fascinating.  I wonder whether Swedes make different decisions about supporting their children financially than people do who live in places where you can leave different amounts to different children.

Did that happen to Larsen's estate because he didn't have a will? Or did he have a will naming his partner but that will was illegal under Swedish law?

Does any Swede have any leeway in how to leave money? What happens if I have no husband, no children, no siblings, and my parents are both dead?

My memory of the Steig Larrson case:  Steig Larrson and his partner had been together their entire adult life.  They were broke reporters owning nothing of particular value and no will.  He wrote 3 books (and outlined 7 more).  Shortly after a book deal was signed and before they were published he died suddenly (heart attack?).  The books were published posthumously and were surprise best sellers.  His brother (and father?) inherited his entire estate.  His partner may have had physical possession of the outlines but no right to use them.  I may have some details wrong but really in this case what happened is exactly what would happen in the US in similar circumstances.

It sounds like his partner still could’ve made out like a bandit by selling the physical objects she owned, the remaining manuscripts, to Larrson’s  family who owned the rights to publish them.

That depends.  If the outlines were his at the time of death, those would have inherited by the family.  If she owned them, she probably could have done that.  But that would have required him to give her outlines for stories he hadn't actually written, which seems unlikely to happen.  I'm a writer and I have all sorts of outlines and partially written things.  I would never say to anyone, "these belong to you" both because they have no value (which is how Larrson would have perceived them at the time) and because they are sort of personal-feeling.  Why would you think to gift them to anyone else? And if he didn't specifically do that, they were his, not the partners (who I've assumed is a 'her', mostly for the sake of clarity so I can use different pronouns) so is family owned them--both the physical objects and the intellectual and creative property. 

Now, I'd hope in that case that the family would be decent and share at least some of their windfall with their son/brother's. That seems the morally correct choice.  But not everyone strives for "moral" in these cases, and even when they do, the bottom line they arrive at as fair my not feel fair to the partner.  Should have have given her half?  90%?  All except death and funeral expenses?  What is "fair"?  What would Steig have wanted?  Absent a specific conversation, there's no way to know that.

This thread caused me to google their situation.  Supposedly, a big part of the reason they didn't marry is that he was a political journalist who had made enemies (and a time when Sweden had a high-profile murdering of a political journalist, even).  Marrying would have required publishing their address.  And she also used to sometimes hide the identity of her partner from people, for their safety.  But it sounds like they had actually planned to marry, finally, because he had gotten a book deal and was moving out of political journalism (at least partly).   Apparently (I don't know if this fact is disputed) they had planned a birthday party at which they planned to surprise the guests with the knowledge that it was actually a wedding reception.  But he died before it happened.  And because of that, she got nothing (though she ended up getting to keep their apartment, though she had to fight the family even for that).  She also claims to have been active in advising him on his writing, making many suggestions he used in the book. And she claims that many things the family did with the estate were actively against his wishes.  he had refused to let the Swedish publishers change the name he had chose for the book (Men who Hate Women) so clearly that was important to him, but the family let the US (and other) publishers change it to what we know--The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. 

It's a sad story. 

Imma

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2517 on: April 09, 2021, 02:30:49 PM »
I wonder why he didn't leave a will. It sounds like they were together for ages, and lived like a married couple but didn't want to go through the formalities for understandable reasons.  From a quick google search it seems like he was long-term estranged from his father and brother and had been engaged to his partner for 20 years. Maybe because he figured he'd have nothing of value to leave her? But it seems like at the very least they owned a flat together and he must have had some personal property. Even if he hadn't become famous after death, you'd think he'd wanted that to go to his partner rather than his stranged family.

iris lily

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« Reply #2518 on: April 09, 2021, 02:35:18 PM »
I wonder why he didn't leave a will. It sounds like they were together for ages, and lived like a married couple but didn't want to go through the formalities for understandable reasons.  From a quick google search it seems like he was long-term estranged from his father and brother and had been engaged to his partner for 20 years. Maybe because he figured he'd have nothing of value to leave her? But it seems like at the very least they owned a flat together and he must have had some personal property. Even if he hadn't become famous after death, you'd think he'd wanted that to go to his partner rather than his stranged family.

His isnt one of those countries that awarded his assets to his legal relatives?

