Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 563989 times)

YttriumNitrate

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1842
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2250 on: September 22, 2022, 03:56:38 PM »
The utility of a tactical nuclear strike is pretty limited. If we were talking Cold War era with hundreds of tanks or armored vehicles and thousands of troops massed together at some chokepoint or at some salient then perhaps it could have been effective. But with precision guided weapons and a lot lower density on the battlefield it just doesn't make sense. A tactical nuke might kill most everyone within a mile or so but that would mean Russian troops would need to pull back from the front to avoid being killed as well.
If anything, a chemical or biological attack from Russia would be better suited for this situation and would not draw quite the same international response as a nuclear attack.

PeteD01

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1395
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2251 on: September 22, 2022, 05:01:42 PM »
These guys got a lesson regarding the relationship of the fascist state and its subjects - even hollering on the street in support of the government is suspicious activity because it shows political engagement which is strongly discouraged in the established fascist state. Funny this:


Russian men who backed Putin left in shock after being forcefully taken away by military
A video has emerged in which Russian men who backed President Vladimir Putin's mobilisation move were seen forcefully being taken away by military.

Three Russian men who backed President Vladimir Putin's mobilisation move ended in disbelief after they were forcefully taken away as conscripts. A video of three Russian men who came out in support of Putin`s mobilisation and to condemn the people protesting against it being forcefully taken away by the military has surfaced on social media.

https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/russian-men-backed-putin-forcefully-taken-away-military-video-2003190-2022-09-22?utm_source=rss
Yeah I don't think that's what's happening here. The police are dragging some loud drunks off the street maybe, but that's not a forced mobilization in the video.

Probably, but it does make the point that it does not pay to cheer on the fascist state in a hilarious way.
In the real world, the mobilization for the trip to the slaughterhouse looks more like this:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1573050840772136960

TomTX

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5345
  • Location: Texas
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2252 on: September 22, 2022, 09:25:45 PM »
Can Russia supply the newly recruited men with adequate equipment?  Is their manufacturing capability adequate to produce what their soldiers need?  Even when the war was going well for Russia, Russians traded some of what was issued to them for better Ukrainian gear.
No. They do not have adequate modern equipment or supplies for these conscripts, nor the capability to build most modern equipment including things like the cassette wheel bearings for trains, or high strength steel for artillery barrels. Can they build some stuff? Sure. Think 1970s vintage.   

Plus they already grabbed a large portion of their training cadre and shipped them off to the meat grinder.

In other news: Ukraine Ministry of Defense dropped a new video - well worth watching, it's under a minute.

https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/xl4s62/ukrainian_mod_just_dropped_new_gem/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3[/quote]

Jack0Life

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 597
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2253 on: September 22, 2022, 11:03:25 PM »
Putin has painted himself into a corner unless he has a sudden reversal of fortune in Ukraine. I fear that he may resort to nukes if enouhg Ukranian forces mass in a location that they could be used effectively against them, or there is an alternate strategic location to strike. I honestly don't know what a  response to that action would look like.

Yeah I've been thinking a lot on how the world will response on a nuclear attack.
I honestly don't think the world will use nuclear arsenal back as this will escalate quicky.
As someone else said, retaliation maybe just normal weaponry but if NATO get onboard, Russia could be taken out fairly quickly.
I wonder what if the world offer a huge reward(like $1 billion) for Putin's head, would anyone close to him want to take him out. I mean the whole shebang. Huge reward, payable to family if you die. Full amnesty. whenever you want to live. This is of course after he decide to use nukes.

Mr FrugalNL

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 174
  • Location: Netherlands
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2254 on: September 22, 2022, 11:50:02 PM »
Probably, but it does make the point that it does not pay to cheer on the fascist state in a hilarious way.
In the real world, the mobilization for the trip to the slaughterhouse looks more like this:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1573050840772136960

Conan would approve. The lamentations of their women have already started. I couldn't help but feel sorry for them while watching that.

zolotiyeruki

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5626
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2255 on: September 23, 2022, 07:28:20 AM »
Putin has painted himself into a corner unless he has a sudden reversal of fortune in Ukraine. I fear that he may resort to nukes if enouhg Ukranian forces mass in a location that they could be used effectively against them, or there is an alternate strategic location to strike. I honestly don't know what a  response to that action would look like.

Yeah I've been thinking a lot on how the world will response on a nuclear attack.
I honestly don't think the world will use nuclear arsenal back as this will escalate quicky.
As someone else said, retaliation maybe just normal weaponry but if NATO get onboard, Russia could be taken out fairly quickly.
I wonder what if the world offer a huge reward(like $1 billion) for Putin's head, would anyone close to him want to take him out. I mean the whole shebang. Huge reward, payable to family if you die. Full amnesty. whenever you want to live. This is of course after he decide to use nukes.
This is probably the 12-year-old in me, but I'm hoping the US has a submarine shadowing every sub and deployed surface ship Russia has, plus target coordinates for every military base, factory, and depot, and if Putin detonates a nuke, the rest of Russia's military just goes *poof* in a matter of hours.

