Author Topic: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!  (Read 1255748 times)

BeanCounter

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6950 on: July 17, 2023, 03:14:56 PM »
@BeanCounter I often wonder how wealth transfer and attitudes change as it passes down through generations.

I mean I grew up not quite dirt poor but the East End of London after WW2 was not exactly a thriving place. Then at 13 my Dad sat me down and pointed out the ONE CHANCE I had to make it to a better life was to use the free gift of my education.. Somehow at 13 I listened and the very next day started working my ass off! I didn't stop till I gradated HS 2nd in the school by a couple of points and earned a place at one of the top technical universities in the UK.

My Mum and Dad had almost nothing and what they did have they spent in a heartbeat. I knew I couldn't live like that and fast forward almost 50 years and here we are with a NW of $4M.

Now if I had a kid I would imagine that he/she would somehow have a very different attitude because they wouldn't know any different.. Like Dad would magically just have a fast airplane and a giant SUV blah blah. I.e they wouldn't have a clue what it took to get to their charmed existence.

I suspect trying to instill the values of thrift, hard work and saving might be a bit lost on those who wondered if we would get dinner after a hard day of being the very best in every class they could be.
Iím not sure of the answer or why but from my experience those with generational wealth are often more frugal than those who started out poor. Iím generalizing of course.
I think kids just pick up the values of the house to some degree.
I know in our house we do absolutely ZERO recreational shopping. We only go to a store if we need something. And we often buy used. So the thought of going into a store and buying something new, that you donít need, for no other reason other than you just want it really hasnít occurred to my boys yet.
I think they donít want for much because they donít see their parents wanting much.

couponvan

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6951 on: July 17, 2023, 11:26:18 PM »
Iím here for the wedding comment having just been treated like a Princess at our former wedding venue. I LOVE that my parents used ingenuity to score a fabulous wedding venue I can return to over and over. I LOVE that I got my bridesmaidís dresses for $10 each as well as the shoes from Payless shoe source for $9 clearance. I LOVE that the hydrangeas we used for wedding bouquets still produce flowers today. I LOVE that I can still recreate my wedding favor truffles when I want to.

My wedding was $25/person including the wine because my parents swung a janitorial and window deal with a winery that didnít do weddings. I am glad we can celebrate birthdays and anniversaries now. The winery doesnít do weddings any longer and has changed names. I think because we have that ďhistoryĒ with them that is so unusual they just treat us so well and remember us. Give them the wedding/event you want to.

If itís an only child, do what you feel right about. We had 100 people at $25/person paid for by my parents. The rest was on us. We were creative and careful with our spending. We added 25 more people on our own dime-because that was important to us. Our anniversary party cost more than our wedding years later. Another thing I donít regret. It sounds like the Italy wedding is part wedding and part vacation. $16K for a vacation of a lifetime and $30K for a wedding doesnít sound as far fetched. Can you do it for $5K? Maybe locally. If you gave them the choice between a wedding and $50K, would they choose the wedding?

Only you can know what you want to do. At the Beyond level, $50K is belt tightening for a couple months.

tooqk4u22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6952 on: July 18, 2023, 07:34:51 AM »
@BeanCounter I often wonder how wealth transfer and attitudes change as it passes down through generations.

I mean I grew up not quite dirt poor but the East End of London after WW2 was not exactly a thriving place. Then at 13 my Dad sat me down and pointed out the ONE CHANCE I had to make it to a better life was to use the free gift of my education.. Somehow at 13 I listened and the very next day started working my ass off! I didn't stop till I gradated HS 2nd in the school by a couple of points and earned a place at one of the top technical universities in the UK.

My Mum and Dad had almost nothing and what they did have they spent in a heartbeat. I knew I couldn't live like that and fast forward almost 50 years and here we are with a NW of $4M.

Now if I had a kid I would imagine that he/she would somehow have a very different attitude because they wouldn't know any different.. Like Dad would magically just have a fast airplane and a giant SUV blah blah. I.e they wouldn't have a clue what it took to get to their charmed existence.

I suspect trying to instill the values of thrift, hard work and saving might be a bit lost on those who wondered if we would get dinner after a hard day of being the very best in every class they could be.
Iím not sure of the answer or why but from my experience those with generational wealth are often more frugal than those who started out poor. Iím generalizing of course.
I think kids just pick up the values of the house to some degree.
I know in our house we do absolutely ZERO recreational shopping. We only go to a store if we need something. And we often buy used. So the thought of going into a store and buying something new, that you donít need, for no other reason other than you just want it really hasnít occurred to my boys yet.
I think they donít want for much because they donít see their parents wanting much.

The first generation makes, the 2nd generation grew up tight and also makes it bigger/better, and the third generation f#*ks it all up bc they grew up spoiled and are detached from the effort/sacrifice/investment it took.    Not to mention by the third generation there are usually multiple heirs so the pot is divided into smaller pieces.

dividendman

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6953 on: July 18, 2023, 10:19:55 AM »
Iím not sure of the answer or why but from my experience those with generational wealth are often more frugal than those who started out poor. Iím generalizing of course.
I think kids just pick up the values of the house to some degree.
I know in our house we do absolutely ZERO recreational shopping. We only go to a store if we need something. And we often buy used. So the thought of going into a store and buying something new, that you donít need, for no other reason other than you just want it really hasnít occurred to my boys yet.
I think they donít want for much because they donít see their parents wanting much.

I don't know why I found this so funny. Recreational shopping... haha. Really? That people do this is incredible, but I know it happens a lot.

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6954 on: July 18, 2023, 11:10:11 AM »
Iím not sure of the answer or why but from my experience those with generational wealth are often more frugal than those who started out poor. Iím generalizing of course.
I think kids just pick up the values of the house to some degree.
I know in our house we do absolutely ZERO recreational shopping. We only go to a store if we need something. And we often buy used. So the thought of going into a store and buying something new, that you donít need, for no other reason other than you just want it really hasnít occurred to my boys yet.
I think they donít want for much because they donít see their parents wanting much.

