Epic FU money stories

[LennStar]

I wouldn't equate a particular country's tax policies with life.

There's nothing natural about the way taxes or charity is organized in a particular society, although it may be so ingrained there that it seems natural and obvious. Sometimes I think the couple of taxation systems I have experience with should just be blown up and completely rebuilt. It's absurd how some things are incentivized and others nudged a bit but then you have to compensate it somewhere else, etc.

A long time ago in a Germany in the early 2000, a party did a big election campaign with "tax decleration on a beer mat" (right name? The small paper thing under the glass.)
Needless to say it never appeared. And I doubt people would have been so exited if they thought a few moments about it, since that of course means all the deductions etc. would no longer be there.

It's often so painful seeing people spout deep convictions based on non-thinking. Like "how hard did you try to not get this?"

[Psychstache]

I wouldn't equate a particular country's tax policies with life.

There's nothing natural about the way taxes or charity is organized in a particular society, although it may be so ingrained there that it seems natural and obvious. Sometimes I think the couple of taxation systems I have experience with should just be blown up and completely rebuilt. It's absurd how some things are incentivized and others nudged a bit but then you have to compensate it somewhere else, etc.

A long time ago in a Germany in the early 2000, a party did a big election campaign with "tax decleration on a beer mat" (right name? The small paper thing under the glass.)
Needless to say it never appeared. And I doubt people would have been so exited if they thought a few moments about it, since that of course means all the deductions etc. would no longer be there.

It's often so painful seeing people spout deep convictions based on non-thinking. Like "how hard did you try to not get this?"

Yeah, every few cycles in the US we would get some candidate claiming that they wanted to shrink tax forms down to the size of a postcard. Sounds great at a rally when everyone is trained to hate taxes, but complete nonsense when you spend more than 30 seconds thinking about how to implement it.

[grantmeaname]

You can like taxes and the society that they buy us and at the same time think that our tax system is poorly administered, cumbersome, and distortive. Simplifying the tax code can raise more taxes and make the filing, recordkeeping, and compliance burden lighter at the same time. The IRS direct file pilot is a small and overdue step in that direction, and the UK individual income tax system does not require filings at all for most people - I never filed in the five tax years I was there. Trump pushing the personal exemption into the standard deduction was another example that both raised revenue and simplified compliance for many taxpayers.

The toxic part is that most candidates on the red team say "the tax code should be simpler" when what they mean is "we should get rid of progressive tax brackets". Anyone with two brain cells who takes one minute to think about it will realize that the tax brackets are the easiest part of the tax code (you can literally run the math in one excel formula), and that the carveouts for special interests and the anti-abuse provisions are what adds all the complexity. But political candidates can count on half their audience welcoming the lie, and the other half never stopping to think about it.

[NorthernIkigai]

I wouldn't equate a particular country's tax policies with life.

There's nothing natural about the way taxes or charity is organized in a particular society, although it may be so ingrained there that it seems natural and obvious. Sometimes I think the couple of taxation systems I have experience with should just be blown up and completely rebuilt. It's absurd how some things are incentivized and others nudged a bit but then you have to compensate it somewhere else, etc.

A long time ago in a Germany in the early 2000, a party did a big election campaign with "tax decleration on a beer mat" (right name? The small paper thing under the glass.)
Needless to say it never appeared. And I doubt people would have been so exited if they thought a few moments about it, since that of course means all the deductions etc. would no longer be there.

It's often so painful seeing people spout deep convictions based on non-thinking. Like "how hard did you try to not get this?"

Yeah, every few cycles in the US we would get some candidate claiming that they wanted to shrink tax forms down to the size of a postcard. Sounds great at a rally when everyone is trained to hate taxes, but complete nonsense when you spend more than 30 seconds thinking about how to implement it.

Yeah, I wasn't quite suggesting beer mat or postcard level simplification :-D There's a big difference between simplifying and dumbing down! And I definitely don't hate taxes, although I do belong to an organization wanting to minimize taxes, but only because the magazine they send to their members is the best personal finance publication in my language. Their opinions, as most in my culture, are pretty mild and sensible.

