Author Topic: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!  (Read 1290528 times)

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7400 on: December 29, 2023, 02:40:52 PM »
FFS, I've been meaning to follow up on this, but I'm doing a "forum lite" week, as we're on a trip. The response above is so off the mark that apparently now is the time to elaborate.

As I mentioned upthread, I believe this topic is less of a concern for this group. Frankly, though some believe one should always have a mortgage, I do not fully subscribe to that theory, particularly for the folks racing from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!

The reason to hold a long, low, fixed-rate rate mortgage on an affordable home, in a country where mortgages are tax-advantaged, is that it allows you to invest in equities which will compound, resulting in a higher net worth faster than paying off the mortgage before maxing out every other investment option first.

The average shlub is assumed to be an idiot who will blow every spendable cent. (See: Dave Ramsey or Suze Orman for endless examples.) These people may never have the means to retire, let alone early. For them, the goal of paying off the mortgage is not unreasonable. At least they'll have something.

Mustachians are smarter more financially literate than that and know how to save and invest.

Since the goal of MMM, and by extension this forum, is to retire early, holding on to a mortgage (with the caveats listed above) is a smart strategy. Mortgages, if managed correctly, are a powerful tool for building wealth. The sooner you start investing, the faster compound interest will begin to do the heavy lifting. Waiting to invest until the mortgage is paid off simply means it's going to take longer, and you'll have to earn more money (i.e. work longer) to reach FIRE.

If you're on this forum, you're here to strategize so that you can at least reach FI efficiently. Ignoring the leverage a good mortgage creates over the imagined way it's going to "feel" to "kill the mortgage" before filling every other investment option makes so little sense that the blowback continues to surprise me.

Again, I don't believe this discussion is necessary in this group, but the recent scorn that's been directed my way is ironic, given that it's happening on this forum.

For the love of Dog, can we send this discussion back to the DPOYM thread, where both sides of the question are addressed?

I'm assuming the "scorn" you mentioned was because of my response.  No disrespect, but I disagree with many of your views on mortgages, and in my view you have come off a bit biased in the past in other threads.  However, that is ok...we can disagree.

My largest quibble regarding mortgages post-retirement is the fact you need "income" to service the debt...and that can affect many things, most notably engineering income for ACA benefits, etc...  Like I have mentioned many times, I'll pretty much always vouch for simplicity in finances, especially in early retirement. 

But yeah...let's move this over to the mortgage-specific threads.  I'd vote for the PYOM thread...haha.

And that is where personal finance is personal.  I had a paid off mortgage in 2016, it was meh.  I felt much better after in 2017 when on my next house I took out a mortgage and invested the rest.

I now have the largest mortgage Iíve ever had in my life by at least double, and itís a 30 year one at that.  One Iím carrying into RE next year on year 4 of the mortgage.  I could pay it off tomorrow.  But it is a cost Iím willing to allocate for housing.  Of course, ACA and trying to manufacture low income so I can get a subsidy is not something Iím going to worry about, especially since Iím in this thread. 

ETA: and itís DPOYM because we have been told not to post in the pay off your mortgage threads.

Hmm ok.  However, plenty of high net worth mustachians engineer their income for ACA subsidies.  Not sure where you got the idea they don't.  Having as little "income" as possible ( and fewer things to pay for...like mortgages ) is key do doing that.

ACA is 100% not a factor for me.  I will never be on an ACA plan.  That is the personal for me.  Mainly Iím giving an example of how not paying off the mortgage is good for me, as you are using your mortgage payoff as a good for you.

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7401 on: December 29, 2023, 04:57:53 PM »
Hmm we're both retired but our 0.69% WR seems to be having a similar effect of actively contributing.

At least during this bull market..:)

Amazing!  You are either well into "and Beyond" territory, or you have your spending much more contained than I do.  Definitely tells me that I have more work to do to get my spending more under control before pulling the RE trigger!  Well done, @Exflyboy !!

Well thanks.

And/or we have other income.. In our case two pesky rentals and a farm "business".

We also have future income in the form of smallish pensions and SS which increase in value every day. All of this is going to result in enormous tax bills come RMD time. Good problem to have though.

We don't spend much honestly, we are probably a little "too good" at not spending which results from a lifetime of practice.

We are not into "and beyond" territory.. At least not yet..:)

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7402 on: December 30, 2023, 12:52:12 AM »
I guess we're all posting our 2023 year in review.
For me it has been a fantastic year. Our first grandchild was born in March. He's a great little guy and we just celebrated his first Christmas.
I did some winter backpacking in my home state of Louisiana. We actually have a few hills up north. It was in the 20s and that helped a lot. I did some light bicycle touring during the spring in Mississippi. I also got in some great bicycle rides in Florida. Then in May I took off for a grand adventure on the Appalachian Trail. I walked almost 450 miles across Tennessee and Virginia. Spending 6 weeks without a car was a first for me. There is both freedom and limits to being without a car far away from home. I remained injury free thankfully and didn't even get a blister. I treated myself along with my wife and some friends to a week in a Shenandoah National Park condo. It was a fantastic way to end my journey. During the heat of August Category 3 Hurricane Idealia roared into Taylor County Florida. We'd feared for days that it would hit our Citrus County home. It passed 100 miles to our north. I went to Florida the day before the storm to make preparation. Since we were fine, I went out and helped with the cleanup. I first went to Cedar Key and volunteered at a Methodist Church. The 150 year old church had never before flooded. That changed when a 12 foot storm surge hit the island. I ripped out stinking floors and walls all day. They were great people who fought back strongly. The next day I traveled up to Perry Florida which was ground zero for the storm. I joined Team Rubicon helping remove trees from houses. It was a different scene from Cedar Key. These people were hurting. I spent a day unloading cases of water and MREs from trucks. I got severely sunburned and that night went to bed in a hot building and no shower. Luckily, we eventually got showers, but no power for air conditioning. I would sit in my truck, air-conditioning running for a few minutes prior to getting in my army cot. I sweat off many pounds that week
I've since put all the weight I'd lost back on. I do have a cure for that. January 4th I won't be sleeping in my warm bed with my loving wife, I'll be starting the Florida Trail. January 2nd, I'll be driving to our Florida home. I'm going to quickly get some yard work done on the 3rd. On January 4th, I'm renting a car and driving it to Miami. In Miami I'll meet up with a fellow hiker and we'll be picked up by a shuttle driver that will transport us to the trailhead. The first 30 to 50 miles we'll be hiking in the Everglades. Big Cypress Preserve, where just last month a 17 foot, 200 pound python was caught. There is also bears and Florida Panthers. Toss in a few water moccasins and 12 foot alligators just for kicks. The main enemy is walking countless miles in mud, muck and up to waist deep water. The only points to camp are a few islands which are only a few feet above the water themselves. Biting insects see you as food. Your drinking water source is the same water you're walking in. I'll be chemically treating and filtering my water. Normally I just do one or the other. Once out of the swamp section the first week, I'll be rambling along canal banks, walking along an occasional busy highway, hiking up forest trails in slightly hilly terrain and marching through soft sugar sand. Our house is 425 miles from the start point and just 3 miles off the trail route. I have to make serious miles to make it back. On February 3rd I'll be joining a 350 mile mostly off-road mountain bike race in central Florida. I'll take the gear out of my backpack and add it to my bicycle packing bags. I hope to complete the race within a week. Some will ride the race almost without sleeping. I'll be carrying my camping gear. Eating in restaurants and probably spend more than one night in a hotel or hostel along the way. For me it's about completing the 350 loop. Luckily the loops passes within 5 miles of my house. After the bike race I'll do a little home maintenance and pack up for return to Louisiana for a while.  I'll be missing the family by then. I'm actually going to do a little work. I'll put in 3 days at work, then my wife and I are headed to Texas for her LSU Lady Basketball Tigers. We'll be playing Texas A&M. After returning home I'm going to work a few days more. My official retirement date is March 22, 2024. This past spring I gave a one year notice. Since in that period I had 21 weeks of paid time off to use within a 41 week period of time I felt foolish not to do so. In addition they'll award me the 2023 bonus and an additional one month pay bonus for the one year notice.  I'll have to put in 17 work days between February and March. No big deal.
In April I may get back to hiking the Florida Trail or skip up to the Pinhoti Trail in Georgia. It's all part of the Eastern Continental Divide Trail. It's over 4000 miles in total. It starts at Key West Florida and goes into Canada.
Plenty of other cool things happened like our trip to Las Vegas, but this post is long enough.
Financially 2023 was fantastic year for us. Money for us will most likely be a worry free commodity. With 3.5 million liquid and well into beyond territory including all our paid off assets it's play time. I think 2024 will be good to us.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2023, 01:03:02 AM by Bateaux »

