Author Topic: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?  (Read 9994 times)

Morning Glory

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2229
  • Location: The Garden Path
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #200 on: May 11, 2021, 01:01:05 PM »

This sounds like the "whataboutism" that is thrown around when anyone makes a suggestion that would work for the majority of people but not everyone. I've seen it happen other places besides the forum.  Yes, I know that some people have disabilities or other reasons for not riding bikes, but if even half of people rode bikes for their short trips and grew vegetable gardens and hung their laundry outside it would be so much better for the population and the planet.

I hang clothes up inside, thankyouverymuch. Don't want the endemic pollen, etc. on the clothing.

I hang mine up inside too*, but that's because a FREAKING squirrel ATE MY CLOTHES LINES!!!  Stupid fat chunker** squirrel. 

* note DH recently hung some more hopefully squirrel proof lines (plastic wrapped metal with metal fasteners).  The significant price increase from standard lines and knots caused a long pause in doing so.  It was a nice surprise present one day though.  <3

**I've seen the squirrel, the neighbors feed it (actually the birds, but the results are the same) and he/she is HUGE.

That's not as bad as black vultures actually stealing the clothing off the clotheslines, which has happened to me before.  I love birds of prey, but sometimes they can be assholes.

A bald eagle stole a couple of chickens last year, and there was an article about ravens stealing meat in the Costco parking lot.

I hang the clothes inside for about half the year or they would freeze dry. I prefer outside when I can though.

Freeze drying is absolutely a thing though. My grandma used to tell me stories about when they had several kids in clothes diapers and only one coal stove to heat their house, she was so grateful when it was cold and dry enough outside to freeze dry the diapers instead of having drying racks all around the stove. Winter wasn't as bad because it was freezing so often, but she said fall and spring were terrible because those are usually cold and wet where she lived.

I've heard of freeze drying but never done it. The air in the house gets dry in the winter so I like putting the clothes racks in the bedrooms to add humidity.  My house is probably quite a bit bigger than your grandma's was, and it has central heat. She probably had to cook on that stove too. That would make some good stories for today's young people. I skied to work once a couple years ago and people still talk about it.

GodlessCommie

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 145
  • Location: NoVA
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #201 on: May 11, 2021, 01:03:39 PM »
Freeze drying is absolutely a thing though.
Confirming that freeze drying is a thing, although it's been a while since we've done it - partially from hedonic adaptation, partially from the lack of sub-zero (Celsius) days.

wenchsenior

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2912
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #202 on: May 11, 2021, 02:22:59 PM »

This sounds like the "whataboutism" that is thrown around when anyone makes a suggestion that would work for the majority of people but not everyone. I've seen it happen other places besides the forum.  Yes, I know that some people have disabilities or other reasons for not riding bikes, but if even half of people rode bikes for their short trips and grew vegetable gardens and hung their laundry outside it would be so much better for the population and the planet.

I hang clothes up inside, thankyouverymuch. Don't want the endemic pollen, etc. on the clothing.

I hang mine up inside too*, but that's because a FREAKING squirrel ATE MY CLOTHES LINES!!!  Stupid fat chunker** squirrel. 

* note DH recently hung some more hopefully squirrel proof lines (plastic wrapped metal with metal fasteners).  The significant price increase from standard lines and knots caused a long pause in doing so.  It was a nice surprise present one day though.  <3

**I've seen the squirrel, the neighbors feed it (actually the birds, but the results are the same) and he/she is HUGE.

That's not as bad as black vultures actually stealing the clothing off the clotheslines, which has happened to me before.  I love birds of prey, but sometimes they can be assholes.

A bald eagle stole a couple of chickens last year, and there was an article about ravens stealing meat in the Costco parking lot.

I hang the clothes inside for about half the year or they would freeze dry. I prefer outside when I can though.

A bald eagle stole chickens? Huh...that's not their usual prey, which is fish or carrion.  Did you actually see this, or did you assume it?  I totally could see ravens stealing grocery meat, though. That sounds right up their alley. Corvids are amazing.

Botany Bae

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 501
  • Location: PNW
  • Just another dharma bum
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #203 on: May 11, 2021, 02:48:09 PM »

A bald eagle stole chickens? Huh...that's not their usual prey, which is fish or carrion.  Did you actually see this, or did you assume it?  I totally could see ravens stealing grocery meat, though. That sounds right up their alley. Corvids are amazing.

Eagles have been known to take chickens from yards around here, if the space is open enough for an easy swoop and grab. The local backyard chicken group advises stringing clothesline with bird tape on it across the top of the fences, since eagles don't like to come down where they sense possible escape obstructions. We have so many bald eagles around it's crazy, and they are pretty opportunistic. I've seen them grab cottontails, as well.

henramdrea

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 68
  • Age: 54
  • Location: Southwest
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #204 on: May 11, 2021, 02:53:17 PM »
New things bad; old things good.