But all those exemptions and exceptions to the exemptions and € limits which are then tweaked or not tweaked every year in some direction really don't make a lot of sense. They are meant to influence people's behaviour, but mostly confuse people and (in the previous country I was liable to pay tax in) often lead to people of all incomes having to pay someone to do their taxes for them, adding extra costs and probably not affecting behaviour as much as they were meant to do. Edit: And I'd also like to add that the yearly tweaks to the percentages and € amounts often stir up a weird amount of discussion and emotions among the public and even among those experts who for example write the magazine I mentioned above. I mean, I don't give a fuck whether I can deduct 40 or 50% of the cost of someone else washing my windows, that is NOT A BIG DEAL in the grand scheme of my budget, taxation, fighting the grey economy, who I'm going to vote for, or really anything. Yet an inordinate amount of time and oxygen is spent on debating whether 40 or 50 really is the correct percentage for this.

If a whole bunch of exemptions were scrapped, the general rates could be lowered. Then it's again a political question to determine for example at what slope the marginal tax rate goes up (quite steeply would be fine by me).

[Sibley]

In the US, the tax professionals want tax code reform/simplification. When the people who earn a living doing it want major changes to make it less complex, you know there are problems. This doesn't mean tax returns on a postcard (btw, Trump did that, but all it did was shift a bunch of stuff off the 1040 onto several other schedules that would need to be prepared and attached), it means getting into the nitty gritty of the tax code and making changes.

[grantmeaname]

Right, and each of the nitty gritty provisions to be scrapped is either there to prevent abuse and improve horizontal equity, or has a vocal and very motivated minority in favor of it (landlords, commodity funds, realtors, nonprofits, student lenders, billionaires with large estates).

[AMandM]

A long time ago in a Germany in the early 2000, a party did a big election campaign with "tax decleration on a beer mat" (right name? The small paper thing under the glass.)
Needless to say it never appeared. And I doubt people would have been so exited if they thought a few moments about it, since that of course means all the deductions etc. would no longer be there.

In the 1990s, the comic writer Dave Barry proposed his simplified tax form:
"Line 1: How much did you make last year?
 Line 2: Send it in."

[Michael in ABQ]

In the US, the tax professionals want tax code reform/simplification. When the people who earn a living doing it want major changes to make it less complex, you know there are problems. This doesn't mean tax returns on a postcard (btw, Trump did that, but all it did was shift a bunch of stuff off the 1040 onto several other schedules that would need to be prepared and attached), it means getting into the nitty gritty of the tax code and making changes.

Of course if you simplify it too much many of them would be out of a job.

Reminds me I need to reach out to my CPA now since she's usually so busy it takes a week or two (and a couple of calls/emails to her assistant) to actually get her on the phone.

[Psychstache]

I wouldn't equate a particular country's tax policies with life.

There's nothing natural about the way taxes or charity is organized in a particular society, although it may be so ingrained there that it seems natural and obvious. Sometimes I think the couple of taxation systems I have experience with should just be blown up and completely rebuilt. It's absurd how some things are incentivized and others nudged a bit but then you have to compensate it somewhere else, etc.

A long time ago in a Germany in the early 2000, a party did a big election campaign with "tax decleration on a beer mat" (right name? The small paper thing under the glass.)
Needless to say it never appeared. And I doubt people would have been so exited if they thought a few moments about it, since that of course means all the deductions etc. would no longer be there.

It's often so painful seeing people spout deep convictions based on non-thinking. Like "how hard did you try to not get this?"

Yeah, every few cycles in the US we would get some candidate claiming that they wanted to shrink tax forms down to the size of a postcard. Sounds great at a rally when everyone is trained to hate taxes, but complete nonsense when you spend more than 30 seconds thinking about how to implement it.

Yeah, I wasn't quite suggesting beer mat or postcard level simplification :-D There's a big difference between simplifying and dumbing down! And I definitely don't hate taxes, although I do belong to an organization wanting to minimize taxes, but only because the magazine they send to their members is the best personal finance publication in my language. Their opinions, as most in my culture, are pretty mild and sensible.

Oh, my intent was not to imply you thought it was a good idea, just that for a politician it makes for a great yelling point at a rally of people that already support you. I know that you, a handsome, distinguished gentleman of leisure, understand their is nuance to the art and science of taxation.