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7403 on: December 30, 2023, 07:10:37 AM »
I guess we're all posting our 2023 year in review.
For me it has been a fantastic year. Our first grandchild was born in March. He's a great little guy and we just celebrated his first Christmas.
I did some winter backpacking in my home state of Louisiana. We actually have a few hills up north. It was in the 20s and that helped a lot. I did some light bicycle touring during the spring in Mississippi. I also got in some great bicycle rides in Florida. Then in May I took off for a grand adventure on the Appalachian Trail. I walked almost 450 miles across Tennessee and Virginia. Spending 6 weeks without a car was a first for me. There is both freedom and limits to being without a car far away from home. I remained injury free thankfully and didn't even get a blister. I treated myself along with my wife and some friends to a week in a Shenandoah National Park condo. It was a fantastic way to end my journey. During the heat of August Category 3 Hurricane Idealia roared into Taylor County Florida. We'd feared for days that it would hit our Citrus County home. It passed 100 miles to our north. I went to Florida the day before the storm to make preparation. Since we were fine, I went out and helped with the cleanup. I first went to Cedar Key and volunteered at a Methodist Church. The 150 year old church had never before flooded. That changed when a 12 foot storm surge hit the island. I ripped out stinking floors and walls all day. They were great people who fought back strongly. The next day I traveled up to Perry Florida which was ground zero for the storm. I joined Team Rubicon helping remove trees from houses. It was a different scene from Cedar Key. These people were hurting. I spent a day unloading cases of water and MREs from trucks. I got severely sunburned and that night went to bed in a hot building and no shower. Luckily, we eventually got showers, but no power for air conditioning. I would sit in my truck, air-conditioning running for a few minutes prior to getting in my army cot. I sweat off many pounds that week
I've since put all the weight I'd lost back on. I do have a cure for that. January 4th I won't be sleeping in my warm bed with my loving wife, I'll be starting the Florida Trail. January 2nd, I'll be driving to our Florida home. I'm going to quickly get some yard work done on the 3rd. On January 4th, I'm renting a car and driving it to Miami. In Miami I'll meet up with a fellow hiker and we'll be picked up by a shuttle driver that will transport us to the trailhead. The first 30 to 50 miles we'll be hiking in the Everglades. Big Cypress Preserve, where just last month a 17 foot, 200 pound python was caught. There is also bears and Florida Panthers. Toss in a few water moccasins and 12 foot alligators just for kicks. The main enemy is walking countless miles in mud, muck and up to waist deep water. The only points to camp are a few islands which are only a few feet above the water themselves. Biting insects see you as food. Your drinking water source is the same water you're walking in. I'll be chemically treating and filtering my water. Normally I just do one or the other. Once out of the swamp section the first week, I'll be rambling along canal banks, walking along an occasional busy highway, hiking up forest trails in slightly hilly terrain and marching through soft sugar sand. Our house is 425 miles from the start point and just 3 miles off the trail route. I have to make serious miles to make it back. On February 3rd I'll be joining a 350 mile mostly off-road mountain bike race in central Florida. I'll take the gear out of my backpack and add it to my bicycle packing bags. I hope to complete the race within a week. Some will ride the race almost without sleeping. I'll be carrying my camping gear. Eating in restaurants and probably spend more than one night in a hotel or hostel along the way. For me it's about completing the 350 loop. Luckily the loops passes within 5 miles of my house. After the bike race I'll do a little home maintenance and pack up for return to Louisiana for a while.  I'll be missing the family by then. I'm actually going to do a little work. I'll put in 3 days at work, then my wife and I are headed to Texas for her LSU Lady Basketball Tigers. We'll be playing Texas A&M. After returning home I'm going to work a few days more. My official retirement date is March 22, 2024. This past spring I gave a one year notice. Since in that period I had 21 weeks of paid time off to use within a 41 week period of time I felt foolish not to do so. In addition they'll award me the 2023 bonus and an additional one month pay bonus for the one year notice.  I'll have to put in 17 work days between February and March. No big deal.
In April I may get back to hiking the Florida Trail or skip up to the Pinhoti Trail in Georgia. It's all part of the Eastern Continental Divide Trail. It's over 4000 miles in total. It starts at Key West Florida and goes into Canada.
Plenty of other cool things happened like our trip to Las Vegas, but this post is long enough.
Financially 2023 was fantastic year for us. Money for us will most likely be a worry free commodity. With 3.5 million liquid and well into beyond territory including all our paid off assets it's play time. I think 2024 will be good to us.




It's good to hear that they caught that 200 lb snake before your hike through the swamp.  I'd hate to hear he caught you right before your retirement.  ;)


Do you carry a camera on your extreme hikes?  It would be great to see some of the views and animals you see along the way. 

arcturus

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7404 on: December 30, 2023, 07:57:23 AM »
Hmm we're both retired but our 0.69% WR seems to be having a similar effect of actively contributing.

At least during this bull market..:)

Amazing!  You are either well into "and Beyond" territory, or you have your spending much more contained than I do.  Definitely tells me that I have more work to do to get my spending more under control before pulling the RE trigger!  Well done, @Exflyboy !!

Well thanks.

And/or we have other income.. In our case two pesky rentals and a farm "business".

We also have future income in the form of smallish pensions and SS which increase in value every day. All of this is going to result in enormous tax bills come RMD time. Good problem to have though.

We don't spend much honestly, we are probably a little "too good" at not spending which results from a lifetime of practice.

We are not into "and beyond" territory.. At least not yet..:)

Aha!  That makes sense....a 1% withdrawal rate would be nowhere close for me!  But you seem to have found a good balance between earning some supplemental income and "coasting" into retirement.  A coast strategy remains a challenge for me to get my head around for me in my situation with my bigco employer.  And based on the prior wisdom you've shared on this thread re: ACA subsidy, it seems you are doing a great job of threading the needle in managing your income at the same time! 

I understand what you mean with becoming "too good" at not spending.  I would not say that's me, but there is another related aspect that I am concerned I will struggle with --- and that is becoming so accustomed to watching the stache grow that when RE does come for me, will I be able to watch the stache decline?  Interested in how others cope with that.  It feels like it could be stressful.  I guess you just have to trust the spreadsheets at that point.  Anyways, I'm not quite there yet.   But it is a concern.

