Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[Paper Chaser]

It's classified the same here in the US (both the Kona and Niro are "crossover SUV).  I'm not sure I understand why you are talking about killing 6 children, can you explain?
The Hyundai Kona nad Kira Niro are built on the same platform, and the two companies are "sister companies", sharing parts, design and manufacturing.

Maybe this is what they are talking about with the killing reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo

Bigger vehicle, worse spatial awareness for small things in front of the vehicle.

I meant something like this:

https://media.nbcwashington.com/2022/07/frontovers-6.jpg?quality=85&strip=all&resize=1200%2C675

Only the kid with the red shirt (Star Treck fans: ironically) is visible for the driver. And with those extra-hight wheels on a Ford 250 it's 12 kids standing you aren't seeing. Or smaller adults for that matter.

Are you seriously saying a Kia Niro with it's sloped nose and more than a foot less total height is the same kid-killer as a Suburban/Yukon? Absurd.

Well - Maybe you'd only kill half the kids.  It would be odd if safety forces some car companies to offer cars again.  Safer and better mileage.

The Kia Niro is 174" long, 71.9" wide, and 60.8" tall. It weighs between 3,071-3,247lbs.
The Chevy Malibu (a mid-size sedan) is 194.2" long, 73" wide, and 57.3" tall. It weighs between 3,126-3223lbs.

Compared to the Malibu the Niro has more head room front and rear, equal or more legroom front and rear, 45% more cargo space with the rear seats up and with the rear seats down the Niro offers more than 4 times the cargo space of the Malibu. Oh, and the Niro gets 50+ mpg combined while the Malibu gets 30mpg combined.

[nereo]

It's classified the same here in the US (both the Kona and Niro are "crossover SUV).  I'm not sure I understand why you are talking about killing 6 children, can you explain?
The Hyundai Kona nad Kira Niro are built on the same platform, and the two companies are "sister companies", sharing parts, design and manufacturing.

Maybe this is what they are talking about with the killing reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo

Bigger vehicle, worse spatial awareness for small things in front of the vehicle.

I meant something like this:

https://media.nbcwashington.com/2022/07/frontovers-6.jpg?quality=85&strip=all&resize=1200%2C675

Only the kid with the red shirt (Star Treck fans: ironically) is visible for the driver. And with those extra-hight wheels on a Ford 250 it's 12 kids standing you aren't seeing. Or smaller adults for that matter.

Are you seriously saying a Kia Niro with it's sloped nose and more than a foot less total height is the same kid-killer as a Suburban/Yukon? Absurd.

Well - Maybe you'd only kill half the kids.  It would be odd if safety forces some car companies to offer cars again.  Safer and better mileage.

The Kia Niro is 174" long, 71.9" wide, and 60.8" tall. It weighs between 3,071-3,247lbs.
The Chevy Malibu (a mid-size sedan) is 194.2" long, 73" wide, and 57.3" tall. It weighs between 3,126-3223lbs.

Compared to the Malibu the Niro has more head room front and rear, equal or more legroom front and rear, 45% more cargo space with the rear seats up and with the rear seats down the Niro offers more than 4 times the cargo space of the Malibu. Oh, and the Niro gets 50+ mpg combined while the Malibu gets 30mpg combined.

Yes, this is where I’m getting lost in the discussion - why is the Niro being equated to full-sized SUVs and pickups in regards to visibility of small pedestrians?  I’ve driven both and they are nothing alike

[JLee]

It's classified the same here in the US (both the Kona and Niro are "crossover SUV).  I'm not sure I understand why you are talking about killing 6 children, can you explain?
The Hyundai Kona nad Kira Niro are built on the same platform, and the two companies are "sister companies", sharing parts, design and manufacturing.

Maybe this is what they are talking about with the killing reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo

Bigger vehicle, worse spatial awareness for small things in front of the vehicle.

I meant something like this:

https://media.nbcwashington.com/2022/07/frontovers-6.jpg?quality=85&strip=all&resize=1200%2C675

Only the kid with the red shirt (Star Treck fans: ironically) is visible for the driver. And with those extra-hight wheels on a Ford 250 it's 12 kids standing you aren't seeing. Or smaller adults for that matter.

Are you seriously saying a Kia Niro with it's sloped nose and more than a foot less total height is the same kid-killer as a Suburban/Yukon? Absurd.

Well - Maybe you'd only kill half the kids.  It would be odd if safety forces some car companies to offer cars again.  Safer and better mileage.

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/rivian/r1t-crew-cab-pickup/2023#front-crash-prevention-vehicle-to-pedestrian-day

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/volkswagen/jetta-4-door-sedan/2023#front-crash-prevention-vehicle-to-pedestrian-day

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/chevrolet/malibu-4-door-sedan/2023#front-crash-prevention-vehicle-to-pedestrian-day

[nereo]

TIL - the Rivian R1T Crew has a curb weight of over 7k#.

[Tyson]

Tesla Model Y just became the #1 selling car in the world this past quarter.   Not best selling BEV.  Best selling car of any type:

https://www.motor1.com/news/669135/tesla-model-y-worlds-best-selling-car-q1-2023/

[pecunia]

Tesla Model Y just became the #1 selling car in the world this past quarter.   Not best selling BEV.  Best selling car of any type:

https://www.motor1.com/news/669135/tesla-model-y-worlds-best-selling-car-q1-2023/

You'd think the traditional American car companies would have the sense to simply copy them rather than to all compete with electric pickup trucks.

