Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 582883 times)

LennStar

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3300 on: April 29, 2023, 05:50:30 AM »
For example, giving Ukraine 5 Gripens with 100 anti-AAA missiles is more effective for air capabilities than giving 10 planes with anti-air munitions.

Sorry, the swede in me caught that.  What is a Gripen in this context?
Swedish for Griffon, a multi-role fighter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen

lemanfan

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3301 on: April 29, 2023, 06:40:31 AM »
For example, giving Ukraine 5 Gripens with 100 anti-AAA missiles is more effective for air capabilities than giving 10 planes with anti-air munitions.

Sorry, the swede in me caught that.  What is a Gripen in this context?
Swedish for Griffon, a multi-role fighter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen

Thanks, I  know the SAAB Gripen very well. I hear it almost daily.  :)

I just didin't get the reference when you said "5 Gripen vs 10 planes".  I just misunderstood or didn't read the missile part.  Sorry.

LaineyAZ

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3302 on: April 29, 2023, 07:50:18 AM »
Just adding my appreciation to this discussion from those of us laypersons who find it hard to get a clear picture of what's happening in Ukraine.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3303 on: April 29, 2023, 08:40:53 AM »
I have a couple of thoughts about why the military supply, at least from the US, has been so slow to ramp up:
1) By gradually increasing it, there's no huge step change that Putin can claim push him over the edge and "made" him use nukes.
2) Cold, calculated realpolitik--this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to cripple Russia as a global power for generations, if not permanently.
Those are my leading contenders in that order, in addition to as michael in ABQ suggests beaucratic inertia and incompetence. 1) I can understand playing it safe, but if dictators can say "let me conquer the world, or I will nuke the world!" well fuck we can't let them even think they can get away with that. Might as well send everything we can now. 2) Is immoral. The goal should be minimizing harm to Ukraine, not maximizing damage to Russia even if they richly deserve it.
For #2, The argument could be made that by crippling Russia for generations, millions and millions of people will lead better lives.  Less destabilization, fewer wars, less need to spend money on defense in Europe, freer trade, etc.  Will that actually happen, or is Russia actually a stabilizing force in some areas that would now fall into anarchy?  I don't know.

(Note: I am not advocating for this position at all!  Just exploring that line of thinking)

Telecaster

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3304 on: April 29, 2023, 10:10:02 AM »
Saw this on Twitter, can't vouch for the credibility:

“Ukraine has received a signal from some NATO countries that they are ready to start training Ukrainian pilots on F-16 fighter jets,” Head of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine Dmytro Kuleba said.

https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1652336730933010434

TomTX

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3305 on: April 29, 2023, 10:26:02 AM »
For example, giving Ukraine 5 Gripens with 100 anti-AAA missiles is more effective for air capabilities than giving 10 planes with anti-air munitions.

Sorry, the swede in me caught that.  What is a Gripen in this context?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen

nereo

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3306 on: April 29, 2023, 10:28:14 AM »
Saw this on Twitter, can't vouch for the credibility:

“Ukraine has received a signal from some NATO countries that they are ready to start training Ukrainian pilots on F-16 fighter jets,” Head of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine Dmytro Kuleba said.

https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1652336730933010434

Genuinely curious - how long would it take to train an experienced military pilot on a new fighter aircraft like the F-16? Are we talking a couple months or years?

LennStar

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3307 on: April 29, 2023, 11:18:37 AM »
Saw this on Twitter, can't vouch for the credibility:

“Ukraine has received a signal from some NATO countries that they are ready to start training Ukrainian pilots on F-16 fighter jets,” Head of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine Dmytro Kuleba said.

https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1652336730933010434

Genuinely curious - how long would it take to train an experienced military pilot on a new fighter aircraft like the F-16? Are we talking a couple months or years?
If they are experienced fighter pilots months, but many of them. If they start right now, they might be able to deliver Christmas presents to Putin. I think I read 9 month normally for training from Sujoi to F-16.

lemanfan

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3308 on: April 29, 2023, 11:30:33 AM »
For example, giving Ukraine 5 Gripens with 100 anti-AAA missiles is more effective for air capabilities than giving 10 planes with anti-air munitions.

Sorry, the swede in me caught that.  What is a Gripen in this context?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen

Yes, yes, I understood later.  Read too quick.

With the risk of semi-doxing myself, I live about a mile from where they are made. If Russia decides to nuke the factory, I'll probably check out permanently from this forum (and from life).
« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 11:32:54 AM by lemanfan »

Travis

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3309 on: April 29, 2023, 11:32:46 AM »
Saw this on Twitter, can't vouch for the credibility:

“Ukraine has received a signal from some NATO countries that they are ready to start training Ukrainian pilots on F-16 fighter jets,” Head of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine Dmytro Kuleba said.

https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1652336730933010434

Genuinely curious - how long would it take to train an experienced military pilot on a new fighter aircraft like the F-16? Are we talking a couple months or years?

I can't find the quote right now, but somebody in the Air Force gave a timeline that was more than a couple months, but less than a year for an experienced pilot. There are too few Gripens in the world for them to be an alternative despite being a good aircraft for the purpose. Everyone seems to agree that F-16s would also be a good choice due to overall availability and ease of support; however, I don't think we'd want to give them airframes that are too old in which we'd have concerns over their reliability, and Lockheed's production line is full of orders for other nations. Austin said if we were to take aircraft out of storage it'd take a year to refurbish them. I can't speak for the nations that have offered their active duty F-16s though.

There's also the question of what these new planes would be used for. Russia's air defenses are still formidable and a campaign to destroy them with F-16s and HARMs would take months. Unless Ukraine can get extremely long range air to air missiles that are pretty new even to NATO, taking on Russian fighters isn't really in the cards unless those Russian planes are getting close to the front line. They'd be a good hedge against wearing out their MiG fleet dealing with the cruise missile threat and help them get started on what we all know will eventually be a western-built Ukrainian Air Force.

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3310 on: April 29, 2023, 05:46:30 PM »
Air power is not going to make a significant difference in this war. Short of the entire US Air Force being devoted to destroying Russia's air force and all of their various anti-aircraft defenses there's nothing we can give Ukraine that will make a meaningful difference. Both sides are effectively at a stalemate with Russia having the upper hand, but barely. Neither side is flying aircraft deep into enemy territory. They're staying low and close to the front as anything else risks getting shot down by the robust anti-aircraft systems on both sides.

