Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 772163 times)

pecunia

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4400 on: April 27, 2024, 02:41:09 PM »
Building 5 in a row might be a stretch, witness WPPSS, the largest municipal bond default at the time (since exceeded), while attempting to build 5 reactors on two sites.
Only WPPSS Unit 2 , now renamed Columbia Generating Station for some reason, WooooPPSS, is currently running.

As an aside, you can take a tour of Satsop, a mostly complete nuclear plant. They let us scurry around the entire site and climb ladders and go into the containment block. It's a fun day trip.

I'd kinda like to tour Sastop.  A B&W two-loop PWR -- I've never been in one.

Running around freely would be a change from the operating plants I've been in :-)
    BWR- Boiling Water Reactors,  US, Taiwan, Germany
    PWR - US, France- although I've never been in containment in France.

Things that slow you down (for good reason) in a operational nuclear power plant.
   Health Physics Technicians- RWP Radiation Work Permits, logging in and logging out.
   Pre-job briefs, which sometimes are not brief.
   Heavily Armed and Armored Security Guards -- in my experience, really nice, polite people. YMMV :-)   
       I asked one of the guards what the ammo loadout was, then relayed this number to a Marine (Gulf War I) who said:
        "no way, by the time you pop that many caps, somebody (good guy or bad guy) is going to be down and you can use that stuff"
Physical barriers, doors (one person at time), slowdown pathways to give the nice people noted above time to shoot at you.

I worked at several prior to the expanded security. Although I've not done the research, I do believe the security prior to the enforced expansion after 9/11 /2001 was adequate.  Bureaucracies are like fungus.

General Electric - Boiling Water Reactor
Westinghouse & most others - Pressurized Water Reactors

Canada - CANDU

More will be built in time.

maizefolk

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4401 on: April 27, 2024, 05:05:56 PM »
I am somewhat curious to see how South Korea's plans to export their APR-1400 reactors work out. At least when they are build domestically, South Korea doesn't appear to be seeing the sorts of cost overruns that American or European reactors are experiencing.

But I don't know how much of that is better design/corporate culture (should translate to reactors built in other countries) and how much may be specific differences in the regulatory climate or workforce that may not translate to reactors built to the same design in other countries.

markbike528CBX

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4402 on: April 27, 2024, 06:41:00 PM »
I am somewhat curious to see how South Korea's plans to export their APR-1400 reactors work out. At least when they are build domestically, South Korea doesn't appear to be seeing the sorts of cost overruns that American or European reactors are experiencing.

But I don't know how much of that is better design/corporate culture (should translate to reactors built in other countries) and how much may be specific differences in the regulatory climate or workforce that may not translate to reactors built to the same design in other countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APR-1400
Three units up and running at Barakah so that is a datum.  Unit 1 start construction 2012, commercial operation April 2021.

I tested some of the safety and control systems of Barakah Unit 1 (United Arab Emirates) in 2014.
I was working for Westinghouse.   There were a LOT of cabinets and screens to test.   About 4 or more times as many as the AP1000 sets.
My color vision deficit did not prevent me from seeing the colors on screen.  I can identify strong primary colors, not so much pastels or mixes.
I also found out I can read and write English :-). 
This was preliminary testing to see if there were any issues prior to certification tests.  I was physically touching a touch screen.
We had to write out, on paper, the full name of the color of the onscreen display button.  That was a pain.

Curiously:
Quote
In 2022, Westinghouse Electric Company, which had acquired Combustion Engineering in 2000, filed a lawsuit in a U.S. federal court against KHNP and Kepco alleging that the APR-1400 was copied from the System 80 reactor. This had the indirect effect that the U.S. government rejected a request for necessary APR-1400 permission to export to a third country while the case is resolved.
Why the delay in filing from 2014 or before to 2021?  Maybe not to piss on a contract with KEPCO?  Dunno, way above my pay grade.
As I remember, it was pretty clear that APR-1400 was a B&W System 80 update.
Nevermind.  It was to slow/stop the Poland APR-1400 sale by KEPCO versus a Westinghouse AP1000.
https://www.neimagazine.com/news/newsus-stalls-south-koreas-npp-export-plans-10747925

Posthumane

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4403 on: May 08, 2024, 11:37:48 AM »
With Russia attacking Ukraine's power plants en masse, it got me thinking about the feasibility of decentralizing power production in the middle of a war. Unsurprisingly there are many other people thinking about this as well. USAID has an Energy Security Project aimed at just that:
https://energysecurityua.org/news/usaid-will-help-ukraine-to-implement-distributed-generation-projects/
However, the timelines on these kinds of projects are generally long, the costs are high, and so high level investment from governments and businesses is required to make them work. I was wondering if there are smaller, more direct ways for someone to contribute to this. Perhaps constructing and sending small, portable Solar+battery systems that could be hung from a balcony rail or place in a yard to help individual households? Residential power is obviously just one small part of the problem, with industrial probably being more important, but it's something.

maizefolk

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4404 on: May 08, 2024, 11:47:52 AM »
There are commercially available solar + battery solutions which would be enough to keep laptops + cell phones working during a blackout. My folks had to use one during a long term power outage from storms a few years ago.

