Author Topic: Is Tesla a good investment?  (Read 417370 times)

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2400 on: May 06, 2024, 01:22:26 PM »
Is Musk still pushing to receive a 56 billion dollar pay package this year?

https://qz.com/tesla-elon-musk-investors-approve-compensation-pay-plan-1851415316

yes, and it is up for shareholder vote. I will be voting against it.

I do appreciate musk working tirelessly for the promotion of tesla and all, (athough not his penchant for assholery) but I think being in the top of the wealthiest people in the world/history of the world is enough compensation. If he wants to be richer - he can increase the value of the share he already has. Just my opinoin.

The layoffs do seem extremely punitive and retaliatory. If cuts need to be made for a bad quarter - let it come from the top. How many sales have been lost due to his own need to air the polution in his mind and call it truth? He is more responsible for it than anyone, again my opinoin.

I still think tech wise tesla is heading in a good direction and if in fact musk's vision quests are a key part to tesla's future success, so be it. But if so - let him be only the visionary CEO and get a competent COO to run the organization and make day to day decisions. I don't like workers getting laid off willy nilly while he is seeking billions in compensation for himself. Um - you failed too buddy.

And I wish the board would censure him for his twitter rants that are definitely hurting tesla's bottom line these days.


bacchi

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2401 on: May 10, 2024, 09:15:00 AM »
Musk claims that Tesla will be spending $500M on expanding the SC network this year. That's good news for all EVs but it's looking more and more like the SC layoffs were a spiteful act against someone who questioned his wisdom. Or...he uses X and press feedback on how to run Tesla. Enough people were like, "WTF?", and he backtracked.

As the latest exec to leave Tesla (the 7th recently?) said, "it’s hard to see the long game." With Musk in charge, that's true.

FINate

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2402 on: May 10, 2024, 12:20:04 PM »
As the latest exec to leave Tesla (the 7th recently?) said, "it’s hard to see the long game." With Musk in charge, that's true.

It's somewhat unusual for a departing executive to criticize the company on the way out. Doing so can be risky and career limiting. This guy must have been extremely unhappy and/or figures Musk's brand is so toxic that essentially saying I don't agree with how Musk is running things works in his favor.

NorCal

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2403 on: May 11, 2024, 10:06:22 AM »
Taking a step back and looking at the investment picture while ignoring the Elon Musk picture:

Q1 Revenue: Down 9% compared with Q123
Q1 Net Income: Down 55% compared with Q123

All external indications like massive layoffs and chaotic downsizing indicates a a lack in confidence in the future revenue growth.  It's an indication we're more likely to see continued revenue declines instead of revenue growth.  It's up to management to prove me wrong on that one. 

They are trying (and somewhat succeeding) at being valued like a tech growth company when the underlying financials show the opposite.

While the financial picture probably could be improved by activist investors, I don't see the activist investor crowd taking much interest until the stock falls to a much lower level. 

FireLane

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2404 on: May 14, 2024, 06:09:00 AM »
Two weeks after firing the entire Supercharger team, Musk wants to hire some of them back:

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/05/tesla-does-180-on-superchargers-rehiring-laid-off-staff-amid-new-plans/

This seems like ordinary Musk management-by-chaos, making a stupid decision without thinking and then seeking to undo it. However, it also appears that Tesla has removed all job postings in the U.S.:

https://qz.com/tesla-hiring-freeze-job-postings-elon-musk-layoffs-1851463668

I don't think Tesla is a distressed company, but it's sure acting like one.

achvfi

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2405 on: May 14, 2024, 01:48:08 PM »
What a sick joke. I cant imagine what employees are going through. 

Maybe they are implementing what they learnt from twitter saga. Fire big chunk of workforce, hire some back and then fire them again in few weeks. Twitterization of Tesla.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2406 on: May 14, 2024, 02:06:05 PM »
What a sick joke. I cant imagine what employees are going through. 

Maybe they are implementing what they learnt from twitter saga. Fire big chunk of workforce, hire some back and then fire them again in few weeks. Twitterization of Tesla.
Maybe the idea is to motivate everyone to work harder to get good reviews so that they won't be among those cut?

Another possibility is that Tesla has become one of those companies which targets a bottom % of their employees to fire every year as a matter of policy.

Still, if I was a talented engineer or developer or whatever at Tesla this climate of fear-based motivation would encourage me to check out some local startups. The real suckers are the ones who bought houses near these remote factories and are now mortgage-locked.

FireLane

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2407 on: May 15, 2024, 03:22:03 PM »
According to new reporting by Reuters, there was no strategy behind Musk's decision to lay off the Supercharger team. It was an act of pure spite against Rebecca Tinucci, the head of the division, because she refused to be a yes-woman:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside-story-elon-musks-mass-firings-tesla-supercharger-staff-2024-05-15/

Quote
The day before Elon Musk fired virtually all of Tesla’s electric-vehicle charging division last month, they had high hopes as charging chief Rebecca Tinucci went to meet with Musk about the network’s future, four former charging-network staffers told Reuters.

After Tinucci had cut between 15% and 20% of staffers two weeks earlier, part of much wider layoffs, they believed Musk would affirm plans for a massive charging-network expansion.

The meeting could not have gone worse. Musk, the employees said, was not pleased with Tinucci’s presentation and wanted more layoffs. When she balked, saying deeper cuts would undermine charging-business fundamentals, he responded by firing her and her entire 500-member team.

Not to keep dumping on Musk all the time, but really... in any discussion about whether or not to invest in Tesla, he's by far the biggest risk factor. He's willing to trash an entire, profitable division of his own company just to prove he's the boss and he can do what he wants.

NorCal

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2408 on: May 15, 2024, 04:49:24 PM »
According to new reporting by Reuters, there was no strategy behind Musk's decision to lay off the Supercharger team. It was an act of pure spite against Rebecca Tinucci, the head of the division, because she refused to be a yes-woman:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside-story-elon-musks-mass-firings-tesla-supercharger-staff-2024-05-15/

Quote
The day before Elon Musk fired virtually all of Tesla’s electric-vehicle charging division last month, they had high hopes as charging chief Rebecca Tinucci went to meet with Musk about the network’s future, four former charging-network staffers told Reuters.