I don't know why I found this so funny. Recreational shopping... haha. Really? That people do this is incredible, but I know it happens a lot.

I know I did this the other day. I bought an upgraded underground pipe/power cable tracker while surfing Amazon. Don't need one but will probably come in handy one day but honestly I bought it cus it was cool..:)

$114 delivered.. Oh the shame!...;)

dividendman

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6955 on: July 18, 2023, 12:28:20 PM »
Iím not sure of the answer or why but from my experience those with generational wealth are often more frugal than those who started out poor. Iím generalizing of course.
I think kids just pick up the values of the house to some degree.
I know in our house we do absolutely ZERO recreational shopping. We only go to a store if we need something. And we often buy used. So the thought of going into a store and buying something new, that you donít need, for no other reason other than you just want it really hasnít occurred to my boys yet.
I think they donít want for much because they donít see their parents wanting much.

I don't know why I found this so funny. Recreational shopping... haha. Really? That people do this is incredible, but I know it happens a lot.

I know I did this the other day. I bought an upgraded underground pipe/power cable tracker while surfing Amazon. Don't need one but will probably come in handy one day but honestly I bought it cus it was cool..:)

$114 delivered.. Oh the shame!...;)

Dang... you actually "surf amazon"? i.e. you go to amazon.com even when you're not looking for something specific? Wowzers. I guess I just hate shopping so much I only go to amazon or a shop with a specific purchase in mind.

Car Jack

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6956 on: July 18, 2023, 05:08:47 PM »
If I or DW were recreational shoppers, I think I'd insist she call me Thurston Howell the 3rd and I'd call her Lovey.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6957 on: July 19, 2023, 01:22:10 AM »
I bought a few things this past week.  A trailer hitch for my wife's new car, online purchase hopefully it fits.  A new lighter backpack for me, I'm still trying to get back out hiking the AT.  Two new pairs of hiking poles, cheap ones on Amazon that are actually awesome. Pistol ammo, it was available and cheaper than it's been.
I just paid my lowest credit card bill in years.  It was a period during my 6 weeks hiking the AT.  It seems backpacking is much cheaper than boredom. You have no car and pay the penalty for carrying too much crap with pain to your shoulders. Backpacking is the ultimate Mustachian exercise.

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6958 on: July 19, 2023, 12:02:11 PM »
@Bateaux to a degree. I was surprised at how expensive the dried food was these days plus permits run at about $100 for 6ay trips from memory.

In 3 months though I get "golden age"pass which is a huge discount..:)

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6959 on: July 19, 2023, 12:51:15 PM »
@Bateaux to a degree. I was surprised at how expensive the dried food was these days plus permits run at about $100 for 6ay trips from memory.

In 3 months though I get "golden age"pass which is a huge discount..:)
As a US veteran I was able to acquire a lifetime National Parks pass for $10. Sleeping on ground is pretty cheap.

elledub

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6960 on: July 19, 2023, 12:51:25 PM »
@exflyboy I dehydrate my own backpacking meals. It works out to about $2/ meal. Plus plenty of great areas to hike with zero permit fees. My biggest cost is shoes for backpacking. Once I wear them out they graduate to river shoes then gardening shoes

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6961 on: July 19, 2023, 01:17:33 PM »
@Exflyboy I dehydrate my own backpacking meals. It works out to about $2/ meal. Plus plenty of great areas to hike with zero permit fees. My biggest cost is shoes for backpacking. Once I wear them out they graduate to river shoes then gardening shoes

Yes we are thinking about dehydrating our own.. just have not gotten around to buying the equipment.. Which has to be amortised over the number of meals during its life.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6962 on: July 26, 2023, 10:49:26 AM »
MPP:  OMY syndrome returns.

Passing through $3M in investments, nearing $3.8M overall NW. Soon, weíll be moving into ďBeyondĒ territory. Iím enjoying the new work, but also reassessing why I do it. The money is nice, and it just seems to keep flowing in. Plus the market is going up (for the moment), so the balance sheet keeps looking better and better. But why work? Iím shifting my thoughts to those of leadership, commitment to others, value creation for those around me (where value can be a many different things besides or in addition to money). I wish I had someone to talk with who has some answers and broader philosophical thoughts and challenges for me. I really feel like instead of providing answers, all of this just creates new and different questions.

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6963 on: July 26, 2023, 11:11:45 AM »
MPP:  OMY syndrome returns.

Passing through $3M in investments, nearing $3.8M overall NW. Soon, weíll be moving into ďBeyondĒ territory. Iím enjoying the new work, but also reassessing why I do it. The money is nice, and it just seems to keep flowing in. Plus the market is going up (for the moment), so the balance sheet keeps looking better and better. But why work? Iím shifting my thoughts to those of leadership, commitment to others, value creation for those around me (where value can be a many different things besides or in addition to money). I wish I had someone to talk with who has some answers and broader philosophical thoughts and challenges for me. I really feel like instead of providing answers, all of this just creates new and different questions.




So many options.  It's a bit overwhelming.  Who's advice would you value more than what's in your head & heart?  It seems easier to dream about your paths before you have the means, than it is to choose a path after you have the means.  All the while, time is ticking. 


The trick seems to find the right balance between your obligations and your freedom. 

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6964 on: July 26, 2023, 01:32:11 PM »
Iíve really enjoyed the OMY lifestyle once I realized it was all up to me.  Folks here are a bit over zealous about the evils of OMY and how precious time is, but time, money, and work all have value in the right context.  Other than on this forum, itís hard to feel like a failure for having a good job and extra money (fatFI) and retirement before 50 isnít some magical guarantee to happiness, you still need to figure the rest of life outÖ. As long as work isnít impacting health or relationships, itís not the worst thing to do while coming to a conclusion on whatís next.  And I know plenty of folks that had a rough time in retirement when the second spouse retired.

Ultimately itís really hard to give good advice to others on this without knowing them.