Yes, it's the nostalgia syndrome.  Empire Strikes Back is the best Star-Wars installment.  Now fight me.

Seriously though, the conversations have seemed to drift over the years from the "frugal flex" to the "oh-no-I-only-have-2.5 million-in-my-stash flex".  I find these a little tiresome, so I don't read them anymore.  The advice is always the same, move-from-HCOL-downsize-clown-house, yadda, yadda.

I will credit the stock market's performance for the more lackluster, mushier content though.  What we need is a good ol' fashioned recession.  That'll teach us!

TomTX

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
  • Location: Texas
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #205 on: May 11, 2021, 04:32:39 PM »
I miss learning something.  I used to regularly read an ERE or MMM post and see a problem from a new perspective.  Now it seems like its regurgitated, same old and same old from all FIRE bloggers.  There used to be more philosophy and that's what interests me.

I doubt I will be on the forums much at all in retirement.  At least hopefully I won't, if I am I will view that somewhat as a failure.
Wah!! I'm a failure! Going off to cry alone in my corner now ;-). JK but since I didn't get to go online while working, I'm making up for it now that I have endless free time. Plus I do not only continue to learn new things my self, but I think having some longer term early retiree voices here might be helpful to others dealing with various issues. Maybe I'm wrong and it is viewed by many as failing at FIRE if we engage here. Either way I get to do whatever the "F" I want 24/7 so it's all good.

As a data point: I am delighted you continue to post here, and you continue to be one of my heroes.

wenchsenior

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2912
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #206 on: May 11, 2021, 04:35:56 PM »

A bald eagle stole chickens? Huh...that's not their usual prey, which is fish or carrion.  Did you actually see this, or did you assume it?  I totally could see ravens stealing grocery meat, though. That sounds right up their alley. Corvids are amazing.

Eagles have been known to take chickens from yards around here, if the space is open enough for an easy swoop and grab. The local backyard chicken group advises stringing clothesline with bird tape on it across the top of the fences, since eagles don't like to come down where they sense possible escape obstructions. We have so many bald eagles around it's crazy, and they are pretty opportunistic. I've seen them grab cottontails, as well.

Yes, they are opportunistic, 'tis true. 

henramdrea

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 68
  • Age: 54
  • Location: Southwest
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #207 on: May 11, 2021, 05:55:48 PM »
I miss learning something.  I used to regularly read an ERE or MMM post and see a problem from a new perspective.  Now it seems like its regurgitated, same old and same old from all FIRE bloggers.  There used to be more philosophy and that's what interests me.

I doubt I will be on the forums much at all in retirement.  At least hopefully I won't, if I am I will view that somewhat as a failure.
Wah!! I'm a failure! Going off to cry alone in my corner now ;-). JK but since I didn't get to go online while working, I'm making up for it now that I have endless free time. Plus I do not only continue to learn new things my self, but I think having some longer term early retiree voices here might be helpful to others dealing with various issues. Maybe I'm wrong and it is viewed by many as failing at FIRE if we engage here. Either way I get to do whatever the "F" I want 24/7 so it's all good.

As a data point: I am delighted you continue to post here, and you continue to be one of my heroes.

Add another to the Spartana fan-club!

Morning Glory

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2229
  • Location: The Garden Path
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #208 on: May 11, 2021, 06:16:27 PM »
I miss learning something.  I used to regularly read an ERE or MMM post and see a problem from a new perspective.  Now it seems like its regurgitated, same old and same old from all FIRE bloggers.  There used to be more philosophy and that's what interests me.

I doubt I will be on the forums much at all in retirement.  At least hopefully I won't, if I am I will view that somewhat as a failure.
Wah!! I'm a failure! Going off to cry alone in my corner now ;-). JK but since I didn't get to go online while working, I'm making up for it now that I have endless free time. Plus I do not only continue to learn new things my self, but I think having some longer term early retiree voices here might be helpful to others dealing with various issues. Maybe I'm wrong and it is viewed by many as failing at FIRE if we engage here. Either way I get to do whatever the "F" I want 24/7 so it's all good.

As a data point: I am delighted you continue to post here, and you continue to be one of my heroes.

Add another to the Spartana fan-club!
Me too, me too!!

Malcat

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5937
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #209 on: May 11, 2021, 06:17:24 PM »
I miss learning something.  I used to regularly read an ERE or MMM post and see a problem from a new perspective.  Now it seems like its regurgitated, same old and same old from all FIRE bloggers.  There used to be more philosophy and that's what interests me.

I doubt I will be on the forums much at all in retirement.  At least hopefully I won't, if I am I will view that somewhat as a failure.
Wah!! I'm a failure! Going off to cry alone in my corner now ;-). JK but since I didn't get to go online while working, I'm making up for it now that I have endless free time. Plus I do not only continue to learn new things my self, but I think having some longer term early retiree voices here might be helpful to others dealing with various issues. Maybe I'm wrong and it is viewed by many as failing at FIRE if we engage here. Either way I get to do whatever the "F" I want 24/7 so it's all good.

