Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[tj]

Does this mean it could make sense to buy  a subsidized PHEV and literally never charge it?

You could, plenty of people do (based on used Volt lifetime fuel economy values), but it's still pretty stupid.  I think they're mostly "company cars" that have a gas card.  It still gets the tax credit, but I've no idea why you'd do that sort of thing on purpose.

My point was to observe that public paid charging is obscene.  If I charge at home, that 10kWh/35 miles is $1, vs $2.[whatever gas is right now].  It's less than half the energy cost, before getting into extended oil change intervals and such.

If you're never going to charge it, you're better off with a pure hybrid (Prius or such), over a PHEV.  The pure hybrids tend to get better fuel economy on the gas engine.  They're lighter than a PHEV, and typically have somewhat fancier engines.  The Gen 1 Volt gets about 35mpg on gas, the Priuses are up in the mid-50s in the same conditions.  However, since we plug in regularly, our actual fuel burn is about 25% what a Prius would burn for our driving (miles per gallon gas used since we got the car is up around 200 - it's not a straight up mpg comparison because it uses electricity).

I don't have anywhere to charge, I park on the street, but because I had a low income last year, I could get the CVAP, CCFR and CVRP, federal tax credit, plus trade-in value of my current car,  I think it would be chea[per to buy say a Niro PHEV than a Prius, Corolla Hybrid or Insight. Not sure though.

[nereo]

This fits here...
We bought a very gently used Honda Clarity when our Civic unexpectedly died. So far (two weeks in) I’m really impressed by the PHEV, and think it’s a good option for the overwhelming majority of drivers - particularly those who are in semi-rural areas like we are or who (legitimately or not) have ‘range anxiety’.

Our 17kWh battery pack gets in the high 40s before the engine kicks in, which covers my entire commute plus about 80% of other trips.  The ICE engine will allow us to longer trips where chargers are still few and far between (something we have to do semi-frequently for work and family).   Not particularly in love with the idea of having the ICE engine and added complexity, but it’ll be gently used (at the 100,000 mile mark we expect to have only ‘driven’ the ICE 10-15k).

One underappreciated advantage as I see it is that we get >80% of the benefit of a BEV but with a battery pack roughly 1/5 the size, and 1/5 the resources.

As I pointed out upthread, I’m seeing a number of ‘free’ L2 chargers at businesses in our small town, which we’ll utilize when Covid restrictions lift and after we get vaccinated. Currently we just use standard 110v at home and work, which can completely recharge the pack overnight or during a typical workday.

[BuffaloStache]

Thanks for running the numbers, Syonyk! There is a free charger that is ~20min walk from my house, which is definitely on my radar for when I get a BEV or PHEV (either is likely my next car).


Nereo- sorry to hear about your car dying, but glad you were able to get a PHEV! That's my current plan; drive my current cars (both ~15 years old) until they die, then replace with one BEV and either a PHEV or much more efficient ICE (which I'll use very infrequently thanks to increased working from home, even post-pandemic).

[pecunia]

GM has introduced a new version of the Bolt.  They call it an "EUV."  I looked through their literature and might have missed it but couldn't find what the acronym meant.  Is it just advertising BS?

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

McLaren Artura has just been unveiled and it looks drop-dead GORGEOUS; easily the nicest looking hybrid I've ever seen. The great thing about having hybrid propulsion is that the electric motor can be used to fill in while turbos spool up. I could learn to live with a hybrid EV future.

[Paper Chaser]

GM has introduced a new version of the Bolt.  They call it an "EUV."  I looked through their literature and might have missed it but couldn't find what the acronym meant.  Is it just advertising BS?

EUV = "Electric Utility Vehicle". So yes, just marketing BS. Compared to the standard Bolt, the EUV does get a little bit of extra length and rides just a little bit higher, but it's really just GM trying to convince buyers that it's not just the same old dorky Bolt with some plastic cladding and a very minor lift in order to justify juicier margins.

[MasterStache]

It's a sad day as my 2014 Leaf is leaving today (hopefully). It's been extremely reliable for the past 2.5 years. Only maintenance were tire rotation and air filter. Yeah we are a minivan family now, haha! My little side biz has exploded and it's increasingly difficult to haul all my tools around in the Leaf. Plus I needed something for sheet goods.

On a positive note I convinced my spouse to get rid of her Prius V in favor of a 2017 Volt. She was hesitant to go full on electric as we still take long road trips for my daughter's gymnastics competitions. This was a great compromise. She actually sold her Prius V for a bit more than she paid for it 1.5 years ago. And the Volt was cheaper so she came out ahead just on swapping cars. I can't believe how cheap some of the used EV and PHEVs are these days.

I think in a few years, as she winds down working and my body cannot handle anymore remodeling, we may buy a used hybrid van to travel in. We'll see. 

[RWD]

On a positive note I convinced my spouse to get rid of her Prius V in favor of a 2017 Volt. She was hesitant to go full on electric as we still take long road trips for my daughter's gymnastics competitions. This was a great compromise. She actually sold her Prius V for a bit more than she paid for it 1.5 years ago. And the Volt was cheaper so she came out ahead just on swapping cars. I can't believe how cheap some of the used EV and PHEVs are these days.

That sounds like a huge downgrade to me (other than the minor fuel savings). The Volt has less than a third of the cargo space and very cramped rear seats. Doesn't seem worth the switch unless you are doing a ton of city driving and don't need practicality.