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6965 on: July 26, 2023, 01:39:57 PM »
@Taran Wanderer Captain Obvious here. Ultimately the question comes down to what provides the most fulfillment in the remaining life you have left.

In terms of useful advice I have very little as financially i'm in about the same place, except in addition we have a couple of small pensions, which age 70 (8 years) would pay roughly double today's current spend. Is $3M enough to "make it" another 8 years?

Bottom line the money is becoming less and less meaningful and more money is simply throwing more turnips on a truck already full of turnips! How many turnips can one eat in a lifetime?

Now DW and I did retire, and its nice.. Life of low stress, a few projects to keep me ticking over, DW started and runs a foodbank..

Now there is the prospect of some part time professional work coming up and honestly I'm quite excited about it.... Clearly its got nothing to do with money.. Although, more is always better right?..:)

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6966 on: July 26, 2023, 03:13:12 PM »
@Taran Wanderer Captain Obvious here. Ultimately the question comes down to what provides the most fulfillment in the remaining life you have left.

In terms of useful advice I have very little as financially i'm in about the same place, except in addition we have a couple of small pensions, which age 70 (8 years) would pay roughly double today's current spend. Is $3M enough to "make it" another 8 years?

Bottom line the money is becoming less and less meaningful and more money is simply throwing more turnips on a truck already full of turnips! How many turnips can one eat in a lifetime?

Now DW and I did retire, and its nice.. Life of low stress, a few projects to keep me ticking over, DW started and runs a foodbank..

Now there is the prospect of some part time professional work coming up and honestly I'm quite excited about it.... Clearly its got nothing to do with money.. Although, more is always better right?..:)

Clearly you didn't fall off the turnip truck last week.

thefisherwoman

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6967 on: July 26, 2023, 03:18:48 PM »
@Taran Wanderer Captain Obvious here. Ultimately the question comes down to what provides the most fulfillment in the remaining life you have left.

In terms of useful advice I have very little as financially i'm in about the same place, except in addition we have a couple of small pensions, which age 70 (8 years) would pay roughly double today's current spend. Is $3M enough to "make it" another 8 years?

Bottom line the money is becoming less and less meaningful and more money is simply throwing more turnips on a truck already full of turnips! How many turnips can one eat in a lifetime?

Now DW and I did retire, and its nice.. Life of low stress, a few projects to keep me ticking over, DW started and runs a foodbank..

Now there is the prospect of some part time professional work coming up and honestly I'm quite excited about it.... Clearly its got nothing to do with money.. Although, more is always better right?..:)

Would you mind sharing more about the food bank? Sounds like a wonderful endeavor!

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6968 on: July 26, 2023, 04:16:25 PM »
MPP:  OMY syndrome returns.

Passing through $3M in investments, nearing $3.8M overall NW. Soon, weíll be moving into ďBeyondĒ territory. Iím enjoying the new work, but also reassessing why I do it. The money is nice, and it just seems to keep flowing in. Plus the market is going up (for the moment), so the balance sheet keeps looking better and better. But why work? Iím shifting my thoughts to those of leadership, commitment to others, value creation for those around me (where value can be a many different things besides or in addition to money). I wish I had someone to talk with who has some answers and broader philosophical thoughts and challenges for me. I really feel like instead of providing answers, all of this just creates new and different questions.

Morgan Housel (https://www.morganhousel.com) has a lot of wise stuff to say about money and work. I introduced my wife to his material and she says it has really helped - she is in much the same position as you. She is paid well and mostly enjoys her work but sometimes still wonders if she should be doing something else.

Do check out his podcast and his blog (https://collabfund.com/blog/)

arcturus

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6969 on: July 26, 2023, 06:52:19 PM »
Iíve really enjoyed the OMY lifestyle once I realized it was all up to me.  Folks here are a bit over zealous about the evils of OMY and how precious time is, but time, money, and work all have value in the right context.  Other than on this forum, itís hard to feel like a failure for having a good job and extra money (fatFI) and retirement before 50 isnít some magical guarantee to happiness, you still need to figure the rest of life outÖ. As long as work isnít impacting health or relationships, itís not the worst thing to do while coming to a conclusion on whatís next.  And I know plenty of folks that had a rough time in retirement when the second spouse retired.

Ultimately itís really hard to give good advice to others on this without knowing them.

I've been giving this some thought over the past few months as I observe people who continue to work (in many cases, high stress jobs, long hours, etc.) despite clearly being financially secure and able to retire (in fact one who came out of retirement for non-financial reasons and is now in a high power position).    My only conclusion is that it just depends on the person and how they view their jobs / careers and how they are able to achieve a mental balance.   I am the type who has difficulty turning my "work brain" off and therefore, I believe that I will get a lot more out of life after I am able to finally unplug without the looming thought of emails backing up, deadlines drawing closer, people jockeying for position, office politics, etc.   That stuff bothers me a lot (in fact, seems to be getting worse with each passing year) and yet there are others that don't seem to tire of it in the same way that I have.   So I think at a certain point it comes down to -- what is going to create the most happiness for you and those closest to you?  I am more enjoyable for DW to be around when when I am able to turn the "work brain" off (which happens occasionally on vacations, but usually only after a few days of being away).    I hope that is what guides my decision when the time comes!

« Last Edit: July 26, 2023, 07:17:04 PM by arcturus »

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6970 on: July 26, 2023, 08:19:47 PM »
I've been waiting for one last ass burn to make the final move out.  That happened today.  They are closing the laboratory that I work in alone and moving my position to the main laboratory.  The move will be completed by September 1st. The move won't include me.  I'm done.  I have some vacation left to take and plan to be gone before the move takes place.

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6971 on: July 26, 2023, 11:05:35 PM »
I've been waiting for one last ass burn to make the final move out.  That happened today.  They are closing the laboratory that I work in alone and moving my position to the main laboratory.  The move will be completed by September 1st. The move won't include me.  I'm done.  I have some vacation left to take and plan to be gone before the move takes place.
Woo-hoo! Congratulations. It's been a mighty long time coming.