Getting enough power to run AC, refrigerators, microwaves, and all the other big power draws in a house requires a much more extensive system (think a bunch of rooftop solar panels and a Tesla powerwall or equivalent), likely in the tens of thousands of dollars per household.

Posthumane

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4405 on: May 08, 2024, 12:51:39 PM »
I was thinking something in the range of 1-3kWh storage and 1-3 kW PV supplementation depending on location. The average per capita residential electricity consumption pre-war was about 2.4 kWh/day. That's still a lot of money though.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2024, 01:02:47 PM by Posthumane »

Tyson

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4406 on: May 08, 2024, 02:00:44 PM »
You could put up community solar and batteries.  It’s not quite as distributed as individual setups but should be cheaper.

pecunia

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4407 on: May 08, 2024, 02:04:55 PM »
There are commercially available solar + battery solutions which would be enough to keep laptops + cell phones working during a blackout. My folks had to use one during a long term power outage from storms a few years ago.

Getting enough power to run AC, refrigerators, microwaves, and all the other big power draws in a house requires a much more extensive system (think a bunch of rooftop solar panels and a Tesla powerwall or equivalent), likely in the tens of thousands of dollars per household.

What better target than glistening solar cells smiling in the sunlight?

Posthumane

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4408 on: May 08, 2024, 07:10:53 PM »
What better target than glistening solar cells smiling in the sunlight?
A multi GW hydro-electric or thermal plant is a much more attractive target for an $3m Iskander than a few kW or solar panels.

pecunia

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4409 on: May 08, 2024, 07:26:54 PM »
What better target than glistening solar cells smiling in the sunlight?
A multi GW hydro-electric or thermal plant is a much more attractive target for an $3m Iskander than a few kW or solar panels.

Hydro plants are made with tons and tons of reinforced concrete.  A small drone can take out a flimsy solar array.  I do agree that bombing the hydro plant may cause more damage.  However, how well defended will a small solar array be?  In addition there may be many of them giving a choice of targets.  The solar arrays can be taken out very cheaply with small drones.

I guess I'd rather see resources used to blow up a solar array than a kindergarten.


LennStar

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4410 on: May 09, 2024, 01:32:11 AM »
Even Russia produces only about 200+ drones (Shahed) per month that could be used for such attacks and even Russia is likely to prefer dropping them on military targets.

We are talking about systems where there is at least one per 100 persons even if it is just basic needs. (those are simpler and if they are bigger you probably ned more than one drone anyway) Let's do the math!

Charkiw, currently the most civil bombarded city, has 1,5 million inhabitants. Let's assume Russia keeps current production of Shaheds and drops them all on infrastructure and only a few get shot down - because that makes the easy to use 200 drones per month.

With 1,5 million people it would mean 7'500 month of all of Russia's medium drone production just to destroy the panels in this one city.

Of course that is a very ballpark number but I think it demonstrates enough that if there was a highly decentalized energy infrastructure, drones would be no realistic threat to it outside a very localized position. 

LennStar

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4411 on: May 09, 2024, 01:50:55 AM »
On a different topic this is (if real, which I think it is) the first confirmation I have seen of airborne machine gun drones in battle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Seb51bbrMHo

Starting at 5 minutes.

Posthumane

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4412 on: May 09, 2024, 11:27:18 AM »
LennStar is right, the logistics and economics of trying to take out large swaths of distributed energy production just doesn't add up. Small, cheap FPV drones are used tactically and don't generally stray more than a few km from the FEBA. They don't have the range to do so, and don't have the payload to cause a large amount of damage to a wide area. The relatively "cheap" long range one way attack drones such as the Shahed cost a few tens of thousands of dollars (estimates range from 20-200k depending on the source), and carry a 110lb warhead. That's enough to do some damage, but not enough to make it worthwhile.

A large hydro or thermal plant can take a long time to build or repair. Replacing damaged panels is comparatively quick. There was a largeish (3.9 MW) solar plant hit by a missle a couple years ago, and the next day they were able to bypass the damaged panels and have half of the generating capacity back up.

Distributed small scale gas powered generators are also a viable option. The need for gas delivery slightly complicates this in some areas, but they have the advantage of being able to supply both heat and power. Many of the damaged thermal plants were CHP (combined heat and power) facilities.