Getting Ukranian pilots trained on a new aircraft, plus getting all the support for those aircraft in place will takes many months, maybe a year or more. Even so, 50 or 100 F-16s isn't going to turn the tide of the war.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3311 on: April 29, 2023, 08:37:58 PM »
Air power is not going to make a significant difference in this war. Short of the entire US Air Force being devoted to destroying Russia's air force and all of their various anti-aircraft defenses there's nothing we can give Ukraine that will make a meaningful difference. Both sides are effectively at a stalemate with Russia having the upper hand, but barely. Neither side is flying aircraft deep into enemy territory. They're staying low and close to the front as anything else risks getting shot down by the robust anti-aircraft systems on both sides.

Getting Ukranian pilots trained on a new aircraft, plus getting all the support for those aircraft in place will takes many months, maybe a year or more. Even so, 50 or 100 F-16s isn't going to turn the tide of the war.
There's one way it would:  if they use air power like the US.  Use the F-16s to fire HARMs to take out all of Russia's SAMs.  Then they can fly high and drop all sorts of precision guided munitions with impunity.

TomTX

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3312 on: April 30, 2023, 08:32:51 AM »
Air power is not going to make a significant difference in this war. Short of the entire US Air Force being devoted to destroying Russia's air force and all of their various anti-aircraft defenses there's nothing we can give Ukraine that will make a meaningful difference. Both sides are effectively at a stalemate with Russia having the upper hand, but barely. Neither side is flying aircraft deep into enemy territory. They're staying low and close to the front as anything else risks getting shot down by the robust anti-aircraft systems on both sides.

Getting Ukranian pilots trained on a new aircraft, plus getting all the support for those aircraft in place will takes many months, maybe a year or more. Even so, 50 or 100 F-16s isn't going to turn the tide of the war.
There's one way it would:  if they use air power like the US.  Use the F-16s to fire HARMs to take out all of Russia's SAMs.  Then they can fly high and drop all sorts of precision guided munitions with impunity.
In addition, longer range air-to-air munitions will force the Russians further back when air launching their various missiles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Air-to-surface_missiles_of_Russia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Air-to-air_missiles_of_Russia

Travis

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3313 on: April 30, 2023, 12:14:08 PM »
Air power is not going to make a significant difference in this war. Short of the entire US Air Force being devoted to destroying Russia's air force and all of their various anti-aircraft defenses there's nothing we can give Ukraine that will make a meaningful difference. Both sides are effectively at a stalemate with Russia having the upper hand, but barely. Neither side is flying aircraft deep into enemy territory. They're staying low and close to the front as anything else risks getting shot down by the robust anti-aircraft systems on both sides.

Getting Ukranian pilots trained on a new aircraft, plus getting all the support for those aircraft in place will takes many months, maybe a year or more. Even so, 50 or 100 F-16s isn't going to turn the tide of the war.
There's one way it would:  if they use air power like the US.  Use the F-16s to fire HARMs to take out all of Russia's SAMs.  Then they can fly high and drop all sorts of precision guided munitions with impunity.

Ukraine doesn't have our electronic warfare capabilities to jam SAMs nor our fleet of stealth aircraft. Going head to head against modern air defenses is very difficult even when you have the tools. Russia may have a couple thousand launchers so taking out all of them isn't happening any time soon. Pretty much only the US Air Force can pull off that kind of campaign.

simonsez

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3314 on: May 01, 2023, 10:44:23 AM »
I have a couple of thoughts about why the military supply, at least from the US, has been so slow to ramp up:
1) By gradually increasing it, there's no huge step change that Putin can claim push him over the edge and "made" him use nukes.
2) Cold, calculated realpolitik--this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to cripple Russia as a global power for generations, if not permanently.
Those are my leading contenders in that order, in addition to as michael in ABQ suggests beaucratic inertia and incompetence. 1) I can understand playing it safe, but if dictators can say "let me conquer the world, or I will nuke the world!" well fuck we can't let them even think they can get away with that. Might as well send everything we can now. 2) Is immoral. The goal should be minimizing harm to Ukraine, not maximizing damage to Russia even if they richly deserve it.
For #2, The argument could be made that by crippling Russia for generations, millions and millions of people will lead better lives.  Less destabilization, fewer wars, less need to spend money on defense in Europe, freer trade, etc.  Will that actually happen, or is Russia actually a stabilizing force in some areas that would now fall into anarchy?  I don't know.

(Note: I am not advocating for this position at all!  Just exploring that line of thinking)
Yes, it's unknowable and involves really yucky math/logic.  No matter the decisions made, someone will be suffering and a portion of the world will think it's wrong.  I feel bad for all the civilians and lower ranking military personnel who are pawns.  I also feel bad for the decisionmakers as there is not a good feeling that comes with a "win" that involves such wanton destruction and loss of life (made in order to prevent potentially much worse destruction and loss of life).

"Explain to me how it is more noble to kill 10,000 men in battle rather than a dozen at dinner." - Tywin Lannister after the Red Wedding and ignoring the fallout implications.

You hear stories about Japanese civilians allegedly talking about how the atomic bombs "saved" Japanese lives in terms of the longer game as they would've never given up otherwise.  E.g. Kill ~200k but prevent 1 million deaths that would/could have resulted in further battles and the naval blockade and other Pacific theater plans.

Hate to bring up the dreaded word "externalities" on this forum but it would seem that much of the arguing about the effects (when assessing this conflict in retrospect) deals with quite a bit of goalpost moving.  I.e. If you're just talking Ukraine or if Ukraine+Russia or if you destabilize other economic regions that were dependent on Russia in the past (one publication could include these numbers while another omits them and then who is right?).  Whose goalposts are the standard to measure by?  Now it's just politics to determine which externalities and blowback/aftermath will count.