After Tinucci had cut between 15% and 20% of staffers two weeks earlier, part of much wider layoffs, they believed Musk would affirm plans for a massive charging-network expansion.

The meeting could not have gone worse. Musk, the employees said, was not pleased with Tinucci’s presentation and wanted more layoffs. When she balked, saying deeper cuts would undermine charging-business fundamentals, he responded by firing her and her entire 500-member team.

Not to keep dumping on Musk all the time, but really... in any discussion about whether or not to invest in Tesla, he's by far the biggest risk factor. He's willing to trash an entire, profitable division of his own company just to prove he's the boss and he can do what he wants.

I'll use this as one potential justification for investing in Tesla.

There's probably a good bit of upside if he gets kicked to the curb.

We'll also see what happens with his compensation package.  Per the WSJ, it looks like institutional shareholders are voting against the pay package by a healthy margin.

Keep in mind the sheer scale of this package.  Taking the $56B number at face value (which is dangerous when talking about options), this is ~10% of the entire company.  If this package is turned down, each Tesla shareholder will own roughly ~10% more of the company than they otherwise would.  While the word "unprecedented" gets thrown around a lot these days, I think it really applies here. 

It doesn't change my negative take on the company.  But it is fairly telling that the biggest bull case for the stock is that the CEO gets fired and his fraudulent pay package gets turned down.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2409 on: May 16, 2024, 08:46:56 AM »
According to new reporting by Reuters, there was no strategy behind Musk's decision to lay off the Supercharger team. It was an act of pure spite against Rebecca Tinucci, the head of the division, because she refused to be a yes-woman:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside-story-elon-musks-mass-firings-tesla-supercharger-staff-2024-05-15/

Quote
The day before Elon Musk fired virtually all of Tesla’s electric-vehicle charging division last month, they had high hopes as charging chief Rebecca Tinucci went to meet with Musk about the network’s future, four former charging-network staffers told Reuters.

After Tinucci had cut between 15% and 20% of staffers two weeks earlier, part of much wider layoffs, they believed Musk would affirm plans for a massive charging-network expansion.

The meeting could not have gone worse. Musk, the employees said, was not pleased with Tinucci’s presentation and wanted more layoffs. When she balked, saying deeper cuts would undermine charging-business fundamentals, he responded by firing her and her entire 500-member team.

Not to keep dumping on Musk all the time, but really... in any discussion about whether or not to invest in Tesla, he's by far the biggest risk factor. He's willing to trash an entire, profitable division of his own company just to prove he's the boss and he can do what he wants.

I'll use this as one potential justification for investing in Tesla.

There's probably a good bit of upside if he gets kicked to the curb.

We'll also see what happens with his compensation package.  Per the WSJ, it looks like institutional shareholders are voting against the pay package by a healthy margin.

Keep in mind the sheer scale of this package.  Taking the $56B number at face value (which is dangerous when talking about options), this is ~10% of the entire company.  If this package is turned down, each Tesla shareholder will own roughly ~10% more of the company than they otherwise would.  While the word "unprecedented" gets thrown around a lot these days, I think it really applies here. 

It doesn't change my negative take on the company.  But it is fairly telling that the biggest bull case for the stock is that the CEO gets fired and his fraudulent pay package gets turned down.
For Musk to be "fired" I think he'd first have to reduce his 13% stake in the company and death grip on the Board. That's a possibility, especially if Twitter continues to suck or if Tesla stock falls to the point his loans are called. Musk also has one foot in Open AI, and could decide to exit the boring and frustrating engineering limitations of making cars to get into the business of generative AI.

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2410 on: May 16, 2024, 08:53:16 AM »
According to new reporting by Reuters, there was no strategy behind Musk's decision to lay off the Supercharger team. It was an act of pure spite against Rebecca Tinucci, the head of the division, because she refused to be a yes-woman:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside-story-elon-musks-mass-firings-tesla-supercharger-staff-2024-05-15/

Quote
The day before Elon Musk fired virtually all of Tesla’s electric-vehicle charging division last month, they had high hopes as charging chief Rebecca Tinucci went to meet with Musk about the network’s future, four former charging-network staffers told Reuters.

After Tinucci had cut between 15% and 20% of staffers two weeks earlier, part of much wider layoffs, they believed Musk would affirm plans for a massive charging-network expansion.

The meeting could not have gone worse. Musk, the employees said, was not pleased with Tinucci’s presentation and wanted more layoffs. When she balked, saying deeper cuts would undermine charging-business fundamentals, he responded by firing her and her entire 500-member team.

Not to keep dumping on Musk all the time, but really... in any discussion about whether or not to invest in Tesla, he's by far the biggest risk factor. He's willing to trash an entire, profitable division of his own company just to prove he's the boss and he can do what he wants.

I'll use this as one potential justification for investing in Tesla.

There's probably a good bit of upside if he gets kicked to the curb.

We'll also see what happens with his compensation package.  Per the WSJ, it looks like institutional shareholders are voting against the pay package by a healthy margin.

Keep in mind the sheer scale of this package.  Taking the $56B number at face value (which is dangerous when talking about options), this is ~10% of the entire company.  If this package is turned down, each Tesla shareholder will own roughly ~10% more of the company than they otherwise would.  While the word "unprecedented" gets thrown around a lot these days, I think it really applies here. 

It doesn't change my negative take on the company.  But it is fairly telling that the biggest bull case for the stock is that the CEO gets fired and his fraudulent pay package gets turned down.
For Musk to be "fired" I think he'd first have to reduce his 13% stake in the company and death grip on the Board. That's a possibility, especially if Twitter continues to suck or if Tesla stock falls to the point his loans are called. Musk also has one foot in Open AI, and could decide to exit the boring and frustrating engineering limitations of making cars to get into the business of generative AI.

but he has threatened to take the AI out of tesla with him. I mentioned this before and not sure how it would work/if he could get away with it or not.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2411 on: May 16, 2024, 08:54:18 AM »
I do hope Elon starts a company called Musk Corp, develops a flying skateboard and flies around major cities in the US dressed in green and cackling like a lunatic while contemplating his Master Plan for the Human Race as a sort of real life Lex Luthor/Norman Osborn. It seems like the logical next step in his career progression.

