Epic FU money stories

[Laura33]

Here's my read between the lines on this.

Could be a short sighted 'building must be full at all times to justify the cost' thing, but my guess is it is more of a:

How is this person getting more done in 3/4th time than most of our FTEs I am?  It's making the other FTEs me look bad!

The bean counter side should be thrilled at getting FTE type effectiveness from 3/4th pay, so that's what has me leaning towards another reason for the stupidity.

FTFY

[Turtle]

Here's my read between the lines on this.

Could be a short sighted 'building must be full at all times to justify the cost' thing, but my guess is it is more of a:

How is this person getting more done in 3/4th time than most of our FTEs I am?  It's making the other FTEs me look bad!

The bean counter side should be thrilled at getting FTE type effectiveness from 3/4th pay, so that's what has me leaning towards another reason for the stupidity.

FTFY

Ha!  Yes.  ;-)

[Simpli-Fi]

@Simpli-Fi   sure, you should give (not submit) them the exit survey.  Your post above is clear and well written, so you could append a redacted version of your post to the exit interview form to flesh out your reasoning for your still-epic low key FU.

I ended up submitting the survey.  I fed the questions and my original answers into chatGPT then asked it to make me sound more sincere, with a little editing/deleting I think the tone and delivery will have a better shot at being received.

I can breathe a little easier and think more clearly today!

[Catbert]

@Simpli-Fi   sure, you should give (not submit) them the exit survey.  Your post above is clear and well written, so you could append a redacted version of your post to the exit interview form to flesh out your reasoning for your still-epic low key FU.

I ended up submitting the survey.  I fed the questions and my original answers into chatGPT then asked it to make me sound more sincere, with a little editing/deleting I think the tone and delivery will have a better shot at being received.

I can breathe a little easier and think more clearly today!

chatGPT is sounds more sincere than a human?  Now that's some AI I can use.

[merula]

chatGPT is sounds more sincere than a human?  Now that's some AI I can use.

Can confirm! One of my first uses of ChatGPT was to ask it to compose a condolences text because some people I really disliked had died. (These were family-of-family that I had known tangentially, they were actively cruel to me as a child and then turned MAGA. I am not sorry they're gone, but people I care about were mourning, so I felt like I had to say something.) It needed some tweaking but was overall pretty good.

[SwordGuy]

chatGPT is sounds more sincere than a human?  Now that's some AI I can use.

Can confirm! One of my first uses of ChatGPT was to ask it to compose a condolences text because some people I really disliked had died. (These were family-of-family that I had known tangentially, they were actively cruel to me as a child and then turned MAGA. I am not sorry they're gone, but people I care about were mourning, so I felt like I had to say something.) It needed some tweaking but was overall pretty good.

Not sure "sincere" was the word you were looking for.

It sounds like a sincere comment would have been, "Good riddance to bad rubbish."

Perhaps the word you were looking for was "comforting", not "sincere", as in:

chatGPT sounds more comforting than human me could manage.

[AlanStache]

chatGPT is sounds more sincere than a human?  Now that's some AI I can use.

Can confirm! One of my first uses of ChatGPT was to ask it to compose a condolences text because some people I really disliked had died. (These were family-of-family that I had known tangentially, they were actively cruel to me as a child and then turned MAGA. I am not sorry they're gone, but people I care about were mourning, so I felt like I had to say something.) It needed some tweaking but was overall pretty good.

Not sure "sincere" was the word you were looking for.

It sounds like a sincere comment would have been, "Good riddance to bad rubbish."

Perhaps the word you were looking for was "comforting", not "sincere", as in:

chatGPT sounds more comforting than human me could manage.

When a specific family member passes and if I feel obliged to write to common family I could see what human me writes being a bit sarcastic.  But I do care about the common family and they know about my issues with the specific person and editing your own written language can be hard as well as to judge tone in it.  In the end a "Sorry for your loss" when informed of a close relatives passing probably says most all of it. 

wrt ChatGPT - I was partly stuck on a programing puzzle problem today and it solved it without issue and I learned a new technique.  In other instances I have seen ChatGPT programming code be 'not even wrong'.  But for editing my English writing it has every time done a good job cleaning it up. 

[Turtle]

This past weekend I learned of a potentially Epic FU story brewing within my extended family.

Backstory:  Eldest nephew got his Associates Degree in May 2020 and decided not to transfer to a 4 year school right away because he didn't want to be taking online courses while paying on campus level tuition.  That summer he was promoted to entry level management at the big box store where he worked.  Still lived at home, low expenses, saved a bunch of money so he'd be able to pay cash whenever he went back for his degree.

He starts looking around his company and realizes that there are opportunities to move up the ladder if he's willing to move geographically.   So he applies for and receives a promotion to go to a store near where his other grandparents live, stays with them for a while, and then gets another promotion in that geographic area.

At that point, he decides he's fine with moving around if that gets him up the ladder, and he takes another promotion that puts him in a big city almost a day's drive away.  All is going great, he can put in for another promotion after he's been there a year, and he's eligible to start training for the next level about 9 months after the transfer.