[nereo]

McLaren Artura has just been unveiled and it looks drop-dead GORGEOUS; easily the nicest looking hybrid I've ever seen. T

meh... agree to disagree.  My first reaction is: Fish Bowl. There's something very spherical about the shape, that makes it seem like it's being squished from all sides.

[AlanStache]

McLaren Artura has just been unveiled and it looks drop-dead GORGEOUS; easily the nicest looking hybrid I've ever seen. T

meh... agree to disagree.  My first reaction is: Fish Bowl. There's something very spherical about the shape, that makes it seem like it's being squished from all sides.

To my eye it looks like every other super-exotic-hyper car.  But I am not the target buyer. 

[MasterStache]

On a positive note I convinced my spouse to get rid of her Prius V in favor of a 2017 Volt. She was hesitant to go full on electric as we still take long road trips for my daughter's gymnastics competitions. This was a great compromise. She actually sold her Prius V for a bit more than she paid for it 1.5 years ago. And the Volt was cheaper so she came out ahead just on swapping cars. I can't believe how cheap some of the used EV and PHEVs are these days.

That sounds like a huge downgrade to me (other than the minor fuel savings). The Volt has less than a third of the cargo space and very cramped rear seats. Doesn't seem worth the switch unless you are doing a ton of city driving and don't need practicality.

This strikes me as an odd response. The overwhelming majority of my spouse's commute is on city streets to and from work (roughly 28 miles round trip commute). I would guess roughly 95% of her driving to put a number on it. And again, we have a van now that is great on cargo space. So practically speaking, cargo space is a non-issue for our second car.

Fuel savings being "minor" is subjective. The Prius V only averaged 41 mpg for us. That's a gallon of gas saved every 1.5 days of commuting. Seems more practical for everyone to weigh their own lifestyle wants and needs when it comes to vehicles. If you desire 2 cars with massive cargo space, then that's your choice. It just doesn't make practical sense for us.

[nereo]

On a positive note I convinced my spouse to get rid of her Prius V in favor of a 2017 Volt. She was hesitant to go full on electric as we still take long road trips for my daughter's gymnastics competitions. This was a great compromise. She actually sold her Prius V for a bit more than she paid for it 1.5 years ago. And the Volt was cheaper so she came out ahead just on swapping cars. I can't believe how cheap some of the used EV and PHEVs are these days.

That sounds like a huge downgrade to me (other than the minor fuel savings). The Volt has less than a third of the cargo space and very cramped rear seats. Doesn't seem worth the switch unless you are doing a ton of city driving and don't need practicality.

This strikes me as an odd response. The overwhelming majority of my spouse's commute is on city streets to and from work (roughly 28 miles round trip commute). I would guess roughly 95% of her driving to put a number on it. And again, we have a van now that is great on cargo space. So practically speaking, cargo space is a non-issue for our second car.

Fuel savings being "minor" is subjective. The Prius V only averaged 41 mpg for us. That's a gallon of gas saved every 1.5 days of commuting. Seems more practical for everyone to weigh their own lifestyle wants and needs when it comes to vehicles. If you desire 2 cars with massive cargo space, then that's your choice. It just doesn't make practical sense for us.

If you can do most of the driving on the volt's battery and you don't need more space, the Volt could be a great car for you.  My parents have one and it's my mom's favorite car, ever. She buys gasoline once ever 3-4 months at a total cost of around $20.

Hope you enjoy it!

[RWD]

On a positive note I convinced my spouse to get rid of her Prius V in favor of a 2017 Volt. She was hesitant to go full on electric as we still take long road trips for my daughter's gymnastics competitions. This was a great compromise. She actually sold her Prius V for a bit more than she paid for it 1.5 years ago. And the Volt was cheaper so she came out ahead just on swapping cars. I can't believe how cheap some of the used EV and PHEVs are these days.

That sounds like a huge downgrade to me (other than the minor fuel savings). The Volt has less than a third of the cargo space and very cramped rear seats. Doesn't seem worth the switch unless you are doing a ton of city driving and don't need practicality.

This strikes me as an odd response. The overwhelming majority of my spouse's commute is on city streets to and from work (roughly 28 miles round trip commute). I would guess roughly 95% of her driving to put a number on it. And again, we have a van now that is great on cargo space. So practically speaking, cargo space is a non-issue for our second car.

Fuel savings being "minor" is subjective. The Prius V only averaged 41 mpg for us. That's a gallon of gas saved every 1.5 days of commuting. Seems more practical for everyone to weigh their own lifestyle wants and needs when it comes to vehicles. If you desire 2 cars with massive cargo space, then that's your choice. It just doesn't make practical sense for us.

Ah, I missed the mention of the minivan in your first post. Apologies. That eliminates the majority of practicality concerns. I also don't desire two large vehicles. Our larger vehicle is a Golf hatchback and smaller vehicle a 2-door sports car. Somehow both have significantly more cargo space than your Volt though...

Yes, I do think the fuel savings are minor. Only 41 mpg? That's already really good. At current gas prices it sounds like ~$440/year for your commuting. There's a good chance you paid more than that in sales tax just for swapping cars (depends on the state). Really pretty minor as far as vehicle expenses go. My non-gas vehicle expenses have been nearly an order of magnitude more than that (per car) averaged over the last nine years. Doesn't make a ton of sense to chase $$$ in fuel savings if that ends up costing $$$$ in depreciation, maintenance, etc.. In your case I think because the Volt was cheaper than the vehicle you replaced and you're driving a decent amount of miles it should be worth it financially.

