Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[BudgetSlasher]

Do you all live in single family houses?

I've always live in apartments or condos, and I have no idea where I would be able to reliably plug vs. the simplicity of spending a few minutes at a gas station.

I think when they can solve that problem, when super fast charging stations are off the interstates and on several street corners, maybe they won't even need the tax credits.

Earlier this week, I began working to get local developers to plan and install charging in new apartment developments. Hopefully other people will do the same in future. Long process though.

  Who pays for the electricity used for charging in the apartment parking lot ?    It's been a long time since i lived in an apartment, and i never lived in one where the electric power bill was not assigned to the specific renter and/or unit that used it.  One place i was at , the rent included cable tv, and garbage dumpsters- but the garbage service was likely mandated by the town.

  Would the builder wire up chargers seperately thru each apartment unit's dedicated electric line, so each unit gets one or two parking spaces that are billed directly from their unit's meter ?    Would the charger work on a pass code, so neighbors wouldn't "steal" your electricity ?   Or would the charging costs be borne like the cable tv example above, where the building owner just pays a variable amount each month depending on kilowatt use , but all residents pay a higher rent to cover this, regardless of whether they even own an EV or use the system  ? 

  { I imagine the cable tv costs was just one fixed price every month for the building owner, as there were no varying levels of service or # of channels available - each unit got the same "TV package", and if a renter never watched tv there was no rent discount }

Probably the easiest way would be to install a small (for now) number of 240v chargers that are associated with one of the charging networks like Chargepoint and set the prices to cover the electrical costs. Then the users activate the charger using their account and the network handles the billing.

[gaja]

Do you all live in single family houses?

I've always live in apartments or condos, and I have no idea where I would be able to reliably plug vs. the simplicity of spending a few minutes at a gas station.

I think when they can solve that problem, when super fast charging stations are off the interstates and on several street corners, maybe they won't even need the tax credits.

Earlier this week, I began working to get local developers to plan and install charging in new apartment developments. Hopefully other people will do the same in future. Long process though.

  Who pays for the electricity used for charging in the apartment parking lot ?    It's been a long time since i lived in an apartment, and i never lived in one where the electric power bill was not assigned to the specific renter and/or unit that used it.  One place i was at , the rent included cable tv, and garbage dumpsters- but the garbage service was likely mandated by the town.

  Would the builder wire up chargers seperately thru each apartment unit's dedicated electric line, so each unit gets one or two parking spaces that are billed directly from their unit's meter ?    Would the charger work on a pass code, so neighbors wouldn't "steal" your electricity ?   Or would the charging costs be borne like the cable tv example above, where the building owner just pays a variable amount each month depending on kilowatt use , but all residents pay a higher rent to cover this, regardless of whether they even own an EV or use the system  ? 

  { I imagine the cable tv costs was just one fixed price every month for the building owner, as there were no varying levels of service or # of channels available - each unit got the same "TV package", and if a renter never watched tv there was no rent discount }

Probably the easiest way would be to install a small (for now) number of 240v chargers that are associated with one of the charging networks like Chargepoint and set the prices to cover the electrical costs. Then the users activate the charger using their account and the network handles the billing.

The electricity use is much lower than most people think. If you drive 10 000 km/year, it will take about 2000 kWh. So the easiest way by far (and cheapest for all involved, since you don't need the fanciest equipment) is to let all EV owners pay ~$25/month for free access to the chargers. It usually averages out to be more than enough to cover the costs.

[Just Joe]

My car is in the shop this weekend due to a seal leak from the transmission to the axles.  I guess i wouldn't have had this problem with an electric car.

You could still have the problem. There are still axles, and there is still some sort of gearbox present so there is still some sort of grease seal.

It is an easy repair with a lift. I've done this repair in my driveway with a jack. Loosen axle nut, lift car, remove wheel, disconnect suspension, remove axle, replace seal, etc. The DIY version take a couple of hours. A shop is much more efficient.

Seal is $5-10.

Even easier when it is a warranty repair.  It's a lot cleaner too.  You always have the right tools.  You don't need to run for parts.  It takes a lot less longer.  You don't even need to watch You Tube videos three plus times to know how to do it.  No trouble lights to see the things.  It's back.  I'm happy.

It does sound like the gearbox is much simplified with electric cars.

https://www.kia.com/dm/discover-kia/ask/do-electric-cars-have-transmissions.html

I guess you would still need bearing seals.

Warranties imply car payments to me. ;) I hate payments with a passion.

My cars are aged. ~20 years old x3 (commuter, teen#1, teen#2) and one 7 year old vehicle for trips.

[Paper Chaser]

Do you all live in single family houses?

I've always live in apartments or condos, and I have no idea where I would be able to reliably plug vs. the simplicity of spending a few minutes at a gas station.

I think when they can solve that problem, when super fast charging stations are off the interstates and on several street corners, maybe they won't even need the tax credits.

Earlier this week, I began working to get local developers to plan and install charging in new apartment developments. Hopefully other people will do the same in future. Long process though.

  Who pays for the electricity used for charging in the apartment parking lot ?    It's been a long time since i lived in an apartment, and i never lived in one where the electric power bill was not assigned to the specific renter and/or unit that used it.  One place i was at , the rent included cable tv, and garbage dumpsters- but the garbage service was likely mandated by the town.

  Would the builder wire up chargers seperately thru each apartment unit's dedicated electric line, so each unit gets one or two parking spaces that are billed directly from their unit's meter ?    Would the charger work on a pass code, so neighbors wouldn't "steal" your electricity ?   Or would the charging costs be borne like the cable tv example above, where the building owner just pays a variable amount each month depending on kilowatt use , but all residents pay a higher rent to cover this, regardless of whether they even own an EV or use the system  ? 

