Epic FU money stories

[Adventine]

Thought this might not be epic to most MMMers, but maybe to non-Mustachians.

Wife and I know we've got FU money. She had to travel overseas for a family member's medical emergency on the weekend.
Paying stupid prices for a flight to Southeast Asia in less than 24 hours? No issue.
Booked hotel rooms for her sis and bro too? No problem. (They're well off. We have the classic Asian problem of everyone wants to pay for others. But being able to book for her bro who's taking care of the parents on travel, and her sis who has work and kid issues to deal with - that's when money becomes a tool to lighten their burden, etc.)
Wife told her boss and offered to quit. He said "Nope, go and take care of family. Go buy a portable monitor and expense it. Expense anything else you may need for work or related to it." She may do a bit of admin work but nothing else. He didn't even talk about hours or pay. Good chap!
Her initial 5 weeks might become longer, and she'll offer again to quit. We'd discussed her quitting in a couple of years, but her taking the option now doesn't change things one bit.

Being frugal helps build a financial Mjolnir to strike at the right time.

Good for you and your wife!


I've also had to book emergency flights to Southeast Asia for the exact same reason.


Hope the family member's medical issue gets resolved in a positive way.

[Chaplin]

Being frugal helps build a financial Mjolnir to strike at the right time.

That's a line for the ages!

[glacio09]

Thought this might not be epic to most MMMers, but maybe to non-Mustachians.

Wife and I know we've got FU money. She had to travel overseas for a family member's medical emergency on the weekend.
Paying stupid prices for a flight to Southeast Asia in less than 24 hours? No issue.
Booked hotel rooms for her sis and bro too? No problem. (They're well off. We have the classic Asian problem of everyone wants to pay for others. But being able to book for her bro who's taking care of the parents on travel, and her sis who has work and kid issues to deal with - that's when money becomes a tool to lighten their burden, etc.)
Wife told her boss and offered to quit. He said "Nope, go and take care of family. Go buy a portable monitor and expense it. Expense anything else you may need for work or related to it." She may do a bit of admin work but nothing else. He didn't even talk about hours or pay. Good chap!
Her initial 5 weeks might become longer, and she'll offer again to quit. We'd discussed her quitting in a couple of years, but her taking the option now doesn't change things one bit.

Being frugal helps build a financial Mjolnir to strike at the right time.

I came across a quote somewhere that when you are financially stable most emergencies just become annoyances. It's been so true. Being able to focus on either the logistical and emotional problems and hand wave away the financial has been great.

On a lighter version of this, my husband grew up with travel being an extravagance and most trips being intense boy scout camping. I'm slowly easing his packing anxiety by reminding him that Berlin is not in fact the middle of nowhere and they will have toothpaste there if we need some. It's been fun.

[LennStar]

On a lighter version of this, my husband grew up with travel being an extravagance and most trips being intense boy scout camping. I'm slowly easing his packing anxiety by reminding him that Berlin is not in fact the middle of nowhere and they will have toothpaste there if we need some. It's been fun.

Yes, we have that stuff. In nearly every supermarket, dm or Rossmann ;)

I grew up poor too and was always wondering about the complainypants that they only made one long range travel this year or - gasp - only to a German place!! (I had 2 holidays outside Germany until I was in my 20s.)
That are, of course, the same people that lament any tax increase, inflation or gas price rise as the end of the world, while I am always surprised at where the gas price is when I fill up. It always is 20 cents different from last time, sometimes up, sometimes down.
And I have problems seeing the problem with not being able to "enjoy" a crampted 12 hour flight, 12 hours of transfer to/from airport per direction, jetlag and all the other fantastic stuff I don't get to experience staying in Germany.

[dandarc]

@jinga nation - very impactful story on why everyone should endeavor to have FU money.

Similar (much smaller scale logistically) for me in December - basically forced my mom to stay in a hotel with me post-surgery by flying up and making an offer so generous she wouldn't refuse. They could totally afford this arrangement whenever necessary but absolutely would not over irrational money worries. Was good for everyone - for multiple reasons, their house is just not very safe for a person in her 70's with mobility issues and then add on recovering from significant surgery. My mom actually thanked the hotel manager more than once for how well the accessible bathroom worked for her with all the grab-bars.

