Author Topic: Is Tesla a good investment?  (Read 620018 times)

Telecaster

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4195
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3200 on: June 05, 2025, 11:33:12 AM »
The story of automation replacing human jobs is long, long, long one.   I don't see that trend changing.  But for that most part jobs that are easy to automate already have been automated.   I'm skeptical we're a couple months or a couple years away from a general purpose robot that can replace millions of humans.   The recent Optimus videos showing the robot doing every day tasks is impressive, but it is still very clumsy compared to a human.   It isn't nearly ready to bag groceries.   


reeshau

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3902
  • Location: Houston, TX Former locations: Detroit, Indianapolis, Dublin
  • FIRE'd Jan 2020
Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3201 on: June 05, 2025, 11:38:42 AM »
One thought:

If Optimus is the ultimate robotic form, why in the world are we working on autonomous cars?  We should all just be buying Optimus chauffeurs, who can drive normal cars around, then put the groceries away.

reeshau

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3902
  • Location: Houston, TX Former locations: Detroit, Indianapolis, Dublin
  • FIRE'd Jan 2020
Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3202 on: June 05, 2025, 11:50:31 AM »
Just a couple random thoughts -

1.  Tesla kills someone during the limited Austin rollout of FSD (not far fetched given their relatively recent track record).  Nobody is going to want a 150 lb humanoid robot in their house designed by that company.

2.  There is a successful cyber attack that leads folks to question overreliance on automation (Every Cyber Attack Facing America).  AI could help bring this zero day hack to fruition and America is making a lot of enemies.  If that happens, see point 1 quite likely scaled up.

I'm just waiting to hear about Tesla's service on the first day there is a "gully washer" rainstorm in Austin.  It will be a significant disincentive to have a rideshare service that can't operate in the heavy rain, or that has to interrupt rides in progress.

It can be 99% perfect.  But if that 1% is fatal, to the service or the car, it will be a differentiator or could kill the service.  And yes, the brand identity will transfer to the other products.  Something like that might not be immediately fatal, but it certainly gives openings to competitors.

Have you ever ridden in a Tesla using FSD v13 during a rainstorm? I'm curious. Have you ever be driven around on v13 period?

I have and it was a non-issue. I rode through heavy rain and the car performed flawlessly. Is there a point where even v13 can't operate in a torrential downpour? Of course, but it's at roughly the same point a human driver should put on the hazards and pull over to wait it out.

As I have said before, I am an automotive engineer.  I have not only driven in recent autonomous Teslas, but in other autonomous vehicles and their predecessors since 2002.

Have you ever read Nassim Taleb's The Black Swan?  I would particularly pay attention to what he has to say about confirmation bias.

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5232
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3203 on: June 05, 2025, 04:15:19 PM »
I certainly hope the Robotaxi is better than v13 FSD or else it is geofenced in tightly controlled conditions with some failsafe for a human to take over somehow...  People are still reporting having to grab the wheel and having FSD do unexpected actions, but the expectation is that the driver is paying attention (or otherwise FSD scolds you and potentially turns off).

We will wait and see how Austin turns out, my guess is that the rollout will be so limited that success will be an unimpressively low bar.  Where Tesla goes from there remains to be seen, maybe the rollout is just super duper slow and everything is OK.

Meanwhile, TSLA the stock is crashing.  I guess the inevitable Musk-Trump feud has erupted, with both egos going supernova!  I have my Galactus bucket of popcorn ready, this will probably go on for a while...  possibly with Trump sicc'ing the NHTSA on Musk right before Austin is even rolled out.

ColoradoTribe

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 485
Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3204 on: June 05, 2025, 04:52:05 PM »
One thought:

If Optimus is the ultimate robotic form, why in the world are we working on autonomous cars?  We should all just be buying Optimus chauffeurs, who can drive normal cars around, then put the groceries away.

I dunno about "ultimate" by the built world is made for the human form, our general dimensions, human sight, opposable thumbs, bipedal locomotion. It makes sense that a humanoid robot combined with artificial intelligence that mimic humans' biological intelligence would be a smart way to provide for general labor in the human world.

As for Optimus chauffeurs, I think that was meant tongue in cheek. It could work, but the real answer is EV + autonomous software and hardware is cheaper than EV + Optimus. And as with humans, Optimus is limited to one forward facing camera, whereas the robotaxi AI brain is attached to eight cameras that see in all directions at once.

dividendman

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2399
Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3205 on: June 05, 2025, 04:56:11 PM »
I certainly hope the Robotaxi is better than v13 FSD or else it is geofenced in tightly controlled conditions with some failsafe for a human to take over somehow...  People are still reporting having to grab the wheel and having FSD do unexpected actions, but the expectation is that the driver is paying attention (or otherwise FSD scolds you and potentially turns off).