  { I imagine the cable tv costs was just one fixed price every month for the building owner, as there were no varying levels of service or # of channels available - each unit got the same "TV package", and if a renter never watched tv there was no rent discount }

Probably the easiest way would be to install a small (for now) number of 240v chargers that are associated with one of the charging networks like Chargepoint and set the prices to cover the electrical costs. Then the users activate the charger using their account and the network handles the billing.

The electricity use is much lower than most people think. If you drive 10 000 km/year, it will take about 2000 kWh. So the easiest way by far (and cheapest for all involved, since you don't need the fanciest equipment) is to let all EV owners pay ~$25/month for free access to the chargers. It usually averages out to be more than enough to cover the costs.

I'm guessing the cost would end up being more than just $25/mo. Especially at first when acceptance and usage remain low.

The average American drives around 13000 miles (say 21k km) per year. The EVs that are likely to be purchased moving forward will probably be large, heavy trucks and CUVS that aren't as likely to get 4-5 miles per kwh as what's currently out there. I'd guess an average CUV EV, driven by an average, inattentive American driver, in climates with plenty of HVAC use would get 3 miles per kwh. That might be optimistic. So the hypothetical average EV would use something like 4333 kwh of electricity per year. The average electrical cost in the US is around $0.13/kwh but that varies a lot. So for home charging prices it would be $563 annually. That's $46/month at pretty cheap home electricity rates just for the electricity. That doesn't pay for the charger, the operating/admin costs, or profit for the charging network if applicable.

Public chargers like Tesla's Supercharger network can price in those extras, but they tend to be $0.25-0.30/kwh in the US. And that puts the total cost to charge an EV at public chargers at $1083 ($90/mo).

[ender]

Not to mention if more states keep adding higher registration for EVs, that eats into some of the gas savings too.

[pecunia]

Not to mention if more states keep adding higher registration for EVs, that eats into some of the gas savings too.

Are electrical cars generally of lighter weight?  If they are, this would imply less road wear.  I'll bet bike paths last longer than roads.

[ender]

Not to mention if more states keep adding higher registration for EVs, that eats into some of the gas savings too.

Are electrical cars generally of lighter weight?  If they are, this would imply less road wear.  I'll bet bike paths last longer than roads.

Cars already don't wear roads remotely the same as industrial trucks anyways. It's a stupidly exponential relationship between weight and damage.

Basically all the optimization for car weights don't make any appreciable difference if semis drive on the road somewhat often.

Weather is also a big factor on road lifespan in a lot of states even ignoring driving.

[Chris22]

Not to mention if more states keep adding higher registration for EVs, that eats into some of the gas savings too.

Are electrical cars generally of lighter weight?  If they are, this would imply less road wear.  I'll bet bike paths last longer than roads.

Cars already don't wear roads remotely the same as industrial trucks anyways. It's a stupidly exponential relationship between weight and damage.

Basically all the optimization for car weights don't make any appreciable difference if semis drive on the road somewhat often.

Weather is also a big factor on road lifespan in a lot of states even ignoring driving.

All of this. Plus you mention weather; a related factor is plows. Plows absolutely destroy roads.

Interestingly for the second time in a month last night I forgot to plug in my car. I was distracted by my dog since I had brought her with me and I was getting her out of the car. The first time I think I was distracted by a pizza I had picked up. Not a big deal for me, and easily solvable with some logic if the car texted me “you haven’t plugged in, did you forget?” But I was surprised, since I religiously have plugged in my phone nightly for 20+ years.

[Just Joe]

Not to mention if more states keep adding higher registration for EVs, that eats into some of the gas savings too.

Are electrical cars generally of lighter weight?  If they are, this would imply less road wear.  I'll bet bike paths last longer than roads.

A Nissan Leaf Plus is something like 3700 lbs. A Nissan Versa is 2600 lbs more or less. However that pales in comparison to pickup trucks and commercial traffic.

[GuitarStv]

Not to mention if more states keep adding higher registration for EVs, that eats into some of the gas savings too.

Are electrical cars generally of lighter weight?  If they are, this would imply less road wear.  I'll bet bike paths last longer than roads.

Cars already don't wear roads remotely the same as industrial trucks anyways. It's a stupidly exponential relationship between weight and damage.

Basically all the optimization for car weights don't make any appreciable difference if semis drive on the road somewhat often.

Weather is also a big factor on road lifespan in a lot of states even ignoring driving.

All of this. Plus you mention weather; a related factor is plows. Plows absolutely destroy roads.

The roads in Canada noticeably deteriorate all winter as the plows gouge larger and larger holes in them, then we spend the whole spring and summer scrambling to fix the damage.  It's a brutal cycle.

But it's not just the plows.  Freeze/thaw cycles cause a lot of buckling as water seeps into cracks and then expands while frozen - widening and cracking things more.

[BDWW]

Don't forget the salt!  I don't understand how people in some areas still find it acceptable to dump massive amounts of salt on the road. Kills the road, kills cars, messes up the soil and hurts water sources.

[GuitarStv]

Don't forget the salt!  I don't understand how people in some areas still find it acceptable to dump massive amounts of salt on the road. Kills the road, kills cars, messes up the soil and hurts water sources.

Salt is pretty horrific for the environment, cars, and roads.  Most importantly though, it wreaks hell on my bike.  Here in Toronto many of the local rivers and streams have been recorded as having higher salt concentrations than sea water after snowfall in the winter because of runoff.

Salt will melt the snow and ice faster than plows, and it's cheaper to use . . . so we always salt more often than we plow.

