Author Topic: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!  (Read 584320 times)

rmorris50

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3900 on: September 04, 2020, 12:27:13 PM »
Itís interesting, and natural that we all focus on the accumulation of wealth and how the markets are doing, but Iím finding that was actually the ďeasierĒ part. Work hard, invest as much as possible, going long on the market in low fee funds, and stay out of debt except for a mortgage.

Iím finding planning out the decumulation phase much more complicated. Planning out when to start taking money from which accounts, when to start the pension, when to take social security, all while minimizing tax impacts, guessing how long Iíll live, and oh how to get health care when I and hubby retire early!

For investments I plan to do a ďbarbell strategyĒ. One to two years living expenses in cash, the rest in the markets, and figure out the best strategy to replenish the cash as time goes by. So I try to just ignore these market swings. I feel Iíll always be long on the market.


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If you havenít read it already, Early Retirement Now goes into painful detail regarding withdrawal strategies. Worth the read.
Thanks, Iíll check it out. My issue is too much tax deferred accounts, between IRAs, pension, deferred comp and Social security. Chances are that is way more than enough already for retirement, so I need to figure out the optimal way to fund the early years of RE.


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rmorris50

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3901 on: September 04, 2020, 12:38:50 PM »
Itís interesting, and natural that we all focus on the accumulation of wealth and how the markets are doing, but Iím finding that was actually the ďeasierĒ part. Work hard, invest as much as possible, going long on the market in low fee funds, and stay out of debt except for a mortgage.

Iím finding planning out the decumulation phase much more complicated. Planning out when to start taking money from which accounts, when to start the pension, when to take social security, all while minimizing tax impacts, guessing how long Iíll live, and oh how to get health care when I and hubby retire early!

For investments I plan to do a ďbarbell strategyĒ. One to two years living expenses in cash, the rest in the markets, and figure out the best strategy to replenish the cash as time goes by. So I try to just ignore these market swings. I feel Iíll always be long on the market.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you havenít read it already, Early Retirement Now goes into painful detail regarding withdrawal strategies. Worth the read.
Whoís the author? An online search results in a lot of books on the topic but none with that exact name.


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Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3902 on: September 04, 2020, 12:53:36 PM »
Itís interesting, and natural that we all focus on the accumulation of wealth and how the markets are doing, but Iím finding that was actually the ďeasierĒ part. Work hard, invest as much as possible, going long on the market in low fee funds, and stay out of debt except for a mortgage.

Iím finding planning out the decumulation phase much more complicated. Planning out when to start taking money from which accounts, when to start the pension, when to take social security, all while minimizing tax impacts, guessing how long Iíll live, and oh how to get health care when I and hubby retire early!

For investments I plan to do a ďbarbell strategyĒ. One to two years living expenses in cash, the rest in the markets, and figure out the best strategy to replenish the cash as time goes by. So I try to just ignore these market swings. I feel Iíll always be long on the market.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you havenít read it already, Early Retirement Now goes into painful detail regarding withdrawal strategies. Worth the read.
Whoís the author? An online search results in a lot of books on the topic but none with that exact name.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

https://earlyretirementnow.com/

Safe Withdrawal Rate series. Or just dig around.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3903 on: September 04, 2020, 02:03:22 PM »
And just like that.....I crossed the 3 mil mark.  Doing my spread sheet this morning, hit $3,001,988.86 in investments.  I think I'll celebrate by buying snow tires for the wife's car.  (and yah.....that's my big plan for the weekend).  The old snows were purchased used on craigslist on wheels for $200.  Got 3 seasons out of them, then threw the wheels on our 11 year old Fusion my younger son's driving.  3 tires broke belts, so are done.  I have a shed full of wheels/tires, so when this stuff happens, it's simply a choice of what do I want to put on the car for the time being.

Yah, I am a cheap bastard.

You jinxed us!  I woke up this morning and checked my spread sheet. I was at $3,005,000.  Then I foolishly decided to look at the market.  I got to enjoy being over 3 million for about 5 seconds.  Oh well, I guess I am going to back to work this morning.

Could be!    Seems every new step I hit....as soon as I say something, the market makes a significant drop.

We celebrated anyways.  DW and I both work from home.  I went out and got us deli sandwiches for lunch.

Managed to remain above 2.5 liquid net worth.  We'll see what today brings.  I'm mentally prepared and our assets are arranged for a 20 percent drop.   Time will tell.


Think its fair to say most here were expecting a correction or bubble to bust or leak and for a lot of reasons the market was do for a sell off. Call me optimistic but I still believe by the end of the year we end up higher than we were but might get another buying opportunity along the way after some pain first.

Sticking to current positions and will buy if opportunities present themselves.  The overall trend has always been up.


Whipsaw today , Dow even went Green for a bit early afternoon but cut its losses in half so not as bad as I was expecting going into a 3 day weekend. Seems like just profit taking but we will see.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3904 on: September 05, 2020, 06:09:15 AM »
And just like that.....I crossed the 3 mil mark.  Doing my spread sheet this morning, hit $3,001,988.86 in investments.  I think I'll celebrate by buying snow tires for the wife's car.  (and yah.....that's my big plan for the weekend).  The old snows were purchased used on craigslist on wheels for $200.  Got 3 seasons out of them, then threw the wheels on our 11 year old Fusion my younger son's driving.  3 tires broke belts, so are done.  I have a shed full of wheels/tires, so when this stuff happens, it's simply a choice of what do I want to put on the car for the time being.

Yah, I am a cheap bastard.

You jinxed us!  I woke up this morning and checked my spread sheet. I was at $3,005,000.  Then I foolishly decided to look at the market.  I got to enjoy being over 3 million for about 5 seconds.  Oh well, I guess I am going to back to work this morning.