We will wait and see how Austin turns out, my guess is that the rollout will be so limited that success will be an unimpressively low bar.  Where Tesla goes from there remains to be seen, maybe the rollout is just super duper slow and everything is OK.

Meanwhile, TSLA the stock is crashing.  I guess the inevitable Musk-Trump feud has erupted, with both egos going supernova!  I have my Galactus bucket of popcorn ready, this will probably go on for a while...  possibly with Trump sicc'ing the NHTSA on Musk right before Austin is even rolled out.

The Trump Musk meltdown allowed me to sell half my August $250 put for almost 4x. Kept half my position since I've already made a good profit. Sept, Dec and June 2026 $150s looking good! Way up on all my puts now even if the remaining go to zero. If the bill gets through and Trump keeps up the attack I think we'll see it down around $50 in a bit...

ColoradoTribe

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 485
Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3206 on: June 05, 2025, 04:56:52 PM »
I certainly hope the Robotaxi is better than v13 FSD or else it is geofenced in tightly controlled conditions with some failsafe for a human to take over somehow...  People are still reporting having to grab the wheel and having FSD do unexpected actions, but the expectation is that the driver is paying attention (or otherwise FSD scolds you and potentially turns off).

We will wait and see how Austin turns out, my guess is that the rollout will be so limited that success will be an unimpressively low bar.  Where Tesla goes from there remains to be seen, maybe the rollout is just super duper slow and everything is OK.

Meanwhile, TSLA the stock is crashing.  I guess the inevitable Musk-Trump feud has erupted, with both egos going supernova!  I have my Galactus bucket of popcorn ready, this will probably go on for a while...  possibly with Trump sicc'ing the NHTSA on Musk right before Austin is even rolled out.

Today was a buying day. Stock was dumping on no material news and on the eve of robotaxi roll out.

dividendman

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2399
Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3207 on: June 05, 2025, 05:00:33 PM »
I certainly hope the Robotaxi is better than v13 FSD or else it is geofenced in tightly controlled conditions with some failsafe for a human to take over somehow...  People are still reporting having to grab the wheel and having FSD do unexpected actions, but the expectation is that the driver is paying attention (or otherwise FSD scolds you and potentially turns off).

We will wait and see how Austin turns out, my guess is that the rollout will be so limited that success will be an unimpressively low bar.  Where Tesla goes from there remains to be seen, maybe the rollout is just super duper slow and everything is OK.

Meanwhile, TSLA the stock is crashing.  I guess the inevitable Musk-Trump feud has erupted, with both egos going supernova!  I have my Galactus bucket of popcorn ready, this will probably go on for a while...  possibly with Trump sicc'ing the NHTSA on Musk right before Austin is even rolled out.

Today was a buying day. Stock was dumping on no material news and on the eve of robotaxi roll out.

I wouldn't say the federal government targeting TSLA isn't material.

ColoradoTribe

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 485
Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3208 on: June 05, 2025, 05:08:44 PM »
Just a couple random thoughts -

1.  Tesla kills someone during the limited Austin rollout of FSD (not far fetched given their relatively recent track record).  Nobody is going to want a 150 lb humanoid robot in their house designed by that company.

2.  There is a successful cyber attack that leads folks to question overreliance on automation (Every Cyber Attack Facing America).  AI could help bring this zero day hack to fruition and America is making a lot of enemies.  If that happens, see point 1 quite likely scaled up.

I'm just waiting to hear about Tesla's service on the first day there is a "gully washer" rainstorm in Austin.  It will be a significant disincentive to have a rideshare service that can't operate in the heavy rain, or that has to interrupt rides in progress.

It can be 99% perfect.  But if that 1% is fatal, to the service or the car, it will be a differentiator or could kill the service.  And yes, the brand identity will transfer to the other products.  Something like that might not be immediately fatal, but it certainly gives openings to competitors.

Have you ever ridden in a Tesla using FSD v13 during a rainstorm? I'm curious. Have you ever be driven around on v13 period?

I have and it was a non-issue. I rode through heavy rain and the car performed flawlessly. Is there a point where even v13 can't operate in a torrential downpour? Of course, but it's at roughly the same point a human driver should put on the hazards and pull over to wait it out.

