Author Topic: Epic FU money stories  (Read 2794944 times)

talltexan

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3300 on: October 12, 2020, 08:16:22 AM »
What's interesting is that debt is indeed an ancient problem, but there was a very interesting passage in Capital in the Twenty-First Century that argued that--until there was an income tax--there was no culture of people who thought of income as an annual thing. It was all about weekly salary in the gilded age. (unless you inherited money, but that would be wealth, not income)

rantk81

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3301 on: October 12, 2020, 08:20:32 AM »
Doesn't money just represent a claim on future goods, services, resources?  So one could say that all money is, is a score-card on who owes who -- a.k.a. money = (someone else's) debt.

LennStar

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3302 on: October 12, 2020, 08:51:10 AM »
Doesn't money just represent a claim on future goods, services, resources?  So one could say that all money is, is a score-card on who owes who -- a.k.a. money = (someone else's) debt.
That is what antropologists say for a century, who have studied how it was over the millenia.

Economists say, this is all bullshit because we say it should be otherwise and we are the money profession and not some stupid liberal arts, right?

tipster350

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3303 on: October 12, 2020, 09:58:14 AM »
Was super excited to see new posts in this thread about Epic FU stories .... to find a whole string of OT  /0\

LennStar

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3304 on: October 13, 2020, 03:42:40 AM »
Was super excited to see new posts in this thread about Epic FU stories .... to find a whole string of OT  /0\
Turn more consumer suckas into MMM folks and you might find more epic FU stories here.

blurkraken22

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3305 on: October 13, 2020, 06:16:27 AM »
This is not exactly an FU money story, partially because I didn't even know what FU money was back then. Partially because there was no FU needed. But it's a nice way to use your FU money.

I was reasonably happy at work with some minor annoyances--I haven't found the perfect job yet. I had negotiated a pretty nice situation for myself at work, where I was working 3/4 time. Based on a recommendation from my manager, I transferred from my technical role into a pre-sales role. My new manager in pre-sales knew and agreed that I would be working 3/4 time in the new role. Yet, within a couple of months they were pressuring me come back to work full-time. Minor annoyance. In balance, 3/4 time was an awesome deal for me and not every employer would allow it in a position like mine. I definitely was not leaving for people problems or because of the job. One of my biggest complaints about my career to that point was that I was never able to figure out how to convince the company to transfer me to one of their offices abroad because I really really wanted to work in another country. I had talked to them about Singapore and France, but nothing stuck.

On the home front, I was about to get married. Our FU money was our savings to buy a boat. One of my other life ideas was to live on a boat and sail around the Caribbean and perhaps the world. I have more life ideas than I have lives. We had started co-saving about the time we started co-habitating. At the same time we were beginning to realize that the boat was never going to work out. My soon-to-be-wife turned an interesting shade of green on mildly choppy waters.

But when one door closes, another one opens. My soon-to-be-wife's family owned an apartment in a very very HCOL city abroad. The apartment was scheduled for sale in the indefinite future. For the moment the problem was that the building was scheduled for construction for exterior refacing. It's noisy, dusty work, but does not enter the unit. The family weren't going to sell during contstuction because it would depress the price. The apartment was going to be empty for at least a year. I saw an apportunity and proposed my idea to my bride. Soon enough she had secured family permission for us to go stay there during the construction. Perfect position: got financial runway and a mostly free place to stay! The only remaining question: what about work?

I proposed to my boss that the company should let me take 3 months unpaid leave. The company declined and told me their policy was 4 weeks. That was sufficient for me to make my decision. I explained to my boss that I needed to resign and I hoped maybe they would want me back some day. Before I left, I wrote a very nice letter about how much I had enjoyed working for them so far, but had an adventure I needed to go chase. After leaving work, we fixed up our current place as a rental (property value still a bit underwater after the great recession, but it could cash flow) and moved abroad. The experience was phenomenal. The money lasted longer than we expected. More adventures ensued as a result. Never a single regret about that decision. Plus, there are still more stories to tell after this one. :D

LightTripper

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3306 on: October 13, 2020, 06:38:32 AM »
It may not be traditional "FU" @blurkraken22 but still a cool story.  More "Free U" than "F**k U"!

Dicey

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3307 on: October 13, 2020, 06:59:49 AM »
@brukraken22, IMO this totally counts as an Epic FU story. It's also far closer to on topic than a discussion of etymology ;-)

BicycleB

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3308 on: October 13, 2020, 12:39:56 PM »
It may not be traditional "FU" @blurkraken22 but still a cool story.  More "Free U" than "F**k U"!