[GilesMM]

This article resonates with me.  This is essentially the first go at EV for most manufacturers and the first battery attempt.    We have a long way to go.  But I'm not sure what he meant about trucks as I saw a Tesla Truck with a full 40' load roaring down I-5 last week.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/electric-vehicles-early-adopter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson

[JLee]

Tesla Model Y just became the #1 selling car in the world this past quarter.   Not best selling BEV.  Best selling car of any type:

https://www.motor1.com/news/669135/tesla-model-y-worlds-best-selling-car-q1-2023/

You'd think the traditional American car companies would have the sense to simply copy them rather than to all compete with electric pickup trucks.

The only traditional American car company with an EV pickup actually on the market is Ford, and they've been selling the Mach-E since December 2020.  They also have a plug-in hybrid Escape.

[RWD]

This article resonates with me.

That might be confirmation bias.

[Paper Chaser]

Tesla Model Y just became the #1 selling car in the world this past quarter.   Not best selling BEV.  Best selling car of any type:

https://www.motor1.com/news/669135/tesla-model-y-worlds-best-selling-car-q1-2023/

You'd think the traditional American car companies would have the sense to simply copy them rather than to all compete with electric pickup trucks.

Model Y is the best selling vehicle globally, but not in the US. Trucks still outsell it in the US.

And as mentioned, Ford has been selling the Mach E for a couple of years now. Cadillac is selling the Lyriq crossover, and Chevy has the EV Equinox and Blazer CUVs coming to market this year.

[Paper Chaser]

But I'm not sure what he meant about trucks as I saw a Tesla Truck with a full 40' load roaring down I-5 last week.

Hard work drains batteries very quickly. This is true for a Tesla Model 3 around a racetrack, it's true for heavy equipment like JCB mentioned in the article, and it's true for vehicles that tow long distances. EVs can and do excel at these types of work, but run out of juice faster than their ICE counterparts, and then have to sit idle for recharging.

A Tesla semi (and other EV semis from legacy truck makers) can work very well for (relatively) short distances. Short delivery routes, regional hauls, etc are the ideal duty cycle for these vehicles. But batteries are currently a bad fit for any vehicle that needs to work hard for more than a couple of hours at a time. Or anything that's weight sensitive.

It's similar to the reason that diesel has been the primary fuel for these hard working jobs for the last 100 years, but never gained a significant foothold in other vehicle segments. I think that moving forward we'll see hydrogen generally be the "diesel" equivalent used for heavy duty work, while batteries will be used in lighter duty applications that gasoline has historically serviced.

[pecunia]

Tesla Model Y just became the #1 selling car in the world this past quarter.   Not best selling BEV.  Best selling car of any type:

https://www.motor1.com/news/669135/tesla-model-y-worlds-best-selling-car-q1-2023/

You'd think the traditional American car companies would have the sense to simply copy them rather than to all compete with electric pickup trucks.

Model Y is the best selling vehicle globally, but not in the US. Trucks still outsell it in the US.

And as mentioned, Ford has been selling the Mach E for a couple of years now. Cadillac is selling the Lyriq crossover, and Chevy has the EV Equinox and Blazer CUVs coming to market this year.

All Teslas I've seen look like cars.  Although, they weren't trucks.  I admit I haven't looked into the new American manufacturer's  models, but they all sound like SUVs.  Would a normal car really not sell?  It seems as though a car would be the most practical to get from point A to point B.  It seems as though less mass would be hauled.  I guess I just miss my Ford Focus a bit.  Three and a half years ago I decided to buy a new car only they no longer existed at the Ford dealership.  I was told they weren't wanted by people.  I kind of thought I was being told what I should want.  I don't want an electric SUV.

[TomTX]

Tesla Model Y just became the #1 selling car in the world this past quarter.   Not best selling BEV.  Best selling car of any type:

https://www.motor1.com/news/669135/tesla-model-y-worlds-best-selling-car-q1-2023/

It would be an even bigger lead if they combined the Model 3 and Model Y like they do with multiple body styles of Corolla.

[GilesMM]

But I'm not sure what he meant about trucks as I saw a Tesla Truck with a full 40' load roaring down I-5 last week.

Hard work drains batteries very quickly. This is true for a Tesla Model 3 around a racetrack, it's true for heavy equipment like JCB mentioned in the article, and it's true for vehicles that tow long distances. EVs can and do excel at these types of work, but run out of juice faster than their ICE counterparts, and then have to sit idle for recharging.

A Tesla semi (and other EV semis from legacy truck makers) can work very well for (relatively) short distances. Short delivery routes, regional hauls, etc are the ideal duty cycle for these vehicles. But batteries are currently a bad fit for any vehicle that needs to work hard for more than a couple of hours at a time. Or anything that's weight sensitive.

It's similar to the reason that diesel has been the primary fuel for these hard working jobs for the last 100 years, but never gained a significant foothold in other vehicle segments. I think that moving forward we'll see hydrogen generally be the "diesel" equivalent used for heavy duty work, while batteries will be used in lighter duty applications that gasoline has historically serviced.

The semis have a range up to 500 miles and 30 minute recharging.  I saw one roaring up the Siskyou Pass passing the oil burners right and left.