[RWD]

McLaren Artura has just been unveiled and it looks drop-dead GORGEOUS; easily the nicest looking hybrid I've ever seen. T

meh... agree to disagree.  My first reaction is: Fish Bowl. There's something very spherical about the shape, that makes it seem like it's being squished from all sides.

To my eye it looks like every other super-exotic-hyper car.  But I am not the target buyer.

All the recent McLarens look about the same. The Artura looks like a cross between the McLaren 570S and the McLaren GT. Two cars that are already a little difficult to tell apart for the non-enthusiast. Personally I think only the McLaren P1 is truly striking.

[BicycleB]

Yes, I do think the fuel savings are minor. Only 41 mpg? That's already really good. At current gas prices it sounds like ~$440/year for your commuting. There's a good chance you paid more than that in sales tax just for swapping cars (depends on the state). Really pretty minor as far as vehicle expenses go. My non-gas vehicle expenses have been nearly an order of magnitude more than that (per car) averaged over the last nine years. Doesn't make a ton of sense to chase $$$ in fuel savings if that ends up costing $$$$ in depreciation, maintenance, etc.. In your case I think because the Volt was cheaper than the vehicle you replaced and you're driving a decent amount of miles it should be worth it financially.

Maybe @MasterStache values the reduced impact on climate change?

Personally intrigued bc my next car is tentatively likely to be PHEV for eco reasons; scouting ahead by reading threads like this. 95%+ short city trips, rare cargo carry; utility company assures me I'm getting 100% renewable electricity. No state subsidies, so hoping for a nice cheap used PHEV probably around '23 or '24.

[RWD]

Yes, I do think the fuel savings are minor. Only 41 mpg? That's already really good. At current gas prices it sounds like ~$440/year for your commuting. There's a good chance you paid more than that in sales tax just for swapping cars (depends on the state). Really pretty minor as far as vehicle expenses go. My non-gas vehicle expenses have been nearly an order of magnitude more than that (per car) averaged over the last nine years. Doesn't make a ton of sense to chase $$$ in fuel savings if that ends up costing $$$$ in depreciation, maintenance, etc.. In your case I think because the Volt was cheaper than the vehicle you replaced and you're driving a decent amount of miles it should be worth it financially.

Maybe @nereo values the reduced impact on climate change?

Personally intrigued bc my next car is tentatively likely to be PHEV for eco reasons; scouting ahead by reading threads like this. 95%+ short city trips, rare cargo carry; utility company assures me I'm getting 100% renewable electricity. No state subsidies, so hoping for a nice cheap used PHEV probably around '23 or '24.

It's MasterStache, not nereo, that got the Volt. For environmental impact that would be around ~175 gal/year fuel saved. The average American in the average car is using ~540 gal/year. So a good bit lower than average impact. Whether that is "minor" I guess does depend on the person's view.

I definitely want our next car to be electric, primarily for environmental reasons. But I'm in no rush because we're hardly driving. Over the last five years (since I stopped commuting) we've averaged ~70 gallons per year per person with traditional ICE vehicles.

[kenmoremmm]

are there any concerns with low annual mileage and electric cars?

i know with my prius, which we drive about 4k/yr, our 12v battery is suffering from premature failure presumably b/c of lack of use. is this the same on these other vehicle types?

[BicycleB]

Yes, I do think the fuel savings are minor. Only 41 mpg? That's already really good. At current gas prices it sounds like ~$440/year for your commuting. There's a good chance you paid more than that in sales tax just for swapping cars (depends on the state). Really pretty minor as far as vehicle expenses go. My non-gas vehicle expenses have been nearly an order of magnitude more than that (per car) averaged over the last nine years. Doesn't make a ton of sense to chase $$$ in fuel savings if that ends up costing $$$$ in depreciation, maintenance, etc.. In your case I think because the Volt was cheaper than the vehicle you replaced and you're driving a decent amount of miles it should be worth it financially.

Maybe @nereo values the reduced impact on climate change?

Personally intrigued bc my next car is tentatively likely to be PHEV for eco reasons; scouting ahead by reading threads like this. 95%+ short city trips, rare cargo carry; utility company assures me I'm getting 100% renewable electricity. No state subsidies, so hoping for a nice cheap used PHEV probably around '23 or '24.

It's MasterStache, not nereo, that got the Volt. For environmental impact that would be around ~175 gal/year fuel saved. The average American in the average car is using ~540 gal/year. So a good bit lower than average impact. Whether that is "minor" I guess does depend on the person's view.

I definitely want our next car to be electric, primarily for environmental reasons. But I'm in no rush because we're hardly driving. Over the last five years (since I stopped commuting) we've averaged ~70 gallons per year per person with traditional ICE vehicles.

Thanks; corrected. Apologies to both posters.

I agree minor is a judgment call. And concur that low driving is a great way to save gas/ reduce carbon emission; other techniques can only modify the remaining %.

(I use that approach myself. At 3000-5000 miles/year, do I want to take an efficient car out of someone else's hands? So far, meh, I'm doing 70% of the saving already. Maybe a bigger driver should have the good car.)

[RWD]

are there any concerns with low annual mileage and electric cars?

i know with my prius, which we drive about 4k/yr, our 12v battery is suffering from premature failure presumably b/c of lack of use. is this the same on these other vehicle types?

