Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!

[SwordGuy]

This is good to know. The cost of health insurance is such an unknown to me. I started a thread seeking answers about how much people pay for healthcare--while also asking about those who retired without a pension--and the costs they are share are quite low. I'm not sure why that is. Perhaps they have much higher deductibles or don't require medicine. https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/fire-success-stories-without-a-pension/

Justin at www.RootOfGood.com did a really good write-up on the Affordable Care Act.  Depending on your "income", it can be quite low.    The Democrats managed to get thru some health care changes a few years back which cut my pre-Medicare, post-retirement health insurance in half.   

You can go to the ACA marketplace and go thru the motions of signing up to get an idea of what costs might be.  Sorry, I've forgotten the URL, I went on Medicare a couple of years ago.

[Taran Wanderer]

@SwordGuy , good point.  We’re on a pretty plush family plan, so our experience may not be comparable to others’. 

[secondcor521]

I think the big thing missing here is the understanding of how much medical insurance actually costs. Our insurance costs $2,000 per month. Most of that cost is borne by DW’s employer, and that cost includes medicines and dental and vision. Out of pocket were a few hundred dollars a month in go-insurance (monthly contribution), but you can bet include the full amount in our monthly and annual spending because when we eventually RE, we’ll need to plan for it.

This is good to know. The cost of health insurance is such an unknown to me. I started a thread seeking answers about how much people pay for healthcare--while also asking about those who retired without a pension--and the costs they are share are quite low. I'm not sure why that is. Perhaps they have much higher deductibles or don't require medicine. https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/fire-success-stories-without-a-pension/

Thank you @Tigerpine for the Medicare book recommendation. I'll add that to my list to read as we approach the Medicare start date.

My ACA costs are far less than my employer plan.

My employer plan was arguably nicer and fuller featured, but I mostly didn't need it or use it.

I'm on an ACA Bronze HSA plan.  Subsidized premium is $125 a month, and I contribute some to my HSA, and I'm logging my HSA eligible expenses in a spreadsheet.

I find it pretty easy to be in the ACA income range on my tax return because I (a) have a paid off home and car, (b) live in a MCOL area, (c) have some sources of non-taxable income that is spendable, and (d) have a reasonable to modest lifestyle.

[Much Fishing to Do]

I think the big thing missing here is the understanding of how much medical insurance actually costs. Our insurance costs $2,000 per month. Most of that cost is borne by DW’s employer, and that cost includes medicines and dental and vision. Out of pocket were a few hundred dollars a month in go-insurance (monthly contribution), but you can bet include the full amount in our monthly and annual spending because when we eventually RE, we’ll need to plan for it.

This is good to know. The cost of health insurance is such an unknown to me. I started a thread seeking answers about how much people pay for healthcare--while also asking about those who retired without a pension--and the costs they are share are quite low. I'm not sure why that is. Perhaps they have much higher deductibles or don't require medicine. https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/fire-success-stories-without-a-pension/

Thank you @Tigerpine for the Medicare book recommendation. I'll add that to my list to read as we approach the Medicare start date.

My ACA costs are far less than my employer plan.

My employer plan was arguably nicer and fuller featured, but I mostly didn't need it or use it.

I'm on an ACA Bronze HSA plan.  Subsidized premium is $125 a month, and I contribute some to my HSA, and I'm logging my HSA eligible expenses in a spreadsheet.

I find it pretty easy to be in the ACA income range on my tax return because I (a) have a paid off home and car, (b) live in a MCOL area, (c) have some sources of non-taxable income that is spendable, and (d) have a reasonable to modest lifestyle.

I always had my own private plan for the family as I was generally self-employed, and the premiums did move dramatically upward over the years.  Last year it was $2500/mth.  Looking at my expected realized income etc for ACA subsidies I was planning on about $300mth for the family for a similar plan in RE, so quite the savings.  I took a last minute different path and have ended up in a middle ground with a new part time job offering that does offer me benefits for now where I fall between those prices (about $1300/mth gets pulled out of my check, so quite expensive but much better than what I had).

[EscapeVelocity2020]

It really is impressive how much money I'm making as long as I do nothing!  Watching numbers go up is way more profitable than anything I've actively tried to do...  Just need to keep myself busy so I don't touch anything, going off grid next week so I'm sure markets will crash...

So I'm back from hiking Mt. Rainier (well, all around it at least) as well as a week in a semi-remote Michigan cabin....  Did I miss anything??

[Fomerly known as something]

It really is impressive how much money I'm making as long as I do nothing!  Watching numbers go up is way more profitable than anything I've actively tried to do...  Just need to keep myself busy so I don't touch anything, going off grid next week so I'm sure markets will crash...

So I'm back from hiking Mt. Rainier (well, all around it at least) as well as a week in a semi-remote Michigan cabin....  Did I miss anything??

Well I’m personally confusing my body so it doesn’t know what time zone it’s in between work and personal travel with fun delays.  7 hours at SFO anyone?

[Fomerly known as something]

My personal money dilemma last week was if I wanted to pay 1600 euros to go to the opening ceremonies.  I could afford it, I had the opportunity (do to work sending me there that week) but in the end I would have only seen the parade of boats live, the rest was via Jumbotron.  I think I would have done it if it was in a traditional stadium.  But it also rained so I feel I made the right choice.