+2! Great story, great term!

blurkraken22

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3309 on: October 14, 2020, 07:40:55 AM »
About 8-9 years ago I was working a pretty miserable job with a crappy boss.  I was in debt (car loan, 2 maxed CCs, 2 student loans) and living paycheck to paycheck.  I wasn't making a lot of money, but more than I felt I could make somewhere else, so I was trapped.  Then a couple things clicked (meeting my frugal girlfriend was the main catalyst).  Over the course of a year I paid off all debts except one of the student loans and started saving 50% of my net.  I only had a couple months savings, but realizing I could get a job making half what I was currently suddenly put me into FU territory.  I made a list of demands for my boss, none of which were met, which is what I expected (he was the kind of guy that viewed everyone as an easily replaceable cog).  So I told him I was starting to job search, knowing what would happen.  Next day I'm handed a layoff notice (due to 'internal restructuring').  I knew 1) he would never let someone stay that was looking around, and 2) that he would have to lay me off (I'd been a flawless employee for 5 years, it would take too much time to build up a fireable case).  This made me qualify for unemployment, which at the time paid 50% of your previous 12 months wages.  Since that's what I'd been living on for a year, it had zero effect on my budget.  5 highly enjoyable and stress-free months later I landed one of the best jobs I've ever had, making 30% more than I was previously.

Not epic 'take this job and shove it', but if I hadn't had the financial stability and confidence, I might still be there.  FU money doesn't always have to be about your bank balance, either.  If you're living on half your paycheck, that opens a lot of doors that people don't usually have.  Most people can't afford to take a pay cut, which keeps them as trapped as debt or lack of savings does.
That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3310 on: October 14, 2020, 08:00:14 AM »
That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

Nah, he really wasn't, it was just his fastest/only option.  The reason I was so miserable at that job was because of him and his lack of ethics.  He would tell the sales people to promise customers features our product didn't do, nor would ever do.  Then when they bought and came to me to help them get it set up, and would ask about these features, I'd say 'no it doesn't do that'.  He started getting mad at all the return requests and told me 'you have to string them along until the 30-day money back guarantee is past'.  'Umm, yea I'm not doing that'.  That's when I decided I needed to figure out how to get out.

SwordGuy

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3311 on: October 14, 2020, 08:50:56 AM »
That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

Nah, he really wasn't, it was just his fastest/only option.  The reason I was so miserable at that job was because of him and his lack of ethics.  He would tell the sales people to promise customers features our product didn't do, nor would ever do.  Then when they bought and came to me to help them get it set up, and would ask about these features, I'd say 'no it doesn't do that'.  He started getting mad at all the return requests and told me 'you have to string them along until the 30-day money back guarantee is past'.  'Umm, yea I'm not doing that'.  That's when I decided I needed to figure out how to get out.

Sociopaths like that are the reason we can't trust businesses with public safety.   It's why we need safety regulations and regulators who work for the public.

jinga nation

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3312 on: October 14, 2020, 10:35:40 AM »
That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

Nah, he really wasn't, it was just his fastest/only option.  The reason I was so miserable at that job was because of him and his lack of ethics.  He would tell the sales people to promise customers features our product didn't do, nor would ever do.  Then when they bought and came to me to help them get it set up, and would ask about these features, I'd say 'no it doesn't do that'.  He started getting mad at all the return requests and told me 'you have to string them along until the 30-day money back guarantee is past'.  'Umm, yea I'm not doing that'.  That's when I decided I needed to figure out how to get out.

Sociopaths like that are the reason we can't trust businesses with public safety.   It's why we need safety regulations and regulators who work for the public.

I was lucky I had this situation early in my engineering career. When the company owner made incredulous promises to customers, and my engineering manager and team leads protested, her first task was to fire the engineering manager. Her second task was to corral the SW/HW/Mech engineers in a conference room and instruct us "how to engineer" (she had no technical education or experience). Her third task was to bring in a new engineering manager, a bitch of a bulldog. Finally all "non-compliant" engineers were laid-off in waves. These were the people who billed to contracts and performed the design HW/Mech design and wrote code. I was laid off in the second wave, in the middle of a final design review of my work. That Friday's happy hour, we were literally discussing who was going to do the work since there wasn't anyone competent left in the building. Literally 90-95% of the real talent had been dismissed over the 2 layoffs.
One co-worker, previously a Kodak lifer, who was also laid off, told me there was a silver lining. When Upper Management makes false promises which are technically unrealistic or impossible, and starts threatening our jobs, it's time to look elsewhere ASAP. This advice served me well 3.5 years later, when I saw warning signs, gave a heads-up to my closest co-workers (we played soccer after work twice a week), found an opportunity, and skipped town. Heard a couple of months later they had layoffs, and the middle-level younger engineers (28-40) were laid off. They kept the cheap young inexperienced engineers and the old fogeys who hated training new talent. 6Sigma/MBA-level decisions had frightening repercussions on deliverables to Space & Defense customers. Penalties were incurred.
It also spurred me to be better at everything I do, make a small career switch, get FI, have my FU stash, and work for a company where I'm valued. In the 2 comma club. Job could go away tomorrow and my family will be fine.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3313 on: October 14, 2020, 11:30:45 AM »
That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