arcturus

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7405 on: December 30, 2023, 08:15:27 AM »
I guess we're all posting our 2023 year in review.
For me it has been a fantastic year. Our first grandchild was born in March. He's a great little guy and we just celebrated his first Christmas.
I did some winter backpacking in my home state of Louisiana. We actually have a few hills up north. It was in the 20s and that helped a lot. I did some light bicycle touring during the spring in Mississippi. I also got in some great bicycle rides in Florida. Then in May I took off for a grand adventure on the Appalachian Trail. I walked almost 450 miles across Tennessee and Virginia. Spending 6 weeks without a car was a first for me. There is both freedom and limits to being without a car far away from home. I remained injury free thankfully and didn't even get a blister. I treated myself along with my wife and some friends to a week in a Shenandoah National Park condo. It was a fantastic way to end my journey. During the heat of August Category 3 Hurricane Idealia roared into Taylor County Florida. We'd feared for days that it would hit our Citrus County home. It passed 100 miles to our north. I went to Florida the day before the storm to make preparation. Since we were fine, I went out and helped with the cleanup. I first went to Cedar Key and volunteered at a Methodist Church. The 150 year old church had never before flooded. That changed when a 12 foot storm surge hit the island. I ripped out stinking floors and walls all day. They were great people who fought back strongly. The next day I traveled up to Perry Florida which was ground zero for the storm. I joined Team Rubicon helping remove trees from houses. It was a different scene from Cedar Key. These people were hurting. I spent a day unloading cases of water and MREs from trucks. I got severely sunburned and that night went to bed in a hot building and no shower. Luckily, we eventually got showers, but no power for air conditioning. I would sit in my truck, air-conditioning running for a few minutes prior to getting in my army cot. I sweat off many pounds that week
I've since put all the weight I'd lost back on. I do have a cure for that. January 4th I won't be sleeping in my warm bed with my loving wife, I'll be starting the Florida Trail. January 2nd, I'll be driving to our Florida home. I'm going to quickly get some yard work done on the 3rd. On January 4th, I'm renting a car and driving it to Miami. In Miami I'll meet up with a fellow hiker and we'll be picked up by a shuttle driver that will transport us to the trailhead. The first 30 to 50 miles we'll be hiking in the Everglades. Big Cypress Preserve, where just last month a 17 foot, 200 pound python was caught. There is also bears and Florida Panthers. Toss in a few water moccasins and 12 foot alligators just for kicks. The main enemy is walking countless miles in mud, muck and up to waist deep water. The only points to camp are a few islands which are only a few feet above the water themselves. Biting insects see you as food. Your drinking water source is the same water you're walking in. I'll be chemically treating and filtering my water. Normally I just do one or the other. Once out of the swamp section the first week, I'll be rambling along canal banks, walking along an occasional busy highway, hiking up forest trails in slightly hilly terrain and marching through soft sugar sand. Our house is 425 miles from the start point and just 3 miles off the trail route. I have to make serious miles to make it back. On February 3rd I'll be joining a 350 mile mostly off-road mountain bike race in central Florida. I'll take the gear out of my backpack and add it to my bicycle packing bags. I hope to complete the race within a week. Some will ride the race almost without sleeping. I'll be carrying my camping gear. Eating in restaurants and probably spend more than one night in a hotel or hostel along the way. For me it's about completing the 350 loop. Luckily the loops passes within 5 miles of my house. After the bike race I'll do a little home maintenance and pack up for return to Louisiana for a while.  I'll be missing the family by then. I'm actually going to do a little work. I'll put in 3 days at work, then my wife and I are headed to Texas for her LSU Lady Basketball Tigers. We'll be playing Texas A&M. After returning home I'm going to work a few days more. My official retirement date is March 22, 2024. This past spring I gave a one year notice. Since in that period I had 21 weeks of paid time off to use within a 41 week period of time I felt foolish not to do so. In addition they'll award me the 2023 bonus and an additional one month pay bonus for the one year notice.  I'll have to put in 17 work days between February and March. No big deal.
In April I may get back to hiking the Florida Trail or skip up to the Pinhoti Trail in Georgia. It's all part of the Eastern Continental Divide Trail. It's over 4000 miles in total. It starts at Key West Florida and goes into Canada.
Plenty of other cool things happened like our trip to Las Vegas, but this post is long enough.
Financially 2023 was fantastic year for us. Money for us will most likely be a worry free commodity. With 3.5 million liquid and well into beyond territory including all our paid off assets it's play time. I think 2024 will be good to us.

You have got it figured out @Bateaux !  You have definitely set yourself up to "retire to" something.  Sometimes I feel more like I'll be "retiring from" something.   Congrats on all your adventures and on your altruism - very good to hear!   I must be honest, I thought you already pulled the RE trigger over the summer...but clearly you have figured out how to ease into it with your employer, so good on you!

PS - and of course congrats on the new member of the family!
« Last Edit: December 30, 2023, 08:17:53 AM by arcturus »

arcturus

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7406 on: December 30, 2023, 08:27:43 AM »

In the spirit of moving to other topics, November and December have certainly been a breath of fresh air -- have they not?   Allowing me to close the year at ~$2.6 invested and ~$3.2 with home equity (may still be slightly conservative on the home equity estimate in this crazy RE market, where pricing your home seems to be more art than science).  When I look back at my annual goals, I am almost exactly 1 year behind now.  But given the depth of 2022, I'll take it for sure and its better than I would have anticipated.   

I trust that everyone on this thread has also had some really positive moves over the past 2 months....here's to continued positive movement in 2024!

Yep...the stock market moves over the last couple months have been nothing short of extraordinary, especially since many didn't expect it.  JPOW's hint of rate cuts were a face punch to the bears.  Since yields should be dropping next year, our holdings in Vanguard Wellesley should be well positioned as well.

I also actively trade stocks, which I'll admit isn't for the feint of heart.  However, it is a side gig hobby for me at this point, and I hit "multi baggers" in a couple holdings ( ALT for one ).   

All in all, this boosted us up to around 3.4 invested...and around 3.9 including the paid off house.   Just about at the "and beyond" threshold!

Good for you @farmecologist -- almost to "and Beyond."   Just looked at the stock chart for ALT -- wow.  That's like a 5-6 bagger, depending on your timing.   I've sworn off stock picking (for now :-)),  but am concerned about how concentrated I am getting in the Big 5-7 tech companies based on my index funds.  Have started to move some of the retirement funds (to avoid capital gains) into value and equal weighted index funds to try to balance things out a bit.   Hope your success continues in 2024!   

Simpli-Fi

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7407 on: December 30, 2023, 08:41:52 AM »
another related aspect that I am concerned I will struggle with --- and that is becoming so accustomed to watching the stache grow that when RE does come for me, will I be able to watch the stache decline?  Interested in how others cope with that.  It feels like it could be stressful.  I guess you just have to trust the spreadsheets at that point.  Anyways, I'm not quite there yet.   But it is a concern.
I think on this a lotÖeven though my aim is to have my NW peak at some point, the down slope is a little unnerving.  Even after downshifting (2021) and not heavily investing any longer, my liquid net worth has grown on average higher than my highest annual base salaryÖmath is working!

Arbitrage

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7408 on: December 30, 2023, 10:26:12 AM »
Greetings from another new entrant.  I've been hesitant to graduate from the last thread, but ran out of sub-$2M milestones to accomplish (liquid net worth only, ignoring college savings), so here I am!  Looking forward to discussing caviar, the Hamptons, the Rolls, and private schooling.

jeroly

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7409 on: December 30, 2023, 11:19:00 AM »
Greetings from another new entrant.  I've been hesitant to graduate from the last thread, but ran out of sub-$2M milestones to accomplish (liquid net worth only, ignoring college savings), so here I am!  Looking forward to discussing caviar, the Hamptons, the Rolls, and private schooling.
Welcome to the high life, @Arbitrage!

(Well, actually, for most of us here, we're the same lowlifes we were before we made this thread... for tips on living large you may need to look at the r/fatFIRE subreddit...)


ATtiny85

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7410 on: December 30, 2023, 12:21:29 PM »
Greetings from another new entrant.  I've been hesitant to graduate from the last thread, but ran out of sub-$2M milestones to accomplish (liquid net worth only, ignoring college savings), so here I am!  Looking forward to discussing caviar, the Hamptons, the Rolls, and private schooling.

Yeah, welcome. As noted over the last page or so, if you have a mortgage you are a lowlife as jeroly mentioned, and if you donít have one, you are also a lowlife. Recognizing our lowlifeness is a key to our continued success.

Congrats on checking off a series of milestones that really solidify your standing.

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7411 on: December 30, 2023, 05:00:19 PM »
Greetings from another new entrant.  I've been hesitant to graduate from the last thread, but ran out of sub-$2M milestones to accomplish (liquid net worth only, ignoring college savings), so here I am!  Looking forward to discussing caviar, the Hamptons, the Rolls, and private schooling.

Congrats! We are not yet quite at the Caviar/Rolls/house-in-the-Hamptons level as yet but perhaps in a few years :-) We had an incredible year and are within striking distance of double the upper bound of this group's name. In an effort to reduce our totals, we have drastically increased our charitable donations.

We also started enjoying the pleasures of luxury travel: One highlight was flying business class on Emirates to Asia (enjoyed drinks in the upper deck bar on the A380). Also flew first class to vacations in California and Mexico City. Used credit card points to stay in $500 per night hotels. Despite all of this, our travel expenses were only $31k. I have absolutely no guilt about this spending - we never traveled much in the past twenty years until I retired.

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7412 on: December 30, 2023, 05:01:00 PM »
another related aspect that I am concerned I will struggle with --- and that is becoming so accustomed to watching the stache grow that when RE does come for me, will I be able to watch the stache decline?  Interested in how others cope with that.  It feels like it could be stressful.  I guess you just have to trust the spreadsheets at that point.  Anyways, I'm not quite there yet.   But it is a concern.
I think on this a lotÖeven though my aim is to have my NW peak at some point, the down slope is a little unnerving.  Even after downshifting (2021) and not heavily investing any longer, my liquid net worth has grown on average higher than my highest annual base salaryÖmath is working!