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6972 on: July 27, 2023, 05:38:45 AM »

I've been giving this some thought over the past few months as I observe people who continue to work (in many cases, high stress jobs, long hours, etc.) despite clearly being financially secure and able to retire (in fact one who came out of retirement for non-financial reasons and is now in a high power position).    My only conclusion is that it just depends on the person and how they view their jobs / careers and how they are able to achieve a mental balance.   I am the type who has difficulty turning my "work brain" off and therefore, I believe that I will get a lot more out of life after I am able to finally unplug without the looming thought of emails backing up, deadlines drawing closer, people jockeying for position, office politics, etc.   That stuff bothers me a lot (in fact, seems to be getting worse with each passing year) and yet there are others that don't seem to tire of it in the same way that I have.   So I think at a certain point it comes down to -- what is going to create the most happiness for you and those closest to you?  I am more enjoyable for DW to be around when when I am able to turn the "work brain" off (which happens occasionally on vacations, but usually only after a few days of being away).    I hope that is what guides my decision when the time comes!

This was one of the main reasons I retired - thoughts about work lived in my head at all times and I could not get rid of them. I am all-or-nothing when it comes to work and am much happier to be on the "nothing" side now :-)

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6973 on: July 27, 2023, 06:53:40 AM »
Iíve really enjoyed the OMY lifestyle once I realized it was all up to me.  Folks here are a bit over zealous about the evils of OMY and how precious time is, but time, money, and work all have value in the right context.  Other than on this forum, itís hard to feel like a failure for having a good job and extra money (fatFI) and retirement before 50 isnít some magical guarantee to happiness, you still need to figure the rest of life outÖ. As long as work isnít impacting health or relationships, itís not the worst thing to do while coming to a conclusion on whatís next.  And I know plenty of folks that had a rough time in retirement when the second spouse retired.

Ultimately itís really hard to give good advice to others on this without knowing them.

I've been giving this some thought over the past few months as I observe people who continue to work (in many cases, high stress jobs, long hours, etc.) despite clearly being financially secure and able to retire (in fact one who came out of retirement for non-financial reasons and is now in a high power position).    My only conclusion is that it just depends on the person and how they view their jobs / careers and how they are able to achieve a mental balance.   I am the type who has difficulty turning my "work brain" off and therefore, I believe that I will get a lot more out of life after I am able to finally unplug without the looming thought of emails backing up, deadlines drawing closer, people jockeying for position, office politics, etc.   That stuff bothers me a lot (in fact, seems to be getting worse with each passing year) and yet there are others that don't seem to tire of it in the same way that I have.   So I think at a certain point it comes down to -- what is going to create the most happiness for you and those closest to you?  I am more enjoyable for DW to be around when when I am able to turn the "work brain" off (which happens occasionally on vacations, but usually only after a few days of being away).    I hope that is what guides my decision when the time comes!

Interesting!  Iím on vacation right now and I hadnít thought about work until I read your post.  I have an out of office message on my work inbox and I do check my other work in box once a day just to know what is going on.  I work for a Norwegian company (an American subsidiary of one) and they take their summer vacation seriously- no interruptions unless itís life or death.  Also, everyone is off in July so work is super slow anywayÖ.  I do like the idea of getting back to it in August when things ramp back up, but the month long break is nice.  More American companies should be like this!

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6974 on: July 28, 2023, 06:50:49 AM »
Inspired by a post by @Nords in a different thread, I found an interesting website with many interviews with people who have made it into this club : https://esimoney.com/category/millionaires/

Entertaining way to spend an idle afternoon :-)

Nords

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6975 on: July 28, 2023, 09:15:35 AM »
Inspired by a post by @Nords in a different thread, I found an interesting website with many interviews with people who have made it into this club : https://esimoney.com/category/millionaires/
Iím glad youíre enjoying them, @2sk22!  Iíve read most of them but not all of them. 

These are not exactly Mustachian essays.  It may be difficult to empathize with some of the concerns expressed in the interviews.

The primary factor in the interviewees' net worth has been big earnings, not a deliberately high savings rate (although there are a few) and definitely not by brilliant investing (but some excel at real estate).  Of course when youíre earning over $500K/year the savings rate is pretty high by default, and investing longevity has a quality all its own.

Note that there are Millionaire Interviews, Interview Updates, Retiree Interviews, Retirement Updates, Six Figure Interviews, and a few other topics.  Itís taken quite a few years to collect the 350+ Millionaire Interviews, and the updates (generally after three years) are even more rare.

For those who just want the high points, hereís a couple short summaries of lessons from the first hundred:
https://esimoney.com/lessons-from-millionaires/
https://esimoney.com/millionaire-stories-how-7-everyday-people-became-wealthy-and-what-we-can-learn-from-them/

If youíre trying to figure out what youíre retiring to, not just retiring from, these people can do anything they want-- and theyíre doing it.  Thereís a lot to unpack.

Now that there are over 400 interviews (of all types) thereís early discussions about researching a more in-depth analysis of all of them and their lessons.  That project is probably a couple years from publishing anything.

This is not a pitch (and Iím certainly not getting affiliate links), but:  of the 900+ people in the Millionaire Money Mentors forum, 139 Millionaire Interview people are members.   About 40 of us are posting in the forums at least weekly. 

Iím learning a tremendous amount about estate planning, philanthropy, and FI lifestyle.  We even had a meetup last April (about 25 of us) and weíre already planning next Aprilís gathering.

Dicey

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6976 on: July 28, 2023, 10:44:24 AM »
Well, you piqued my interest, @Nords. I hopped over, expecting there would be some barrier to entry, but the $599 annual fee stopped me cold. Do they ever offer Black Friday deals?

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6977 on: July 28, 2023, 10:45:53 AM »
Holy crap!  It's 600 bucks a year to play with the ESI club.

That had better be extramarital sex and key swapping for that price!

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6978 on: July 28, 2023, 11:09:20 AM »
Holy crap!  It's 600 bucks a year to play with the ESI club.