I imagine there are less issues with infrequent driving/low mileage on an electric car than a traditional ICE. You don't have to worry about gas going bad or oil absorbing moisture, for example. Less rubber hoses that can degrade as well.

As far as the 12v battery is concerned if you are driving infrequently (or always for short distances) you may consider getting a battery maintainer (smart trickle charger that shuts off when battery is fully charged). This will improve the longevity of your battery. For fully electric cars they also have a 12v battery though I would assume the built-in charger keeps that topped off as well. If you leave your EV unplugged for long/often enough that could also fully drain and/or have a reduced lifespan.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

McLaren Artura has just been unveiled and it looks drop-dead GORGEOUS; easily the nicest looking hybrid I've ever seen. T

meh... agree to disagree.  My first reaction is: Fish Bowl. There's something very spherical about the shape, that makes it seem like it's being squished from all sides.

To my eye it looks like every other super-exotic-hyper car.  But I am not the target buyer.

All the recent McLarens look about the same. The Artura looks like a cross between the McLaren 570S and the McLaren GT. Two cars that are already a little difficult to tell apart for the non-enthusiast. Personally I think only the McLaren P1 is truly striking.

I love the P1, and I think this looks something close to it. I agree they all look fundamentally similar.

It's exciting that McLaren has made a hybrid EV (with a heavy V6 engine) that is <1400 kilograms (<3300 pounds). Hopefully the weight saving flows onto other EV manufacturers soon. Would love to have more zippy, track suitable EVs/hybrids out there.

[American GenX]

I can't see giving up a gas engine anytime soon, but I would consider a hybrid if I was looking now.... but I'm not.

[nereo]

I can't see giving up a gas engine anytime soon, but I would consider a hybrid if I was looking now.... but I'm not.

Care to elaborate why... you know, to help further discussion?

[MasterStache]

On a positive note I convinced my spouse to get rid of her Prius V in favor of a 2017 Volt. She was hesitant to go full on electric as we still take long road trips for my daughter's gymnastics competitions. This was a great compromise. She actually sold her Prius V for a bit more than she paid for it 1.5 years ago. And the Volt was cheaper so she came out ahead just on swapping cars. I can't believe how cheap some of the used EV and PHEVs are these days.

That sounds like a huge downgrade to me (other than the minor fuel savings). The Volt has less than a third of the cargo space and very cramped rear seats. Doesn't seem worth the switch unless you are doing a ton of city driving and don't need practicality.

This strikes me as an odd response. The overwhelming majority of my spouse's commute is on city streets to and from work (roughly 28 miles round trip commute). I would guess roughly 95% of her driving to put a number on it. And again, we have a van now that is great on cargo space. So practically speaking, cargo space is a non-issue for our second car.

Fuel savings being "minor" is subjective. The Prius V only averaged 41 mpg for us. That's a gallon of gas saved every 1.5 days of commuting. Seems more practical for everyone to weigh their own lifestyle wants and needs when it comes to vehicles. If you desire 2 cars with massive cargo space, then that's your choice. It just doesn't make practical sense for us.

Ah, I missed the mention of the minivan in your first post. Apologies. That eliminates the majority of practicality concerns. I also don't desire two large vehicles. Our larger vehicle is a Golf hatchback and smaller vehicle a 2-door sports car. Somehow both have significantly more cargo space than your Volt though...

Yes, I do think the fuel savings are minor. Only 41 mpg? That's already really good. At current gas prices it sounds like ~$440/year for your commuting. There's a good chance you paid more than that in sales tax just for swapping cars (depends on the state). Really pretty minor as far as vehicle expenses go. My non-gas vehicle expenses have been nearly an order of magnitude more than that (per car) averaged over the last nine years. Doesn't make a ton of sense to chase $$$ in fuel savings if that ends up costing $$$$ in depreciation, maintenance, etc.. In your case I think because the Volt was cheaper than the vehicle you replaced and you're driving a decent amount of miles it should be worth it financially.

No problem. We did in fact consider cargo space. And yes the Volt has greatly reduced cargo space compared to the Prius V. But again, a non issue with the van. One thing my spouse really enjoys about fueling every once in a while is time. We accumulate fuel points but the grocery store isn't exactly on her way home. Every couple of weeks she is was making a special trip out on a Sunday night to make sure she is gassed up for the week. I don't mind, but she is quirky like that ( : 

Just to be clear we came out a couple hundred bucks ahead after taxes, title and fees are factored into the price. And the Volt has 10,000 less miles. It just seemed like a no brainer. I tried like hell to get her into a used Bolt. But she likes the peace of mind of having the gas backup. And we both absolutely love driving the Volt. 

[dignam]

I figured within my next 2-3 car purchases I'll have an EV.  Automakers are pouring $$ into R&D for EV (Ford, and now GM is starting to crank it up) so it's only a matter of time.

The only downside I can think of is I might miss the roar of a good sounding ICE, and shifting a manual.  But I can get over that.  Range and charging time will only improve.

[RWD]

I am personally very excited by the thought of being able to power my house during outages (definitely a relevant topic right now) with bi-directional charging from an electric car. Helps justify a bigger battery in a car if it can have a dual purpose.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/wallbox-quasar-bi-directional-ev-charger-america/

[YoungGranny]

We jumped into an EV for our new car. Had a 2-door Honda Civic with only 130k miles that we would've kept for probably close to another decade but with having a baby last summer and being a one-car family it was time to have a bit more room & 4 doors. Bought a Tesla Model 3.... since it's our only car & we bike most the time around the city we were looking for a car that could easily cover the 120mi (one way) to my aging in-laws (I mention because in an emergency we don't want to have to stop & charge) while also doubling as a road-trip car. If it was just a commuter car or we had an ICE as a second car we would have considered a used Leaf/Bolt a bit more. We take delivery in the next week or two and I'm excited to have voted with my dollars on an EV. 