This brings up an interesting point (to me at least). in that why do we focus on the size of the stash but we don't focus on how much income that stash will generate.

You both said it.. I.e, being a bit un nerved at watching the stash decline in value.. As if the size of the stash itself is whats important.. But not the income that stash will generate.

I too am guilty of this, to the point that I completely ignored how much our pensions an SS would generate, all while making the stash as big as possible. Even today I really don't think about how much guaranteed income I will have in addition to my stash.. Just "worry" about the stash itself.

This is a bit off base to my mind. I mean our total NW is around $3.6M (including house). But if I wait till 70 years old the pensions alone will be worth around $100k.

At 4%, the required additional NW to make that $100k is about $2.5M (assuming I lived to 100 years). Now you would have to do a net present value calculation to determine what the lump sump value of that pension is but in reality its meaningless.

I suggest a more useful number is to convert the NW into income and add the pension value that.

Anyway, I can say at a WR of less than 1%, the stash has continued to climb in the last 10 years that I have not had a "grown up" job.. Hardly surprising.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7413 on: December 30, 2023, 06:25:33 PM »
@arcturus
I hope I have it figured out. I was able to extend my employment and while doing so arrange to spend a massive amount of paid time off.  I hope to enjoy adventure sports for a while to come.

ixtap

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7414 on: December 30, 2023, 07:36:40 PM »
No house in The Hamptons, but we did stay in a Hampton Inn last week! It was pretty on par with our usual Holiday Inn Express, except the bed was less comfy.

Car Jack

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7415 on: December 30, 2023, 08:56:53 PM »
Oooooo, Hampton Inn.  Free full breakfast.  Hmmmmm, breakfast.

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7416 on: December 30, 2023, 09:12:25 PM »
Oooooo, Hampton Inn.  Free full breakfast.  Hmmmmm, breakfast.

And this folks is how we get to "beyond" territory ..:)

SwordGuy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7417 on: December 30, 2023, 09:29:32 PM »
This brings up an interesting point (to me at least). in that why do we focus on the size of the stash but we don't focus on how much income that stash will generate.

That's exactly why I started this thread: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-close-to-fi-are-you-what's-your-current-of-your-target-passive-income/ to encourage people to track their FI progress based on the % of FI income their stash would generate instead of stash sizes.


SwordGuy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7418 on: December 30, 2023, 10:56:42 PM »
We spent a lot over the last few months getting a number of health and safety-related improvements to our home plus some significant charitable giving.   We had just gotten over the $4M NW mark.  Now we're $70K below it, but we'll be well over it next month when the last of my wife's inheritance comes in.  And all the big expenses are already paid for.   

Can't take credit for it, just luck on that bit. 

We could afford it either way but it was easier to make ourselves spend the "extra" money rather than our regular stash.

weebs

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7419 on: December 31, 2023, 05:33:03 AM »

At 4%, the required additional NW to make that $100k is about $2.5M (assuming I lived to 100 years). Now you would have to do a net present value calculation to determine what the lump sump value of that pension is but in reality its meaningless.

Totally agree.  I'm focused on the combined monthly income of our pensions and give zero craps about the lump sum values.

I hope to enjoy adventure sports for a while to come.

That's my plan..minus the snakes and gators.  ;-)

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7420 on: December 31, 2023, 05:53:16 AM »
As someone with a pension starting mid 2025.  Mt goal is to keep basic living expenses below the Pension amount, everything else is fluff foe life.

BeanCounter

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7421 on: December 31, 2023, 07:09:45 AM »
This brings up an interesting point (to me at least). in that why do we focus on the size of the stash but we don't focus on how much income that stash will generate.

That's exactly why I started this thread: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-close-to-fi-are-you-what's-your-current-of-your-target-passive-income/ to encourage people to track their FI progress based on the % of FI income their stash would generate instead of stash sizes.

Most difficult thing for us is figuring out how much we will really spend over the next 40-50 years. Our current spend is so high because of tuition and other kid costs. But in 8-10 years when they are hopefully fully independent what will it be? What will healthcare cost just the two of us if DH finally joins me in RE? How many home repairs or renovations do we have left to do? Or maybe we should move? Anyway, you get my point. Thatís why Iím not sure if we are at 90%, 100%, or 110%.
At some point I think we have to agree that $4M has to be enough. It really canít be possible to need more than that in middle America.

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7422 on: December 31, 2023, 11:46:31 AM »
This brings up an interesting point (to me at least). in that why do we focus on the size of the stash but we don't focus on how much income that stash will generate.

That's exactly why I started this thread: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-close-to-fi-are-you-what's-your-current-of-your-target-passive-income/ to encourage people to track their FI progress based on the % of FI income their stash would generate instead of stash sizes.

Most difficult thing for us is figuring out how much we will really spend over the next 40-50 years. Our current spend is so high because of tuition and other kid costs. But in 8-10 years when they are hopefully fully independent what will it be? What will healthcare cost just the two of us if DH finally joins me in RE? How many home repairs or renovations do we have left to do? Or maybe we should move? Anyway, you get my point. Thatís why Iím not sure if we are at 90%, 100%, or 110%.
At some point I think we have to agree that $4M has to be enough. It really canít be possible to need more than that in middle America.

Exactly.. I find myself worrying about RMDs in 13 years time.. Like who cares?

Somehow I think around the $4M mark (or the income equivalent of) is a bit like that scene in the Matrix when Keanu suddenly realises that everything (money in our case) is just data and ultimately meaningless, at least it is as long you don't go buy a new yacht every week.

JGS1980

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7423 on: December 31, 2023, 12:07:10 PM »
Quarterly Update:
July-20    $1,128,599 (+197,143)
Oct-20     $1,233,581 (+104,981) *Milestone reached -over 1 million in liquid investments.
Jan-21     $1,468,865 (+235,284 for the quarter, +374,258 for the year))
April-21   $1,594,119 (+125,254)
July-21    $1,714,855 (+120,736)
Oct-21     $1,729,455 (+14,599)
Jan-22     $1,920,469 (+191,014 for the quarter, +451,604 for the year)
April-22   $1,864,657 (-$55,812)
July-22    $1,680,190 (-184,167)
Oct-22     *Did Not Calculate
Jan-23     $1,821,385 (DNC)
April-23   $1,953,913 (+132,528) *Milestone -over 1.5 million liquid
July-23    $2,092,670 (+138,757) ***Sabbatical Time***

Proud to join this illustrious race/club. Been enjoying the musings here for years. I'm not really racing at this point, however, as I just quit my job yesterday and am now officially on sabbatical. Not quite FAT-FIRED, more like COAST FIRED right now, which is fine by me. Thanks everyone here for all the motivation and insight over the years. This community is a priceless resource.

JGS

If I had known about sabbatical years ago, I may have continued my education.  My older brother became a professor.  Quite a number of years back he told me he was taking the next year as a sabbatical.  I asked him, "What's that?"  Then he told me and I replied, "You've got to be kidding."  Enjoy your long reprieve.  With your savings, you may not need to go back.

Not a real sabbatical. More like I quit my job and don't plan to work for at least 6 months. But I prefer to call it a sabbatical as people find that to be a more reassuring concept. Either way, I plan to rest my brain and body a bit.

End of year update:

So I didn't work for 6 months... and it was glorious. Traveled for 60 days. Completed all the home projects I never had time to do before. Rested my body and my mind. Focused on doing nothing intentionally as well. Read a bunch of books. Reconnected with my spouse in new ways. Meanwhile, net worth went UP about 100K. Compound interest is a mind bender, really.

Sabbatical over, I'm headed back to work 4 days a week on Tuesday. I only committed to 6 months, and we will see how it goes. I think I'm hungry right now, but we will see if that lasts.

Keep on coming with all the input above. I may not be posting as much of late, but every now and then I get online and enjoy these stories and update.

JGS

couponvan

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7424 on: December 31, 2023, 12:47:48 PM »
Year end update. $3.1, up from prior yearís amount several hundred thousand. My take home free taxes and saving in 401(k) was $47K. We have two to three more years left on the ďwallet yearsĒ until the youngest graduates from college. I would like to be moved to CA sooner rather than later, but interest rates are throwing a wrench in those plans. Iím spending today reading Pathfinders. Funny enough, I drive a 2018 Pathfinder. I may want to change my handle to couponFInder.