As a data point: I am delighted you continue to post here, and you continue to be one of my heroes.

Add another to the Spartana fan-club!
Me too, me too!!

Same.

SpareChange

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 537
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #210 on: May 12, 2021, 11:49:38 AM »
Not sure how far these forums go back, but I've been at least lurking since 2013 I think. Joined the next year. Reading through this thread, I find myself agreeing with most of the general sentiments. As suggested above, I think the economic recovery is probably mostly to "blame" for the shift in tenor. Back then there was still some hangover from the GFC too. Messages like self-reliance and frugality transmit on a longer range frequency under those circumstances.

I grew up in a financially distressed family atmosphere, and early on was interested in saving and investing. When I started surveying the various financial forums, MMM was the one that fit like a glove. Still does. 

maizefolk

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5606
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #211 on: May 12, 2021, 12:02:14 PM »
Not sure how far these forums go back, but I've been at least lurking since 2013 I think.

You've been here almost the full lifetime of the forum then. Forum launched in the first half of 2012. Not of the exact date it went public, but can put an upper bound on the forum's age from the account creation date on MMM's profile.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/profile/?u=2

spartana

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2203
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #212 on: May 12, 2021, 12:35:15 PM »
I miss learning something.  I used to regularly read an ERE or MMM post and see a problem from a new perspective.  Now it seems like its regurgitated, same old and same old from all FIRE bloggers.  There used to be more philosophy and that's what interests me.

I doubt I will be on the forums much at all in retirement.  At least hopefully I won't, if I am I will view that somewhat as a failure.
Wah!! I'm a failure! Going off to cry alone in my corner now ;-). JK but since I didn't get to go online while working, I'm making up for it now that I have endless free time. Plus I do not only continue to learn new things my self, but I think having some longer term early retiree voices here might be helpful to others dealing with various issues. Maybe I'm wrong and it is viewed by many as failing at FIRE if we engage here. Either way I get to do whatever the "F" I want 24/7 so it's all good.

As a data point: I am delighted you continue to post here, and you continue to be one of my heroes.

Add another to the Spartana fan-club!
Me too, me too!!

Same.
LOL! You guys... wipes tear away... thanks. Good to know some of us old timers are appreciated. I do like to hear how other are faring in RE - especially some of the ones who retire young - and am curious if it meets their imagined life. Plus, ya know, I'm nosey ;-).

spartana

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2203
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #213 on: May 12, 2021, 12:43:30 PM »

This sounds like the "whataboutism" that is thrown around when anyone makes a suggestion that would work for the majority of people but not everyone. I've seen it happen other places besides the forum.  Yes, I know that some people have disabilities or other reasons for not riding bikes, but if even half of people rode bikes for their short trips and grew vegetable gardens and hung their laundry outside it would be so much better for the population and the planet.

I hang clothes up inside, thankyouverymuch. Don't want the endemic pollen, etc. on the clothing.

I hang mine up inside too*, but that's because a FREAKING squirrel ATE MY CLOTHES LINES!!!  Stupid fat chunker** squirrel. 

* note DH recently hung some more hopefully squirrel proof lines (plastic wrapped metal with metal fasteners).  The significant price increase from standard lines and knots caused a long pause in doing so.  It was a nice surprise present one day though.  <3

**I've seen the squirrel, the neighbors feed it (actually the birds, but the results are the same) and he/she is HUGE.

That's not as bad as black vultures actually stealing the clothing off the clotheslines, which has happened to me before.  I love birds of prey, but sometimes they can be assholes.

A bald eagle stole a couple of chickens last year, and there was an article about ravens stealing meat in the Costco parking lot.

I hang the clothes inside for about half the year or they would freeze dry. I prefer outside when I can though.

A bald eagle stole chickens? Huh...that's not their usual prey, which is fish or carrion.  Did you actually see this, or did you assume it?  I totally could see ravens stealing grocery meat, though. That sounds right up their alley. Corvids are amazing.
I use to live in Alaska (Anchorage and Cordova) and the damn bald eagles in Cordova stole everything! They really were pesky. In Anchorage the (ginormous) ravens would hang out on top of parked cars at the Carrs grocery store and steal everything they could take from people. Also pesky. I never had one steal anything off my clothesline (frozeline in winter haha) but the moose would wander through to eat plants in the yard and knock it down. So if you see moose in Alaska with women's underwear on it's antlers you now know why ;-).

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1830
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #214 on: May 12, 2021, 12:46:50 PM »
New things bad; old things good.

Yes, it's the nostalgia syndrome.  Empire Strikes Back is the best Star-Wars installment.  Now fight me.