I do find that idea of European countries shocking. Damn, it’s my money, the last thing I want is my $3 million going to my brothers and sisters nieces and nephews. Well they are getting some of it in our current well, they’re organizations I would much rather leave money to.

So in these European countries spoken of above, do organizations i.e. charities get anything upon someone’s death?

merula

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« Reply #2519 on: April 09, 2021, 03:18:40 PM »
I wonder why he didn't leave a will. It sounds like they were together for ages, and lived like a married couple but didn't want to go through the formalities for understandable reasons.  From a quick google search it seems like he was long-term estranged from his father and brother and had been engaged to his partner for 20 years. Maybe because he figured he'd have nothing of value to leave her? But it seems like at the very least they owned a flat together and he must have had some personal property. Even if he hadn't become famous after death, you'd think he'd wanted that to go to his partner rather than his stranged family.

His isnt one of those countries that awarded his assets to his legal relatives?

I do find that idea of European countries shocking. Damn, it’s my money, the last thing I want is my $3 million going to my brothers and sisters nieces and nephews. Well they are getting some of it in our current well, they’re organizations I would much rather leave money to.

So in these European countries spoken of above, do organizations i.e. charities get anything upon someone’s death?

So many people don't think they need wills if they don't have kids, or don't have significant assets. If he'd had a will, he could've done whatever he wanted with his assets, but he didn't. And even in the countries that require leaving some amount to immediate family, there's nothing to prevent you from giving to charity instead of your nieces/nephews.

Imma

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2520 on: April 09, 2021, 03:28:30 PM »
I wonder why he didn't leave a will. It sounds like they were together for ages, and lived like a married couple but didn't want to go through the formalities for understandable reasons.  From a quick google search it seems like he was long-term estranged from his father and brother and had been engaged to his partner for 20 years. Maybe because he figured he'd have nothing of value to leave her? But it seems like at the very least they owned a flat together and he must have had some personal property. Even if he hadn't become famous after death, you'd think he'd wanted that to go to his partner rather than his stranged family.

His isnt one of those countries that awarded his assets to his legal relatives?

I do find that idea of European countries shocking. Damn, it’s my money, the last thing I want is my $3 million going to my brothers and sisters nieces and nephews. Well they are getting some of it in our current well, they’re organizations I would much rather leave money to.

So in these European countries spoken of above, do organizations i.e. charities get anything upon someone’s death?

I don't know about Sweden, but in my country (the Netherlands) only parents are obliged to leave something to their children. If you don't have a spouse or kids it's just tax disadvantaged to let non-family inherit, it's not impossible. A child has a birthright to their parents' estate, but a sibling or niece/nephew doesn't, there's only a strong moral obligation in my social circle, and a tax advantage.

In my country, charities can get inheritances tax-free. If I wanted to leave my estate to a friend they'd pay a fortune in taxes but a charity would not have to pay that.

Plina

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« Reply #2521 on: April 09, 2021, 04:14:39 PM »
I wonder why he didn't leave a will. It sounds like they were together for ages, and lived like a married couple but didn't want to go through the formalities for understandable reasons.  From a quick google search it seems like he was long-term estranged from his father and brother and had been engaged to his partner for 20 years. Maybe because he figured he'd have nothing of value to leave her? But it seems like at the very least they owned a flat together and he must have had some personal property. Even if he hadn't become famous after death, you'd think he'd wanted that to go to his partner rather than his stranged family.

His isnt one of those countries that awarded his assets to his legal relatives?

I do find that idea of European countries shocking. Damn, it’s my money, the last thing I want is my $3 million going to my brothers and sisters nieces and nephews. Well they are getting some of it in our current well, they’re organizations I would much rather leave money to.

So in these European countries spoken of above, do organizations i.e. charities get anything upon someone’s death?

I don't know about Sweden, but in my country (the Netherlands) only parents are obliged to leave something to their children. If you don't have a spouse or kids it's just tax disadvantaged to let non-family inherit, it's not impossible. A child has a birthright to their parents' estate, but a sibling or niece/nephew doesn't, there's only a strong moral obligation in my social circle, and a tax advantage.

In my country, charities can get inheritances tax-free. If I wanted to leave my estate to a friend they'd pay a fortune in taxes but a charity would not have to pay that.