Just Joe

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6802
  • Location: In the middle....
  • Teach me something.
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2256 on: September 23, 2022, 07:48:44 AM »
Last night's news said that men arrested for protests are being handed draft papers at the police station. I can go back and find the video if you like.

lemanfan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1271
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2257 on: September 23, 2022, 08:01:13 AM »
Putin has painted himself into a corner unless he has a sudden reversal of fortune in Ukraine. I fear that he may resort to nukes if enouhg Ukranian forces mass in a location that they could be used effectively against them, or there is an alternate strategic location to strike. I honestly don't know what a  response to that action would look like.

Yeah I've been thinking a lot on how the world will response on a nuclear attack.
I honestly don't think the world will use nuclear arsenal back as this will escalate quicky.
As someone else said, retaliation maybe just normal weaponry but if NATO get onboard, Russia could be taken out fairly quickly.
I wonder what if the world offer a huge reward(like $1 billion) for Putin's head, would anyone close to him want to take him out. I mean the whole shebang. Huge reward, payable to family if you die. Full amnesty. whenever you want to live. This is of course after he decide to use nukes.
This is probably the 12-year-old in me, but I'm hoping the US has a submarine shadowing every sub and deployed surface ship Russia has, plus target coordinates for every military base, factory, and depot, and if Putin detonates a nuke, the rest of Russia's military just goes *poof* in a matter of hours.

Let's start with a certain little datcha on the Black Sea coast.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 08:04:34 AM by lemanfan »

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3699
  • Location: Germany
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2258 on: September 23, 2022, 08:19:48 AM »
Seems there is a secret (7) part in the mobilization that means that 1,2 million could be mobilized, not the 300K that were announced. (And also seems students etc. without any training at all are getting conscripted.)
 
The only thing I can imagine those would be of use its to to backpack transport food for the guys actually fighting.


Also earlier on twitter I made a half-joke about how soldiers with gun will make sure you vote in the referendum and that the vote is not accidentally put in the wrong place.
Looks like reality got the joke on me here. It get's noting of someone puts a "no" down. (Well, hard to say how much is true on that.)

But the best thing today is that Ukraine wins this weeks PR battle, too! And by what a margin, if you look at moscow...

https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/xl4s62/ukrainian_mod_just_dropped_new_gem/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 08:23:51 AM by LennStar »

Jack0Life

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 597
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2259 on: September 23, 2022, 10:40:12 PM »
Putin has painted himself into a corner unless he has a sudden reversal of fortune in Ukraine. I fear that he may resort to nukes if enouhg Ukranian forces mass in a location that they could be used effectively against them, or there is an alternate strategic location to strike. I honestly don't know what a  response to that action would look like.

Yeah I've been thinking a lot on how the world will response on a nuclear attack.
I honestly don't think the world will use nuclear arsenal back as this will escalate quicky.
As someone else said, retaliation maybe just normal weaponry but if NATO get onboard, Russia could be taken out fairly quickly.
I wonder what if the world offer a huge reward(like $1 billion) for Putin's head, would anyone close to him want to take him out. I mean the whole shebang. Huge reward, payable to family if you die. Full amnesty. whenever you want to live. This is of course after he decide to use nukes.
This is probably the 12-year-old in me, but I'm hoping the US has a submarine shadowing every sub and deployed surface ship Russia has, plus target coordinates for every military base, factory, and depot, and if Putin detonates a nuke, the rest of Russia's military just goes *poof* in a matter of hours.

That's the 12 yr old part of me too.
If he decided to use nukes, the US/NATO has his coordinates and just fire a nuke and kill him. YES a lot of innocent lives will be lost but we all know this can't be escalated.

Nords

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3426
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Oahu
    • Military Retirement & Financial Independence blog
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2260 on: September 24, 2022, 11:16:19 AM »
This is probably the 12-year-old in me, but I'm hoping the US has a submarine shadowing every sub and deployed surface ship Russia has, plus target coordinates for every military base, factory, and depot, and if Putin detonates a nuke, the rest of Russia's military just goes *poof* in a matter of hours.
The U.S. submarine force started doing this in the 1940s with diesel boats and Regulus missiles.

Today we're doing it with the world's best submarines, crews, and weapons (I might be biased) and we're joined by the Air Force & Space Force.  We'll keep doing it.

More importantly, the Russians are keenly aware of this mutual assured destruction strategy and its targeting tactics.
 Almost all of their government understands the consequences of first use.   

Sibley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7487
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2261 on: September 24, 2022, 08:06:38 PM »
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/23/us/politics/putin-ukraine.html

NYT reporting that Putin is getting involved in strategy again/still/more. The military wants to pull back, Putin said no. It doesn't seem like a good idea for someone who doesn't have the training in military strategy to set military strategy.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

  • Guest
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2262 on: September 24, 2022, 08:18:08 PM »
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/23/us/politics/putin-ukraine.html

NYT reporting that Putin is getting involved in strategy again/still/more. The military wants to pull back, Putin said no. It doesn't seem like a good idea for someone who doesn't have the training in military strategy to set military strategy.
The China/India reception has been rather bleak for Putin, so it is surprising the betting markets (such that they are allowed to exist) don't calculate more short-term risk for Putin. The mobilization is a decision sharply in the direction of the nationalist hard-liners, which is consistent with Putin's refusal to retrench to allow for any strategic retreats. My current assessment is the probability of a coup against Putin is undervalued, but if he can survive the next few weeks without a significant military setback, he will survive the year, at least. That is probably why he is calling the shots right now.