Seriously though, the conversations have seemed to drift over the years from the "frugal flex" to the "oh-no-I-only-have-2.5 million-in-my-stash flex".  I find these a little tiresome, so I don't read them anymore.  The advice is always the same, move-from-HCOL-downsize-clown-house, yadda, yadda.

I will credit the stock market's performance for the more lackluster, mushier content though.  What we need is a good ol' fashioned recession.  That'll teach us!

But this is just an objective fact though.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14553
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #215 on: May 12, 2021, 12:56:30 PM »
New things bad; old things good.

Yes, it's the nostalgia syndrome.  Empire Strikes Back is the best Star-Wars installment.  Now fight me.

Seriously though, the conversations have seemed to drift over the years from the "frugal flex" to the "oh-no-I-only-have-2.5 million-in-my-stash flex".  I find these a little tiresome, so I don't read them anymore.  The advice is always the same, move-from-HCOL-downsize-clown-house, yadda, yadda.

I will credit the stock market's performance for the more lackluster, mushier content though.  What we need is a good ol' fashioned recession.  That'll teach us!

But this is just an objective fact though.

I mean... has anyone here tried to make a case that it is otherwise?  Otherwise I'd include it with such statements as "money can be used to buy things" and "never start a land war in Asia".

RWD

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4711
  • Location: Mississippi
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #216 on: May 12, 2021, 02:11:45 PM »
New things bad; old things good.

Yes, it's the nostalgia syndrome.  Empire Strikes Back is the best Star-Wars installment.  Now fight me.

Seriously though, the conversations have seemed to drift over the years from the "frugal flex" to the "oh-no-I-only-have-2.5 million-in-my-stash flex".  I find these a little tiresome, so I don't read them anymore.  The advice is always the same, move-from-HCOL-downsize-clown-house, yadda, yadda.

I will credit the stock market's performance for the more lackluster, mushier content though.  What we need is a good ol' fashioned recession.  That'll teach us!

But this is just an objective fact though.

I mean... has anyone here tried to make a case that it is otherwise?  Otherwise I'd include it with such statements as "money can be used to buy things" and "never start a land war in Asia".


Malee55

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Age: 55
  • Location: Melbourne Oz
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #217 on: Today at 01:31:21 AM »
I had not thought of the difference in the feel from early MMM until someone else pointed it out. It used to be all about reducing your spending but now is about increasing your stash. That is how it feels to me. So many people do a OMY with amounts that seem more than enough to quit work.

One thing I do like from a lot of the current threads is hearing from those who have already blazed their way out of work.

ender

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6190
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #218 on: Today at 06:57:31 AM »
I had not thought of the difference in the feel from early MMM until someone else pointed it out. It used to be all about reducing your spending but now is about increasing your stash. That is how it feels to me. So many people do a OMY with amounts that seem more than enough to quit work.

One thing I do like from a lot of the current threads is hearing from those who have already blazed their way out of work.

I suspect that part of this reason is that when the forum started, 2008/2009 was a relatively recent memory.

Now, we have had a decade of easy-mode net worth growing. Even the most recent financial "crisis" turned out pretty great for most folks on this board.

Loren Ver

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 750
  • Location: Midwest USA
  • I Retired. Yah!
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #219 on: Today at 07:30:40 AM »

This sounds like the "whataboutism" that is thrown around when anyone makes a suggestion that would work for the majority of people but not everyone. I've seen it happen other places besides the forum.  Yes, I know that some people have disabilities or other reasons for not riding bikes, but if even half of people rode bikes for their short trips and grew vegetable gardens and hung their laundry outside it would be so much better for the population and the planet.

I hang clothes up inside, thankyouverymuch. Don't want the endemic pollen, etc. on the clothing.

I hang mine up inside too*, but that's because a FREAKING squirrel ATE MY CLOTHES LINES!!!  Stupid fat chunker** squirrel. 

* note DH recently hung some more hopefully squirrel proof lines (plastic wrapped metal with metal fasteners).  The significant price increase from standard lines and knots caused a long pause in doing so.  It was a nice surprise present one day though.  <3

**I've seen the squirrel, the neighbors feed it (actually the birds, but the results are the same) and he/she is HUGE.

That's not as bad as black vultures actually stealing the clothing off the clotheslines, which has happened to me before.  I love birds of prey, but sometimes they can be assholes.

All kinds of birds (or other animal) stealing food makes sense, since you know, food.

But this is a jerk move.  Unless it is food or nesting (related to nesting i.e. gift) material.  Jerks.


nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14553
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #220 on: Today at 07:38:45 AM »
Facty:  Our national bird can be a jerk.


habanero

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 813
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #221 on: Today at 08:16:23 AM »
Now, we have had a decade of easy-mode net worth growing. Even the most recent financial "crisis" turned out pretty great for most folks on this board.