As I have said before, I am an automotive engineer.  I have not only driven in recent autonomous Teslas, but in other autonomous vehicles and their predecessors since 2002.

Have you ever read Nassim Taleb's The Black Swan?  I would particularly pay attention to what he has to say about confirmation bias.

Not sure if "recent autonomous" means v13 or earlier versions, but the difference between v12 and v13 is wide. Regardless, I have driven v13 in the rain. It handles the rain well, almost as well as a human driver. It takes a significant downpour to cause the FSD to disengage. The level required is pretty rare and presents conditions that most drivers would avoid or wait out if they can. The level of downpour is also such that the down period would be brief (5-10 minutes) or the streets would be flooded and undrivable if the downpour continued for longer than that. Not a deal breaker IMO and Waymo with radar would fair worse.

We all bring bias. I am aware of mine and challenge my own bias with countervailing facts. Why else expose myself to this bear echo chamber :)  I'm sure a former auto engineer that presumably worked for legacy auto on combustion engines vehicles might bring some bias of their own to the table along with some expertise.

ColoradoTribe

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 485
Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3209 on: June 05, 2025, 05:16:45 PM »
I certainly hope the Robotaxi is better than v13 FSD or else it is geofenced in tightly controlled conditions with some failsafe for a human to take over somehow...  People are still reporting having to grab the wheel and having FSD do unexpected actions, but the expectation is that the driver is paying attention (or otherwise FSD scolds you and potentially turns off).

We will wait and see how Austin turns out, my guess is that the rollout will be so limited that success will be an unimpressively low bar.  Where Tesla goes from there remains to be seen, maybe the rollout is just super duper slow and everything is OK.

Meanwhile, TSLA the stock is crashing.  I guess the inevitable Musk-Trump feud has erupted, with both egos going supernova!  I have my Galactus bucket of popcorn ready, this will probably go on for a while...  possibly with Trump sicc'ing the NHTSA on Musk right before Austin is even rolled out.

Today was a buying day. Stock was dumping on no material news and on the eve of robotaxi roll out.

I wouldn't say the federal government targeting TSLA isn't material.

How is the federal government targeting Tesla? I ignored the noise when the stock went up to an ATH because everyone thought Tesla would benefit from Trump. I'll ignore this as well until there is an actual government policy change affecting Tesla and not just fear mongering. Trying to trade based on what Trump might do tomorrow is a fools errand.


reeshau

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3902
  • Location: Houston, TX Former locations: Detroit, Indianapolis, Dublin
  • FIRE'd Jan 2020
Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3210 on: June 05, 2025, 05:21:40 PM »
I certainly hope the Robotaxi is better than v13 FSD or else it is geofenced in tightly controlled conditions with some failsafe for a human to take over somehow...  People are still reporting having to grab the wheel and having FSD do unexpected actions, but the expectation is that the driver is paying attention (or otherwise FSD scolds you and potentially turns off).

We will wait and see how Austin turns out, my guess is that the rollout will be so limited that success will be an unimpressively low bar.  Where Tesla goes from there remains to be seen, maybe the rollout is just super duper slow and everything is OK.

Meanwhile, TSLA the stock is crashing.  I guess the inevitable Musk-Trump feud has erupted, with both egos going supernova!  I have my Galactus bucket of popcorn ready, this will probably go on for a while...  possibly with Trump sicc'ing the NHTSA on Musk right before Austin is even rolled out.

Today was a buying day. Stock was dumping on no material news and on the eve of robotaxi roll out.

I wouldn't say the federal government targeting TSLA isn't material.

How is the federal government targeting Tesla? I ignored the noise when the stock went up to an ATH because everyone thought Tesla would benefit from Trump. I'll ignore this as well until there is an actual government policy change affecting Tesla and not just fear mongering. Trying to trade based on what Trump might do tomorrow is a fools errand.

While I generally agree with the problems with trading on Trump's threats, specifically threatening a line item that is 145% of Tesla's Q1 earnings is understandably worrying for shareholders.  Particularly with no positive earnings catalyst on the near horizon.

Telecaster

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4195
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3211 on: June 05, 2025, 06:03:06 PM »
As I have said before, I am an automotive engineer.  I have not only driven in recent autonomous Teslas, but in other autonomous vehicles and their predecessors since 2002.