Could be!    Seems every new step I hit....as soon as I say something, the market makes a significant drop.

We celebrated anyways.  DW and I both work from home.  I went out and got us deli sandwiches for lunch.

Managed to remain above 2.5 liquid net worth.  We'll see what today brings.  I'm mentally prepared and our assets are arranged for a 20 percent drop.   Time will tell.


Think its fair to say most here were expecting a correction or bubble to bust or leak and for a lot of reasons the market was do for a sell off. Call me optimistic but I still believe by the end of the year we end up higher than we were but might get another buying opportunity along the way after some pain first.

Sticking to current positions and will buy if opportunities present themselves.  The overall trend has always been up.


Whipsaw today , Dow even went Green for a bit early afternoon but cut its losses in half so not as bad as I was expecting going into a 3 day weekend. Seems like just profit taking but we will see.

Pretty much a non-event thus far.  Lost about 30K of recent gains.  Screw it .  Just letting it ride for now.  I'm not even buying much right now.  Hopefully we see at least 10 percent drop in coming months for a buying opportunity.  We've got cooler weather coming and I'm planning some epic outdoor stuff.  In a couple of weeks I'm going on a 200 mile off-road bikepacking trip in Arkansas.  In a month I'm hiking the Appalachian Trail for two weeks.  Next week we're at the Florida house for some beach fun, kayaking and maybe fishing.  Shits coming along nicely.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3905 on: September 06, 2020, 04:34:52 AM »
And just like that.....I crossed the 3 mil mark.  Doing my spread sheet this morning, hit $3,001,988.86 in investments.  I think I'll celebrate by buying snow tires for the wife's car.  (and yah.....that's my big plan for the weekend).  The old snows were purchased used on craigslist on wheels for $200.  Got 3 seasons out of them, then threw the wheels on our 11 year old Fusion my younger son's driving.  3 tires broke belts, so are done.  I have a shed full of wheels/tires, so when this stuff happens, it's simply a choice of what do I want to put on the car for the time being.

Yah, I am a cheap bastard.

You jinxed us!  I woke up this morning and checked my spread sheet. I was at $3,005,000.  Then I foolishly decided to look at the market.  I got to enjoy being over 3 million for about 5 seconds.  Oh well, I guess I am going to back to work this morning.

Could be!    Seems every new step I hit....as soon as I say something, the market makes a significant drop.

We celebrated anyways.  DW and I both work from home.  I went out and got us deli sandwiches for lunch.

Managed to remain above 2.5 liquid net worth.  We'll see what today brings.  I'm mentally prepared and our assets are arranged for a 20 percent drop.   Time will tell.


Think its fair to say most here were expecting a correction or bubble to bust or leak and for a lot of reasons the market was do for a sell off. Call me optimistic but I still believe by the end of the year we end up higher than we were but might get another buying opportunity along the way after some pain first.

Sticking to current positions and will buy if opportunities present themselves.  The overall trend has always been up.


Whipsaw today , Dow even went Green for a bit early afternoon but cut its losses in half so not as bad as I was expecting going into a 3 day weekend. Seems like just profit taking but we will see.

Pretty much a non-event thus far.  Lost about 30K of recent gains.  Screw it .  Just letting it ride for now.  I'm not even buying much right now.  Hopefully we see at least 10 percent drop in coming months for a buying opportunity.  We've got cooler weather coming and I'm planning some epic outdoor stuff.  In a couple of weeks I'm going on a 200 mile off-road bikepacking trip in Arkansas.  In a month I'm hiking the Appalachian Trail for two weeks.  Next week we're at the Florida house for some beach fun, kayaking and maybe fishing.  Shits coming along nicely.


Agree! Sounds like you have an exciting fall planned. By us its coming in sooner than usual. September at least it usually a good month yet but we've dropped 20 degrees over the last week and the forecast is all low 60s and a lot of rain in through the next week. Cant complain though despite the Pandemic its been a great summer and we to have a busy fall.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3906 on: September 09, 2020, 06:12:43 AM »
Where is Derp?  I'm sure he's still rich as hell.  Maybe he sold before the big drop?  Last few days have been brutal to tech.  I should have sold my Apple.  Every thing else just rides.

Car Jack

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3907 on: September 09, 2020, 07:19:44 AM »
Sold ESPP.  The cash settled and I moved some to Ally, paid some bills and then looked at my checking account.  It sat at 11849.  So like any OCD person, I moved $849 to TDAmeritrade and put in a buy order for 3 share of VTI yesterday.  After that bought, I had almost enough for another share, and said "what the heck" and put in another buy order with a limit of what I had left.  At the end of the day, it did buy.  Buying opportunities and all.  Saved me the transfer of extra cash back to my checking account.


tooqk4u22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3908 on: September 09, 2020, 08:15:16 AM »
Where is Derp?  I'm sure he's still rich as hell.  Maybe he sold before the big drop?  Last few days have been brutal to tech.  I should have sold my Apple.  Every thing else just rides.


Ummm, Maybe......but it only took it back to like month ago values - and and all the hot ones are still way way up for the year - TSLA up 270% YTD, yeah he still rich.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3909 on: September 09, 2020, 08:49:01 AM »
Where is Derp?  I'm sure he's still rich as hell.  Maybe he sold before the big drop?  Last few days have been brutal to tech.  I should have sold my Apple.  Every thing else just rides.


Ummm, Maybe......but it only took it back to like month ago values - and and all the hot ones are still way way up for the year - TSLA up 270% YTD, yeah he still rich.

Exactly.  Hell, he may have already retired.  I'm down over 70K but that is all gains from the crazy rise as well.  I feel we're going lower in coming months.  Doesn't matter much now since I'm probably working until 2023. 

soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3910 on: September 09, 2020, 10:31:29 AM »
Where is Derp?  I'm sure he's still rich as hell.  Maybe he sold before the big drop?  Last few days have been brutal to tech.  I should have sold my Apple.  Every thing else just rides.


