Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[gooki]

Urban overhall will happen once autonomous EVs become mainstream. Once you remove the need for kerb side parking you free up a whole lot of urban realestate.

[clifp]

Landlords who want to attract high-quality tenants will put in chargers or plugs for a mobile charger. A friend who's family business does rentals near UofI Chicago was asking me about them after we got the EV because they were looking at putting them in during a teardown/planned development unit.

Rich international students driving teslas want a place to live and charge. You get tenants who are more likely to pay and less likely to leave (at least until other landlords install chargers).

It is been a bitch for several of my very rich friends who have or want to buy Tesla to get EV chargers in their apartment complexes.  Plus this is in Hawaii, which I think is 2nd to California of EVs/capita. I know one guy, took 4 years of pushing the properties manager to get 4 chargers for 400+ units installed.  Mind you this is for an apartment complex where studios start at $1 million, and condos average over $2 million, and his place is probably worth $4 million, plus they pay an HOA fee are roughly $1K/month per million of value.

[StashingAway]

Urban overhall will happen once autonomous EVs become mainstream. Once you remove the need for kerb side parking you free up a whole lot of urban realestate.

That promise has been being given since the New York World's fair in 1939 (called "Futurama" presented by GM), still hasn't happened. What has happened is that auto makers have convinced public figures and urban planners that autos are #1 priority in development, something that the EV autonomous revolution doesn't solve.

You're more likely to find that $40k model 3 than getting the US to overhaul urban design that much that quickly. If nothing else trillions of dollars of property value hinges on the status quo.

Yes, I know, which is why our effort should be toward urban overhal rather than EVs. This is the exacty reason why "we can work on both at the same time" point falls short: if we work on both, urban design will pan out to nothing and we will have just kicked the can down the road making our future improvished infrastrucutre even worse.

[AlanStache]

Urban overhall will happen once autonomous EVs become mainstream. Once you remove the need for kerb side parking you free up a whole lot of urban realestate.

That promise has been being given since the New York World's fair in 1939 (called "Futurama" presented by GM), still hasn't happened. What has happened is that auto makers have convinced public figures and urban planners that autos are #1 priority in development, something that the EV autonomous revolution doesn't solve.

I have some hope that urban planners have learned something in the last century but are constrained by misc public leaders.  As has been noted 1000 times before in this thread a lot of the change that needs to happen will be opposed by current property owners and maybe even hopeful future property owners. 

Last night I heard that my governor wants to remove the gas tax, like this is moving in exactly the wrong direction.  But it might be popular because people choose to buy a gas guzzler and gas is now 0.20$/gal more expensive than it was a few months ago.   

[RWD]

Last night I heard that my governor wants to remove the gas tax, like this is moving in exactly the wrong direction.  But it might be popular because people choose to buy a gas guzzler and gas is now 0.20$/gal more expensive than it was a few months ago.

People are so weird about gas prices. Like I heard someone on the radio (while at the dentist, I don't usually listen to radio) say "I filled up and gas was $4.50, oh my gosh so expensive!!" (paraphrased). But I remember when gas was $4.50+ in California over a decade ago! Isn't $4.50/gallon actually really cheap? If you have a reasonable 30 mpg vehicle (e.g. CR-V) it's just 15 cents per mile.

[LennStar]

Plus the smaller batteries will have smaller CO2 footprints than the long range EVs (Tesla, etc) so they'll reach their environmental break even point sooner.

Only if using the same batteries.

If we assume vehicle weight is directly correlated to manufacturing CO2 emissions my 2014 Nissan Leaf weighs 3,277 lbs vs my father's Tesla Model 3 of 3,558 lbs. Yes the Tesla weighs 9% more but over it's useful life will likely travel 100-200% more miles.

My lil' tin can weights 1 ton, burner motor included.
For someone who drives not much, that is still more environmentally friendly than a Tesla I guess, especially of you offset with the saved money, as I said before.

As a midwesterner, too often the 4-wheel glass/metal box is actually a weather safety thing, even if you could otherwise wave a wand and fix all the infrastructure issues that make my ebike not quite good enough for the average joe.

You know, it's probably cheaper to build bike paths with solar roofs than to build car streets.

Last night I heard that my governor wants to remove the gas tax, like this is moving in exactly the wrong direction.  But it might be popular because people choose to buy a gas guzzler and gas is now 0.20$/gal more expensive than it was a few months ago.