[NorthernIkigai]

On a lighter version of this, my husband grew up with travel being an extravagance and most trips being intense boy scout camping. I'm slowly easing his packing anxiety by reminding him that Berlin is not in fact the middle of nowhere and they will have toothpaste there if we need some. It's been fun.

Yes, we have that stuff. In nearly every supermarket, dm or Rossmann ;)

...unless you arrive on a Sunday, when most of those are closed! Which may feel weird to a visiting American.

[AMandM]

I came across a quote somewhere that when you are financially stable most emergencies just become annoyances. It's been so true. Being able to focus on either the logistical and emotional problems and hand wave away the financial has been great.

My BIL used to have a business mentor who would say, "That's a not a problem, it's an expense" if it was a problem that could be solved with (available) money.

[glacio09]

On a lighter version of this, my husband grew up with travel being an extravagance and most trips being intense boy scout camping. I'm slowly easing his packing anxiety by reminding him that Berlin is not in fact the middle of nowhere and they will have toothpaste there if we need some. It's been fun.

Yes, we have that stuff. In nearly every supermarket, dm or Rossmann ;)

...unless you arrive on a Sunday, when most of those are closed! Which may feel weird to a visiting American.

The Sunday I was prepared for, the Monday after being Unity day I was not. Thankfully it was only some window shopping that I was leaving to the last day of the trip. It makes for a good reason to go back.

[RWTL]

I came across a quote somewhere that when you are financially stable most emergencies just become annoyances. It's been so true. Being able to focus on either the logistical and emotional problems and hand wave away the financial has been great.

My BIL used to have a business mentor who would say, "That's a not a problem, it's an expense" if it was a problem that could be solved with (available) money.

I like both of these thoughts and might even modify the first quote to "...most emergencies just become a non-issue."   We've had a number of things come up that I've just shrugged and said, "Ok." when perhaps in my 20's or 30's it would have been anxiety provoking.

[Laura33]

I came across a quote somewhere that when you are financially stable most emergencies just become annoyances. It's been so true. Being able to focus on either the logistical and emotional problems and hand wave away the financial has been great.

My BIL used to have a business mentor who would say, "That's a not a problem, it's an expense" if it was a problem that could be solved with (available) money.

I like both of these thoughts and might even modify the first quote to "...most emergencies just become a non-issue."   We've had a number of things come up that I've just shrugged and said, "Ok." when perhaps in my 20's or 30's it would have been anxiety provoking.

I call this "solving a problem by throwing money at it."  Terrible if you do it all the time, but amazingly freeing to know you can when you really need to.

[jeninco]

I came across a quote somewhere that when you are financially stable most emergencies just become annoyances. It's been so true. Being able to focus on either the logistical and emotional problems and hand wave away the financial has been great.

My BIL used to have a business mentor who would say, "That's a not a problem, it's an expense" if it was a problem that could be solved with (available) money.

I like both of these thoughts and might even modify the first quote to "...most emergencies just become a non-issue."   We've had a number of things come up that I've just shrugged and said, "Ok." when perhaps in my 20's or 30's it would have been anxiety provoking.

I call this "solving a problem by throwing money at it."  Terrible if you do it all the time, but amazingly freeing to know you can when you really need to.

Ha, I less tactfully say "it's not a PROBLEM if you can solve it by throwing money at it (and you have the money available)" At that point, it's mostly an inconvenience.

[AlanStache]

I came across a quote somewhere that when you are financially stable most emergencies just become annoyances. It's been so true. Being able to focus on either the logistical and emotional problems and hand wave away the financial has been great.

My BIL used to have a business mentor who would say, "That's a not a problem, it's an expense" if it was a problem that could be solved with (available) money.

I like both of these thoughts and might even modify the first quote to "...most emergencies just become a non-issue."   We've had a number of things come up that I've just shrugged and said, "Ok." when perhaps in my 20's or 30's it would have been anxiety provoking.

I call this "solving a problem by throwing money at it."  Terrible if you do it all the time, but amazingly freeing to know you can when you really need to.

Ha, I less tactfully say "it's not a PROBLEM if you can solve it by throwing money at it (and you have the money available)" At that point, it's mostly an inconvenience.

It is not against the law to park here, you just have to pay 250$ to the city if they send you a bill. 

[Gerard]

It is not against the law to park here, you just have to pay 250$ to the city if they send you a bill.