Ummm, Maybe......but it only took it back to like month ago values - and and all the hot ones are still way way up for the year - TSLA up 270% YTD, yeah he still rich.

Exactly.  Hell, he may have already retired.  I'm down over 70K but that is all gains from the crazy rise as well.  I feel we're going lower in coming months.  Doesn't matter much now since I'm probably working until 2023.


Yea who knows with this market. In my fun account I just bought some spec stocks yesterday like COTY, NOK, and RADA but thats pretty much it . Not doing anything unless  we get a  25% ish  correction then I will buy some VTI but were looking to get a bounce back today be it a Dead Cat bounce or not who knows.

As far as Derp goes I thought in his last post be it this site or another he said "This will be my last post".......


Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3911 on: September 09, 2020, 04:25:44 PM »
Where is Derp?  I'm sure he's still rich as hell.  Maybe he sold before the big drop?  Last few days have been brutal to tech.  I should have sold my Apple.  Every thing else just rides.


Ummm, Maybe......but it only took it back to like month ago values - and and all the hot ones are still way way up for the year - TSLA up 270% YTD, yeah he still rich.

Exactly.  Hell, he may have already retired.  I'm down over 70K but that is all gains from the crazy rise as well.  I feel we're going lower in coming months.  Doesn't matter much now since I'm probably working until 2023.


Yea who knows with this market. In my fun account I just bought some spec stocks yesterday like COTY, NOK, and RADA but thats pretty much it . Not doing anything unless  we get a  25% ish  correction then I will buy some VTI but were looking to get a bounce back today be it a Dead Cat bounce or not who knows.

As far as Derp goes I thought in his last post be it this site or another he said "This will be my last post".......

Wish him well.  What an incredibly fast ride up.  He may not see another comma, but I'd bet another digit isn't all that far out.

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3912 on: September 14, 2020, 02:09:47 PM »
Woohoo - finally, on the path to retiring. I've managed to extricate myself from the startup where I've been working for the past year. I'm going to be part time until the end of the year and will quit then. I have finally persuaded the team that they will be able to get along just fine without me - whew! Meanwhile, invested net worth is now up to 5.2M, gulp!

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3913 on: September 14, 2020, 02:57:15 PM »
Woohoo - finally, on the path to retiring. I've managed to extricate myself from the startup where I've been working for the past year. I'm going to be part time until the end of the year and will quit then. I have finally persuaded the team that they will be able to get along just fine without me - whew! Meanwhile, invested net worth is now up to 5.2M, gulp!

Congratulations! Nicely done. With $5.2 M I suppose youíll be able to skip dumpster diving.

Any specific plans?

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3914 on: September 14, 2020, 03:51:36 PM »

Congratulations! Nicely done. With $5.2 M I suppose youíll be able to skip dumpster diving.

Any specific plans?

Short term, one of my big tasks will be to oversee some major home renovations. In particular, completely fix our basement which is where my lair will be located. Goal is to get back into electronics hacking - an enjoyable hobby that I have neglected in recent years. Will need to acquire an oscilloscope, waveform generators, power supplies etc. Also plan to dabble in robotics and 3D printing. Start a modular model railroad club in my town.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3915 on: September 14, 2020, 04:23:35 PM »

Congratulations! Nicely done. With $5.2 M I suppose youíll be able to skip dumpster diving.

Any specific plans?

Short term, one of my big tasks will be to oversee some major home renovations. In particular, completely fix our basement which is where my lair will be located. Goal is to get back into electronics hacking - an enjoyable hobby that I have neglected in recent years. Will need to acquire an oscilloscope, waveform generators, power supplies etc. Also plan to dabble in robotics and 3D printing. Start a modular model railroad club in my town.


Sounds awesome! Congrats!!

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3916 on: September 14, 2020, 09:23:43 PM »
Fantastic...:)

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3917 on: September 15, 2020, 02:35:48 AM »
Thanks

Its hard to express what a positive impact this forum has had upon me. I discovered MMM just barely a year and a half ago. At that time:
  • My finances were messy being scattered among multiple accounts.
  • I had no idea what my overall asset allocation was or what it even should be.
  • I had no idea that there was even a concept called "SWR"
  • The work environment was progressively worsening at the megacorp where I worked at the time.
  • I had no idea that I did not absolutely have to work until age 65 :-)

Thanks to suggestions from here, I read Living Off Your Money by Michael McClung - what a revelation! I spent much of 2019 cleaning up my finances and getting to the asset allocation I wanted. Quit megacorp and joined a startup. And now finally, I'm on the path to full retirement .

I offer my thanks to perceptive and supportive comments from @Exflyboy @soccerluvof4  @lhamo @pecunia and @Dicey

couponvan

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3918 on: September 15, 2020, 06:16:11 AM »
I just ordered the book you recommended. Canít wait until itís available for me to read.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3919 on: September 15, 2020, 10:30:02 AM »
Thanks

Its hard to express what a positive impact this forum has had upon me. I discovered MMM just barely a year and a half ago. At that time:
  • My finances were messy being scattered among multiple accounts.
  • I had no idea what my overall asset allocation was or what it even should be.
  • I had no idea that there was even a concept called "SWR"
  • The work environment was progressively worsening at the megacorp where I worked at the time.
  • I had no idea that I did not absolutely have to work until age 65 :-)

Thanks to suggestions from here, I read Living Off Your Money by Michael McClung - what a revelation! I spent much of 2019 cleaning up my finances and getting to the asset allocation I wanted. Quit megacorp and joined a startup. And now finally, I'm on the path to full retirement .