[Chris22]

Locally the DOT has started mixing in beet juice with brine to spray on the roads which prevents ice. Apparently they can significantly reduce the amount of salt when they do so.

[GuitarStv]

Locally the DOT has started mixing in beet juice with brine to spray on the roads which prevents ice. Apparently they can significantly reduce the amount of salt when they do so.

Ours has been using beet juice on and off too . . . but my understanding is the beet juice is more expensive than road salt, so isn't sprayed as commonly.

[nereo]

Don't forget the salt!  I don't understand how people in some areas still find it acceptable to dump massive amounts of salt on the road. Kills the road, kills cars, messes up the soil and hurts water sources.

Salt is pretty horrific for the environment, cars, and roads.  Most importantly though, it wreaks hell on my bike.  Here in Toronto many of the local rivers and streams have been recorded as having higher salt concentrations than sea water after snowfall in the winter because of runoff.

Salt will melt the snow and ice faster than plows, and it's cheaper to use . . . so we always salt more often than we plow.

Fun story.  When working for DFO (Dept of Fisheries and Oceans) we got a crazy report of saltwater fish way up in the watershed.  Went and checked it out, and sure enough there they were, a good 50km upstream where they definitely shouldn't be.  Sampled the water, and it was 1.035 (slightly saltier than the N. Atlantic).  WTF?  Turns out there was a déneigement depot just a few hundred meters upstream, and being Quebec it was supplying tons of salt into the river even in July as it melted.

My supervisor convinced the town to move the depot to the other side of town and the salinity went away (and so did the saltwater fish).

[gaja]

Do you all live in single family houses?

I've always live in apartments or condos, and I have no idea where I would be able to reliably plug vs. the simplicity of spending a few minutes at a gas station.

I think when they can solve that problem, when super fast charging stations are off the interstates and on several street corners, maybe they won't even need the tax credits.

Earlier this week, I began working to get local developers to plan and install charging in new apartment developments. Hopefully other people will do the same in future. Long process though.

  Who pays for the electricity used for charging in the apartment parking lot ?    It's been a long time since i lived in an apartment, and i never lived in one where the electric power bill was not assigned to the specific renter and/or unit that used it.  One place i was at , the rent included cable tv, and garbage dumpsters- but the garbage service was likely mandated by the town.

  Would the builder wire up chargers seperately thru each apartment unit's dedicated electric line, so each unit gets one or two parking spaces that are billed directly from their unit's meter ?    Would the charger work on a pass code, so neighbors wouldn't "steal" your electricity ?   Or would the charging costs be borne like the cable tv example above, where the building owner just pays a variable amount each month depending on kilowatt use , but all residents pay a higher rent to cover this, regardless of whether they even own an EV or use the system  ? 

  { I imagine the cable tv costs was just one fixed price every month for the building owner, as there were no varying levels of service or # of channels available - each unit got the same "TV package", and if a renter never watched tv there was no rent discount }

Probably the easiest way would be to install a small (for now) number of 240v chargers that are associated with one of the charging networks like Chargepoint and set the prices to cover the electrical costs. Then the users activate the charger using their account and the network handles the billing.

The electricity use is much lower than most people think. If you drive 10 000 km/year, it will take about 2000 kWh. So the easiest way by far (and cheapest for all involved, since you don't need the fanciest equipment) is to let all EV owners pay ~$25/month for free access to the chargers. It usually averages out to be more than enough to cover the costs.

I'm guessing the cost would end up being more than just $25/mo. Especially at first when acceptance and usage remain low.

The average American drives around 13000 miles (say 21k km) per year. The EVs that are likely to be purchased moving forward will probably be large, heavy trucks and CUVS that aren't as likely to get 4-5 miles per kwh as what's currently out there. I'd guess an average CUV EV, driven by an average, inattentive American driver, in climates with plenty of HVAC use would get 3 miles per kwh. That might be optimistic. So the hypothetical average EV would use something like 4333 kwh of electricity per year. The average electrical cost in the US is around $0.13/kwh but that varies a lot. So for home charging prices it would be $563 annually. That's $46/month at pretty cheap home electricity rates just for the electricity. That doesn't pay for the charger, the operating/admin costs, or profit for the charging network if applicable.

Public chargers like Tesla's Supercharger network can price in those extras, but they tend to be $0.25-0.30/kwh in the US. And that puts the total cost to charge an EV at public chargers at $1083 ($90/mo).

If you have a flat fee for all users in a closed system (like an apartment complex, or a closed parking area), you don't need an operator, administration or any fancy equipment. You just need a plug (with a little bit of extra safety, like a type B breaker). I will never understand the need to over-engineer this stuff. Charging an EV is not rocket science. It is a battery that needs charging every so often.

[GuitarStv]

Don't forget the salt!  I don't understand how people in some areas still find it acceptable to dump massive amounts of salt on the road. Kills the road, kills cars, messes up the soil and hurts water sources.

Salt is pretty horrific for the environment, cars, and roads.  Most importantly though, it wreaks hell on my bike.  Here in Toronto many of the local rivers and streams have been recorded as having higher salt concentrations than sea water after snowfall in the winter because of runoff.

Salt will melt the snow and ice faster than plows, and it's cheaper to use . . . so we always salt more often than we plow.

Fun story.  When working for DFO (Dept of Fisheries and Oceans) we got a crazy report of saltwater fish way up in the watershed.  Went and checked it out, and sure enough there they were, a good 50km upstream where they definitely shouldn't be.  Sampled the water, and it was 1.035 (slightly saltier than the N. Atlantic).  WTF?  Turns out there was a déneigement depot just a few hundred meters upstream, and being Quebec it was supplying tons of salt into the river even in July as it melted.