What's the saying? "To rich people, fines are license fees"?

[Alternatepriorities]

It is not against the law to park here, you just have to pay 250$ to the city if they send you a bill.

What's the saying? "To rich people, fines are license fees"?

Does that still work if you only got rich by being frugal? I've been FIRE'd two and a half years, and I still struggle with "wasting" money on things like parking at the airport. Not sure how much money I would need to just park illegally and plan to pay the fine.

[Gerard]

It is not against the law to park here, you just have to pay 250$ to the city if they send you a bill.

What's the saying? "To rich people, fines are license fees"?

Does that still work if you only got rich by being frugal? I've been FIRE'd two and a half years, and I still struggle with "wasting" money on things like parking at the airport. Not sure how much money I would need to just park illegally and plan to pay the fine.

I mostly hear the quotation from people pointing out that money-based fines are in effect discrimination against the poor.

But even in a frugal context, there are advantages to knowing you can buy your way out of trouble if you have to. Like, I can take the bus home at night, knowing that the one time in 20 that I miss the last bus, I have enough money for cab fare.

[RWTL]

I like both of these thoughts and might even modify the first quote to "...most emergencies just become a non-issue."   We've had a number of things come up that I've just shrugged and said, "Ok." when perhaps in my 20's or 30's it would have been anxiety provoking.

A few hours after posting this, I had a real life example.  I large tree branch fell on the roof of my truck, putting several large (2 fists wide) dents in it.  I was disappointed, but I have the $500 that will cover my insurance deductible and I can drive it.  No real anxiety.

[Sibley]

When my AC went out days before a dangerous heatwave, knowing that I had the money to buy window air units, or just go to a hotel for a few days made it much less stressful. Money doesn't fix everything. Money enables you to fix things though.

[NorthernIkigai]

It is not against the law to park here, you just have to pay 250$ to the city if they send you a bill.

What's the saying? "To rich people, fines are license fees"?

Does that still work if you only got rich by being frugal? I've been FIRE'd two and a half years, and I still struggle with "wasting" money on things like parking at the airport. Not sure how much money I would need to just park illegally and plan to pay the fine.

I mostly hear the quotation from people pointing out that money-based fines are in effect discrimination against the poor.

In some countries, certain fines are based on the person’s income. So you sometimes hear about speeding fines of 50k or so. The point is that it *should* hurt, and that it should teach them to stop speeding.

[Alternatepriorities]

It is not against the law to park here, you just have to pay 250$ to the city if they send you a bill.

What's the saying? "To rich people, fines are license fees"?

Does that still work if you only got rich by being frugal? I've been FIRE'd two and a half years, and I still struggle with "wasting" money on things like parking at the airport. Not sure how much money I would need to just park illegally and plan to pay the fine.

I mostly hear the quotation from people pointing out that money-based fines are in effect discrimination against the poor.

In some countries, certain fines are based on the person’s income. So you sometimes hear about speeding fines of 50k or so. The point is that it *should* hurt, and that it should teach them to stop speeding.

I’d be happy to see all fines based that way… It would help level the playing field. I mentioned this comment to my brother today and he told me of someone he knew would would return rental cars by just parking them in the departure drop off lane… 

[NorthernIkigai]

It is not against the law to park here, you just have to pay 250$ to the city if they send you a bill.

What's the saying? "To rich people, fines are license fees"?

Does that still work if you only got rich by being frugal? I've been FIRE'd two and a half years, and I still struggle with "wasting" money on things like parking at the airport. Not sure how much money I would need to just park illegally and plan to pay the fine.

I mostly hear the quotation from people pointing out that money-based fines are in effect discrimination against the poor.

In some countries, certain fines are based on the person’s income. So you sometimes hear about speeding fines of 50k or so. The point is that it *should* hurt, and that it should teach them to stop speeding.

I’d be happy to see all fines based that way… It would help level the playing field. I mentioned this comment to my brother today and he told me of someone he knew would would return rental cars by just parking them in the departure drop off lane…

You'd think the rental car companies would have conditions in their contracts that would let them recoup the costs for both the fees and the hassle of that. If not the first time it happened, definitely after it's happened a few times.

Yes, I'm also all in favour of income-based fines. Of course Mustachians know very well that income and wealth don't always correlate. But where I am, there's not that much old money that you'd have a lot of people with large wealth but no or low income. And income is something the government tracks very closely, so that's easy to use as a measure of "how much will this fine affect this person".