[Sibley]

In the US, the tax professionals want tax code reform/simplification. When the people who earn a living doing it want major changes to make it less complex, you know there are problems. This doesn't mean tax returns on a postcard (btw, Trump did that, but all it did was shift a bunch of stuff off the 1040 onto several other schedules that would need to be prepared and attached), it means getting into the nitty gritty of the tax code and making changes.

Of course if you simplify it too much many of them would be out of a job.

Reminds me I need to reach out to my CPA now since she's usually so busy it takes a week or two (and a couple of calls/emails to her assistant) to actually get her on the phone.

There are people, and a lot of them, who will pay someone to do their taxes no matter how easy it is. Plus then all the companies and people with complex situations.

However, the tax accountants I know (and I'm an accountant, I know multiple) would be quite happy to reduce the workload. There's a shortage in tax preparers overall and not enough people coming into the field to handle it. Thus why it takes a few weeks to get a response from your CPA.

[grantmeaname]

Not to mention how easily tax CPAs can lateral into so many other fields...

[Fresh Bread]

Not that I don't find tax codes riveting, but does anyone have an epic FU money story?

[SwordGuy]

Not that I don't find tax codes riveting, but does anyone have an epic FU money story?

Not really an FU story 'cause there's been no reason not to be polite, but I've turned down over half a dozen opportunities to start another business since I retired.   I don't need the money so I spend my time the way my wife and I want, not the way some customer wants it spent.

[Dicey]

Not that I don't find tax codes riveting, but does anyone have an epic FU money story?

Not really an FU story 'cause there's been no reason not to be polite, but I've turned down over half a dozen opportunities to start another business since I retired.   I don't need the money so I spend my time the way my wife and I want, not the way some customer wants it spent.

Boo-yah!

[Asalted_Nut]

Not in an FU sense but still something of a different angle from what I have seen, just inspired by the poster above mentioning turning down jobs in retirement:

A family member came to me the other day with a proposal that I take over their franchise when they retire. I'd helped them work on it in the past so I know an idea of what's involved and also how much money they ended up making once they were successful.

The franchise, if continuing to be successful (and I have imposter syndrome big time, so I'm not even sure I could keep it going), would general about 100k-200k gross. An enticing amount of money!

However thanks to MMM, and other financial forums, I realized that even though I am currently making sub-100k, it is a stable public-sector job with a solid pension, 457b, great health insurance plans, amazing supervisor and work-life balance, really generous time off, etc that I would be happy to continue until retirement with very little risk!

Oftentimes I think many people just look at the salary, but there can be other slightly less tangible benefits to a job that those not actively reading these types of forums may not think to count towards the benefit of their job. So maybe this is more of an FU knowledge, vs an FU money (but again not in an FU kind of way just the freedom to make decisions based not on money but what works best for our lives).

[RWTL]

Not in an FU sense but still something of a different angle from what I have seen, just inspired by the poster above mentioning turning down jobs in retirement:

A family member came to me the other day with a proposal that I take over their franchise when they retire. I'd helped them work on it in the past so I know an idea of what's involved and also how much money they ended up making once they were successful.

The franchise, if continuing to be successful (and I have imposter syndrome big time, so I'm not even sure I could keep it going), would general about 100k-200k gross. An enticing amount of money!

However thanks to MMM, and other financial forums, I realized that even though I am currently making sub-100k, it is a stable public-sector job with a solid pension, 457b, great health insurance plans, amazing supervisor and work-life balance, really generous time off, etc that I would be happy to continue until retirement with very little risk!

Oftentimes I think many people just look at the salary, but there can be other slightly less tangible benefits to a job that those not actively reading these types of forums may not think to count towards the benefit of their job. So maybe this is more of an FU knowledge, vs an FU money (but again not in an FU kind of way just the freedom to make decisions based not on money but what works best for our lives).

Absolutely right!  I had a professor say to us - "Would you rather have a 300K job that you're miserable in and would be fired in 3 years or a 100K job that you're happy with until retirement."  He never gave us the answer, but I knew my answer.

[hooplady]

The franchise, if continuing to be successful (and I have imposter syndrome big time, so I'm not even sure I could keep it going), would general about 100k-200k gross. An enticing amount of money!