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2412 on: May 16, 2024, 08:55:29 AM »

Per the WSJ, it looks like institutional shareholders are voting against the pay package by a healthy margin.



I googled but couldn't find this. Can you point me to where this might be?

maizefolk

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2413 on: May 16, 2024, 09:11:52 AM »
Musk also has one foot in Open AI, and could decide to exit the boring and frustrating engineering limitations of making cars to get into the business of generative AI.

Musk was involved early on in OpenAI, but since 2018 he doesn't  have any ownership, control, or role in OpenAI.

He did start his own AI company (xAI), but it's reasonably small and doesn't appear to be leading or at the cutting edge.

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2414 on: May 16, 2024, 06:23:13 PM »
from this:
https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/15/tesla_shareholder_vote_on_giving/

Quote
Such a campaign might be needed in order for the vote to pass, which can only happen if a majority of voting shareholders agree. However, Musk, who owns 13 percent of Tesla stock won't be able to vote on the proposal, which means it comes down to the other 87 percent of shares. Of particular note is the fact that around 30 percent of all Tesla shares are owned by individual investors, which makes their vote count even more since Musk's shares are excluded.

Big institutional shareholders were not completely convinced back in 2018, such as investment management group Vanguard, and their support isn't guaranteed this time around either. The approval of individual investors, who tend to skip votes, could potentially shift the balance in Musk's favor

So - musk has 13%, individual investors like me have 30%, so 57% is institutional? And musk's don't count, so it would come down to 34% weighted on individual and 66 on institutional.

I wonder how much of the 30% individual is friends and family - like kimbal or other board members? Maybe his mom too!

The lit put out on this was a bit saccharine, like how dared the vermont court overrule what you the shareholders voted on in 2018! On the tesla website.

Then there are alot of musk fanboys posting on twitter too. Real or otherwise how would I know! But they are all affirming musk as deserving to get paid for his work. He's the richest/second richest person on the earth and a court ruled the pay package too excessive. He has been damaging tesla almost daily with his twitter antics so, I don't think he is 'working' as much for tesla as he should be. Go home and sleep in your bed and keep your toxic yapper closed on twitter.

I only wish there were more shareholder proposal to vote on. there were some good ones that aren't being talked about, and I hope the vote goes in shareholders favor.

NorCal

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2415 on: May 16, 2024, 07:35:54 PM »

Per the WSJ, it looks like institutional shareholders are voting against the pay package by a healthy margin.



I googled but couldn't find this. Can you point me to where this might be?

I found the article, but realized I misread the chart.  The chart in the article references the institutional shareholders that voted against this package back in 2018.

I find it a stretch to think that many will vote for the package that didn’t vote for it before though.

My wife works with corporate governance issues every day, and her opinion is that the entire concept of corporate governance is a mockery if this type of pay package can be approved.

https://www.wsj.com/business/tesla-hits-the-road-to-persuade-shareholders-to-pay-elon-musk-46-billion-6ea31ea5?st=y87tmxucz8tqss6&reflink=article_copyURL_share

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2416 on: May 17, 2024, 09:54:46 PM »

Per the WSJ, it looks like institutional shareholders are voting against the pay package by a healthy margin.



I googled but couldn't find this. Can you point me to where this might be?

I found the article, but realized I misread the chart.  The chart in the article references the institutional shareholders that voted against this package back in 2018.

I find it a stretch to think that many will vote for the package that didn’t vote for it before though.

My wife works with corporate governance issues every day, and her opinion is that the entire concept of corporate governance is a mockery if this type of pay package can be approved.

https://www.wsj.com/business/tesla-hits-the-road-to-persuade-shareholders-to-pay-elon-musk-46-billion-6ea31ea5?st=y87tmxucz8tqss6&reflink=article_copyURL_share

Thanks for the followup. Found a couple threads on reddit where shareholders were voting against the package, texas move, and board members. Of course there are the fanfic thread. There will be a lot voting both ways so it's anyone's guess which way the count will go.

But was nice to find a bunch of people holding the stock are done with elon and the board. But even if that is so, is change really possible with the board nothing more than a string of toadies for musk? how does a change over occur if the ceo and board are in cahoots?

NorCal

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2417 on: May 18, 2024, 12:26:04 PM »

Per the WSJ, it looks like institutional shareholders are voting against the pay package by a healthy margin.



I googled but couldn't find this. Can you point me to where this might be?

I found the article, but realized I misread the chart.  The chart in the article references the institutional shareholders that voted against this package back in 2018.

I find it a stretch to think that many will vote for the package that didn’t vote for it before though.

My wife works with corporate governance issues every day, and her opinion is that the entire concept of corporate governance is a mockery if this type of pay package can be approved.

https://www.wsj.com/business/tesla-hits-the-road-to-persuade-shareholders-to-pay-elon-musk-46-billion-6ea31ea5?st=y87tmxucz8tqss6&reflink=article_copyURL_share

Thanks for the followup. Found a couple threads on reddit where shareholders were voting against the package, texas move, and board members. Of course there are the fanfic thread. There will be a lot voting both ways so it's anyone's guess which way the count will go.

But was nice to find a bunch of people holding the stock are done with elon and the board. But even if that is so, is change really possible with the board nothing more than a string of toadies for musk? how does a change over occur if the ceo and board are in cahoots?

It’s usually the institutional money that makes a difference. A fund voting 10M shares has a bit more say than a random redditor with 7 shares.

Tesla’s a little out of the norm, with significant shares held by individual investors. But I think you’re right that the mood has turned among individual investors.