Nah, he really wasn't, it was just his fastest/only option.  The reason I was so miserable at that job was because of him and his lack of ethics.  He would tell the sales people to promise customers features our product didn't do, nor would ever do.  Then when they bought and came to me to help them get it set up, and would ask about these features, I'd say 'no it doesn't do that'.  He started getting mad at all the return requests and told me 'you have to string them along until the 30-day money back guarantee is past'.  'Umm, yea I'm not doing that'.  That's when I decided I needed to figure out how to get out.

I really don’t understand why this sort of behavior can’t be criminally prosecuted as fraud.

former player

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3314 on: October 14, 2020, 11:55:01 AM »
That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

Nah, he really wasn't, it was just his fastest/only option.  The reason I was so miserable at that job was because of him and his lack of ethics.  He would tell the sales people to promise customers features our product didn't do, nor would ever do.  Then when they bought and came to me to help them get it set up, and would ask about these features, I'd say 'no it doesn't do that'.  He started getting mad at all the return requests and told me 'you have to string them along until the 30-day money back guarantee is past'.  'Umm, yea I'm not doing that'.  That's when I decided I needed to figure out how to get out.

I really don’t understand why this sort of behavior can’t be criminally prosecuted as fraud.
It would clog up the courts too much?

jinga nation

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3315 on: October 14, 2020, 12:08:25 PM »
That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

Nah, he really wasn't, it was just his fastest/only option.  The reason I was so miserable at that job was because of him and his lack of ethics.  He would tell the sales people to promise customers features our product didn't do, nor would ever do.  Then when they bought and came to me to help them get it set up, and would ask about these features, I'd say 'no it doesn't do that'.  He started getting mad at all the return requests and told me 'you have to string them along until the 30-day money back guarantee is past'.  'Umm, yea I'm not doing that'.  That's when I decided I needed to figure out how to get out.

I really don’t understand why this sort of behavior can’t be criminally prosecuted as fraud.
It would clog up the courts too much?
also the onus is on the employee to collect evidence and prove it. and whistleblowers don't get protected despite the law.
easier to say "fuck it, I quit" than to stay and prove it wrong. there's no financial gain to be made by employee.

Taran Wanderer

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3316 on: October 14, 2020, 12:15:09 PM »
Even whistleblower activity generally results in only civil remedies In cases like these. I’m suggesting that this is criminal behavior that should be prosecuted as theft or fraud. It would be in the interest of the cheated customers to pursue criminal charges.

Court capacity is a different (but clearly related) issue. That said, we seem to always have court capacity for low level criminal theft, but why don’t we create that capacity for large scale fraud, theft, and corruption? The answer will likely take us further off topic, so no need for answers. Consider it rhetorical.

bbqbonelesswing

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3317 on: October 14, 2020, 12:31:27 PM »
Even whistleblower activity generally results in only civil remedies In cases like these. I’m suggesting that this is criminal behavior that should be prosecuted as theft or fraud. It would be in the interest of the cheated customers to pursue criminal charges.

Court capacity is a different (but clearly related) issue. That said, we seem to always have court capacity for low level criminal theft, but why don’t we create that capacity for large scale fraud, theft, and corruption? The answer will likely take us further off topic, so no need for answers. Consider it rhetorical.

In my experience (post-sales), the lame salespeople who do this will usually oversell juuust enough so the customer can still use the product, and be 90% happy, but be annoyed a few things are missing. Ie you'll hear a lot of customers saying things like "Salesman Bob told us feature X was on the way later this year- can't wait for it to be ready!" and have to walk it back. I've never seen such a big disaster that we had to go to court or anything like that.

SwordGuy

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3318 on: October 14, 2020, 01:20:13 PM »
Even whistleblower activity generally results in only civil remedies In cases like these. I’m suggesting that this is criminal behavior that should be prosecuted as theft or fraud. It would be in the interest of the cheated customers to pursue criminal charges.

Court capacity is a different (but clearly related) issue. That said, we seem to always have court capacity for low level criminal theft, but why don’t we create that capacity for large scale fraud, theft, and corruption? The answer will likely take us further off topic, so no need for answers. Consider it rhetorical.