[Just Joe]

All Teslas I've seen look like cars.  Although, they weren't trucks.  I admit I haven't looked into the new American manufacturer's  models, but they all sound like SUVs.  Would a normal car really not sell?  It seems as though a car would be the most practical to get from point A to point B.  It seems as though less mass would be hauled.  I guess I just miss my Ford Focus a bit.  Three and a half years ago I decided to buy a new car only they no longer existed at the Ford dealership.  I was told they weren't wanted by people.  I kind of thought I was being told what I should want.  I don't want an electric SUV.

I feel the same way. What can be done though?

As an odd duck I'm always going to be choosing from markets dictated by the average consumer who replaces their vehicle often and is okay with payments. They want trendy marketing. They don't maintain their vehicle - either leaving that to a shop or just not maintaining them at all. That's the markets we get to choose from. Right now that means big, fancy and expensive. What I want is 1990s affordable basic - heat/air/knobs/reasonable size. Perhaps better NVH.

The "perfect" car for us would be an electric version of our 1990s CRV. No sci-fi styling. 250 miles range. Heat and air. Our range needs are modest but the battery would essentially never degrade lower than our local needs. I guess I need access to 3rd world countries where they sell essentially the same vehicles for 40 years. ;)

Big and fancy is great on road trips. Not as appealing when I just need to grab a few groceries or do a quick trip to the hardware store. Then fancy is a liability in my opinion.

[Paper Chaser]

Tesla Model Y just became the #1 selling car in the world this past quarter.   Not best selling BEV.  Best selling car of any type:

https://www.motor1.com/news/669135/tesla-model-y-worlds-best-selling-car-q1-2023/

You'd think the traditional American car companies would have the sense to simply copy them rather than to all compete with electric pickup trucks.

Model Y is the best selling vehicle globally, but not in the US. Trucks still outsell it in the US.

And as mentioned, Ford has been selling the Mach E for a couple of years now. Cadillac is selling the Lyriq crossover, and Chevy has the EV Equinox and Blazer CUVs coming to market this year.

All Teslas I've seen look like cars.  Although, they weren't trucks.  I admit I haven't looked into the new American manufacturer's  models, but they all sound like SUVs.  Would a normal car really not sell?  It seems as though a car would be the most practical to get from point A to point B.  It seems as though less mass would be hauled.  I guess I just miss my Ford Focus a bit.  Three and a half years ago I decided to buy a new car only they no longer existed at the Ford dealership.  I was told they weren't wanted by people.  I kind of thought I was being told what I should want.  I don't want an electric SUV.

2 of the 4 Tesla models are Crossover CUVs (Model X and Model Y):


The Tesla Model Y, which is now the best selling vehicle in the world, is a CUV that competes directly with the others mentioned as well as the VW ID.4, Hyundai Ionic 5 and others.

If you want a small hatchback like your old Focus, the Chevy Bolt is the least expensive EV available in the US, and there's the Nissan Leaf too.

[2sk22]

The "perfect" car for us would be an electric version of our 1990s CRV. No sci-fi styling. 250 miles range. Heat and air. Our range needs are modest but the battery would essentially never degrade lower than our local needs. I guess I need access to 3rd world countries where they sell essentially the same vehicles for 40 years. ;)

Big and fancy is great on road trips. Not as appealing when I just need to grab a few groceries or do a quick trip to the hardware store. Then fancy is a liability in my opinion.

Are we the same person? :-) I bought a 2021 Honda CR-V a couple of years ago and I find that it's just about the perfect vehicle for my needs. I was thinking recently that if Honda made an electric version of my specific car, I would sign up for it right away.

But in any case, I expect to keep this car for many years so no EVs in the future for me. When the time comes for me to buy an EV it will not be a Tesla. Musk has made Tesla such a toxic brand, that I will never buy a Tesla as long as he is associated with that company in any way.

[Paper Chaser]

But I'm not sure what he meant about trucks as I saw a Tesla Truck with a full 40' load roaring down I-5 last week.

Hard work drains batteries very quickly. This is true for a Tesla Model 3 around a racetrack, it's true for heavy equipment like JCB mentioned in the article, and it's true for vehicles that tow long distances. EVs can and do excel at these types of work, but run out of juice faster than their ICE counterparts, and then have to sit idle for recharging.

A Tesla semi (and other EV semis from legacy truck makers) can work very well for (relatively) short distances. Short delivery routes, regional hauls, etc are the ideal duty cycle for these vehicles. But batteries are currently a bad fit for any vehicle that needs to work hard for more than a couple of hours at a time. Or anything that's weight sensitive.

It's similar to the reason that diesel has been the primary fuel for these hard working jobs for the last 100 years, but never gained a significant foothold in other vehicle segments. I think that moving forward we'll see hydrogen generally be the "diesel" equivalent used for heavy duty work, while batteries will be used in lighter duty applications that gasoline has historically serviced.

The semis have a range up to 500 miles and 30 minute recharging.  I saw one roaring up the Siskyou Pass passing the oil burners right and left.