From the centre of eastern studies in Warsaw:
"According to the most pessimistic assessments, Ukraine has lost up to 85% of the generation capacity of its thermal power plants and up to 50% of the generation capacity of its hydroelectric power plants as a result of the Russian strikes in March and April."
« Last Edit: May 09, 2024, 11:37:33 AM by Posthumane »

reeshau

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4413 on: May 09, 2024, 01:42:32 PM »
Switch the shaheds from a warhead to a large reservoir of paint, and they could probably do more damage to a solar array. Or at least, to its generating capacity.


Not that I'm trying to solve the hypothetical problem for them.

Radagast

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4414 on: May 09, 2024, 03:09:25 PM »
I was thinking more distributed solar, like 1 panel per person. I see 1kW sets with inverter, battery, panel, & controller at AliExpress for $120.
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805973577927.html?src=google&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa

A bulk purchase and shipping might take that down to $100 each. Buying one for every person in Ukraine would cost $4,000,000, which is the interest on seized Russian assets in the EU and US. And LOL at trying to get enough drones to take all that out.

I've always thought the resilience of distributed solar is underrated, and that every building should be encouraged to have enough solar mounted to its exterior to generate its own electricity, albeit storage is still to finicky and expensive.

Posthumane

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4415 on: May 09, 2024, 03:40:15 PM »
I'd take those AliExpress listings with a large dose of salt. It says 1000W solar system in the title, yet the panel specs out to only 100W (16V, 6.25A mpp).

Radagast

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4416 on: May 09, 2024, 04:03:41 PM »
I'm not too surprised to learn that. Still, it looks like Ukraine's 2021 per capita electrical use was 350 watts per day. For $4,000,000 it might be possible to address essentially all domestic and commercial use in a very resilient fashion with these, leaving just industry and transport to worry about on the grid.

Posthumane

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4417 on: May 09, 2024, 05:01:48 PM »
Can you clarify what you mean by 350 watts per day? If you mean an average continuous consumption of 350 watts, that amounts to 8.4kWh per day, which in the winter would require about 8kW per capita of installed solar capacity with no reserve and assuming you had enough storage to cover low periods (northern Ukraine gets on average just over 1 full sun hour per day in Dec). This matches what I read: various sources have given electricity consumption figures that amount to 6-10 kWh/day, with 1/4 to 1/3 or that going to residential. At close to 40m people (pre war) it would take over $200B in panels alone before you include any storage.

That being said, most of Ukraine's nuclear generating capacity is still intact. Additional distributed energy solutions would currently only have to cover the shortfall.

Radagast

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4418 on: May 09, 2024, 06:14:33 PM »
Yup you're right. I was wondering why everybody wasn't doing it :)

maizefolk

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4419 on: May 09, 2024, 07:12:46 PM »
A bulk purchase and shipping might take that down to $100 each. Buying one for every person in Ukraine would cost $4,000,000, which is the interest on seized Russian assets in the EU and US. And LOL at trying to get enough drones to take all that out.

I think you may have dropped a factor of a thousand in doing the math on total cost here.

$4,000,000 to give every person in Ukraine a $100 device = 40,000 people in Ukraine. 

The cost of one unit for every person in Ukraine would be $4,000,000,000. Still not an impossible sum but a 1000x larger.

LennStar

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4420 on: May 12, 2024, 10:54:34 AM »
Just in case you missed it, Russia has started it's attack on Charkiw.

Currently nobody knows anything and the situation is rapidly changing.

What is definite is that A) Russia gained territory (which does not say much so close at the border) B) it's not an all-out full scale attack.

Most likely seems to be that this is what everyone expected - the opening of another front to thin Ukrainian defenses farther in the South, not an attack with the goal of rapidly capturing the city.


Travis

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4421 on: May 12, 2024, 01:37:33 PM »
Sergei Shoigu out as Minister of Defense. Moved to head the Security Council. Current head of Security Council Patrushev's fate TBD.

https://x.com/maxseddon/status/1789726451438162009

https://x.com/JimmySecUK/status/1789733103038034276

https://www.twitter.com/ralee85/status/1789728806606930237

Telecaster

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4422 on: May 12, 2024, 03:58:55 PM »
A bit surprised Shoigu has last this long.   Obviously, there is a lot of palace intrigue that we'll probably never know about, but given the clumsiness of the initial invasion it seems like he would have been fire long ago. 