Also, what's considered the best strategy today might not be years from now.  Referencing WW2 again, at the time in 1945 a Gallup poll showed that 85% of Americans were in favor of dropping atomic bombs.  More modern studies show the approval rating for the atomic actions in Japan to be barely above 50%.  Now, is this recall bias?  If we had a similar situation today involving nuclear weapons, would Americans become more hawkish and make the same deal that we did in 1945?  Not that civilians get to vote anyway but I think the Vietnam War was a wake up call to elected leaders that you can't just unilaterally make military decisions that are so unpopular.  Well you can, you're just going to piss off people and alter/facilitate/catalyze a lot of social/societal change that could be unintended.

I waffle about what the best course of action is.  A weak silver lining is that this and many other dreadful situations occurring around the globe are reminders of just how precious not only life, but peaceful life with freedom really is and I never want to take it for granted.  Just sad all around, I hope the path forward ultimately does involve the long-term mitigation of suffering when including all humans, not just the ones we're slightly more culturally/socially/economically aligned with at that point in time.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3315 on: May 01, 2023, 04:31:44 PM »
And look at the whinging over Ukrainian grain undercutting European supplies..
Nobody is whining about that. Europe can easily buy it's wheat somewhere else. It's about all those millions elsewhere that can't and are starving.
I mean this:
Poland, Hungary ban grain and food imports from Ukraine

pecunia

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3316 on: May 03, 2023, 09:24:15 AM »
So,.....I've been looking at stated losses of Russian soldiers.  This is updated daily by the Ukrainian government.  I know.  I know.  Some people don't believe those numbers.  That's OK.  Let's assume that there is some rough correctness to these numbers.

Today the Russian deaths in the "Special Military Operation" are a total of 191,940 people.  In the last 24 hours, the Russian deaths are stated as 520.  Now, to me, I grew up in a small town in the sparsely populated North.  These seem like big numbers to me.  The Ukrainian government has been stating that Russians have been losing about 500 men a day for months.  It's not a 1:1 thing either.  The ratio of Ukrainians killed to Russians killed has been given all sorts of numbers, but 5 Russians dead for each Ukrainian has been stated.

There is lots of babble about the upcoming Ukrainian offensive.  Each day while the babble goes on another 500 or so Russian soldiers gets killed.  It just seems to me that all these Russians being killed takes a big bite out of Russia's ability to fight back.  Is it better for Ukraine to wait a bit before charging over the dragon's teeth into the jaws of the dragon?

On the other hand, Russia is doing a real cattle drive for more soldiers.  Their horde has been diminished, but more meat is being assembled to charge the front.  They must realize that a large amount of their armaments have been destroyed and their offensive capabilities get weaker as time goes by.  The Russian offensive of the Winter did not go so well, but perhaps Russia will surprise the world with a Spring  Summer offensive of their own.

Whose side is time on?

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3317 on: May 03, 2023, 09:56:05 AM »
What I've seen stated is that the majority of the 20k deaths on the Russian side this year are Wagnerites, and the majority of those were prison convicts, i.e. probably the worst troops Russia has.  Up to this point, Russia has been disproportionately conscripting convicts and ethnic minorities from the far-flung, extra-poor areas of the country.  Not exactly their best and brightest.  They've also lost most of their best-trained troops, and have even deployed many units whose function was to train new recruits.  They've lost 2000 tanks and 10k total vehicles.  Also, several hundred thousand military-service-aged young men have fled the country.  That's just on the "staffing the military" side.

Then add in the economic side of things.  Russia already has a labor shortage, and is facing a demographic time bomb--the current 0-20 cohort is something like 30% smaller than the 20-40 cohort.  Their oil and gas exports have been cut dramatically (they've basically lost the entire European market), and what they *can* sell must be sold at a discount.

Ukraine has also taken tremendous casualties, but they have more tanks, trucks, and armored vehicles now than they did a year ago.  Ukraine has lost a huge portion of their population as refugees, but manpower for the army doesn't seem to be a bottleneck for them at this point.  They have much *better* equipment than they did a year ago (HIMARS, HARMS, Bradleys, Leopards, all the various SAMs, GLSDBs, western cold weather gear, body armor, etc), and the West has been helping train infantry, not just the tank crews.

From what I've heard, it sounds like Ukraine is fighting Russia to a stalemate while keeping a whole lot of troops in reserve, prepping for an offensive.  It appears that Russia has "culminated," i.e. they've passed the peak of their ability to conduct offensive operations, and so it's more a question of "how effectively can Ukraine conduct their own offensive?"

The longer Ukraine waits to begin an offensive in earnest, the more time Russia has to further entrench and supply their forces on the front line.  But at the same time, the better Ukraine's forces get, as more troops are trained and more equipment arrives.  At the same time, the longer the Russian troops sit in their trenches waiting for an attack that may never come, the lower the morale will get.  At the same time, the longer it takes, the more likely people in the west will lose interest and start looking at the next shiny thing.  But Russia's economy will continue to decline. But so will Ukraine's.  You can go back and forth all day.

In my opinion, if Ukraine can stage their equipment right and surprise Russia in whatever direction, I'd say they should attack ASAP.  Momentum is a real thing, and if they can manage their logistics better than they did during the earlier Kharkhiv offensive (where they sort of stalled out short of Svatove), they could cause a rout and roll up a whole bunch of the occupied areas.  But there's a reason why I'm sitting behind a desk doing engineering stuff and not a tactician :)

GuitarStv

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3318 on: May 03, 2023, 01:50:17 PM »
I'm wondering what Ukraine's end goal is at this point.  They are doing well defending their country . . . but Russia can/will continue this for an extended period.  The entire economy of Ukraine is destroyed at this point, as is an increasing amount of infrastructure.  Rebuilding efforts will take years and butt-tons of money.  And based on Russia's previous actions regarding ceasefires and negotiations it seems more likely that Russia would break such an agreement than keep it.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3319 on: May 03, 2023, 02:13:14 PM »
The best case scenario for Ukraine is to:
1) Defeat Russia and expel them from the country entirely
2) Join the EU and/or NATO to ensure future defense from Russian aggression.

Russia has shown their true colors at this point, and settling for anything else will mean the eventual end of Ukraine.  Period.

If Ukraine agrees to a ceasefire and cedes the occupied territories to Russia, Russia will just rearm and come back later.