[ixtap]

We didn't dilemma it today. As soon as it was clear that we would be able to make our connecting flight, we rebooked and hightailed it to a hotel on our own dime. No waiting for the chaos to increase and better options at the regional airport than the major hub. We aren't staying anywhere special, but it certainly feels rich to just do it.

[Watchmaker]

As I've talked about before, I retired in 2023 but my version of retiring has involved opening a bookstore and continuing to consult for my previous employer. I'm as busy as ever. Which is fine, I like being busy... most of the time. But if I'm going to keep all of this up I need to get much better at taking time away.

I've always been awful at disconnecting from work. I routinely checked email, answered work calls, had meetings, etc while on vacation. And I haven't gotten any better at it even though I'm not even an employee there anymore.

The bookstore comes with its own restrictions: I have been the only person working there, so if I wanted to do something else, the bookstore had to be closed.

I'm taking two steps to try to improve this:

1) I'm going to start blocking off a two week period every two months during which I won't be available for consulting hours (and won't be checking email). The first of those is next week, when we'll be going to Colorado for my SO's brother's 40th birthday. But, even if I'm not traveling, I'm going to block off time just to give myself a proper break from that work.

2) I'm hiring an employee to work fill-in hours and the occasional weekend at the store.

Wish me luck!

[jeroly]

As I've talked about before, I retired in 2023 but my version of retiring has involved opening a bookstore and continuing to consult for my previous employer. I'm as busy as ever. Which is fine, I like being busy... most of the time. But if I'm going to keep all of this up I need to get much better at taking time away.

I've always been awful at disconnecting from work. I routinely checked email, answered work calls, had meetings, etc while on vacation. And I haven't gotten any better at it even though I'm not even an employee there anymore.

The bookstore comes with its own restrictions: I have been the only person working there, so if I wanted to do something else, the bookstore had to be closed.

I'm taking two steps to try to improve this:

1) I'm going to start blocking off a two week period every two months during which I won't be available for consulting hours (and won't be checking email). The first of those is next week, when we'll be going to Colorado for my SO's brother's 40th birthday. But, even if I'm not traveling, I'm going to block off time just to give myself a proper break from that work.

2) I'm hiring an employee to work fill-in hours and the occasional weekend at the store.

Wish me luck!

That sounds like a wonderful plan, W!
Best of luck!

[EscapeVelocity2020]

It really is impressive how much money I'm making as long as I do nothing!  Watching numbers go up is way more profitable than anything I've actively tried to do...  Just need to keep myself busy so I don't touch anything, going off grid next week so I'm sure markets will crash...

So I'm back from hiking Mt. Rainier (well, all around it at least) as well as a week in a semi-remote Michigan cabin....  Did I miss anything??

Caught up, and I guess Biden is out and Kamala Harris is in!  Also, I'm just in time for the market meltdown.  As Miley said, "It's a Party in the USA!"

[oldtoyota]

As I've talked about before, I retired in 2023 but my version of retiring has involved opening a bookstore and continuing to consult for my previous employer. I'm as busy as ever. Which is fine, I like being busy... most of the time. But if I'm going to keep all of this up I need to get much better at taking time away.

I've always been awful at disconnecting from work. I routinely checked email, answered work calls, had meetings, etc while on vacation. And I haven't gotten any better at it even though I'm not even an employee there anymore.

The bookstore comes with its own restrictions: I have been the only person working there, so if I wanted to do something else, the bookstore had to be closed.

I'm taking two steps to try to improve this:

1) I'm going to start blocking off a two week period every two months during which I won't be available for consulting hours (and won't be checking email). The first of those is next week, when we'll be going to Colorado for my SO's brother's 40th birthday. But, even if I'm not traveling, I'm going to block off time just to give myself a proper break from that work.

2) I'm hiring an employee to work fill-in hours and the occasional weekend at the store.

Wish me luck!

Good luck with everything! You’re making strides and setting boundaries. All sounds good!

[Bateaux]

OMG it's hot!!!

We bought a boat last month. It's a 24 foot Hurricane deck boat. Drove up to Oklahoma City, from Louisiana to buy it. It was 650 miles of towing, but was uneventful. It's in good shape and we've taken it out a few times. But it's miserably hot. We took it to the local lake, about an hour cruise from our waterfront home. The lake water was 95 degrees! You didn't cool off in the water. We caught a few blue crabs and boiled them at home.
I'm having to modify the boat lift because this boat is wider than our previous boat. Last night I was welding pulleys to the wider beams and couldn't see due to sweating in my welding hood.
I'm about to head back out and hang the new beams with new cables. Personally I'd prefer to just kayak!!!!` But happy wife equals happy life and she likes the luxury of plush seats.
I should just hire this work out but I love the challenge. Cooler weather is coming and we'll enjoy the boat more then. It will decorate nicely for the Christmas and Mardi Gras boat parades here.

[ixtap]

OMG it's hot!!!

We bought a boat last month. It's a 24 foot Hurricane deck boat. Drove up to Oklahoma City, from Louisiana to buy it. It was 650 miles of towing, but was uneventful. It's in good shape and we've taken it out a few times. But it's miserably hot. We took it to the local lake, about an hour cruise from our waterfront home. The lake water was 95 degrees! You didn't cool off in the water. We caught a few blue crabs and boiled them at home.
I'm having to modify the boat lift because this boat is wider than our previous boat. Last night I was welding pulleys to the wider beams and couldn't see due to sweating in my welding hood.
I'm about to head back out and hang the new beams with new cables. Personally I'd prefer to just kayak!!!!` But happy wife equals happy life and she likes the luxury of plush seats.
I should just hire this work out but I love the challenge. Cooler weather is coming and we'll enjoy the boat more then. It will decorate nicely for the Christmas and Mardi Gras boat parades here.