Mr FrugalNL

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 174
  • Location: Netherlands
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2263 on: September 25, 2022, 12:19:28 AM »

Jack0Life

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 597
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2264 on: September 25, 2022, 04:59:28 PM »
Just watching the interview with Jake Sullivan, the National Security Advisor. They have private direct exchanges with high level Russia military people and have been told several times that if Putin uses nuke(s), the retaliation will be catastrophic.

rocketpj

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 969
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2265 on: September 25, 2022, 05:29:31 PM »
"Just watching the interview with Jake Sullivan, the National Security Advisor. They have private direct exchanges with high level Russia military people and have been told several times that if Putin uses nuke(s), the retaliation will be catastrophic. "

That's the strength/insanity of nuclear deterrence.  What it means is that if you make the decision to use a nuke, you should logically use ALL of your nukes IMMEDIATELY, in the hopes of eliminating your opponents' ability to respond.  Conversely, if you see a single nuke launch, you logically should launch ALL IMMEDIATELY because the rest are coming and you want to get them before they eliminate your ability to respond.

And so the world ends when one asshole decides he'd rather destroy the world than lose face.  Does anyone imagine that Hitler would have chosen not to use nukes if he had them?

waltworks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5659
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2266 on: September 25, 2022, 06:17:21 PM »
This is probably the 12-year-old in me, but I'm hoping the US has a submarine shadowing every sub and deployed surface ship Russia has, plus target coordinates for every military base, factory, and depot, and if Putin detonates a nuke, the rest of Russia's military just goes *poof* in a matter of hours.

My inner 12 year old has had similar fantasies.

Unfortunately (assuming we used nukes on all that stuff) we'd have solved one climate crisis but created another of the opposite sort.

-W

Abe

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2647
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2267 on: September 25, 2022, 07:23:09 PM »
That is our plan, and given the poor condition of Russia’s submarine fleet, probably feasible. Unfortunately taking out the ICBMs in particular would require nuclear weapons.  The fallout would be monstrous, and make China along with parts of other former Soviet republics very unhappy collateral casualties. The humanitarian damage and civilians injured would easily top 100 million, not including the tens of millions dead.

 I think in terms of conventional war and Putin’s meddling in strategy: we’re in the next act of the James Bond movie where the supervillain yells at his henchmen and incompetently micromanages their final demise. I do stand by prior predictions that this will take longer than Ukrainians can hold out, and ultimately an armistice line will be negotiated at roughly current positions.

pecunia

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2862
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2268 on: September 25, 2022, 07:53:12 PM »
That is our plan, and given the poor condition of Russia’s submarine fleet, probably feasible. Unfortunately taking out the ICBMs in particular would require nuclear weapons.  The fallout would be monstrous, and make China along with parts of other former Soviet republics very unhappy collateral casualties. The humanitarian damage and civilians injured would easily top 100 million, not including the tens of millions dead.

 I think in terms of conventional war and Putin’s meddling in strategy: we’re in the next act of the James Bond movie where the supervillain yells at his henchmen and incompetently micromanages their final demise. I do stand by prior predictions that this will take longer than Ukrainians can hold out, and ultimately an armistice line will be negotiated at roughly current positions.

It just wouldn't seem right for Russia to get that land.  It would be as though Putin ultimately won.  He doesn't care about his dead Russian soldiers.  Does Karma apply to entire countries?

waltworks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5659
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2269 on: September 25, 2022, 08:40:47 PM »
That is our plan, and given the poor condition of Russia’s submarine fleet, probably feasible. Unfortunately taking out the ICBMs in particular would require nuclear weapons.  The fallout would be monstrous, and make China along with parts of other former Soviet republics very unhappy collateral casualties. The humanitarian damage and civilians injured would easily top 100 million, not including the tens of millions dead.

 I think in terms of conventional war and Putin’s meddling in strategy: we’re in the next act of the James Bond movie where the supervillain yells at his henchmen and incompetently micromanages their final demise. I do stand by prior predictions that this will take longer than Ukrainians can hold out, and ultimately an armistice line will be negotiated at roughly current positions.

Current positions haven't been real static lately, though. It might be me reading too much Trent Talenko, but I've gone (over the last 7 months) from "Russia will roll over them, that's a bummer," to "Oh hey, they'll keep Kiev," to "well shit, Russia is actually losing," to "Russia is totally f'd."

My point is that everyone (myself included) seems to have consistently overestimated Russia. Their professional military is in shreds now and Ukraine is better armed/trained by the day. If they're really lucky they can hold on until winter when their new recruits arrive to... freeze to death?

My predictions are worth exactly what you just paid for them, of course.

-W

Abe

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2647
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2270 on: September 25, 2022, 08:50:34 PM »
That is our plan, and given the poor condition of Russia’s submarine fleet, probably feasible. Unfortunately taking out the ICBMs in particular would require nuclear weapons.  The fallout would be monstrous, and make China along with parts of other former Soviet republics very unhappy collateral casualties. The humanitarian damage and civilians injured would easily top 100 million, not including the tens of millions dead.

 I think in terms of conventional war and Putin’s meddling in strategy: we’re in the next act of the James Bond movie where the supervillain yells at his henchmen and incompetently micromanages their final demise. I do stand by prior predictions that this will take longer than Ukrainians can hold out, and ultimately an armistice line will be negotiated at roughly current positions.