If Ukraine surrenders entirely....well, we saw what the Russians did in Bucha, Mariupol, etc.  Mass executions, mass kidnapping, torture, rape, pillaging, the whole nine yards.

I *suppose* there's a third option--wait Russia out while continuing to rearm.  Hope Putin dies and his successor pulls out, and/or the Russian military apparatus continues to decay to nothing, at which point Ukraine can waltz in and retake their land, but at that point, the only people in that land would presumably be those aligned with Russia.  I mean, people are already making that argument about Crimea and Donbas. But that option risks the west getting bored and losing interest, and in the meantime, like you say, Ukraine's economy is in even worse condition than before, Russia keeps trying to hit power stations, Ukraine's people get more comfortable in their host countries, etc.  It's a different form of national destruction, but it's national destruction nonetheless.

So really, it's a Hobbs' choice.  Anything short of full expulsion of Russia to the pre-2014 borders means the end of Ukraine.

Well, you could argue that Ukraine could cede territory to the Russians and then join NATO with new national borders.

PeteD01

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3320 on: May 03, 2023, 02:40:09 PM »
...
And based on Russia's previous actions regarding ceasefires and negotiations it seems more likely that Russia would break such an agreement than keep it.

You are giving a good part of a possible answer.

It is in the interest of Ukraine to degrade Russian capabilities to the degree that Russia is unable to effectively break such agreements.

The effects of destroying Russian conventional capabilities to that degree combined with the fact that Soviet equipment stockpiles are being eroded (with Russia effectively incapable of rebuilding it) are are several-fold:

1. Obviously, getting Russia to the point that it is not capable of resuming hostilities at scale is in the interest of Ukraine and also everyone else´s.

2. Massive degradation of Russian conventional capabilities renders its nuclear capabilities more and more irrelevant, except for terrorist activities.

3. Ukraine´s chances of admission to NATO increase with every piece of Russian equipment destroyed because of the associated receding nuclear threat.

4. Russia´s inability to effectively threaten Ukraine conventionally for some time after the end of the war makes Ukraine´s accession to NATO membership attractive to NATO as Russia would need even more time, if NATO membership is granted, to recover sufficient capabilities to initiate hostilities with any chance of success (and that is probably not even in the cards, ever).

5. The more Russian capabilities are reduced the more time there is for Russia´s nuclear weaponry to deteriorate beyond being functional. Until the nuclear arsenal has deteriorated beyond repair, Russia does not present an offensive threat but retains deterrent capabilities and that would be fine with everyone as nobody wants to attack Russia.


So that is my take (in very general terms) in a nutshell and I believe this explains in part why Ukraine is pursuing attritional warfare at this time.
 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2023, 06:02:53 PM by PeteD01 »

Michael in ABQ

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3321 on: May 03, 2023, 02:52:36 PM »
I'm wondering what Ukraine's end goal is at this point.  They are doing well defending their country . . . but Russia can/will continue this for an extended period.  The entire economy of Ukraine is destroyed at this point, as is an increasing amount of infrastructure.  Rebuilding efforts will take years and butt-tons of money.  And based on Russia's previous actions regarding ceasefires and negotiations it seems more likely that Russia would break such an agreement than keep it.

I think it has to be restoration of their borders prior to the initial invasion in 2014. Anything short of that will leave Ukraine in the same position as Georgia and Moldova where Russia troops occupy a breakaway portion of the country leaving a frozen conflict that Russia can choose to reignite at any time. At a minimum, they have to recapture everything that Russia took in the latest offensive that started last year. Retaking Crimea and the Donbass may not be feasible but on the other hand Russia is only going to get weaker as time goes on while the US and Europe can supply Ukraine for years to come.

PeteD01

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3322 on: May 03, 2023, 03:10:37 PM »
...
I think it has to be restoration of their borders prior to the initial invasion in 2014. Anything short of that will leave Ukraine in the same position as Georgia and Moldova where Russia troops occupy a breakaway portion of the country leaving a frozen conflict that Russia can choose to reignite at any time. At a minimum, they have to recapture everything that Russia took in the latest offensive that started last year. Retaking Crimea and the Donbass may not be feasible but on the other hand Russia is only going to get weaker as time goes on while the US and Europe can supply Ukraine for years to come.

Yes, and driving Russia out of all occupied areas would make for Ukraine becoming a NATO member a much more attractive proposition for NATO.

I believe that NATO would have a hard time to admit a country with a frozen conflict within its borders - NATO is a defensive alliance and admitting a nation with legitimate claims to territories occupied by a belligerent adversary would be an unresolvable issue, unless the character of NATO changes in very undesirable ways.
 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2023, 03:18:31 PM by PeteD01 »

Radagast

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3323 on: May 03, 2023, 09:59:37 PM »
Whose side is time on?
Militarily, time has always favored Ukraine. In the absolute sense, they are getting stronger and Russia is getting weaker and that trend will continue for years. Ironically, it's in both sides propaganda interest to claim the opposite. Russia: "We're going to win eventually, so why even bother sending Ukraine anything? It will just make the cost higher for everyone." Ukraine: "If this drags on it favors Russia, so we need more ammo NOW before its too late!"

Societally and economically, while things will continue to get worse for Russia and are already very bad for Ukraine, its more of a draw.

pecunia

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3324 on: May 04, 2023, 09:02:54 AM »
Whose side is time on?
Militarily, time has always favored Ukraine. In the absolute sense, they are getting stronger and Russia is getting weaker and that trend will continue for years. Ironically, it's in both sides propaganda interest to claim the opposite. Russia: "We're going to win eventually, so why even bother sending Ukraine anything? It will just make the cost higher for everyone." Ukraine: "If this drags on it favors Russia, so we need more ammo NOW before its too late!"

Societally and economically, while things will continue to get worse for Russia and are already very bad for Ukraine, its more of a draw.

In a way, I'm not sure it's a draw.  The longer Russia squats on Ukraine's land, the more settled in things get for everybody.  It becomes the status quo.  People who fled get used to their new surroundings and may actually prefer them.  Russia begins to restart the enterprises in the invaded lands and offers steadu employment to the remaining people.  Russians move in for new opportunities in these lands.  The teaching of the young includes Russian propaganda.  People don't want war.  People just want to live their lives.  There are many of us in many lands that don't care a rat's ass about government and politics.  We just want to live our lives.  People tire of war.  It may be easier to accept the status quo of Russian rule rather to struggle against it.  This is particularly true if they develop the lands and create opportunities for the locals. 