In Texas, we went where the water skiers and waker boarders were: they would stir up the deep water to cool off the average temps. Your waters might not be deep enough for that.

Our first Thanksgiving, we went out for the weekend like always, not considering how much cooler it was at night than it had been up to then. We didn't have any pants or jackets with us and just the one blanket. We ended up in bed just after dark to stay warm.

[Bateaux]

@ixtap this lake averages only 10 to 12 foot deep. There is no deep cool water unfortunately.

[AccidentalMiser]

I think the big thing missing here is the understanding of how much medical insurance actually costs. Our insurance costs $2,000 per month. Most of that cost is borne by DW’s employer, and that cost includes medicines and dental and vision. Out of pocket were a few hundred dollars a month in go-insurance (monthly contribution), but you can bet include the full amount in our monthly and annual spending because when we eventually RE, we’ll need to plan for it.

This is good to know. The cost of health insurance is such an unknown to me. I started a thread seeking answers about how much people pay for healthcare--while also asking about those who retired without a pension--and the costs they are share are quite low. I'm not sure why that is. Perhaps they have much higher deductibles or don't require medicine. https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/fire-success-stories-without-a-pension/

Thank you @Tigerpine for the Medicare book recommendation. I'll add that to my list to read as we approach the Medicare start date.

My ACA costs are far less than my employer plan.

My employer plan was arguably nicer and fuller featured, but I mostly didn't need it or use it.

I'm on an ACA Bronze HSA plan.  Subsidized premium is $125 a month, and I contribute some to my HSA, and I'm logging my HSA eligible expenses in a spreadsheet.

I find it pretty easy to be in the ACA income range on my tax return because I (a) have a paid off home and car, (b) live in a MCOL area, (c) have some sources of non-taxable income that is spendable, and (d) have a reasonable to modest lifestyle.

I always had my own private plan for the family as I was generally self-employed, and the premiums did move dramatically upward over the years.  Last year it was $2500/mth.  Looking at my expected realized income etc for ACA subsidies I was planning on about $300mth for the family for a similar plan in RE, so quite the savings.  I took a last minute different path and have ended up in a middle ground with a new part time job offering that does offer me benefits for now where I fall between those prices (about $1300/mth gets pulled out of my check, so quite expensive but much better than what I had).

A tool for estimating ACA subsidies:
https://www.kff.org/interactive/subsidy-calculator/

[Much Fishing to Do]

Some of my holdings are approaching highs today so I just made my move from 80% equities to 75% I've been wanting to do. 

This is an extreme move for a non-trader like me ;-)

[2sk22]

Some of my holdings are approaching highs today so I just made my move from 80% equities to 75% I've been wanting to do. 

This is an extreme move for a non-trader like me ;-)

I also believe in benign neglect :-)

In fact, have rebalanced our portfolio exactly twice so far in the thirty plus years that we have been investing. We used to be somewhere close to 80/20 when I was still working but after these two rebalancings, we are now at 60% stock, 30% bond and 10% cash equivalents (way too much, I know, but that's what it takes to keep my wife from getting anxious).

More than the rebalancing, I was able to make our portfolio more tax efficient last year by moving a big chunk of our tax deferred money into bonds. Our taxable accounts are mostly stock along with some municipal bonds. See: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Tax-efficient_fund_placement

[lhamo]

We used to be somewhere close to 80/20 when I was still working but after these two rebalancings, we are now at 60% stock, 30% bond and 10% cash equivalents (way too much, I know, but that's what it takes to keep my wife from getting anxious).

You guys are well into the "and beyond" category IIRC.

After the financial split from the divorce I am closer to the starting point of this race again, and 650k of that 2 mill ish is in my paid off (but still needing renovations) house.  But I have a very hefty Inner Bag Lady sitting on my shoulder and to keep her happy I have a BIG chunk of my stash in cash- and cash-like buckets (I bonds, mostly, which I will be cashing out soon).  It may not be considered financially viable optimal*, but it keeps IBL calmer (she still freaks out a bit when the market starts dropping) and means I spend less time/mental energy emotionally spinning about money stuff.

TLDR:  once you have enough (or way more than enough, as many here do) there is no reason not to have an asset allocation that gives you the maximum amount of peace.

*Wrong word choice -- coffee hadn't kicked in yet...

[Much Fishing to Do]

We used to be somewhere close to 80/20 when I was still working but after these two rebalancings, we are now at 60% stock, 30% bond and 10% cash equivalents (way too much, I know, but that's what it takes to keep my wife from getting anxious).

You guys are well into the "and beyond" category IIRC.

After the financial split from the divorce I am closer to the starting point of this race again, and 650k of that 2 mill ish is in my paid off (but still needing renovations) house.  But I have a very hefty Inner Bag Lady sitting on my shoulder and to keep her happy I have a BIG chunk of my stash in cash- and cash-like buckets (I bonds, mostly, which I will be cashing out soon).  It may not be considered financially viable, but it keeps IBL calmer (she still freaks out a bit when the market starts dropping) and means I spend less time/mental energy emotionally spinning about money stuff.