I gotta say MI has made Teslas business model a little clunky here but not terrible to navigate and Teslas customer service, so far, has been top-notch.

[jrhampt]

I'd like a Prius Prime (plug in hybrid) for my next car, but I'm in no hurry right now either because I go weeks at a time without moving my car now due to the pandemic.

I do think 41 mpg (Prius V) is kind of low if you're going with a hybrid because there are non-hybrids that can match that.  My next car I want in the 50+ range.

[MasterStache]

I'd like a Prius Prime (plug in hybrid) for my next car, but I'm in no hurry right now either because I go weeks at a time without moving my car now due to the pandemic.

I do think 41 mpg (Prius V) is kind of low if you're going with a hybrid because there are non-hybrids that can match that.  My next car I want in the 50+ range.

I had a Honda Civic for 10 years that averaged about 35 mpg. Prius V isn't a great hybrid for daily commuting but great if you need some extra cargo space.

My brother purchased a Honda Clarity a few months ago. He absolutely loves it.   

[pecunia]

So - with all these new electric car brands coming on the market in the next few years, will there be price wars and then a market shakeup as some brands will leave?  It also seems like the battery technology is still evolving.  Is that a reason to wait a bit as well?  How will the electric car market look in say 5 years?

[RWD]

I'd like a Prius Prime (plug in hybrid) for my next car, but I'm in no hurry right now either because I go weeks at a time without moving my car now due to the pandemic.

I do think 41 mpg (Prius V) is kind of low if you're going with a hybrid because there are non-hybrids that can match that.  My next car I want in the 50+ range.

Because of the way the scale works there are diminishing returns the higher you go. Improving fuel economy from 14 mpg to 15 mpg is a better improvement (by gallons/dollars saved) than going from 41 mpg to 50 mpg. For comparing fuel economy numbers it is much more useful to look at gallons per 100 miles as that is a linear improvement scale. For example, going from 3 to 2 gal/100 mi (33.3 to 50 mpg) and going from 7 to 6 gal/100 mi (14.3 to 16.7 mpg) both save 1 gallon per 100 miles.

So if you replace a 2.44 gal/100 mi (41 mpg) vehicle with a 2.00 gal/100 mi (50 mpg) that's 0.44 gallons saved per 100 miles (nice easy math). Or 44 gallons per 10k miles.

[nereo]

I figured within my next 2-3 car purchases I'll have an EV.  Automakers are pouring $$ into R&D for EV (Ford, and now GM is starting to crank it up) so it's only a matter of time.

The only downside I can think of is I might miss the roar of a good sounding ICE, and shifting a manual.  But I can get over that.  Range and charging time will only improve.

Funny, lack of engine noise is a big pro in my book for BEVs,... especially when my neighbors but them :-)

What kind of range are you looking for?

[jrhampt]

I'd like a Prius Prime (plug in hybrid) for my next car, but I'm in no hurry right now either because I go weeks at a time without moving my car now due to the pandemic.

I do think 41 mpg (Prius V) is kind of low if you're going with a hybrid because there are non-hybrids that can match that.  My next car I want in the 50+ range.

Because of the way the scale works there are diminishing returns the higher you go. Improving fuel economy from 14 mpg to 15 mpg is a better improvement (by gallons/dollars saved) than going from 41 mpg to 50 mpg. For comparing fuel economy numbers it is much more useful to look at gallons per 100 miles as that is a linear improvement scale. For example, going from 3 to 2 gal/100 mi (33.3 to 50 mpg) and going from 7 to 6 gal/100 mi (14.3 to 16.7 mpg) both save 1 gallon per 100 miles.

So if you replace a 2.44 gal/100 mi (41 mpg) vehicle with a 2.00 gal/100 mi (50 mpg) that's 0.44 gallons saved per 100 miles (nice easy math). Or 44 gallons per 10k miles.

I just hate going to the gas station :-)

[dignam]

I figured within my next 2-3 car purchases I'll have an EV.  Automakers are pouring $$ into R&D for EV (Ford, and now GM is starting to crank it up) so it's only a matter of time.

The only downside I can think of is I might miss the roar of a good sounding ICE, and shifting a manual.  But I can get over that.  Range and charging time will only improve.

Funny, lack of engine noise is a big pro in my book for BEVs,... especially when my neighbors but them :-)

What kind of range are you looking for?

To clarify: noisy engines do not necessarily mean good sounding engines.  Most people who mod cars make them sound awful.  But when done right it can be music to the ears.

For range I think I would need over 300, but 350 to be safe.  I take several trips per year to NW Wisconsin where it is sparsely populated compared to southern half of the state.

[RWD]

I'd like a Prius Prime (plug in hybrid) for my next car, but I'm in no hurry right now either because I go weeks at a time without moving my car now due to the pandemic.

I do think 41 mpg (Prius V) is kind of low if you're going with a hybrid because there are non-hybrids that can match that.  My next car I want in the 50+ range.