Their occupation may not lead to enslavement.  They've been doing this invasion thing since Viking days.  It's worked pretty well for them judging by the size of their country.  Time, may, in fact be on Russia's side.

The world may be happy with Russia if they let the border lines be drawn like Korea, the former East Germany, Vietnam, etc.  They will have the 1/5 of land they took from Ukraine.  Russia can wait.  In a generation, they can go after the rest of Ukraine.  They do not think like the West.

If this drags on, it may indeed favor Russia.

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3325 on: May 04, 2023, 10:18:36 AM »
The world may be happy with Russia if they let the border lines be drawn like Korea, the former East Germany, Vietnam, etc.  They will have the 1/5 of land they took from Ukraine.  Russia can wait.  In a generation, they can go after the rest of Ukraine.  They do not think like the West.

The demographic problem isn't going away, and is getting worse even if incrementally. Will Russia have enough men in a generation's time?

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3326 on: May 04, 2023, 12:00:48 PM »
The world may be happy with Russia if they let the border lines be drawn like Korea, the former East Germany, Vietnam, etc.  They will have the 1/5 of land they took from Ukraine.  Russia can wait.  In a generation, they can go after the rest of Ukraine.  They do not think like the West.

The demographic problem isn't going away, and is getting worse even if incrementally. Will Russia have enough men in a generation's time?

The demographic problem is enormous and will echo through Russia for decades. In the more medium term, sanctions are starting to bite and are notoriously sticky (they don’t go away). They’ve pissed off their biggest customers (Europe) of their largest export (gas and oil) and now they are divesting away at a remarkable pace. I personally wouldn’t bet global consumption of fossil fuels will be as high in the 2030s as it is now, even if Russia can get out from under its $60/barrel cap sooner. Russia spent a quarter century attracting western business, and in less than a year almost all of that is gone, leaving it with a far less diversified economy.

In short, it’s hard to overstate just how extreme the economic headwinds will be for Russia in the next couple decades.

pecunia

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3327 on: May 04, 2023, 12:40:58 PM »
The world may be happy with Russia if they let the border lines be drawn like Korea, the former East Germany, Vietnam, etc.  They will have the 1/5 of land they took from Ukraine.  Russia can wait.  In a generation, they can go after the rest of Ukraine.  They do not think like the West.

The demographic problem isn't going away, and is getting worse even if incrementally. Will Russia have enough men in a generation's time?

The demographic problem is enormous and will echo through Russia for decades. In the more medium term, sanctions are starting to bite and are notoriously sticky (they don’t go away). They’ve pissed off their biggest customers (Europe) of their largest export (gas and oil) and now they are divesting away at a remarkable pace. I personally wouldn’t bet global consumption of fossil fuels will be as high in the 2030s as it is now, even if Russia can get out from under its $60/barrel cap sooner. Russia spent a quarter century attracting western business, and in less than a year almost all of that is gone, leaving it with a far less diversified economy.

In short, it’s hard to overstate just how extreme the economic headwinds will be for Russia in the next couple decades.

I've pondered the causes of this strange war.  The reasons stated by Russia seem ridiculous.  However, Russia statements often don't match reality so its not surprising.  One commentator stated that one of the reasons Russia started this war was their demographic problem.  They don't really need the agriculture, gas fields, industrial capacity or almost any resource Ukraine had to offer.  However, Ukraine had about 40 million people.  These are hard working clever educated people.  A great many of these people speak Russian or could quickly learn due to language similarities.  The folks are generally of the same religion and share much commonality with Russian culture.  There is a thousand years of shared history.  People of Ukrainian origin can assimilate more easily into Russian culture. 

So - Putin saw the demographic problem and here were all these people "free" for the taking.  The extra land was just frosting on the cake.  The kids are being shipped to Russia and most are learning to fit in well.  They will grow up as low paid loyal Russian workers much as Russian serfs have done for a thousand years.  Lucky for him lack of morality has never been a problem.

It was preferred over the idea of invading Angola.

nereo

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3328 on: May 04, 2023, 01:07:16 PM »
The world may be happy with Russia if they let the border lines be drawn like Korea, the former East Germany, Vietnam, etc.  They will have the 1/5 of land they took from Ukraine.  Russia can wait.  In a generation, they can go after the rest of Ukraine.  They do not think like the West.

The demographic problem isn't going away, and is getting worse even if incrementally. Will Russia have enough men in a generation's time?

The demographic problem is enormous and will echo through Russia for decades. In the more medium term, sanctions are starting to bite and are notoriously sticky (they don’t go away). They’ve pissed off their biggest customers (Europe) of their largest export (gas and oil) and now they are divesting away at a remarkable pace. I personally wouldn’t bet global consumption of fossil fuels will be as high in the 2030s as it is now, even if Russia can get out from under its $60/barrel cap sooner. Russia spent a quarter century attracting western business, and in less than a year almost all of that is gone, leaving it with a far less diversified economy.

In short, it’s hard to overstate just how extreme the economic headwinds will be for Russia in the next couple decades.

I've pondered the causes of this strange war.  The reasons stated by Russia seem ridiculous.  However, Russia statements often don't match reality so its not surprising.  One commentator stated that one of the reasons Russia started this war was their demographic problem.  They don't really need the agriculture, gas fields, industrial capacity or almost any resource Ukraine had to offer.  However, Ukraine had about 40 million people.  These are hard working clever educated people.  A great many of these people speak Russian or could quickly learn due to language similarities.  The folks are generally of the same religion and share much commonality with Russian culture.  There is a thousand years of shared history.  People of Ukrainian origin can assimilate more easily into Russian culture. 

So - Putin saw the demographic problem and here were all these people "free" for the taking.  The extra land was just frosting on the cake.  The kids are being shipped to Russia and most are learning to fit in well.  They will grow up as low paid loyal Russian workers much as Russian serfs have done for a thousand years.  Lucky for him lack of morality has never been a problem.

It was preferred over the idea of invading Angola.