I am all for it! Remove gas tax, enact carbon tax. 

[AlanStache]

...
Last night I heard that my governor wants to remove the gas tax, like this is moving in exactly the wrong direction.  But it might be popular because people choose to buy a gas guzzler and gas is now 0.20$/gal more expensive than it was a few months ago.

I am all for it! Remove gas tax, enact carbon tax.
[/quote]

He will propose a state carbon tax will right after he signs a mandate to teach fact-based-history and biology...

[nereo]

Last night I heard that my governor wants to remove the gas tax, like this is moving in exactly the wrong direction.  But it might be popular because people choose to buy a gas guzzler and gas is now 0.20$/gal more expensive than it was a few months ago.

I am all for it! Remove gas tax, enact carbon tax.

Why would you wish to remove the gasoline tax?

[LennStar]

Last night I heard that my governor wants to remove the gas tax, like this is moving in exactly the wrong direction.  But it might be popular because people choose to buy a gas guzzler and gas is now 0.20$/gal more expensive than it was a few months ago.

I am all for it! Remove gas tax, enact carbon tax.

Why would you wish to remove the gasoline tax?

Because a general carbon tax is (theoretically) way more effective. Also, if you take cash only for fuel, then indeed (one of the few cases) you will only tax the poor in a few years, because everyone who can afford the initial cost will drive electric.

My favorite model would be a high carbon tax on everything where 3/4 get redistributed per head. Rest for improving public transit.

[BDWW]

Re the LG cells.  Personally, I'm leery of any pouch style cell. Maybe it's bad intuition, but the idea of a pouch cell in a vehicle that experiences all kinds of vibrations and stresses, as well as the relatively extreme heat, cold and cycle duty spooks me. Perhaps over time, it'll bear out fine, but Tesla has proven the cylindrical cell's robustness by now. 
I suspect the prismatic lifepo4 cells will be fine too. In fact, they have been used for some time in smaller and older EVs and held up fine. Not to mention the chemistry is significantly safer to begin with.

Lifepo4 cells have gotten quite a bit better over time, they now match the energy density of NMC from ~6 or 7 years ago.  Hopefully if they keep improving, they'll solve several issues at the same time. They're less dangerous, and they don't rely on hard to get/conflict minerals.

I got a bit of push back when I first posted this, claiming pouch cells were fine in laptops, phones, etc.
Well, now the NHTSA is investigating many(most?) vehicles that are using LG pouch cells. 

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/04/multiple-recalls-spark-fed-investigation-of-lgs-electric-car-batteries/
I

[BicycleB]

I missed some posts. Have we discussed the Aptera? (Please accept my apologies.)

This is the electric car I wanted somebody to build. Can run 40 miles/day on just its built-in solar cells! Apparently also good for camping. 250 to 1000 miles on battery depending on battery choice. Looks futuristic, few moving parts, designed for reliability with low manufacturing cost. Also a right-to-repair dream in the hopefully rare event of needing repairs: full permission; direct shipping of parts in 24 hours; QR codes on car link to how-to videos explaing DIY parts replacement are promised too. Full disclosure - a couple weeks ago when the most recent Series A was open, I invested.

https://aptera.us/

Leno interviews co-CEOs Chris Anthony and Steve Fambro; starts w/ specs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsYyJJFYRvc&t=388s

Sandy Munro's take (he is an early investor btw):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DhzkUnIh58

Rich Rebuilds mixes jokes, interview and test drives. Takes a minute or two before you realize the intro really is a setup for the topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-KdsjVQhu0&t=1356s

PS. 100 watt hours/ mile, 0 to 60 mph in 3.5 seconds.

Slow rollout for production though. https://www.carlabnews.com/electric/if-you-ordered-an-aptera-your-delivery-might-have-been-pushed-back-to-2023-or-2024-2/

[nereo]

Wow.  Is that vehicle street-legal in all 50 states?

[BicycleB]

Wow.  Is that vehicle street-legal in all 50 states?

I think so.