[LennStar]

If you have a high income, you should pay high fines, regardless of your wealth. It has to hurt, and if it hurts harder because you can't hold your money together I won't cry.

And if you have a "filthy" high wealth, it always comes with high maintenance costs, so just for them you aslo have a high income.

The only ones not much affected would be the "mustachian" FIRE millionaire who lives below their means - and I daresay those are not people with a habit of incurring fines. (Would be nice if there is a study about that.)

I am all for income-based fines everywhere, including parking violations (mentioned for a reason).
Hm... oh, I see English has a good name for that, even if you don't use the concept: day-fine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-fine

[former player]

It was tried in the UK a couple of decades or so ago but as soon as the chattering classes started getting high four-figure fines for speeding offences it was quickly dropped.

[merula]

It was tried in the UK a couple of decades or so ago but as soon as the chattering classes started getting high four-figure fines for speeding offences it was quickly dropped.

Every time I think I can't be surprised about the class problems in the UK, something new comes up. (1) High four-figures doesn't seem all that high, even, and (2) isn't that the whole point?! Sheesh

[lutorm]

I am all for income-based fines everywhere, including parking violations (mentioned for a reason).
Hm... oh, I see English has a good name for that, even if you don't use the concept: day-fine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-fine

Sweden  and, I think, the other Nordic countries use this. Of course, as a FIRE, you may be wealthy but not have a high income, so it wouldn't necessarily affect you anyway.

[pasadenafr]

I never knew income-based fines were a thing, but now that I think about it, I agree it's a good idea.

I just had a conversation yesterday, where I was defending progressive income taxes, saying they're the only fair solution. I live in a no-income-tax state, and most people I know defend that tooth and nails. And then they proceed to bitch about high tabs for their expensive cars, high local taxes and tolls. I'm like... duh? Just like they went up in arms when the State came up with a 7% tax on capital gains *above $250k*.

It's unfair that people who make a lot less than I do have to pay the same exorbitant taxes on every bill (my water bill? $100 a month. $80 of that is local and county taxes and infrastructure, $17 is pipes, and $3 is actual consumption). I'd rather pay $x00 in income/CG taxes so everybody else can afford their utility bills.

And that, my friends, is a very unpopular opinion in my neck of the woods.

[RyanAtTanagra]

And that, my friends, is a very unpopular opinion in my neck of woods.

Heh, I was having a discussion with my sister about taxes and she went 'what, you want to pay MORE taxes?' expecting me to say 'no not myself', and I said 'yes, yes I do.  i should at my income level'.  End of conversation I seemed to have grown a second head or something.

Regarding the income-based fines, for the countries doing it, how do they figure out how much someone makes?  Previous year's tax would be easiest, but how do they handle a situation where someone made a lot last year, but now they're laid off and/or making a lot less?  I would love to see this method of fines implemented in America, but I can see it being a constant litigation of people saying the amount is wrong.

[Log]

And that, my friends, is a very unpopular opinion in my neck of woods.

Heh, I was having a discussion with my sister about taxes and she went 'what, you want to pay MORE taxes?' expecting me to say 'no not myself', and I said 'yes, yes I do.  i should at my income level'.  End of conversation I seemed to have grown a second head or something.

Regarding the income-based fines, for the countries doing it, how do they figure out how much someone makes?  Previous year's tax would be easiest, but how do they handle a situation where someone made a lot last year, but now they're laid off and/or making a lot less?  I would love to see this method of fines implemented in America, but I can see it being a constant litigation of people saying the amount is wrong.

Government is already capable of verifying people’s income changes mid-year for all sorts of reasons - people who lose their jobs just have to provide the proper documentation to qualify for Medicaid or SNAP or other means-tested benefits.

[Alternatepriorities]

To be fully effective it seems to me the fine would have to be the large amount of x% of income or y% of assets. I’ll leave if “y” should be 4% of “x” as exercise for the reader…

[midweststache]

And that, my friends, is a very unpopular opinion in my neck of woods.

Heh, I was having a discussion with my sister about taxes and she went 'what, you want to pay MORE taxes?' expecting me to say 'no not myself', and I said 'yes, yes I do.  i should at my income level'.  End of conversation I seemed to have grown a second head or something.