It just wouldn't seem right for Russia to get that land.  It would be as though Putin ultimately won.  He doesn't care about his dead Russian soldiers.  Does Karma apply to entire countries?

I wish, at least to their governments (and fraction of population supporting this stupidity). It is concerning that Ukraine has made little progress in Kherson (southern front) after speeding across the relatively less occupied northern front. Reports suggest this is because the south is being defended by the brunt of Russia's regular army, such as it remains; the north was defended by irregulars and conscripts. This lack of reinforcements to the north suggests that Putin is obsessed with holding the southern part of the occupied territories, and would basically destroy everything within it before letting go.

With ~300k conscripts being sent to reinforce these positions, I will be surprised if Ukraine can over-run the area without a large-scale slaughter of Russian forces or retreat/surrender of conscripts. The former depends on a even stronger influx of long-range weapons to Ukraine (to push the line rather than just maintain it and disrupt Russian logistics), which has not been forthcoming even after their successful push in the north.

If they don't have these weapons, the question becomes what do the Russian conscripts fear more: being shot for desertion / retreating versus being shot or captured by Ukrainian forces? I don't know that they will be able to organize an effective coupe from the front lines, and it seems that a large fraction of Russian civilians (conscripts or not) are unwilling to stage a revolt either.

It worth reviewing maps from these think thanks (which do a good job of scraping data from social media and official reports)

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/ukraine-conflict-updates
https://www.csis.org/analysis/mapping-ukraines-military-advances

Especially note the latter's front line markings from June versus September along the south - basically no progress either way. This is oddly reminiscent of WWI (especially given the significant reliance on artillery rather than tanks or airpower for both sides). I do agree that Russia is eventually screwed, but that can be a very long eventually. Unless the West provides Ukraine with air superiority (which they've refused to do to avoid provoking Russia), they'll continue firing at each other with artillery +/- drones for years to come.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2022, 08:57:55 PM by Abe »

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3699
  • Location: Germany
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2271 on: September 25, 2022, 11:45:34 PM »
My point is that everyone (myself included) seems to have consistently overestimated Russia. Their professional military is in shreds now and Ukraine is better armed/trained by the day. If they're really lucky they can hold on until winter when their new recruits arrive to... freeze to death?
According to the Ukrainians the Russians are sending their recruits directly to the front without training. It makes sense, since Putin fears any more advancement and trainers are all on the front, on the other hand, in the long term that makes it even worse - if that is true, of course. Would be the perfect propaganda to incite more resistance.

zolotiyeruki

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5626
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2272 on: September 26, 2022, 04:53:50 AM »
That is our plan, and given the poor condition of Russia’s submarine fleet, probably feasible. Unfortunately taking out the ICBMs in particular would require nuclear weapons.  The fallout would be monstrous, and make China along with parts of other former Soviet republics very unhappy collateral casualties. The humanitarian damage and civilians injured would easily top 100 million, not including the tens of millions dead.

 I think in terms of conventional war and Putin’s meddling in strategy: we’re in the next act of the James Bond movie where the supervillain yells at his henchmen and incompetently micromanages their final demise. I do stand by prior predictions that this will take longer than Ukrainians can hold out, and ultimately an armistice line will be negotiated at roughly current positions.

It just wouldn't seem right for Russia to get that land.  It would be as though Putin ultimately won.  He doesn't care about his dead Russian soldiers.  Does Karma apply to entire countries?

I wish, at least to their governments (and fraction of population supporting this stupidity). It is concerning that Ukraine has made little progress in Kherson (southern front) after speeding across the relatively less occupied northern front. Reports suggest this is because the south is being defended by the brunt of Russia's regular army, such as it remains; the north was defended by irregulars and conscripts. This lack of reinforcements to the north suggests that Putin is obsessed with holding the southern part of the occupied territories, and would basically destroy everything within it before letting go.
...
Especially note the latter's front line markings from June versus September along the south - basically no progress either way. This is oddly reminiscent of WWI (especially given the significant reliance on artillery rather than tanks or airpower for both sides). I do agree that Russia is eventually screwed, but that can be a very long eventually. Unless the West provides Ukraine with air superiority (which they've refused to do to avoid provoking Russia), they'll continue firing at each other with artillery +/- drones for years to come.
You're right that the lines haven't moved much.  Given the fact that the ground there is pretty level, it's difficult to make progress.  That said, some things *have* changed:  specifically, Russia's logistics have gotten significantly worse in the south, thanks to HIMARS.  While Ukraine has been very tight-lipped about their own losses, Russia *is* taking a lot of losses on the southern front.  Perhaps not enough to allow a Ukrainian breakthrough, but enough that Russia has had to strip their northern front in order to hold Kherson.