Ohhhhh but gross is meaningless, the only thing that matters is net; that's what you need to compare to a salaried position (with all the benefits included) to have a true analysis.

[RetiredAt63]

The franchise, if continuing to be successful (and I have imposter syndrome big time, so I'm not even sure I could keep it going), would general about 100k-200k gross. An enticing amount of money!

Ohhhhh but gross is meaningless, the only thing that matters is net; that's what you need to compare to a salaried position (with all the benefits included) to have a true analysis.

And won't there be some things that you will be paying for twice - like the employee's share and the employer's share?

[Taran Wanderer]

Sub-100k job… let’s say 90k.

90k + 6k employer FICA + 18k employer-provided health care + 4k employer 403/457 match + 12k employer pension contribution + vacation + holidays + sick time = 130k plus the time off.

100k to 200k gross - expenses - time off could actually end up looking a lot worse than the current job.

[lhamo]

Sub-100k job… let’s say 90k.

90k + 6k employer FICA + 18k employer-provided health care + 4k employer 403/457 match + 12k employer pension contribution + vacation + holidays + sick time = 130k plus the time off.

100k to 200k gross - expenses - time off could actually end up looking a lot worse than the current job.

Not to mention that 457b option -- what is the annual cap on what you can throw in there?  457b accounts are AMAZING buckets for those who wish to FIRE to have access to.  You get the benefits of a tax deferred savings account without the restrictions of a 401k.  Much easier to access the money penalty free when you decide to leave employment.  If it were me, I'd focus on maxing out those accounts as a sabbatical/trial FIRE fund. 

[Asalted_Nut]

Sub-100k job… let’s say 90k.

90k + 6k employer FICA + 18k employer-provided health care + 4k employer 403/457 match + 12k employer pension contribution + vacation + holidays + sick time = 130k plus the time off.

100k to 200k gross - expenses - time off could actually end up looking a lot worse than the current job.

Not to mention that 457b option -- what is the annual cap on what you can throw in there?  457b accounts are AMAZING buckets for those who wish to FIRE to have access to.  You get the benefits of a tax deferred savings account without the restrictions of a 401k.  Much easier to access the money penalty free when you decide to leave employment.  If it were me, I'd focus on maxing out those accounts as a sabbatical/trial FIRE fund.

So a 457 account limit is the same as a 401k. And, not really pertinent to my salary level at this point, but we also have access to a 403b as well, with a separate limit, so assuming one had the means and the interest they could max both 457 and 403b, though the 403b is just as restricted as a 501k from my understanding. But yes to all of the above! As I have worked here and leaned more, the  value of all the non-salary benefits just can’t be understated.

[ditheca]

Heh, I was having a discussion with my sister about taxes and she went 'what, you want to pay MORE taxes?' expecting me to say 'no not myself', and I said 'yes, yes I do.  i should at my income level'.  End of conversation I seemed to have grown a second head or something.

Regarding the income-based fines, for the countries doing it, how do they figure out how much someone makes?  Previous year's tax would be easiest, but how do they handle a situation where someone made a lot last year, but now they're laid off and/or making a lot less?  I would love to see this method of fines implemented in America, but I can see it being a constant litigation of people saying the amount is wrong.

I have an unimpressive salary and a stay-at-home wife. We live simply and invest in a boring index fund. Our net worth is in the top 10% of Americans (in our age bracket). Why am I barely required to pay taxes!?

If the top 10% don't pay income tax, then who does? Is the entire government funded by nothing but debt and promises?

[geekette]

I have an unimpressive salary and a stay-at-home wife. We live simply and invest in a boring index fund. Our net worth is in the top 10% of Americans (in our age bracket). Why am I barely required to pay taxes!?

If the top 10% don't pay income tax, then who does? Is the entire government funded by nothing but debt and promises?

We generally pay taxes on income, not net worth. 

NC used to have an intangibles tax on savings, stocks, bonds, and, my father joked, the change in your pocket.  Now that was a tax on (not just) the wealthy.  They did some funny stuff exempting investments in NC companies and companies doing business in the state, and it was struck down in '95.

[Zamboni]

Is the entire government funded by nothing but debt and promises?

At this point, yes, at least at the federal level.