That had better be extramarital sex and key swapping for that price!




We'll start a Go Fund Me for you and you can report back.  I'm in for $20.

2sk22

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6979 on: July 28, 2023, 12:21:28 PM »
The primary factor in the interviewees' net worth has been big earnings, not a deliberately high savings rate (although there are a few) and definitely not by brilliant investing (but some excel at real estate).  Of course when youíre earning over $500K/year the savings rate is pretty high by default, and investing longevity has a quality all its own.

Indeed, that's why I found the interviews interesting: their stories roughly corresponds to my circumstances. We made good money and saved a lot of it but:
- we have never been quite as frugal and DIY as many Mustachians
- we saved a lot in absolute terms but not as high a fraction of our income as many of the people here.

I didn't discover FIRE and MMM until we had already achieved and exceeded FI. Things may have well played out differently if I had come across FIRE say ten years ago.

Nords

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6980 on: July 28, 2023, 03:49:21 PM »

Well, you piqued my interest, @Nords. I hopped over, expecting there would be some barrier to entry, but the $599 annual fee stopped me cold. Do they ever offer Black Friday deals?
My 1100-word response here is going to resemble a values debate of frugal versus cheap.  That forum is a highly individual decision, and itís not for everyone.  It might not be for anyone here, but please ask me questions or send me a PM.  Iíll skip over the marketing hype. 

At the end of this essay Iíll mention a way to get a free membership, but it has to be earned.  Very few of this forumís members will see the value in it.  Others wonít want to share personal numbers or risk the doxxing.

Iím guessing that the Millionaire Money Mentor founders (John Nardini & Steve Adcock) will open the forum to new members when the traffic from the current members dies down.  Iím sure that members drop out, but I donít know what the churn rate may be.  Over the last three years, memberships have been sold during 4th of July, Labor Day, and the end of the year.  Right now the forum is pretty busy... a lot like the early growth of Early-Retirement .org, or like this forum was during its early years.

John hasnít said anything yet, but he may have one more membership offer before the end of 2023.  I canít predict a date.  Possibly January 2024.  The easiest way to track the offer is to subscribe to ESIMoney .com and wait for the announcement there.

Holy crap!  It's 600 bucks a year to play with the ESI club.
Back in October 2020, I reacted the same way when the membership was $490/year.  Who in the world pays for a forum?!?  Suckers.

The free products that come with the first yearís membership are cool in the sense of ďHereís a bunch of things that I wouldnít pay for individually but are interesting to read as a package deal.Ē  Itís like buying a copy of a book instead of borrowing it from the library, or buying the boxed set of a series at a discount.  I no longer remember what free products I got when I signed up three years ago, and at least 95% of Mustachians can replicate them on their own.

Iím at a stage of my life where $1000 is an experiment, not a commitment.  I joined because my inner Ramit Sethi asked me why I couldnít give myself permission to try out a potentially valuable product with a seven-day money-back guarantee.  I could certainly afford it out of our entertainment budget, let alone our travel or investing categories.  Well, weíre no longer budgeting, but I digress.

After reading for a few days, I was hooked by the fact that paid forums have no trolls, no haters, no scammers, and no spammers.  This might seem like a big ďWell, DUH, NordsĒ, but Iíve been moderating forums for nearly two decades.  (Even the Mustache forums have their problem members, right?)  I never noticed this benefit until the problems were absent. 

Everyone on the Millionaires forum can do math.  Everyone has real-life experience in building wealth.  Everyone has been fired, or dealt with hostile work environments, or faced adversity.  Everyone has a healthy ego (including me) yet has been challenged on it before (including me) and maintains enough humility (probably me) to admit that they might be mistaken in their opinions.

There are still arguments, yet theyíre civil.  There are rants but no ad hominem attacks.  The forum is almost self-moderating.  Once John had to actually step in and chill a poster, later refunding his money and canceling his account.  (The poster was a foul-mouthed, paranoid, conspiracy-theory extremist... who also happened to be a millionaire.)  Other than him, the most vigorous arguments I can recall have ended in consensus that weíll always have different perspectives.

Those last three paragraphs are the primary reason that Iím on the Millionaire Money Mentors forum nearly every day-- usually for an hour or two.  I get tremendous inspiration from answering the thoughtful questions, for sharing my stories, for writing a better blog post, and for writing the next book.  Theyíre also the reason that now I only check in with other forums weekly or when Iím tagged. 

My biggest wins from the forum have been learning about:
- the details of real estate syndications,
- the gossipy analysis of the teams who are running various real estate syndications,
- the due diligence of commercial real estate (many buildings, millions of square feet),
- the workload of landlording thousands of doors of residential multifamily real estate,
- having so many rentals that you start your own property-management company,
- the logistics of running a family private bank,
- having two (retired) billionaires as golfing buddies,
- estate planning (at the $10M level),
- gifting (at the $50M level),
- trusts for dealing with estate planning, tax avoidance, owning assets, and other legal issues,
- entrepreneurship (on steroids),
- negotiating a higher salary (or fewer hours) when youíre already earning $250K/year,
- six-figure consulting contracts,
- financial planning when you earn more than $250K/year (I get this question from some military vets),
- donating over $100K/year to charity,
- philanthropy (as in, establishing your own charitable foundation),
- concierge medicine (like detailed annual physicals or joint replacements), and
- lifestyle.  So much on lifestyle.

Iíve made better decisions with information that has saved me tens of thousands of dollars.  We also resolved a family estate-planning question that would have cost us $2500 just to learn what questions to ask the lawyers.  Now weíre educated enough to pay the lawyers to debate the solutions and do the paperwork.