The presence of HIMARS, plus Russia's lack of an equivalent, is huge.  It means Ukraine can station their supplies closer to the front lines, while Russia has to keep theirs much further back.  It gives Ukraine a whole lot more targets to hit.  The fact that we've seen HIMARS recently used against Russian front-line trenches is telling--it means Ukraine can afford to spend valuable, expensive missiles on lower-value targets.  So either Russia has moved the higher-value targets further away from the front, or Ukraine lacks intelligence on their location, or Ukraine just ran out of ammo dumps to blow up.

pecunia

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2862
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2273 on: September 26, 2022, 06:23:56 AM »
That is our plan, and given the poor condition of Russia’s submarine fleet, probably feasible. Unfortunately taking out the ICBMs in particular would require nuclear weapons.  The fallout would be monstrous, and make China along with parts of other former Soviet republics very unhappy collateral casualties. The humanitarian damage and civilians injured would easily top 100 million, not including the tens of millions dead.

 I think in terms of conventional war and Putin’s meddling in strategy: we’re in the next act of the James Bond movie where the supervillain yells at his henchmen and incompetently micromanages their final demise. I do stand by prior predictions that this will take longer than Ukrainians can hold out, and ultimately an armistice line will be negotiated at roughly current positions.

It just wouldn't seem right for Russia to get that land.  It would be as though Putin ultimately won.  He doesn't care about his dead Russian soldiers.  Does Karma apply to entire countries?

I wish, at least to their governments (and fraction of population supporting this stupidity). It is concerning that Ukraine has made little progress in Kherson (southern front) after speeding across the relatively less occupied northern front. Reports suggest this is because the south is being defended by the brunt of Russia's regular army, such as it remains; the north was defended by irregulars and conscripts. This lack of reinforcements to the north suggests that Putin is obsessed with holding the southern part of the occupied territories, and would basically destroy everything within it before letting go.
...
Especially note the latter's front line markings from June versus September along the south - basically no progress either way. This is oddly reminiscent of WWI (especially given the significant reliance on artillery rather than tanks or airpower for both sides). I do agree that Russia is eventually screwed, but that can be a very long eventually. Unless the West provides Ukraine with air superiority (which they've refused to do to avoid provoking Russia), they'll continue firing at each other with artillery +/- drones for years to come.
You're right that the lines haven't moved much.  Given the fact that the ground there is pretty level, it's difficult to make progress.  That said, some things *have* changed:  specifically, Russia's logistics have gotten significantly worse in the south, thanks to HIMARS.  While Ukraine has been very tight-lipped about their own losses, Russia *is* taking a lot of losses on the southern front.  Perhaps not enough to allow a Ukrainian breakthrough, but enough that Russia has had to strip their northern front in order to hold Kherson.

The presence of HIMARS, plus Russia's lack of an equivalent, is huge.  It means Ukraine can station their supplies closer to the front lines, while Russia has to keep theirs much further back.  It gives Ukraine a whole lot more targets to hit.  The fact that we've seen HIMARS recently used against Russian front-line trenches is telling--it means Ukraine can afford to spend valuable, expensive missiles on lower-value targets.  So either Russia has moved the higher-value targets further away from the front, or Ukraine lacks intelligence on their location, or Ukraine just ran out of ammo dumps to blow up.

I kind of wonder with them trapped in Kherson West of the river if this is a little like shooting the chickens in a henhouse.  The Russians have no where to hide.  They can just slowly pick them off as the Russians run out of ammunition.  Why rush in?

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3699
  • Location: Germany
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2274 on: September 26, 2022, 10:54:14 AM »
That is also an important point I read at one commentor. The Russians where so friendly to obliege the Ukrainians in relocating a lot of troops into a hard to supply position from which they can't really retreat without getting a heavy blow.

So there are a lot of troops pinned down in a location where it's easy to destroy their supply convois and where they can't do a successful attack nor retreat.
Why wasting your troops attacking that position? Just let time wear them down and destroy more of Russian supply capability, all teh while you are taking back areas in another part of the country.

Speaking of which there seems to be another deep attack in the North of that important railway town from last week.

Glenstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3496
  • Age: 94
  • Location: Upper left corner
  • FI(lean) working on the "RE"
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2275 on: September 26, 2022, 12:56:16 PM »
I have also heard a concept put forward that there is beneift in not routing Russia quickly from Ukraine (being able to actually do that is a separate question) because a fast, total rout would be so destabilizing to Putin that he may be more likely to use nukes. A slow grind may be a less volatile way to have Russia lose. I don't have the background to know if this is valid, but it seems that the risk of instability in Russia is a real one based on the somewhat unprecedented response to the recent mobilization/conscription effort.

Radagast

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2560
  • One Does Not Simply Work Into Mordor
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2276 on: September 26, 2022, 02:18:57 PM »
That is also an important point I read at one commentor. The Russians where so friendly to obliege the Ukrainians in relocating a lot of troops into a hard to supply position from which they can't really retreat without getting a heavy blow.

So there are a lot of troops pinned down in a location where it's easy to destroy their supply convois and where they can't do a successful attack nor retreat.
Why wasting your troops attacking that position? Just let time wear them down and destroy more of Russian supply capability, all teh while you are taking back areas in another part of the country.

Speaking of which there seems to be another deep attack in the North of that important railway town from last week.
This is exactly what I would have said. The Russians in Kherson are militarily ineffective for any purpose except occupying Kherson, and it takes all of them and a lot of supplies to just barely do it. There is no strategic objective on that side of the river: no power plants, canal controls, Crimea bridges, nothing worth big losses to retake. In fact, retaking Kherson might actually do the Russians a favor: they would finally have a defensible perimeter and reasonable supply routes for the first time in the war. Plus, Chernobaivka airport is the gift that keeps on giving, why would anyone take that away? I wouldn't really expect a big push there at a minimum until everything is about ready to fall apart, possibly when the weather starts to get bad and Russian supplies are strained to breaking.