[JGS1980]

Easy to fix if there were some political will, but politicians follow the money.

Corporation profits used to be taxed significantly and their tax proceeds covered over 40% of the yearly federal income.

The proceeds, after 75 years of lobbying, lawmaking, and donating, is now less than 15%.

https://www.nationalpriorities.org/analysis/2014/presidents-2015-budget-in-pictures/individual-and-corporate-income-taxes-percent-total-federal-revenue/

Super rich folks also lobby to decrease their taxes, and poor people have very little income to tax in the first place. Guess who makes up the difference?

[LennStar]

Is the entire government funded by nothing but debt and promises?

At this point, yes, at least at the federal level.

FunFact: The British Pound is based on a loan to the king. If the royal head ever get's into his to repay all those 178 million pounds, the British currency would theoretically be worthless.

Every dollar debt is a dollar wealth. Every dollar wealth is a dollar debt. Without debt no wealth and without weath no debt.
The question is only who has what.
The rich people get richer and the poor get poorer. For at least 4000 years that was solved by regular debt forgiveness or widespread destruction in a war. Choose what you like more.
Or fucking start to tax the rich again instad of the poor.

[grantmeaname]

None of that follows at all. There are plenty of forms of wealth that are not debt, and you can build wealth without debt. This is just a word salad.

[Michael in ABQ]

Heh, I was having a discussion with my sister about taxes and she went 'what, you want to pay MORE taxes?' expecting me to say 'no not myself', and I said 'yes, yes I do.  i should at my income level'.  End of conversation I seemed to have grown a second head or something.

Regarding the income-based fines, for the countries doing it, how do they figure out how much someone makes?  Previous year's tax would be easiest, but how do they handle a situation where someone made a lot last year, but now they're laid off and/or making a lot less?  I would love to see this method of fines implemented in America, but I can see it being a constant litigation of people saying the amount is wrong.

I have an unimpressive salary and a stay-at-home wife. We live simply and invest in a boring index fund. Our net worth is in the top 10% of Americans (in our age bracket). Why am I barely required to pay taxes!?

If the top 10% don't pay income tax, then who does? Is the entire government funded by nothing but debt and promises?

I think you answered your own question. Income taxes are a tax on income, not wealth.

You can have an incredibly high income and no wealth, or a high wealth and no income. Aside from property taxes it's very difficult to tax wealth.

[LennStar]

You mean it's politically very difficult, since the ones with much money are the ones with much power. Mathematically it's not that hard. 

[Dicey]

Are we fresh out of Epic FU Money stories?

[NorthernIkigai]

Are we fresh out of Epic FU Money stories?

Sure seems like it... I just met my new manager yesterday (my organization is adding a layer of middle management, weirdly), and he seemed very nice. Good for me, bad for this thread.

[Tempname23]

I like both of these thoughts and might even modify the first quote to "...most emergencies just become a non-issue."   We've had a number of things come up that I've just shrugged and said, "Ok." when perhaps in my 20's or 30's it would have been anxiety provoking.

A few hours after posting this, I had a real life example.  I large tree branch fell on the roof of my truck, putting several large (2 fists wide) dents in it.  I was disappointed, but I have the $500 that will cover my insurance deductible and I can drive it.  No real anxiety.

 Last week we had a severe storm and probably a tornado, lost our carport, damage to 6 sticks of vinyl siding on the sheshed and I broken window on my shed. Soffit and fascia needed repair along with several pieces of trim to repair or replace. Two cracked windshields and other damage. With the insurance situation in Florida and if I DIY the repairs it's under $5k. I will not be making a claim on my insurance. Yep, no financial concern.

[Tempname23]

There are people, and a lot of them, who will pay someone to do their taxes no matter how easy it is. Plus then all the companies and people with complex situations.

 A few years ago I purged records I held for 40+ years. In it, I found an H&R Block Tax prep from when I was 15, I had earned $300 and paid $3 to have my taxes filed!

[Tempname23]

You mean it's politically very difficult, since the ones with much money are the ones with much power. Mathematically it's not that hard.