Because of the way the scale works there are diminishing returns the higher you go. Improving fuel economy from 14 mpg to 15 mpg is a better improvement (by gallons/dollars saved) than going from 41 mpg to 50 mpg. For comparing fuel economy numbers it is much more useful to look at gallons per 100 miles as that is a linear improvement scale. For example, going from 3 to 2 gal/100 mi (33.3 to 50 mpg) and going from 7 to 6 gal/100 mi (14.3 to 16.7 mpg) both save 1 gallon per 100 miles.

So if you replace a 2.44 gal/100 mi (41 mpg) vehicle with a 2.00 gal/100 mi (50 mpg) that's 0.44 gallons saved per 100 miles (nice easy math). Or 44 gallons per 10k miles.

I just hate going to the gas station :-)

Buy a car with a big gas tank. ;)  Aside from pure electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles the gas tank size can overcome all for minimizing gas station visits. The 31 gallon (!!) fuel tank in a Chevy Suburban will out-range many hybrids.

[index]

We have had two Leafs. The second replaced the first which was totaled.

I figure the cost break down like this :

Jan. 2020 we bought a 2016 Leaf with 51,000 miles for $8800.
We have been driving about 6500 miles per year on the old leaf (2013) and electricity is $0.10 per KWh and the car averages about 3.8 miles per KWh so it costs around $170/yr to drive.

An equivalent used car at the time was a 2013 Kia Soul with 49,000 miles for $8800.  Combined fuel economy on the Soul was 26 mpg so 6500 miles costs about $625 at $2.50 a galon. Throw in one synthetic oil change a year at $45.

I figure I will drive the Leaf until the range is no longer useful to us and sell it for about $1500- estimated in 5 years. Over that 5 years I would estimate the Soul probably need $500 in maintenance over what the Leaf will take i.e. brakes, fluids, probably something unforeseen and a little expensive...

So over 5 years the Leaf saves around $2275 in gas, $500 in maintenance, and $225 in oil changes over the soul, but in 2025 the soul should be worth $3.5k while the leaf is only worth $1500.  So in the end the Leaf is maybe a little cheaper ~$1000, but overall it's not a huge difference. Yearly cost on the Leaf - $1635
Yearly cost on the Soul -  $1830

I would like to see the breakdown on how a Prius compares. When we were looking a ~$8800 Prius was a 2010 or 2011 with ~120k miles.  I was a little suspect because I thought there was a good change there was a $2500 - $3000 battery replacement in store before 2025 for a 9 to 10 year old prius.
 


 

[nereo]

I'd like a Prius Prime (plug in hybrid) for my next car, but I'm in no hurry right now either because I go weeks at a time without moving my car now due to the pandemic.

I do think 41 mpg (Prius V) is kind of low if you're going with a hybrid because there are non-hybrids that can match that.  My next car I want in the 50+ range.

Because of the way the scale works there are diminishing returns the higher you go. Improving fuel economy from 14 mpg to 15 mpg is a better improvement (by gallons/dollars saved) than going from 41 mpg to 50 mpg. For comparing fuel economy numbers it is much more useful to look at gallons per 100 miles as that is a linear improvement scale. For example, going from 3 to 2 gal/100 mi (33.3 to 50 mpg) and going from 7 to 6 gal/100 mi (14.3 to 16.7 mpg) both save 1 gallon per 100 miles.

So if you replace a 2.44 gal/100 mi (41 mpg) vehicle with a 2.00 gal/100 mi (50 mpg) that's 0.44 gallons saved per 100 miles (nice easy math). Or 44 gallons per 10k miles.

I just hate going to the gas station :-)

Buy a car with a big gas tank. ;)  Aside from pure electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles the gas tank size can overcome all for minimizing gas station visits. The 31 gallon (!!) fuel tank in a Chevy Suburban will out-range many hybrids.

It'll also trip a lot of filling stations whenever the cost of gasoline goes above $3.25/gallon...  Our work truck had a 42 gallon fuel tank and pumps constantly shut off at the $100 mark - we'd have to either go inside to request a re-set or visit two stations the same day to get a full tank.

FWIW the Ioniq PHEV can out-range a Suburban even with the 31 gallon tank, even with just one charge.  And I can easily get 1,000 miles between fuel-ups in my Clarity (with it's measily 7gal tank) if I drive < 50 miles a day and recharge overnight.

[RWD]

I just hate going to the gas station :-)

Buy a car with a big gas tank. ;)  Aside from pure electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles the gas tank size can overcome all for minimizing gas station visits. The 31 gallon (!!) fuel tank in a Chevy Suburban will out-range many hybrids.

It'll also trip a lot of filling stations whenever the cost of gasoline goes above $3.25/gallon...  Our work truck had a 42 gallon fuel tank and pumps constantly shut off at the $100 mark - we'd have to either go inside to request a re-set or visit two stations the same day to get a full tank.

Ah yes, I remember dealing with that when I drove a moving truck across the country 13 years ago. Obviously would be pretty annoying to deal with on a regular basis.

[jrhampt]

I'd like a Prius Prime (plug in hybrid) for my next car, but I'm in no hurry right now either because I go weeks at a time without moving my car now due to the pandemic.

I do think 41 mpg (Prius V) is kind of low if you're going with a hybrid because there are non-hybrids that can match that.  My next car I want in the 50+ range.