Except there's a manager in his chain who was replaced about 4-5 months ago, and the new guy has a reputation for never letting anyone transfer out.  He knows my nephew makes his store look good and he wants to keep his claws in.  This guy is blocking my nephew from starting training for the next level.  Other stores are actively recruiting my nephew to transfer to them for promotions, but without an overrule from corporate, he won't be allowed to do that.

Nephew is a young guy with no kids, no mortgage, no local family where he currently is.  In fact, he's even young enough to go back on his parent's health insurance still.  This company doesn't even have any golden handcuffs besides annual bonuses.  All that the idiot upper management guy should already have access to know.  What he may not know on top of that is that nephew has a much bigger emergency fund than people twice his age and this may be the push he needs to go back to being a college student and finish his Bachelors degree.

Update to this one.  Eldest nephew has given notice and is starting back to college this month.  No word yet on the reaction he got when he turned in said notice.

Thanks to getting together at Christmas, I have an even better additional update to this one.  Turns out that instead of completely giving notice, my nephew stepped down to being part-time, lower level employee at the store near where he's going to school. 

The key benefit this gives him is that profit sharing is based on total number of years there, and total earnings for the year.  So he's going to get a profit sharing bonus check next month that's going to be based on full time salary for 2/3rds of the year plus whatever he's earned part time since then.  I'm sure his situation wasn't one that the corporate benefits person had in mind when coming up with the employee retention/profit sharing plan.

[mistymoney]

Some people just can't stand the idea of another person's happiness and boundaries.

The educator John Holt said that his hardest life lesson was accepting that people will refuse to improve their lives. If you say, "Look, I lost my chains, here's how you can lose yours!" their response is, "Huh, so you think you're better than the rest of us? You're too good for chains, is that it?"

I think that's just part of the general aversion of change. The more important the change, the harder is the resistance.

Change is hard. It’s much easier to whine and complain, and blame others for the problems rather than trying to better the situation or find a solution.

These are not mutually exclusive, lol! I like to whine and complain while I work on bettering my situation.......

[AMandM]

@Turtle what an encouraging update! Thank you!

[RWTL]

This past weekend I learned of a potentially Epic FU story brewing within my extended family.

Backstory:  Eldest nephew got his Associates Degree in May 2020 and decided not to transfer to a 4 year school right away because he didn't want to be taking online courses while paying on campus level tuition.  That summer he was promoted to entry level management at the big box store where he worked.  Still lived at home, low expenses, saved a bunch of money so he'd be able to pay cash whenever he went back for his degree.

He starts looking around his company and realizes that there are opportunities to move up the ladder if he's willing to move geographically.   So he applies for and receives a promotion to go to a store near where his other grandparents live, stays with them for a while, and then gets another promotion in that geographic area.

At that point, he decides he's fine with moving around if that gets him up the ladder, and he takes another promotion that puts him in a big city almost a day's drive away.  All is going great, he can put in for another promotion after he's been there a year, and he's eligible to start training for the next level about 9 months after the transfer.

Except there's a manager in his chain who was replaced about 4-5 months ago, and the new guy has a reputation for never letting anyone transfer out.  He knows my nephew makes his store look good and he wants to keep his claws in.  This guy is blocking my nephew from starting training for the next level.  Other stores are actively recruiting my nephew to transfer to them for promotions, but without an overrule from corporate, he won't be allowed to do that.

Nephew is a young guy with no kids, no mortgage, no local family where he currently is.  In fact, he's even young enough to go back on his parent's health insurance still.  This company doesn't even have any golden handcuffs besides annual bonuses.  All that the idiot upper management guy should already have access to know.  What he may not know on top of that is that nephew has a much bigger emergency fund than people twice his age and this may be the push he needs to go back to being a college student and finish his Bachelors degree.

Update to this one.  Eldest nephew has given notice and is starting back to college this month.  No word yet on the reaction he got when he turned in said notice.

Thanks to getting together at Christmas, I have an even better additional update to this one.  Turns out that instead of completely giving notice, my nephew stepped down to being part-time, lower level employee at the store near where he's going to school. 

The key benefit this gives him is that profit sharing is based on total number of years there, and total earnings for the year.  So he's going to get a profit sharing bonus check next month that's going to be based on full time salary for 2/3rds of the year plus whatever he's earned part time since then.  I'm sure his situation wasn't one that the corporate benefits person had in mind when coming up with the employee retention/profit sharing plan.

That kid has a bright future ahead of him.  Good on him.

[Turtle]

All my brother's kids are bright, but his eldest is particularly ambitious.  He's got no problem with seeing what needs to be done and delegating appropriately, to the point where I doubt anyone who ever reported to him while he was climbing the management ladder had any idea how young he was. 

At one point the grandkids' topic of conversation turned to 401k/IRA, stock market, etc which kind of blew my brother's mind.  He mentioned that we'd never talked about that growing up, which is true.  Our dad has a military pension, our mother had a government one, and when we were the kids' ages most large corporations still had pensions as well, so that was the unspoken expectation around retirement at that time. 