How would you rate the various systems and what are the biggest improvements needed? 

reeshau

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3902
  • Location: Houston, TX Former locations: Detroit, Indianapolis, Dublin
  • FIRE'd Jan 2020
Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3212 on: June 06, 2025, 07:11:20 AM »
As I have said before, I am an automotive engineer.  I have not only driven in recent autonomous Teslas, but in other autonomous vehicles and their predecessors since 2002.

How would you rate the various systems and what are the biggest improvements needed?

I think there are many systems that can manage milk run / suburban commute runs in good lighting and good weather.  It's not just the cars that have improved since the DARPA Grand Challenge in 2004, but a lot of technologies that have matured along with them:  GPU's, of course, but also mapping apps and data quality, 3G -> 4G -> 5G mobile phones, sensors, including low cost, high-res cameras, lower cost, high-res radar, and yes liars, smart infrastructure, which some solutions interact with / rely on, etc.

I have not yet ridden in a BYD AV.  If you take the easy pick to say it's Waymo vs. Tesla, with everyone else's future quite speculative because they have limited commitment or pockets that aren't as deep, you can clearly see two schools of thought.  Waymo is very much an engineering solution, that isn't as worried about its looks or pace, as much as accomplishing it's mission.  It is by no means perfect, but they are methodical in their approach.  Take highway driving, for instance.  Clearly, the stakes are higher because crashes are more severe at speed.  It also pits a challenge to sensors and their range, because (stationary) objects approach the car faster, from the sensors viewpoint, and the car has less time to process reactions.  Waymo has been driving on hjghways since early last year, and got clearance to drive to SFO last November.  They have not begun to do do that commercially yet, as they are still mapping that unique environment.

If you had to characterize the experience in a Waymo, you would say it's "cautious."  And it is, maybe even hesitant at some points.  If you are confident enough that you aren't paying attention, you might not notice.  If you yourself are an aggressive driver, you might get annoyed at the wasted time.  This isn't because their sensors are worse (they are much better) or they lack processing power.  It's a conscious choice; as conscious as Tesla's aggression.

Tesla is Tesla, and it's not a secret I have problems with their approach.  But, make no mistake, they have come a long way, and do a lot with their minimalist suite.  I hate, hate, hate the false advertising that is the name Full Self Drive.  An Optimist would call it simply aspirational, but taken with Elon's constant promising and unofficial comments, I think it lulls early adopters into trusting the system more than they should, which gives rupiae to Darwin Award-winning stunts like taking your friend for a ride in the back seat, or getting decapitated because Harry Potter was too interesting to pay attention to the semi crossing the road.

Besides catastrophic failures, Teslas are generally more aggressive.  This is selectable, to some extent, but even "successful" drive videos (with no interventions) you regularly see Teslas doing 70 mph in a 55, full speed in a school zone, questionable stops, etc.  No other automotive company on the planet would have a car push limits like that.  That could make a capitalist see an opportunity, and for sure small, aftermarket companies have provided engine chipsets that cheat emissions regulations for the sake of power for decades.  But, the liability for tickets, the possibility of class action or government intervention, etc. are apparent to all.  And, I don't think Tesla misses this; they have chosen legal positioning as aggressive as the driving, on purpose.  You can do that, for a while, when you're cool.

A lot of people think 13.2.8 (and now 9) has become somewhat more cautious, which is interesting because they were looking to address the tweaks I had been posting about recently, with the school zones, slow running of reds, and stops in general.  Maybe there is some tipping point they are working around, but many enthusiasts seem to feel the difference.  Will that behavior be criticized by fans?  I actually see it as an interesting meta signal: maybe, with commercial operation (and full liability) approaching, Tesla is growing up.

While I am no fan of Tesla, I do hope their launch goes well.  Fender benders and getting stuck in parking lots are funny for observers.  But fatalities by anybody set the whole industry back.  That is really what Tesla risks, with its envelope-pushing.

reeshau

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3902
  • Location: Houston, TX Former locations: Detroit, Indianapolis, Dublin
  • FIRE'd Jan 2020
Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3213 on: June 06, 2025, 07:44:44 AM »
I will add that I have not been in any autonomous semi, although I have seen them in operation.  The Aurora test is happening very close to me, so maybe I will take some time and tail them for a while.  I always thought trucking was a great introductory case for autonomy: the business case is clear, unlike with passenger cars.

I also dislike the public perception of the SAE Autonomy levels.  A 5 level definition is standard management consultant / standards org speak.  But people think "oh, we're at level 3.  Of course we should be getting a car with no steering wheel by next year.  Level 4 is around the corner!"  Better, for understanding, to represent these as the orders of magnitude that they are.  "Oh, we just reached level 100.  How long until we see level 1,000?"