The same reason it's criminal theft when an employee takes an employer's stuff (enforced by tax-payer funded police, district attorneys, jails and courts) but it's a civil matter when an employer steals wages from an employee (enforced by employee-funded investigators and attorneys).   Because those who have the gold make the rules.

blurkraken22

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3319 on: October 15, 2020, 06:04:26 PM »
That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

Nah, he really wasn't, it was just his fastest/only option.  The reason I was so miserable at that job was because of him and his lack of ethics.  He would tell the sales people to promise customers features our product didn't do, nor would ever do.  Then when they bought and came to me to help them get it set up, and would ask about these features, I'd say 'no it doesn't do that'.  He started getting mad at all the return requests and told me 'you have to string them along until the 30-day money back guarantee is past'.  'Umm, yea I'm not doing that'.  That's when I decided I needed to figure out how to get out.

Well that's ironic! He did what a good boss would offer to do for an employee they liked.

On the ehhiics side, I'm in the software industry (B2B) and that kind of overselling is common enough without being intentional. I'm glad you were able to make a stand and get out and I really hope that guy lost all his customers and then his job .

Montecarlo

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3320 on: October 15, 2020, 06:42:15 PM »
My wife told me a story that a coworker was assigned to be a member of the safety team as as collateral responsibility.  The coworker didn’t respond when told.  He just turned around, went to his boss, and threatened to quit.

Wondering if he is here on this thread?

SwordGuy

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3321 on: October 15, 2020, 07:09:53 PM »
My boss once came to me and said he had ordered pagers for me and for those programmers who reported to me.  (Yep, that long ago, I'm that old!)

That would be a total waste of our time because our software worked.   The network was unreliable and we would spend our off hours trying to track down network people.    Screw that!

I looked him in the eye and said, calmly and slowly, "When I and my programmers write such bad code that we require pagers, **I** will find another line of work."

I never saw those damn pagers.

dandarc

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3322 on: October 15, 2020, 09:00:21 PM »
Wow - I'd venture a guess you weren't doing government contract work @SwordGuy. Or this might have been back when there was adequate supply of fairly good programmers to meet the demand (because of the low demand - the supply was severely limited I'm sure, but we didn't always have platforms that made everyone with 2 weeks of downtime and $1,000 to become a "coder"), and stuff like quality was valued over meeting the deadline.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 09:02:05 PM by dandarc »

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3323 on: October 15, 2020, 09:05:22 PM »
That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

Nah, he really wasn't, it was just his fastest/only option.  The reason I was so miserable at that job was because of him and his lack of ethics.  He would tell the sales people to promise customers features our product didn't do, nor would ever do.  Then when they bought and came to me to help them get it set up, and would ask about these features, I'd say 'no it doesn't do that'.  He started getting mad at all the return requests and told me 'you have to string them along until the 30-day money back guarantee is past'.  'Umm, yea I'm not doing that'.  That's when I decided I needed to figure out how to get out.

Well that's ironic! He did what a good boss would offer to do for an employee they liked.

On the ehhiics side, I'm in the software industry (B2B) and that kind of overselling is common enough without being intentional. I'm glad you were able to make a stand and get out and I really hope that guy lost all his customers and then his job .

If was the owner, but yea, basically :-)   It was a software company, and from what I heard, after I left all that shit got worse and not too long after that they went out of business.  Double slap in the face to the owner I'm sure, because at some point while I was working there, when things were going well, he had a buyout offer that would have set him up for life, and he refused it because he had dollar signs in his eyes on where he could take the company.  Couple lessons to anyone that starts a company: 1) the person that can start a successful company from the bottom isn't the same person that can take it to the next level.  Don't be arrogant, and 2) if you get an offer that can make you FI, take it and just start another endeavor without the worries of needing to succeed and sustain your family.

Dicey

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3324 on: October 15, 2020, 09:56:00 PM »
That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

Nah, he really wasn't, it was just his fastest/only option.  The reason I was so miserable at that job was because of him and his lack of ethics.  He would tell the sales people to promise customers features our product didn't do, nor would ever do.  Then when they bought and came to me to help them get it set up, and would ask about these features, I'd say 'no it doesn't do that'.  He started getting mad at all the return requests and told me 'you have to string them along until the 30-day money back guarantee is past'.  'Umm, yea I'm not doing that'.  That's when I decided I needed to figure out how to get out.

Well that's ironic! He did what a good boss would offer to do for an employee they liked.

On the ehhiics side, I'm in the software industry (B2B) and that kind of overselling is common enough without being intentional. I'm glad you were able to make a stand and get out and I really hope that guy lost all his customers and then his job .