From that WSJ chart, my rough math is that institutional shareholders voted against the package roughly 2:1 last time. It will be less this time.  While anything can happen, I would put money on Elon getting his payday.

It’s hard to overstate how ridiculous and out of the norm this situation is.  A Delaware court ruled that Tesla’s board was so conflicted that they couldn’t objectively set compensation for the CEO. No public company other than Tesla is crazy enough to put themselves in that situation.

Any other company in this situation would make fundamental changes to board composition and structure. Having a board that can’t objectively evaluate the CEO defeats the purpose of a board.

The one thing a company in this situation shouldn’t do is to cram through a comp plan that a court of law says was designed in a way into deceive shareholders. And even more importantly, a board that is struggling to appear independent shouldn’t be out selling said compensation plan to shareholders.


bacchi

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2418 on: May 18, 2024, 12:37:20 PM »
From that WSJ chart, my rough math is that institutional shareholders voted against the package roughly 2:1 last time. It will be less this time.  While anything can happen, I would put money on Elon getting his payday.

It’s hard to overstate how ridiculous and out of the norm this situation is.  A Delaware court ruled that Tesla’s board was so conflicted that they couldn’t objectively set compensation for the CEO. No public company other than Tesla is crazy enough to put themselves in that situation.

Any other company in this situation would make fundamental changes to board composition and structure. Having a board that can’t objectively evaluate the CEO defeats the purpose of a board.

The one thing a company in this situation shouldn’t do is to cram through a comp plan that a court of law says was designed in a way into deceive shareholders. And even more importantly, a board that is struggling to appear independent shouldn’t be out selling said compensation plan to shareholders.

From what you wrote, why would you expect more institutions to vote in favor? Tesla stock hasn't done that well since he bought Twitter and the near-term sales/revenue prognosis isn't exactly great. Why would institutions be more favorable to an outsized package now compared to 2018?

NorCal

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2419 on: May 18, 2024, 02:08:14 PM »
From that WSJ chart, my rough math is that institutional shareholders voted against the package roughly 2:1 last time. It will be less this time.  While anything can happen, I would put money on Elon getting his payday.

It’s hard to overstate how ridiculous and out of the norm this situation is.  A Delaware court ruled that Tesla’s board was so conflicted that they couldn’t objectively set compensation for the CEO. No public company other than Tesla is crazy enough to put themselves in that situation.

Any other company in this situation would make fundamental changes to board composition and structure. Having a board that can’t objectively evaluate the CEO defeats the purpose of a board.

The one thing a company in this situation shouldn’t do is to cram through a comp plan that a court of law says was designed in a way into deceive shareholders. And even more importantly, a board that is struggling to appear independent shouldn’t be out selling said compensation plan to shareholders.

From what you wrote, why would you expect more institutions to vote in favor? Tesla stock hasn't done that well since he bought Twitter and the near-term sales/revenue prognosis isn't exactly great. Why would institutions be more favorable to an outsized package now compared to 2018?

Typo from mobile. I wouldn’t put money on it. I expect institutional support for the pay package to be pretty small.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2420 on: June 03, 2024, 12:21:35 PM »
Headline:
Elon Musk accused of selling $7.5 billion of Tesla stock before releasing disappointing sales data that plunged the share price to two-year low

Quote
“By disposing of $7,530,113,926 worth of Tesla stock in November and December 2022 while he was in possession of adverse, material non-public information, E. Musk exploited his position at Tesla, and he breached his fiduciary duties to Tesla,” the lawsuit claims, adding other directors were both “knowing and culpable” as well.

Never, never, buy a company with bad corporate governance.

Travis

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2421 on: June 04, 2024, 04:40:00 PM »
Headline:
Elon Musk accused of selling $7.5 billion of Tesla stock before releasing disappointing sales data that plunged the share price to two-year low

Quote
“By disposing of $7,530,113,926 worth of Tesla stock in November and December 2022 while he was in possession of adverse, material non-public information, E. Musk exploited his position at Tesla, and he breached his fiduciary duties to Tesla,” the lawsuit claims, adding other directors were both “knowing and culpable” as well.

Never, never, buy a company with bad corporate governance.

Article today alleging Musk asked Nvidia to move Twitter to the front of the line for chips over Tesla.

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/04/elon-musk-told-nvidia-to-ship-ai-chips-reserved-for-tesla-to-x-xai.html

GuitarStv

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2422 on: June 05, 2024, 07:25:22 AM »
Headline:
Elon Musk accused of selling $7.5 billion of Tesla stock before releasing disappointing sales data that plunged the share price to two-year low

Quote
“By disposing of $7,530,113,926 worth of Tesla stock in November and December 2022 while he was in possession of adverse, material non-public information, E. Musk exploited his position at Tesla, and he breached his fiduciary duties to Tesla,” the lawsuit claims, adding other directors were both “knowing and culpable” as well.

Never, never, buy a company with bad corporate governance.

Article today alleging Musk asked Nvidia to move Twitter to the front of the line for chips over Tesla.

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/04/elon-musk-told-nvidia-to-ship-ai-chips-reserved-for-tesla-to-x-xai.html

At least Tesla shareholders are getting what they deserve from the leadership they voted for.

soulpatchmike

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2423 on: June 05, 2024, 08:57:35 AM »
Headline:
Elon Musk accused of selling $7.5 billion of Tesla stock before releasing disappointing sales data that plunged the share price to two-year low

Quote
“By disposing of $7,530,113,926 worth of Tesla stock in November and December 2022 while he was in possession of adverse, material non-public information, E. Musk exploited his position at Tesla, and he breached his fiduciary duties to Tesla,” the lawsuit claims, adding other directors were both “knowing and culpable” as well.

Never, never, buy a company with bad corporate governance.

Article today alleging Musk asked Nvidia to move Twitter to the front of the line for chips over Tesla.

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/04/elon-musk-told-nvidia-to-ship-ai-chips-reserved-for-tesla-to-x-xai.html

At least Tesla shareholders are getting what they deserve from the leadership they voted for.