My supervisor convinced the town to move the depot to the other side of town and the salinity went away (and so did the saltwater fish).

Ugh.  Remember when the Romans really hated someone and they would salt the earth of the land that person owned so that nothing would grow their again?

[GodlessCommie]

If you have a flat fee for all users in a closed system (like an apartment complex, or a closed parking area), you don't need an operator, administration or any fancy equipment. You just need a plug (with a little bit of extra safety, like a type B breaker). I will never understand the need to over-engineer this stuff. Charging an EV is not rocket science. It is a battery that needs charging every so often.

Yes. Also, 13c/kWh average is retail price. Businesses often pay less, and time-of-use can be further helpful.

[habanero]

If you have a flat fee for all users in a closed system (like an apartment complex, or a closed parking area), you don't need an operator, administration or any fancy equipment. You just need a plug (with a little bit of extra safety, like a type B breaker). I will never understand the need to over-engineer this stuff. Charging an EV is not rocket science. It is a battery that needs charging every so often.

In  a largish apartment block you might pretty quickly need fancy equipment if many want to charge their EVs because you might need load balancing. If everyone wants to charge at the same time there might just not be enough power available into the building. While an EV itself is not a massive load if charged with lowish power, say 2kW, it multiplies up, the load is present for hours and hours, and everyone generally want to charge at the same time and this time happens to collide with peak load as folks get home from work and start making dinner etc. Afaik its frequently an issue in older blocks where the main intake isn't that big as all was done at a time when less electricity was used.

[AlanStache]

If you have a flat fee for all users in a closed system (like an apartment complex, or a closed parking area), you don't need an operator, administration or any fancy equipment. You just need a plug (with a little bit of extra safety, like a type B breaker). I will never understand the need to over-engineer this stuff. Charging an EV is not rocket science. It is a battery that needs charging every so often.

In  a largish apartment block you might pretty quickly need fancy equipment if many want to charge their EVs because you might need load balancing. If everyone wants to charge at the same time there might just not be enough power available into the building. While an EV itself is not a massive load if charged with lowish power, say 2kW, it multiplies up, the load is present for hours and hours, and everyone generally want to charge at the same time and this time happens to collide with peak load as folks get home from work and start making dinner etc. Afaik its frequently an issue in older blocks where the main intake isn't that big as all was done at a time when less electricity was used.

I thought time shifting charging was already a thing, ie dont start charging as soon as it is plugged it but wait for cheaper power latter in the evening.  Presumably something similar could be done for a buildings power management. 

[habanero]

Yeah it is, but people are lazy, ignorant or both. You can get pretty smart chargers but they cost a bit. At least those i’ve seen. EV charging is pretty simple when a few do it but can get a lot
More complicated when many want to do it at the same time.

[tj]

Do you all live in single family houses?

I've always live in apartments or condos, and I have no idea where I would be able to reliably plug vs. the simplicity of spending a few minutes at a gas station.

I think when they can solve that problem, when super fast charging stations are off the interstates and on several street corners, maybe they won't even need the tax credits.

Earlier this week, I began working to get local developers to plan and install charging in new apartment developments. Hopefully other people will do the same in future. Long process though.

  Who pays for the electricity used for charging in the apartment parking lot ?    It's been a long time since i lived in an apartment, and i never lived in one where the electric power bill was not assigned to the specific renter and/or unit that used it.  One place i was at , the rent included cable tv, and garbage dumpsters- but the garbage service was likely mandated by the town.

  Would the builder wire up chargers seperately thru each apartment unit's dedicated electric line, so each unit gets one or two parking spaces that are billed directly from their unit's meter ?    Would the charger work on a pass code, so neighbors wouldn't "steal" your electricity ?   Or would the charging costs be borne like the cable tv example above, where the building owner just pays a variable amount each month depending on kilowatt use , but all residents pay a higher rent to cover this, regardless of whether they even own an EV or use the system  ? 

  { I imagine the cable tv costs was just one fixed price every month for the building owner, as there were no varying levels of service or # of channels available - each unit got the same "TV package", and if a renter never watched tv there was no rent discount }

Probably the easiest way would be to install a small (for now) number of 240v chargers that are associated with one of the charging networks like Chargepoint and set the prices to cover the electrical costs. Then the users activate the charger using their account and the network handles the billing.

The electricity use is much lower than most people think. If you drive 10 000 km/year, it will take about 2000 kWh. So the easiest way by far (and cheapest for all involved, since you don't need the fanciest equipment) is to let all EV owners pay ~$25/month for free access to the chargers. It usually averages out to be more than enough to cover the costs.

I'm guessing the cost would end up being more than just $25/mo. Especially at first when acceptance and usage remain low.

The average American drives around 13000 miles (say 21k km) per year. The EVs that are likely to be purchased moving forward will probably be large, heavy trucks and CUVS that aren't as likely to get 4-5 miles per kwh as what's currently out there. I'd guess an average CUV EV, driven by an average, inattentive American driver, in climates with plenty of HVAC use would get 3 miles per kwh. That might be optimistic. So the hypothetical average EV would use something like 4333 kwh of electricity per year. The average electrical cost in the US is around $0.13/kwh but that varies a lot. So for home charging prices it would be $563 annually. That's $46/month at pretty cheap home electricity rates just for the electricity. That doesn't pay for the charger, the operating/admin costs, or profit for the charging network if applicable.

Public chargers like Tesla's Supercharger network can price in those extras, but they tend to be $0.25-0.30/kwh in the US. And that puts the total cost to charge an EV at public chargers at $1083 ($90/mo).