That is the same conversation I had with my dad earlier this year, who (jokingly) hissed at me and made the sign of the cross.

[Alfred J Quack]

And that, my friends, is a very unpopular opinion in my neck of woods.

Heh, I was having a discussion with my sister about taxes and she went 'what, you want to pay MORE taxes?' expecting me to say 'no not myself', and I said 'yes, yes I do.  i should at my income level'.  End of conversation I seemed to have grown a second head or something.

I had a kind of comparable conversation with my mum. Me and the missus paid of our mortgage, have 12 solar panels but that's still not enough for our full-electric houshold.
To mitigate our electric cost further we bought shares in a wind-farm and our net expenses on electric (including tax) were -600 or something last year because of a long running contract for electric while everyone around us was getting higher prices because of the world-wide gas-price going through the roof.

I know a colleague of mine has a charity to give a big group of minimum income families a christmas food package. Not the high and mighty stuff that's expensive but not very useful but the actual useful stuff. I donated a big part of my return to his charity.
I also learned that someone who I sold a tablet with a defective battery to, that he was autistic and in a program to get work experience with very little income. I gifted him the tablet and told him to do his best and let me know if he needs some more stuff to work or practice on.

I'm also supporting non-profits that support parents with children with Down's syndrome (because of our youngest), autistic people in general (because I'm autistic and so is my eldest), emotional support dogs for disabled people.

And at the end of the day I see I can get a big chunk of what I paid to alllll of those back from income tax. So I file my income tax and get a chunk back and use that to support the charities more next year. Life is strange sometimes...

[NorthernIkigai]

And that, my friends, is a very unpopular opinion in my neck of woods.

Regarding the income-based fines, for the countries doing it, how do they figure out how much someone makes?  Previous year's tax would be easiest, but how do they handle a situation where someone made a lot last year, but now they're laid off and/or making a lot less?  I would love to see this method of fines implemented in America, but I can see it being a constant litigation of people saying the amount is wrong.

Where I live, incomes are nowadays reported (by the employer) to the tax authorities on a monthly basis. Taxes and everything else to do with income can be very quickly adjusted when circumstances change. It also makes tax filing etc. very fast and simple.

I think if you get a fine like this (which I have no personal experience of), the police will ask you for your income level. Sometimes you hear of people having lied about their incomes in these situations, and then later gotten a very much higher fine for lying...

[NorthernIkigai]

To be fully effective it seems to me the fine would have to be the large amount of x% of income or y% of assets. I’ll leave if “y” should be 4% of “x” as exercise for the reader…

I'm looking forward to the blog on this! Hopefully it has at least 60 posts!

[NorthernIkigai]

And that, my friends, is a very unpopular opinion in my neck of woods.

Heh, I was having a discussion with my sister about taxes and she went 'what, you want to pay MORE taxes?' expecting me to say 'no not myself', and I said 'yes, yes I do.  i should at my income level'.  End of conversation I seemed to have grown a second head or something.

I had a kind of comparable conversation with my mum. Me and the missus paid of our mortgage, have 12 solar panels but that's still not enough for our full-electric houshold.
To mitigate our electric cost further we bought shares in a wind-farm and our net expenses on electric (including tax) were -600 or something last year because of a long running contract for electric while everyone around us was getting higher prices because of the world-wide gas-price going through the roof.

I know a colleague of mine has a charity to give a big group of minimum income families a christmas food package. Not the high and mighty stuff that's expensive but not very useful but the actual useful stuff. I donated a big part of my return to his charity.
I also learned that someone who I sold a tablet with a defective battery to, that he was autistic and in a program to get work experience with very little income. I gifted him the tablet and told him to do his best and let me know if he needs some more stuff to work or practice on.

I'm also supporting non-profits that support parents with children with Down's syndrome (because of our youngest), autistic people in general (because I'm autistic and so is my eldest), emotional support dogs for disabled people.

And at the end of the day I see I can get a big chunk of what I paid to alllll of those back from income tax. So I file my income tax and get a chunk back and use that to support the charities more next year. Life is strange sometimes...

I wouldn't equate a particular country's tax policies with life.