I’m sure this kind of calculation made sense following the bloodless annexation of Crimea in 2014. If the entirety of Ukraine could have been absorbed within a few weeks of light to moderate fighting (as many predicted at the time) then the demographic rewards could have been huge. In hindsight it didn’t go that way and now both sides are deep into a bloody slugfest with no painless way out.

I wonder if Putin needs a lesson in the “sunk cost fallacy”.

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3329 on: May 04, 2023, 01:10:29 PM »
There are plenty of Africans and South/Central Americans who would love to move somewhere with jobs and safety from gangs.

Then again, I guess they're not white/Eastern Orthodox so Russia presumably wouldn't have wanted them.

Even if getting Ukraine had been easy/bloodless, Ukraine has the same set of demographic problems as Russia, basically. So I still don't get it.

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3330 on: May 04, 2023, 01:44:18 PM »
The Russian Federation is an empire run by a kleptocratic oligarchy the members of which are continually maneuvering to gain more influence, power and money, behavior that is actively encouraged by the dictator.

For a political entity of this type, Ukraine is simply a potential source of more loot.
At the end of the day, the motivation for trying to subdue Ukraine is not much different than the reasons for which drug cartels engage in violence against rivals.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2023, 01:53:24 PM by PeteD01 »

pecunia

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3331 on: May 04, 2023, 01:48:08 PM »
The Russian Federation is an empire run by a kleptocratic oligarchy the members of which are continually maneuvering to gain more influence, power and money, behavior that is actively encouraged by the dictator.

For a political entity of this type, Ukraine is simply a potential source of more loot.
At the end of the day, the motivation for trying to subdue Ukraine is not much different than the resons drug cartels engage in violence against rivals.

Pirates, yeh, them I can understand,......Arrrrh  Matey!

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3332 on: May 04, 2023, 02:19:44 PM »
There are plenty of Africans and South/Central Americans who would love to move somewhere with jobs and safety from gangs.

Then again, I guess they're not white/Eastern Orthodox so Russia presumably wouldn't have wanted them
I can't say if things have changed much in the last 20 years with regards to racism in Russia, but when I lived there, it was *not* a good place to live if your skin was dark.  Getting beat up in the street by a few hooligans with nothing else to do was a very real thing.

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3333 on: May 04, 2023, 04:47:31 PM »
Whose side is time on?
Militarily, time has always favored Ukraine. In the absolute sense, they are getting stronger and Russia is getting weaker and that trend will continue for years. Ironically, it's in both sides propaganda interest to claim the opposite. Russia: "We're going to win eventually, so why even bother sending Ukraine anything? It will just make the cost higher for everyone." Ukraine: "If this drags on it favors Russia, so we need more ammo NOW before its too late!"

Societally and economically, while things will continue to get worse for Russia and are already very bad for Ukraine, its more of a draw.

In a way, I'm not sure it's a draw.  The longer Russia squats on Ukraine's land, the more settled in things get for everybody.  It becomes the status quo.  People who fled get used to their new surroundings and may actually prefer them.  Russia begins to restart the enterprises in the invaded lands and offers steadu employment to the remaining people.  Russians move in for new opportunities in these lands.  The teaching of the young includes Russian propaganda.  People don't want war.  People just want to live their lives.  There are many of us in many lands that don't care a rat's ass about government and politics.  We just want to live our lives.  People tire of war.  It may be easier to accept the status quo of Russian rule rather to struggle against it.  This is particularly true if they develop the lands and create opportunities for the locals. 

Their occupation may not lead to enslavement.  They've been doing this invasion thing since Viking days.  It's worked pretty well for them judging by the size of their country.  Time, may, in fact be on Russia's side.

The world may be happy with Russia if they let the border lines be drawn like Korea, the former East Germany, Vietnam, etc.  They will have the 1/5 of land they took from Ukraine.  Russia can wait.  In a generation, they can go after the rest of Ukraine.  They do not think like the West.

If this drags on, it may indeed favor Russia.

So far, areas of Ukraine occupied by Russia have very much led to enslavement, torture, murder, and mass kidnapping of Ukrainian children.  (See Bucha or Kherson).  I don't think Ukrainians will tire of this existential fight for their homes, their freedom, and their lives.  Currently in areas occupied by the Russians such as Crimea and Melitopol there is a robust guerrilla campaign being waged by Ukrainians, they are not interested in accepting the status quo, which is the complete erasure of everything Ukrainian.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2023, 04:53:58 PM by chops »

chops

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3334 on: May 04, 2023, 05:07:53 PM »
The world may be happy with Russia if they let the border lines be drawn like Korea, the former East Germany, Vietnam, etc.  They will have the 1/5 of land they took from Ukraine.  Russia can wait.  In a generation, they can go after the rest of Ukraine.  They do not think like the West.

The demographic problem isn't going away, and is getting worse even if incrementally. Will Russia have enough men in a generation's time?

The demographic problem is enormous and will echo through Russia for decades. In the more medium term, sanctions are starting to bite and are notoriously sticky (they don’t go away). They’ve pissed off their biggest customers (Europe) of their largest export (gas and oil) and now they are divesting away at a remarkable pace. I personally wouldn’t bet global consumption of fossil fuels will be as high in the 2030s as it is now, even if Russia can get out from under its $60/barrel cap sooner. Russia spent a quarter century attracting western business, and in less than a year almost all of that is gone, leaving it with a far less diversified economy.

In short, it’s hard to overstate just how extreme the economic headwinds will be for Russia in the next couple decades.

I've pondered the causes of this strange war.  The reasons stated by Russia seem ridiculous.  However, Russia statements often don't match reality so its not surprising.  One commentator stated that one of the reasons Russia started this war was their demographic problem.  They don't really need the agriculture, gas fields, industrial capacity or almost any resource Ukraine had to offer.  However, Ukraine had about 40 million people.  These are hard working clever educated people.  A great many of these people speak Russian or could quickly learn due to language similarities.  The folks are generally of the same religion and share much commonality with Russian culture.  There is a thousand years of shared history.  People of Ukrainian origin can assimilate more easily into Russian culture. 