Yeah. The Tesla semi (as currently configured) is a 500 mile Day cab. There's no sleeper, and a single seat. It's meant to start and finish it's day in the same place, charge over night, and do it again the next day.
500 miles is an oddball range for that duty cycle in my opinion. It's probably quite a bit more than what is needed for most regional loads. Musk said at the original Semi reveal in 2017 that 80% of semi loads are 250 miles or less, and most of the EV semis from legacy semi companies are closer to that distance than the 500 mile Tesla. That means that many Tesla semi buyers pay for excess battery capacity they aren't likely to use, and the truck is heavier than it might otherwise need to be too. But 500 miles of range is also quite a bit less than an OTR trucker drives in a regular shift too, which hurts freight efficiency and makes it difficult for the Tesla semi to pencil out for long haul trucking.

At one point there were rumors of a shorter distance Tesla semi. Something in the 300-350 mile range. I think that would be more appealing to most fleets as it would be both cheaper up front and lighter weight.

[nereo]

But I'm not sure what he meant about trucks as I saw a Tesla Truck with a full 40' load roaring down I-5 last week.

Hard work drains batteries very quickly. This is true for a Tesla Model 3 around a racetrack, it's true for heavy equipment like JCB mentioned in the article, and it's true for vehicles that tow long distances. EVs can and do excel at these types of work, but run out of juice faster than their ICE counterparts, and then have to sit idle for recharging.

A Tesla semi (and other EV semis from legacy truck makers) can work very well for (relatively) short distances. Short delivery routes, regional hauls, etc are the ideal duty cycle for these vehicles. But batteries are currently a bad fit for any vehicle that needs to work hard for more than a couple of hours at a time. Or anything that's weight sensitive.

It's similar to the reason that diesel has been the primary fuel for these hard working jobs for the last 100 years, but never gained a significant foothold in other vehicle segments. I think that moving forward we'll see hydrogen generally be the "diesel" equivalent used for heavy duty work, while batteries will be used in lighter duty applications that gasoline has historically serviced.

The semis have a range up to 500 miles and 30 minute recharging.  I saw one roaring up the Siskyou Pass passing the oil burners right and left.

That type of recharging requires DCFC (aka 'Level 3' or Supercharger), and AFAIK the 30 minute recharging times are for the much smaller battery packs found in their passenger cars, such as the 100kw in their model S.  The longer range Semis have a pack that's 5x bigger (500kw) and while they technically can take 1MW, that network is limited to a few nodes.  Even at peak 1MW DC the 80% recharge time is closer to two hours - if it's a cool day.

Even Tesla says such frequent 'Megacharging' (their moniker for 'beyond 400kw DCFC') should be avoided as a daily practice due to battery degradation, so there's that as well.

As @Paper Chaser said - their optimal 'use cases' are still local and regional routes with reliable overnight L2 charging.  Real use reports have their loaded range over hilly terrain closer to the 400mi mark, plus the weight of that battery eats into their load capacity.

[GilesMM]

But I'm not sure what he meant about trucks as I saw a Tesla Truck with a full 40' load roaring down I-5 last week.

Hard work drains batteries very quickly. This is true for a Tesla Model 3 around a racetrack, it's true for heavy equipment like JCB mentioned in the article, and it's true for vehicles that tow long distances. EVs can and do excel at these types of work, but run out of juice faster than their ICE counterparts, and then have to sit idle for recharging.

A Tesla semi (and other EV semis from legacy truck makers) can work very well for (relatively) short distances. Short delivery routes, regional hauls, etc are the ideal duty cycle for these vehicles. But batteries are currently a bad fit for any vehicle that needs to work hard for more than a couple of hours at a time. Or anything that's weight sensitive.

It's similar to the reason that diesel has been the primary fuel for these hard working jobs for the last 100 years, but never gained a significant foothold in other vehicle segments. I think that moving forward we'll see hydrogen generally be the "diesel" equivalent used for heavy duty work, while batteries will be used in lighter duty applications that gasoline has historically serviced.

The semis have a range up to 500 miles and 30 minute recharging.  I saw one roaring up the Siskyou Pass passing the oil burners right and left.

That type of recharging requires DCFC (aka 'Level 3' or Supercharger), and AFAIK the 30 minute recharging times are for the much smaller battery packs found in their passenger cars, such as the 100kw in their model S.  The longer range Semis have a pack that's 5x bigger (500kw) and while they technically can take 1MW, that network is limited to a few nodes.  Even at peak 1MW DC the 80% recharge time is closer to two hours - if it's a cool day.

Even Tesla says such frequent 'Megacharging' (their moniker for 'beyond 400kw DCFC') should be avoided as a daily practice due to battery degradation, so there's that as well.

As @Paper Chaser said - their optimal 'use cases' are still local and regional routes with reliable overnight L2 charging.  Real use reports have their loaded range over hilly terrain closer to the 400mi mark, plus the weight of that battery eats into their load capacity.

This describes the charger for the Frito Lay truck I saw last week.


https://www.teslaoracle.com/2023/02/03/tesla-semi-750-kw-dedicated-charging-station-charge-port-and-connector-spotted-in-new-pictures-from-the-frito-lay-parking-lot/

[nereo]

Yup. Frito-Lay is one of the early use cases. They even talk publicly about how the trucks are for regional routes and how much the range drops when they are tucking heavy cases of soda.