I offer my thanks to perceptive and supportive comments from @Exflyboy @soccerluvof4  @lhamo @pecunia and @Dicey

Awesome.  Get out and enjoy that big pile of stash.  This thread is how I keep my sanity at times.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3920 on: September 16, 2020, 08:11:07 AM »
In I guess a case of ďthe Rich get, richer,Ē. My Amex Marriott card just offered me a spend $1000 before 10/30 get a $100 statement credit for my card ďanniversaryĒ.  Itís just another in the series of extra bonuses they have sent out to me since March so it completely has covered its fee and then some this year.  This one really stuck me because of the rather large ďrewardĒ for a small spend. 

soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3921 on: September 18, 2020, 04:15:10 AM »
Alot of green chutes reported the last couple days but the rise in Covid, Politics and run up in Tech is leading to profit taking. Economy is recovering though faster than they though but can it continue? Guess thats the question. If the keep propping it up I guess anything is possible. Something better get resolved though with stimulus for people or alot of people going to sadly be hurting.

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3922 on: September 18, 2020, 07:38:10 AM »
Alot of green chutes reported the last couple days but the rise in Covid, Politics and run up in Tech is leading to profit taking. Economy is recovering though faster than they though but can it continue? Guess thats the question. If the keep propping it up I guess anything is possible. Something better get resolved though with stimulus for people or alot of people going to sadly be hurting.

I think you are a wise man, but that could just be that I agree with you.  I don't think pumping money into the economy generates "real" wealth.  Getting money into the pockets of the average Joe and Jane will generate demand for real goods and services.  I mean tangible things.  People have to work and make those tangible goods.  This generates the need to hire people to make those goods.  The same goes for services. 

You guys give better information than all those financial news reporters.

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3923 on: September 18, 2020, 11:35:16 AM »
Alot of green chutes reported the last couple days but the rise in Covid, Politics and run up in Tech is leading to profit taking. Economy is recovering though faster than they though but can it continue? Guess thats the question. If the keep propping it up I guess anything is possible. Something better get resolved though with stimulus for people or alot of people going to sadly be hurting.

I think you are a wise man, but that could just be that I agree with you.  I don't think pumping money into the economy generates "real" wealth.  Getting money into the pockets of the average Joe and Jane will generate demand for real goods and services.  I mean tangible things.  People have to work and make those tangible goods.  This generates the need to hire people to make those goods.  The same goes for services. 

You guys give better information than all those financial news reporters.

Yes. When you give money to people, they buy stuffs, money goes to companies, and stops. It does not do the circulation function that money is supposed to do.

If people work, companies pay people money, people buy stuffs, company receive money, pay people. In this way, money circulates as it is supposed to do.

rmorris50

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3924 on: September 18, 2020, 11:43:09 AM »
Alot of green chutes reported the last couple days but the rise in Covid, Politics and run up in Tech is leading to profit taking. Economy is recovering though faster than they though but can it continue? Guess thats the question. If the keep propping it up I guess anything is possible. Something better get resolved though with stimulus for people or alot of people going to sadly be hurting.

I think you are a wise man, but that could just be that I agree with you.  I don't think pumping money into the economy generates "real" wealth.  Getting money into the pockets of the average Joe and Jane will generate demand for real goods and services.  I mean tangible things.  People have to work and make those tangible goods.  This generates the need to hire people to make those goods.  The same goes for services. 

You guys give better information than all those financial news reporters.

Yes. When you give money to people, they buy stuffs, money goes to companies, and stops. It does not do the circulation function that money is supposed to do.

If people work, companies pay people money, people buy stuffs, company receive money, pay people. In this way, money circulates as it is supposed to do.
Money is like manure, it works better if you spread it around (or something like that).


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EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3925 on: September 18, 2020, 12:55:52 PM »
Alot of green chutes reported the last couple days but the rise in Covid, Politics and run up in Tech is leading to profit taking. Economy is recovering though faster than they though but can it continue? Guess thats the question. If the keep propping it up I guess anything is possible. Something better get resolved though with stimulus for people or alot of people going to sadly be hurting.

I think you are a wise man, but that could just be that I agree with you.  I don't think pumping money into the economy generates "real" wealth.  Getting money into the pockets of the average Joe and Jane will generate demand for real goods and services.  I mean tangible things.  People have to work and make those tangible goods.  This generates the need to hire people to make those goods.  The same goes for services. 

You guys give better information than all those financial news reporters.

Yes. When you give money to people, they buy stuffs, money goes to companies, and stops. It does not do the circulation function that money is supposed to do.

If people work, companies pay people money, people buy stuffs, company receive money, pay people. In this way, money circulates as it is supposed to do.
Money is like manure, it works better if you spread it around (or something like that).

This year has been a catastrophe in terms of 'spreading it around' though.  Folks like Bezos and Musk are sucking up billions per day, while 'regular folks' manage to make rent payments.  The rich don't have anything left to soak up all the money sloshing around in their accounts, and the poor are drying out and starting to feel the drought.  At some point, the government will have to rely on the economy actually paying for the country to stay solvent, instead of borrowing and spending trillions with no end in sight. 

Much Fishing to Do

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3926 on: September 18, 2020, 02:29:56 PM »
Alot of green chutes reported the last couple days but the rise in Covid, Politics and run up in Tech is leading to profit taking. Economy is recovering though faster than they though but can it continue? Guess thats the question. If the keep propping it up I guess anything is possible. Something better get resolved though with stimulus for people or alot of people going to sadly be hurting.

I think you are a wise man, but that could just be that I agree with you.  I don't think pumping money into the economy generates "real" wealth.  Getting money into the pockets of the average Joe and Jane will generate demand for real goods and services.  I mean tangible things.  People have to work and make those tangible goods.  This generates the need to hire people to make those goods.  The same goes for services. 

You guys give better information than all those financial news reporters.