You can exclude everyone except your married spouse or kids. You are under no obligation to leave anything to your parents, siblings, nieces or nephews. I would not say there is a moral obligation to leave your money to nieces or nephews in Sweden but it is common that they receive the inheritance because there is no will or there is a will to a favourite among nieces or nephews. There is no point in having a will if your inheritance goes to the one that you want to anyway as we don’t have an estatetax there is no reason to make extra hassle to avoid taxes.

I would say it is less common to give to charities but it also exists. We fund a lot of what your charities fund already through taxes.

In Larsson case it is pretty simple legally. If there is no will, the partner don’t inherit. You can pretty much look up everyones adresses on internet if they are not made secret due to some threat, which happens only in extreme cases. If you Google me you would get my adress, birthday, who I am living with, how much my apartment is worth and my neighbours, my vehicules and if you paid income. You can also call the tax authority to get the same information as well as the social security number. The telephonenumber is pretty much the only thing that you can hide. So I don’t believe the adress theory. If you have protection it would not be realised due to a marriage.

I believe it was one of the cases were they could not be bothered to do wills. In Sweden there is a societal expectation that both parties support themselves so I am not that surprised that there was no will. I had friends that got  married after being together for 20 years, when he got terminal cancer probably to make things easier when the inevitable happened.

Mighty Eyebrows

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2522 on: April 09, 2021, 10:37:10 PM »
In Larsson case it is pretty simple legally. If there is no will, the partner don’t inherit.

Amazing. It does show how different laws are around the world. In British Columbia, if you have cohabited for 2 years you are considered married. Dying without a will causes the estate to be handled by the government, so other family members could have also made claims, but (without kids) his partner would have had the strongest claim.


Plina

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2523 on: April 09, 2021, 11:54:09 PM »
In Larsson case it is pretty simple legally. If there is no will, the partner don’t inherit.

Amazing. It does show how different laws are around the world. In British Columbia, if you have cohabited for 2 years you are considered married. Dying without a will causes the estate to be handled by the government, so other family members could have also made claims, but (without kids) his partner would have had the strongest claim.

The heirs handle the estate together her. When my fathers uncle without spouse or kids died my father and a cousin stepped in and handled the funeral and the estate. In this case there are about 20 nieces and nephews that inherited because of lack of will. They hired someone to make a list of the inventory. It was made based on the cousins knowledge of the content. Most of the cousins gave a power of attorney to the person hired. The list was submitted to the tax authority who approved it.The estate is now ready to be divided. It would have been a pretty standard case if there had not been a property that is coowned.

If the heirs can’t agree on how to handle the estate or to split the estate then the court can appoint a lawyer to handle the estate. It is pretty rare because the cost of lawyer will in most case eat up the estate and most of the people don’t want to end up with a legal bill.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 11:56:09 PM by Plina »

lemanfan

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2524 on: April 10, 2021, 03:52:28 AM »
This thread made me realize I need a will.  If nothing else but to prevent my money going to the Swedish Inheritance Fund if the unexpected happens. 

@Plina check out https://mrkoll.se/  - there you might find even more info available about us, free for anyone and online.  :)


lemanfan

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« Reply #2525 on: April 10, 2021, 04:28:12 AM »
OK, I've spammed this thread enough without posting a story, so let me post one which might be a bit different drama than most...

My paternal grandfather had six siblings. One sister and five brothers. Four of the brothers emigrated in the early 1900:s and two ended up in Canada with large families and to in California but left no kids (at least not known to us).  One sister and two brothers thus stayed in Sweden. 

The remaining Swedish brother had a partly hard life, where he survived both his son and his wife by decades, but I remember him as the joker of the family - always in a good mood and always making jokes or playing pranks.  I think he drank quite a bit.

In the mid 1980:ies he passed away and my father as his nephew was then one of the closest living relatives - but there was scores of more distant relatives in Sweden, Canada, UK and possibly in the USA.  I was in the early teens at the time but I helped my father and another relative to clean out the apartment and when doing that we found an envelope addressed to the survivors of his death.

So we opened the envelope, which gave directions to a hidden cabinet in the apartment, which in turn directed us to an urn in a bookshelf... and then a treasure hunt took place with one clue leading to the next in several steps - until we finally found a key to a security box at the local bank.

At the bank, the manager first wouldn't let us open the safety box since all affected relatives was not there, but after a long discussion and a call to a lawyer, we were finally allowed to open the box.  And in the box we found just an old rubber band.