[jrhampt]

The "perfect" car for us would be an electric version of our 1990s CRV. No sci-fi styling. 250 miles range. Heat and air. Our range needs are modest but the battery would essentially never degrade lower than our local needs. I guess I need access to 3rd world countries where they sell essentially the same vehicles for 40 years. ;)

Big and fancy is great on road trips. Not as appealing when I just need to grab a few groceries or do a quick trip to the hardware store. Then fancy is a liability in my opinion.

Are we the same person? :-) I bought a 2021 Honda CR-V a couple of years ago and I find that it's just about the perfect vehicle for my needs. I was thinking recently that if Honda made an electric version of my specific car, I would sign up for it right away.

But in any case, I expect to keep this car for many years so no EVs in the future for me. When the time comes for me to buy an EV it will not be a Tesla. Musk has made Tesla such a toxic brand, that I will never buy a Tesla as long as he is associated with that company in any way.

We ended up getting a Honda CRV hybrid and are enjoying it so far.  Apparently they are coming out with a plug-in version this year, too.  So CRV fans may want to keep an eye on that (although we won't be needing one for hopefully many years).

[dang1]

Electric car battery swapping gets a reboot https://www.axios.com/2023/05/18/electric-car-battery-swapping

Fisker & Circle K Show Us That EV Charging & Battery Swapping Continue To Compete https://cleantechnica.com/2023/05/30/fisker-circle-k-show-us-that-ev-charging-battery-swapping-continue-to-compete/

[LennStar]

The "perfect" car for us would be an electric version of our 1990s CRV. No sci-fi styling. 250 miles range. Heat and air. Our range needs are modest but the battery would essentially never degrade lower than our local needs. I guess I need access to 3rd world countries where they sell essentially the same vehicles for 40 years. ;)

Maybe look at the Chinese market then. BYD released a sub 10K dollar car there this year. Range was only 250km not miles though. And of course you won't be able to buy it in USA or Europe. Nobody wants a cheap car with low margin here, the car makers say.
(In Germany you can currently buy 2 SUVs and one luxury limousine)
Though the Chinese cars will likely all be full of "entertainment" and other gimmicks,

[Just Joe]

The "perfect" car for us would be an electric version of our 1990s CRV. No sci-fi styling. 250 miles range. Heat and air. Our range needs are modest but the battery would essentially never degrade lower than our local needs. I guess I need access to 3rd world countries where they sell essentially the same vehicles for 40 years. ;)

Big and fancy is great on road trips. Not as appealing when I just need to grab a few groceries or do a quick trip to the hardware store. Then fancy is a liability in my opinion.

Are we the same person? :-) I bought a 2021 Honda CR-V a couple of years ago and I find that it's just about the perfect vehicle for my needs. I was thinking recently that if Honda made an electric version of my specific car, I would sign up for it right away.

But in any case, I expect to keep this car for many years so no EVs in the future for me. When the time comes for me to buy an EV it will not be a Tesla. Musk has made Tesla such a toxic brand, that I will never buy a Tesla as long as he is associated with that company in any way.

We may be the same person. ;)

However, I think for around town I prefer the smaller 1st gen CRV which is similar in size to the current Honda HRV. An electric HRV with 1990s knobs and features might have alot of appeal. I don't need touchscreens or NAV in a vehicle I'm buying for short distance uses. Any day trips could utilize my phone for NAV and streaming. Just give me bluetooth/AUX port with AM/FM. Just a standard DIN size radio.

Its a goofy looking thing but this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9GrZrFTVEA) suits my needs perfectly if the cargo space could manage a single pallet. That's a convenient measure of cargo space. Again - low speeds and short distances. A/C and heat would be welcome.

[Just Joe]

500 miles is an oddball range for that duty cycle in my opinion. It's probably quite a bit more than what is needed for most regional loads. Musk said at the original Semi reveal in 2017 that 80% of semi loads are 250 miles or less, and most of the EV semis from legacy semi companies are closer to that distance than the 500 mile Tesla.

I expect the 500 mile range might be there to offset the range loss that comes with an aging battery pack. And for times when a truck is stuck in gridlock traffic which every city features these days.

[TomTX]

Electric car battery swapping gets a reboot https://www.axios.com/2023/05/18/electric-car-battery-swapping

Fisker & Circle K Show Us That EV Charging & Battery Swapping Continue To Compete https://cleantechnica.com/2023/05/30/fisker-circle-k-show-us-that-ev-charging-battery-swapping-continue-to-compete/

LOL!

Anything relying on Fisker isn't "competing". They've delivered somewhere between single digits and a few hundred cars, and they outsourced their manufacturing to Magnus.

[Just Joe]

Maybe look at the Chinese market then. BYD released a sub 10K dollar car there this year. Range was only 250km not miles though. And of course you won't be able to buy it in USA or Europe. Nobody wants a cheap car with low margin here, the car makers say.
(In Germany you can currently buy 2 SUVs and one luxury limousine)
Though the Chinese cars will likely all be full of "entertainment" and other gimmicks,

We saw this the other day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWpIh72mRqw

Being picky but: not my style at all. I love Beetles (and own an antique) but don't need all the glamour that the Ora Ballet Cat carries. What a name... ;)
However it looks like a nice car.