I notice a pretty big shift in the amount of time people think it should take to get somewhat rich. The last 12 years in the stock market, great as they have been are pretty dull in this mentality - after all it has taken like over a decade to get here for a mere 15% annual total returns. That feels really like a really long time and quite boring when you read about meme stocks and crypto and what not. Many want to get rich but can't be bothered doing it the somewhat hard and well-established way of spending less than you make and investing the difference in income-generating assets and watch it grow over time.

If it weren't for the collateral damage it involved and how many lives and businessses it would ruin I kinda hope we get a proper crash soon, one that lasts at least a couple of years where also the cons of risk and leverange gets exposed. Maybe someone might even learn that house prices don't always go up (I know they haven't neccessarily in the US).

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1830
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #222 on: Today at 08:18:34 AM »
I suspect that part of this reason is that when the forum started, 2008/2009 was a relatively recent memory.

Now, we have had a decade of easy-mode net worth growing. Even the most recent financial "crisis" turned out pretty great for most folks on this board.

I think this is an excellent point.

wenchsenior

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2912
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #223 on: Today at 08:24:48 AM »

This sounds like the "whataboutism" that is thrown around when anyone makes a suggestion that would work for the majority of people but not everyone. I've seen it happen other places besides the forum.  Yes, I know that some people have disabilities or other reasons for not riding bikes, but if even half of people rode bikes for their short trips and grew vegetable gardens and hung their laundry outside it would be so much better for the population and the planet.

I hang clothes up inside, thankyouverymuch. Don't want the endemic pollen, etc. on the clothing.

I hang mine up inside too*, but that's because a FREAKING squirrel ATE MY CLOTHES LINES!!!  Stupid fat chunker** squirrel. 

* note DH recently hung some more hopefully squirrel proof lines (plastic wrapped metal with metal fasteners).  The significant price increase from standard lines and knots caused a long pause in doing so.  It was a nice surprise present one day though.  <3

**I've seen the squirrel, the neighbors feed it (actually the birds, but the results are the same) and he/she is HUGE.

That's not as bad as black vultures actually stealing the clothing off the clotheslines, which has happened to me before.  I love birds of prey, but sometimes they can be assholes.

All kinds of birds (or other animal) stealing food makes sense, since you know, food.

But this is a jerk move.  Unless it is food or nesting (related to nesting i.e. gift) material.  Jerks.

It's odd from a behavioral standpoint. It would make complete sense if it were turkey vultures b/c they have an incredible sense of smell (these were field clothes, and pretty 'ripe' even after washing), but black vultures locate carrion and delicious stinky stuff by sight and have little sense of smell, so I have no idea what they wanted the clothes for.  Maybe they perceived brown floppy things draped over a line as limp dead animals?  It was tiresome to have to go out and retrieve my stuff from under their roost trees...

ender

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6190
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #224 on: Today at 08:30:50 AM »
Now, we have had a decade of easy-mode net worth growing. Even the most recent financial "crisis" turned out pretty great for most folks on this board.

I notice a pretty big shift in the amount of time people think it should take to get somewhat rich. The last 12 years in the stock market, great as they have been are pretty dull in this mentality - after all it has taken like over a decade to get here for a mere 15% annual total returns. That feels really like a really long time and quite boring when you read about meme stocks and crypto and what not. Many want to get rich but can't be bothered doing it the somewhat hard and well-established way of spending less than you make and investing the difference in income-generating assets and watch it grow over time.

If it weren't for the collateral damage it involved and how many lives and businessses it would ruin I kinda hope we get a proper crash soon, one that lasts at least a couple of years where also the cons of risk and leverange gets exposed. Maybe someone might even learn that house prices don't always go up (I know they haven't neccessarily in the US).

Right, frugality is much less important when the SP500 returned 14.6% annualized (dividend invested returns, from June 2013, when I joined the forum, until April 2021, based on https://dqydj.com/sp-500-return-calculator/). Even adjusted for inflation almost 13% annual returns.

When you see your investment balances going up ~15% a year just from growth... frugality is less important. Income/investments matter a lot then. If we have a decade of ~0% returns, I suspect we'd see a significant return to the emphasis on frugality.


It's also worth pointing out many of us who started on the forum in 2013 likely have meaningfully more income now than when we first joined. Frugality is also more important the less you make. Someone making $50k/year has a lot more emphasis on frugality to save 50% than that same someone still saving 50% a year almost a decade later making 100k instead.

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1830
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #225 on: Today at 08:38:41 AM »
My personal opinion is that once people start down the path of, "make $80K, save $50K, retire in 11 years.",  they decide that this exact path isn't worth it for a variety of reasons.