[LennStar]

Our dad has a military pension, our mother had a government one, and when we were the kids' ages most large corporations still had pensions as well, so that was the unspoken expectation around retirement at that time.

SOCIALISM!!!!! ;)

[RWTL]

At one point the grandkids' topic of conversation turned to 401k/IRA, stock market, etc which kind of blew my brother's mind.  He mentioned that we'd never talked about that growing up, which is true. 

That must have been satisfying.  Good to see each generation incrementally improving.

[Zamboni]

This past weekend I learned of a potentially Epic FU story brewing within my extended family.

Backstory:  Eldest nephew got his Associates Degree in May 2020 and decided not to transfer to a 4 year school right away because he didn't want to be taking online courses while paying on campus level tuition.  That summer he was promoted to entry level management at the big box store where he worked.  Still lived at home, low expenses, saved a bunch of money so he'd be able to pay cash whenever he went back for his degree.

He starts looking around his company and realizes that there are opportunities to move up the ladder if he's willing to move geographically.   So he applies for and receives a promotion to go to a store near where his other grandparents live, stays with them for a while, and then gets another promotion in that geographic area.

At that point, he decides he's fine with moving around if that gets him up the ladder, and he takes another promotion that puts him in a big city almost a day's drive away.  All is going great, he can put in for another promotion after he's been there a year, and he's eligible to start training for the next level about 9 months after the transfer.

Except there's a manager in his chain who was replaced about 4-5 months ago, and the new guy has a reputation for never letting anyone transfer out.  He knows my nephew makes his store look good and he wants to keep his claws in.  This guy is blocking my nephew from starting training for the next level.  Other stores are actively recruiting my nephew to transfer to them for promotions, but without an overrule from corporate, he won't be allowed to do that.

Nephew is a young guy with no kids, no mortgage, no local family where he currently is.  In fact, he's even young enough to go back on his parent's health insurance still.  This company doesn't even have any golden handcuffs besides annual bonuses.  All that the idiot upper management guy should already have access to know.  What he may not know on top of that is that nephew has a much bigger emergency fund than people twice his age and this may be the push he needs to go back to being a college student and finish his Bachelors degree.

Update to this one.  Eldest nephew has given notice and is starting back to college this month.  No word yet on the reaction he got when he turned in said notice.

Thanks to getting together at Christmas, I have an even better additional update to this one.  Turns out that instead of completely giving notice, my nephew stepped down to being part-time, lower level employee at the store near where he's going to school. 

The key benefit this gives him is that profit sharing is based on total number of years there, and total earnings for the year.  So he's going to get a profit sharing bonus check next month that's going to be based on full time salary for 2/3rds of the year plus whatever he's earned part time since then.  I'm sure his situation wasn't one that the corporate benefits person had in mind when coming up with the employee retention/profit sharing plan.

Nice work, nephew!

It turns out nearly every HR manual has what can best be referred to as "Loopholes" that can benefit the employee if you read carefully. Which you should, because they absolutely will interpret in their favor instead whenever they can.

One of the first "real" jobs I had they hired me in November and wanted me to start beginning of January. But then I read the HR benefits handbook that they sent along with the offer letter and realized if I started any time in Dec I would have an entire extra year of "time served" towards benefits, seniority, etc. AND I'd receive the bonus for that entire year in Feb, which made no sense, but I don't make the rules. Told the hiring manager I wanted to start Dec 19th instead, and he was hesitant because "no one would be around" and there was a total corporate shut down where no one worked between Christmas Eve and Jan 2nd. But I told him it would really be good to get the administrative stuff like HR orientation out of the way and I was excited to start, and so he reluctantly agreed it was fine. And so I started Dec 19th, worked a couple of days reading the HR manual, had the holidays off like everyone else, began my "second" year of service in Jan, and got the departmental bonus in Feb. And I was also fully vested for the retirement pension when I left ~four years later because according to their methods it was after 5 years of service, which was the time required for vesting.

[Turtle]

This past weekend I learned of a potentially Epic FU story brewing within my extended family.

Backstory:  Eldest nephew got his Associates Degree in May 2020 and decided not to transfer to a 4 year school right away because he didn't want to be taking online courses while paying on campus level tuition.  That summer he was promoted to entry level management at the big box store where he worked.  Still lived at home, low expenses, saved a bunch of money so he'd be able to pay cash whenever he went back for his degree.

He starts looking around his company and realizes that there are opportunities to move up the ladder if he's willing to move geographically.   So he applies for and receives a promotion to go to a store near where his other grandparents live, stays with them for a while, and then gets another promotion in that geographic area.

At that point, he decides he's fine with moving around if that gets him up the ladder, and he takes another promotion that puts him in a big city almost a day's drive away.  All is going great, he can put in for another promotion after he's been there a year, and he's eligible to start training for the next level about 9 months after the transfer.