He had managed to play one final joke on us. Wherever he ended up in the afterlife, I'm sure he giggled like I remember him doing when thinking of this.  :)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2021, 04:42:40 AM by lemanfan »

Plina

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« Reply #2526 on: April 10, 2021, 05:04:52 AM »
This thread made me realize I need a will.  If nothing else but to prevent my money going to the Swedish Inheritance Fund if the unexpected happens. 

@Plina check out https://mrkoll.se/  - there you might find even more info available about us, free for anyone and online.  :)

Nice, it only gets worse.

 I will wait with the will while my parents are alive but thereafter I will deal with getting one as I don’t want the money spent on some thing that I would probably consider stupid by my siblings. So either it goes to my sisters kids depending on if I like what they become or charity.

TomTX

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2527 on: April 10, 2021, 07:10:25 AM »
but if you are leaving money to someone who is not a blood relative, it's taxed at an extremely high rate (tax-free portion of €2000, 30% tax over the next €125.000, 40% tax over the rest of the estate). I can give away some money before death as a tax-free gift, but that's only €3000/year.
Set up a passive business for with them with the terms that their ownership of the business increases because they are doing the work on the business and you aren't.  Then it's not a gift and each year the percentage that would be taxed would drop. Rental real estate would be an example, another would be sharecropped farmland.   If you can set it up as a joint tenancy with write of survivorship, they own it when you die.

Yep. There is almost always some kind of arrangement where you can legally avoid estate taxes if you plan early enough. Which is why I originally suggested an estate lawyer (or whatever the Italian equivalent is).

iris lily

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2528 on: April 10, 2021, 08:45:25 AM »
Lemanfan, I loved your story!

Dicey

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2529 on: April 10, 2021, 09:03:56 AM »
Lemanfan, I loved your story!
Me, too!

Wolfpack Mustachian

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« Reply #2530 on: April 10, 2021, 12:58:47 PM »
Lemanfan, I loved your story!
Me, too!
It was so cool. I really, really want to do this now!

Sayyadina

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2531 on: April 10, 2021, 02:02:16 PM »
It was heartwarming! Not usually what I expect from this thread...

iris lily

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« Reply #2532 on: April 10, 2021, 02:29:15 PM »
This practical joke-playing uncle gave a wonderful legacy to those left behind: a memory that makes them smile plus the best cocktail party story ever!

talltexan

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« Reply #2533 on: April 12, 2021, 08:31:54 AM »
Indeed, one must wonder how much the lawyer billed for the phone call with the banker. That may well be among the world's most expensive rubber bands!

DadJokes

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« Reply #2534 on: April 15, 2021, 06:22:21 AM »
OK, I've spammed this thread enough without posting a story, so let me post one which might be a bit different drama than most...

...

He had managed to play one final joke on us. Wherever he ended up in the afterlife, I'm sure he giggled like I remember him doing when thinking of this.  :)

Absolutely beautiful. Thanks for sharing that.

bluebelle

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2535 on: April 15, 2021, 09:14:02 AM »
I have absolutely no idea how that works in Italy, but in the Netherlands, gifts over about €3000 to someone who is not a relative (blood or by marriage)  are taxable. And any gifts that are gifted in the 6 months before death have to be returned to the estate, to make sure people aren't going to give away a large part of the estate when they know they are going to die, to avoid inheritance tax. Depending on the circumstances, if an elderly person would give large gifts to someone before their death, the heirs could potentially claim that that someone abused the trust and the age of the person leaving the inheritance and it could go to court.

It happened in my family when an elderly person died, that person had no children or spouse but lots of nieces and nephews. One of them spent a lot of time caring for that person and in return for that they would get money. Not significant amounts, something like €50/100 a week. People seriously considered going to court over that, but in the end the size of the estate was not worth it. But inheriting equal shares of the "family money" was something that everyone considered to be a birthright, even though one was a carer and the others were not. I was not an heir of that estate, but I knew my family member was mentally competent, no one took advantage of them, so I feel they absolutely had a right to give their own money to their carer.

In our country only parents can't disinherit their children, so if you don't have children you can totally disinherit your siblings or nieces/nephews, but it would be extremely unusual in my social circle.