TLDR:  once you have enough (or way more than enough, as many here do) there is no reason not to have an asset allocation that gives you the maximum amount of peace.

Yeah, if you include paid off real estate I'm much lower than 75% equities.  Though I generally dont include the real estate in any of that cause none of it is making me money for now.  Besides my home & a vacation cabin, I have $500k sitting in a lake house i bought my dad to live in for as long as the good lord will let him.  And my fully funded 529s for the kids, already in use, are extremely conservatively invested.  It is nice all that stuff holds its value as the markets fly around, or I'm sure I would be less than 75% equities.  No need to take stomach turning risk at this point.

[2sk22]

...
TLDR:  once you have enough (or way more than enough, as many here do) there is no reason not to have an asset allocation that gives you the maximum amount of peace.

*Wrong word choice -- coffee hadn't kicked in yet...

We are indeed in the way beyond category and that has definitely had an influence on my asset allocation. I was thinking of this well-known William Bernstein quote when I did my last rebalance in February 2023: "If you've won the game, stop playing".

I will admit that it was not easy to move that much money so much into bonds but I decided to rip the bandaid off and did it in one fell swoop. I have no complaints - I am happy with the final result. I will not be touching my asset allocation for a few more years until I get my pension lump sum (its not a huge amount but enough to warrant some thought).

[Fomerly known as something]

OMG it's hot!!!

We bought a boat last month. It's a 24 foot Hurricane deck boat. Drove up to Oklahoma City, from Louisiana to buy it. It was 650 miles of towing, but was uneventful. It's in good shape and we've taken it out a few times. But it's miserably hot. We took it to the local lake, about an hour cruise from our waterfront home. The lake water was 95 degrees! You didn't cool off in the water. We caught a few blue crabs and boiled them at home.
I'm having to modify the boat lift because this boat is wider than our previous boat. Last night I was welding pulleys to the wider beams and couldn't see due to sweating in my welding hood.
I'm about to head back out and hang the new beams with new cables. Personally I'd prefer to just kayak!!!!` But happy wife equals happy life and she likes the luxury of plush seats.
I should just hire this work out but I love the challenge. Cooler weather is coming and we'll enjoy the boat more then. It will decorate nicely for the Christmas and Mardi Gras boat parades here.

There is a reason I don’t live in the Southeast.  Summers are for upper midwest or deep mountain lakes.

[TempusFugit]

I am a little embarrassed to admit that last week I made some minor moves to rebalance more into bonds and small/mid cap within my 401k. It’s embarrassing because it was definitely emotionally triggered. With the anticipation of a conflagration in the Middle East, that little drop last week spooked me. 

Of course, I got chastened when the S&P immediately gained 5% after my move into bonds!  Oh well.  I only moved about 3% of my holdings so we’re talking about a few thousand dollars of ‘lost’ gains from the 5% bounce back.  I’m now at 70/30 where I am including my cash pension as part of that 30%.

I’m getting closer to retirement now and I’ll confess that I’m starting to move into the ‘preservation’ mindset.

I live in the southeast and yes, it’s hot as hell in the summer, but I’ll take that over cold snowy winters!  Without AC, it would definitely be a miserable place to live. 

[SwordGuy]

I am a little embarrassed to admit that last week I made some minor moves to rebalance more into bonds and small/mid cap within my 401k. It’s embarrassing because it was definitely emotionally triggered. With the anticipation of a conflagration in the Middle East, that little drop last week spooked me. 

Of course, I got chastened when the S&P immediately gained 5% after my move into bonds!  Oh well.  I only moved about 3% of my holdings so we’re talking about a few thousand dollars of ‘lost’ gains from the 5% bounce back.  I’m now at 70/30 where I am including my cash pension as part of that 30%.

I’m getting closer to retirement now and I’ll confess that I’m starting to move into the ‘preservation’ mindset.

Pretty sure badly timing the market isn't a solid strategy for wealth preservation...  ;)

[dividendman]

My rising equity glidepath approach has me moving 2% of my allocation from bonds to stocks next week.... of course this happens after a run-up in stocks... at least I'm not timing it!

[jeroly]

I am a little embarrassed to admit that last week I made some minor moves to rebalance more into bonds and small/mid cap within my 401k. It’s embarrassing because it was definitely emotionally triggered. With the anticipation of a conflagration in the Middle East, that little drop last week spooked me. 

Of course, I got chastened when the S&P immediately gained 5% after my move into bonds!  Oh well.  I only moved about 3% of my holdings so we’re talking about a few thousand dollars of ‘lost’ gains from the 5% bounce back.  I’m now at 70/30 where I am including my cash pension as part of that 30%.

I’m getting closer to retirement now and I’ll confess that I’m starting to move into the ‘preservation’ mindset.

I live in the southeast and yes, it’s hot as hell in the summer, but I’ll take that over cold snowy winters!  Without AC, it would definitely be a miserable place to live.

May that be the worst investment mistake you make!

Sounds like you were due for a rebalancing anyway, don’t hit yourself over the head about the timing.

If it continues to bother you, make a resolution that, in the future, you will only rebalance every [X] [months/years] on the Yth of the month.