Because of the way the scale works there are diminishing returns the higher you go. Improving fuel economy from 14 mpg to 15 mpg is a better improvement (by gallons/dollars saved) than going from 41 mpg to 50 mpg. For comparing fuel economy numbers it is much more useful to look at gallons per 100 miles as that is a linear improvement scale. For example, going from 3 to 2 gal/100 mi (33.3 to 50 mpg) and going from 7 to 6 gal/100 mi (14.3 to 16.7 mpg) both save 1 gallon per 100 miles.

So if you replace a 2.44 gal/100 mi (41 mpg) vehicle with a 2.00 gal/100 mi (50 mpg) that's 0.44 gallons saved per 100 miles (nice easy math). Or 44 gallons per 10k miles.

I just hate going to the gas station :-)

Buy a car with a big gas tank. ;)  Aside from pure electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles the gas tank size can overcome all for minimizing gas station visits. The 31 gallon (!!) fuel tank in a Chevy Suburban will out-range many hybrids.

Sweet merciful!! Yeah, I neither want nor need that much car.

[jrhampt]

We have had two Leafs. The second replaced the first which was totaled.

I figure the cost break down like this :

Jan. 2020 we bought a 2016 Leaf with 51,000 miles for $8800.
We have been driving about 6500 miles per year on the old leaf (2013) and electricity is $0.10 per KWh and the car averages about 3.8 miles per KWh so it costs around $170/yr to drive.

An equivalent used car at the time was a 2013 Kia Soul with 49,000 miles for $8800.  Combined fuel economy on the Soul was 26 mpg so 6500 miles costs about $625 at $2.50 a galon. Throw in one synthetic oil change a year at $45.

I figure I will drive the Leaf until the range is no longer useful to us and sell it for about $1500- estimated in 5 years. Over that 5 years I would estimate the Soul probably need $500 in maintenance over what the Leaf will take i.e. brakes, fluids, probably something unforeseen and a little expensive...

So over 5 years the Leaf saves around $2275 in gas, $500 in maintenance, and $225 in oil changes over the soul, but in 2025 the soul should be worth $3.5k while the leaf is only worth $1500.  So in the end the Leaf is maybe a little cheaper ~$1000, but overall it's not a huge difference. Yearly cost on the Leaf - $1635
Yearly cost on the Soul -  $1830

I would like to see the breakdown on how a Prius compares. When we were looking a ~$8800 Prius was a 2010 or 2011 with ~120k miles.  I was a little suspect because I thought there was a good change there was a $2500 - $3000 battery replacement in store before 2025 for a 9 to 10 year old prius.

I've seen a couple of 2017 prius primes in my area for around 16k recently, with less than 20k miles.  Not too bad.

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

I figured within my next 2-3 car purchases I'll have an EV.  Automakers are pouring $$ into R&D for EV (Ford, and now GM is starting to crank it up) so it's only a matter of time.

The only downside I can think of is I might miss the roar of a good sounding ICE, and shifting a manual.  But I can get over that.  Range and charging time will only improve.

Funny, lack of engine noise is a big pro in my book for BEVs,... especially when my neighbors but them :-)

What kind of range are you looking for?

To clarify: noisy engines do not necessarily mean good sounding engines.  Most people who mod cars make them sound awful.  But when done right it can be music to the ears.

For range I think I would need over 300, but 350 to be safe.  I take several trips per year to NW Wisconsin where it is sparsely populated compared to southern half of the state.

Yes, most noisy engines are awful, but a good v10 or v12 sounds amazing.

[nereo]

I figured within my next 2-3 car purchases I'll have an EV.  Automakers are pouring $$ into R&D for EV (Ford, and now GM is starting to crank it up) so it's only a matter of time.

The only downside I can think of is I might miss the roar of a good sounding ICE, and shifting a manual.  But I can get over that.  Range and charging time will only improve.

Funny, lack of engine noise is a big pro in my book for BEVs,... especially when my neighbors but them :-)

What kind of range are you looking for?

To clarify: noisy engines do not necessarily mean good sounding engines.  Most people who mod cars make them sound awful.  But when done right it can be music to the ears.

For range I think I would need over 300, but 350 to be safe.  I take several trips per year to NW Wisconsin where it is sparsely populated compared to southern half of the state.

Yes, most noisy engines are awful, but a good v10 or v12 sounds amazing.

Again, agree to disagree.  I'm fully aware of the difference between a well-tuned engine vs one that's just loud, but unlike some I've never enjoyed the sound of someone else's engine (or even my own... though who pines for the sounds of a japanese econo-car, anyway?).  Even the nicest, best tuned big-block engine cruising down my street isn't a pleasant sound.
To me they are just relics of previous era which should be engineered away. But that's just me. Give me near-silence any day.

[dandarc]

The fatal flaw in that terrible Kevin James / Vince Vaughn movie from 10-15 years ago. "Engine sound" was never a thing holding back electric cars, and yet that's what these two business partners were selling in that story.

[Chris22]

I figured within my next 2-3 car purchases I'll have an EV.  Automakers are pouring $$ into R&D for EV (Ford, and now GM is starting to crank it up) so it's only a matter of time.

The only downside I can think of is I might miss the roar of a good sounding ICE, and shifting a manual.  But I can get over that.  Range and charging time will only improve.

Funny, lack of engine noise is a big pro in my book for BEVs,... especially when my neighbors but them :-)

What kind of range are you looking for?

To clarify: noisy engines do not necessarily mean good sounding engines.  Most people who mod cars make them sound awful.  But when done right it can be music to the ears.

For range I think I would need over 300, but 350 to be safe.  I take several trips per year to NW Wisconsin where it is sparsely populated compared to southern half of the state.