How are inheritance taxes structured in the Netherlands?     This particular tax grab is largely missing in Canada, I'm curious what the future may bring.
not so much missing as paid a different way.   When someone dies, without a spouse, everything they own is deemed 'sold' at time of death and any capital gains are taxed to the estate, even RRSPs and RRIFs.   If the deceased has a spouse, RRIFs and RRSPs can transfer without tax, primary residence is also excluded.   So the deceased pays the taxes, not the one inheriting.

Imma

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2536 on: April 15, 2021, 09:33:58 AM »
I have absolutely no idea how that works in Italy, but in the Netherlands, gifts over about €3000 to someone who is not a relative (blood or by marriage)  are taxable. And any gifts that are gifted in the 6 months before death have to be returned to the estate, to make sure people aren't going to give away a large part of the estate when they know they are going to die, to avoid inheritance tax. Depending on the circumstances, if an elderly person would give large gifts to someone before their death, the heirs could potentially claim that that someone abused the trust and the age of the person leaving the inheritance and it could go to court.

It happened in my family when an elderly person died, that person had no children or spouse but lots of nieces and nephews. One of them spent a lot of time caring for that person and in return for that they would get money. Not significant amounts, something like €50/100 a week. People seriously considered going to court over that, but in the end the size of the estate was not worth it. But inheriting equal shares of the "family money" was something that everyone considered to be a birthright, even though one was a carer and the others were not. I was not an heir of that estate, but I knew my family member was mentally competent, no one took advantage of them, so I feel they absolutely had a right to give their own money to their carer.

In our country only parents can't disinherit their children, so if you don't have children you can totally disinherit your siblings or nieces/nephews, but it would be extremely unusual in my social circle.

How are inheritance taxes structured in the Netherlands?     This particular tax grab is largely missing in Canada, I'm curious what the future may bring.
not so much missing as paid a different way.   When someone dies, without a spouse, everything they own is deemed 'sold' at time of death and any capital gains are taxed to the estate, even RRSPs and RRIFs.   If the deceased has a spouse, RRIFs and RRSPs can transfer without tax, primary residence is also excluded.   So the deceased pays the taxes, not the one inheriting.

We have no capital gains tax at all, so I guess that's the difference.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2537 on: April 15, 2021, 10:17:06 AM »
not so much missing as paid a different way.   When someone dies, without a spouse, everything they own is deemed 'sold' at time of death and any capital gains are taxed to the estate, even RRSPs and RRIFs.   If the deceased has a spouse, RRIFs and RRSPs can transfer without tax, primary residence is also excluded.   So the deceased pays the taxes, not the one inheriting.
Isn't that pretty much the same thing?  Either pay taxes, then distribute, vs distribute, then pay taxes?

SwordGuy

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« Reply #2538 on: April 15, 2021, 10:51:58 AM »
not so much missing as paid a different way.   When someone dies, without a spouse, everything they own is deemed 'sold' at time of death and any capital gains are taxed to the estate, even RRSPs and RRIFs.   If the deceased has a spouse, RRIFs and RRSPs can transfer without tax, primary residence is also excluded.   So the deceased pays the taxes, not the one inheriting.
Isn't that pretty much the same thing?  Either pay taxes, then distribute, vs distribute, then pay taxes?

No, it's not necessarily at ALL the same thing.   

If the estate owes taxes it can't pay, in one case you might inherit nothing and in the other you inherit the debt!

However, if debt can't be inherited without voluntarily accepting real property that the debt is attached to AND the tax is progressively tied to income (i.e., the more income the higher the effective rate of taxation), then an estate divided into multiple parts might pay more tax than the individuals only being taxed on their share might pay.   And if their was only one inheritor, the inheritor might pay more tax in total because they have their own income added in. 

:)

marty998

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2539 on: April 22, 2021, 01:39:24 AM »
I wonder why he didn't leave a will. It sounds like they were together for ages, and lived like a married couple but didn't want to go through the formalities for understandable reasons.  From a quick google search it seems like he was long-term estranged from his father and brother and had been engaged to his partner for 20 years. Maybe because he figured he'd have nothing of value to leave her? But it seems like at the very least they owned a flat together and he must have had some personal property. Even if he hadn't become famous after death, you'd think he'd wanted that to go to his partner rather than his stranged family.

His isnt one of those countries that awarded his assets to his legal relatives?

I do find that idea of European countries shocking. Damn, it’s my money, the last thing I want is my $3 million going to my brothers and sisters nieces and nephews. Well they are getting some of it in our current well, they’re organizations I would much rather leave money to.