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4423 on: May 13, 2024, 09:14:06 AM »
When one door closes, another window opens.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4424 on: May 13, 2024, 09:20:18 AM »
A bit surprised Shoigu has last this long.   Obviously, there is a lot of palace intrigue that we'll probably never know about, but given the clumsiness of the initial invasion it seems like he would have been fire long ago.
It is speculated that Shoigu, as an ethnic minority, poses no political threat to Putin, so it's been "safe" to keep him in that position, regardless of his level of competence.  Russia is a very racist country.

pecunia

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4425 on: May 13, 2024, 02:15:11 PM »
A bit surprised Shoigu has last this long.   Obviously, there is a lot of palace intrigue that we'll probably never know about, but given the clumsiness of the initial invasion it seems like he would have been fire long ago.
It is speculated that Shoigu, as an ethnic minority, poses no political threat to Putin, so it's been "safe" to keep him in that position, regardless of his level of competence.  Russia is a very racist country.

That country sure has a lot of "bad" going for it.  I'm trying to think of good things.  Maybe the fishing is good.

GuitarStv

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4426 on: May 13, 2024, 04:03:15 PM »
A bit surprised Shoigu has last this long.   Obviously, there is a lot of palace intrigue that we'll probably never know about, but given the clumsiness of the initial invasion it seems like he would have been fire long ago.
It is speculated that Shoigu, as an ethnic minority, poses no political threat to Putin, so it's been "safe" to keep him in that position, regardless of his level of competence.  Russia is a very racist country.

That country sure has a lot of "bad" going for it.  I'm trying to think of good things.  Maybe the fishing is good.

Nah, it's evil nesting dolls the whole way down . . .   :P


My company did a lot of work with Russian contractors prior to the war (and for a brief rather awkward period during the start of the war), including flying them here to Canada for meet/info sessions.  All of the Russians I had the pleasure of working closely with were nice, hardworking people.  I've often wondered how they are doing as software developers of fighting age under Putin, and hope some of them got out.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4427 on: May 13, 2024, 06:05:22 PM »
When I lived there for two years, that was my experience as well. People there are just like people anywhere--just trying to make their way in the world, supporting their family, and doing their best to be a good person. Wonderful, warm people. They just have the misfortune to live under the rule of mobsters.

reeshau

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4428 on: May 15, 2024, 08:04:54 AM »
Now this is a Secretary of State!

Antony Blinken includes a stop at basement bar Barman Diktat during his visit to Kyiv.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C69YuGDN0di/?utm_source=ig_embed&ig_rid=0153f33b-5759-4f1b-ac6e-f9d1de72f55e

ChpBstrd

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4429 on: May 15, 2024, 10:32:20 AM »
Slovakia's pro-Russian PM Robert Fico was shot multiple times yesterday, and is reportedly in "life-threatening condition". It will be interesting to learn the details of this assassination attempt.

An opposition lawmaker was quoted as saying ''This escalation that is taking place in society can really lead to what we are experiencing now. It is right that we have different political views, but there is interference in society and this has resulted in this act of violence,'' I suspect this is coded language for Russian influence and bribery.

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4430 on: May 15, 2024, 07:24:25 PM »
When I lived there for two years, that was my experience as well. People there are just like people anywhere--just trying to make their way in the world, supporting their family, and doing their best to be a good person. Wonderful, warm people. They just have the misfortune to live under the rule of mobsters.

A friend of mine said that about Ukraine.   He adopted two children from there, and each time the process took months, which had to be spent in Ukraine.   He said the government was corrupt to the core and the people were amazing.   

Radagast

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4431 on: May 15, 2024, 10:54:03 PM »
A bulk purchase and shipping might take that down to $100 each. Buying one for every person in Ukraine would cost $4,000,000, which is the interest on seized Russian assets in the EU and US. And LOL at trying to get enough drones to take all that out.

I think you may have dropped a factor of a thousand in doing the math on total cost here.

$4,000,000 to give every person in Ukraine a $100 device = 40,000 people in Ukraine. 

The cost of one unit for every person in Ukraine would be $4,000,000,000. Still not an impossible sum but a 1000x larger.
I was having a bad math day, but ironically that was one of the things I got right as I had just read that $4B (I'll type it) of interest had accrued on frozen Russian assets.

Radagast

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4432 on: May 15, 2024, 11:06:08 PM »
It's interesting reading main stream media, which mostly quotes Russian sources, and then looking at Twitter accounts following the events. Main stream media claims Russia shot down 10 ATACMS missiles. People following Russian social networks say Russia lost 2 launchers and a radar for an S-400, and half a dozen or so jets damaged.

Mainstream media says Ukraine is about to fall apart around Kharkiv, but it seems it was a limited offensive with limited aims.