I mean, strictly speaking the available photos like the one I posted are probably from the beta or gamma preproduction models, and I don't know if those have been explicitly certified by any state authorities. I don't know anything about the state standards. But the production models are expected to be street legal everywhere in USA afaik. Because the aerodynamic shape is a key factor in their design and the composite is easy to set with simple molds, I think production will look the same. (fwiw they've shown 2 paint jobs - the sleek Penguin look and all-black Batman look. Google Images ftw, sorry about the large image size)

If I remember correctly, the Rich Rebuilds video and I think the Jay Leno vid mention that because it has a structure like a car (surrounds you, acts like rollbar, etc) it is in the car category rather than the motorcycle one, no helmet needed. The CEOs told Rich that they tried to knock it off its feet in crash pad tests but they couldn't because the base is so wide (and the weight is under the seat with the battery). Also they said that because it's round, in crashes it protects the hip point (the usual vulnerable spot on impact) by sliding off. Not sure if that's actually safer than crumple zones but I guess time will tell.

[AccidentialMustache]

It is worth noting it is only a 2-seater, but closer in size to the Model Y/Mach E/ID.4 than something like a Honda Fit. Tripod cars have a bad history of flipping over though, so I'd want to see some independent testing (the moose test, for example) before I signed on.

Also, I'm... not so sure I believe their numbers. The 99.9kwh pack in the Mach E is claimed to be ~1800 lbs. Cut that down to 60kwh and you're still looking at 1100 lbs of battery -- so 700 lbs for the whole rest of the car? I guess that's possible but ... not sure I believe it. Not when an e-bike is easily 50+ lbs (sans battery) and that's a lot smaller/lighter single 750 watt motor (not 3x 50kw motors), tiny tires, no canopy, no hvac, no suspension, etc.

[RWD]

Wow.  Is that vehicle street-legal in all 50 states?

Three-wheeled vehicles are often categorized as motorcycles and don't have have to meet the same safety regulations as four-wheeled vehicles.

[evme]

I missed some posts. Have we discussed the Aptera? (Please accept my apologies.)

This is the electric car I wanted somebody to build. Can run 40 miles/day on just its built-in solar cells!

Keep in mind that's highly variable as it will depend on how much direct sun it gets per day. Certain climates like the PNW will likely get significantly less than that. Cool concept though.

[StashingAway]

Tripod cars have a bad history of flipping over though, so I'd want to see some independent testing (the moose test, for example) before I signed on.

I may be speaking over my pay level here, but I think the ones that have problems are ones with the single wheel in front. Two wheels in front/one in back is much more stable

[AccidentialMustache]

I may be speaking over my pay level here, but I think the ones that have problems are ones with the single wheel in front. Two wheels in front/one in back is much more stable

I'm no an automotive engineer, but as a general rule you're correct. What gets you in trouble with triangle forward is going into a corner too fast then hitting the brakes, adding that deceleration vector to the against-the-turn inertia vector and coming up with a resulting vector big enough to flip the vehicle. There's still issues with the rear triangle, but it comes around turning and being stupid with the accelerator at the same time... which with a car with a claimed 3.5 second 0-to-60 is something of a concern.

But usually "too fast into a corner" is followed by "stomp on the brakes" not "stomp on the accelerator."

Edit: flipped the inertia vector in the turn. Oops.

[BicycleB]

I missed some posts. Have we discussed the Aptera? (Please accept my apologies.)

This is the electric car I wanted somebody to build. Can run 40 miles/day on just its built-in solar cells!

Keep in mind that's highly variable as it will depend on how much direct sun it gets per day. Certain climates like the PNW will likely get significantly less than that. Cool concept though.

Fair point. Also the 40 mile quote is for the lightest version. The ones with a heavier battery would get fewer miles even with full sun.

[BicycleB]

Video from EV Youtube channel "Transport Evolved" includes brief history of Aptera, such as:

2005-2011
Founders built diesel and electric demo models
Brought in CEO (to move forward as business?) while one founder was CTO
Lost federal grant (similar to Tesla's) over wording that required four wheel vehicles
CEO sold IP to Chinese as company went bankrupt

201x-2019
Chinese never built the car in China
Founders eventually succeeded in repurchasing IP

2019-present
Renewed all-electric development
Original founders as co-CEOs (I think)
Ambitious production timelines missed
Current news is that real production equipment and supply contracts are falling in place
Company has been unusually open with customers re steps taken, allowing facility tours and preproduction test drives

Vid is divided into labeled segments:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1X9NMHYeKY

[Paper Chaser]

A 3 wheeled, 2 seat, dedicated EV with 40 miles of range seems like a much worse option to me than something like a Chevy Volt or Toyota Rav4 Prime. They both have similar electric range, but also an ICE for anything longer. They have to actually pass crash tests to be sold, and have functionality that the Aptera lacks (hauling more than a couple of people, transporting some cargo, being able to go on longer trips with no planning at all, etc). A small, swoopy 2 seat EV that's only good for short trips with a couple of people just seems way too specialized and niche to justify the price when there are more capable options for similar money.