So in these European countries spoken of above, do organizations i.e. charities get anything upon someone’s death?

Late to this discussion but I'm starting to understand why Regicide was so common among European royalty....

Capsu78

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2540 on: April 22, 2021, 10:09:41 AM »
Here is a pretty good discussion of where to put your will over on Bogleheads.

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=337890

Plina

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« Reply #2541 on: April 22, 2021, 11:20:23 AM »
I wonder why he didn't leave a will. It sounds like they were together for ages, and lived like a married couple but didn't want to go through the formalities for understandable reasons.  From a quick google search it seems like he was long-term estranged from his father and brother and had been engaged to his partner for 20 years. Maybe because he figured he'd have nothing of value to leave her? But it seems like at the very least they owned a flat together and he must have had some personal property. Even if he hadn't become famous after death, you'd think he'd wanted that to go to his partner rather than his stranged family.

His isnt one of those countries that awarded his assets to his legal relatives?

I do find that idea of European countries shocking. Damn, it’s my money, the last thing I want is my $3 million going to my brothers and sisters nieces and nephews. Well they are getting some of it in our current well, they’re organizations I would much rather leave money to.

So in these European countries spoken of above, do organizations i.e. charities get anything upon someone’s death?

Late to this discussion but I'm starting to understand why Regicide was so common among European royalty....

There is a limitation. If you kill your parents, you can’t inherit them. So you have to do it undetected.

wevan

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2542 on: April 22, 2021, 12:50:26 PM »
Here is a pretty good discussion of where to put your will over on Bogleheads.

https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=337890

I know I'm misreading your post, but I'm laughing over the picture of a thread earnestly discussing which subforum to post a copy of your will on.

shelivesthedream

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« Reply #2543 on: May 05, 2021, 10:03:48 AM »
not so much missing as paid a different way.   When someone dies, without a spouse, everything they own is deemed 'sold' at time of death and any capital gains are taxed to the estate, even RRSPs and RRIFs.   If the deceased has a spouse, RRIFs and RRSPs can transfer without tax, primary residence is also excluded.   So the deceased pays the taxes, not the one inheriting.
Isn't that pretty much the same thing?  Either pay taxes, then distribute, vs distribute, then pay taxes?

I am not certain about exactly how this works, but I think in the UK the heir(s) have to pay the inheritance tax before getting their hands on the estate. This is a colossal pain in the ass, because it's really not that unusual for the amount assessed for inheritance tax to be more than the heirs personal NW. It's like in Guys and Dolls - if they only had a lousy little grand they could be a millionaire! But as it is, if they can't afford £30k for the tax, they can't inherit £300k (numbers made up). I believe you can get loans for this specific purpose. IMO, it should be the executors job to pay inheritance tax from the estate before distribution.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2544 on: May 05, 2021, 10:11:20 AM »
not so much missing as paid a different way.   When someone dies, without a spouse, everything they own is deemed 'sold' at time of death and any capital gains are taxed to the estate, even RRSPs and RRIFs.   If the deceased has a spouse, RRIFs and RRSPs can transfer without tax, primary residence is also excluded.   So the deceased pays the taxes, not the one inheriting.
Isn't that pretty much the same thing?  Either pay taxes, then distribute, vs distribute, then pay taxes?