Yes. When you give money to people, they buy stuffs, money goes to companies, and stops. It does not do the circulation function that money is supposed to do.

If people work, companies pay people money, people buy stuffs, company receive money, pay people. In this way, money circulates as it is supposed to do.
Money is like manure, it works better if you spread it around (or something like that).

This year has been a catastrophe in terms of 'spreading it around' though.  Folks like Bezos and Musk are sucking up billions per day, while 'regular folks' manage to make rent payments.  The rich don't have anything left to soak up all the money sloshing around in their accounts, and the poor are drying out and starting to feel the drought.  At some point, the government will have to rely on the economy actually paying for the country to stay solvent, instead of borrowing and spending trillions with no end in sight.

I'm all for spreading it around (I for sure am for higher top tax brackets).  But lets not kid ourselves about what spreading it around could do.  The median household income in 2018 was $62k.  The mean household income was $72k.  So on average spreading it all around COMPLETELY means the average family makes $72k instead of $62k.  I guess if you are a family making $20k right now thats a pretty good reason to hate inequity, but if you're around the median its really not affecting you that much.

Of course the extreme outliers are really sucking up the wealth.  For example taking Bill Gates and Warren Buffet's wealth and letting the government use it instead of them would obviously lead to more efficient use and everyone being better off.... ;-)

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3927 on: September 18, 2020, 04:35:43 PM »

This year has been a catastrophe in terms of 'spreading it around' though.  Folks like Bezos and Musk are sucking up billions per day, while 'regular folks' manage to make rent payments.  The rich don't have anything left to soak up all the money sloshing around in their accounts, and the poor are drying out and starting to feel the drought.  At some point, the government will have to rely on the economy actually paying for the country to stay solvent, instead of borrowing and spending trillions with no end in sight.

OK. Iíll bite. Why does the economy have to pay at all? Our national debt to GDP ratio is somewhere north of 107%.  Compare that to Japan at above 235%. 

Now of course there will be all sorts of taxes coming that affect those of healthy but less than stratospheric means. Like those of us assembled here. Iím sure itíll be for the ďGreater Good.Ē  Oh, and itíll be for The Children, too.

Never forget The Children.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 06:17:45 AM by Buffaloski Boris »

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3928 on: September 18, 2020, 11:34:48 PM »
Of course the extreme outliers are really sucking up the wealth.  For example taking Bill Gates and Warren Buffet's wealth and letting the government use it instead of them would obviously lead to more efficient use and everyone being better off.... ;-)

Oh, lots of questions with this one.  Why do you think that the government would spend it more efficiently than Gates or Buffett?  I mean, there are rich people out there that we could tax a few billion off of and build roads and bridges and schools and such.  But Gates and Buffett have already pledged to turn basically all their money over to the Gates Foundation, and the Gates Foundation is using that money to fund vaccines, healthcare, and other initiatives in new and innovative ways.  Isn't that a good thing?

deborah

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3929 on: September 19, 2020, 12:37:21 AM »
Of course the extreme outliers are really sucking up the wealth.  For example taking Bill Gates and Warren Buffet's wealth and letting the government use it instead of them would obviously lead to more efficient use and everyone being better off.... ;-)

Oh, lots of questions with this one.  Why do you think that the government would spend it more efficiently than Gates or Buffett?  I mean, there are rich people out there that we could tax a few billion off of and build roads and bridges and schools and such.  But Gates and Buffett have already pledged to turn basically all their money over to the Gates Foundation, and the Gates Foundation is using that money to fund vaccines, healthcare, and other initiatives in new and innovative ways.  Isn't that a good thing?
Actually no - see https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/sep/08/how-philanthropy-benefits-the-super-rich

Much Fishing to Do

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3930 on: September 19, 2020, 06:03:06 AM »
Of course the extreme outliers are really sucking up the wealth.  For example taking Bill Gates and Warren Buffet's wealth and letting the government use it instead of them would obviously lead to more efficient use and everyone being better off.... ;-)

Oh, lots of questions with this one.  Why do you think that the government would spend it more efficiently than Gates or Buffett?  I mean, there are rich people out there that we could tax a few billion off of and build roads and bridges and schools and such.  But Gates and Buffett have already pledged to turn basically all their money over to the Gates Foundation, and the Gates Foundation is using that money to fund vaccines, healthcare, and other initiatives in new and innovative ways.  Isn't that a good thing?

I apologize, my winky face didn't appropriately convey the sarcasm that was intended, I've got to learn how to do that.....

AdrianC

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3931 on: September 19, 2020, 06:28:59 AM »
Of course the extreme outliers are really sucking up the wealth.  For example taking Bill Gates and Warren Buffet's wealth and letting the government use it instead of them would obviously lead to more efficient use and everyone being better off.... ;-)

Oh, lots of questions with this one.  Why do you think that the government would spend it more efficiently than Gates or Buffett?  I mean, there are rich people out there that we could tax a few billion off of and build roads and bridges and schools and such.  But Gates and Buffett have already pledged to turn basically all their money over to the Gates Foundation, and the Gates Foundation is using that money to fund vaccines, healthcare, and other initiatives in new and innovative ways.  Isn't that a good thing?

I apologize, my winky face didn't appropriately convey the sarcasm that was intended, I've got to learn how to do that.....

I got it.

Clearly there's a role for government, the "market" can't do everything. I'm reading Simon Winchester's "The Men Who United the States". Just read about the Erie canal construction. Those kind of projects, which can create enormous good for the country, can often only be financed by government.

Anyway, I just learned from the Facebooks that Bill Gates worked with China to create the Coronavirus, so he could make millions by forcing us all to take the vaccine that we don't want, which may have a tracking microchip in it. You can't fix stupid.