"As long as it takes" means "as costly as possible" to all sides. Frankly I'm tired of the US policy toward every conflict being as costly as possible. In some cases it should have been "meh don't bother", in Ukraine it should have been "LOL ROFLstomp." Why force a war of attrition on Ukraine if you aren't planning on ramping up arms supplies to make it as easy as possible? NATO nations have ~2x the oil production, ~7x the population, and ~12x the GDP of Russia as well as a dominant position in industry. They could easily give Ukraine what it needs even in a war of attrition... if they wanted to.

pecunia

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4433 on: May 16, 2024, 07:40:41 AM »
It's interesting reading main stream media, which mostly quotes Russian sources, and then looking at Twitter accounts following the events. Main stream media claims Russia shot down 10 ATACMS missiles. People following Russian social networks say Russia lost 2 launchers and a radar for an S-400, and half a dozen or so jets damaged.

Mainstream media says Ukraine is about to fall apart around Kharkiv, but it seems it was a limited offensive with limited aims.

"As long as it takes" means "as costly as possible" to all sides. Frankly I'm tired of the US policy toward every conflict being as costly as possible. In some cases it should have been "meh don't bother", in Ukraine it should have been "LOL ROFLstomp." Why force a war of attrition on Ukraine if you aren't planning on ramping up arms supplies to make it as easy as possible? NATO nations have ~2x the oil production, ~7x the population, and ~12x the GDP of Russia as well as a dominant position in industry. They could easily give Ukraine what it needs even in a war of attrition... if they wanted to.

Russians are paying dearly for those villages they've overrun.

16.05.2024

    Tanks — 7529 (+19)
    Armored fighting vehicle — 14538 (+30)
    Artillery systems — 12565 (+27)
    MLRS — 1070
    Anti-aircraft warfare — 798
    Planes — 351
    Helicopters — 325
    UAV — 10028 (+13)
    Cruise missiles — 2200 (+1)
    Ships (boats) — 26
    Submarines — 1
    Cars and cisterns — 17048 (+93)
    Special equipment — 2062 (+1)
    Military personnel — aprx. 488460 people (+1520)

Looks like it won't be long and this casualty count will be a half million.

Those F-16s are soon to arrive.  Will they make the difference to match the hype?  They hyped the GLSDB quite a lot.  It seems that largely turned out to be a flop.  However, they may be able to revive the GLSDB.

The Ukrainians seem to take out a lot of these Russian S-300 and S-400 radar missile systems.  I presume that is in preparation for the F-16s.

The Russians know they are coming.  What have they planned for the F-16s?

LennStar

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4434 on: May 16, 2024, 08:28:42 AM »
No, hte F-16 will not make much of a difference, not on more than tactical level. The Russians still have hundreds of fighters with the same capabilities.

It will make life for Russians a little bit harder and shorter though. Like with the GLSDB. Those things add up.

rocketpj

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4435 on: May 16, 2024, 08:50:22 AM »
Things that can't go on forever won't, and I think that includes the Russian war machine.  At some point they will run out of conscripts and equipment - at least so that they can no longer 'attack' as they have been.

They are obviously still making lots of money by circumventing the sanctions.  I suppose another option would be to flood the world with cheap oil - making Russian oil less valuable.  But that would mean upsetting oil companies, and there isn't a politician alive (for long) who does that successfully.

Posthumane

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4436 on: May 16, 2024, 11:13:52 AM »
While you're right that things can't go on forever and that they will eventually run out, unfortunately that eventuality is still a long way off.

pecunia

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4437 on: May 16, 2024, 11:30:49 AM »
While you're right that things can't go on forever and that they will eventually run out, unfortunately that eventuality is still a long way off.

How much are they really spending a day?

How much new oil revenue is still coming in?

What was their initial "pot" of money and how much have they got left?

It appears they won't run out of bodies to send to the front line.  Population of 140 million means they can gather and lose
a million to be sent and haven't even lost 500,000 yet.

The Ukrainian idea of taking out their refineries seems to be a good way to minimize what they can do.

The idea that they can mass huge numbers of troops just across the border in Russia and the Ukrainians can't strike them with Western weapons seems like a stupid policy.

If troops from other nations were sent in to perform noncombat roles, would this make a difference.?  This may free up some Ukrainian troops.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4438 on: May 16, 2024, 12:35:27 PM »
In terms of running out of bodies and resources, Ukraine will run out long before Russia.
Russia has a much bigger population, higher GDP per capita, far more financial reserves, and their industrial base and infrastructure are relatively untouched, notwithstanding isolated drone strikes on refineries. As if this war wasn't lopsided enough, Russia also has the manufacturing capacity of Iran, North Korea, and China at their disposal. Economic superpowers India and China are buying their hydrocarbons, so sanctions are simply Western hand-washing. Russia is recruiting mercenaries from China, Nepal, India, Syria, Cuba, Venezuela, and its colonized parts of Africa.

Ukraine is the underdog here, and will eventually run out of soldiers and infrastructure. The Western plan to trickle intermittent, old supplies to Ukraine in order to weaken Russia is about to reach an inflection point, where a decision will have to be made to actively save Ukraine or not. It is doubtful the U.S. will do much more, with most of the Republican party on Russia's side. The Poles, Germans, and the Czechs may take a more active role in the absence of U.S. leadership.