Telecaster

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3576
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2277 on: September 26, 2022, 03:56:09 PM »
This is exactly what I would have said. The Russians in Kherson are militarily ineffective for any purpose except occupying Kherson, and it takes all of them and a lot of supplies to just barely do it. There is no strategic objective on that side of the river: no power plants, canal controls, Crimea bridges, nothing worth big losses to retake. In fact, retaking Kherson might actually do the Russians a favor: they would finally have a defensible perimeter and reasonable supply routes for the first time in the war. Plus, Chernobaivka airport is the gift that keeps on giving, why would anyone take that away? I wouldn't really expect a big push there at a minimum until everything is about ready to fall apart, possibly when the weather starts to get bad and Russian supplies are strained to breaking.

There is some evidence Russian commanders would like to withdraw from Kherson, but have been blocked by Putin. 

WASHINGTON — President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia has thrust himself more directly into strategic planning for the war in Ukraine in recent weeks, American officials said, including rejecting requests from his commanders on the ground that they be allowed to retreat from the vital southern city of Kherson.

A withdrawal from Kherson would allow the Russian military to pull back across the Dnipro River in an orderly way, preserving its equipment and saving the lives of soldiers.

But such a retreat would be another humiliating public acknowledgment of Mr. Putin’s failure in the war, and would hand a second major victory to Ukraine in one month. Kherson was the first major city to fall to the Russians in the initial invasion, and remains the only regional capital under Moscow’s control. Retaking it would be a major accomplishment for President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine.


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/23/us/politics/putin-ukraine.html

BicycleB

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5271
  • Location: Coolest Neighborhood on Earth, They Say
  • Older than the internet, but not wiser... yet
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2278 on: September 26, 2022, 07:13:46 PM »
Sorry if this repeats something from upthread.

Apparently, the problems of Ukraine have left Putin's govt in enough disarray that when he scheduled a big speech - the one in which he eventually announced the "partial mobilization" - he no showed and did the speech the next morning instead. Author in the Atlantic points out that if Biden did that he'd be described as having an administration in chaos; same should apply to Russia. Author asserts that all signs point to increasing desperation in RU, an accelerating implosion.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/09/putin-speech-delay-ukraine-world-leaders/671495/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=atlantic-daily-newsletter&utm_content=20220926&utm_term=The%20Atlantic%20Daily

lemanfan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1271
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2279 on: September 27, 2022, 06:02:56 AM »
Have the Nord Stream gas pipeline sabotage made US news yet?  Here it's front page news including emergency government meetings and safety zones for naval traffic.

A friend in Germany talked about anti-inflation demonstrations there yesterday including banners calling for an "end the war on Russia" and to take Nord Stream 2 into production ASAP.   We might se more of that during the winter.



zolotiyeruki

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5626
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2280 on: September 27, 2022, 06:24:08 AM »
Have the Nord Stream gas pipeline sabotage made US news yet?  Here it's front page news including emergency government meetings and safety zones for naval traffic.

A friend in Germany talked about anti-inflation demonstrations there yesterday including banners calling for an "end the war on Russia" and to take Nord Stream 2 into production ASAP.   We might se more of that during the winter.
Are you referring to Russia's "maintenance" shutdown, or was there actual sabotage on top of that?

lemanfan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1271
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2281 on: September 27, 2022, 06:49:47 AM »
Have the Nord Stream gas pipeline sabotage made US news yet?  Here it's front page news including emergency government meetings and safety zones for naval traffic.

A friend in Germany talked about anti-inflation demonstrations there yesterday including banners calling for an "end the war on Russia" and to take Nord Stream 2 into production ASAP.   We might se more of that during the winter.
Are you referring to Russia's "maintenance" shutdown, or was there actual sabotage on top of that?

There are three major leaks that appeared in the pipelines yesterday, two in Nord Stream 1 and one in Nord Stream 2.  The pipelines were not in active use but still contained a lot of gas.

Some info here:  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63044747

The BBC article says "cause unknown" but everything points to man made leaks. 

A picture of the water surface above one of the leaks can be seen here:

https://www.forsvaret.dk/en/news/2022/gas-leak-in-the-baltic-sea/
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 06:51:43 AM by lemanfan »

pecunia

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2862
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2282 on: September 27, 2022, 07:16:57 AM »
Have the Nord Stream gas pipeline sabotage made US news yet?  Here it's front page news including emergency government meetings and safety zones for naval traffic.

A friend in Germany talked about anti-inflation demonstrations there yesterday including banners calling for an "end the war on Russia" and to take Nord Stream 2 into production ASAP.   We might se more of that during the winter.
Are you referring to Russia's "maintenance" shutdown, or was there actual sabotage on top of that?

There are three major leaks that appeared in the pipelines yesterday, two in Nord Stream 1 and one in Nord Stream 2.  The pipelines were not in active use but still contained a lot of gas.

Some info here:  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63044747

The BBC article says "cause unknown" but everything points to man made leaks. 