[AlanStache]

A 3 wheeled, 2 seat, dedicated EV with 40 miles of range seems like a much worse option to me than something like a Chevy Volt or Toyota Rav4 Prime. They both have similar electric range, but also an ICE for anything longer. They have to actually pass crash tests to be sold, and have functionality that the Aptera lacks (hauling more than a couple of people, transporting some cargo, being able to go on longer trips with no planning at all, etc). A small, swoopy 2 seat EV that's only good for short trips with a couple of people just seems way too specialized and niche to justify the price when there are more capable options for similar money.

40 miles/day is the range from solar charging only, it has a stated range of 1000 miles from a full battery charge.  It has a trunk that is actually fairly good size.  Go watch one of the linked videos above, they also talk about crash safety.  The video I saw they quoted a price of 25k$.

[NaN]

Aptera has been to the grave and back once. Not sure how it sticks around. I'm guessing they are just developing and then selling rights to IP and the actual vehicle is not really meant for anything more than pretty graphics.

[Just Joe]

It is worth noting it is only a 2-seater, but closer in size to the Model Y/Mach E/ID.4 than something like a Honda Fit. Tripod cars have a bad history of flipping over though, so I'd want to see some independent testing (the moose test, for example) before I signed on.

Also, I'm... not so sure I believe their numbers. The 99.9kwh pack in the Mach E is claimed to be ~1800 lbs. Cut that down to 60kwh and you're still looking at 1100 lbs of battery -- so 700 lbs for the whole rest of the car? I guess that's possible but ... not sure I believe it. Not when an e-bike is easily 50+ lbs (sans battery) and that's a lot smaller/lighter single 750 watt motor (not 3x 50kw motors), tiny tires, no canopy, no hvac, no suspension, etc.

These guys are clowns but I thought this was funny... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQh56geU0X8

[Paper Chaser]

A 3 wheeled, 2 seat, dedicated EV with 40 miles of range seems like a much worse option to me than something like a Chevy Volt or Toyota Rav4 Prime. They both have similar electric range, but also an ICE for anything longer. They have to actually pass crash tests to be sold, and have functionality that the Aptera lacks (hauling more than a couple of people, transporting some cargo, being able to go on longer trips with no planning at all, etc). A small, swoopy 2 seat EV that's only good for short trips with a couple of people just seems way too specialized and niche to justify the price when there are more capable options for similar money.

40 miles/day is the range from solar charging only, it has a stated range of 1000 miles from a full battery charge.  It has a trunk that is actually fairly good size.  Go watch one of the linked videos above, they also talk about crash safety.  The video I saw they quoted a price of 25k$.

Yeah, I misunderstood. But the language on the official website is all full of "maybe"s, "up to"s and "about"s and the product itself has been in the final development stage forever. Maybe this time it actually works out for them, but I'm skeptical.

https://aptera.us/vehicle/

"Aptera’s Never Charge technology can give you up to about 40 miles per day of free driving powered by the sun."
- Sounds a lot like in the perfect location, with perfect sun intensity you might get 40 miles of added range. It's a cool concept, but in reality this feature probably adds closer to 10 miles per day. Other solar roof options typically just provide enough power to run the HVAC in the vehicle. They're less powerful, but the limitations for panel shape, sun angle, and intensity are still the same.

Getting one with 1000mile range and the full solar capability will cost you over $50k:

https://aptera.us/reserve/

[AlanStache]

...
Yeah, I misunderstood. But the language on the official website is all full of "maybe"s, "up to"s and "about"s and the product itself has been in the final development stage forever. Maybe this time it actually works out for them, but I'm skeptical.

https://aptera.us/vehicle/

"Aptera’s Never Charge technology can give you up to about 40 miles per day of free driving powered by the sun."
- Sounds a lot like in the perfect location, with perfect sun intensity you might get 40 miles of added range. It's a cool concept, but in reality this feature probably adds closer to 10 miles per day. Other solar roof options typically just provide enough power to run the HVAC in the vehicle. They're less powerful, but the limitations for panel shape, sun angle, and intensity are still the same.