[Much Fishing to Do]

I am a little embarrassed to admit that last week I made some minor moves to rebalance more into bonds and small/mid cap within my 401k. It’s embarrassing because it was definitely emotionally triggered. With the anticipation of a conflagration in the Middle East, that little drop last week spooked me. 

Of course, I got chastened when the S&P immediately gained 5% after my move into bonds!  Oh well.  I only moved about 3% of my holdings so we’re talking about a few thousand dollars of ‘lost’ gains from the 5% bounce back.  I’m now at 70/30 where I am including my cash pension as part of that 30%.

I’m getting closer to retirement now and I’ll confess that I’m starting to move into the ‘preservation’ mindset.

I live in the southeast and yes, it’s hot as hell in the summer, but I’ll take that over cold snowy winters!  Without AC, it would definitely be a miserable place to live.

May that be the worst investment mistake you make!

Sounds like you were due for a rebalancing anyway, don’t hit yourself over the heads about the timing.

If it continues to bother you, make a resolution that, in the future, you will only rebalance every [X] [months/years] on the Yth of the month.

Yes, being so close to the highs, there's not a lot of hurt there, unless we go on a big upward swing and you then decide you are too much in bonds and move back ;-)  It is interesting though that I did make my move towards more bonds with the thought I was near highs in my equities, precisely because I remember how many people "revisited" their risk tolerance in 2009, which of course after that basking meant a lot sold equities at the lows and I always told myself I'd never do that by making sure even planned moves toward bonds would be a stock highs when I know I would be emoitionally pushing myself in the opposite direction....

[asauer]

I'm so excited to join this thread!  Some RSU vestment put my toe over the line this week!

[Dancin'Dog]

Have you ever been offered a cash discount for a large European purchase?  A property owner offered us the option of paying with cash for their villa, plus the other associated services during our stay.  He said it as if it wasn't unusual.  It would be a substantial discount, so I wanted to ask you all. 


Of course, I realize traveling with over $10K requires filing a disclosure with customs. 


I plan to just pay with a check or EFT.  Traveling with a large amount of cash in a foreign country makes me nervous.  I figure if I get robbed in transit I'll end up paying twice.


In the States, I often ask for cash discounts.  But this feels uncomfortably different.  What do you think?










 

[SwordGuy]

Have you ever been offered a cash discount for a large European purchase?  A property owner offered us the option of paying with cash for their villa, plus the other associated services during our stay.  He said it as if it wasn't unusual.  It would be a substantial discount, so I wanted to ask you all. 


Of course, I realize traveling with over $10K requires filing a disclosure with customs. 


I plan to just pay with a check or EFT.  Traveling with a large amount of cash in a foreign country makes me nervous.  I figure if I get robbed in transit I'll end up paying twice.


In the States, I often ask for cash discounts.  But this feels uncomfortably different.  What do you think?

I would find a lawyer in that area -- not one recommended by the seller -- and ask them.   Ditto for a real estate professional.

[Dancin'Dog]

Have you ever been offered a cash discount for a large European purchase?  A property owner offered us the option of paying with cash for their villa, plus the other associated services during our stay.  He said it as if it wasn't unusual.  It would be a substantial discount, so I wanted to ask you all. 


Of course, I realize traveling with over $10K requires filing a disclosure with customs. 


I plan to just pay with a check or EFT.  Traveling with a large amount of cash in a foreign country makes me nervous.  I figure if I get robbed in transit I'll end up paying twice.


In the States, I often ask for cash discounts.  But this feels uncomfortably different.  What do you think?

I would find a lawyer in that area -- not one recommended by the seller -- and ask them.   Ditto for a real estate professional.

Whoops.  My wording was unclear.  It's for a rental property.

[Malossi792]

Have you ever been offered a cash discount for a large European purchase?  A property owner offered us the option of paying with cash for their villa, plus the other associated services during our stay.  He said it as if it wasn't unusual.  It would be a substantial discount, so I wanted to ask you all. 


Of course, I realize traveling with over $10K requires filing a disclosure with customs. 


I plan to just pay with a check or EFT.  Traveling with a large amount of cash in a foreign country makes me nervous.  I figure if I get robbed in transit I'll end up paying twice.


In the States, I often ask for cash discounts.  But this feels uncomfortably different.  What do you think?

Cash = They don't want to pay any tax. Sadly, it's pretty common on this side of the pond. That's the optimistic assumption anyway...

[SwordGuy]

Have you ever been offered a cash discount for a large European purchase?  A property owner offered us the option of paying with cash for their villa, plus the other associated services during our stay.  He said it as if it wasn't unusual.  It would be a substantial discount, so I wanted to ask you all. 


Of course, I realize traveling with over $10K requires filing a disclosure with customs. 


I plan to just pay with a check or EFT.  Traveling with a large amount of cash in a foreign country makes me nervous.  I figure if I get robbed in transit I'll end up paying twice.


In the States, I often ask for cash discounts.  But this feels uncomfortably different.  What do you think?

I would find a lawyer in that area -- not one recommended by the seller -- and ask them.   Ditto for a real estate professional.

Whoops.  My wording was unclear.  It's for a rental property.

I've bought 6 rental properties for "cash" here in the US.   Except it wasn't actual "cash", it was either a bank draft from my bank to the attorney's account.   It's not at all uncommon to do that for inexpensive properties or damaged ones.   Sellers who know that will ask for a cash sale because they know the property won't qualify for a "normal" mortgage.