Midwest_Handlebar

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7425 on: December 31, 2023, 01:21:48 PM »
We're @ $2.4M, up $400k this year, even though I quit in May. This has been bizarrely consistent for the past 3 years. Believe we'll hit the "beyond" territory in another 3 years as I optimize our rentals, and have a planned "liquidity event".

iris lily

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7426 on: December 31, 2023, 04:28:21 PM »
Today we completed our annual asset review and are back up a number in the 2 comma place.

Edited to make sense, and we crossed over the $3 million mark again, after dipping down last year.

Because we have been doing a gut renovation on an old house over the past two years, a LOT of cash went out and we were bouncing over and under the $3 million line.

 This is a project where we will end ip with more $ in this house than we will ever get out of it.  But thatís fine. We knew that going into the project, it didnít matter.

I am also dedicated to giving larger charitable donations in upcoming years and so, if our net worth drops I am prepared to be ok with that.

P.s. we have been retired 9 years. Doesnt seem that long!
« Last Edit: January 12, 2024, 03:21:43 PM by iris lily »

iris lily

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7427 on: December 31, 2023, 04:37:17 PM »
Iím not sure of the answer or why but from my experience those with generational wealth are often more frugal than those who started out poor. Iím generalizing of course.
I think kids just pick up the values of the house to some degree.
I know in our house we do absolutely ZERO recreational shopping. We only go to a store if we need something. And we often buy used. So the thought of going into a store and buying something new, that you donít need, for no other reason other than you just want it really hasnít occurred to my boys yet.
I think they donít want for much because they donít see their parents wanting much.

I don't know why I found this so funny. Recreational shopping... haha. Really? That people do this is incredible, but I know it happens a lot.

I think recreational shopping is happening less often tho. At least, happening less in standard shopping malls.

Ladies who lunch and go antique shopping are still a thing, or lunch and visit enclaves of dumb little shoppes full oí twee crap you donít need.

I live in a tourist town where the twee shoppes thrive. And all of the crap in those stores are mass produced in China,so what is the point of it?

But I will confwss to antique shopping. I always have a list of things I am hunting.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2023, 04:48:42 PM by iris lily »

BlueHouse

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7428 on: December 31, 2023, 05:12:10 PM »


ACA is 100% not a factor for me.  I will never be on an ACA plan.  That is the personal for me.  Mainly Iím giving an example of how not paying off the mortgage is good for me, as you are using your mortgage payoff as a good for you.

I'm curious about the part where you will "never be on an ACA plan".  particularly what you would do if you weren't able to get any other insurance coverage? 
****
To be clear, I don't care about and do not want to hear about any political opinions.   Thank you
****
But are you aware that in some places, if you're self-employed, the only option is to purchase private insurance through the ACA marketplace?  I won't go into what a godsend that was for me, even allowing me to start a business and retire early, but I am interested to know what you would do in that situation? 
Are you aware that as an ACA member, I have the same Carefirst BCBS as everyone else in my location? 

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7429 on: December 31, 2023, 11:36:57 PM »


ACA is 100% not a factor for me.  I will never be on an ACA plan.  That is the personal for me.  Mainly Iím giving an example of how not paying off the mortgage is good for me, as you are using your mortgage payoff as a good for you.

I'm curious about the part where you will "never be on an ACA plan".  particularly what you would do if you weren't able to get any other insurance coverage? 
****
To be clear, I don't care about and do not want to hear about any political opinions.   Thank you
****
But are you aware that in some places, if you're self-employed, the only option is to purchase private insurance through the ACA marketplace?  I won't go into what a godsend that was for me, even allowing me to start a business and retire early, but I am interested to know what you would do in that situation? 
Are you aware that as an ACA member, I have the same Carefirst BCBS as everyone else in my location?

Because I will always be covered under the Federal Employees Health Benefits.  As in I have work provided benefits after I retire.  No politics involved at all.

ETA:  even if congress votes away my retiree health coverage, my pension income will put me above the 400% for a single person to be eligible for the ACA.  So basically income and the ACA is again never a factor.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2024, 11:15:13 AM by Fomerly known as something »

libertarian4321

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7430 on: January 01, 2024, 01:59:09 AM »
We hit $10M shortly before Christmas.  Seemed pretty cool to finally get there after all these years, so we celebrated with a movie and a fancy dinner at Longhorn Steakhouse.  Spent well over $100, partying like rockstars.

Then we hit the library on the way home and borrowed some free books and DVDs. 

Unfortunately, we paid out a lot of EOY charitable contributions last week and are probably around $9.9M now.

We hope to hit $10M this year!

Much Fishing to Do

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7431 on: January 01, 2024, 06:44:10 AM »
We hit $10M shortly before Christmas.  Seemed pretty cool to finally get there after all these years, so we celebrated with a movie and a fancy dinner at Longhorn Steakhouse.  Spent well over $100, partying like rockstars.

Then we hit the library on the way home and borrowed some free books and DVDs. 

Unfortunately, we paid out a lot of EOY charitable contributions last week and are probably around $9.9M now.

We hope to hit $10M this year!

Wow, thats a big number.  I was to $4.9M in Nov 2021 and prematurely celebrating $5M but put money into some riverfront retirement property, and my investments have definitely recovered slower from the 2022 drop than the S&P500, so I'm just now getting back up to $4.7M.  Hoping to hit the $5M in 2024.  I'll have 2 in college so that'll draw down the 529s faster, but then the oldest will be graduated at the end of the year.  I am currently very lucky to have a 20 hr/wk from home challenging and well paying job which I prefer over not working for now as I'm still locked into home base for a few more years anyway with one more kid in high school and a spouse with a few more years on her big work project I know I could not convince her to leave.  This job sometimes seems tenuous so just working on my terms for as long as everyone is happy with the situation.  I have my investments set up like I want them for when I do retire fully, as I thought I would be a year ago before this downshifting option came along, so whenever I or they decide its not working out it'll be a easy transition.

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7432 on: January 01, 2024, 09:47:10 PM »
We hit $10M shortly before Christmas.  Seemed pretty cool to finally get there after all these years, so we celebrated with a movie and a fancy dinner at Longhorn Steakhouse.  Spent well over $100, partying like rockstars.

Then we hit the library on the way home and borrowed some free books and DVDs. 

Unfortunately, we paid out a lot of EOY charitable contributions last week and are probably around $9.9M now.

We hope to hit $10M this year!

Dayum!... I hope you live for another 50 years otherwise I might suggest you worked a tad too long before retiring..:)

Well done!

jeroly

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7433 on: January 01, 2024, 09:51:44 PM »
2023 yielded some good financial numbers for us - the numbers are so good in fact, that when I did the 3Q23 financial assessment, I didn't realize that I had left out the $600k in my sweetie's (vested) cash balance pension accounts, and I didn't catch the mistake until doing 4Q23's... we're not quite at libertarian4321's lofty totals, but not that far behind...

Unfortunately, I don't know if there's a number big enough to get my sweetie to stop working.  She happens to like what she does, and she finds it hard to turn off the firehose of cash they keep aiming at her. I don't think there's a 'number' that will motivate her to quit as long as she's getting satisfaction from the work, which is a bummer for me as I'm FIREd and I'd love to do my traveling with her instead of alone or with other friends.  (At least she's very okay with me venturing off without her.)

Remembering those cash balance accounts did raise a financial issue though - we are probably underweight equities despite the market's recovery. We're at about 50% equities, 40% in variations of FI (muni funds, money market, treasuries, bond funds as part of target date funds, deferred comp accounts, savings accounts, and those cash balance pension accounts), and 10% home equity.  We changed my sweetie's future 401(k) contributions to equity-only ETFs (from TDFs) and are reinvesting dividends, but will also probably also move $200k out of savings into international equities to further address the issue.  (We're also overweight US so that will kill two birds with one check.)

Lots of good travel happened this year and lots more is planned for 2024 - in 2023 I got to Chile, the Baltics (Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia), did hiking in the three US national parks in Washington State, visited Yorkshire, got up to NYC a few times to meet up with friends as well as to see some of the US Open tennis, toured Korea, and finished up the year with a holiday visit to Seattle.  I was looking at a trip to Guatemala this January, but I've been called for jury duty so the 2024 travel will probably start with a month in New Zealand from mid-February to mid-March (it will include hiking the Milford, Kepler, and Routeburn tracks)... followed by Indonesia (visiting a friend in Jogjakarta, then onward to Sumatra and Sulawesi) in April, Bulgaria and Albania in May, Great Basin and Capital Reef NPs in July, Tanzania and Kenya in August, Hunan (China) in October, and Costa Rica in December!