If you have a flat fee for all users in a closed system (like an apartment complex, or a closed parking area), you don't need an operator, administration or any fancy equipment. You just need a plug (with a little bit of extra safety, like a type B breaker). I will never understand the need to over-engineer this stuff. Charging an EV is not rocket science. It is a battery that needs charging every so often.

it's not "every so often" though.  Don't most people charge every night? A tank of gas is usually at least 400 miles, which could last a month or even longer. How many EV's can you go a month without charging with about 10 miles of use per day?

[six-car-habit]

If you have a flat fee for all users in a closed system (like an apartment complex, or a closed parking area), you don't need an operator, administration or any fancy equipment. You just need a plug (with a little bit of extra safety, like a type B breaker). I will never understand the need to over-engineer this stuff. Charging an EV is not rocket science. It is a battery that needs charging every so often.

In  a largish apartment block you might pretty quickly need fancy equipment if many want to charge their EVs because you might need load balancing. If everyone wants to charge at the same time there might just not be enough power available into the building. While an EV itself is not a massive load if charged with lowish power, say 2kW, it multiplies up, the load is present for hours and hours, and everyone generally want to charge at the same time and this time happens to collide with peak load as folks get home from work and start making dinner etc. Afaik its frequently an issue in older blocks where the main intake isn't that big as all was done at a time when less electricity was used.

I thought time shifting charging was already a thing, ie dont start charging as soon as it is plugged it but wait for cheaper power latter in the evening.  Presumably something similar could be done for a buildings power management.

 Suppose a person is in a 50 unit complex, and 80% of the renters have an EV .  I would think any apartment complex that said-  " EV chargers available for all residents , but only from 10pm to 6am "   might get some rental prospects who would just rent elsewhere.  If that same person is in an apartment complex with no time restrictions, and with 40 to 60 other people wanting to charge their vehicle each day, i don't think they'd wait until 10pm to pull into a charger equipped space to start their charging, if they got home from work @ 3pm.
    Certainly it's possible for the complex to put timers on the chargers that cut-off electricity for the majority of the day, doesn't seem it would be very popular with the residents though.

[gaja]

Norway has had the highest sales numbers for EVs in the world, and for the last year or so it has been at over 50 % of all cars sold. Our incentives against fossil fuelled cars are massive, and ever increasing. Still, only 13 % of our total cars are EVs. Sure, the distribution is not equal, so you can get some complexes with a lot of EVs. But then you can splurge for the advanced chargers and systems there. There is no need to borrow problems and install super complex stuff that will get outdated before the fossil cars have been replaced. In fact, it might be a good idea to take this step by step, since the "smart" chargers usually can use the same wires as the "dumb" ones. I do agree that when you get a large number of EVs in one spot, load management is a thing. But that can be solved much easier than connecting it to payment solutions and paying admin fees to someone else. The simplest solution is to allow a max load for all the chargers. If you are alone, you get all the juice. If there is one other car it is split in two, and if everyone is plugged in, it will be down to trickle charging for everyone. There are also solutions available for giving variable load depending on the time of day. K.I.S.S.

No, most people don't charge every day. Even most of those who have cars with small batteries don't charge every day.

[Paper Chaser]

Do you all live in single family houses?

I've always live in apartments or condos, and I have no idea where I would be able to reliably plug vs. the simplicity of spending a few minutes at a gas station.

I think when they can solve that problem, when super fast charging stations are off the interstates and on several street corners, maybe they won't even need the tax credits.

Earlier this week, I began working to get local developers to plan and install charging in new apartment developments. Hopefully other people will do the same in future. Long process though.

  Who pays for the electricity used for charging in the apartment parking lot ?    It's been a long time since i lived in an apartment, and i never lived in one where the electric power bill was not assigned to the specific renter and/or unit that used it.  One place i was at , the rent included cable tv, and garbage dumpsters- but the garbage service was likely mandated by the town.

  Would the builder wire up chargers seperately thru each apartment unit's dedicated electric line, so each unit gets one or two parking spaces that are billed directly from their unit's meter ?    Would the charger work on a pass code, so neighbors wouldn't "steal" your electricity ?   Or would the charging costs be borne like the cable tv example above, where the building owner just pays a variable amount each month depending on kilowatt use , but all residents pay a higher rent to cover this, regardless of whether they even own an EV or use the system  ? 

  { I imagine the cable tv costs was just one fixed price every month for the building owner, as there were no varying levels of service or # of channels available - each unit got the same "TV package", and if a renter never watched tv there was no rent discount }

Probably the easiest way would be to install a small (for now) number of 240v chargers that are associated with one of the charging networks like Chargepoint and set the prices to cover the electrical costs. Then the users activate the charger using their account and the network handles the billing.

The electricity use is much lower than most people think. If you drive 10 000 km/year, it will take about 2000 kWh. So the easiest way by far (and cheapest for all involved, since you don't need the fanciest equipment) is to let all EV owners pay ~$25/month for free access to the chargers. It usually averages out to be more than enough to cover the costs.

I'm guessing the cost would end up being more than just $25/mo. Especially at first when acceptance and usage remain low.

The average American drives around 13000 miles (say 21k km) per year. The EVs that are likely to be purchased moving forward will probably be large, heavy trucks and CUVS that aren't as likely to get 4-5 miles per kwh as what's currently out there. I'd guess an average CUV EV, driven by an average, inattentive American driver, in climates with plenty of HVAC use would get 3 miles per kwh. That might be optimistic. So the hypothetical average EV would use something like 4333 kwh of electricity per year. The average electrical cost in the US is around $0.13/kwh but that varies a lot. So for home charging prices it would be $563 annually. That's $46/month at pretty cheap home electricity rates just for the electricity. That doesn't pay for the charger, the operating/admin costs, or profit for the charging network if applicable.