If was the owner, but yea, basically :-)   It was a software company, and from what I heard, after I left all that shit got worse and not too long after that they went out of business.  Double slap in the face to the owner I'm sure, because at some point while I was working there, when things were going well, he had a buyout offer that would have set him up for life, and he refused it because he had dollar signs in his eyes on where he could take the company.  Couple lessons to anyone that starts a company: 1) the person that can start a successful company from the bottom isn't the same person that can take it to the next level.  Don't be arrogant, and 2) if you get an offer that can make you FI, take it and just start another endeavor without the worries of needing to succeed and sustain your family.
Any idea what he's doing now?

RyanAtTanagra

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3325 on: October 15, 2020, 10:21:57 PM »
That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

Nah, he really wasn't, it was just his fastest/only option.  The reason I was so miserable at that job was because of him and his lack of ethics.  He would tell the sales people to promise customers features our product didn't do, nor would ever do.  Then when they bought and came to me to help them get it set up, and would ask about these features, I'd say 'no it doesn't do that'.  He started getting mad at all the return requests and told me 'you have to string them along until the 30-day money back guarantee is past'.  'Umm, yea I'm not doing that'.  That's when I decided I needed to figure out how to get out.

Well that's ironic! He did what a good boss would offer to do for an employee they liked.

On the ehhiics side, I'm in the software industry (B2B) and that kind of overselling is common enough without being intentional. I'm glad you were able to make a stand and get out and I really hope that guy lost all his customers and then his job .

If was the owner, but yea, basically :-)   It was a software company, and from what I heard, after I left all that shit got worse and not too long after that they went out of business.  Double slap in the face to the owner I'm sure, because at some point while I was working there, when things were going well, he had a buyout offer that would have set him up for life, and he refused it because he had dollar signs in his eyes on where he could take the company.  Couple lessons to anyone that starts a company: 1) the person that can start a successful company from the bottom isn't the same person that can take it to the next level.  Don't be arrogant, and 2) if you get an offer that can make you FI, take it and just start another endeavor without the worries of needing to succeed and sustain your family.
Any idea what he's doing now?

Hah, man I haven't even thought about wondering about that.  Had to look him up.  Looks like he became a business consultant for security/tech companies, and might currently be a C-level at a local tech security company.  So that's about as expected.

Model96

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3326 on: October 16, 2020, 12:34:05 AM »
Remember, there's only 2 industries that call their customers 'users'.....IT and Illegal drugs! LoL

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3327 on: October 16, 2020, 07:17:03 AM »
My boss once came to me and said he had ordered pagers for me and for those programmers who reported to me.  (Yep, that long ago, I'm that old!)

That would be a total waste of our time because our software worked.   The network was unreliable and we would spend our off hours trying to track down network people.    Screw that!

I looked him in the eye and said, calmly and slowly, "When I and my programmers write such bad code that we require pagers, **I** will find another line of work."

I never saw those damn pagers.

I have a similar story except I wish I had responded like you did! Back in the early 90s, at my first job, I was the only one who knew how to debug a complex piece of experimental equipment. I had a long commute so I was given a company cell phone (the size of a briefcase) to keep in the car so I could be reached while on the road. Initially, I felt flattered that I was so important as to warrant being given a cell phone. But I soon found out that it meant that people in the office could reach me at all hours - gah! Never again did I accept such off-hours responsibilities in my career :-)

SwordGuy

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3328 on: October 16, 2020, 08:18:15 AM »
Wow - I'd venture a guess you weren't doing government contract work @SwordGuy. Or this might have been back when there was adequate supply of fairly good programmers to meet the demand (because of the low demand - the supply was severely limited I'm sure, but we didn't always have platforms that made everyone with 2 weeks of downtime and $1,000 to become a "coder"), and stuff like quality was valued over meeting the deadline.

It was back when pagers were in use, not cellphones. :)   So yes, this was back in the day.

And it certainly wasn't government contract work, I've done that too.   That's a totally different work environment than working in private industry.

I was just damn good at my job, I had good programmers working for me and I made sure folks used good methods and techniques so our quality was high and our delivery times were decent.   95% of our programming effort went into producing new functionality, 5% went into dealing with issues that cropped up -- and most of that was in one 3rd party software package.

And, equally important, my boss knew I was damn good at my job.  He wasn't likely to get that kind of results from my replacement.   

FWIW, I've never seen a surplus of really good programmers in my industry.    Or even competent ones.   And I've been working in the industry since 1982.   

bluebelle

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3329 on: October 16, 2020, 08:38:03 AM »
Wow - I'd venture a guess you weren't doing government contract work @SwordGuy. Or this might have been back when there was adequate supply of fairly good programmers to meet the demand (because of the low demand - the supply was severely limited I'm sure, but we didn't always have platforms that made everyone with 2 weeks of downtime and $1,000 to become a "coder"), and stuff like quality was valued over meeting the deadline.