The forum is also a valuable insight into the emotions of behavioral financial psychology.  Iím the guy who explains the tiny important details of the 4% SWR to the rest of the members, and that guy who challenges smart rich people on their Just One More Year syndrome.  Whether you have $600K or $50M:
ď... the money has to last me for the rest of my life and I might need it someday!  Besides, I like my boss, and they pay me well for stuff that I enjoy doing anyway, and Iíd have to buy my own health insurance, and Social Security might not be there in 2035, and I want to travel, and I want long-term care insurance, and...Ē
https://militaryfinancialindependence.com/2023/04/11/fear-and-the-just-one-more-year-syndrome/

We Millionaire forum members still have problems with our aging parents who donít want to let us help manage their assets.  We still have questions about the value of college or finding good liability insurance.  We still worry (a lot) about raising money-savvy kids while building their grit, motivation, & initiative.  We still have perpetual debates about paying off the mortgage (or investing).  We still discuss vocabulary like value, frugal, and cheap.

That had better be extramarital sex and key swapping for that price!
At our meetup a few months ago, I had an incredible weekend learning more about forum members (and their spouses) and talking about life. 

During that weekend I had an entire new audience for my sea stories.  Some of us learned not to play poker with a psychologist who earns over $1M/year in textbook royalties.  We heard from another member who engineered their severance package and has been travel-hacking the world.  A general partner of a real-estate syndicator gave a short talk on the economics of storage facilities and then let us interrogate him for over an hour on analysis, fees, and pandemic failures.

I found myself tutoring a friend on backdoor Roth IRAs in the 37% income-tax bracket.  Theyíre burning out on their career in their early 30s but itís hard to give up the money and they might not have enough yet.  (Spoiler:  they have more than enough.)

Coincidentally our meetup was held in The Villages (the retirement community in central Florida), and Iíve learned a lot about that place too.  Iím going back there for our meetup in 2024.

The closest comparison to this Millionaire meetup is CampFI or Camp Mustache, but with no Mt. Si hikes-- and in the luxurious accommodations of the Brownwood Hotel & Spa.

Hacking the free membership:  when I joined in 2020 and met all the other people whoíd written their Millionaire Interviews, I forced myself to finally write my mine.  (Iíd been intrigued by it for several years but never made it a priority.)  Every interview is the same questions every time, and if youíve read a dozen other interviews then writing yours is mainly an exercise of introspection & persistence.  When mine was published, John refunded my pro-rated portion of my annual membership.  Iím not charged for annual renewals as long as I share in the forum discussions at least weekly.

My first draft of my MI was 4000 words:  Question, Answer, Question, Answer, The End.  When I showed my draft to my spouse (who always reads my first drafts) her feedback was:  ďBooooooooring!Ē  I started all over again and shared stories instead of answering questions... and ended at over 7000 words.  Next, my Retiree Interview will be published in September-- itís 16,000 words.  In my defense, it covers over 20 years of retiree. 

Contact John if youíre interested in writing your MI.  However heís mentioned many times that fewer than 10% of the people whoíve volunteered to write a MI for ESIMoney have actually followed through on their personal commitment.

solon

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6981 on: July 28, 2023, 06:18:27 PM »
Where is the forum? I have been all over that site but I don't see anything about a forum?

Nords

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6982 on: July 28, 2023, 06:44:12 PM »
Where is the forum? I have been all over that site but I don't see anything about a forum?
Here's the landing page when the forum re-opens for new members:
https://millionairemoneymentors.com/

And here's the site of the forum itself:
https://forums.millionairemoneymentors.com/

Now that I've cut&pasted those links, I realize it's the same URL format as the MrMoneyMustache site & forum.

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6983 on: July 28, 2023, 08:03:39 PM »
@Nords I'm sure it's actually awesome.

I'm just too country and dumb to fit in.



Nords

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6984 on: July 28, 2023, 08:46:58 PM »
I'm just too country and dumb to fit in.
I'm not sure that'll keep you from fitting in, but you never know where you'll find your tribe.

Another Reader

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6985 on: July 29, 2023, 08:20:35 AM »
Hi Nords:

I have a huge amount of respect for you and what you have done for so many people.  I qualify to join the forum, but in what I have seen so far of the founder, I don't see anything remarkable.  Is it the discussion among the members that makes this worth the investment?

Bateaux

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6986 on: July 29, 2023, 08:45:59 AM »
Nords has been here since dirt.
He's certainly doing this to help others.  He doesn't need the cash.  He was here when I was a sub millionaire.  Now at 3.3M without houses and crap I'm still working another month.  There could be many secrets I'm missing out on

 
Throw Down the Gauntlet / Re: Race to $1,000,000
ę on: February 13, 2014, 06:32:33 AM Ľ
I don't think I can go full Mustachian.  I'm going to need at least 2 million working for me before I retire.  I do not feel rich or comfortable having passed the 1 million mark.  I admire those who can make it work on less.

Nords

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6987 on: July 29, 2023, 10:16:52 AM »
I have a huge amount of respect for you and what you have done for so many people.  I qualify to join the forum, but in what I have seen so far of the founder, I don't see anything remarkable.  Is it the discussion among the members that makes this worth the investment?
I think the discussion is outstanding.  It's not just the financial analysis that leads me to better decisions (and avoids mistakes) but also the lifestyle questions. 

None of these people are buying private jets or yachts-- most of them don't even feel comfortable buying first-class airfare.  I knew that I wasn't going to find the secret codes for trading the stock market, but I was very surprised to see how many people have the same emotional concerns at $10M that everyone has with less than $1M.  The emotions of Just One More Year are far worse than I thought.

If you have questions about the financial aspects of investment real estate, the Millionaire Money Mentors forum is far better than anything I've found in BiggerPockets.  (I'm better at the mechanics of maintenance & repair, but the other members know far more about capitalizing millions of dollars into rehabs or buy&hold.)  They're very good with landlord-tenant law and taxes.

If you're planning an exit from a corporate career, many of these members have been in C-suite jobs or have run large HR teams.  They know all of the challenges and the dirty tricks.  They have superior experience & advice for raising income, changing jobs, changing careers, and downshifting to consulting.

I've had complicated questions about estate planning, revocable living trusts, gifting, and philanthropy.  I've already tried asking those questions on forums like this one, but the level of personal details that I've shared would not work well with the trolls, haters, and scammers on free forums.  I've learned that I'm out there on the tail of the bell curve on all of these questions, but we've all figured out our answers.  I'm comfortable with sharing far more personal detail on the Millionaire forum than I am here.