LWYRUP

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3932 on: September 19, 2020, 07:16:29 AM »

My view of the canal project though was that it was kind of a waste of money in the end as shortly after they were built the railroads came along and crushed them.  I know the C&O canal ended up being a giant exercise in pointlessness, though we have a good long distance bike path as a result.  Did the Erie canal have a larger impact?

Sorry for random tangent!

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3933 on: September 19, 2020, 10:00:03 AM »

My view of the canal project though was that it was kind of a waste of money in the end as shortly after they were built the railroads came along and crushed them.  I know the C&O canal ended up being a giant exercise in pointlessness, though we have a good long distance bike path as a result.  Did the Erie canal have a larger impact?

Sorry for random tangent!

Hope to hit that tow path with my bike in coming years.  It as well as rail trails have had useful second lives.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2020, 05:02:22 PM by Bateaux »

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3934 on: September 20, 2020, 08:19:17 AM »
I have been listening to some right wing radio since retiring.  I notice they "cherry pick" their examples.  In an example given above, an example was "cherry picked."  The example given was government spending on canal building.  It was given as a bad example of government spending.  This is going to happen.  The technological change of the railroads was not anticipated.  Then government is composed of people.  Whether people are in private enterprise or public service, mistakes are going to happen.

The big difference in whether the money is spent by private endeavors or public is who controls the money and to what end.

Public expenditures are for the public good.  If the money is spent wisely, they are an investment in the future.

Private expenditures are for the private good.  The sole reason for the firm is to make money.  The argument can be made that they can only make money by providing a valuable service to the populace.  However, other than market forces, there is no guidance assuring that the private investment of the money is the best thing for the people.

Public expenditures are chosen by the people and / or the people's representatives.  The choice of what the money is to be spent on is made by them.  Their needs are directly satisfied in a manner chosen by them.  Without profit being drawn from the top, the public needs may be better satisfied.  Take the example of toll roads.  A toll road administered by the public is likely to cost less than that road owned  / administered by a private concern.  I've seen the same for electricity and in the past for Cable TV. 

Examples can be "cherry picked" to promote either public or private investment.

I guess AdrianC already said this and was a lot less verbose, but I'm too lazy to erase this one.


Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3935 on: September 20, 2020, 10:56:36 AM »
@pecunia Im glad you closed with the observation that people can cherry pick either private or public investment, although itís been my personal observation that more cherry picking goes on with regard to public investment in the last 20 years. We keep on hearing how various governmental organizations need to spend more on X public good. While very little in the regard to how those expenditures work out in the long term. So if we spend X billion on a specific social good, what are the actual outcomes? What are the metrics? Moreover, if there is a private counterpart, how do they do in comparison?

Let me give an example. Hunger. I think that most of us would agree that having people starving or malnourished in the US is a bad thing. So we can approach that through either private means such as food banks or public means such as SNAP. Which is more efficient? Which is more scalable in a crisis? For each dollar spent, which achieves the end objective better? Thatís of course subjective, but from Iíve seen of the last 6 months, the food banks have done an incredible job.

This also begs the question: so what exactly is the ďpublic goodĒ and who gets to decide? Since when is a bunch of politicians better placed to decide virtue? Letís just look at past examples of the public good where we spent a whole lot of money. If we go back less than 20 years we can see that the public good was fighting a war in the Middle East. I strongly question the idea that the public good is somehow better than the private.

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3936 on: September 20, 2020, 02:16:13 PM »
@pecunia Im glad you closed with the observation that people can cherry pick either private or public investment, although itís been my personal observation that more cherry picking goes on with regard to public investment in the last 20 years. We keep on hearing how various governmental organizations need to spend more on X public good. While very little in the regard to how those expenditures work out in the long term. So if we spend X billion on a specific social good, what are the actual outcomes? What are the metrics? Moreover, if there is a private counterpart, how do they do in comparison?

Let me give an example. Hunger. I think that most of us would agree that having people starving or malnourished in the US is a bad thing. So we can approach that through either private means such as food banks or public means such as SNAP. Which is more efficient? Which is more scalable in a crisis? For each dollar spent, which achieves the end objective better? Thatís of course subjective, but from Iíve seen of the last 6 months, the food banks have done an incredible job.

This also begs the question: so what exactly is the ďpublic goodĒ and who gets to decide? Since when is a bunch of politicians better placed to decide virtue? Letís just look at past examples of the public good where we spent a whole lot of money. If we go back less than 20 years we can see that the public good was fighting a war in the Middle East. I strongly question the idea that the public good is somehow better than the private.

Hmm.. Wars a highly stimulative to the economy.. We first learned this in WW2 where it could be argued that the massive Government spending finally brought us out of the Great Depression.

I suspect our nice clean sanitised wars (held offshore to keep the true horrors somewhat out of sight) are mainly for the benefit of our defense industry when then pay rich people dividends.

Same as healthcare.. The more expensive it is the bigger our dividend checks.. Motivation to make haelthcare cheaper or to not start another war.. Roughly zero!

LetItGrow

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3937 on: September 20, 2020, 05:04:14 PM »
@pecunia Im glad you closed with the observation that people can cherry pick either private or public investment, although itís been my personal observation that more cherry picking goes on with regard to public investment in the last 20 years. We keep on hearing how various governmental organizations need to spend more on X public good. While very little in the regard to how those expenditures work out in the long term. So if we spend X billion on a specific social good, what are the actual outcomes? What are the metrics? Moreover, if there is a private counterpart, how do they do in comparison?

Let me give an example. Hunger. I think that most of us would agree that having people starving or malnourished in the US is a bad thing. So we can approach that through either private means such as food banks or public means such as SNAP. Which is more efficient? Which is more scalable in a crisis? For each dollar spent, which achieves the end objective better? Thatís of course subjective, but from Iíve seen of the last 6 months, the food banks have done an incredible job.