But that's the USA where we have a pretty regulated and standardized real estate market.

Every country (or US state for that matter), can be different.   You want to make sure your sale is properly recorded and not disputable, either by the seller, someone the seller owes money to, or the seller's heirs, or someone who owned it before the seller did, and that the seller actually owns the property.   That's a pretty cut and dried process her in the US. 

I have no idea what it's like elsewhere, especially if it's someplace that well-off foreigners are considered ripe for the picking.

[Dancin'Dog]

Have you ever been offered a cash discount for a large European purchase?  A property owner offered us the option of paying with cash for their villa, plus the other associated services during our stay.  He said it as if it wasn't unusual.  It would be a substantial discount, so I wanted to ask you all. 


Of course, I realize traveling with over $10K requires filing a disclosure with customs. 


I plan to just pay with a check or EFT.  Traveling with a large amount of cash in a foreign country makes me nervous.  I figure if I get robbed in transit I'll end up paying twice.


In the States, I often ask for cash discounts.  But this feels uncomfortably different.  What do you think?

I would find a lawyer in that area -- not one recommended by the seller -- and ask them.   Ditto for a real estate professional.

Whoops.  My wording was unclear.  It's for a rental property.

I've bought 6 rental properties for "cash" here in the US.   Except it wasn't actual "cash", it was either a bank draft from my bank to the attorney's account.   It's not at all uncommon to do that for inexpensive properties or damaged ones.   Sellers who know that will ask for a cash sale because they know the property won't qualify for a "normal" mortgage.

But that's the USA where we have a pretty regulated and standardized real estate market.

Every country (or US state for that matter), can be different.   You want to make sure your sale is properly recorded and not disputable, either by the seller, someone the seller owes money to, or the seller's heirs, or someone who owned it before the seller did, and that the seller actually owns the property.   That's a pretty cut and dried process her in the US. 

I have no idea what it's like elsewhere, especially if it's someplace that well-off foreigners are considered ripe for the picking.

I worded it wrong again... 


We're renting a villa for a week for a wedding.  We'd save about $10K if paying for it with cash.  I don't feel comfortable traveling with that much, but hate to miss out on the discount. 


I assume most folks here would agree that it isn't worth the risk and stress.  But maybe some of you would be okay doing it.  I just thought I'd ask, since people in this thread would be more likely to encounter such offers than others would.

[dividendman]

Anecdotal data: I travel with large sums of cash all the time and nothing has happened... YMMV. :)

Also, $10k is a fair chunk, but it's not a crazy amount to carry around.

[ixtap]

Mr. Ixtap is making rumblings of putting in notice!

[2sk22]

Mr. Ixtap is making rumblings of putting in notice!

Congratulations (I hope)!

No sign of Ms. 2sk22 wanting to quit as yet though - in her words: "I get paid a lot of money to do very little" 😀

[Geppetto]

I worded it wrong again... 


We're renting a villa for a week for a wedding.  We'd save about $10K if paying for it with cash.  I don't feel comfortable traveling with that much, but hate to miss out on the discount. 


I assume most folks here would agree that it isn't worth the risk and stress.  But maybe some of you would be okay doing it.  I just thought I'd ask, since people in this thread would be more likely to encounter such offers than others would.

Must be some villa, if the owner can rent it for ten grand less and still come out ahead by not claiming the income.

Helping people cheat on their taxes at any level is not advisable; at that level it could be prosecuted as a conspiracy. If it were me, I'd heed the caution flag and just try to forget I was offered the discount.

[ATtiny85]

I recently paid cash for a couple night stay in a cottage in a foreign country. The landlord was not set up for using a credit card, and the other option given was to pay with a bank transfer. Since I do not have a bank account there, that was not feasible. Of course, it was not $10,000, but it was several hundred. Couple ATM stops in the days prior, done.

I don't automatically assume people are simply criminals. We don't know the country, don't know anything about the owner and so on.

I would get a receipt for a $10,000 expenditure though.

Edited to strikeout my read comprehension error. The rest is just mostly worthless unrelated experience.

[Geppetto]

OP said the discount for paying in cash was $10k. (The total price must be a multiple of that. Meaning the entire amount that presumably won't be reported as income will be a multiple of that.) There's really no guesswork involved due to the discount. It's facially tax fraud, and accepting the discount is to knowingly participate.

I love cash, and don't want to see cash disappear as a payment medium. But it's wise to guard against getting caught up in somebody else's income tax evasion program, especially into mid-five-figure territory. 

[ixtap]

Mr. Ixtap is making rumblings of putting in notice!

Congratulations (I hope)!

No sign of Ms. 2sk22 wanting to quit as yet though - in her words: "I get paid a lot of money to do very little" 😀

Guilt over precisely this is adding to Mr. Ixtap 's stress. He has decided he just can't handle this plus our upcoming travel plans. I was taken a back because there has also been talking cancelling our travel plans and putting down roots, instead.

As for congrats. I don't know. We are definitely FI, but will miss the excellent insurance and sometimes it is nice to know Mr. Ixtap is at work and if I go do my own thing I won't come home to the boat torn apart or an emotional crisis.

[Dancin'Dog]

OP said the discount for paying in cash was $10k. (The total price must be a multiple of that. Meaning the entire amount that presumably won't be reported as income will be a multiple of that.) There's really no guesswork involved due to the discount. It's facially tax fraud, and accepting the discount is to knowingly participate.