So - Putin saw the demographic problem and here were all these people "free" for the taking.  The extra land was just frosting on the cake.  The kids are being shipped to Russia and most are learning to fit in well.  They will grow up as low paid loyal Russian workers much as Russian serfs have done for a thousand years.  Lucky for him lack of morality has never been a problem.

It was preferred over the idea of invading Angola.

I truly believe that Putin believes himself to be a great Tsar like Peter the Great.  His military interventions so far have been relatively small and against far weaker opponents (2nd Chechen war, war with Georgia, saving Assad from Syrian rebels), or lucky (taking Crimea without a fight), and so he thinks he's a military genius.  His well paid advisors and generals reinforce this and tell him that the Russian Military he's spent hundreds of billions on is very powerful, and Ukraine's is so weak.  He's getting old and wants to make a big mark in history before he goes.  Then Angela Merkel steps down from Germany after 18 years, the US is embroiled with internal politics and a botched pullout from Afghanistan, and he decides the time to go is never going to get better than this.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2023, 05:10:13 PM by chops »

LennStar

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3335 on: May 04, 2023, 11:29:55 PM »
Yes, he wants to stand as Putin the Great in the middle of Alexander and Catarina. Reuniting Russia by taking over the scam state(s) would make it so, he thinks.

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3336 on: May 05, 2023, 06:34:43 AM »
Wagner threatening to leave Bakhmut. It seems either Russia will have to put up the ammunition to keep holding Bakhmut or give it up.

I think this may be the beginning of Russia's retreat of their territory north of Luhansk and will instead try to fortify their 2014 borders of Donetsk. If Wagner doesn't have ammunition to keep Bakhmut, then certainly the Russian military can't hold it either.

Mr FrugalNL

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3337 on: May 05, 2023, 07:54:29 AM »
I think it's more likely that the Russian ministry of defence has been withholding ammunition from Wagner because of factional infighting. There is little love lost between Wagner leader Prigozhin and defence minister Shoigu, to name but two of the many strongmen. The Russian ministry of defence and Wagner have repeatedly clashed over who will get all the glory (and therefore political influence) for conquering Bakhmut. They've constantly been trying to one-up eachother. Shoigu supposedly has a mercenary company of his own by the way: Patriot, which is of course a competitor of Wagner's. Think of Russia less as a modern state like the USA and more as a feudal kingdom. The czar's continued rule depends on his playing the various dukes and counts off against each other so none of them gets powerful enough to make a bid for the throne. Putin could improve Russia's chances in the war by consolidating military power in one commander but will likely do no such thing because it would threaten his rule and his life.

I wouldn't be so sure this bodes a Russian collapse in the north. A Wagner collapse maybe, but I'll believe that too when I see it. Putin probably can't let Wagner get too weak because then who will be the countervailing power against the ministry of defence? There are other candidates, sure, but Prigozhin is a known quantity that Putin has seen fit to keep around so far.

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3338 on: May 05, 2023, 07:57:36 AM »
If Wagner pulls out of Bakhmut, that leaves Russia with a weak point at that location, where Ukraine has an elevated concentration.  That's dangerous for Russia.

Mr FrugalNL

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3339 on: May 05, 2023, 08:38:24 AM »
True! Here's hoping Wagner does pull out and Ukraine can exploit the resulting weak point.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3340 on: May 05, 2023, 09:10:41 AM »
True! Here's hoping Wagner does pull out and Ukraine can exploit the resulting weak point.
Either that, or Russia has to pull units from other areas, leaving those areas weakened against an impending Ukrainian offensive.

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3341 on: May 05, 2023, 11:28:44 AM »
Whose side is time on?
Militarily, time has always favored Ukraine. In the absolute sense, they are getting stronger and Russia is getting weaker and that trend will continue for years. Ironically, it's in both sides propaganda interest to claim the opposite. Russia: "We're going to win eventually, so why even bother sending Ukraine anything? It will just make the cost higher for everyone." Ukraine: "If this drags on it favors Russia, so we need more ammo NOW before its too late!"

Societally and economically, while things will continue to get worse for Russia and are already very bad for Ukraine, its more of a draw.

In a way, I'm not sure it's a draw.  The longer Russia squats on Ukraine's land, the more settled in things get for everybody.  It becomes the status quo.  People who fled get used to their new surroundings and may actually prefer them.  Russia begins to restart the enterprises in the invaded lands and offers steadu employment to the remaining people.  Russians move in for new opportunities in these lands.  The teaching of the young includes Russian propaganda.  People don't want war.  People just want to live their lives.  There are many of us in many lands that don't care a rat's ass about government and politics.  We just want to live our lives.  People tire of war.  It may be easier to accept the status quo of Russian rule rather to struggle against it.  This is particularly true if they develop the lands and create opportunities for the locals. 

Their occupation may not lead to enslavement.  They've been doing this invasion thing since Viking days.  It's worked pretty well for them judging by the size of their country.  Time, may, in fact be on Russia's side.

The world may be happy with Russia if they let the border lines be drawn like Korea, the former East Germany, Vietnam, etc.  They will have the 1/5 of land they took from Ukraine.  Russia can wait.  In a generation, they can go after the rest of Ukraine.  They do not think like the West.

If this drags on, it may indeed favor Russia.
True, things are much worse for Ukraine right now. But they aren't really getting worse, and they've improved since March 2022. The trend is level-ish if you consider that the situation in the occupied territories continues to get worse. Russia is obviously in a better position on the inside, but their situation is rapidly worsening. Their society is weaker, more brittle, and less transparent. While it's pretty obvious how bad things are for Ukraine, even most Russians likely do not have a good understanding of what things are like in their own country. We don't even have a guess how it will play out inside Russia, but there is a good chance that their social and economic system is on path to shatter even before a Ukrainian military victory. For both military and social/economic/political systems the trend is what matters, and I think that both trends favor Ukraine.

chops

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3342 on: May 05, 2023, 03:13:46 PM »
I think it's more likely that the Russian ministry of defence has been withholding ammunition from Wagner because of factional infighting. There is little love lost between Wagner leader Prigozhin and defence minister Shoigu, to name but two of the many strongmen. The Russian ministry of defence and Wagner have repeatedly clashed over who will get all the glory (and therefore political influence) for conquering Bakhmut. They've constantly been trying to one-up eachother. Shoigu supposedly has a mercenary company of his own by the way: Patriot, which is of course a competitor of Wagner's. Think of Russia less as a modern state like the USA and more as a feudal kingdom. The czar's continued rule depends on his playing the various dukes and counts off against each other so none of them gets powerful enough to make a bid for the throne. Putin could improve Russia's chances in the war by consolidating military power in one commander but will likely do no such thing because it would threaten his rule and his life.