 Taxing wealth would be very detrimental for FIRE! Can you imaging paying 12%, 22%, or even 24% of tax on your net worth each year, you would never make it to FIRE.
  Also, My wife and I earned way less then about half the population, yet we saved and invested our way to the top 5% over a 36 year period. Now you want to punish us for doing what I think is the right thing?  I'll be countering your vote!
Not having our wealth taxed is the only way for the middle class to get ahead.

[NorthernIkigai]

You mean it's politically very difficult, since the ones with much money are the ones with much power. Mathematically it's not that hard.

 Taxing wealth would be very detrimental for FIRE! Can you imaging paying 12%, 22%, or even 24% of tax on your net worth each year, you would never make it to FIRE.
  Also, My wife and I earned way less then about half the population, yet we saved and invested our way to the top 5% over a 36 year period. Now you want to punish us for doing what I think is the right thing?  I'll be countering your vote!
Not having our wealth taxed is the only way for the middle class to get ahead.

At least in the countries where I've read about (current or former) wealth tax policies, it has never, ever been figures like those. More like +-1% or possibly low single figures, depending on a lot of factors.

[alcon835]

FU story is in progress, so we'll see how things work out, but since I've got one brewing and this thread has gone off the rails a bit, let's do this!!!

I am one of the most highly performing people in my organization. I also am one of the more tenured for my start-up (5 years). I was the first person hired for my department and I built and nurtured it to an almost 40 person team. By every metric they measure the success of my role and my department, I am the top. Additionally, due to how early I joined, I am one of the more influential people in the company at, really, all levels. I regularly meet with entry level folks to keep a beat on what is going on and to provide mentorship. I'm regularly asked to come by the CEO's and other execs offices to give updates and feedback from my perspective (and I am 3 levels below him now but reported to him when I started). All to say, when something needs to get done I am usually the best equipped to do it and when I ask for things I usually get them.

Well this year I asked for something my boss didn't want to give.

2020-2023 have been hard. For everyone, and definitely for me. I think I may have PTSD from it all? I lost a lot of things. People I loved died. I lost relationships I've had for years. I learned some terrible things about people I built my life around and it shook my entire identity. Compounding these problems 2023 was the hardest year of my career workwise.  They asked me to do more than I've ever done and it had me burning the wick at both ends. Even so, I succeeded at work and I'll be ending our fiscal year on January 31st as the most successful person in my org.

I came to the realization I was burned out in the fall, so after thinking about my options, I reached out to my boss at Halloween and asked him for a sabbatical. I told him this was very important to me, that I needed it for personal reasons, and I am burning out. Ideally it would be Two months in 2024, (I asked for March and April). Him and I talked about it a bit and he was positive about it overall and we started spit balling ideas on what this could look like. He even pitched the idea we could offer sabbaticals to longer term employees as a benefit for retention. He asked to think about how to present it up to the business and then would get back to me after talking to his boss and HR. We had time. They spoke a few times, he did some kind of research (not sure what) and in December my boss and my bosses boss met to talk through it all. There were some miscommunications on what I was asking for, so I corrected those. We talked through it a bit more and then they said they would raise the flag internally and get back to me in a few days.

Well, the next day (Friday) my boss schedules a meeting and opens with, "this will probably be the most one sided conversations we'll ever have." he then proceeds to tell me "I don't like the precedent a sabbatical sets for the team, so I am personally not going to let you do it and I have the ability to do that here." He then explained how difficult it would be to lose me for two months and that he couldn't approve it or allow his boss to push the request up the chain. At one point he told me, "If this means you'll quit, then there's the door." he spent the rest of the call explaining his perspective on all the great reasons to keep working at my current job.

He has never asked me once why I am looking for a sabbatical. I have offered a few times to talk about it in more detail, but he wasn't very interested in my purpose for the ask. I need a life reset if I'm going to be happy. My wife, my family, my friends, my mental health, my physical health...they all need a reset.

Just before all this, I was offered a retention bonus by the company. I rejected it and had to reach out to HR directly to let them know I was not signing. I told my boss 'no' to the retention bonus and he didn't bubble that up, I guess.

Anyway, over Christmas I took some extra time off and did the math. Thanks to my current stashe and some savings the wife and I were building that we can repurpose, I can live for 9 months without a paycheck or needing to dip into investments. By the end of February, I should be able to pay all my expenses for 12 months from cash in my HYSA alone. So that's what I'm going to do. I'm saving for the next two months until I hit my savings goal and then I am going to quit my job. I fully expect multiple executives to try and retain me once I put in my notice, but at this point it is too late. As they say, you don't leave bad companies, just bad bosses.