I love cash, and don't want to see cash disappear as a payment medium. But it's wise to guard against getting caught up in somebody else's income tax evasion program, especially into mid-five-figure territory.

That's my conclusion too. 

[Bird In Hand]

Jan/21: As of close of the markets yesterday, we joined this race for the first time with an aggregate balance of $2.005M across all our savings/retirement/investment accounts.  TNW including home equity is somewhere a little north of $2.4M.

Jun/21: LNW was flirting with $2.2M for what seemed like months.  We finally crossed that threshold sometime in the past couple weeks and have stayed there since.  With similar market performance for the rest of the year we could be knocking on the door of $2.5M by end of year, or about $3M TNW.   100k/year @ 4% SWR.  That's nuts.

Aug/21: We crossed $2.3M today.  I don't know why it seemed like such a long time to go from 2.2 to 2.3.  It was only two months.

Nov/21: The recent market run-up brought us to just over $2.4M invested as of COB Thurs.  This last $100k took almost 3 months (cue world's smallest violin).  Closing out the year at $2.5M may be a stretch, but is certainty feasible.

Jan/22: I didn't pay attention to the markets at all for the past couple months (practice for FIRE?).  We ended the year at about $2.425M invested.  I was hoping for $2.5M, but going up $425k in 2021 isn't worth complaining about.

Jul/23: $2.52M invested.  A little discouraging that we're < 10% above where we were two years ago, and essentially all of that is due to savings over that time.  Accounting for inflation, it's more like a 0% net balance increase after savings, and maybe a -10% return considering inflation.  It's not really surprising considering how rough 2022 was.

Aug/24: $3.1M invested, TNW around $3.8M.  Moving in the right direction.

[Heckler]

I guess we don't really post NW updates here? I'm still relatively new here so maybe I will until I lose interest. I've just been keeping track of when I pass nice round numbers.

Mid 2019 - First passed $1M
March 2020 - dropped to $840K (covid)
April 2020 - reclaimed $1M
June 2020 - passed $1.1M
August 2020 - passed $1.2M
January 2021 - passed $1.3M
April 2021 - passed $1.4M
August 2021 - passed $1.5M
November 2021 - passed $1.6M
June 2023 - passed $1.7M
December 2023 - passed $1.8M
January 2024 - passed $1.9M
March 2024 - passed $2M
June 2024 - passed $2.1M

According to this, I'm only three years before joining this thread, holy shit.  Did you ever stop contributing significant income?

[ROF Expat]

Have you ever been offered a cash discount for a large European purchase?  A property owner offered us the option of paying with cash for their villa, plus the other associated services during our stay.  He said it as if it wasn't unusual.  It would be a substantial discount, so I wanted to ask you all. 


Of course, I realize traveling with over $10K requires filing a disclosure with customs. 


I plan to just pay with a check or EFT.  Traveling with a large amount of cash in a foreign country makes me nervous.  I figure if I get robbed in transit I'll end up paying twice.


In the States, I often ask for cash discounts.  But this feels uncomfortably different.  What do you think?

Presumably, saving $10,000 means you'll be paying a lot more than $10,000.  Personally, I would absolutely not pay that much in cash, and the offer would raise questions in my mind about the legitimacy of the person making the offer and the legitimacy of the property.  Asking for that kind of money in cash is the kind of thing you do if you want to avoid taxes (at best).  It is also the kind of thing you do if you are a scammer (renting out a property you don't own), or a criminal (setting someone up to be robbed by a third party).  And, if you are doing something that isn't strictly legal and above board, you may well find that your recourse to the law is very limited.  Local law enforcement may well view you as part of the problem rather than a victim.  At the very least, this offer would make me take a very hard look at who I am dealing with and how legitimate they are.  Do you have prior experiences with the person involved?

Another poster mentioned that they "don't automatically assume people are simply criminals."  I don't either, but I've spent a lot of years overseas working with Americans who've been robbed or scammed, and this makes me very uncomfortable.  If you thought the villa was a reasonable deal when it was first presented to you, I wouldn't let a desire to save money lead me to do something that doesn't feel right.  If something seems to good to be true, it probably is.  This offer would make me suspicious of the entire deal and encourage me to look hard at their legitimacy and references.

[Dicey]

I'm so excited to join this thread!  Some RSU vestment put my toe over the line this week!

I'm just catching up after an insane amount of [volunteer] work. Congratulations and welcome!

[MoneyTree]

I guess we don't really post NW updates here? I'm still relatively new here so maybe I will until I lose interest. I've just been keeping track of when I pass nice round numbers.

Mid 2019 - First passed $1M
March 2020 - dropped to $840K (covid)
April 2020 - reclaimed $1M
June 2020 - passed $1.1M
August 2020 - passed $1.2M
January 2021 - passed $1.3M
April 2021 - passed $1.4M
August 2021 - passed $1.5M
November 2021 - passed $1.6M
June 2023 - passed $1.7M
December 2023 - passed $1.8M
January 2024 - passed $1.9M
March 2024 - passed $2M
June 2024 - passed $2.1M

According to this, I'm only three years before joining this thread, holy shit.  Did you ever stop contributing significant income?

Nope, still contributing income even now. But honestly it doesn’t move the needle compared to market gains.