Except there's a manager in his chain who was replaced about 4-5 months ago, and the new guy has a reputation for never letting anyone transfer out.  He knows my nephew makes his store look good and he wants to keep his claws in.  This guy is blocking my nephew from starting training for the next level.  Other stores are actively recruiting my nephew to transfer to them for promotions, but without an overrule from corporate, he won't be allowed to do that.

Nephew is a young guy with no kids, no mortgage, no local family where he currently is.  In fact, he's even young enough to go back on his parent's health insurance still.  This company doesn't even have any golden handcuffs besides annual bonuses.  All that the idiot upper management guy should already have access to know.  What he may not know on top of that is that nephew has a much bigger emergency fund than people twice his age and this may be the push he needs to go back to being a college student and finish his Bachelors degree.

Update to this one.  Eldest nephew has given notice and is starting back to college this month.  No word yet on the reaction he got when he turned in said notice.

Thanks to getting together at Christmas, I have an even better additional update to this one.  Turns out that instead of completely giving notice, my nephew stepped down to being part-time, lower level employee at the store near where he's going to school. 

The key benefit this gives him is that profit sharing is based on total number of years there, and total earnings for the year.  So he's going to get a profit sharing bonus check next month that's going to be based on full time salary for 2/3rds of the year plus whatever he's earned part time since then.  I'm sure his situation wasn't one that the corporate benefits person had in mind when coming up with the employee retention/profit sharing plan.

Nice work, nephew!

It turns out nearly every HR manual has what can best be referred to as "Loopholes" that can benefit the employee if you read carefully. Which you should, because they absolutely will interpret in their favor instead whenever they can.

One of the first "real" jobs I had they hired me in November and wanted me to start beginning of January. But then I read the HR benefits handbook that they sent along with the offer letter and realized if I started any time in Dec I would have an entire extra year of "time served" towards benefits, seniority, etc. AND I'd receive the bonus for that entire year in Feb, which made no sense, but I don't make the rules. Told the hiring manager I wanted to start Dec 19th instead, and he was hesitant because "no one would be around" and there was a total corporate shut down where no one worked between Christmas Eve and Jan 2nd. But I told him it would really be good to get the administrative stuff like HR orientation out of the way and I was excited to start, and so he reluctantly agreed it was fine. And so I started Dec 19th, worked a couple of days reading the HR manual, had the holidays off like everyone else, began my "second" year of service in Jan, and got the departmental bonus in Feb. And I was also fully vested for the retirement pension when I left ~four years later because according to their methods it was after 5 years of service, which was the time required for vesting.

I'll bet they didn't usually have people read that whole handbook.  Good for you!

[jinga nation]

Thought this might not be epic to most MMMers, but maybe to non-Mustachians.

Wife and I know we've got FU money. She had to travel overseas for a family member's medical emergency on the weekend.
Paying stupid prices for a flight to Southeast Asia in less than 24 hours? No issue.
Booked hotel rooms for her sis and bro too? No problem. (They're well off. We have the classic Asian problem of everyone wants to pay for others. But being able to book for her bro who's taking care of the parents on travel, and her sis who has work and kid issues to deal with - that's when money becomes a tool to lighten their burden, etc.)
Wife told her boss and offered to quit. He said "Nope, go and take care of family. Go buy a portable monitor and expense it. Expense anything else you may need for work or related to it." She may do a bit of admin work but nothing else. He didn't even talk about hours or pay. Good chap!
Her initial 5 weeks might become longer, and she'll offer again to quit. We'd discussed her quitting in a couple of years, but her taking the option now doesn't change things one bit.

Being frugal helps build a financial Mjolnir to strike at the right time.

[Adventine]

Thought this might not be epic to most MMMers, but maybe to non-Mustachians.

Wife and I know we've got FU money. She had to travel overseas for a family member's medical emergency on the weekend.
Paying stupid prices for a flight to Southeast Asia in less than 24 hours? No issue.
Booked hotel rooms for her sis and bro too? No problem. (They're well off. We have the classic Asian problem of everyone wants to pay for others. But being able to book for her bro who's taking care of the parents on travel, and her sis who has work and kid issues to deal with - that's when money becomes a tool to lighten their burden, etc.)
Wife told her boss and offered to quit. He said "Nope, go and take care of family. Go buy a portable monitor and expense it. Expense anything else you may need for work or related to it." She may do a bit of admin work but nothing else. He didn't even talk about hours or pay. Good chap!
Her initial 5 weeks might become longer, and she'll offer again to quit. We'd discussed her quitting in a couple of years, but her taking the option now doesn't change things one bit.

Being frugal helps build a financial Mjolnir to strike at the right time.

Good for you and your wife!


I've also had to book emergency flights to Southeast Asia for the exact same reason.


Hope the family member's medical issue gets resolved in a positive way.

[Chaplin]

Being frugal helps build a financial Mjolnir to strike at the right time.

That's a line for the ages!

[glacio09]

Thought this might not be epic to most MMMers, but maybe to non-Mustachians.