Public chargers like Tesla's Supercharger network can price in those extras, but they tend to be $0.25-0.30/kwh in the US. And that puts the total cost to charge an EV at public chargers at $1083 ($90/mo).

If you have a flat fee for all users in a closed system (like an apartment complex, or a closed parking area), you don't need an operator, administration or any fancy equipment. You just need a plug (with a little bit of extra safety, like a type B breaker). I will never understand the need to over-engineer this stuff. Charging an EV is not rocket science. It is a battery that needs charging every so often.

Agreed that a flat fee could be done pretty easily. I just think that it would end up being quite a bit more than $25/mo based on typical American usage and electric rates.

Also agree that providing the necessary outlets may not be a big deal and that there's no requirement to have a charger from one of the big charging companies installed. I'm just trying to show that EV charging costs are likely to be handled in different ways depending on specifics to each property. If each apartment has it's own garage, then you just run the power to each garage and whatever power is used simply gets added to the tenant's electricity bill each month. The units with their own charging could be rented for slightly higher amounts to pay for the upgrades. This seems like the ideal scenario for everybody to me, but we don't live in a world where it's common for each apartment to have it's own garage.
If the chargers or outlets would be in a public area of the complex, then something like a flat fee might make more sense. But will that flat fee just cover the cost of electricity used, or will the apartment complex/landlord add charges to cover other associated costs? I'd imagine most apartment complexes and landlords would charge an amount that covers the electricity used, plus some amount to recover the costs of installing and maintaining that infrastructure. I suppose individual markets might determine what is and is not considered an acceptable monthly cost in that scenario, but again I'd be surprised to see it be as little as $25.

[Just Joe]

Assumption: curbside parking, 2 story town homes.

220V chargers run off of a circuit similar in capacity to a water heater or electric dryer. Just run a conduit from each apartment's breaker panel to the curb (reserved parking) and park a meter on top of it. The apartment has a light switch that turns the charger on and off. Add a timer switch ($25) if the owner/user wants to charge during certain hours.

The Leaf - and other brands too I'm sure - has a feature that locks the charger connection in the charge port so no one can unplug the car without the owner's permission.

Breaker, conduit, contactor, timer switch or plain switch, wire, charger. Pretty simple and affordable. I installed a charger here at work. Used a "Juice Box" I purchased. Had the maintenance department run a circuit for it. Put it in a shed next to where we park our small fleet of Leafs. It has WIFI management of the charging process plus status updates. I think it was ~$500. There are  simple, less expensive versions that are designed to be in the weather. 

High rise apartments might require standalone chargers and some sort of code setup that bills the apartments who make use of the chargers. Maybe a NFC solution. Maybe a numerical code on a touch screen. If Chargepoint or one of the other branded solutions gets involved they may charge a user fee.

[nereo]

I’d add that the challenges of electrical connections to apartment buildings have been solved in northern countries (+Alaska) decades ago, where block heaters are common if not essential. Sure the amperage is a bit less but the process is the same.

If you Can plug in at home with 110V and you can plug in at work there is very, very little need fire any actual charging capacity save some fast chargers asking major travel corridors.
Too bad we aren’t there yet

[pecunia]

I’d add that the challenges of electrical connections to apartment buildings have been solved in northern countries (+Alaska) decades ago, where block heaters are common if not essential. Sure the amperage is a bit less but the process is the same.

If you Can plug in at home with 110V and you can plug in at work there is very, very little need fire any actual charging capacity save some fast chargers asking major travel corridors.
Too bad we aren’t there yet

How much margin do the service entrance cables of apartment buildings have?  When you size electrical equipment, you assume some diversity.  Basically, everything isn't on at the same time so you don't have to size the equipment as though it is on at the same time.  Now you are thinking of adding some big loads that will be on at the same time.  Well - it's got to be looked at to see whether the upstream wiring, breakers, transformers, etc have the amp ratings to handle all your new charging loads. 

If adequate margin was not applied on the initial installation, more equipment may need to be replaced / upsized than your initial assumption of the work at hand.  This could even include outages.

Just like lots of other stuff in old buildings, I guess.

[GodlessCommie]

Yes, the infrastructure need to be updated. But we are not going from under 3% of new car sales (meaning negligible % of the fleet) to 80% overnight. The time makes it manageable.

This also tells us that a switch away from cars is better than a switch from ICE to EV.

[habanero]

Basically, everything isn't on at the same time so you don't have to size the equipment as though it is on at the same time.  Now you are thinking of adding some big loads that will be on at the same time.  Well - it's got to be looked at to see whether the upstream wiring, breakers, transformers, etc have the amp ratings to handle all your new charging loads. 

My electrician once explained me roughly how they calculate actual need and number of breakers needed based on some factor since, as you say, not everything will be on at the same time and even lots of stuff that is "on" for long time, like a fridge, an oven, a water boiler etc is "off" quite a lot of the time as it just needs to maintain a state which requires a lot less energy than getting to that state in the first place. For EV chargers this factor is assumed 1 as it is, for dimenstoning purposes, considered always on. When I plug in my car it charges for say 8-24 hours depending on how much I've used since last time. Even prertty low charging current (say 9A at 230V so bit over 2kW) is roughly 10% of what the main circuit breaker in my house can take. If I installed a bad-ass 22kW charger, the breaker would cut if the water boiler turned itself on (or after 30 minutes to be exact as that's how the breakers are designed).

[gaja]

Basically, everything isn't on at the same time so you don't have to size the equipment as though it is on at the same time.  Now you are thinking of adding some big loads that will be on at the same time.  Well - it's got to be looked at to see whether the upstream wiring, breakers, transformers, etc have the amp ratings to handle all your new charging loads. 