Im still working because it is a great situation, fully remote, and I mostly work on my own terms.

[Dancin'Dog]

Have you ever been offered a cash discount for a large European purchase?  A property owner offered us the option of paying with cash for their villa, plus the other associated services during our stay.  He said it as if it wasn't unusual.  It would be a substantial discount, so I wanted to ask you all. 


Of course, I realize traveling with over $10K requires filing a disclosure with customs. 


I plan to just pay with a check or EFT.  Traveling with a large amount of cash in a foreign country makes me nervous.  I figure if I get robbed in transit I'll end up paying twice.


In the States, I often ask for cash discounts.  But this feels uncomfortably different.  What do you think?

Presumably, saving $10,000 means you'll be paying a lot more than $10,000.  Personally, I would absolutely not pay that much in cash, and the offer would raise questions in my mind about the legitimacy of the person making the offer and the legitimacy of the property.  Asking for that kind of money in cash is the kind of thing you do if you want to avoid taxes (at best).  It is also the kind of thing you do if you are a scammer (renting out a property you don't own), or a criminal (setting someone up to be robbed by a third party).  And, if you are doing something that isn't strictly legal and above board, you may well find that your recourse to the law is very limited.  Local law enforcement may well view you as part of the problem rather than a victim.  At the very least, this offer would make me take a very hard look at who I am dealing with and how legitimate they are.  Do you have prior experiences with the person involved?

Another poster mentioned that they "don't automatically assume people are simply criminals."  I don't either, but I've spent a lot of years overseas working with Americans who've been robbed or scammed, and this makes me very uncomfortable.  If you thought the villa was a reasonable deal when it was first presented to you, I wouldn't let a desire to save money lead me to do something that doesn't feel right.  If something seems to good to be true, it probably is.  This offer would make me suspicious of the entire deal and encourage me to look hard at their legitimacy and references.

Your points are all valid.


We visited the villa last Fall to meet the owner, see the property, and choose the menus, flowers, tableware, etc.  It was a Medici property, so it's old.  We stayed the night (and didn't see any ghosts).


The owner's been on Air B&B for over 10 years with a 5.0 rating, until last month.  All the reviews raved about their weddings & reunions.  So, I'm comfortable that he's legit.  He seemed a bit eccentric, in a hip, energetic, old-money, perhaps gay way.  I'm just a simple Southern fella, so he was a tough read for me.  Maybe offering a cash discount was just a friendly gesture in his mind.   If it had been a local transaction, for a smaller purchase I wouldn't have thought much of it.  22% is a sizable rate, so I can understand why many Europeans might try to avoid it.






 














 






 

[ixtap]

Have you ever been offered a cash discount for a large European purchase?  A property owner offered us the option of paying with cash for their villa, plus the other associated services during our stay.  He said it as if it wasn't unusual.  It would be a substantial discount, so I wanted to ask you all. 


Of course, I realize traveling with over $10K requires filing a disclosure with customs. 


I plan to just pay with a check or EFT.  Traveling with a large amount of cash in a foreign country makes me nervous.  I figure if I get robbed in transit I'll end up paying twice.


In the States, I often ask for cash discounts.  But this feels uncomfortably different.  What do you think?

Presumably, saving $10,000 means you'll be paying a lot more than $10,000.  Personally, I would absolutely not pay that much in cash, and the offer would raise questions in my mind about the legitimacy of the person making the offer and the legitimacy of the property.  Asking for that kind of money in cash is the kind of thing you do if you want to avoid taxes (at best).  It is also the kind of thing you do if you are a scammer (renting out a property you don't own), or a criminal (setting someone up to be robbed by a third party).  And, if you are doing something that isn't strictly legal and above board, you may well find that your recourse to the law is very limited.  Local law enforcement may well view you as part of the problem rather than a victim.  At the very least, this offer would make me take a very hard look at who I am dealing with and how legitimate they are.  Do you have prior experiences with the person involved?

Another poster mentioned that they "don't automatically assume people are simply criminals."  I don't either, but I've spent a lot of years overseas working with Americans who've been robbed or scammed, and this makes me very uncomfortable.  If you thought the villa was a reasonable deal when it was first presented to you, I wouldn't let a desire to save money lead me to do something that doesn't feel right.  If something seems to good to be true, it probably is.  This offer would make me suspicious of the entire deal and encourage me to look hard at their legitimacy and references.

Your points are all valid.


We visited the villa last Fall to meet the owner, see the property, and choose the menus, flowers, tableware, etc.  It was a Medici property, so it's old.  We stayed the night (and didn't see any ghosts).


The owner's been on Air B&B for over 10 years with a 5.0 rating, until last month.  All the reviews raved about their weddings & reunions.  So, I'm comfortable that he's legit.  He seemed a bit eccentric, in a hip, energetic, old-money, perhaps gay way.  I'm just a simple Southern fella, so he was a tough read for me.  Maybe offering a cash discount was just a friendly gesture in his mind.   If it had been a local transaction, for a smaller purchase I wouldn't have thought much of it.  22% is a sizable rate, so I can understand why many Europeans might try to avoid it.






 

So skipping our on airBNB fees as well as taxes. Yeah, that can add up fast for a cash discount.

[Taran Wanderer]

22% sounds like AirBnB fees rather than taxes. I wouldn’t have any moral qualms about getting that discount!