Wife and I know we've got FU money. She had to travel overseas for a family member's medical emergency on the weekend.
Paying stupid prices for a flight to Southeast Asia in less than 24 hours? No issue.
Booked hotel rooms for her sis and bro too? No problem. (They're well off. We have the classic Asian problem of everyone wants to pay for others. But being able to book for her bro who's taking care of the parents on travel, and her sis who has work and kid issues to deal with - that's when money becomes a tool to lighten their burden, etc.)
Wife told her boss and offered to quit. He said "Nope, go and take care of family. Go buy a portable monitor and expense it. Expense anything else you may need for work or related to it." She may do a bit of admin work but nothing else. He didn't even talk about hours or pay. Good chap!
Her initial 5 weeks might become longer, and she'll offer again to quit. We'd discussed her quitting in a couple of years, but her taking the option now doesn't change things one bit.

Being frugal helps build a financial Mjolnir to strike at the right time.

I came across a quote somewhere that when you are financially stable most emergencies just become annoyances. It's been so true. Being able to focus on either the logistical and emotional problems and hand wave away the financial has been great.

On a lighter version of this, my husband grew up with travel being an extravagance and most trips being intense boy scout camping. I'm slowly easing his packing anxiety by reminding him that Berlin is not in fact the middle of nowhere and they will have toothpaste there if we need some. It's been fun.

[LennStar]

On a lighter version of this, my husband grew up with travel being an extravagance and most trips being intense boy scout camping. I'm slowly easing his packing anxiety by reminding him that Berlin is not in fact the middle of nowhere and they will have toothpaste there if we need some. It's been fun.

Yes, we have that stuff. In nearly every supermarket, dm or Rossmann ;)

I grew up poor too and was always wondering about the complainypants that they only made one long range travel this year or - gasp - only to a German place!! (I had 2 holidays outside Germany until I was in my 20s.)
That are, of course, the same people that lament any tax increase, inflation or gas price rise as the end of the world, while I am always surprised at where the gas price is when I fill up. It always is 20 cents different from last time, sometimes up, sometimes down.
And I have problems seeing the problem with not being able to "enjoy" a crampted 12 hour flight, 12 hours of transfer to/from airport per direction, jetlag and all the other fantastic stuff I don't get to experience staying in Germany.

[dandarc]

@jinga nation - very impactful story on why everyone should endeavor to have FU money.

Similar (much smaller scale logistically) for me in December - basically forced my mom to stay in a hotel with me post-surgery by flying up and making an offer so generous she wouldn't refuse. They could totally afford this arrangement whenever necessary but absolutely would not over irrational money worries. Was good for everyone - for multiple reasons, their house is just not very safe for a person in her 70's with mobility issues and then add on recovering from significant surgery. My mom actually thanked the hotel manager more than once for how well the accessible bathroom worked for her with all the grab-bars.

[NorthernIkigai]

On a lighter version of this, my husband grew up with travel being an extravagance and most trips being intense boy scout camping. I'm slowly easing his packing anxiety by reminding him that Berlin is not in fact the middle of nowhere and they will have toothpaste there if we need some. It's been fun.

Yes, we have that stuff. In nearly every supermarket, dm or Rossmann ;)

...unless you arrive on a Sunday, when most of those are closed! Which may feel weird to a visiting American.

[AMandM]

I came across a quote somewhere that when you are financially stable most emergencies just become annoyances. It's been so true. Being able to focus on either the logistical and emotional problems and hand wave away the financial has been great.

My BIL used to have a business mentor who would say, "That's a not a problem, it's an expense" if it was a problem that could be solved with (available) money.

[glacio09]

On a lighter version of this, my husband grew up with travel being an extravagance and most trips being intense boy scout camping. I'm slowly easing his packing anxiety by reminding him that Berlin is not in fact the middle of nowhere and they will have toothpaste there if we need some. It's been fun.

Yes, we have that stuff. In nearly every supermarket, dm or Rossmann ;)

...unless you arrive on a Sunday, when most of those are closed! Which may feel weird to a visiting American.

The Sunday I was prepared for, the Monday after being Unity day I was not. Thankfully it was only some window shopping that I was leaving to the last day of the trip. It makes for a good reason to go back.

[RWTL]

I came across a quote somewhere that when you are financially stable most emergencies just become annoyances. It's been so true. Being able to focus on either the logistical and emotional problems and hand wave away the financial has been great.

My BIL used to have a business mentor who would say, "That's a not a problem, it's an expense" if it was a problem that could be solved with (available) money.

I like both of these thoughts and might even modify the first quote to "...most emergencies just become a non-issue."   We've had a number of things come up that I've just shrugged and said, "Ok." when perhaps in my 20's or 30's it would have been anxiety provoking.

[Laura33]

I came across a quote somewhere that when you are financially stable most emergencies just become annoyances. It's been so true. Being able to focus on either the logistical and emotional problems and hand wave away the financial has been great.

My BIL used to have a business mentor who would say, "That's a not a problem, it's an expense" if it was a problem that could be solved with (available) money.