I agree, very prudent and excellent leadership to request that a vendor swap dates on Tesla and xAI orders.  xAI needs the chips now, whereas Tesla isn't ready to install them.  xAI gets orders fulfilled earlier than NVIDIA promised them and Tesla will get the chips they ordered later when they will hoepfully be ready to install them.  Funny that they would write an article that makes it sounds like a bad thing...

bacchi

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2424 on: June 05, 2024, 09:31:55 AM »
Headline:
Elon Musk accused of selling $7.5 billion of Tesla stock before releasing disappointing sales data that plunged the share price to two-year low

Quote
“By disposing of $7,530,113,926 worth of Tesla stock in November and December 2022 while he was in possession of adverse, material non-public information, E. Musk exploited his position at Tesla, and he breached his fiduciary duties to Tesla,” the lawsuit claims, adding other directors were both “knowing and culpable” as well.

Never, never, buy a company with bad corporate governance.

Article today alleging Musk asked Nvidia to move Twitter to the front of the line for chips over Tesla.

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/04/elon-musk-told-nvidia-to-ship-ai-chips-reserved-for-tesla-to-x-xai.html

At least Tesla shareholders are getting what they deserve from the leadership they voted for.

I agree, very prudent and excellent leadership to request that a vendor swap dates on Tesla and xAI orders.  xAI needs the chips now, whereas Tesla isn't ready to install them.  xAI gets orders fulfilled earlier than NVIDIA promised them and Tesla will get the chips they ordered later when they will hoepfully be ready to install them.  Funny that they would write an article that makes it sounds like a bad thing...

That's probably because people don't trust half of what Elon says and think that he's making up excuses after the fact.

After all, he has stated that he's going to take his marbles (AI and robotics) and run off to xAI if he doesn't get another 10% of Tesla. You gotta admit, that's odd behavior for a CEO.

soulpatchmike

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2425 on: June 05, 2024, 10:15:12 AM »
Headline:
Elon Musk accused of selling $7.5 billion of Tesla stock before releasing disappointing sales data that plunged the share price to two-year low

Quote
“By disposing of $7,530,113,926 worth of Tesla stock in November and December 2022 while he was in possession of adverse, material non-public information, E. Musk exploited his position at Tesla, and he breached his fiduciary duties to Tesla,” the lawsuit claims, adding other directors were both “knowing and culpable” as well.

Never, never, buy a company with bad corporate governance.

Article today alleging Musk asked Nvidia to move Twitter to the front of the line for chips over Tesla.

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/04/elon-musk-told-nvidia-to-ship-ai-chips-reserved-for-tesla-to-x-xai.html

At least Tesla shareholders are getting what they deserve from the leadership they voted for.

I agree, very prudent and excellent leadership to request that a vendor swap dates on Tesla and xAI orders.  xAI needs the chips now, whereas Tesla isn't ready to install them.  xAI gets orders fulfilled earlier than NVIDIA promised them and Tesla will get the chips they ordered later when they will hoepfully be ready to install them.  Funny that they would write an article that makes it sounds like a bad thing...

That's probably because people don't trust half of what Elon says and think that he's making up excuses after the fact.

After all, he has stated that he's going to take his marbles (AI and robotics) and run off to xAI if he doesn't get another 10% of Tesla. You gotta admit, that's odd behavior for a CEO.
Source?

NorCal

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2426 on: June 05, 2024, 11:13:03 AM »
Headline:
Elon Musk accused of selling $7.5 billion of Tesla stock before releasing disappointing sales data that plunged the share price to two-year low

Quote
“By disposing of $7,530,113,926 worth of Tesla stock in November and December 2022 while he was in possession of adverse, material non-public information, E. Musk exploited his position at Tesla, and he breached his fiduciary duties to Tesla,” the lawsuit claims, adding other directors were both “knowing and culpable” as well.

Never, never, buy a company with bad corporate governance.

Article today alleging Musk asked Nvidia to move Twitter to the front of the line for chips over Tesla.

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/04/elon-musk-told-nvidia-to-ship-ai-chips-reserved-for-tesla-to-x-xai.html

At least Tesla shareholders are getting what they deserve from the leadership they voted for.

I agree, very prudent and excellent leadership to request that a vendor swap dates on Tesla and xAI orders.  xAI needs the chips now, whereas Tesla isn't ready to install them.  xAI gets orders fulfilled earlier than NVIDIA promised them and Tesla will get the chips they ordered later when they will hoepfully be ready to install them.  Funny that they would write an article that makes it sounds like a bad thing...

That’s not how corporate governance works. At all.

If Tesla didn’t need the chips, some middle manager would have called nvidia and deferred the order. Or possibly sold Tesla’s place in line for a decent profit given what I’ve heard about chip demand.

The CEO with a massive and irreconcilable conflict of interest wouldn’t be involved, and Xai would be nowhere near this transaction.

Fiduciary duty is still actually a thing.

GuitarStv

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2427 on: June 05, 2024, 11:20:50 AM »
Is xai what they're calling twitter now?

bacchi

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2428 on: June 05, 2024, 11:52:27 AM »
Headline:
Elon Musk accused of selling $7.5 billion of Tesla stock before releasing disappointing sales data that plunged the share price to two-year low

Quote
“By disposing of $7,530,113,926 worth of Tesla stock in November and December 2022 while he was in possession of adverse, material non-public information, E. Musk exploited his position at Tesla, and he breached his fiduciary duties to Tesla,” the lawsuit claims, adding other directors were both “knowing and culpable” as well.

Never, never, buy a company with bad corporate governance.

Article today alleging Musk asked Nvidia to move Twitter to the front of the line for chips over Tesla.

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/04/elon-musk-told-nvidia-to-ship-ai-chips-reserved-for-tesla-to-x-xai.html

At least Tesla shareholders are getting what they deserve from the leadership they voted for.