What is unfortunate about all of this, overall I like my boss. He just has a terrible view on work/life balance. I don't think I've ever seen him not working while on vacation, which is frustrating. I am not surprised he would do this, but I did figure his boss would say something due to my success and role in the organization.

A friend of mine, when I told her the story, asked, "what do they think you are going to do with that answer? Did they actually think you wouldn't just quit and take the sabbatical on your own?" And, I think that's exactly what they think - at least my boss. Or they thought I would leave immediately? I am not sure.

So here we are, January 16th, about 45-60 days away from turning in my notice. I'll keep y'all updated as things start to happen.

[NorthernIkigai]

Well, your boss is about to set a whole different kind of precedent that the one he wanted to avoid. Congrats to you on making a bold and clearly very healthy decision!

I also have no idea what anyone would expect to achieve with some of the word choices in that call... So adversarial! And just overall weird.

[kina]

So, you're much too valuable for them to do without for 2 months, but not forever? Oy!

[LennStar]

You mean it's politically very difficult, since the ones with much money are the ones with much power. Mathematically it's not that hard.

 Taxing wealth would be very detrimental for FIRE! Can you imaging paying 12%, 22%, or even 24% of tax on your net worth each year, you would never make it to FIRE.
  Also, My wife and I earned way less then about half the population, yet we saved and invested our way to the top 5% over a 36 year period. Now you want to punish us for doing what I think is the right thing?  I'll be countering your vote!
Not having our wealth taxed is the only way for the middle class to get ahead.

First of all Nobody, not even the Communist Party talk about those numbers. I think they wanted 2%. Mostly it's 1%.
Which means for someone FIRE'd, that's about 3 years longer working (appreciation, 4% rule, tax free base income...).

And "no taxes" is not a way for the middle class, because the middle class will have to pay more from their wealth just for basic life cost.

So here we are, January 16th, about 45-60 days away from turning in my notice. I'll keep y'all updated as things start to happen.

Do that!

Is there interest from your side joining the company again? Maybe not under this boss? Or at a somewhat reduced workload (which is unlikely I assume)?
Because if you drop the ball, as you said, there will be panic. And you will be in a really really good bargain position.
Think about what could keep you there (after your sabbatical of course). If you still don't like it after half a year, you can always search for a new job starting next year after all (and make another longer break before that).

[JLee]

You mean it's politically very difficult, since the ones with much money are the ones with much power. Mathematically it's not that hard.

 Taxing wealth would be very detrimental for FIRE! Can you imaging paying 12%, 22%, or even 24% of tax on your net worth each year, you would never make it to FIRE.
  Also, My wife and I earned way less then about half the population, yet we saved and invested our way to the top 5% over a 36 year period. Now you want to punish us for doing what I think is the right thing?  I'll be countering your vote!
Not having our wealth taxed is the only way for the middle class to get ahead.

Can you imagine paying 24, 32, 35, or even 37% of tax on your income each year? How would you even survive with a normal income?  ;)

Nobody is talking about taxing everyone's net worth at 10%+.  Warren's wealth tax proposal has zero additional tax on any household with a net worth of less than $50 million, a 2% annual tax on household net worth between $50 million and $1 billion, and an additional 4% for net worth above $1 billion.

Given a 4% SWR on $50 mil comes to a cool two million dollars a year, I think everybody on this forum would be just fine.

[erp]

There is actually one very common wealth tax in the US (and elsewhere): property & real estate taxes. A percentage of the value of the property which is assessed and taxed is definitely a wealth tax. Arguably, you get lots of value for that tax (infrastructure, neighbourhoods, other people, etc.) but that doesn't change what it is.

I mention this only because it shows that it's politically possible to have wealth taxes, we just don't have a culture of taxing non-real estate wealth (I also tend to think that a wealth tax would almost certainly be deeply distortionary and that while it might be theoretically valuable it'd be almost impossible to execute well).

[FIPurpose]

I think it would be easier to just tax low-interest debt so that the super wealthy can't hide behind loans to avoid capital gains.