This also begs the question: so what exactly is the ďpublic goodĒ and who gets to decide? Since when is a bunch of politicians better placed to decide virtue? Letís just look at past examples of the public good where we spent a whole lot of money. If we go back less than 20 years we can see that the public good was fighting a war in the Middle East. I strongly question the idea that the public good is somehow better than the private.

Hmm.. Wars a highly stimulative to the economy.. We first learned this in WW2 where it could be argued that the massive Government spending finally brought us out of the Great Depression.

I suspect our nice clean sanitised wars (held offshore to keep the true horrors somewhat out of sight) are mainly for the benefit of our defense industry when then pay rich people dividends.

Same as healthcare.. The more expensive it is the bigger our dividend checks.. Motivation to make haelthcare cheaper or to not start another war.. Roughly zero!

Yeah, thereís a lot of trickledown that we often forget about. Or at least choose to ignore a bit because of our swelling accounts.

AdrianC

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3938 on: September 21, 2020, 02:30:58 PM »
I guess AdrianC already said this and was a lot less verbose, but I'm too lazy to erase this one.
Or correct it's mischaracterizations, apparently.

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3939 on: September 23, 2020, 07:59:28 AM »
My view of the canal project though was that it was kind of a waste of money in the end as shortly after they were built the railroads came along and crushed them.  I know the C&O canal ended up being a giant exercise in pointlessness, though we have a good long distance bike path as a result.  Did the Erie canal have a larger impact?
Railroads took over eventually. The Erie canal was successful for decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_Canal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_Canal#Impact

LWYRUP

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3940 on: September 23, 2020, 08:07:43 AM »
My view of the canal project though was that it was kind of a waste of money in the end as shortly after they were built the railroads came along and crushed them.  I know the C&O canal ended up being a giant exercise in pointlessness, though we have a good long distance bike path as a result.  Did the Erie canal have a larger impact?
Railroads took over eventually. The Erie canal was successful for decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_Canal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_Canal#Impact

Thanks, looks like it had a good 40-50 year run.  In my view if an infrastructure project is well-used for 30 years, it can probably be viewed as a success.  So I guess it's more accurate to say the US went 1-1 on big canal projects. 

Ockhamist

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3941 on: September 23, 2020, 09:25:03 AM »

My view of the canal project though was that it was kind of a waste of money in the end as shortly after they were built the railroads came along and crushed them.  I know the C&O canal ended up being a giant exercise in pointlessness, though we have a good long distance bike path as a result.  Did the Erie canal have a larger impact?

Sorry for random tangent!

Hope to hit that tow path with my bike in coming years.  It as well as rail trails have had useful second lives.

It's a gorgeous trail in many places.   I've done the portions between Buffalo and Newark (which, at the time, was as far east as you could go on that segment) and also portions around Syracuse.   Supposedly you can now bike the full length from Albany to Buffalo, just like the song says.   Also supposedly at Albany you can connect to a trail along the Hudson and ride that all the way to NYC.   

Unfortunately, the tourist materials aren't 100% reliable.  Just this summer tried to ride a different canal path elsewhere in Upstate NY which happens not to exist.   NY Canals Commission put a planned trail out as though it was already there!   So, need to do some HW before trusting them and getting lost in the wilds of Utica, or worse.

Assuming the story checks out, my wife and I are talking about doing the full Buffalo to NYC trek next summer actually with a couple other couples, maybe we'll see you there LOL.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 08:13:49 AM by Ockhamist »

soccerluvof4

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3942 on: September 24, 2020, 03:24:55 AM »
See what today does but the trend has been lower highs and lower lows of late. Been adding on scale to my 1% FUN account for now but if this continues time to start scaling and adding extra cash into VTI.  Think if we go down (which my gut tells me were on are way) we will probably get down to the March lows again and hang around until the election, stimulus and the pandemic gets straightened out this time. Looking at it as an opportunity. But would prefer not to go down as much! :-)

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3943 on: September 24, 2020, 07:53:25 AM »
See what today does but the trend has been lower highs and lower lows of late. Been adding on scale to my 1% FUN account for now but if this continues time to start scaling and adding extra cash into VTI.  Think if we go down (which my gut tells me were on are way) we will probably get down to the March lows again and hang around until the election, stimulus and the pandemic gets straightened out this time. Looking at it as an opportunity. But would prefer not to go down as much! :-)

I think election uncertainty will do a number on the market.  March lowes are possible, but I doubt they'd stay that low very long.  People want to be in the market.

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3944 on: September 25, 2020, 03:24:35 AM »
See what today does but the trend has been lower highs and lower lows of late. Been adding on scale to my 1% FUN account for now but if this continues time to start scaling and adding extra cash into VTI.  Think if we go down (which my gut tells me were on are way) we will probably get down to the March lows again and hang around until the election, stimulus and the pandemic gets straightened out this time. Looking at it as an opportunity. But would prefer not to go down as much! :-)

I think election uncertainty will do a number on the market.  March lowes are possible, but I doubt they'd stay that low very long.  People want to be in the market.


I think most pundits would agree with you. Market really seems to want in the short term that stimulus package approved and longer term a Vaccine.  Since Powel last spoke its dropped. Needs to be sector rotation and its trying but always ends up getting back to what the tech stocks are going to do. But as you I dont see any reason for it with all the liquidity in the market and the green chutes for a major event. Time will only tell......

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3945 on: September 25, 2020, 09:21:53 PM »
I was going through the end-of-month accounting, and it feels so good to have everything organized the way we have it.  We still have a mortgage, but it's our only debt.  We consolidated some other real estate debt into our mortgage last year, and I just finished a no-cost interest rate reduction with our lender, so now we're down to 3%.  We don't plan to pay it off faster than required now, instead shoveling money into taxable accounts.  Our taxable accounts, cash, and rental house could be used to pay off our residence at any time, which feels great.