It was back when pagers were in use, not cellphones. :)   So yes, this was back in the day.

And it certainly wasn't government contract work, I've done that too.   That's a totally different work environment than working in private industry.

I was just damn good at my job, I had good programmers working for me and I made sure folks used good methods and techniques so our quality was high and our delivery times were decent.   95% of our programming effort went into producing new functionality, 5% went into dealing with issues that cropped up -- and most of that was in one 3rd party software package.

And, equally important, my boss knew I was damn good at my job.  He wasn't likely to get that kind of results from my replacement.   

FWIW, I've never seen a surplus of really good programmers in my industry.    Or even competent ones.   And I've been working in the industry since 1982.
and this was why I ended up on call...........fixing other's  incompetence.....all too common a theme

dandarc

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3330 on: October 16, 2020, 10:31:11 AM »
Good programmer - key skills have nothing to do with technology really.

Observant enough to see when code you wrote didn't work quite right. Tenacious enough to figure it out. Diplomatic enough to not get yourself fired. Secure enough to ask the questions to get clear on what they want before you start writing your code.

techwiz

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3331 on: October 16, 2020, 10:40:35 AM »
Good programmer - key skills have nothing to do with technology really.

Observant enough to see when code you wrote didn't work quite right. Tenacious enough to figure it out. Diplomatic enough to not get yourself fired. Secure enough to ask the questions to get clear on what they want before you start writing your code.

If we knew want they want before starting to code(and that didn't change) it would be too easy.  Working in the government with many changes to the policies/politics on the fly,  ends up making programs so illogical and complex over the years even with good programmers it's a challenge.   

jinga nation

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3332 on: October 16, 2020, 10:55:19 AM »
Remember, there's only 2 industries that call their customers 'users'.....IT and Illegal drugs! LoL
And in both, never consume your product.
Drug dealers are just Value-Added Resellers. They offer complementary and complimentary add-ons.

dandarc

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3333 on: October 16, 2020, 11:13:02 AM »
Good programmer - key skills have nothing to do with technology really.

Observant enough to see when code you wrote didn't work quite right. Tenacious enough to figure it out. Diplomatic enough to not get yourself fired. Secure enough to ask the questions to get clear on what they want before you start writing your code.

If we knew want they want before starting to code(and that didn't change) it would be too easy.  Working in the government with many changes to the policies/politics on the fly,  ends up making programs so illogical and complex over the years even with good programmers it's a challenge.   
Trust me I know . . . but I'd characterize most of the problems I see as "bad programming" and not the fault of changing regulations.

blurkraken22

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3334 on: October 17, 2020, 08:30:13 PM »
I was so excited when I found this thread that I immediately wrote up an old story to share. That was five days ago. Since then I've managed to read about 20% of the thread (up to page 13).

I'm feeling therapized!

I've had a troublesome run in my current position over the past two years, first working under a manager who meant well, then absorbing a number of his responsibilities, then being rejected when I was stupid enough to apply for his job when he left. Eventually it all adds up to another FU story, but I have not reached the end of it and I probably don't have the perspective to write it up well just yet. My main lesson for the summer is HR always sides with management.

My question for today: why should I put in the effort to be honest in my exit survey? It's not (yet) an interview, they have a long-ass survey I'm meant to fill out on the HR portal. Should I tell them where I will work next? Surely I have no obligation to do that. But more importantly, is there any reason for me to spend time explaining their problems that they should already know about?

My supervisor was in his role for about 4 years. He had been there and proven himself incompetent for so long that people actually apologized to me about it when I arrived. He was there for another 1.5 years before moving to another role. The higher-ups kept talking about how the company had failed him. WTF!? Failed him? What about the 10-12 people who have to report to him?

[Aside: He's really an OK guy, but somehow completely incapable of making a decent decision as a manager of people. He always tried to find the one most important factor in every situation and would then make a one-factor decision based on that. I can see how that strategy could work wonders in some scenarios, but it rarely worked for what we do. He was also deeply cynical about people and their motivations. He tried not to show it, but inside, he really thinks people will take everything they can get away with and slack off as much as possible. I feel sad, because I don't think anyone could become a leader starting from that kind of belief system. Anyway, much to Mrs. BK's consternation, I do not blame him for this situation. He reached his Peter Principle job and was smart enough to walk away from it after 4 years of professional suffering.]

At a personal-level, the culture is pretty respectful here, which I'm thankful for. But the bureaucracy shows otherwise clearly. If the rules you have in place institutionalize a process of treating people like you cannot trust them, the message gets through.