I agree, very prudent and excellent leadership to request that a vendor swap dates on Tesla and xAI orders.  xAI needs the chips now, whereas Tesla isn't ready to install them.  xAI gets orders fulfilled earlier than NVIDIA promised them and Tesla will get the chips they ordered later when they will hoepfully be ready to install them.  Funny that they would write an article that makes it sounds like a bad thing...

That's probably because people don't trust half of what Elon says and think that he's making up excuses after the fact.

After all, he has stated that he's going to take his marbles (AI and robotics) and run off to xAI if he doesn't get another 10% of Tesla. You gotta admit, that's odd behavior for a CEO.
Source?

I was wrong. He wants a 25% stake, which I don't think the proposed grant will accomplish.

Quote from: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-15/elon-musk-wants-greater-control-of-tesla-before-building-its-ai
CEO suggests he’ll build products elsewhere without 25% stake

Quote from: https://fortune.com/2024/01/16/elon-musk-25-voting-control-tesla-owning-12-company-ai-startups-dojo/
Musk wants 25% voting control of Tesla despite only owning 12% of company: ‘Unless that is the case, I would prefer to build products outside of Tesla’

Travis

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2429 on: June 05, 2024, 12:49:14 PM »
Headline:
Elon Musk accused of selling $7.5 billion of Tesla stock before releasing disappointing sales data that plunged the share price to two-year low

Quote
“By disposing of $7,530,113,926 worth of Tesla stock in November and December 2022 while he was in possession of adverse, material non-public information, E. Musk exploited his position at Tesla, and he breached his fiduciary duties to Tesla,” the lawsuit claims, adding other directors were both “knowing and culpable” as well.

Never, never, buy a company with bad corporate governance.

Article today alleging Musk asked Nvidia to move Twitter to the front of the line for chips over Tesla.

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/06/04/elon-musk-told-nvidia-to-ship-ai-chips-reserved-for-tesla-to-x-xai.html

At least Tesla shareholders are getting what they deserve from the leadership they voted for.

I agree, very prudent and excellent leadership to request that a vendor swap dates on Tesla and xAI orders.  xAI needs the chips now, whereas Tesla isn't ready to install them.  xAI gets orders fulfilled earlier than NVIDIA promised them and Tesla will get the chips they ordered later when they will hoepfully be ready to install them.  Funny that they would write an article that makes it sounds like a bad thing...

That’s not how corporate governance works. At all.

If Tesla didn’t need the chips, some middle manager would have called nvidia and deferred the order. Or possibly sold Tesla’s place in line for a decent profit given what I’ve heard about chip demand.

The CEO with a massive and irreconcilable conflict of interest wouldn’t be involved, and Xai would be nowhere near this transaction.

Fiduciary duty is still actually a thing.

This is the issue they're bringing up. Tesla not needing the chips right away and Twitter needing them more aren't automatically a matching pair. If he just said "we don't need the chips right now, give them to whoever is next" is one thing. Saying "Put my privately-owned pet project ahead of the publicly-traded company I run" is drastically different - especially if he specifically requested that arrangement.

Telecaster

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2430 on: June 05, 2024, 03:10:50 PM »
I agree, very prudent and excellent leadership to request that a vendor swap dates on Tesla and xAI orders.  xAI needs the chips now, whereas Tesla isn't ready to install them.  xAI gets orders fulfilled earlier than NVIDIA promised them and Tesla will get the chips they ordered later when they will hoepfully be ready to install them.  Funny that they would write an article that makes it sounds like a bad thing...

Why is the Giga Austin expansion delayed?  Musk wanted a tunnel so Cybertrucks could transverse the facility autonomously and there were problems with the tunneling contractor.   Until the tunnel was complete the floor slab couldn't be poured.   Who was the tunneling contractor?  The Boring Company.     

And somebody is responsible for completing Giga Austin on time.   Isn't that ultimately Musk?  Since there seems to be a global arms race to get to AI the fastest this seems like a major screw up.   And of course, xAI paid Telsa for its spot in the production line, right?   

And another question:  Co-located data centers are a thing.   Why can't Tesla's chips go someplace else at first?   They've known for months about the Boring Company's problems at Giga Austin.  It seems a very prudent and excellent CEO would have arranged that.   

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2431 on: June 05, 2024, 08:48:53 PM »
Sounds a lot like Musk's collection of companies are manufacturing spending and revenue on each other.

ColoradoTribe

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2432 on: June 05, 2024, 11:28:49 PM »
Usual suspects on here regurgitating the day’s negative headlines and pointing out the trees in the forest that they either refuse to see or cant’t see. Can’t say I’ve ever bothered to post relentlessly about a stock I don’t own on an internet message board, but some folks seem to be obsessed with this company and its CEO despite having no skin in the game. Free country, but it does beg the question, why is it so important for some to see this company fail/ Why do they feel the need to rail against it constantly? Just remember these same folks have been wrong about Tesla for over a decade now and have been spewing the same doomsday prophesies every step of the way.

Tesla can’t make a compelling EV that people will want.
Tesla can’t mass produce EVs.
Tesla can’t mass produce EVs profitably.
Teslas catch fire and are poorly built.
Tesla is only a car company.
The competition will crush Tesla in 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025
The Cybertruck will never get built.
Nobody will pay good money for the CT.
Sales in Country X were down XX% for the month of XXXXXX, Tesla demand has collapsed and the company is doomed.
Tesla can’t make an appealing EV for less than $80k, $70k, $60k, $55k, $50k, $45k, $40k

Tesla is a technology company with expertise in manufacturing, software, energy storage, AI, robotics, and computing. Not everything they say will happen will happen. Much of what they say will happen will be delayed. However, in the end, they will succeed on multiple fronts. Those focusing on the quarterly results or the setbacks are missing the big picture of what Tesla has been able to accomplish where others have failed and what they are positioned to do going forward on a time scale of years. I heard all the same noise on this thread for years now. I held during a bull market while Tesla traded sideways or worse from 2013-2019. Six long years, but held, not out of some blind faith, but secure knowing Tesla was executing on their vision regardless of wether the stock price reflected their progress or not. I anticipate the period of 2022 - 2025 will be a similar period, where the stock price does not reflect the progress of the company because WS only cares about quarterly earnings and fails to see the level and speed of the coming disruption.

soulpatchmike

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2433 on: June 06, 2024, 09:45:28 AM »
Usual suspects on here regurgitating the day’s negative headlines and pointing out the trees in the forest that they either refuse to see or cant’t see. Can’t say I’ve ever bothered to post relentlessly about a stock I don’t own on an internet message board, but some folks seem to be obsessed with this company and its CEO despite having no skin in the game. Free country, but it does beg the question, why is it so important for some to see this company fail/ Why do they feel the need to rail against it constantly? Just remember these same folks have been wrong about Tesla for over a decade now and have been spewing the same doomsday prophesies every step of the way.