At our last meetup, John (ESIMoney) mentioned that he's personally saved tens of thousands of dollars from everyone's advice.  (He's making money from the forum, too, but he's paying the bills for servers, bandwidth, Steve Adcock's tech skills, and a Discourse license.)  He's already blogged for two decades (at various sites) and he plans to keep going with ESIMoney and the Millionaire Money Mentor forums for years.  He and Steve ran J Money's Rockstar Finance for years before they sold it (which is another interesting story) and they're replicating that business model with millionaire mentors.

I've made at least as many friends there as I have at Camp Mustache and CampFIs. 

Worst case:  you subscribe to ESIMoney to be notified of the next Millionaire membership offer, you pay $600, you browse the forums for a week, and you ask for your money back.  John doesn't jerk people around.

Nords has been here since dirt.
He's certainly doing this to help others.  He doesn't need the cash. 
I wish these resources had been around when I was starting out in life, and I'm paying it forward!

Dancin'Dog

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6988 on: July 29, 2023, 11:14:41 AM »
@Nords how are members' credentials evaluated when joining the forum?  Are the members anonymous?  What number is the membership level capped at, and what is the purpose of a cap? 




Nords

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6989 on: July 29, 2023, 03:14:21 PM »
@Nords how are members' credentials evaluated when joining the forum? 
Anyone whoís willing to pay the annual fee can join the forum.  Thereís no verification of assets like one might have with startups or syndications seeking accredited investors.  I guess John or Steve will see your name on your payment method.

Members whose Millionaire Interview has been published on the ESIMoney blog have the word ďMentorĒ added to their profile, and thereís also an additional section of the forum thatís intended to be for Mentors only posting with other Mentors.  However the Mentor section of the forum only gets a few posts per month while the rest of the forumís sections are much busier.  Most of the Mentors are posting in the same sections as everyone else.

I donít know if John tries to verify assets for the Millionaire Interviews.  I doubt he does.  (He didnít for me, but he already knew Iím an accredited investor.)  He probably just takes our word for our numbers.

The forum has a perpetual thread ďNet Worth in 2023Ē where we post our... net worths.  Those who choose to post in it usually share their numbers but some just mention percentages.

Are the members anonymous? 
Your choice.  Most of the members stay anonymous.  Some are anonymous and mention the number of their Millionaire Interview in their profile, where you can learn more details about their assets and location/lifestyle.  A few (like me) share our actual names because weíre already public figures.

I suppose you could pay your membership fee with a gift card or an anonymous corporate account, but youíd have to ask John about that.

What number is the membership level capped at, and what is the purpose of a cap?
I donít know the answers to either of those questions.  Iím not aware of a formal cap, and John might just be figuring out his parameters as he goes along. 

There are currently 918 users of whom 140 are Mentors.  Thatís barely 2% of the size of the Mustache forums, and thereís probably a similar percentage of active users.  I think I see the same 20-30 poster names every week. 

I know that during the week or two that John & Steve open the forum for new members, they get hundreds of questions like these.  Thereís also the inevitable overhead of processing new members' payments, making sure the bonus products get delivered, and helping new members settle into the forum software. 

I donít have a feel for how much busier the forum has become over the last few years.  I remember that I stopped reading every thread on the Mustache forum years ago when it got to something like 200 new posts per day, but the Millionaire forum is rarely more than 50 posts per day.

They might only open a few times a year simply because theyíre busy enjoying life for the rest of the year.

itchyfeet

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6990 on: July 29, 2023, 07:18:05 PM »
Decided to take a peek in here today. Iíve been lurking and occasionally posting here since the thread was first formed, and have been struggling to get to FIRE ever since. Sigh.

I was very happy to read today that Batteaux has finally pulled the pin (almost). That
probably leaves me as the final one of the first page posters still working from back in 2017 when CarJack created this thread. This  is certainly not a race that I wanted to finish last in. But it looks like I am last.

Unfortunately I keep dreaming up exciting ways to spend money 20 or more years from now. Also, I have become more conservative over the past 6 years in wanting greater certainty that I will actually be able to afford the dreams I keep coming up with. Probably too conservative. I have now landed on a targeted 3.33% draw down rate, ascribing to ERNís research on success rates when stock markets are highly priced.

The good news? With the good run we have had on stocks and Realestate prices this year I am now on the cusp of my latest inflated ďNumberĒ.

The final hurdle is that we are currently building a new home, which will be finished mid next year, and are financing the build with debt. We will sell our current home and clear the debt only once the new place is ready to move in to. Hence we are very exposed to what house prices will be in our neck of the woods mid next year, and also the risk of having to finance the build longer if there are delays in construction. We feel we can not FIRE without a contingency in case house prices drop 10% or 20% between today and the sale date for our home, which is unlikely but quite possible. It is also possible that I am over valuing my current home despite my best efforts to be objective.

We are quite safely placed with our other investments, so we wonít have a big drop in net worth in the next 6 months, other than the risk on the sale value of our home.

So today, DW and I decided we will push on a few months more until I get my 2023 bonus (worth around $100K AUD) in March 2024, and finish up 5 April 2024 (might as well get paid over Easter).

So thatís it. No more moving goal posts. DW is a teacher and will tell her boss this month that she wonít be available for the 2024 calendar year (the school year here in Australia so her boss can look for a replacement. Iíll keep my gob tightly shut until Jan when I have to give 90 days notice.

Great to finally have a locked in plan. 8 months left of my working life.

Iíll make myself more present here over this coming year so that I can be kept inspired and be kept honest.


secondcor521

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6991 on: July 29, 2023, 07:46:15 PM »

Why not sell the current place now and rent until the new house is done?

Yes, you'd move twice, but you'd eliminate the real estate pricing risk that is concerning to you.

deborah

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6992 on: July 29, 2023, 08:19:51 PM »

Why not sell the current place now and rent until the new house is done?