A picture of the water surface above one of the leaks can be seen here:

https://www.forsvaret.dk/en/news/2022/gas-leak-in-the-baltic-sea/


I don't think it would be the Ukrainians.  Could it be some sort of bizarre false flag operation by the Russians? They want Europe to fell the cold this Winter.  Some of the stuff they do seems bizarre.  the world is punishing them and they are striking back.

lemanfan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1271
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2283 on: September 27, 2022, 07:36:33 AM »
Seismic sensors in Sweden and Denmark have confirmed that there have been decent sized explosions in that part of the ocean: 

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/svt-avslojar-tva-explosioner-intill-nord-stream 

(i tried linking to the page translated by Google but the links got messed up.  Try yourself at https://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=sv&op=websites if you're curious about the text).
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 07:43:29 AM by lemanfan »

Mr FrugalNL

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 174
  • Location: Netherlands
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2284 on: September 27, 2022, 08:59:17 AM »
Meanwhile in Russia...

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/xov88y/russian_mobilized_men_are_asked_to_buy_pads_and/

...soldiers are asked to bring their own gear. What a shambles.

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3699
  • Location: Germany
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2285 on: September 27, 2022, 10:44:21 AM »
Have the Nord Stream gas pipeline sabotage made US news yet?  Here it's front page news including emergency government meetings and safety zones for naval traffic.

A friend in Germany talked about anti-inflation demonstrations there yesterday including banners calling for an "end the war on Russia" and to take Nord Stream 2 into production ASAP.   We might se more of that during the winter.
Postillon (reliable news on the internet since 1845): Greta Thunberg back from diving holiday!

https://twitter.com/Der_Postillon/status/1574777122631073793?s=20&t=G9sALDrjquR1z6bI_MAjmQ

And for the stuff the Russian recruits should bring, it's allegedly this:
https://twitter.com/AntonDykyi/status/1572897467783589888?s=20&t=OcGBePPrmC4b12OYMfEQig

Telecaster

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3576
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2286 on: September 27, 2022, 11:49:12 AM »
Meanwhile in Russia...

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/xov88y/russian_mobilized_men_are_asked_to_buy_pads_and/

...soldiers are asked to bring their own gear. What a shambles.

This is going to be a disaster.   The Russians are sending undertrained or even untrained men into combat with no equipment except presumably weapons.   And just before winter as well.   This cannot end well. 

Sibley

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7487
  • Location: Northwest Indiana
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2287 on: September 27, 2022, 01:25:01 PM »
What's the weather like in Ukraine? Where I am, we're apparently having an early fall (40s overnight a few days this week!). If winter comes early, anyone unprepared is going to have a very hard time. General Winter has been the death of more than one military action.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23257
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2288 on: September 27, 2022, 02:13:32 PM »
Meanwhile in Russia...

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/xov88y/russian_mobilized_men_are_asked_to_buy_pads_and/

...soldiers are asked to bring their own gear. What a shambles.

This is going to be a disaster.   The Russians are sending undertrained or even untrained men into combat with no equipment except presumably weapons.   And just before winter as well.   This cannot end well.

I seem to remember something similar going on in one of America's recent wars.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2008/feb/04/hillary-clinton/50000-started-war-without-body-armor/

TomTX

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5345
  • Location: Texas
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2289 on: September 27, 2022, 04:44:21 PM »
What's the weather like in Ukraine? Where I am, we're apparently having an early fall (40s overnight a few days this week!). If winter comes early, anyone unprepared is going to have a very hard time. General Winter has been the death of more than one military action.
Looks like frequent drizzle/rain. Lows in the 40s(F) starts in about a week.

TomTX

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5345
  • Location: Texas
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2290 on: September 27, 2022, 04:54:40 PM »
I wish, at least to their governments (and fraction of population supporting this stupidity). It is concerning that Ukraine has made little progress in Kherson (southern front) after speeding across the relatively less occupied northern front. Reports suggest this is because the south is being defended by the brunt of Russia's regular army, such as it remains; the north was defended by irregulars and conscripts. This lack of reinforcements to the north suggests that Putin is obsessed with holding the southern part of the occupied territories, and would basically destroy everything within it before letting go.
Makes a lot of sense to me. In the North, Ukraine showed they could punch through the defensive line and then just tear through very lightly defended rear areas. Remaining pieces of the original defensive line get surrounded and defeated, or scurry away leaving heavy equipment behind for Ukraine to capture and reuse.

Kherson is more heavily defended, better trained - and there's not really a lightly defended rear area because Dnipro river. The Ukrainians have done a masterful job with damaging the main bridge back to the rest of the Russian Army. Intact enough to walk across, it's too damaged for any heavy vehicles. This puts the Russians in a real Catch-22. Can't bring much in the way of supplies to Kherson, so they're burning through what they have. Even if Putin allowed a retreat - they're walking. They have to leave behind all their tanks, APCs, trucks, air defense, artillery, etc. Basically anything bigger than what a guy can carry.  Keep the Russians pinned down in Kherson and let their combat capability wither.

In the meantime, keep pushing in the North where it's much easier to regain territory.

zolotiyeruki

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5626
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2291 on: September 27, 2022, 07:06:08 PM »
*snicker* - "Green track suit" is on the list!