A long way from the stereotypical Chinese car-shaped vehicles I had previously seen on the web: https://youtu.be/sgDpqd38HtQ

[nereo]

Maybe look at the Chinese market then. BYD released a sub 10K dollar car there this year. Range was only 250km not miles though. And of course you won't be able to buy it in USA or Europe. Nobody wants a cheap car with low margin here, the car makers say.
(In Germany you can currently buy 2 SUVs and one luxury limousine)
Though the Chinese cars will likely all be full of "entertainment" and other gimmicks,

We saw this the other day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWpIh72mRqw

Being picky but: not my style at all. I love Beetles (and own an antique) but don't need all the glamour that the Ora Ballet Cat carries. What a name... ;)
However it looks like a nice car.

A long way from the stereotypical Chinese car-shaped vehicles I had previously seen on the web: https://youtu.be/sgDpqd38HtQ

Nice looking.  Do you think they are street-legal on US roads?

[jeninco]

The "perfect" car for us would be an electric version of our 1990s CRV. No sci-fi styling. 250 miles range. Heat and air. Our range needs are modest but the battery would essentially never degrade lower than our local needs. I guess I need access to 3rd world countries where they sell essentially the same vehicles for 40 years. ;)

Big and fancy is great on road trips. Not as appealing when I just need to grab a few groceries or do a quick trip to the hardware store. Then fancy is a liability in my opinion.

Are we the same person? :-) I bought a 2021 Honda CR-V a couple of years ago and I find that it's just about the perfect vehicle for my needs. I was thinking recently that if Honda made an electric version of my specific car, I would sign up for it right away.

But in any case, I expect to keep this car for many years so no EVs in the future for me. When the time comes for me to buy an EV it will not be a Tesla. Musk has made Tesla such a toxic brand, that I will never buy a Tesla as long as he is associated with that company in any way.

We ended up getting a Honda CRV hybrid and are enjoying it so far.  Apparently they are coming out with a plug-in version this year, too.  So CRV fans may want to keep an eye on that (although we won't be needing one for hopefully many years).

A friend of ours went along with another pal to test-drive the new Tesla (Pal was a very early adopter of the Tesla, and was thinking of upgrading -- he's got the free charging option that came with very early Teslas, and the company is trying to get people to upgrade away from that...). Salesbro calls friend up later and says "what'd you think?" Friend says, honestly, "Cool technology, and I will never, ever purchase a Tesla as long as Elon Musk is associated with the company."

Meanwhile, we're trying to replace a 2002 VW European with ... something that we can still camp in, but gets better mileage (and, honestly, is probably a hybrid: there are places we'd want to take a camping vehicle where the nearest charger could be quite a ways away).  Then we could replace our highway-driving car with something that's a full electric vehicle -- the second part is relatively easy, but replacing the camper van is a doozy. (We know that VW is making an electric version of the bus, but ... look, remote Utah can be really remote! When the nearest "town" is Green River, and you're hours away on gnarly dirt roads, do you really want to be counting electrons? And the Toyota Rav4 isn't really suitable for camping in, at least not any version we've seen. No, don't want a Sprinter that is high-profile and gets 20 MPG. Talk about there not being a market for the vehicle we want!)

[Just Joe]

Well - I doubt they would be street legal in most of the coastal (blue) states b/c rules. I happen to live in one of the red states and surprisingly alot of things can be registered as motorcycles here. It is one of those few perks of living here. ;) We can register UTVs as motorcycles for example. There is a recent Mahindra 4WD (think tiny Jeep) roaming around town with motorcycle tags. There are rules - they aren't legal on highways for example. And I've never seen any of those people driving in a dangerous way. Perhaps they know how vulnerable they are.

Regardless of how legal to drive they may be - they need to be insured. I have not looked into that at all.
I question whether rules about emissions and safety really are about limiting access of imports to American markets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

The gov't lectures us about safety when its legal to daily drive any antique vehicle. We can daily drive any motorcycle or scooter. No safety to be found in those vehicles. ;)

As for pollution - the law here turns a blind eye around here to smoky diesels and worn out gasoline engines laying a blue cloud behind them - and they do not test vehicle emissions in my state. Admittedly the current fleet of daily drivers here are much better on average than they were 20 years ago. I rarely see cars burning oil or belching over-rich black soot. Those engines don't last long once they start doing that. Not many really old cars and trucks running around on a daily basis here. Just weekenders out for a ride. Natural attrition.

Now clearly this can't an "anything goes" situation. Nobody needs to be trying to operate a ~20 mph golf cart in 45 mph traffic areas.  Or that little Chinese trucklet in 45 mph traffic. However designated (legal) low speed routes through town would be nice for golf cart drivers. There are clueless consumers who would try to take a toy car or truck on the interstate, who would get killed b/c their miniature vehicle lacks proper seat belts. I want you to do what you want to do - to a point. Until it starts affecting me and mine. I think after a period of pain people would get alot wiser about how to use their tiny car.

I think our state is a good minimum standards example and allows people to make their own decisions. If you want to daily drive a 1965 Chevy - the consequences are on you.

[nereo]

That was a lot of words

[Just Joe]

Meanwhile, we're trying to replace a 2002 VW European with ... something that we can still camp in, but gets better mileage (and, honestly, is probably a hybrid: there are places we'd want to take a camping vehicle where the nearest charger could be quite a ways away). 

Don't forget that Dodge sells the Fiat Ducato and Ford sells the Transit. The "Transit Connect" is something else. Mercedes Metris can be had with a poptop I think. Wonder if they are affordable on the used market?