I like both of these thoughts and might even modify the first quote to "...most emergencies just become a non-issue."   We've had a number of things come up that I've just shrugged and said, "Ok." when perhaps in my 20's or 30's it would have been anxiety provoking.

I call this "solving a problem by throwing money at it."  Terrible if you do it all the time, but amazingly freeing to know you can when you really need to.

[jeninco]

I came across a quote somewhere that when you are financially stable most emergencies just become annoyances. It's been so true. Being able to focus on either the logistical and emotional problems and hand wave away the financial has been great.

My BIL used to have a business mentor who would say, "That's a not a problem, it's an expense" if it was a problem that could be solved with (available) money.

I like both of these thoughts and might even modify the first quote to "...most emergencies just become a non-issue."   We've had a number of things come up that I've just shrugged and said, "Ok." when perhaps in my 20's or 30's it would have been anxiety provoking.

I call this "solving a problem by throwing money at it."  Terrible if you do it all the time, but amazingly freeing to know you can when you really need to.

Ha, I less tactfully say "it's not a PROBLEM if you can solve it by throwing money at it (and you have the money available)" At that point, it's mostly an inconvenience.

[AlanStache]

I came across a quote somewhere that when you are financially stable most emergencies just become annoyances. It's been so true. Being able to focus on either the logistical and emotional problems and hand wave away the financial has been great.

My BIL used to have a business mentor who would say, "That's a not a problem, it's an expense" if it was a problem that could be solved with (available) money.

I like both of these thoughts and might even modify the first quote to "...most emergencies just become a non-issue."   We've had a number of things come up that I've just shrugged and said, "Ok." when perhaps in my 20's or 30's it would have been anxiety provoking.

I call this "solving a problem by throwing money at it."  Terrible if you do it all the time, but amazingly freeing to know you can when you really need to.

Ha, I less tactfully say "it's not a PROBLEM if you can solve it by throwing money at it (and you have the money available)" At that point, it's mostly an inconvenience.

It is not against the law to park here, you just have to pay 250$ to the city if they send you a bill. 

[Gerard]

It is not against the law to park here, you just have to pay 250$ to the city if they send you a bill.

What's the saying? "To rich people, fines are license fees"?

[Alternatepriorities]

It is not against the law to park here, you just have to pay 250$ to the city if they send you a bill.

What's the saying? "To rich people, fines are license fees"?

Does that still work if you only got rich by being frugal? I've been FIRE'd two and a half years, and I still struggle with "wasting" money on things like parking at the airport. Not sure how much money I would need to just park illegally and plan to pay the fine.

[Gerard]

It is not against the law to park here, you just have to pay 250$ to the city if they send you a bill.

What's the saying? "To rich people, fines are license fees"?

Does that still work if you only got rich by being frugal? I've been FIRE'd two and a half years, and I still struggle with "wasting" money on things like parking at the airport. Not sure how much money I would need to just park illegally and plan to pay the fine.

I mostly hear the quotation from people pointing out that money-based fines are in effect discrimination against the poor.

But even in a frugal context, there are advantages to knowing you can buy your way out of trouble if you have to. Like, I can take the bus home at night, knowing that the one time in 20 that I miss the last bus, I have enough money for cab fare.

[RWTL]

I like both of these thoughts and might even modify the first quote to "...most emergencies just become a non-issue."   We've had a number of things come up that I've just shrugged and said, "Ok." when perhaps in my 20's or 30's it would have been anxiety provoking.

A few hours after posting this, I had a real life example.  I large tree branch fell on the roof of my truck, putting several large (2 fists wide) dents in it.  I was disappointed, but I have the $500 that will cover my insurance deductible and I can drive it.  No real anxiety.

[Sibley]

When my AC went out days before a dangerous heatwave, knowing that I had the money to buy window air units, or just go to a hotel for a few days made it much less stressful. Money doesn't fix everything. Money enables you to fix things though.

[NorthernIkigai]

It is not against the law to park here, you just have to pay 250$ to the city if they send you a bill.

What's the saying? "To rich people, fines are license fees"?

Does that still work if you only got rich by being frugal? I've been FIRE'd two and a half years, and I still struggle with "wasting" money on things like parking at the airport. Not sure how much money I would need to just park illegally and plan to pay the fine.

I mostly hear the quotation from people pointing out that money-based fines are in effect discrimination against the poor.

In some countries, certain fines are based on the person’s income. So you sometimes hear about speeding fines of 50k or so. The point is that it *should* hurt, and that it should teach them to stop speeding.

[Alternatepriorities]

It is not against the law to park here, you just have to pay 250$ to the city if they send you a bill.

What's the saying? "To rich people, fines are license fees"?

Does that still work if you only got rich by being frugal? I've been FIRE'd two and a half years, and I still struggle with "wasting" money on things like parking at the airport. Not sure how much money I would need to just park illegally and plan to pay the fine.

I mostly hear the quotation from people pointing out that money-based fines are in effect discrimination against the poor.

In some countries, certain fines are based on the person’s income. So you sometimes hear about speeding fines of 50k or so. The point is that it *should* hurt, and that it should teach them to stop speeding.