My electrician once explained me roughly how they calculate actual need and number of breakers needed based on some factor since, as you say, not everything will be on at the same time and even lots of stuff that is "on" for long time, like a fridge, an oven, a water boiler etc is "off" quite a lot of the time as it just needs to maintain a state which requires a lot less energy than getting to that state in the first place. For EV chargers this factor is assumed 1 as it is, for dimenstoning purposes, considered always on. When I plug in my car it charges for say 8-24 hours depending on how much I've used since last time. Even prertty low charging current (say 9A at 230V so bit over 2kW) is roughly 10% of what the main circuit breaker in my house can take. If I installed a bad-ass 22kW charger, the breaker would cut if the water boiler turned itself on (or after 30 minutes to be exact as that's how the breakers are designed).

The simple and cheap solution that will be good enough for most places outside the most EV intensive areas of Norway, is to get a calculation of how much available load the building (or outside transformation station) has at peak load, and then break this available load down on as many chargers as possible. As mentioned above, you can get a (not too expensive) charging system that will automatically split the available current to the chargers that are in use, ensuring that you utilize everything to the max. You will probably not get enough chargers for all the people living in the building, but most places in the world only a few of those will need a charger. If (or when) the need is greater, it will make more economic sense to spend money to increase the available load to the building.

[pecunia]

Even easier than calculating is to get actual load data.  Either a clamp on ammeter with a data logger could be used or you might be able to get the load information from the utility.  Smart metering can give lots of good information.

[jinga nation]

Been seeing quite a few of the VW ID.4 in my area. Talked to a lady who brings her grandkids to the YMCA pool where my kids train. She said it was her first electric and had a lot of good things to say about it. She said she was skeptical at first, but has been convinced.

Might have to go to the dealer and have a test drive. Not going to buy one until my red Toyota dies. (Top Gear reference)

[Abe]

Been seeing quite a few of the VW ID.4 in my area. Talked to a lady who brings her grandkids to the YMCA pool where my kids train. She said it was her first electric and had a lot of good things to say about it. She said she was skeptical at first, but has been convinced.

Might have to go to the dealer and have a test drive. Not going to buy one until my red Toyota dies. (Top Gear reference)

I bought one and like it. The audio connection to the phone is wonky over bluetooth, so I plug it in to the USB. Other than that, works well.

[ender]

Oof, this isn't going to help perception https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/08/gm-recalls-every-chevy-bolt-ever-made-blames-lg-for-faulty-batteries/

[alcon835]

Oof, this isn't going to help perception https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/08/gm-recalls-every-chevy-bolt-ever-made-blames-lg-for-faulty-batteries/

Oof. That's.....really, really bad.

[Paper Chaser]

Ford says that higher than expected demand for their Lightning F150 model means they'll double their expected production from 40k units annually to 80k by 2024

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/exclusive-ford-doubles-lightning-production-target-strong-pre-launch-demand-2021-08-23/

That's still a fairly small percentage of overall Ford truck sales, but it's still promising

[boarder42]

Ford says that higher than expected demand for their Lightning F150 model means they'll double their expected production from 40k units annually to 80k by 2024

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/exclusive-ford-doubles-lightning-production-target-strong-pre-launch-demand-2021-08-23/

That's still a fairly small percentage of overall Ford truck sales, but it's still promising

Yeah and the standout is only 15k being made next year. At least it stands out to me since I pre-ordered.

[BicycleB]

Ford says that higher than expected demand for their Lightning F150 model means they'll double their expected production from 40k units annually to 80k by 2024

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/exclusive-ford-doubles-lightning-production-target-strong-pre-launch-demand-2021-08-23/

That's still a fairly small percentage of overall Ford truck sales, but it's still promising

Yeah and the standout is only 15k being made next year. At least it stands out to me since I pre-ordered.

Post pics after delivery! :)

[boarder42]

Ford says that higher than expected demand for their Lightning F150 model means they'll double their expected production from 40k units annually to 80k by 2024

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/exclusive-ford-doubles-lightning-production-target-strong-pre-launch-demand-2021-08-23/

That's still a fairly small percentage of overall Ford truck sales, but it's still promising

Yeah and the standout is only 15k being made next year. At least it stands out to me since I pre-ordered.

Post pics after delivery! :)

Doubt I get one unless they increase the range or the tax credit increases to 12.5k

[BDWW]

The F150 will be interesting, while it has the potential to satisfy a huge portion of the truck market, there are some use cases it will likely be a non-starter for.

Everyone that works around town, or just has a truck for show really (hauling something once a year maybe), it should be great for.  But the big question for me is towing. You can't get around the physics of towing, and any size-able load will likely demolish the range.

[boarder42]

The F150 will be interesting, while it has the potential to satisfy a huge portion of the truck market, there are some use cases it will likely be a non-starter for.

Everyone that works around town, or just has a truck for show really (hauling something once a year maybe), it should be great for.  But the big question for me is towing. You can't get around the physics of towing, and any size-able load will likely demolish the range.

Yeah I need it to get to a lake 2x a year that's 200 miles away. All data I've read tells me it will cut range in half. So I'll have to stop and charge half way or so and if I want to tow my cousins camper I have to charge every 2 hours of road time on road trips if it takes the 300 to 150. Really need 400 to 450 for it to work towing if range gets cut in half imo. But I currently do neither of those things. And don't own a truck. So whatever it can do increases my options.

[BicycleB]

The F150 will be interesting, while it has the potential to satisfy a huge portion of the truck market, there are some use cases it will likely be a non-starter for.