There's nothing natural about the way taxes or charity is organized in a particular society, although it may be so ingrained there that it seems natural and obvious. Sometimes I think the couple of taxation systems I have experience with should just be blown up and completely rebuilt. It's absurd how some things are incentivized and others nudged a bit but then you have to compensate it somewhere else, etc.

[LennStar]

I wouldn't equate a particular country's tax policies with life.

There's nothing natural about the way taxes or charity is organized in a particular society, although it may be so ingrained there that it seems natural and obvious. Sometimes I think the couple of taxation systems I have experience with should just be blown up and completely rebuilt. It's absurd how some things are incentivized and others nudged a bit but then you have to compensate it somewhere else, etc.

A long time ago in a Germany in the early 2000, a party did a big election campaign with "tax decleration on a beer mat" (right name? The small paper thing under the glass.)
Needless to say it never appeared. And I doubt people would have been so exited if they thought a few moments about it, since that of course means all the deductions etc. would no longer be there.

It's often so painful seeing people spout deep convictions based on non-thinking. Like "how hard did you try to not get this?"

[Psychstache]

I wouldn't equate a particular country's tax policies with life.

There's nothing natural about the way taxes or charity is organized in a particular society, although it may be so ingrained there that it seems natural and obvious. Sometimes I think the couple of taxation systems I have experience with should just be blown up and completely rebuilt. It's absurd how some things are incentivized and others nudged a bit but then you have to compensate it somewhere else, etc.

A long time ago in a Germany in the early 2000, a party did a big election campaign with "tax decleration on a beer mat" (right name? The small paper thing under the glass.)
Needless to say it never appeared. And I doubt people would have been so exited if they thought a few moments about it, since that of course means all the deductions etc. would no longer be there.

It's often so painful seeing people spout deep convictions based on non-thinking. Like "how hard did you try to not get this?"

Yeah, every few cycles in the US we would get some candidate claiming that they wanted to shrink tax forms down to the size of a postcard. Sounds great at a rally when everyone is trained to hate taxes, but complete nonsense when you spend more than 30 seconds thinking about how to implement it.

[grantmeaname]

You can like taxes and the society that they buy us and at the same time think that our tax system is poorly administered, cumbersome, and distortive. Simplifying the tax code can raise more taxes and make the filing, recordkeeping, and compliance burden lighter at the same time. The IRS direct file pilot is a small and overdue step in that direction, and the UK individual income tax system does not require filings at all for most people - I never filed in the five tax years I was there. Trump pushing the personal exemption into the standard deduction was another example that both raised revenue and simplified compliance for many taxpayers.

The toxic part is that most candidates on the red team say "the tax code should be simpler" when what they mean is "we should get rid of progressive tax brackets". Anyone with two brain cells who takes one minute to think about it will realize that the tax brackets are the easiest part of the tax code (you can literally run the math in one excel formula), and that the carveouts for special interests and the anti-abuse provisions are what adds all the complexity. But political candidates can count on half their audience welcoming the lie, and the other half never stopping to think about it.

[NorthernIkigai]

I wouldn't equate a particular country's tax policies with life.

There's nothing natural about the way taxes or charity is organized in a particular society, although it may be so ingrained there that it seems natural and obvious. Sometimes I think the couple of taxation systems I have experience with should just be blown up and completely rebuilt. It's absurd how some things are incentivized and others nudged a bit but then you have to compensate it somewhere else, etc.

A long time ago in a Germany in the early 2000, a party did a big election campaign with "tax decleration on a beer mat" (right name? The small paper thing under the glass.)
Needless to say it never appeared. And I doubt people would have been so exited if they thought a few moments about it, since that of course means all the deductions etc. would no longer be there.

It's often so painful seeing people spout deep convictions based on non-thinking. Like "how hard did you try to not get this?"

Yeah, every few cycles in the US we would get some candidate claiming that they wanted to shrink tax forms down to the size of a postcard. Sounds great at a rally when everyone is trained to hate taxes, but complete nonsense when you spend more than 30 seconds thinking about how to implement it.

Yeah, I wasn't quite suggesting beer mat or postcard level simplification :-D There's a big difference between simplifying and dumbing down! And I definitely don't hate taxes, although I do belong to an organization wanting to minimize taxes, but only because the magazine they send to their members is the best personal finance publication in my language. Their opinions, as most in my culture, are pretty mild and sensible.