A fairly simple message to corporate leadership: if you're spending a lot time time repeating "we value our employees" it's most likely because you have not done the things that would SHOW you value your employees.

BUT, back to the base question, is there any reason I should try to share this in an exit interview? I do not need an emotional release at this point, I'm moving to a better situation. I could lean FIRE today, but I'm holding off because the market highs have me feeling nervous. So I'm starting a new job at a new company in the next couple of months. What good will it do to spend my time and effort trying to tell HR things they either already know or would already know if they cared enough to pay attention?

EDITS: Clarity, missing words.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 09:35:43 PM by blurkraken22 »

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3335 on: October 17, 2020, 09:51:05 PM »
No, I would not tell your current employer where you're going.  I think it would be appropriate in your exit survey to state things like "Lack of autonomy" or "Lack of opportunity for professional growth," or even "poor project management" but having been down that path before, it's a Sisyphean task.  HR won't care what you write--they're only doing it because it's part of the procedure, and they're not the decision-makers, so your feedback is irrelevant to them.  And Management  is unlikely to care, either--they're too wrapped up in other things to read an exiting employee's feedback.  From what I've seen/read/heard, the only way to force a change is to either A) get into management yourself, or B) become such a key employee (i.e. indispensable AND known and respected a couple layers up) that you have some leverage, and even then, you're unlikely to effect any change.

What I'd suggest is 1) document EVERYTHING, and store it offsite, 2) network with the people who ARE competent.  Who knows, maybe your new employer will be awesome, and also need to hire more people, and you could help your new employer snipe/rescue some people from your old workplace.

former player

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3336 on: October 18, 2020, 02:42:35 AM »
You don't share any of it.    You go completely bland: "I have enjoyed being able to make a contribution to the success of [project] and wish the company well for the future."

2sk22

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3337 on: October 18, 2020, 04:51:01 AM »
You don't share any of it.    You go completely bland: "I have enjoyed being able to make a contribution to the success of [project] and wish the company well for the future."

Completely agree. There is no advantage to be gained by being honest in an exit interview, no matter how angry you feel about the company you are departing.

NorCal

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3338 on: October 18, 2020, 07:00:24 AM »
You don't share any of it.    You go completely bland: "I have enjoyed being able to make a contribution to the success of [project] and wish the company well for the future."

Completely agree. There is no advantage to be gained by being honest in an exit interview, no matter how angry you feel about the company you are departing.

Agree. If you feel the need/desire to share, you can do it anonymously on a site like Glassdoor. In my experience, management will actually pay more attention to this than the silly exit interview surveys.

saguaro

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3339 on: October 18, 2020, 07:34:15 AM »
You don't share any of it.    You go completely bland: "I have enjoyed being able to make a contribution to the success of [project] and wish the company well for the future."

Completely agree. There is no advantage to be gained by being honest in an exit interview, no matter how angry you feel about the company you are departing.

Agree. If you feel the need/desire to share, you can do it anonymously on a site like Glassdoor. In my experience, management will actually pay more attention to this than the silly exit interview surveys.

Yep, exactly what I did when I left the Big Company.   I kept things pretty bland in the exit interview, which was over the phone because the Big Company outsourced even that function by then and the person on the other end was obviously pretty disengaged with the whole thing.  Some time later I posted on Glassdoor addressing the basic issues at the company, but gave no specific details to my situation.

Also when I left, even when people try to guess my real reasons (such as my boss, who could be pretty difficult) I kept it to the blandest reason possible.

ETA: Nobody believed that I was leaving without a job lined up, which I was.  2 months later, when I was hired by the division spun off from the Big Company, some were convinced that had been my plan but wasn't. 
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 11:39:00 AM by saguaro »

Sibley

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3340 on: October 18, 2020, 09:56:59 AM »
And also - just forget to do that survey thing. Seriously. What are they going to do, fire you?

NumberJohnny5

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3341 on: October 18, 2020, 10:06:47 AM »
And also - just forget to do that survey thing. Seriously. What are they going to do, fire you?

"Why did you leave your last job?"

"I was fired because I didn't show up for the exit interview."

"...."

blurkraken22

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3342 on: October 18, 2020, 08:49:52 PM »
Thanks for the advice. I have indeed gone super bland in filling out their forms.

A funny, but not funny addition to my exit interview story. The subject of HR portal task is:

Subject: Terminate: blurkraken22

Is there some repressed agression hidden there? LOL. My last mission is to explain to HR why that is a terrible subject to ever send to a human being.

Long gone are the days of idealism when I thought it was HR's mission to treat us like humans.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 11:10:15 PM by blurkraken22 »

Adventine

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3343 on: October 19, 2020, 01:58:34 AM »
I work in HR and on behalf of all those trying to treat employees like human beings and not like pixels on a screen, I am sorry. How awful.