Wishing everyone peace, love, and happiness in the new year.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2024, 09:30:00 AM by jeroly »

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7434 on: January 02, 2024, 03:59:18 AM »
Unfortunately, I don't know if there's a number big enough to get my sweetie to stop working.  She happens to like what she does, and she finds it hard to turn off the firehose of cash they keep throwing at her. I don't think there's a 'number' that will motivate her to quit as long as she's getting satisfaction from the work, which is a bummer for me as I'm FIREd and I'd love to do my traveling with her instead of alone or with other friends.  (At least she's very okay with me venturing off without her.)

Wow - very similar situation prevails in my household 😀 I am extremely happy to be retired but my wife enjoys her job has no intention of retiring just yet. And similar to your situation, they throw a lot of money at my wife too.

The main difference is that, while I do enjoy travel, my happiness mainly comes from working on my model trains either at home or at my train club. I just spent two enjoyable months building a new train control software framework - finally got it running yesterday! So I don't really need a lot of travel to keep me satisfied.

That said, we did manage to have a few memorable vacations in 2023. We don't travel a lot but when we do, it's in luxury. We did two big trips including one to Asia on Emirates in business class - we enjoyed drinks in the bar on the upper deck bar of the A380. Of course, the real luxury is not having to return to work after a trip.

I just compiled our 2023 expenses from Quicken where I track expenses and found that we had spent about $32k on travel. I just did a quick calculation and found that even with such a lavish travel budget, our savings are over 60X in terms of expenses.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7435 on: January 02, 2024, 07:32:07 AM »
As I was making my yearly Backdoor Roth and HSA investments yesterday, I looked back at the financial plan that I had drawn up when I was deciding between getting a modest mortgage and paying cash for a home in 2017.  I discovered that over the past 6 years, my net worth has basically gone up the same amount as Iíve earned over those year.  Compounding is great.

jeroly

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7436 on: January 02, 2024, 08:04:52 AM »
Unfortunately, I don't know if there's a number big enough to get my sweetie to stop working.  She happens to like what she does, and she finds it hard to turn off the firehose of cash they keep throwing at her. I don't think there's a 'number' that will motivate her to quit as long as she's getting satisfaction from the work, which is a bummer for me as I'm FIREd and I'd love to do my traveling with her instead of alone or with other friends.  (At least she's very okay with me venturing off without her.)

Wow - very similar situation prevails in my household 😀 I am extremely happy to be retired but my wife enjoys her job has no intention of retiring just yet. And similar to your situation, they throw a lot of money at my wife too.

The main difference is that, while I do enjoy travel, my happiness mainly comes from working on my model trains either at home or at my train club. I just spent two enjoyable months building a new train control software framework - finally got it running yesterday! So I don't really need a lot of travel to keep me satisfied.

That said, we did manage to have a few memorable vacations in 2023. We don't travel a lot but when we do, it's in luxury. We did two big trips including one to Asia on Emirates in business class - we enjoyed drinks in the bar on the upper deck bar of the A380. Of course, the real luxury is not having to return to work after a trip.

I just compiled our 2023 expenses from Quicken where I track expenses and found that we had spent about $32k on travel. I just did a quick calculation and found that even with such a lavish travel budget, our savings are over 60X in terms of expenses.
For me, 'luxury' travel is not sleeping on a cement bench outside the Honolulu airport on a 20 hour layover but paying to stay at a hotel in Honolulu instead... and I still can't bring myself to do it, despite having the $pineapples to do so.

Actually, I did bump up my (individual) travel budget last year from $15k to $23k. I wanted to both account for inflationary effects as well as to allow myself to splurge a bit. However, I actually spent around my usual $15k (plus another $5k or so for my sweetie's travels) anyway.   I wound up traveling with friends more than anticipated (cutting accommodation and car rental costs) and did one less trip than I had planned, but the bigger factor is that I really find it tough to spend more than I really need to... I suppose that's a good thing, although my back and hips must have disagreed after that night on that bench...
« Last Edit: January 02, 2024, 08:59:22 AM by jeroly »

farmecologist

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7437 on: January 02, 2024, 08:10:57 AM »

In the spirit of moving to other topics, November and December have certainly been a breath of fresh air -- have they not?   Allowing me to close the year at ~$2.6 invested and ~$3.2 with home equity (may still be slightly conservative on the home equity estimate in this crazy RE market, where pricing your home seems to be more art than science).  When I look back at my annual goals, I am almost exactly 1 year behind now.  But given the depth of 2022, I'll take it for sure and its better than I would have anticipated.   

I trust that everyone on this thread has also had some really positive moves over the past 2 months....here's to continued positive movement in 2024!

Yep...the stock market moves over the last couple months have been nothing short of extraordinary, especially since many didn't expect it.  JPOW's hint of rate cuts were a face punch to the bears.  Since yields should be dropping next year, our holdings in Vanguard Wellesley should be well positioned as well.

I also actively trade stocks, which I'll admit isn't for the feint of heart.  However, it is a side gig hobby for me at this point, and I hit "multi baggers" in a couple holdings ( ALT for one ).   

All in all, this boosted us up to around 3.4 invested...and around 3.9 including the paid off house.   Just about at the "and beyond" threshold!

Good for you @farmecologist -- almost to "and Beyond."   Just looked at the stock chart for ALT -- wow.  That's like a 5-6 bagger, depending on your timing.   I've sworn off stock picking (for now :-)),  but am concerned about how concentrated I am getting in the Big 5-7 tech companies based on my index funds.  Have started to move some of the retirement funds (to avoid capital gains) into value and equal weighted index funds to try to balance things out a bit.   Hope your success continues in 2024!

Thanks! Trust me...I have had plenty of stock trading failures as well.  I treat those as learning moments...and there is a LOT to learn.  Thankfully, so far the big winners have vastly outweighed the losers.   I can also "tax loss harvest" the losers as well ( but losses are never a good thing )...haha. 

Stock trading is all about detachment of emotion from your trades...that takes a very long time to learn, and why many of us fail ( especially when starting out ).  You are also battling machine algos, afterall.  I think of it similar to "the terminator" movies...the little guy against "skynet"! 

This is why we are pretty conservative with our 401k funds ( vanguard Wellesley Admiral, etc.. ).  Overall, we have a pretty good stock/bond/cash mix at this point. 

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7438 on: January 02, 2024, 09:13:11 AM »
For me, 'luxury' travel is not sleeping on a cement bench outside the Honolulu airport on a 20 hour layover but paying to stay at a hotel in Honolulu instead... and I still can't bring myself to do it, despite having the $pineapples to do so.

I will not deny it - I like having a chauffeur waiting with a placard with my name on it when I arrive at a new airport :-)

jeroly

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7439 on: January 02, 2024, 09:22:07 AM »
For me, 'luxury' travel is not sleeping on a cement bench outside the Honolulu airport on a 20 hour layover but paying to stay at a hotel in Honolulu instead... and I still can't bring myself to do it, despite having the $pineapples to do so.

I will not deny it - I like having a chauffeur waiting with a placard with my name on it when I arrive at a new airport :-)
I like pretending to be a chauffeur when meeting friends arriving at an airport, holding up a sign like 'Latvian Flatulence Society Welcomes _______'

arcturus

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7440 on: January 02, 2024, 09:23:38 AM »
This brings up an interesting point (to me at least). in that why do we focus on the size of the stash but we don't focus on how much income that stash will generate.

That's exactly why I started this thread: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-close-to-fi-are-you-what's-your-current-of-your-target-passive-income/ to encourage people to track their FI progress based on the % of FI income their stash would generate instead of stash sizes.

Most difficult thing for us is figuring out how much we will really spend over the next 40-50 years. Our current spend is so high because of tuition and other kid costs. But in 8-10 years when they are hopefully fully independent what will it be? What will healthcare cost just the two of us if DH finally joins me in RE? How many home repairs or renovations do we have left to do? Or maybe we should move? Anyway, you get my point. Thatís why Iím not sure if we are at 90%, 100%, or 110%.
At some point I think we have to agree that $4M has to be enough. It really canít be possible to need more than that in middle America.