A fair weather system can be very useful.  But people will reserve their enthusiasm, and be on guard, as they consider using it.  Believing a system has been fully designed for anything you may encounter on the road, rather than a system that is still learning, and everyone who comes after you will be grateful for your sacrifice, is a dangerous difference.  You can handle heavy rain?  Can you handle it at night?  What is your reaction to a drunk driver, or a student driver?  How about a blizzard?

Being useful, and part of an ecosystem of transportation, is one thing.  It could be transformative for people with disabilities, or for seniors who shouldn't be behind the wheel anymore.  (Although the latter are rarely early adopters)  But to expect this will somehow take over everything in the next decade grossly underestimates the difficulty of the whole problem and the resources needed to overcome it.

At this point, Tesla could be a very successful company, and shareholders buying today could still have a very bad investment.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2025, 07:47:35 AM by reeshau »

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5232
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3214 on: June 06, 2025, 08:08:16 AM »
I'm also curious to see if the TSLA backlash hits the Austin Robotaxi rollout...  Dealership attacks seem to have subsided, but sabotage of the Austin rollout could be a lot harder to detect and a higher prize...  I am in no way hoping for a TSLA failure and I have made nice profits off of trading the momentum of the stock, mainly in the upward direction.  Trying to catch the pullbacks, no matter how ripe the stock is for shorting, is much harder than riding the crazy gains.

Even by Musk's own admission in the last earning call, the company could be on the edge of insolvency and clinging to life if this Robotaxi business is a failure, since the car selling part of the business is in free fall and competition is eating their lunch.

Telecaster

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4195
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3215 on: June 06, 2025, 10:10:34 AM »
Even by Musk's own admission in the last earning call, the company could be on the edge of insolvency and clinging to life if this Robotaxi business is a failure, since the car selling part of the business is in free fall and competition is eating their lunch.

I interpreted it differently.   I thought he was saying the company is fine, but the robotaxi business will significantly move the needle by 2026.   Musk is predicting S shaped growth.  Once it takes off, it will really take off, he says.   

The first part tracks.   Although Tesla is losing sales and marketshare they were still profitable last quarter and have plenty of cash.   Shareholders should be concerned moving forward though.   No new models have been announced, and the cybertruck is flop.  But it isn't unusual for car companies to have a few bad quarters.   There is still plenty of time to turn the car business around. 

 I'm skeptical about the robotaxi timeline though.   It typically takes Waymo about 12-18 months to obtain AV ride hailing permits, although that process is accelerating.   To meet Musk's timeline Tesla would need to be in the permit process right now.  For S shaped growth to start next year, lots of markets need to be robotaxi ready, and they aren't.   

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5232
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3216 on: June 06, 2025, 10:45:06 AM »
These last two quarters have been boosted to profitability by a Bitcoin credit and EV credits, otherwise they were marginally unprofitable.  Loss of EV credits, in the current state of declining sales is a big hit.  But yes, TSLA has loads of cash.

Profits by quarter - https://www.statista.com/chart/23535/quarterly-profit-of-tesla/

Tesla takes a $600M gain Q4 2024 - https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-did-not-increase-bitcoin-192256078.html

Quote
The EV maker generated $692 million from selling regulatory credits in the last quarter of 2024 alone. It accounted for nearly 30% of its quarterly net income of $2.33 billion.
- https://carboncredits.com/teslas-carbon-credits-crash-in-q1-2025-earnings-drop-and-ev-sales-fall/

Telecaster

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4195
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3217 on: June 06, 2025, 12:32:06 PM »
Tesla's free cash flow is still in good shape (but declining) and they have plenty of cash on hand.  So I think they will be okay for a while.  But I agree with your main point.   They need to start turning things around.   

And I just saw this.  No interest financing on the cybertruck if you purchase FSD. 

https://electrek.co/2025/06/05/tesla-goes-full-desperate-cybertruck-with-biggest-discount-yet/

sonofsven

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2634
Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3218 on: June 06, 2025, 02:27:45 PM »
Tesla's free cash flow is still in good shape (but declining) and they have plenty of cash on hand.  So I think they will be okay for a while.  But I agree with your main point.   They need to start turning things around.   

And I just saw this.  No interest financing on the cybertruck if you purchase FSD. 

https://electrek.co/2025/06/05/tesla-goes-full-desperate-cybertruck-with-biggest-discount-yet/

Hmm, cybertruck and no interest. Yep, that pretty much sums it up.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!