Agree. In my sports car (S2000), the engine noise screaming at 9000rpm is absolutely part of the experience, and wonderful (stock exhaust, not particularly loud but awesome sound).  In my Jeep, the engine note is nothing special and I wouldn’t be missing anything without it.

Incidentally, they now offer a plug-in hybrid Wrangler, which I would absolutely love; it has ~25 miles of plug in range and then a regular gas engine for long trips (I drive ~350 miles one way to our cabin monthly or more).  I would be all-electric all the time except those cabin trips.  Unfortunately, it’s about $10k more than a gas version, and leases out about $200/mo more. Plus it would probably cost me at least a grand to run a 220 outlet to my detached garage, even as a DIY (materials/renting equipment to dig the trench, permits, etc).  Part of the reason for the cost increase is they only offer the PHEV in the top trim levels versus the lower one I will otherwise get.  I bet in 3-5 years a PHEV will make more sense in terms of packaging/economics and I will probably get one.

[Paper Chaser]

Incidentally, they now offer a plug-in hybrid Wrangler, which I would absolutely love; it has ~25 miles of plug in range and then a regular gas engine for long trips (I drive ~350 miles one way to our cabin monthly or more).  I would be all-electric all the time except those cabin trips.  Unfortunately, it’s about $10k more than a gas version, and leases out about $200/mo more. Plus it would probably cost me at least a grand to run a 220 outlet to my detached garage, even as a DIY (materials/renting equipment to dig the trench, permits, etc).  Part of the reason for the cost increase is they only offer the PHEV in the top trim levels versus the lower one I will otherwise get.  I bet in 3-5 years a PHEV will make more sense in terms of packaging/economics and I will probably get one.

You really don't need a level 2 charger with a PHEV unless you want it to charge quickly. In most cases, a standard 110 outlet can add about 4 miles of range per hour of charging. A PHEV with 25 miles of range would charge fully in about 6 hours. 220 will cut that time down significantly, but that's really only beneficial if you're making frequent trips where you'll want as much EV range as possible. The faster charging will increase heat in the battery too which can have negative effects on long term battery health. Most PHEV owners can get by just fine with 110.

[Chris22]

Incidentally, they now offer a plug-in hybrid Wrangler, which I would absolutely love; it has ~25 miles of plug in range and then a regular gas engine for long trips (I drive ~350 miles one way to our cabin monthly or more).  I would be all-electric all the time except those cabin trips.  Unfortunately, it’s about $10k more than a gas version, and leases out about $200/mo more. Plus it would probably cost me at least a grand to run a 220 outlet to my detached garage, even as a DIY (materials/renting equipment to dig the trench, permits, etc).  Part of the reason for the cost increase is they only offer the PHEV in the top trim levels versus the lower one I will otherwise get.  I bet in 3-5 years a PHEV will make more sense in terms of packaging/economics and I will probably get one.

You really don't need a level 2 charger with a PHEV unless you want it to charge quickly. In most cases, a standard 110 outlet can add about 4 miles of range per hour of charging. A PHEV with 25 miles of range would charge fully in about 6 hours. 220 will cut that time down significantly, but that's really only beneficial if you're making frequent trips where you'll want as much EV range as possible. The faster charging will increase heat in the battery too which can have negative effects on long term battery health. Most PHEV owners can get by just fine with 110.

Fair point. I was thinking about my time with a Tesla Model X I had for a weekend; that wouldn’t charge for shit on 110, but it had a much bigger battery.

I still need a 220 out there eventually, but probably not for a PHEV Jeep.

FWIW, after I wrote that post, I went on HomeDepot.com to validate my $1k theory; 500’ of 1/0 gauge was $1100. 500’ is probably the low end of what I need, I was thinking 600 (200 x 3).  Yikes.

[nereo]

Just two data-points; we have a PHEV as do our parents, and we’ve done just fine on a standard 110v outlet.  I plug it  in in the evening and it’s fully charge by the time I head out the door around 7am (in reality it finishes charging most nights sometime between 3-4am depending on when I get home). 

If you drive less than ~40mi a day and can charge nightly a L2 isn’t critical.

[Abe]

Same for me. I think I filled my cars tank up since the fall, but probably not. I drive 6 miles a day for 4 days and 60 for one (use gas on the way back since there isn’t a charger or electrical outlet at that garage).

[pecunia]

I may have asked this before.  If you own a plug in hybrid and only do short trips so that you do not burn any gasoline, can it go bad in the similar way the gas can go bad sitting in your lawn mower over a Winter season?

[nereo]

I may have asked this before.  If you own a plug in hybrid and only do short trips so that you do not burn any gasoline, can it go bad in the similar way the gas can go bad sitting in your lawn mower over a Winter season?

The Cars computer will activate the engine periodically to prevent this. On mine i believe it will start using the gasoline engine a lot more if you haven’t refueled in 6 months, and the engine kicks on for a couple minutes every week.  My parents, who drive less than i do and almost never take their Volt on long trips, simply buy only a few gallons at a time a couple times each year.

[talltexan]

I see Subarus all the time.  I rarely see a Tesla.  I don't really notice BMWs.

Subaru is supposed to begin selling electric cars in 2021.  I believe I will see more Subaru electric vehicles than Tesla because there are more Subaru dealerships.

Whenever a driver cuts me off or speeds by me in a dangerous way, it sure seems like that one is a BMW. Only time I really notice them.