Tesla can’t make a compelling EV that people will want.
Tesla can’t mass produce EVs.
Tesla can’t mass produce EVs profitably.
Teslas catch fire and are poorly built.
Tesla is only a car company.
The competition will crush Tesla in 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025
The Cybertruck will never get built.
Nobody will pay good money for the CT.
Sales in Country X were down XX% for the month of XXXXXX, Tesla demand has collapsed and the company is doomed.
Tesla can’t make an appealing EV for less than $80k, $70k, $60k, $55k, $50k, $45k, $40k

Tesla is a technology company with expertise in manufacturing, software, energy storage, AI, robotics, and computing. Not everything they say will happen will happen. Much of what they say will happen will be delayed. However, in the end, they will succeed on multiple fronts. Those focusing on the quarterly results or the setbacks are missing the big picture of what Tesla has been able to accomplish where others have failed and what they are positioned to do going forward on a time scale of years. I heard all the same noise on this thread for years now. I held during a bull market while Tesla traded sideways or worse from 2013-2019. Six long years, but held, not out of some blind faith, but secure knowing Tesla was executing on their vision regardless of wether the stock price reflected their progress or not. I anticipate the period of 2022 - 2025 will be a similar period, where the stock price does not reflect the progress of the company because WS only cares about quarterly earnings and fails to see the level and speed of the coming disruption.
☝️

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2434 on: June 06, 2024, 12:33:27 PM »
@ColoradoTribe I think it is these factors:
  • Being deceived as investors (e.g. FSD, CT timeline, range, going private, etc)
  • The observation that TSLA avoids marketing expenses only because their celebrity CEO spreads deceptive hype to investors on Xitter and somehow appears in headlines every single day. How long will this trick work?
  • The concept of an entrant into the capital-intensive, low-margin automobile manufacturing business having the valuation of a tech stock.
  • Self-serving / corrupt moves by the CEO, such as the pay package, AI extortion, vindictive layoffs, and packing the board with cronies.
  • The reputation of Tesla products as being extremely expensive to own and having severe quality defects.
  • The CEO's right-wing political motives being incompatible with the success of an environmentally friendly vehicle company.
  • The CEO is literally a habitual user of a DEA schedule 3 drug (ketamine).
To be consistent, I'm not a fan of F, GM, or Stellantis for many of the same reasons, and I run away from other meme stocks for many of the same reasons. There's something about this whole package that seems destined to eventually erupt in a fireball of investor losses, and then we'll talk about how obvious it was in hindsight. Tesla manufactures more red flags than cars.

Yet you make a good point that TSLA has been a high-growth shitshow for years. Somehow the employees keep pulling that rabbit out of the hat, despite the CEO and despite all the red flags. My best explanation for the phenomenon is that perhaps CEOs are generally worse than useless, and with Musk being preoccupied with his other businesses, drugs, and Twitter account, maybe the lower level executives are able to flourish and work hard without some megalomaniac demanding their constant attention? If this was true, then the apparent dysfunction would be Tesla's secret sauce.

However, that same CEO could extract a lot of value out of his shareholders, so it's a inherently volatile proposition. One would have to hold massive trust in Elmo based on their Twitter "relationship" with him. Institutional Shareholder Services gives TSLA their worst possible score for governance quality.

Paying 45x this company's earnings is hard when you could buy Salesforce's earnings for 44x, Microsoft's for 36x, Apple for 30x, Meta' for 29x, GOOG for 27x, or BYD for 20x. Every one of those companies I mentioned has much lower governance risk than TSLA, and arguably similar earnings growth prospects. All but CRM have a higher ROE.

Telecaster

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2435 on: June 06, 2024, 03:45:52 PM »
Tesla can’t make a compelling EV that people will want.
Tesla can’t mass produce EVs.
Tesla can’t mass produce EVs profitably.
Teslas catch fire and are poorly built.
Tesla is only a car company.
The competition will crush Tesla in 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025
The Cybertruck will never get built.
Nobody will pay good money for the CT.
Sales in Country X were down XX% for the month of XXXXXX, Tesla demand has collapsed and the company is doomed.
Tesla can’t make an appealing EV for less than $80k, $70k, $60k, $55k, $50k, $45k, $40k


These are all either red herring or straw man arguments.  Elon Musk is public figure and Tesla is a public company, it is absurd for anyone to suggest that no one should comment unless they are stockholders.   However, most of us ARE shareholders.  TSLA is about 1% of VTSAX and for a lot of people here that ownership translates to a non-trivial dollar figure. 

Regarding my investment stake in Tesla, it appears that Elon is self-dealing.   When the story first broke Elon immediately called the reporter a liar.   He later clarified the story is indeed true, but said Tesla simply didn't have a place for the chips.     

You can always tell when someone has something to hide if they don't state the obvious when it would be in their best interests to do so.   If the truth were on Elon's side, he would have simply said the story is correct.   Or even better, he wouldn't have said anything and let Tesla's coms team handle it.  Oh wait, they don't have a coms team.   Instead he lied about it and was forced to backtrack, which raises reasonable questions of why did he lie and what else is he lying about?   


davef

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2436 on: June 06, 2024, 06:31:08 PM »
Headline:
Elon Musk accused of selling $7.5 billion of Tesla stock before releasing disappointing sales data that plunged the share price to two-year low

Quote
“By disposing of $7,530,113,926 worth of Tesla stock in November and December 2022 while he was in possession of adverse, material non-public information, E. Musk exploited his position at Tesla, and he breached his fiduciary duties to Tesla,” the lawsuit claims, adding other directors were both “knowing and culpable” as well.