1.) With a little bit of imagination, they see that living on $30K at 30 is different from living on (an inflation adjusted) $30K at 50.
2.) For Americans, this is a lot of faith to place in the ever-in-peril Affordable Care Act.
3.) For all the talk of compound growth, accumulating only for an 11 year time horizon means that you're retiring 2/3rds on principal. Working just six more years inverts that number. 2/3rds on gains and 1/3rd on principal.
4.) Celebrity bloggers who convinced them to get on the FIRE path aren't living meagerly on the 4% rule, so why should I?
5.) Their job is better/more tolerable than it was when the FIRE journey started.
6.) Circumstances changed. Divorce. Kids. Expensive health event. Took an awesome, expensive vacation and decided this should be factored into the FIRE number.

When I joined this forum, I was in my mid 20s and dating. I was one promotion above entry-level at my job, but still doing a lot of grunt technical work and a little bit of analysis. It was exciting when I was 22, as was the paycheck that was 3x what I was making in restaurants. When I found this community, the money was a little better but the work was getting a bit stale.

Six years later though, I'm in management. More of my time is spent on big picture analytical problem solving. I'm married. There's a baby on the way. I work from home, and there's a reasonable expectation that arrangements will be pretty flexible going forward. Circumstances are totally different. When I built my FIRE spreadsheet in the early 2010s, I factored in 3% raises and expenses going up by 2%. I didn't factor in any of the big changes I just described because they're impossible to predict with much certainty.

MMM's kid successfully convinced him that dropping out and unschooling was the way to go. If my kid is anything like me or my wife, they'll cobble together a debt free degree using AP credit, some scholarships, some part time jobs, and a cheap state school. That'd be awesome. But maybe they'll love performing arts and get into Julliard. Am I willing to work a few extra years to foot the bill for that? Yeah, probably.
« Last Edit: Today at 08:40:19 AM by mathlete »

frugalnacho

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4716
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Madison Heights, Michigan
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #226 on: Today at 09:27:11 AM »
The future seemed so uncertain I always thought it was odd people predicted FIRE dates far in advance without knowing what the market would do or what their life situation would be.  I knew saving and investing and being frugal were all choices to push us in the right direction though even if I couldn't exactly quantify how much and precisely know my FIRE date.  Boy howdy has that ever worked out good for the last 7 years. 

tipster350

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #227 on: Today at 09:31:25 AM »
My personal opinion is that once people start down the path of, "make $80K, save $50K, retire in 11 years.",  they decide that this exact path isn't worth it for a variety of reasons.

1.) With a little bit of imagination, they see that living on $30K at 30 is different from living on (an inflation adjusted) $30K at 50.
2.) For Americans, this is a lot of faith to place in the ever-in-peril Affordable Care Act.
3.) For all the talk of compound growth, accumulating only for an 11 year time horizon means that you're retiring 2/3rds on principal. Working just six more years inverts that number. 2/3rds on gains and 1/3rd on principal.
4.) Celebrity bloggers who convinced them to get on the FIRE path aren't living meagerly on the 4% rule, so why should I?
5.) Their job is better/more tolerable than it was when the FIRE journey started.
6.) Circumstances changed. Divorce. Kids. Expensive health event. Took an awesome, expensive vacation and decided this should be factored into the FIRE number.

When I joined this forum, I was in my mid 20s and dating. I was one promotion above entry-level at my job, but still doing a lot of grunt technical work and a little bit of analysis. It was exciting when I was 22, as was the paycheck that was 3x what I was making in restaurants. When I found this community, the money was a little better but the work was getting a bit stale.

Six years later though, I'm in management. More of my time is spent on big picture analytical problem solving. I'm married. There's a baby on the way. I work from home, and there's a reasonable expectation that arrangements will be pretty flexible going forward. Circumstances are totally different. When I built my FIRE spreadsheet in the early 2010s, I factored in 3% raises and expenses going up by 2%. I didn't factor in any of the big changes I just described because they're impossible to predict with much certainty.

MMM's kid successfully convinced him that dropping out and unschooling was the way to go. If my kid is anything like me or my wife, they'll cobble together a debt free degree using AP credit, some scholarships, some part time jobs, and a cheap state school. That'd be awesome. But maybe they'll love performing arts and get into Julliard. Am I willing to work a few extra years to foot the bill for that? Yeah, probably.

This is all spot on.