No idea what a bespoke camper interior would cost these days. I have a 1970s Westfalia and when I rebuild the interior we're going for simple. Bed, top loading fridge and single burner for coffee. Some storage. Still has a poptop bed too.

Seems like VW could have sold a fair number of T6 Transporters in the USA but I guess they want us to buy SUVs. Oh yeah, the chicken tax would add 25% to the price unless VW got creative. Ford got around this with the Transit Connect by installing back seats in them until they were imported I read here:

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2021/06/03/ford-transit-connect-van-import-penalty/7524765002/


https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a35158276/2021-mercedes-benz-metris-weekender-camper-road-trip/

Dang $90,000 USD. NOPE!

[Just Joe]

Nereo: sorry. Going outside. Stepping away from the keyboard. I feel especially talkative. Going to work on my car and listen to a podcast or something.

[nereo]

Nereo: sorry. Going outside. Stepping away from the keyboard. I feel especially talkative. Going to work on my car and listen to a podcast or something.

Sounds good - I hope my comment didn’t come off as mean spirited because that wasn’t my intent.  I was just curious and expected a 1-2 sentence reply instead of the substantially longer response given.

[LD_TAndK]

This article resonates with me.  This is essentially the first go at EV for most manufacturers and the first battery attempt.    We have a long way to go.  But I'm not sure what he meant about trucks as I saw a Tesla Truck with a full 40' load roaring down I-5 last week.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/electric-vehicles-early-adopter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson

I'm tired of the "emissions of manufacturing batteries" argument against passenger electric vehicles. This article is borderline misinformation at this point. The "70% higher" emissions article that Rowan cites clearly shows that lifetime emissions from EV's are less than ICE, even with the current global energy mix.

But Rowan instead falsely claims that he's been "duped" by the greenness of electric vehicles, and it's better to stay with ICE for the time being. This reads like a FUD piece put on by the fossil fuel industry.

[GilesMM]

Yup. Frito-Lay is one of the early use cases. They even talk publicly about how the trucks are for regional routes and how much the range drops when they are tucking heavy cases of soda.

The regionality is partly constrained by lack of chargers.  Once the network expands, say up and down I-5, truckers can drive a few hundred miles then take stop for a refueling break.

[GilesMM]

This article resonates with me.  This is essentially the first go at EV for most manufacturers and the first battery attempt.    We have a long way to go.  But I'm not sure what he meant about trucks as I saw a Tesla Truck with a full 40' load roaring down I-5 last week.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/electric-vehicles-early-adopter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson

I'm tired of the "emissions of manufacturing batteries" argument against passenger electric vehicles. This article is borderline misinformation at this point. The "70% higher" emissions article that Rowan cites clearly shows that lifetime emissions from EV's are less than ICE, even with the current global energy mix.

But Rowan instead falsely claims that he's been "duped" by the greenness of electric vehicles, and it's better to stay with ICE for the time being. This reads like a FUD piece put on by the fossil fuel industry.

Lithium mining is unbelievably horrible for the environment and unsustainable.  New battery technologies are urgently needed.

[LD_TAndK]

Lithium mining is unbelievably horrible for the environment and unsustainable.  New battery technologies are urgently needed.

Yes, lithium mining damages the environment, alternatives should be researched. I wouldn't call it "unbelievably horrible" when compared with other extractive industries, particularly drilling for oil and gas.

EV's are better than continuing with ICE cars, this argument feels like a distraction from that point.

[Paper Chaser]

This article resonates with me.  This is essentially the first go at EV for most manufacturers and the first battery attempt.    We have a long way to go.  But I'm not sure what he meant about trucks as I saw a Tesla Truck with a full 40' load roaring down I-5 last week.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/electric-vehicles-early-adopter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson

I'm tired of the "emissions of manufacturing batteries" argument against passenger electric vehicles. This article is borderline misinformation at this point. The "70% higher" emissions article that Rowan cites clearly shows that lifetime emissions from EV's are less than ICE, even with the current global energy mix.

But Rowan instead falsely claims that he's been "duped" by the greenness of electric vehicles, and it's better to stay with ICE for the time being. This reads like a FUD piece put on by the fossil fuel industry.

I don't see it that way. The CO2 emissions from large EV battery production are significantly higher than a comparable new ICE. It takes miles driven to accrue the (financial or GHG) benefits of an EV over a new ICE, and far longer if comparing to an existing ICE vehicle.
EVs reward consumption. If you're like many Mustachians and don't drive very much, or drive something very efficient, the per-mile benefits of an EV may not break even during the lifetime of the vehicle. They're great for air quality thanks to zero tailpipe emissions, but for climate change keeping a current vehicle on the road may be the better move
I see it more as an argument that consumption (even if it's moving toward a cleaner option) is pretty damaging to the environment. That shouldn't be particularly controversial in these parts. The "three R's" of environmentalism are Reduce, Reuse, Recycle. And they're in that order for a reason. Reducing consumption, and getting as much life out of things as possible will be better than cranking out a billion widgets that gradually accrue some benefit over the years.

[GilesMM]

Lithium mining is unbelievably horrible for the environment and unsustainable.  New battery technologies are urgently needed.

Yes, lithium mining damages the environment, alternatives should be researched. I wouldn't call it "unbelievably horrible" when compared with other extractive industries, particularly drilling for oil and gas.