I'm in a similar situation @BeanCounter, although it sounds like I may be a bit further along in getting on the other side of most of the kid costs (hopefully, although as I write this I am still in that "transition" phase for 2 of mine, where they are not yet independent but you hope that they will be within 12 months or so).   The real estate / move question is one of the most unsettled ones for me as well.   Perhaps 2024 will bring some clarity to that, if the real estate market begins to stabilize and inventory begins to appear.  And agree with you on the $4M point, if you're in a moderate / average COL location -- it seems like it has to be enough.

OTOH, I read with great interest posts like those above from @Bateaux , @jeroly , @JGS1980 on their travel adventures, and I must confess this is an item that I have been reflecting on regrading my earlier mention of "retiring to" something rather than "retiring from" something.  And I do have concerns that I may be under-budgeted for travel during retirement.    But I think at some point you just need to pull the trigger and make it work.   So I would say these are my three biggest open factors right now (real estate / mortgage, travel, ticking clock) as I think about whether my target is 2025 or 2026.  Going to see what happens in 2024 and go from there.

Happy new year to all and wish you all health, happiness and peace in 2024.

farmecologist

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7441 on: January 02, 2024, 11:47:24 AM »
This brings up an interesting point (to me at least). in that why do we focus on the size of the stash but we don't focus on how much income that stash will generate.

That's exactly why I started this thread: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/how-close-to-fi-are-you-what's-your-current-of-your-target-passive-income/ to encourage people to track their FI progress based on the % of FI income their stash would generate instead of stash sizes.

Most difficult thing for us is figuring out how much we will really spend over the next 40-50 years. Our current spend is so high because of tuition and other kid costs. But in 8-10 years when they are hopefully fully independent what will it be? What will healthcare cost just the two of us if DH finally joins me in RE? How many home repairs or renovations do we have left to do? Or maybe we should move? Anyway, you get my point. Thatís why Iím not sure if we are at 90%, 100%, or 110%.
At some point I think we have to agree that $4M has to be enough. It really canít be possible to need more than that in middle America.

I'm in a similar situation @BeanCounter, although it sounds like I may be a bit further along in getting on the other side of most of the kid costs (hopefully, although as I write this I am still in that "transition" phase for 2 of mine, where they are not yet independent but you hope that they will be within 12 months or so).   The real estate / move question is one of the most unsettled ones for me as well.   Perhaps 2024 will bring some clarity to that, if the real estate market begins to stabilize and inventory begins to appear.  And agree with you on the $4M point, if you're in a moderate / average COL location -- it seems like it has to be enough.

OTOH, I read with great interest posts like those above from @Bateaux , @jeroly , @JGS1980 on their travel adventures, and I must confess this is an item that I have been reflecting on regrading my earlier mention of "retiring to" something rather than "retiring from" something.  And I do have concerns that I may be under-budgeted for travel during retirement.    But I think at some point you just need to pull the trigger and make it work.   So I would say these are my three biggest open factors right now (real estate / mortgage, travel, ticking clock) as I think about whether my target is 2025 or 2026.  Going to see what happens in 2024 and go from there.

Happy new year to all and wish you all health, happiness and peace in 2024.

Similar situation here as well.  However, this will be the LAST semester of college costs for both kids.  Kid #1 is graduating with a masters degree and will get a job.  Kid #2 is graduating undergrad with a double major ( physics and astrophysics ).  We are hoping he can land a fully paid grad school gig.  If not, he will get a job as well.

We have the travel bug as well.  However, we have kind on splurged on a couple Viking cruises ( a river cruise last summer and an upcoming transatlantic in April ).  Yes...I'm sorry to say that we have a bit of a "luxury travel" bug.  Don't hate me...haha.  However, Viking does run free international airfare and beverage package deals every now and then, which if you snag it makes the per-day cost relatively "reasonable".   I never have really liked cruises when we did them on more traditional lines....but Viking really is a huge step above any other cruise line we have experienced ( small ships, no kids, only balcony rooms, etc... ).  The odd thing is that Viking passengers lean older, and we are usually one of the younger couples on the ship, but that is fine with us.  Older travelers often seem to be more laid back than many younger folks do..at least on Viking.  Some of them are amazingly fit for their age as well, believe it or not.

We also like non-luxury travel as well though, and I foresee that being the bulk of our travel in retirement.

As for work, don't get me started.  Not sure how much more I can take of my tech megacorp after 30+ years.


« Last Edit: January 02, 2024, 11:49:27 AM by farmecologist »

LoanShark

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7442 on: January 02, 2024, 02:48:50 PM »
         Liquid / TNW
12/17 $391k / $911k
12/18 $485k / $1.15M
12/19 $979k / $1.54M
12/20 $1.35M / $1.93M

2/21 $1.55M / $2.14M

Joining this thread and looking forward to the journey to $4M...and Beyond with you guys & gals!

Year end update:

12/21 $2.0M / $2.8M

Officially hit $2MM liquid!

Feels amazing as that # was my original "FI" value. I've since moved that to $2.5MM to throw off $100k annually, pre-tax. We've never spent that much but our budget allows for ~$75-80k of spend annual, so I felt that I needed to gross it up to account for taxes.

If we do nothing, and the market holds up at ~8% annually, we should hit $2.5MM in <3-years. We'll see what happens then, but it's starting to feel very real. Like this is actually going to happen...especially considering that we can kind of let this thing run on auto-pilot from a contribution perspective and it'll happen in the near term (in all likelihood, at least).

We'll have to do some soul searching then to decide if DW, or both of us, will want to hang it up. Maybe we're SWAMI's? Who knows. Cross that bridge when it gets here!

Year end update:

12/23 $2.7M / $3.5M

We hit our FI #! Feels weird to read what I wrote 2 years ago and see it come to fruition. For now we're just SWAMI's. DW has a few years until she's fully vested in a pension (not included in our #s above). I have to say, it feels great to be working for "sport" vs "having" to.

More soul searching to come!

BlueHouse

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7443 on: January 04, 2024, 07:33:45 AM »


ACA is 100% not a factor for me.  I will never be on an ACA plan.  That is the personal for me.  Mainly Iím giving an example of how not paying off the mortgage is good for me, as you are using your mortgage payoff as a good for you.

I'm curious about the part where you will "never be on an ACA plan".  particularly what you would do if you weren't able to get any other insurance coverage? 
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To be clear, I don't care about and do not want to hear about any political opinions.   Thank you
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But are you aware that in some places, if you're self-employed, the only option is to purchase private insurance through the ACA marketplace?  I won't go into what a godsend that was for me, even allowing me to start a business and retire early, but I am interested to know what you would do in that situation? 
Are you aware that as an ACA member, I have the same Carefirst BCBS as everyone else in my location?

Because I will always be covered under the Federal Employees Health Benefits.  As in I have work provided benefits after I retire.  No politics involved at all.

ETA:  even if congress votes away my retiree health coverage, my pension income will put me above the 400% for a single person to be eligible for the ACA.  So basically income and the ACA is again never a factor.
Ah, thanks for the response.  When you said "this is personal for me", I completely misunderstood. 
Healthcare for me is probably my biggest concern for the next 10 years (until I'm medicare eligible), and I fret over the political jousting every year.  So I'm highly jealous of your situation.  All the best!

Shuchong

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7444 on: January 06, 2024, 06:18:12 PM »
Since ACA is coming up as a topic:  I realized that my taxable brokerage account paid enough in dividends this year to keep me on an ACA plan and off of medicaid.  That's despite it being in total stock market and total international index funds (so not optimized for dividends). 

That was a fun new milestone for me, since if I ever do FIRE, ACA will be part of the plan. 

Also, this was the first year that I thought hmmm... if the market keeps cooperating, in a few more years I might be close to living off dividends and interest alone.  I'm uber conservative and have health issues that would make it difficult to find a job comparable to what I have now, but if I can account for all my annual expenses with dividends, that has to be enough to quit working. 

Much Fishing to Do

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7445 on: January 07, 2024, 06:37:13 AM »
Since ACA is coming up as a topic:  I realized that my taxable brokerage account paid enough in dividends this year to keep me on an ACA plan and off of medicaid.  That's despite it being in total stock market and total international index funds (so not optimized for dividends). 