The past six months of staying at home have been both wonderful and difficult.  On the difficult side, it's a bummer to be going into winter facing more of the same along with kids in school.  We are managing, though, and our expenses are down, which helps supercharge our savings.  We've been fortunate to not miss any income, our renter is solid, and I've been able to use the extra time around the house to get some things done.

I have been seriously thinking of retiring early for several years, and the pandemic couldn't have been better timed to give me a taste of working from home.  It's okay, and someday I'll be ready for more of a part time arrangement from home.  Right now, though, with our income where it is and all the uncertainty out there, I am grateful for full-time work, and even look forward to getting back in the office in hopefully 6 to 9 months.  In the meantime, on with the padding of the stash.

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3946 on: September 26, 2020, 08:32:13 AM »
Like @Taran Wanderer getting organized was one of the best things to come out of joining this forum. At the beginning of 2019 we had multiple 401Ks and IRAs, multiple post-tax brokerage accounts (including several just for company options and RSUs), multiple bank accounts, variable life insurance (I know!). Just computing net worth took half an hour and gathering the data gathering from various sources was tedious to say the least.

I have now consolidated to one post-tax brokerage account and one IRA for my self (wife still has her 401K). It feels really good to see a clean and simple balance sheet that I can update quickly once a week :-)

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3947 on: September 26, 2020, 10:08:59 AM »
I only wish we were that organized.  We still have his and hers checking and saving accounts, an extra saving account, 5 different credit cards between us (which is nice if one gets hacked), and all the flavors of retirement accounts for each of us, plus kids with saving and 529 accounts.  And a 125 plan.  And an investment club.  Honestly, sometimes it feels like a side-job as an accountant to manage all this.

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3948 on: September 27, 2020, 04:54:48 PM »

This year has been a catastrophe in terms of 'spreading it around' though.  Folks like Bezos and Musk are sucking up billions per day, while 'regular folks' manage to make rent payments.  The rich don't have anything left to soak up all the money sloshing around in their accounts, and the poor are drying out and starting to feel the drought.  At some point, the government will have to rely on the economy actually paying for the country to stay solvent, instead of borrowing and spending trillions with no end in sight.

OK. Iíll bite. Why does the economy have to pay at all? Our national debt to GDP ratio is somewhere north of 107%.  Compare that to Japan at above 235%. 
...

I keep hearing this refrain and can't help but wonder, do you want America to follow Japan's Nikkei Index post-1990?  That's 30 years of break even, after a really terrible crash?  Sure, Japan isn't looking as bad as Greece on the surface, but it's a homogenous culture.  On the flip side, there is Norway, similarly homogenous, with surplus for years. 

America cannot continue to borrow as it has indefinitely without seriously knee-capping its options to continue to borrow.  We are far from a stable, homogenous society, in case you haven't noticed lately.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #3949 on: September 27, 2020, 05:48:50 PM »

This year has been a catastrophe in terms of 'spreading it around' though.  Folks like Bezos and Musk are sucking up billions per day, while 'regular folks' manage to make rent payments.  The rich don't have anything left to soak up all the money sloshing around in their accounts, and the poor are drying out and starting to feel the drought.  At some point, the government will have to rely on the economy actually paying for the country to stay solvent, instead of borrowing and spending trillions with no end in sight.

OK. Iíll bite. Why does the economy have to pay at all? Our national debt to GDP ratio is somewhere north of 107%.  Compare that to Japan at above 235%. 
...

I keep hearing this refrain and can't help but wonder, do you want America to follow Japan's Nikkei Index post-1990?  That's 30 years of break even, after a really terrible crash?  Sure, Japan isn't looking as bad as Greece on the surface, but it's a homogenous culture.  On the flip side, there is Norway, similarly homogenous, with surplus for years. 

America cannot continue to borrow as it has indefinitely without seriously knee-capping its options to continue to borrow.  We are far from a stable, homogenous society, in case you haven't noticed lately.

Given that I try to keep my exposure to US equities low, I canít say that it much matters to me what US equity markets do, other than the US markets have a nasty tendency to correlate with other global markets. But I donít think thatís the real concern here. I think itís more of a concern that the US wonít be able to sell its debt at favorable terms and that the US will somehow, in some way suffer some horrible malaise as a result of profligate state spending.

Iíve been hearing this argument my entire adult life and you know what? The malaise hasnít happened yet. The Government has been spending to beat the band for decades now. The national debt hasnít been a problem from the perspective of being able to service the debt. It has been a problem in that the spending has tended to benefit the already ultra-wealthy at the expense of everyone else. Not that surprising when you have a multimillionaire Congress and a never ending  succession of corporatist presidents.

What concerns me though is this logic that says that the national debt is like personal debt. It isnít. Personal debt has to repaid at some point, public debt doesnít. And it never will be. But what ends up happening is that well meaning people in their zeal to try to repay what can never be repaid start coming up will all sorts of not-so-bright ideas to pay it off. Like raising taxes on the ultra-wealthy. Sounds nice! Itíll never happen. Part of the reason the ultra-wealthy are that way is they have the systems and accountants and lawyers and, letís face it, politicians to ensure that they will never pay more than a token amount. What a tax hike for the ultra-wealthy really means is that everyone elseís taxes get jacked up.

And when taxes donít work, then we get into the really destructive ideas like selling off public assets to pay off the debt. And guess who will be buying them at fire sale prices?

The national debt is just one of those nonissues that we can largely ignore. Yeah, there probably is a point where issuing more debt wonít work. Weíre not there. Given that weíre experiencing negligible inflation, weíre nowhere near that ceiling.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 05:50:28 PM by Buffaloski Boris »