As an older person, having read YMOYL and many other similar personal finance books prior to MMM's arrival on the scene, what MMM presented was not new to me. I'd completed a circuitous route to the final outline of what worked for me in terms of balancing savings, income, matching values to spending, and environmental impact of decisions, so I FIRED a lot later than most here. Over the years, I'd been through, or witnessed peers go though, many of the twists and turns life brings. Unexpected major health concerns, career ups, downs and shifts, divorces, kids who need a lot of medical or other help, elderly parents who need help, changing priorities etc etc. I've seen how a person can go from being on top of everything one day, actively managing money and accounts and DIYing many aspects of life, handling house maintenance, cooking etc. to....not being able to, in an instant. One never knows when or if that day will come. But there is also the more gradual path to simply not finding pleasure or not being able to do a lot of the DIYing, or biking, or sleeping on cheap mattresses. I've gained a full appreciation for the importance of good health insurance if living in the US and how unstable our healthcare situation is. And the extra cushion seems worth it and needed. The extra time at work, while it may be unpleasant for some, becomes a more attractive tradeoff because some of the luxuries along the way are worth it to the individual, as is the ability to have more options and security in the later years. Stoicism is ok only to a point. It is never a good idea to go without health insurance or to think your current lifestyle and spending will continue indefinitely and box yourself in with too tight a budget.

It is best to consider the information presented on MMM, be clear about what you want out of life, count on things changing, and planning for it.

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1830
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #228 on: Today at 09:55:46 AM »
The future seemed so uncertain I always thought it was odd people predicted FIRE dates far in advance without knowing what the market would do or what their life situation would be. I knew saving and investing and being frugal were all choices to push us in the right direction though even if I couldn't exactly quantify how much and precisely know my FIRE date.  Boy howdy has that ever worked out good for the last 7 years.

Yes!! I forgot to point that out.

My life hasn't 100% followed my spreadsheet. And I knew it wouldn't. But I'm SO lucky that I saved such a high percentage of my income back when it was fresh, exciting and easy. It's great for two reasons. One is that I have all that money saved (duh) and the other is that I already know how to live frugally.

Having a plan is almost always better than not having a plan IMO. Just gotta know that things change and the plan has the change too. It's easier to change something when it exists in the first place :)

Malcat

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5937
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #229 on: Today at 10:09:09 AM »
The future seemed so uncertain I always thought it was odd people predicted FIRE dates far in advance without knowing what the market would do or what their life situation would be. I knew saving and investing and being frugal were all choices to push us in the right direction though even if I couldn't exactly quantify how much and precisely know my FIRE date.  Boy howdy has that ever worked out good for the last 7 years.

Yes!! I forgot to point that out.

My life hasn't 100% followed my spreadsheet. And I knew it wouldn't. But I'm SO lucky that I saved such a high percentage of my income back when it was fresh, exciting and easy. It's great for two reasons. One is that I have all that money saved (duh) and the other is that I already know how to live frugally.

Having a plan is almost always better than not having a plan IMO. Just gotta know that things change and the plan has the change too. It's easier to change something when it exists in the first place :)

Exactly.

Plans aren't for predicting the future, they're for guiding decisions today. You have no idea how the future will play out, but making informed and prudent decisions today can make you more robust for handling whatever comes.

shelivesthedream

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6305
  • Location: London, UK
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #230 on: Today at 10:36:05 AM »
I still value the MMM forum a lot, even though I've mostly hung out in journals for some time now.

I miss the willingness of a large percentage of forum members to challenge the spending of others to an intense degree. People still dole out facepunches to real doofuses, but it seems that people are not questioning things like second cars or restaurant budgets in the way that was the norm back when I joined (in 2014?). It's always up to the individual concerned to decide whether they "truly value" their collection of cars, their seven bedroom home for a DINK, or their five star cruises. But now it seems that many posters "truly value" pointless polluting consumerism, and few people are asking if it's a prudent decision for them.

FWIW, I'm a physically feeble woman and I have long enjoyed the MMM badassery brand/persona. I found it entertaining and challenging, even though I am unlikely to ever own a kettlebell or cycle ten miles myself. I like the thoughtful debate on the MMM forums.

OtherJen

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4444
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #231 on: Today at 10:43:02 AM »
The future seemed so uncertain I always thought it was odd people predicted FIRE dates far in advance without knowing what the market would do or what their life situation would be.  I knew saving and investing and being frugal were all choices to push us in the right direction though even if I couldn't exactly quantify how much and precisely know my FIRE date.  Boy howdy has that ever worked out good for the last 7 years.

Same here! My husband and I can't predict our FI date with any confidence. Our lives have changed so much in the last 5 and 10 years that I laugh whenever I hear the interview question, "so tell me where you see yourself in 5 years."

Still, habits like maxing out our tax-sheltered retirement accounts, paying off all debt except the mortgage, increasing frugality, and saving the extra have had a HUGE impact on our net worth and financial security. The significant pay increase I received last year and the one husband expects to receive this year are icing on the cake, really. Our home value has almost fully rebounded to its 2003 market value, which is also encouraging. Whenever I enter our current stats into online retirement calculators, the results clearly indicate that we'll be able to retire comfortably in our early to mid 60s.