EV's are better than continuing with ICE cars, this argument feels like a distraction from that point.

Lithium is strip mining cubic miles of earth. Total destruction.  Oil and gas is a six-inch diameter hole.

[TomTX]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/electric-vehicles-early-adopter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson

I'm tired of the "emissions of manufacturing batteries" argument against passenger electric vehicles. This article is borderline misinformation at this point. The "70% higher" emissions article that Rowan cites clearly shows that lifetime emissions from EV's are less than ICE, even with the current global energy mix.[/quote]

Nah, they aren't using emissions of the current global energy mix. The Volvo publication was from 2021, which means the energy (electricity production) mix used for the calculations is likely 2018 at best.

And they still assume that the energy mix will never improve from that level over the likely ~20 year lifespan of a vehicle.

Utterly ridiculous.

[EvenSteven]

Lithium mining is unbelievably horrible for the environment and unsustainable.  New battery technologies are urgently needed.

Yes, lithium mining damages the environment, alternatives should be researched. I wouldn't call it "unbelievably horrible" when compared with other extractive industries, particularly drilling for oil and gas.

EV's are better than continuing with ICE cars, this argument feels like a distraction from that point.

Lithium is strip mining cubic miles of earth. Total destruction.  Oil and gas is a six-inch diameter hole.

snip

Is that really a picture of lithium mining? It appears to be a picture of a copper mine that was closed in 1985.

[neo von retorch]

Photo source:
https://insideclimatenews.org/news/13032022/as-the-us-rushes-after-the-minerals-for-the-energy-transition-a-150-year-old-law-allows-mining-companies-free-reign-on-public-lands/

The Lavendar Pit at Copper Queen Mine is seen in Bisbee, Arizona on July 24, 2020. Credit: Frederic J. Brown/AFP via Getty Images

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_Queen_Mine

With decreasing returns, Phelps Dodge closed it in 1985.

[RWD]

Low impact lithium extraction:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbzL09SoHdo

There is also work being done on sodium-ion batteries which bypasses the use of lithium entirely:
https://cleantechnica.com/2023/04/22/the-sodium-ion-battery-is-coming-to-production-cars-this-year/

[LennStar]

Lithium is strip mining cubic miles of earth. Total destruction.  Oil and gas is a six-inch diameter hole.

If you don't count what's lost or dropped unitl it arrives at the car and of course not things like destroyed oil platform destroying whole ecosystems bigger than most countries. Not to mention leaks of e.g. gas into the athmosphere because it's cheapter than trying to catch it.

[Just Joe]

Nereo: sorry. Going outside. Stepping away from the keyboard. I feel especially talkative. Going to work on my car and listen to a podcast or something.

Sounds good - I hope my comment didn’t come off as mean spirited because that wasn’t my intent.  I was just curious and expected a 1-2 sentence reply instead of the substantially longer response given.

Nah. We're all good. This is just one of those topics I am especially enthusiastic about and I'm prone to make rambling responses. Must-get-all-the-words-written... ;)

[Just Joe]

This article resonates with me.  This is essentially the first go at EV for most manufacturers and the first battery attempt.    We have a long way to go.  But I'm not sure what he meant about trucks as I saw a Tesla Truck with a full 40' load roaring down I-5 last week.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/electric-vehicles-early-adopter-petrol-car-ev-environment-rowan-atkinson

I'm tired of the "emissions of manufacturing batteries" argument against passenger electric vehicles. This article is borderline misinformation at this point. The "70% higher" emissions article that Rowan cites clearly shows that lifetime emissions from EV's are less than ICE, even with the current global energy mix.

But Rowan instead falsely claims that he's been "duped" by the greenness of electric vehicles, and it's better to stay with ICE for the time being. This reads like a FUD piece put on by the fossil fuel industry.

He has nothing to worry about. He's rich. He can buy a few favorite gas burners now and drive them the rest of his life.

[Just Joe]

Lithium mining is unbelievably horrible for the environment and unsustainable.  New battery technologies are urgently needed.

Aren't there multiple methods of acquiring lithium besides digging such as extracting it from brine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfZqpdt3Zy0

These folks extract it from brine. Seems preferable to a big hole in the ground?.

Edit::awkward wording

[nereo]

Lithium is strip mining cubic miles of earth. Total destruction.  Oil and gas is a six-inch diameter hole.

This seems like trolling.
Resource extraction in general can be terrible across all fields when done poorly. But even those who've worked in oil and gas would say their footprint per rig is a hell of a lot larger than a 6" hole.

...and of course we can't ignore that many of the worst ecological disasters in the last half century have been tied to fossil fuel drilling and transport (see Deep Water Horizon, Valdez, Ixtoc)
...and how the land surrounding the rigs are not suitable for agriculture or anything else due to chemical contamination
...and ignoring blood and treasure and spent on controlling oil-rich regions, plus the oppressive regimes fueled almost entirely by oil and gas
...and ignoring the pipelines, refineries and rail & ship infrastructure

I mean.. if you're going to show a photo of a copper mine and bemoan its impact, at least show one of an oil field that by global standards is well regulated.  Clearly the footprint here is more than a few hundred 6" holes spread over several square dozen square miles.  It's the entire oilfield. And that's just the extraction.