Getting one with 1000mile range and the full solar capability will cost you over $50k:

https://aptera.us/reserve/

thanks for the reserve link, fun to play around with the options.  Looks like for ~30k or low 30's you can get a very capable car with ~400 miles range.  1000 mile range, well I have never had need to drive 1/3 of the way across the US without stopping but I guess that might be in someone's use case.

[StashingAway]

...
Yeah, I misunderstood. But the language on the official website is all full of "maybe"s, "up to"s and "about"s and the product itself has been in the final development stage forever. Maybe this time it actually works out for them, but I'm skeptical.

https://aptera.us/vehicle/

"Aptera’s Never Charge technology can give you up to about 40 miles per day of free driving powered by the sun."
- Sounds a lot like in the perfect location, with perfect sun intensity you might get 40 miles of added range. It's a cool concept, but in reality this feature probably adds closer to 10 miles per day. Other solar roof options typically just provide enough power to run the HVAC in the vehicle. They're less powerful, but the limitations for panel shape, sun angle, and intensity are still the same.

Getting one with 1000mile range and the full solar capability will cost you over $50k:

https://aptera.us/reserve/

thanks for the reserve link, fun to play around with the options.  Looks like for ~30k or low 30's you can get a very capable car with ~400 miles range.  1000 mile range, well I have never had need to drive 1/3 of the way across the US without stopping but I guess that might be in someone's use case.

It's not really that practical, though. It's as practical as a motorcycle with a pillion seat, at least from a utility standpoint. I can get a 2020 Kawasaki Versys for 8K around here, and I would own that tomorrow if I did. Then I could buy some carbon offsets and gas for 15 years and still come out ahead financially, plus it's easier to store and park.

[neo von retorch]

Price and volume are still issues, but this is indication of progress.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/06/not-your-grandpas-ride-the-2023-cadillac-lyriq-tested/

$63k, 312 mile range, 340 HP (RWD), luxury SUV. With people spending $40k on "everyday" SUVs, this isn't a huge stretch.

But only 25,000 this year, all sold out already.

I was really worried about GM's platform after the insane weight of the Hummer. This is still quite heavy at 5600 lbs, while the typical Honda/Toyota/Mazda mid-sized SUV might be 3500 lbs.

[AlanStache]

...

It's not really that practical, though. It's as practical as a motorcycle with a pillion seat, at least from a utility standpoint. I can get a 2020 Kawasaki Versys for 8K around here, and I would own that tomorrow if I did. Then I could buy some carbon offsets and gas for 15 years and still come out ahead financially, plus it's easier to store and park.

?  No, or what that hyperbole?  The aptera could probably replace almost 100% of what I use my corolla for.  I am single and occasionally have a passenger and have a driveway that gets good sun light.  The only thing it might not do for me is haul as many bags of dirt from the garden center, but like making two trips every few years instead of one to buy bags of mulch does not seem like a reason to buy one car vs some other.  It has a decent sized trunk for costco runs or what ever other random stuff I want to transport in a protected environment. 
Yes clearly it would be wise to see the production version before sending them a check or becoming fixated on one, but if you see a motor cycle as equally practical then I guess to each there own. 

[StashingAway]

...

It's not really that practical, though. It's as practical as a motorcycle with a pillion seat, at least from a utility standpoint. I can get a 2020 Kawasaki Versys for 8K around here, and I would own that tomorrow if I did. Then I could buy some carbon offsets and gas for 15 years and still come out ahead financially, plus it's easier to store and park.

?  No.  The aptera could probably replace almost 100% of what I use my corolla for.  I am single and occasionally have a passenger and have a driveway that gets good sun light.  The only thing it might not do for me is haul as many bags of dirt from the garden center, but like making two trips every few years instead of one to buy bags of mulch does not seem like a reason to buy one car vs some other.  It has a decent sized trunk for costco runs or what ever other random stuff I want to transport in a protected environment. 
Yes clearly it would be wise to see the production version before sending them a check or becoming fixated on one, but if you see a motor cycle as equally practical then I guess to each there own.