Anyone with over 50MM in personal loans at an interest rate lower than US treasury should pay taxes on their loans. Taxes too high on a loan? KK just sell your stock then.

[alcon835]

So here we are, January 16th, about 45-60 days away from turning in my notice. I'll keep y'all updated as things start to happen.

Do that!

Is there interest from your side joining the company again? Maybe not under this boss? Or at a somewhat reduced workload (which is unlikely I assume)?
Because if you drop the ball, as you said, there will be panic. And you will be in a really really good bargain position.
Think about what could keep you there (after your sabbatical of course). If you still don't like it after half a year, you can always search for a new job starting next year after all (and make another longer break before that).

I could be open to it. I'm interested to see what they offer me (if anything) when I turn in my notice.

[iluvzbeach]

@alcon835, when you submit your notice make sure to start the conversation with your boss with “This is actually the most one-sided conversation we’ll ever have…”

Before you submit notice, is there any chance the current state of your mental health would warrant short-term disability leave?

[mm1970]

Well, your boss is about to set a whole different kind of precedent that the one he wanted to avoid. Congrats to you on making a bold and clearly very healthy decision!

I also have no idea what anyone would expect to achieve with some of the word choices in that call... So adversarial! And just overall weird.

Yep.  What a dodo.

@alcon835, when you submit your notice make sure to start the conversation with your boss with “This is actually the most one-sided conversation we’ll ever have…”

Before you submit notice, is there any chance the current state of your mental health would warrant short-term disability leave?

Snerk.  Do that.

My DH's first job after grad school, at the one year point, he got a raise.  Before the raise, I did some research online about what the going salary was for his level.  (He was not young - in addition to a PhD, he had 5 years of military officer experience).

The boss gave him a substandard raise, DH countered with the info I had collected.  The boss got snippy and said "well you are welcome to leave".  (Next morning, boss came back with 2x the raise.)

I think "there's the door" is a weird flex.  I can't wait to see the result.

[RyanAtTanagra]

Can you go above your boss to hand in your notice, and tell them why?  It sounds like they weren't aware of this conversation, and might be interested to hear it from a perspective that won't be your boss's.  And tell them that after your two months, you'd be more than happy to come back, provided your new role has you reporting to your boss's boss directly?

[AMandM]

So, you're much too valuable for them to do without for 2 months, but not forever? Oy!

Yeah, I love how his reason for not negotiating is an admission that you hold all the cards in this negotiation.

[AO1FireTo]

So, you're much too valuable for them to do without for 2 months, but not forever? Oy!

Yeah, I love how his reason for not negotiating is an admission that you hold all the cards in this negotiation.

Seems to me you are missing an opportunity.  Why not go above your boss to someone you trust and say, I'd like a two month sabbatical, I was told it wasn't possible.  I wanted to have a chat with you before I hand in my formal resignation.  You have nothing to lose.

[Dicey]

@alcon835, when you submit your notice make sure to start the conversation with your boss with “This is actually the most one-sided conversation we’ll ever have…”

Before you submit notice, is there any chance the current state of your mental health would warrant short-term disability leave?

+2. Please keep us updated as things happen. Good for you for deciphering what you need most right now.

Also, thanks for the valiant attempt to get this thread back on track. [Dicey gives @LennStar the stinkeye.]

[NorthernIkigai]

So, you're much too valuable for them to do without for 2 months, but not forever? Oy!

Yeah, I love how his reason for not negotiating is an admission that you hold all the cards in this negotiation.

Seems to me you are missing an opportunity.  Why not go above your boss to someone you trust and say, I'd like a two month sabbatical, I was told it wasn't possible.  I wanted to have a chat with you before I hand in my formal resignation.  You have nothing to lose.

In theory, this is the correct answer. In practice, it may lead to the boss feeling butthurt about having been overruled, and making your life miserable once you’re back from your sabbatical. Or even the company being the one making your life miserable later, since you’ve made it clear to them that one of their managers can’t manage and thereby somehow undermined their authority and structures. People can be very strange when they have effectively been outplayed.

Simply resigning now and then possibly returning later with a clean slate (and maybe to the team of a different manager…) is ”cleaner” in terms of office politics.