I’d be happy to see all fines based that way… It would help level the playing field. I mentioned this comment to my brother today and he told me of someone he knew would would return rental cars by just parking them in the departure drop off lane… 

[NorthernIkigai]

It is not against the law to park here, you just have to pay 250$ to the city if they send you a bill.

What's the saying? "To rich people, fines are license fees"?

Does that still work if you only got rich by being frugal? I've been FIRE'd two and a half years, and I still struggle with "wasting" money on things like parking at the airport. Not sure how much money I would need to just park illegally and plan to pay the fine.

I mostly hear the quotation from people pointing out that money-based fines are in effect discrimination against the poor.

In some countries, certain fines are based on the person’s income. So you sometimes hear about speeding fines of 50k or so. The point is that it *should* hurt, and that it should teach them to stop speeding.

I’d be happy to see all fines based that way… It would help level the playing field. I mentioned this comment to my brother today and he told me of someone he knew would would return rental cars by just parking them in the departure drop off lane…

You'd think the rental car companies would have conditions in their contracts that would let them recoup the costs for both the fees and the hassle of that. If not the first time it happened, definitely after it's happened a few times.

Yes, I'm also all in favour of income-based fines. Of course Mustachians know very well that income and wealth don't always correlate. But where I am, there's not that much old money that you'd have a lot of people with large wealth but no or low income. And income is something the government tracks very closely, so that's easy to use as a measure of "how much will this fine affect this person".

[LennStar]

If you have a high income, you should pay high fines, regardless of your wealth. It has to hurt, and if it hurts harder because you can't hold your money together I won't cry.

And if you have a "filthy" high wealth, it always comes with high maintenance costs, so just for them you aslo have a high income.

The only ones not much affected would be the "mustachian" FIRE millionaire who lives below their means - and I daresay those are not people with a habit of incurring fines. (Would be nice if there is a study about that.)

I am all for income-based fines everywhere, including parking violations (mentioned for a reason).
Hm... oh, I see English has a good name for that, even if you don't use the concept: day-fine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-fine

[former player]

It was tried in the UK a couple of decades or so ago but as soon as the chattering classes started getting high four-figure fines for speeding offences it was quickly dropped.

[merula]

It was tried in the UK a couple of decades or so ago but as soon as the chattering classes started getting high four-figure fines for speeding offences it was quickly dropped.

Every time I think I can't be surprised about the class problems in the UK, something new comes up. (1) High four-figures doesn't seem all that high, even, and (2) isn't that the whole point?! Sheesh

[lutorm]

I am all for income-based fines everywhere, including parking violations (mentioned for a reason).
Hm... oh, I see English has a good name for that, even if you don't use the concept: day-fine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-fine

Sweden  and, I think, the other Nordic countries use this. Of course, as a FIRE, you may be wealthy but not have a high income, so it wouldn't necessarily affect you anyway.

[pasadenafr]

I never knew income-based fines were a thing, but now that I think about it, I agree it's a good idea.

I just had a conversation yesterday, where I was defending progressive income taxes, saying they're the only fair solution. I live in a no-income-tax state, and most people I know defend that tooth and nails. And then they proceed to bitch about high tabs for their expensive cars, high local taxes and tolls. I'm like... duh? Just like they went up in arms when the State came up with a 7% tax on capital gains *above $250k*.

It's unfair that people who make a lot less than I do have to pay the same exorbitant taxes on every bill (my water bill? $100 a month. $80 of that is local and county taxes and infrastructure, $17 is pipes, and $3 is actual consumption). I'd rather pay $x00 in income/CG taxes so everybody else can afford their utility bills.

And that, my friends, is a very unpopular opinion in my neck of the woods.

[RyanAtTanagra]

And that, my friends, is a very unpopular opinion in my neck of woods.

Heh, I was having a discussion with my sister about taxes and she went 'what, you want to pay MORE taxes?' expecting me to say 'no not myself', and I said 'yes, yes I do.  i should at my income level'.  End of conversation I seemed to have grown a second head or something.

Regarding the income-based fines, for the countries doing it, how do they figure out how much someone makes?  Previous year's tax would be easiest, but how do they handle a situation where someone made a lot last year, but now they're laid off and/or making a lot less?  I would love to see this method of fines implemented in America, but I can see it being a constant litigation of people saying the amount is wrong.

[Log]

And that, my friends, is a very unpopular opinion in my neck of woods.

Heh, I was having a discussion with my sister about taxes and she went 'what, you want to pay MORE taxes?' expecting me to say 'no not myself', and I said 'yes, yes I do.  i should at my income level'.  End of conversation I seemed to have grown a second head or something.

Regarding the income-based fines, for the countries doing it, how do they figure out how much someone makes?  Previous year's tax would be easiest, but how do they handle a situation where someone made a lot last year, but now they're laid off and/or making a lot less?  I would love to see this method of fines implemented in America, but I can see it being a constant litigation of people saying the amount is wrong.