I am not certain about exactly how this works, but I think in the UK the heir(s) have to pay the inheritance tax before getting their hands on the estate. This is a colossal pain in the ass, because it's really not that unusual for the amount assessed for inheritance tax to be more than the heirs personal NW. It's like in Guys and Dolls - if they only had a lousy little grand they could be a millionaire! But as it is, if they can't afford £30k for the tax, they can't inherit £300k (numbers made up). I believe you can get loans for this specific purpose. IMO, it should be the executors job to pay inheritance tax from the estate before distribution.
It's not a problem if there is cash in the estate.  The main problem is when the estate is basically a single house that the heirs want to keep: in that situation the tax bill can be big but there's no cash in the estate.  I can't say I feel too sorry - inheritance tax only kicks in above £325,000 so the heirs are going to get a nice increase in worth whatever they do.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2545 on: May 05, 2021, 10:43:47 AM »
It's definitely a first world problem, but still an annoying one! I stand corrected about the cash. I know about it because my mother's friend was inheriting and couldn't pay the IHT upfront but now I come to think of it, she was inheriting a London house.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2546 on: May 06, 2021, 11:32:01 AM »
Maybe I shouldn't post this, but wanted to rant somewhere. My mother currently lives in my brother's house along with my sister. Sister has not been working due to COVID (though to be honest there have been stretches of time she has been unemployed). Mom pays for groceries and some bills to contribute. However brother says that he and his daughter pretty much just eat out, make their own food etc rather than eat that food. My mother is older, has some health conditions, but is not an invalid. She does not follow medical advice for eating healthier and getting more physical activity. She stopped driving (she never liked driving). She gave her car to my sister who drives it. The last couple times I noticed my Mom kind of orders my sister around and makes a lot of unnecessary requests. She also wants sister to be constantly available, to drop whatever she is doing to do errands, make her food at non meal times, or make a new or different food even though there is food to eat, etc. It is a huge time suck. My sister since she moved in, has not been financially contributing to the household. So my sister and Mom are now saying hat "taking care of Mom" is her job now, and she shouldn't be expected to get a job or contribute otherwise to the household. This is a big sore spot for my brother. He's the only one paying the mortgage (or paying for, doing repairs to house, etc). In response, my mother is now saying, well when she dies she will give a bigger share of inheritance to sister to compensate her for her time. I find this problematic on a number of fronts. One, it isn't fair to my brother who is, objectively helping my mother as much if not more, by essentially giving her a free place to live. Two because Mom doesn't pay rent, my sister also doesn't feel obligated to. Third I feel that my mother is using promise of inheritance to treat my sister as an indentured servant. 4th, this may place sis in a financially precarious situation; there is no guarantee any money will be left by the time she passes, and every year that this goes on, is less income sis has made on her own or social security benefits she has accrued. I can already see the resentment if it is less than what she expects. It's not great for Mom, as she has becomes less capable and more needy.  I suggested if Mom needs help, that she schedules with sis, times say 2-3x a week to do errands, etc, and that they are consolidated. Also, That sis gets paid a certain amount for helping her (10-20 an hour). The payment will allow sis to have money for herself or to contribute to the household. I believe it will reduce the amount of time Mom takes of my sister's time, as there is an actual value placed on it. Neither Mom nor sis want to do that (different reasons). Any suggestions? My brother is talking about at some point selling his house and moving to an apartment in a few years, which would also "solve" the problem.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 05:19:21 PM by partgypsy »

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2547 on: May 06, 2021, 12:15:23 PM »
It's definitely a first world problem, but still an annoying one! I stand corrected about the cash. I know about it because my mother's friend was inheriting and couldn't pay the IHT upfront but now I come to think of it, she was inheriting a London house.

Here this is the primary use of "Term-100" life insurance -- the aging current owner buys life insurance to cover taxes due on the property when they die, so that the property does not need to be sold.  It is common for cottages or other real property.

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2548 on: May 06, 2021, 12:34:35 PM »
@partgypsy You can't fix this. I get why it's frustrating, because it is ultimately unhealthy. Your sister is getting free housing/food, your mom gets a servant. Short of your brother selling the place (and both have to move out), the only person who can fix this situation is your sister. And since she's getting something out of it she may not want to. Even if your brother sells, it's possible that they will find a place together and continue the dynamic.

The odds are good that whenever this does break up your sister is going to struggle. You won't be able to fix that either. It sucks. Try to disengage.

partgypsy

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Re: Inheritance Drama: You Got Any? Stories Wanted.
« Reply #2549 on: May 06, 2021, 05:09:32 PM »
@partgypsy You can't fix this. I get why it's frustrating, because it is ultimately unhealthy. Your sister is getting free housing/food, your mom gets a servant. Short of your brother selling the place (and both have to move out), the only person who can fix this situation is your sister. And since she's getting something out of it she may not want to. Even if your brother sells, it's possible that they will find a place together and continue the dynamic.

The odds are good that whenever this does break up your sister is going to struggle. You won't be able to fix that either. It sucks. Try to disengage.

I don't think it's a healthy dynamic at all. My mom had a codependent relationship with my brother (different, he was the one being "taken care of") and the longer this goes the more sister will feel this is all she is capable of (she's even said as such. Also that she just needs a break because life is so stressful). And even if Mom gives her 100% of her assets, it will not be enough to live on if sister is unable to live independently.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 05:20:33 PM by partgypsy »