So far the Ukrainians have been smart to mostly play defense, inflicting asymmetrical casualties on the Russians amid meat assaults on the open Eastern minefields. This is buying time, preventing greater losses, and bringing the two armies slightly closer to parity in terms of vehicles and soldiers, but it is also consuming scarce ammo and soldiers at a probably faster pace than Ukraine can replenish them. Russia's massive advantage in artillery shell production threatens to turn the tables on Ukraine's defensive strategy.

Just Joe

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4439 on: May 16, 2024, 12:44:08 PM »
The idea that they can mass huge numbers of troops just across the border in Russia and the Ukrainians can't strike them with Western weapons seems like a stupid policy.

Throwbacks to the Vietnam war. Lines on the map that the enemy doesn't respect.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4440 on: May 16, 2024, 02:40:58 PM »
They are obviously still making lots of money by circumventing the sanctions.  I suppose another option would be to flood the world with cheap oil - making Russian oil less valuable.  But that would mean upsetting oil companies, and there isn't a politician alive (for long) who does that successfully.
...I'm having trouble squaring this conclusion with the fact that generally, it's the Democrats who want to choke off oil production, and Republicans who are on the "drill baby, drill" train.

In terms of running out of bodies and resources, Ukraine will run out long before Russia.
Russia has a much bigger population, higher GDP per capita, far more financial reserves, and their industrial base and infrastructure are relatively untouched, notwithstanding isolated drone strikes on refineries. As if this war wasn't lopsided enough, Russia also has the manufacturing capacity of Iran, North Korea, and China at their disposal. Economic superpowers India and China are buying their hydrocarbons, so sanctions are simply Western hand-washing. Russia is recruiting mercenaries from China, Nepal, India, Syria, Cuba, Venezuela, and its colonized parts of Africa.

Ukraine is the underdog here, and will eventually run out of soldiers and infrastructure. The Western plan to trickle intermittent, old supplies to Ukraine in order to weaken Russia is about to reach an inflection point, where a decision will have to be made to actively save Ukraine or not. It is doubtful the U.S. will do much more, with most of the Republican party on Russia's side. The Poles, Germans, and the Czechs may take a more active role in the absence of U.S. leadership.

So far the Ukrainians have been smart to mostly play defense, inflicting asymmetrical casualties on the Russians amid meat assaults on the open Eastern minefields. This is buying time, preventing greater losses, and bringing the two armies slightly closer to parity in terms of vehicles and soldiers, but it is also consuming scarce ammo and soldiers at a probably faster pace than Ukraine can replenish them. Russia's massive advantage in artillery shell production threatens to turn the tables on Ukraine's defensive strategy.
I'm a bit more optimistic.  Russia may have a huge manpower and artillery production advantage, but that's about it.  They can't produce aircraft at any appreciable rate, they're losing armor far faster than they can manufacture it, and they've been stripping all of their storage yards of armored vehicles for two years.  At their current loss rates, analysts are estimating Russia will run out of armor in 18-24 months.  As for foreign recruits, I've seen the anecdotes, but haven't seen any statistics about how many they number.  Meanwhile, the West is sitting on thousands and thousands of old Bradleys, hundreds of F-16s, thousands of Abrams, etc.  You're absolutely right that artillery shell production needs to be ramped up in the West more than it is.  Rheinmetall is going to build multiple plants in Ukraine in the near future.

There's also the internal economics and politics of Russia.  Sure, Putin has a stranglehold on power, but he's trashing the country's economy in the meantime.  Last I heard, inflation is at 16%, and sending three quarters of a million working-age men to invade Ukraine doesn't come without a cost.  That gets even worse when you have to pull another who-knows-how-many out of civilian industries to support the war, and even worse when your population pyramid looks like Russia's, and compounds further when you consider the enormous brain drain that happened when this misguided escapade started and everyone fled who has the money and/or brains to do so.  Ukraine is facing the same issue for sure, but there's a lot of western money flowing in to help support their economy.

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4441 on: May 16, 2024, 04:16:00 PM »
I really have to wonder if Russia wins this war with their greater resources, what do they win?

The stated reasons for the war was the Nazis in Ukraine and the fear of NATO spreading.  Well - There were very few Nazis.  It seems hardly worth a half million casualties.  NATO has expanded on the Finnish border and with the Swedish islands in the Baltic.

Where Russia could sort of operate under the radar in the past, their every move around the world is now scrutinized.