That was a fun new milestone for me, since if I ever do FIRE, ACA will be part of the plan. 

Also, this was the first year that I thought hmmm... if the market keeps cooperating, in a few more years I might be close to living off dividends and interest alone.  I'm uber conservative and have health issues that would make it difficult to find a job comparable to what I have now, but if I can account for all my annual expenses with dividends, that has to be enough to quit working.

I did notice my dividends, interest, and end of year distributions this year was for the first time enough to cover my spending after what I expect to receive in SS, but that will not be for 15 years or so not quite as exciting, but if my portfolio holds.up I guess I'll get there.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7446 on: January 09, 2024, 02:19:05 AM »
Florida Trail update. Tuesday the 2nd I worked a full shift. I drove home and shortly after got on the road for the 600 mile drive to the Florida home. Got there Wednesday morning slept, did yard work, unpacked the truck of things moved from Louisiana. Thursday morning I rode my bicycle to Enterprise to rent a car. I had picked cheapest one way to Miami. They gave me a BMW SUV. That car is incredible. Dropped off the bicycle and loaded my backpack. I drove down to Miami International to turn in the car and get picked up by a shuttle along with another hiker flying in from Arizona. We camped that night at a campground in the Everglades. Friday morning we were dropped off at the trail at Big Cypress Preserve. We hit the trail dry at first and then almost endless swamp. I spent 4 days and 3 nights crossing the 30 plus miles of Everglades. I've never been so exhausted hiking. The water was generally knee deep, but at times waist deep. You camp on tiny island barely out of the water. The ground seeps water and nothing is dry. Saturday night heavy rain and winds hit early. I sheltered in my tent for 14 hours without getting out. I packed up and walked in the rain Sunday. Monday morning I packed up and hiked out to Alligator Alley Interstate 75. I called a friend who lives about an hour away for some relief from the conditions. The mosquitoes are demonic. I'm pretty busted up and need to get my skin dry for a while. Lots of bruises and abrasions. We went out for Italian food and I loved it. I needed to replenish with real food and not just what I was carrying. I'm at their home now and in a dry bed. Nothing is more valuable than friends.
I'll be back on trail soon. My 55 year old body gave what was needed to cross over 30 miles of swamp. Now I'm relaxing and resting it a bit.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2024, 02:23:02 AM by Bateaux »

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7447 on: January 09, 2024, 07:22:13 AM »
People think I'm crazy when I tell them I'm excited for this half marathon coming up this weekend, but you've got me beat hands down @Bateaux !

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7448 on: January 09, 2024, 10:40:44 AM »
Florida Trail update. Tuesday the 2nd I worked a full shift. I drove home and shortly after got on the road for the 600 mile drive to the Florida home. Got there Wednesday morning slept, did yard work, unpacked the truck of things moved from Louisiana. Thursday morning I rode my bicycle to Enterprise to rent a car. I had picked cheapest one way to Miami. They gave me a BMW SUV. That car is incredible. Dropped off the bicycle and loaded my backpack. I drove down to Miami International to turn in the car and get picked up by a shuttle along with another hiker flying in from Arizona. We camped that night at a campground in the Everglades. Friday morning we were dropped off at the trail at Big Cypress Preserve. We hit the trail dry at first and then almost endless swamp. I spent 4 days and 3 nights crossing the 30 plus miles of Everglades. I've never been so exhausted hiking. The water was generally knee deep, but at times waist deep. You camp on tiny island barely out of the water. The ground seeps water and nothing is dry. Saturday night heavy rain and winds hit early. I sheltered in my tent for 14 hours without getting out. I packed up and walked in the rain Sunday. Monday morning I packed up and hiked out to Alligator Alley Interstate 75. I called a friend who lives about an hour away for some relief from the conditions. The mosquitoes are demonic. I'm pretty busted up and need to get my skin dry for a while. Lots of bruises and abrasions. We went out for Italian food and I loved it. I needed to replenish with real food and not just what I was carrying. I'm at their home now and in a dry bed. Nothing is more valuable than friends.
I'll be back on trail soon. My 55 year old body gave what was needed to cross over 30 miles of swamp. Now I'm relaxing and resting it a bit.




I think I'll scratch that hike off my bucket list.  LOL  It sounds like you're lucky that nothing ate you down there.  The Darien Gap sounds like more fun than your hike.  Did you see any huge snakes or gaters?  Were you carrying any type of defense for them, and what would that be when you're waist-deep in muck?


Do you carry a SPOT GPS tracker & emergency rescue type device, just in case?  I'd think hiking the Everglades would be the perfect use for one. 


Oh, what did your hiking companion from Arizona do?  Will you continue the hike with him? It doesn't seem like an endeavor that anyone would want to do solo.  "Misery loves company" & "Safety in numbers", etc. 


Your AT hike was really impressive, but seemed more "normal" to me.  We lived near the AT for over 20 years, so that type of terrain is much more familiar and comfortable to me.  I'm intrigued by swamps & the scary critters that dwell in them.  I'd like to explore them by boat, but it never occurred to me that anyone would consider hiking through them.  Your description of it sounds miserable, but there's obviously something that attracted you to do it.  You're great at storytelling, can you describe the positive part of hiking in the swamps that attracted you to go there, and to continue your hike?


Be safe,

farmecologist

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #7449 on: January 09, 2024, 11:09:33 AM »
Florida Trail update. Tuesday the 2nd I worked a full shift. I drove home and shortly after got on the road for the 600 mile drive to the Florida home. Got there Wednesday morning slept, did yard work, unpacked the truck of things moved from Louisiana. Thursday morning I rode my bicycle to Enterprise to rent a car. I had picked cheapest one way to Miami. They gave me a BMW SUV. That car is incredible. Dropped off the bicycle and loaded my backpack. I drove down to Miami International to turn in the car and get picked up by a shuttle along with another hiker flying in from Arizona. We camped that night at a campground in the Everglades. Friday morning we were dropped off at the trail at Big Cypress Preserve. We hit the trail dry at first and then almost endless swamp. I spent 4 days and 3 nights crossing the 30 plus miles of Everglades. I've never been so exhausted hiking. The water was generally knee deep, but at times waist deep. You camp on tiny island barely out of the water. The ground seeps water and nothing is dry. Saturday night heavy rain and winds hit early. I sheltered in my tent for 14 hours without getting out. I packed up and walked in the rain Sunday. Monday morning I packed up and hiked out to Alligator Alley Interstate 75. I called a friend who lives about an hour away for some relief from the conditions. The mosquitoes are demonic. I'm pretty busted up and need to get my skin dry for a while. Lots of bruises and abrasions. We went out for Italian food and I loved it. I needed to replenish with real food and not just what I was carrying. I'm at their home now and in a dry bed. Nothing is more valuable than friends.
I'll be back on trail soon. My 55 year old body gave what was needed to cross over 30 miles of swamp. Now I'm relaxing and resting it a bit.




I think I'll scratch that hike off my bucket list.  LOL  It sounds like you're lucky that nothing ate you down there.  The Darien Gap sounds like more fun than your hike.  Did you see any huge snakes or gaters?  Were you carrying any type of defense for them, and what would that be when you're waist-deep in muck?


Do you carry a SPOT GPS tracker & emergency rescue type device, just in case?  I'd think hiking the Everglades would be the perfect use for one. 


Oh, what did your hiking companion from Arizona do?  Will you continue the hike with him? It doesn't seem like an endeavor that anyone would want to do solo.  "Misery loves company" & "Safety in numbers", etc. 


Your AT hike was really impressive, but seemed more "normal" to me.  We lived near the AT for over 20 years, so that type of terrain is much more familiar and comfortable to me.  I'm intrigued by swamps & the scary critters that dwell in them.  I'd like to explore them by boat, but it never occurred to me that anyone would consider hiking through them.  Your description of it sounds miserable, but there's obviously something that attracted you to do it.  You're great at storytelling, can you describe the positive part of hiking in the swamps that attracted you to go there, and to continue your hike?


Be safe,


Yikes, @Bateaux, sounds...fun.

I had a similar, but not nearly as miserable, experience in the BWCA a few years ago.  Storm came through the area and all portages were flooded and turned into running streams!  Leeches on legs after walking thru the flooded portages, etc... However, at least we had canoes...lol.   So not nearly as bad as what you encountered.




 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!