But all those exemptions and exceptions to the exemptions and € limits which are then tweaked or not tweaked every year in some direction really don't make a lot of sense. They are meant to influence people's behaviour, but mostly confuse people and (in the previous country I was liable to pay tax in) often lead to people of all incomes having to pay someone to do their taxes for them, adding extra costs and probably not affecting behaviour as much as they were meant to do. Edit: And I'd also like to add that the yearly tweaks to the percentages and € amounts often stir up a weird amount of discussion and emotions among the public and even among those experts who for example write the magazine I mentioned above. I mean, I don't give a fuck whether I can deduct 40 or 50% of the cost of someone else washing my windows, that is NOT A BIG DEAL in the grand scheme of my budget, taxation, fighting the grey economy, who I'm going to vote for, or really anything. Yet an inordinate amount of time and oxygen is spent on debating whether 40 or 50 really is the correct percentage for this.

If a whole bunch of exemptions were scrapped, the general rates could be lowered. Then it's again a political question to determine for example at what slope the marginal tax rate goes up (quite steeply would be fine by me).

[Sibley]

In the US, the tax professionals want tax code reform/simplification. When the people who earn a living doing it want major changes to make it less complex, you know there are problems. This doesn't mean tax returns on a postcard (btw, Trump did that, but all it did was shift a bunch of stuff off the 1040 onto several other schedules that would need to be prepared and attached), it means getting into the nitty gritty of the tax code and making changes.

[grantmeaname]

Right, and each of the nitty gritty provisions to be scrapped is either there to prevent abuse and improve horizontal equity, or has a vocal and very motivated minority in favor of it (landlords, commodity funds, realtors, nonprofits, student lenders, billionaires with large estates).

[AMandM]

A long time ago in a Germany in the early 2000, a party did a big election campaign with "tax decleration on a beer mat" (right name? The small paper thing under the glass.)
Needless to say it never appeared. And I doubt people would have been so exited if they thought a few moments about it, since that of course means all the deductions etc. would no longer be there.

In the 1990s, the comic writer Dave Barry proposed his simplified tax form:
"Line 1: How much did you make last year?
 Line 2: Send it in."

[Michael in ABQ]

In the US, the tax professionals want tax code reform/simplification. When the people who earn a living doing it want major changes to make it less complex, you know there are problems. This doesn't mean tax returns on a postcard (btw, Trump did that, but all it did was shift a bunch of stuff off the 1040 onto several other schedules that would need to be prepared and attached), it means getting into the nitty gritty of the tax code and making changes.

Of course if you simplify it too much many of them would be out of a job.

Reminds me I need to reach out to my CPA now since she's usually so busy it takes a week or two (and a couple of calls/emails to her assistant) to actually get her on the phone.

[Psychstache]

I wouldn't equate a particular country's tax policies with life.

There's nothing natural about the way taxes or charity is organized in a particular society, although it may be so ingrained there that it seems natural and obvious. Sometimes I think the couple of taxation systems I have experience with should just be blown up and completely rebuilt. It's absurd how some things are incentivized and others nudged a bit but then you have to compensate it somewhere else, etc.

A long time ago in a Germany in the early 2000, a party did a big election campaign with "tax decleration on a beer mat" (right name? The small paper thing under the glass.)
Needless to say it never appeared. And I doubt people would have been so exited if they thought a few moments about it, since that of course means all the deductions etc. would no longer be there.

It's often so painful seeing people spout deep convictions based on non-thinking. Like "how hard did you try to not get this?"

Yeah, every few cycles in the US we would get some candidate claiming that they wanted to shrink tax forms down to the size of a postcard. Sounds great at a rally when everyone is trained to hate taxes, but complete nonsense when you spend more than 30 seconds thinking about how to implement it.

Yeah, I wasn't quite suggesting beer mat or postcard level simplification :-D There's a big difference between simplifying and dumbing down! And I definitely don't hate taxes, although I do belong to an organization wanting to minimize taxes, but only because the magazine they send to their members is the best personal finance publication in my language. Their opinions, as most in my culture, are pretty mild and sensible.

Oh, my intent was not to imply you thought it was a good idea, just that for a politician it makes for a great yelling point at a rally of people that already support you. I know that you, a handsome, distinguished gentleman of leisure, understand their is nuance to the art and science of taxation.