I saw a news report that discussed Putin's recent visit to China.  He was essentially snubbed by the boss, Xi Jinping.  Other than some gum flapping, he received nothing.  Xi knows where his bread is buttered.  It's the Chinese trade with the rest of the world.  All of those excess electric cars China built are waiting to be sold in Europe and not Russia.

The people left in Ukraine will hate them for a generation.  They may have to mass deport to Siberia as Russia has done in the past.  Then who will rebuild Ukraine and operate its industries?

The people around Putin have to know the excrement is hitting the fan.  What is happening is not good for the country or for them.  What's it called when you keep doing the same stupid actions that don't work over and over?  Russians have to realize that they are at a point of instability vis a vis in their relations with the rest of the world.

Maybe, if the world sufficiently arms Ukraine, the Russians will eventually figure out that the invasion was a really bad idea.

And,.....The Russians seem to have similar plans for Georgia.

Radagast

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4442 on: May 16, 2024, 06:55:33 PM »
In terms of running out of bodies and resources, Ukraine will run out long before Russia.
Russia has a much bigger population, higher GDP per capita, far more financial reserves, and their industrial base and infrastructure are relatively untouched, notwithstanding isolated drone strikes on refineries. As if this war wasn't lopsided enough, Russia also has the manufacturing capacity of Iran, North Korea, and China at their disposal. Economic superpowers India and China are buying their hydrocarbons, so sanctions are simply Western hand-washing. Russia is recruiting mercenaries from China, Nepal, India, Syria, Cuba, Venezuela, and its colonized parts of Africa.

Ukraine is the underdog here, and will eventually run out of soldiers and infrastructure. The Western plan to trickle intermittent, old supplies to Ukraine in order to weaken Russia is about to reach an inflection point, where a decision will have to be made to actively save Ukraine or not. It is doubtful the U.S. will do much more, with most of the Republican party on Russia's side. The Poles, Germans, and the Czechs may take a more active role in the absence of U.S. leadership.

So far the Ukrainians have been smart to mostly play defense, inflicting asymmetrical casualties on the Russians amid meat assaults on the open Eastern minefields. This is buying time, preventing greater losses, and bringing the two armies slightly closer to parity in terms of vehicles and soldiers, but it is also consuming scarce ammo and soldiers at a probably faster pace than Ukraine can replenish them. Russia's massive advantage in artillery shell production threatens to turn the tables on Ukraine's defensive strategy.
https://phillipspobrien.substack.com/p/numbers-of-soldiers-does-not-win?utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2

Radagast

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4443 on: May 16, 2024, 07:12:13 PM »
I'm essentially with zolotiyeruki. Here is how I still see it (quote below). At the beginning of the war Russia needed less than 200,000 soldiers to advance across 1/3 of Ukraine. They were the well trained and well equipment first string army with the best first string equipment. They're all gone now. Right now, they have 600,000 soldiers in the same places, and yet they aren't nearly as effective as the original force despite being >3x more numerous. That's because they aren't well trained, and they don't have as much equipment, and even if they do it's much lower quality. Every year of the war, the cost in lives and equipment goes up for Russia. Next year they may need 800,000 soldiers to accomplish the same effectiveness. The year after that 1,000,000. The first year they took 100,000 casualties. The next year 200,000. This year likely 300,000. Next year 400,000? The percentage of military spending of their economy is rising. Their large supply of Soviet equipment has been a huge source of resilience, but as it dwindles they need to drastically increase their spending, and to the extent they don't or can't, they'll have to throw more bodies to accomplish the same thing. Every year of the war has been the best it will ever be for Russia. Like Top is in, but for real.

So, IMO Ukraine will eventually win, contingent upon
1) Decision of other nations to supply Ukraine with adequate arms
2) Decision of China not to supply Russia with adequate arms

But why not keep the cost to Ukraine as low as possible? US and EU have not exactly been inspiring since August 2022.

Here's sort of a mental model of how I see this playing out. In the 1st year Russia could deliver 4,000 operational first and second rate tanks to Ukraine. In the 2nd year they could deliver 3,000 mostly second rate. In the 3rd year they can deliver 2,000. In the 4th year 1,000, then 500 per year indefinitely. Each year they lose half of everything fielded, and half of what is left is cannibalized to keep the last quarter running, so they retain 25%. That gives the following numbers of tanks fielded per year:
4,000 (2022)
4,000 (2023)
3,000 (2024)
1,750 (2025)
938 (2026)
... converging to 666. They will never actually run out of tanks (or anything else), but numbers and quality in the field will drop below what is needed to sustain the intensity of the combat. So the first and second years are quite sustainable, but things get rougher in the 3rd year and dire beyond that. There is a huge drop as they transition from their stockpiles to their production capacity.  My argument is that sometime between Russian intensity of 4,000 and 666 tanks fielded per year Ukraine will become strong enough to overwhelm their efforts. In practice it will look like Russia suffering proportionally more and more personnel casualties to accomplish less and less.