Right; you can do all of those things with the Versys and hard bags at 1/3 the cost (and twice the fun). I guess I'm not saying that it wouldn't work, but saying it's "only $30K" is what is humorous to me. I'm not knocking people buying it, I'm just ribbing a little on the justification given.

[neo von retorch]

Aptera feels a lot more like Tesla than GM/Ford.

GM advertised the Bolt at $30k and now it's $26k.
Ford advertised the Ford Lightning at $40k - that's not out yet, but we'll see. The Mach-E starts at around $44k.
Tesla advertised the Model 3 at $35k, and it's... $50k. The Cybertruck will be $40k and available... just, nevermind.

At any rate, I do not feel strongly that Aptera will be the change in the wind that makes EVs an object of mainstream consumption in the United States :)

[AccidentialMustache]

Ford has been very rapidly raising the price of the Mach E. The '22s are +3k on the '21s and '23s was rumored to have 6k on top of that. So 9k in a touch over a year, although there was also some possible walking back of those numbers, so who knows until the '23s orders open up.

They can't make enough of them and dealers are slapping 10k market adjustments on them (and fools still buying), I guess I can't blame Ford. Judge them yes, blame them no.


I think the Aptera has potential. If you believe the CR survey on "most satisfying cars", gen X (hi!) empty nesters (... not yet) should eat them up. Gen X has the most ev-stacked top-5 (M3, MY, MME), and the non-evs are a minivan (meh at empty nest time) and the ICE Mustang. If you're willing to buy the longer range version, then the relative lack of charging infrastructure becomes not such a big deal for long trips.


On the motorcycle argument? One word: winter.

[Alchemisst]

I saw a video recently that electric cars actually produce more co2 over the whole lifetime including production

[AlanStache]

Glad to see Gen-X included on a list for once :-)

Also with the Aptera early buyers would get the fed tax credit, and they claim a commitment to Right to Repair.  But those are clearly not set in stone and may/will change. 

[Paper Chaser]

Price and volume are still issues, but this is indication of progress.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/06/not-your-grandpas-ride-the-2023-cadillac-lyriq-tested/

$63k, 312 mile range, 340 HP (RWD), luxury SUV. With people spending $40k on "everyday" SUVs, this isn't a huge stretch.

But only 25,000 this year, all sold out already.

I was really worried about GM's platform after the insane weight of the Hummer. This is still quite heavy at 5600 lbs, while the typical Honda/Toyota/Mazda mid-sized SUV might be 3500 lbs.

I saw a Lyriq in the real world back in May and it certainly stood out among the other hum drum vehicles in the small town hotel parking lot. But I'm not sure the weight disparity is quite as large as you claim. It's very similar in size to a Toyota Highlander, which weighs 4100-4500lbs. It's just a couple of inches smaller than a Lincoln Aviator (similar level of features/refinement) and those weigh 4700-5600lbs.

[RWD]

I saw a video recently that electric cars actually produce more co2 over the whole lifetime including production

I've seen the opposite.
https://environment.yale.edu/news/article/yse-study-finds-electric-vehicles-provide-lower-carbon-emissions-through-additional

[neo von retorch]

re: Lyriq

Hmm it is quite long at 196 inches. A nice comparison is the Cadillac XT4 - just 181 inches, and under 3700 lbs. Definitely different classes. (I like vehicles like the CR-V, Rav4, CX-5, so that's my benchmark...)

So the XT5 is 190 inches, 4300 lbs. The XT6 is a whopping 198 inches, 4440 lbs. So there it's about a 1200 lb surplus of weight to go electric.

[Just Joe]

I was really worried about GM's platform after the insane weight of the Hummer. This is still quite heavy at 5600 lbs, while the typical Honda/Toyota/Mazda mid-sized SUV might be 3500 lbs.

The Honda Pilot and its Acura MDX cousin is 4300 lbs.

The CRV is ~3500 lbs. (Pretty impressive since the smaller original CRV was 3300 lbs).

[Just Joe]

I saw a video recently that electric cars actually produce more co2 over the whole lifetime including production

Yes, the way forward is less turnover in the automobile fleet (keep it longer, fewer built/scrapped per year, repair it) and changing our towns and cities so people can walk or bike more.