Enjoy your new found freedom!

Thanks for the advice. I have indeed gone super bland in filling out their forms.

A funny, but not funny addition to my exit interview story. The subject of HR portal task is:

Subject: Terminate: blurkraken22

Is there some repressed agression hidden there? LOL. My last mission is to explain to HR why that is a terrible subject to ever send to a human being.

Long gone are the days of idealism when I thought it was HR's mission to treat us like humans.

blurkraken22

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3344 on: October 19, 2020, 02:37:44 AM »
I work in HR and on behalf of all those trying to treat employees like human beings and not like pixels on a screen, I am sorry. How awful.

Enjoy your new found freedom!
How does HR experience impact your read on this entire thread?

LennStar

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3345 on: October 19, 2020, 03:37:40 AM »
Thanks for the advice. I have indeed gone super bland in filling out their forms.

A funny, but not funny addition to my exit interview story. The subject of HR portal task is:

Subject: Terminate: blurkraken22

Is there some repressed agression hidden there? LOL. My last mission is to explain to HR why that is a terrible subject to ever send to a human being.

Long gone are the days of idealism when I thought it was HR's mission to treat us like humans.

Could have been worse. Like "Terminate and hide" or "...cut off".

Adventine

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3346 on: October 19, 2020, 03:54:14 AM »
I work in HR and on behalf of all those trying to treat employees like human beings and not like pixels on a screen, I am sorry. How awful.

Enjoy your new found freedom!
How does HR experience impact your read on this entire thread?

I've been avidly following this thread for years, not through an HR lens, but through a FIRE lens. I'm off-duty when I'm on the MMM forums :)

Dicey

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3347 on: October 19, 2020, 04:17:32 AM »
I work in HR and on behalf of all those trying to treat employees like human beings and not like pixels on a screen, I am sorry. How awful.

Enjoy your new found freedom!
How does HR experience impact your read on this entire thread?

I've been avidly following this thread for years, not through an HR lens, but through a FIRE lens. I'm off-duty when I'm on the MMM forums :)
Nice to see you posting outside the journals section, @Adventine! I'm used to "seeing" you there and it made me smile to see your posts on this thread today. Go, you!

rockstache

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3348 on: October 19, 2020, 04:20:02 AM »
I work in HR and on behalf of all those trying to treat employees like human beings and not like pixels on a screen, I am sorry. How awful.

Enjoy your new found freedom!
How does HR experience impact your read on this entire thread?

I've been avidly following this thread for years, not through an HR lens, but through a FIRE lens.
+1 I'm in HR too, but both here and at work, I'm basically always rooting for people, even when I have to do my job around them. We had a guy leave a toxic manager last month, for a great position and I was privately thrilled for him. Although I gave him the standard line, "We wish you all the best in your future endeavors," I really meant it. I did my job in a professional manner, but I don't run HR or the company. Everyone knows that manager is toxic, and there are 3 more good employees getting set to leave because of him too, but he's got the backing of some high level execs that love him and there's not a thing I could ever do about it.

Adventine

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Re: Epic FU money stories
« Reply #3349 on: October 19, 2020, 05:03:02 AM »
I work in HR and on behalf of all those trying to treat employees like human beings and not like pixels on a screen, I am sorry. How awful.

Enjoy your new found freedom!
How does HR experience impact your read on this entire thread?

I've been avidly following this thread for years, not through an HR lens, but through a FIRE lens. I'm off-duty when I'm on the MMM forums :)
Nice to see you posting outside the journals section, @Adventine! I'm used to "seeing" you there and it made me smile to see your posts on this thread today. Go, you!

Oh, I'm always lurking in this thread. It's one of my all time faves ;)

I work in HR and on behalf of all those trying to treat employees like human beings and not like pixels on a screen, I am sorry. How awful.

Enjoy your new found freedom!
How does HR experience impact your read on this entire thread?

I've been avidly following this thread for years, not through an HR lens, but through a FIRE lens.
+1 I'm in HR too, but both here and at work, I'm basically always rooting for people, even when I have to do my job around them. We had a guy leave a toxic manager last month, for a great position and I was privately thrilled for him. Although I gave him the standard line, "We wish you all the best in your future endeavors," I really meant it. I did my job in a professional manner, but I don't run HR or the company. Everyone knows that manager is toxic, and there are 3 more good employees getting set to leave because of him too, but he's got the backing of some high level execs that love him and there's not a thing I could ever do about it.

Exactly right - I do my job as professionally as I can. But I don't set policy, I don't make hiring/firing decisions, and I try to put myself in the other person's shoes as much as I can.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!