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4444 on: May 17, 2024, 08:16:52 AM »
Rheinmetall is going to build multiple plants in Ukraine in the near future.

How does that work? Won't Russia just bomb the factories repeatedly?

Cawl

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4445 on: May 17, 2024, 08:39:47 AM »
I'm essentially with zolotiyeruki. Here is how I still see it (quote below). At the beginning of the war Russia needed less than 200,000 soldiers to advance across 1/3 of Ukraine. They were the well trained and well equipment first string army with the best first string equipment. They're all gone now. Right now, they have 600,000 soldiers in the same places, and yet they aren't nearly as effective as the original force despite being >3x more numerous. That's because they aren't well trained, and they don't have as much equipment, and even if they do it's much lower quality. Every year of the war, the cost in lives and equipment goes up for Russia. Next year they may need 800,000 soldiers to accomplish the same effectiveness. The year after that 1,000,000. The first year they took 100,000 casualties. The next year 200,000. This year likely 300,000. Next year 400,000? The percentage of military spending of their economy is rising. Their large supply of Soviet equipment has been a huge source of resilience, but as it dwindles they need to drastically increase their spending, and to the extent they don't or can't, they'll have to throw more bodies to accomplish the same thing. Every year of the war has been the best it will ever be for Russia. Like Top is in, but for real.

So, IMO Ukraine will eventually win, contingent upon
1) Decision of other nations to supply Ukraine with adequate arms
2) Decision of China not to supply Russia with adequate arms

But why not keep the cost to Ukraine as low as possible? US and EU have not exactly been inspiring since August 2022.

Here's sort of a mental model of how I see this playing out. In the 1st year Russia could deliver 4,000 operational first and second rate tanks to Ukraine. In the 2nd year they could deliver 3,000 mostly second rate. In the 3rd year they can deliver 2,000. In the 4th year 1,000, then 500 per year indefinitely. Each year they lose half of everything fielded, and half of what is left is cannibalized to keep the last quarter running, so they retain 25%. That gives the following numbers of tanks fielded per year:
4,000 (2022)
4,000 (2023)
3,000 (2024)
1,750 (2025)
938 (2026)
... converging to 666. They will never actually run out of tanks (or anything else), but numbers and quality in the field will drop below what is needed to sustain the intensity of the combat. So the first and second years are quite sustainable, but things get rougher in the 3rd year and dire beyond that. There is a huge drop as they transition from their stockpiles to their production capacity.  My argument is that sometime between Russian intensity of 4,000 and 666 tanks fielded per year Ukraine will become strong enough to overwhelm their efforts. In practice it will look like Russia suffering proportionally more and more personnel casualties to accomplish less and less.

https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/attritional-art-war-lessons-russian-war-ukraine

I would recommend reading that. The point now is to kill as many Ukrainians as possible. Something the Ukrainian government is more than willing to do.

Cawl

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4446 on: May 17, 2024, 08:40:13 AM »
Rheinmetall is going to build multiple plants in Ukraine in the near future.

How does that work? Won't Russia just bomb the factories repeatedly?

Yes.

LennStar

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4447 on: May 17, 2024, 08:50:44 AM »
Rheinmetall is going to build multiple plants in Ukraine in the near future.

How does that work? Won't Russia just bomb the factories repeatedly?

Assuming Russia finds them, there is still the question of how to hit them.

I am pretty sure Rheinmetall will not build them in the Donetzk region, and they will likely be heavy protected.
In short, nothing aside a ballistic missile will have a realistic chance. (That is part of the reason why keeping the sea around Odessa free is so important. It adds another 200km "safe zone")

Afaik Ukrainian war factories have only been hit once or twice effectivly in this zone after the Russian fleet retreated.

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4448 on: May 17, 2024, 08:52:04 AM »
The point now is to kill as many Ukrainians as possible. Something the Ukrainian government is more than willing to do.

You mixed up Russians and Ukrainians.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4449 on: May 17, 2024, 09:03:13 AM »
I would recommend reading that. The point now is to kill as many Ukrainians as possible. Something the Ukrainian government is more than willing to do.
Ah, our local Russian apologist has returned!

How does that work? Won't Russia just bomb the factories repeatedly?

Yes.
You mean, the same way they've been destroying Ukrainian military production over the past two years?  Oh, wait, they've failed spectacularly on that front.

As a reminder, Rheinmetall is the manufacturer of the rather colorfully-named "flugabwehrkanonenpanzer gepard" - i.e. a tank with twin radar-guided 35 mm Oerlikon GDF autocannons.  They've proven rather adept at shooting down Russian and Iranian drones.  I'm sure they can defend themselves :D