[nereo]

I saw a video recently that electric cars actually produce more co2 over the whole lifetime including production

Every peer reviewed analysis I've come across indicates the opposite - when conducting a lifecycle analysis (which includes production) EVs do much better. 
Here is one where they used a PCA to calculate emissions in all 50 states, and included the manufacturing of various components

[LennStar]

I saw a video recently that electric cars actually produce more co2 over the whole lifetime including production

Only if all your electricity comes from coal or if you compare an electric F-350 with a compact car with low mileage.

[AccidentialMustache]

Glad to see Gen-X included on a list for once :-)

Also with the Aptera early buyers would get the fed tax credit, and they claim a commitment to Right to Repair.  But those are clearly not set in stone and may/will change.

Right to repair seems to be working for valve with the steam deck. We can hope more companies will figure that out.

[AccidentialMustache]

I saw a video recently that electric cars actually produce more co2 over the whole lifetime including production

Let me guess. It was a brit, who's a petrol head but "not ev hostile"? If not, probably just more copycat garbage based on him.

Study in a peer-reviewed journal or it should be automatically suspect of being oil industry astroturfing. They've done too much of it, and done it for too long, to take any other view.

[StashingAway]

On the motorcycle argument? One word: winter.

The argument is an example of big picture thinking. That car for 30K (or 50K?) is a pretty penny.

This is the MMM forum; realistically we should be comparing to a bicycle, which, you know... winter!

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/12/23/its-winter-get-out-and-enjoy-it/

[Just Joe]

Eventually I may consider putting an EV kit in our existing daily driver. Just drive it forever.

[talltexan]

re: Lyriq

Hmm it is quite long at 196 inches. A nice comparison is the Cadillac XT4 - just 181 inches, and under 3700 lbs. Definitely different classes. (I like vehicles like the CR-V, Rav4, CX-5, so that's my benchmark...)

So the XT5 is 190 inches, 4300 lbs. The XT6 is a whopping 198 inches, 4440 lbs. So there it's about a 1200 lb surplus of weight to go electric.

My wife and I were watching a show on tiger sharks last night, and it's interesting to compare these lengths to the lengths of the largest sharks.

[AccidentialMustache]

The argument is an example of big picture thinking. That car for 30K (or 50K?) is a pretty penny.

This is the MMM forum; realistically we should be comparing to a bicycle, which, you know... winter!

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/12/23/its-winter-get-out-and-enjoy-it/

Yeahno. I've done it. And then I got off the bike and walked it home because it wasn't safe. Snow plus weight distribution was making the cargo bike fishtail and it simply wasn't safe. I was either going to go down, or pull something trying to avoid going down, or both.

Where MMM is, aka where snow stays snow, not turns into glare ice? Sure. That's not my climate. I get snow-melts-freezes-ice.

[StashingAway]

The argument is an example of big picture thinking. That car for 30K (or 50K?) is a pretty penny.

This is the MMM forum; realistically we should be comparing to a bicycle, which, you know... winter!

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/12/23/its-winter-get-out-and-enjoy-it/

Yeahno. I've done it. And then I got off the bike and walked it home because it wasn't safe. Snow plus weight distribution was making the cargo bike fishtail and it simply wasn't safe. I was either going to go down, or pull something trying to avoid going down, or both.

Where MMM is, aka where snow stays snow, not turns into glare ice? Sure. That's not my climate. I get snow-melts-freezes-ice.

Quit making excuses, Mr complainypants! Gone are the days of a forum Facepunch! There are studded tires and snow tires for bikes. A lot of the utility of the MMM approach is to not just accept defeat.

[talltexan]

We're in a different world than the one we expected in early 2020. I was surprised to tally up the numbers and see that I drove 1,000 miles over the past month. I worked on-site for more than half of the work days in June because my kids had summer camps near where I work.

But this week, it's back to going nowhere.

[nereo]

[first world problems] but... getting a bit frustrated that I've had no movement on my pre-order for an EV.  It's been almost three months now, and we know that once we hit the next point ("delivery") it will be an additional 3-5 weeks, so it looks like the end of summer at the earliest.

As someone who'd been planning to replace our last ICE with a BEV (we have one PHEV) few years, it's frustrating that our plans get delayed with $5/gas and hundreds-of-thousands rushing into the EV space.  Glad they are now popular, but wish they had gotten popular about three months later.  Oh well.