Yes, you'd move twice, but you'd eliminate the real estate pricing risk that is concerning to you.
If itís where I think it is, house prices are currently still rising sharply and a number of building companies have been going bankrupt. Both reasons to do what heís doing.

ixtap

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6993 on: July 29, 2023, 09:19:03 PM »

None of these people are buying private jets or yachts-- most of them don't even feel comfortable buying first-class airfare. 

I won't even buy premium economy tickets, but I live on my boat, which technically qualifies as a yacht by most definitions.

Nords

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6994 on: July 30, 2023, 08:47:59 AM »

None of these people are buying private jets or yachts-- most of them don't even feel comfortable buying first-class airfare. 

I won't even buy premium economy tickets, but I live on my boat, which technically qualifies as a yacht by most definitions.
One member of the forum has a nice liveaboard sailboat.  He, his spouse, and their cat are currently working their way through the national park waters around Alaska.  He's also using a drone to take photos, so the nature pictures are incredible.

Another member of the forum crews a few days a week for fishing & SCUBA charters.  I think he also either has his captain's license or is close to it, but I can't remember any discussions about buying his own boat.  His spouse is wrapping up her career and he's padding their assets a little while he waits on her.  We spent a few hours together at last April's Money Mentor meetup and he's built himself one of the more impressive FI spreadsheet projections that I've seen.

Exflyboy

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6995 on: July 30, 2023, 12:02:52 PM »
@Nords Hey good to hear from you. The surfing lessons you gave us was one of the highlights of our Hawaii trip!

And no, we still can't bring ourselves to pay for upgraded airline tickets.. $6000 each for a ticket to go to the UK when I got a row of three cattle class seats for $800... I just can't..:)

Nords

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6996 on: July 30, 2023, 12:51:43 PM »
@Nords Hey good to hear from you. The surfing lessons you gave us was one of the highlights of our Hawaii trip!
Glad to hear it!  I paddled out this morning in 2-4 feet around a family who was having a group lesson.

And no, we still can't bring ourselves to pay for upgraded airline tickets.. $6000 each for a ticket to go to the UK when I got a row of three cattle class seats for $800... I just can't..:)
It's another Perpetual Internet Debate over finding the value in the price-- contrasted with the financial advice of "If you don't fly first class then your heirs will."  But $6000 also helps a lot of food banks and homeless shelters.

We still fly military Space A whenever we can, especially C-17s.  We really value the experience and the camaraderie.  The heated decks are nice too...

baludon

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6997 on: July 30, 2023, 08:27:16 PM »
I flew Space A once from Dover to Ramstein or Stuttgart, now I canít remember, for annual leave a long, long time ago.  I remember plenty of retirees hanging out at the terminal. There was this couple just waiting for an interesting destination to get on and I was kinda blown away of how cool of an adventure it would to just go wherever the winds of availability will take you.

Sadly, life got in the way and I didnít get the chance to retire from the military. Not a regret though just thought Space A was a great retirement benefit.

I remember the chicken dinner on that C-5 flight was the best airplane food I ever had.

itchyfeet

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6998 on: July 30, 2023, 11:39:11 PM »

Why not sell the current place now and rent until the new house is done?

Yes, you'd move twice, but you'd eliminate the real estate pricing risk that is concerning to you.
If itís where I think it is, house prices are currently still rising sharply and a number of building companies have been going bankrupt. Both reasons to do what heís doing.

House prices are still rising, but I dont have confidence they will necessarily be doing so next year. However, I am not good at predicting the future so wont be acting on my gut instincts.
Yes, there are plenty of builders going bust, but I have confidence that my builder is in good enough shape to get my build done.

We have debated moving twice alot, but for various reasons have decided not to. I wont list the reasons here as it was a closely contested debate. But I do agree that it would go along way to reducing risk if we did rent.

One other reason for me to take the last bonus check, besides my fear on a housing correction, is that I have modelled everything assuming a 40 year retirement, which will take me to 91 and DW to 85. There is a reasonable chance one of us might still be in decent shape by then. If we invest $100K AUD now and leave it grow, and assuming it doubles every 10 years in real terms, it will be worth $1.6M (in todays $'AUD) in 40 years time. That $1.6M might be very helpful if DW lives to 100+. And who knows what other unexpected events could occur over the next 50 years.

pecunia

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Re: Race from $2M to $4M...and Beyond!
« Reply #6999 on: July 31, 2023, 06:56:33 AM »

Why not sell the current place now and rent until the new house is done?

Yes, you'd move twice, but you'd eliminate the real estate pricing risk that is concerning to you.
If itís where I think it is, house prices are currently still rising sharply and a number of building companies have been going bankrupt. Both reasons to do what heís doing.

House prices are still rising, but I dont have confidence they will necessarily be doing so next year. However, I am not good at predicting the future so wont be acting on my gut instincts.
Yes, there are plenty of builders going bust, but I have confidence that my builder is in good enough shape to get my build done.

We have debated moving twice alot, but for various reasons have decided not to. I wont list the reasons here as it was a closely contested debate. But I do agree that it would go along way to reducing risk if we did rent.

One other reason for me to take the last bonus check, besides my fear on a housing correction, is that I have modelled everything assuming a 40 year retirement, which will take me to 91 and DW to 85. There is a reasonable chance one of us might still be in decent shape by then. If we invest $100K AUD now and leave it grow, and assuming it doubles every 10 years in real terms, it will be worth $1.6M (in todays $'AUD) in 40 years time. That $1.6M might be very helpful if DW lives to 100+. And who knows what other unexpected events could occur over the next 50 years.

"In Australia, a boy born in 2019Ė2021 can expect to live to the age of 81.3 years and a girl would be expected to live to 85.4 years compared to 51.1 for boys and 54.8 years for girls born in in 1891Ė1900."  -  That's what I don't like about this retirement thing.  You are planning for death.  It's really kind of morbid.  I wonder if actuaries become depressed alcoholics.