Everyone that works around town, or just has a truck for show really (hauling something once a year maybe), it should be great for.  But the big question for me is towing. You can't get around the physics of towing, and any size-able load will likely demolish the range.

Haha, good one @BDWW

[AccidentialMustache]

Yeah I need it to get to a lake 2x a year that's 200 miles away. All data I've read tells me it will cut range in half. So I'll have to stop and charge half way or so and if I want to tow my cousins camper I have to charge every 2 hours of road time on road trips if it takes the 300 to 150. Really need 400 to 450 for it to work towing if range gets cut in half imo. But I currently do neither of those things. And don't own a truck. So whatever it can do increases my options.

Sooner or later someone will get clever and realize a trailer is a great place to mount a range-extender engine (or spare battery pack, or fuel cell) and tow capable EVs will get a plug on the rear fender for power going "the other way." You don't even have to haul the range-extender around when you don't need it, unlike a PHEV.

[GodlessCommie]

Sooner or later someone will get clever and realize a trailer is a great place to mount a range-extender engine (or spare battery pack, or fuel cell) and tow capable EVs will get a plug on the rear fender for power going "the other way." You don't even have to haul the range-extender around when you don't need it, unlike a PHEV.

Or we will find that you can either have a lake, or tow a camper to it.

But by that time everything around the lake will long be ash.

(To clarify, I'm not blaming the entire climate change thing on the recreational camper users. And I have plenty of wasteful carbon emissions to cut myself, guilty as charged.  But the whole notion of needing to do something recreational in the face of the existential crisis strikes me as a perfect example of why we are all doomed.)

[boarder42]

Sooner or later someone will get clever and realize a trailer is a great place to mount a range-extender engine (or spare battery pack, or fuel cell) and tow capable EVs will get a plug on the rear fender for power going "the other way." You don't even have to haul the range-extender around when you don't need it, unlike a PHEV.

Or we will find that you can either have a lake, or tow a camper to it.

But by that time everything around the lake will long be ash.

(To clarify, I'm not blaming the entire climate change thing on the recreational camper users. And I have plenty of wasteful carbon emissions to cut myself, guilty as charged.  But the whole notion of needing to do something recreational in the face of the existential crisis strikes me as a perfect example of why we are all doomed.)

You'll love me then I live on a lake with a boat made to plow water and plan to tow it to a different lake 2x a year to plow some different water. Then borrow my cousins camper to go see national parks.

Like you said we all could cut things climate crisis is real. I debate this alot. When my stache goes up 50% in Fi I'll convert my water plow to electric. Still not the best but better than now

[shuffler]

Sooner or later someone will get clever and realize a trailer is a great place to mount a range-extender engine (or spare battery pack, or fuel cell) ...

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/08/this-teardrop-trailer-could-be-perfect-for-electric-vehicle-camping/

Much of that weight is due to the Boulder's battery pack, which is built into the trailer's frame. The idea is that the trailer's 75 kWh lithium-ion pack can recharge your EV at your destination.

[Chaplin]

Yeah I need it to get to a lake 2x a year that's 200 miles away. All data I've read tells me it will cut range in half. So I'll have to stop and charge half way or so and if I want to tow my cousins camper I have to charge every 2 hours of road time on road trips if it takes the 300 to 150. Really need 400 to 450 for it to work towing if range gets cut in half imo. But I currently do neither of those things. And don't own a truck. So whatever it can do increases my options.

Sooner or later someone will get clever and realize a trailer is a great place to mount a range-extender engine (or spare battery pack, or fuel cell) and tow capable EVs will get a plug on the rear fender for power going "the other way." You don't even have to haul the range-extender around when you don't need it, unlike a PHEV.

Many people have realized it. The first one I heard of (as a concept) must have been close to ten years ago.



If it's part of a bigger trailer (RV, for example), I can see it happening, but I don't give it much of a chance in the configuration shown in the picture. The car has to be made to support accepting the charge at the same time as driving, and any given EV owner might only need one rarely enough to make the economics of developing and building them pretty poor, even if they are a rental item. Cars with reasonably-sized batteries, and reasonably fast charging deal with the vast majority of the use cases. They're like battery-swapping - a lot of effort to solve a problem that is small and getting smaller. Again RVs and other towing applications with something built into those trailers are a different story.

[Paper Chaser]

Ford says that higher than expected demand for their Lightning F150 model means they'll double their expected production from 40k units annually to 80k by 2024

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/exclusive-ford-doubles-lightning-production-target-strong-pre-launch-demand-2021-08-23/

That's still a fairly small percentage of overall Ford truck sales, but it's still promising

Yeah and the standout is only 15k being made next year. At least it stands out to me since I pre-ordered.

It will be interesting to see which trim levels they prioritize early on in production. The current trend in vehicles, especially EVs, is to start selling the higher priced, highest profit trim levels first. For the Lightning, that would be $50k+ trucks with luxury features and tech geared more toward suburban dads. BUT, Ford has massive fleet sales, and offering EVs for fleet customers has been a big part of their decision making recently (with an EV Transit van and cheaper, more spartan versions of the Lightning). So if a big part of the current interest is coming from fleets, maybe they buck the trend and actually put out some of the cheaper models first to get them in the hands of some of their best customers? I'm not sure the bean counters will let that happen, but it's probably not the worst idea. They'd have to have all of the bugs worked out though. Suburban dads are more likely to tolerate some hiccups than fleets that need their trucks to work in order to make money. Either way, it's something that I'll be interested in watching over the next year or two.

[gaja]

Dethleffs has made a caravan with battery and motors: https://www.erwinhymergroup.com/en/press/news/dethleffs-ehome-coco