For late Gen Xers like us who don't have high-income careers and grew up hearing that our generation wouldn't be able to retire because we wouldn't have pensions and social security would be gone, the realization that we won't have to work until we're frail and then live in the poorhouse has been such a weight off of our shoulders.

frugalnacho

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4716
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Madison Heights, Michigan
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #232 on: Today at 10:56:51 AM »
It's mind blowing. MMM talked about it as if it was some magical force, just do these things and save and your net worth will shoot up like a rocket! I thought he was overly optimistic, but damn he was totally right.  I'm on a rocket ride to the moon and making more from my stache than I'm earning from my job.   

Botany Bae

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 501
  • Location: PNW
  • Just another dharma bum
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #233 on: Today at 12:03:47 PM »

For late Gen Xers like us who don't have high-income careers and grew up hearing that our generation wouldn't be able to retire because we wouldn't have pensions and social security would be gone, the realization that we won't have to work until we're frail and then live in the poorhouse has been such a weight off of our shoulders.

This is exactly what resonated with me.

Also, as another Jen that has always been the "other Jen" in groups of my peers, I always giggle when I see your username!

Zikoris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4010
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Vancouver, BC
  • Vancouverstachian
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #234 on: Today at 12:26:31 PM »
It's mind blowing. MMM talked about it as if it was some magical force, just do these things and save and your net worth will shoot up like a rocket! I thought he was overly optimistic, but damn he was totally right.  I'm on a rocket ride to the moon and making more from my stache than I'm earning from my job.

Totally, it was absolutely mind-blowing for me to find out as well. Like wait, I don't actually need to pursue a career or climb the latter, I can just kick back as a chill secretary, not spend money like a total drunken sailor (but still keep the overseas travel, hobbies, nice apartment, etc), and retire in my mid-30s? Shit, sign me up right here and right now.

shelivesthedream

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6305
  • Location: London, UK
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #235 on: Today at 01:30:14 PM »
I must say, though, general courteousness and sense of humour is still going strong: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what-careers-fit-these-criteria/

G-dog

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 16203
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #236 on: Today at 02:07:02 PM »
It's mind blowing. MMM talked about it as if it was some magical force, just do these things and save and your net worth will shoot up like a rocket! I thought he was overly optimistic, but damn he was totally right.  I'm on a rocket ride to the moon and making more from my stache than I'm earning from my job.

Totally, it was absolutely mind-blowing for me to find out as well. Like wait, I don't actually need to pursue a career or climb the latter, I can just kick back as a chill secretary, not spend money like a total drunken sailor (but still keep the overseas travel, hobbies, nice apartment, etc), and retire in my mid-30s? Shit, sign me up right here and right now.

I have been retired almost 6 years - it still seems like magic. My stash has doubled (I donít include home in stash).  MAGIC!

spartana

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2203
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #237 on: Today at 02:33:04 PM »
I must say, though, general courteousness and sense of humour is still going strong: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what-careers-fit-these-criteria/
Haha yeah some of us who posted info and experiences and links/discussions to MMM blog posts and others on the 3 other threads that were started were getting a little bit frustrated at that point.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 642
  • Location: Australia
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #238 on: Today at 05:58:16 PM »
It's mind blowing. MMM talked about it as if it was some magical force, just do these things and save and your net worth will shoot up like a rocket! I thought he was overly optimistic, but damn he was totally right.  I'm on a rocket ride to the moon and making more from my stache than I'm earning from my job.

Totally, it was absolutely mind-blowing for me to find out as well. Like wait, I don't actually need to pursue a career or climb the latter, I can just kick back as a chill secretary, not spend money like a total drunken sailor (but still keep the overseas travel, hobbies, nice apartment, etc), and retire in my mid-30s? Shit, sign me up right here and right now.

It's pretty location dependent. Here in Australia where the share market has increased just 16% since, say 2008 (when I first began investing as a student), it's been a hard slog for any of us to acquire a nest egg. (Dow Jones has gone up 200% in the same period.)

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14553
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #239 on: Today at 06:03:37 PM »
It's mind blowing. MMM talked about it as if it was some magical force, just do these things and save and your net worth will shoot up like a rocket! I thought he was overly optimistic, but damn he was totally right.  I'm on a rocket ride to the moon and making more from my stache than I'm earning from my job.

Totally, it was absolutely mind-blowing for me to find out as well. Like wait, I don't actually need to pursue a career or climb the latter, I can just kick back as a chill secretary, not spend money like a total drunken sailor (but still keep the overseas travel, hobbies, nice apartment, etc), and retire in my mid-30s? Shit, sign me up right here and right now.

It's pretty location dependent. Here in Australia where the share market has increased just 16% since, say 2008 (when I first began investing as a student), it's been a hard slog for any of us to acquire a nest egg. (Dow Jones has gone up 200% in the same period.)

Ok, but that begs the question - why invest in primarily or exclusively in such a small market?

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 642
  • Location: Australia
Re: What advice/ideas do you miss from MMM's early days?
« Reply #240 on: Today at 06:41:04 PM »
That's easy to say in hindsight.