Government is already capable of verifying people’s income changes mid-year for all sorts of reasons - people who lose their jobs just have to provide the proper documentation to qualify for Medicaid or SNAP or other means-tested benefits.

[Alternatepriorities]

To be fully effective it seems to me the fine would have to be the large amount of x% of income or y% of assets. I’ll leave if “y” should be 4% of “x” as exercise for the reader…

[midweststache]

And that, my friends, is a very unpopular opinion in my neck of woods.

Heh, I was having a discussion with my sister about taxes and she went 'what, you want to pay MORE taxes?' expecting me to say 'no not myself', and I said 'yes, yes I do.  i should at my income level'.  End of conversation I seemed to have grown a second head or something.

That is the same conversation I had with my dad earlier this year, who (jokingly) hissed at me and made the sign of the cross.

[Alfred J Quack]

And that, my friends, is a very unpopular opinion in my neck of woods.

Heh, I was having a discussion with my sister about taxes and she went 'what, you want to pay MORE taxes?' expecting me to say 'no not myself', and I said 'yes, yes I do.  i should at my income level'.  End of conversation I seemed to have grown a second head or something.

I had a kind of comparable conversation with my mum. Me and the missus paid of our mortgage, have 12 solar panels but that's still not enough for our full-electric houshold.
To mitigate our electric cost further we bought shares in a wind-farm and our net expenses on electric (including tax) were -600 or something last year because of a long running contract for electric while everyone around us was getting higher prices because of the world-wide gas-price going through the roof.

I know a colleague of mine has a charity to give a big group of minimum income families a christmas food package. Not the high and mighty stuff that's expensive but not very useful but the actual useful stuff. I donated a big part of my return to his charity.
I also learned that someone who I sold a tablet with a defective battery to, that he was autistic and in a program to get work experience with very little income. I gifted him the tablet and told him to do his best and let me know if he needs some more stuff to work or practice on.

I'm also supporting non-profits that support parents with children with Down's syndrome (because of our youngest), autistic people in general (because I'm autistic and so is my eldest), emotional support dogs for disabled people.

And at the end of the day I see I can get a big chunk of what I paid to alllll of those back from income tax. So I file my income tax and get a chunk back and use that to support the charities more next year. Life is strange sometimes...

[NorthernIkigai]

And that, my friends, is a very unpopular opinion in my neck of woods.

Regarding the income-based fines, for the countries doing it, how do they figure out how much someone makes?  Previous year's tax would be easiest, but how do they handle a situation where someone made a lot last year, but now they're laid off and/or making a lot less?  I would love to see this method of fines implemented in America, but I can see it being a constant litigation of people saying the amount is wrong.

Where I live, incomes are nowadays reported (by the employer) to the tax authorities on a monthly basis. Taxes and everything else to do with income can be very quickly adjusted when circumstances change. It also makes tax filing etc. very fast and simple.

I think if you get a fine like this (which I have no personal experience of), the police will ask you for your income level. Sometimes you hear of people having lied about their incomes in these situations, and then later gotten a very much higher fine for lying...

[NorthernIkigai]

To be fully effective it seems to me the fine would have to be the large amount of x% of income or y% of assets. I’ll leave if “y” should be 4% of “x” as exercise for the reader…

I'm looking forward to the blog on this! Hopefully it has at least 60 posts!

[NorthernIkigai]

And that, my friends, is a very unpopular opinion in my neck of woods.

Heh, I was having a discussion with my sister about taxes and she went 'what, you want to pay MORE taxes?' expecting me to say 'no not myself', and I said 'yes, yes I do.  i should at my income level'.  End of conversation I seemed to have grown a second head or something.

I had a kind of comparable conversation with my mum. Me and the missus paid of our mortgage, have 12 solar panels but that's still not enough for our full-electric houshold.
To mitigate our electric cost further we bought shares in a wind-farm and our net expenses on electric (including tax) were -600 or something last year because of a long running contract for electric while everyone around us was getting higher prices because of the world-wide gas-price going through the roof.

I know a colleague of mine has a charity to give a big group of minimum income families a christmas food package. Not the high and mighty stuff that's expensive but not very useful but the actual useful stuff. I donated a big part of my return to his charity.
I also learned that someone who I sold a tablet with a defective battery to, that he was autistic and in a program to get work experience with very little income. I gifted him the tablet and told him to do his best and let me know if he needs some more stuff to work or practice on.

I'm also supporting non-profits that support parents with children with Down's syndrome (because of our youngest), autistic people in general (because I'm autistic and so is my eldest), emotional support dogs for disabled people.

And at the end of the day I see I can get a big chunk of what I paid to alllll of those back from income tax. So I file my income tax and get a chunk back and use that to support the charities more next year. Life is strange sometimes...

I wouldn't equate a particular country's tax policies with life.

There's nothing natural about the way taxes or charity is organized in a particular society, although it may be so ingrained there that it seems natural and obvious. Sometimes I think the couple of taxation systems I have experience with should just be blown up and completely rebuilt. It's absurd how some things are incentivized and others nudged a bit but then you have to compensate it somewhere else, etc.