[Sibley]

In the US, the tax professionals want tax code reform/simplification. When the people who earn a living doing it want major changes to make it less complex, you know there are problems. This doesn't mean tax returns on a postcard (btw, Trump did that, but all it did was shift a bunch of stuff off the 1040 onto several other schedules that would need to be prepared and attached), it means getting into the nitty gritty of the tax code and making changes.

Of course if you simplify it too much many of them would be out of a job.

Reminds me I need to reach out to my CPA now since she's usually so busy it takes a week or two (and a couple of calls/emails to her assistant) to actually get her on the phone.

There are people, and a lot of them, who will pay someone to do their taxes no matter how easy it is. Plus then all the companies and people with complex situations.

However, the tax accountants I know (and I'm an accountant, I know multiple) would be quite happy to reduce the workload. There's a shortage in tax preparers overall and not enough people coming into the field to handle it. Thus why it takes a few weeks to get a response from your CPA.

[grantmeaname]

Not to mention how easily tax CPAs can lateral into so many other fields...

[Fresh Bread]

Not that I don't find tax codes riveting, but does anyone have an epic FU money story?

[SwordGuy]

Not that I don't find tax codes riveting, but does anyone have an epic FU money story?

Not really an FU story 'cause there's been no reason not to be polite, but I've turned down over half a dozen opportunities to start another business since I retired.   I don't need the money so I spend my time the way my wife and I want, not the way some customer wants it spent.

[Dicey]

Not that I don't find tax codes riveting, but does anyone have an epic FU money story?

Not really an FU story 'cause there's been no reason not to be polite, but I've turned down over half a dozen opportunities to start another business since I retired.   I don't need the money so I spend my time the way my wife and I want, not the way some customer wants it spent.

Boo-yah!

[Asalted_Nut]

Not in an FU sense but still something of a different angle from what I have seen, just inspired by the poster above mentioning turning down jobs in retirement:

A family member came to me the other day with a proposal that I take over their franchise when they retire. I'd helped them work on it in the past so I know an idea of what's involved and also how much money they ended up making once they were successful.

The franchise, if continuing to be successful (and I have imposter syndrome big time, so I'm not even sure I could keep it going), would general about 100k-200k gross. An enticing amount of money!

However thanks to MMM, and other financial forums, I realized that even though I am currently making sub-100k, it is a stable public-sector job with a solid pension, 457b, great health insurance plans, amazing supervisor and work-life balance, really generous time off, etc that I would be happy to continue until retirement with very little risk!

Oftentimes I think many people just look at the salary, but there can be other slightly less tangible benefits to a job that those not actively reading these types of forums may not think to count towards the benefit of their job. So maybe this is more of an FU knowledge, vs an FU money (but again not in an FU kind of way just the freedom to make decisions based not on money but what works best for our lives).

[RWTL]

Not in an FU sense but still something of a different angle from what I have seen, just inspired by the poster above mentioning turning down jobs in retirement:

A family member came to me the other day with a proposal that I take over their franchise when they retire. I'd helped them work on it in the past so I know an idea of what's involved and also how much money they ended up making once they were successful.

The franchise, if continuing to be successful (and I have imposter syndrome big time, so I'm not even sure I could keep it going), would general about 100k-200k gross. An enticing amount of money!

However thanks to MMM, and other financial forums, I realized that even though I am currently making sub-100k, it is a stable public-sector job with a solid pension, 457b, great health insurance plans, amazing supervisor and work-life balance, really generous time off, etc that I would be happy to continue until retirement with very little risk!

Oftentimes I think many people just look at the salary, but there can be other slightly less tangible benefits to a job that those not actively reading these types of forums may not think to count towards the benefit of their job. So maybe this is more of an FU knowledge, vs an FU money (but again not in an FU kind of way just the freedom to make decisions based not on money but what works best for our lives).

Absolutely right!  I had a professor say to us - "Would you rather have a 300K job that you're miserable in and would be fired in 3 years or a 100K job that you're happy with until retirement."  He never gave us the answer, but I knew my answer.

[hooplady]

The franchise, if continuing to be successful (and I have imposter syndrome big time, so I'm not even sure I could keep it going), would general about 100k-200k gross. An enticing amount of money!

Ohhhhh but gross is meaningless, the only thing that matters is net; that's what you need to compare to a salaried position (with all the benefits included) to have a true analysis.