Fresh Bread

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3379
  • Location: Australia
  • Insert dough/bread/crust joke
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2292 on: September 27, 2022, 07:19:10 PM »
Has anyone claimed responsibility for blowing up the pipeline yet? I've seen nothing.

I can't fathom why anyone would, except maybe an environmental terrorist group? But then surely they'd claim it?

I know Russia make bizarre moves but why would they break it when they control the taps? Are they worried someone will invade and turn it back on again?

jinga nation

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2708
  • Age: 247
  • Location: 'Murica's Dong
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2293 on: September 27, 2022, 07:57:13 PM »
Meanwhile in Russia...

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/xov88y/russian_mobilized_men_are_asked_to_buy_pads_and/

...soldiers are asked to bring their own gear. What a shambles.

This is going to be a disaster.   The Russians are sending undertrained or even untrained men into combat with no equipment except presumably weapons.   And just before winter as well.   This cannot end well.

Read that Russia is sending farmers to front lines.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/farmers-among-russians-drafted-into-military-putin-says-2022-09-27/

They're shafted if they send their people who grow their grain.
Not only do they lose skilled talent and farm labor, they end up potentially with less supply, driving up prices, esp. vodka.
Putinomics!

TomTX

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5345
  • Location: Texas
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2294 on: September 27, 2022, 09:08:43 PM »
Read that Russia is sending farmers to front lines.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/farmers-among-russians-drafted-into-military-putin-says-2022-09-27/

They're shafted if they send their people who grow their grain.
Not only do they lose skilled talent and farm labor, they end up potentially with less supply, driving up prices, esp. vodka.
Putinomics!
They're sending surgeons to the front lines as basic conscripts. Not even to a field hospital. Give 'em a rusty AK and point 'em at Ukraine.

maizefolk

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7435
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2295 on: September 27, 2022, 10:04:41 PM »
Read that Russia is sending farmers to front lines.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/farmers-among-russians-drafted-into-military-putin-says-2022-09-27/

They're shafted if they send their people who grow their grain.
Not only do they lose skilled talent and farm labor, they end up potentially with less supply, driving up prices, esp. vodka.
Putinomics!

Russia was, until this past year, a major exporter of wheat to the rest of the world. Given the increasing sanctions they seem to be facing it wouldn't surprise me if they're facing the prospect of producing more wheat their their domestic market requires and have nothing to do with the surplus. Farmers may be one of the occupations than the russian economy is in a better position to spare than most at the moment.

Just Joe

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6802
  • Location: In the middle....
  • Teach me something.
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2296 on: September 28, 2022, 07:11:57 AM »
Has anyone claimed responsibility for blowing up the pipeline yet? I've seen nothing.

I can't fathom why anyone would, except maybe an environmental terrorist group? But then surely they'd claim it?

I know Russia make bizarre moves but why would they break it when they control the taps? Are they worried someone will invade and turn it back on again?

Was wondering about two things:

That long border Ukraine shares with Russian, what keeps that from being a long battle front forever?

Pipelines: how would you attack them? Does it require a submarine? An underwater drone usually has an umbilical cable for power and communications.

lemanfan

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1271
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2297 on: September 28, 2022, 07:51:13 AM »
Pipelines: how would you attack them? Does it require a submarine? An underwater drone usually has an umbilical cable for power and communications.

The depth would make it hard to impossible to use just human divers so yes, a manned submarine or some sort of drone-like thing would probably be used.  There are "tether-free" versions that can operate without that umbilical cable and partially autonomous.  The one made close to me that I know of is called "Saab Sabertooth" but I assume there are more manufacturers in all relevant countries.  Also remember that the explosives could have been placed there weeks or months ahead of time.

It is not that uncommon with media reports of Russian planes or ships to make strange maneuvers in the Baltic Sea region without explaining themselves.  Already in the year before the invasion on Feb 24, there was as much activity of this sort here as in the height of the cold war.   

Not to speak of all the cables on the ocean bed there, both electrical power and internet/telecom communication cables might already be prepared for a similar fate by the same actor.

Norway has also reported increased drone activity among their pipelines and oil/gas platforms recently. 
« Last Edit: September 28, 2022, 07:54:36 AM by lemanfan »

pecunia

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2862
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2298 on: September 28, 2022, 07:56:29 AM »
Has anyone claimed responsibility for blowing up the pipeline yet? I've seen nothing.

I can't fathom why anyone would, except maybe an environmental terrorist group? But then surely they'd claim it?

I know Russia make bizarre moves but why would they break it when they control the taps? Are they worried someone will invade and turn it back on again?

Was wondering about two things:

That long border Ukraine shares with Russian, what keeps that from being a long battle front forever?

Pipelines: how would you attack them? Does it require a submarine? An underwater drone usually has an umbilical cable for power and communications.

Are those big underwater pipes magnetic?    I do believe electromagnets would work fine underwater if kept dry.  How close would you have to be underwater with a big bang?  It seems like you would hear the sound of a magnetic bomb contacting a pipe. The timer could be set and you would be long gone.  But - I only watch movies.  It's a lot easier to destroy stuff than to build it.

Poundwise

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2077
Re: Ukraine
« Reply #2299 on: September 28, 2022, 08:52:09 AM »
If you had access to the pipe on dry land, couldn't you just send something through the pipe?