I wouldn't be so sure this bodes a Russian collapse in the north. A Wagner collapse maybe, but I'll believe that too when I see it. Putin probably can't let Wagner get too weak because then who will be the countervailing power against the ministry of defence? There are other candidates, sure, but Prigozhin is a known quantity that Putin has seen fit to keep around so far.

Agree with the depiction of Russia as a feudal state, with Putin as king and a revolving cast of lower royalty that are trying to improve their positions, Game of Thrones style. 

Russian MOD leadership (Gerisimov & Shoigu) and Wagner (Prigozhin) are blood enemies.  I actually think they hate each other far more than either hates the Ukrainians.  The only reason it has not erupted into full civil war yet is because the king likes it this way, playing them off against each other.  When Putin dies, I think it is very likely that a bloody civil war will result, with multiple sides (Russian MOD, Wagner, FSB, Kadyrov Chechens, etc).  That will result in a definitive end of Russia's war on Ukraine.

As far as Wagner really retreating from Bakhmut - I don't think Prigozhin is going to telegraph an actual retreat ahead of time.  This is just his latest attempt at trying to embarrass the MOD and maybe get them to give him more ammo. 

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3343 on: May 05, 2023, 08:08:42 PM »

As far as Wagner really retreating from Bakhmut - I don't think Prigozhin is going to telegraph an actual retreat ahead of time.  This is just his latest attempt at trying to embarrass the MOD and maybe get them to give him more ammo.

He also said he wouldn't do it until the day after the parade next week which gives them time to compromise or he's using this as cover for something else. If he actually packed up his forces - where would they go? Home? Or just a more quiet sector of the front? If Wagner were to withdraw from the war, then Prighozin stops being a celebrity and fades into the background. Bakhmut is 95% in Russian hands and he's been complaining about ammo for months. There has to be something more to this that we're not seeing yet.

Mr FrugalNL

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3344 on: May 06, 2023, 12:19:24 AM »
Prigozhin's threat of withdrawal is looking more and more like empty words...

Ukraine says no sign of Russia’s Wagner force Bakhmut withdrawal
Ukraine military officials say Wagner fighters are being sent to Bakhmut to reinforce their positions, not withdraw.
The Ukrainian military has brushed aside claims by the head of Russia’s Wagner mercenary force that he will withdraw his fighters from the battle for the Ukrainian city of Bakhmut, saying the mercenaries were holding firm and receiving reinforcements.

Ukraine’s military said on Friday that Wagner fighters were reinforcing positions in Bakhmut with the likely intention to try and seize the destroyed city before Russia marks the Soviet Union’s victory in World War II on May 9.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/5/6/ukraine-says-no-sign-of-russias-wagner-force-bakhmut-withdrawal

pecunia

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3345 on: May 06, 2023, 09:45:33 AM »
Prigozhin's threat of withdrawal is looking more and more like empty words...

Ukraine says no sign of Russia’s Wagner force Bakhmut withdrawal
Ukraine military officials say Wagner fighters are being sent to Bakhmut to reinforce their positions, not withdraw.
The Ukrainian military has brushed aside claims by the head of Russia’s Wagner mercenary force that he will withdraw his fighters from the battle for the Ukrainian city of Bakhmut, saying the mercenaries were holding firm and receiving reinforcements.

Ukraine’s military said on Friday that Wagner fighters were reinforcing positions in Bakhmut with the likely intention to try and seize the destroyed city before Russia marks the Soviet Union’s victory in World War II on May 9.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/5/6/ukraine-says-no-sign-of-russias-wagner-force-bakhmut-withdrawal

Russians are an odd lot.  When they say black then it's white.  When they it's up then look down.

dividendman

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3346 on: May 06, 2023, 01:28:11 PM »
Russians are an odd lot.  When they say black then it's white.  When they it's up then look down.

"All war is based on deception" - Sun Tzu

Though I suppose if you always do the exact opposite of what you say that's not really deceptive...

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3347 on: May 06, 2023, 02:58:58 PM »
Russians are an odd lot.  When they say black then it's white.  When they it's up then look down.

"All war is based on deception" - Sun Tzu

Though I suppose if you always do the exact opposite of what you say that's not really deceptive...




You'd think they would use something high-tech, like a Magic 8 Ball, to help make their lies a bit more random. 

LennStar

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3348 on: May 07, 2023, 03:54:53 AM »
But then they wouldn't know themselves what they would be doing, right?

Anyway, Wagner has announced not immediate retreat but Progishin said they will retreat on the 10th, while blaming the ministry for the high Wagner losses since they have been cut of from ammunition supplies and they now need to lick their wounds.

Now, that is very intersting, isn't it? That has increase the fire on the ministry from the Russian war bloggers who also fear that the front will not hold with normal Russian troops.
Taking this into account it looks like this is a genius move by Prigoshin. Getting his troops out at or before the Ukrainian attack, while being able to blame the collapse of the front on his internal arch enemy Shoigu, hist can put himself up as the backstabbed hero. 

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3349 on: May 07, 2023, 10:26:17 AM »
But then they wouldn't know themselves what they would be doing, right?

Anyway, Wagner has announced not immediate retreat but Progishin said they will retreat on the 10th, while blaming the ministry for the high Wagner losses since they have been cut of from ammunition supplies and they now need to lick their wounds.

Now, that is very intersting, isn't it? That has increase the fire on the ministry from the Russian war bloggers who also fear that the front will not hold with normal Russian troops.
Taking this into account it looks like this is a genius move by Prigoshin. Getting his troops out at or before the Ukrainian attack, while being able to blame the collapse of the front on his internal arch enemy Shoigu, hist can put himself up as the backstabbed hero.

And in today's news they're saying the MoD is promising the shells and Wagner will stay put. I had a feeling it was all a show.