Never, never, buy a company with bad corporate governance.

Yeah, I don't think so. He needed that money to complete the Twitter purchase, He was very clear on that. Musk sleeps on the floor under his desk, doesn't own a house, and as of a year or so had so little liquid cash he could barely buy a Tesla. He may be worth 200+ billion, but it's all in company equity, and Tesla is the only one that is remotely accessible. Besides, Tesla did great in 2022 and 2023. And while every insider has inside information, I really don't think his decision to sell that stock had anything to do with inside information on future stock prices.

davef

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2437 on: June 06, 2024, 06:47:13 PM »
@ColoradoTribe I think it is these factors:
  • Being deceived as investors (e.g. FSD, CT timeline, range, going private, etc)
  • The observation that TSLA avoids marketing expenses only because their celebrity CEO spreads deceptive hype to investors on Xitter and somehow appears in headlines every single day. How long will this trick work?
  • Self-serving / corrupt moves by the CEO, such as the pay package, AI extortion, vindictive layoffs, and packing the board with cronies.
  • The reputation of Tesla products as being extremely expensive to own and having severe quality defects.
  • The CEO's right-wing political motives being incompatible with the success of an environmentally friendly vehicle company.
  • The CEO is literally a habitual user of a DEA schedule 3 drug (ketamine).

Where to start with this pile of nonsense.
Is he a salesman? and an optimist sure? If you ask Gronk AI about Musk, it will tell you he often misses his self-imposed deadlines. And yet, his deadlines are highly ambitious, and when he misses, he usually doesn't miss by much. Thats not deception, that's motivation.

Read the full story on that pay package, He literally said he would work 5 years, 100 hours a week, and if he didn't achieve 10X revenue and a high profit % over that five years he wouldn't get paid. But he did do those things, he turned a car company no one thought would be around in 5 years to the #1 selling car in the world in that 5 years. He deserves what he negotiated.

Despite the negative press, Tesla has fewer quality issues than any other brand of car.

Musk is far from right wing, he is with the 70-80% of us in the middle that actually care about the environment, but take only practical steps to improve it. The 10% on the hardcore left only virtue signal about the environment and adopt counterproductive environmental policy. The 10% on the far right are clueless.

Telecaster

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2438 on: June 06, 2024, 08:18:10 PM »
Yeah, I don't think so. He needed that money to complete the Twitter purchase, He was very clear on that. Musk sleeps on the floor under his desk, doesn't own a house, and as of a year or so had so little liquid cash he could barely buy a Tesla. He may be worth 200+ billion, but it's all in company equity, and Tesla is the only one that is remotely accessible. Besides, Tesla did great in 2022 and 2023. And while every insider has inside information, I really don't think his decision to sell that stock had anything to do with inside information on future stock prices.

He sold those shares after the Twitter purchase was complete.  There is no question on that.    Having 200+ billion in stock but no cash is a choice.  He could sell enough shares to buy a Tesla tomorrow, no problem.  Although Musk says he doesn't own a house, he actually does. 

maizefolk

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2439 on: June 13, 2024, 08:27:46 PM »
It looks like the shareholders of Tesla have voted to give Musk back the same options shareholders originally voted to give him back in 2018.

The shares closed up 3% after the news, despite the fact that this represents a roughly 10% dilution of the share of ownership of the company each share represents, so it also looks like the markets overall think this decision increases the value of Tesla as a company something like 13%?

waltworks

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2440 on: June 13, 2024, 09:02:59 PM »
Tesla is for all practical purposes a meme stock at this point, so I'm not sure you can attribute the market reaction to any kind of rational analysis of the value of the company.

-W

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2441 on: June 15, 2024, 12:50:40 PM »
I don't feel FOMO about missing out on meme stonks any more than I feel FOMO about not guessing lottery numbers, predicting the results of clinical trials for pharmaceutical microstocks, or failing to get to Las Vegas last night and put my entire net worth on red at the 5th roulette table on the right at 7:16:33 p.m. local time when that color hit. I know that in the big picture, gambling in any format has a lower expected value than long-term investing in stocks. For every Tesla, there is a Canoo. For every Nvidia, an Intel. For every Amazon, a Pets.com. For every GME, a BBBY.

If you play the bold gambling game long enough, the near-zero long-term expected value will catch up with you. Either that or gambler's ruin will knock you out of the game. So why gamble when one could apply the same money to things with above-zero long-term expected values.

For Tesla in particular, we can observe looting behavior by the CEO and his captive board. There is literally nothing to prevent the board from diverting 100% of TSLA's profits into Elmo's pockets. Why rush into that kind of risk?

Telecaster

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2442 on: June 15, 2024, 01:47:47 PM »
For Tesla in particular, we can observe looting behavior by the CEO and his captive board. There is literally nothing to prevent the board from diverting 100% of TSLA's profits into Elmo's pockets. Why rush into that kind of risk?

And if this is upheld, in fact Elon's comp package will be larger than 100% of all the TSLA profits in the history of the company combined.   And it all came out of the pockets of existing shareholders.  Not normally the way stocks are supposed to work.   

reeshau

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #2443 on: June 15, 2024, 06:14:42 PM »
For Tesla in particular, we can observe looting behavior by the CEO and his captive board. There is literally nothing to prevent the board from diverting 100% of TSLA's profits into Elmo's pockets. Why rush into that kind of risk?

And if this is upheld, in fact Elon's comp package will be larger than 100% of all the TSLA profits in the history of the company combined.   And it all came out of the pockets of existing shareholders.  Not normally the way stocks are supposed to work.

What most worries me is the precedent set for the next Elon, to further concentrate the benefits of their idea vs. those who risked their wealth to be with them.