Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[pecunia]

Road Noise- Time to build the wall and have Mexican and other drivers pay for it.  These stone walls really cut down on the noise.

[nereo]

Problem with road noise and ICE vehicles near us isn’t cars traveling at a uniform highway speed.  It’s all those coming onto the highway, accelerating from 15mpg to 60+.  And of course the larger trucks using their engine (jake) brakes to de-accelerate

[Just Joe]

And different states regulate what a person can and can't do to their vehicles. My state is pretty lax with no vehicle inspections. They do sniff the exhaust in a few metro areas.

Around here the big cities are much tighter on the rules than smaller towns or rural areas.

[jinga nation]

In some areas (like mine) Tesla Model 3s are seen more frequently than Toyota/Honda/Lexus/etc sedans. Add in a lot of Model S too. Plus many Nissan Leafs. Electric cars are past the stage of early adoption. They are mainstream. At least in urban areas.

Things holding back higher sales (my anecdata):
1. justification for the price premium, for the hoi polloi
2. lack of OEM/DIY options. lot of us are DIYers, especially for keeping a car for a long time.
3. confusion over DRM - lack of trust when manufacturer can remotely disable features/vehicle if something was replaced at a non-authorized dealer (see Rich Rebuilds on youtube)
4. charging network and range anxiety. More charging points are being constantly added and battery and super-capacitor tech is constantly improving.

I'm watching VW's ID platform. That may be a global game changer. Competition is good.

We bought our first hybrid in 2019 (Honda Insight 3rd gen). We keep our cars until they die or when they have a major expensive issue. I expect to purchase an electric car in 5-7 years to replace my ICE SUV (Toyota).

[BicycleB]

In some areas (like mine) Tesla Model 3s are seen more frequently than Toyota/Honda/Lexus/etc sedans. Add in a lot of Model S too. Plus many Nissan Leafs. Electric cars are past the stage of early adoption. They are mainstream. At least in urban areas.

I live in a city full of techies, money, hipsters and liberals. My neighborhood is gentrifying. But I have yet to see a Tesla parked at any house in my neighborhood, let alone the apartments.

I'd agree with mainstream "in some neighborhoods", but "urban areas" seems too broad.

[JLee]

In some areas (like mine) Tesla Model 3s are seen more frequently than Toyota/Honda/Lexus/etc sedans. Add in a lot of Model S too. Plus many Nissan Leafs. Electric cars are past the stage of early adoption. They are mainstream. At least in urban areas.

I live in a city full of techies, money, hipsters and liberals. My neighborhood is gentrifying. But I have yet to see a Tesla parked at any house in my neighborhood, let alone the apartments.

I'd agree with mainstream "in some neighborhoods", but "urban areas" seems too broad.

Maybe they're parked in garages with access to power? I see Model 3's frequently in northern NJ, Model S/X occasionally.

[kenmoremmm]

starting about 2 years ago, i noticed from my bike commute that tesla became the most common car on the streets of bellevue, wa. can't speak about seattle since i don't bike there. in a three lane road at a stop light, i glanced around behind me and noted 6 teslas. lots of tesla SUV's too.

[BuffaloStache]

They definitely aren't the most common cars on the roads, but where I'm at it's hard to drive for longer than ~5 minutes without seeing at least one BEV. I used to live in a condo complex with a neighbor that parked on the street and strung an extension cord out of their window to charge it, but most people seem to keep theirs in garages with more direct access to power.

[AlanStache]

I thought that tesla was being somewhat deliberate about where they were pushing sales so those areas could be focused on to get good charging station networks.  You cant build infrastructure everywhere, so focusing on making it usable in a few areas vs crapy everywhere seems like a good strategy. 

[sherr]

I think it has more to do with which states have additional incentives for BEV vehicles. I haven't driven all over the country or anything, but Tesla's Supercharger network is pretty good everywhere. And remember, Superchargers only matter for road trips; while you're at home you charge at home.

[dandarc]

They definitely aren't the most common cars on the roads, but where I'm at it's hard to drive for longer than ~5 minutes without seeing at least one BEV. I used to live in a condo complex with a neighbor that parked on the street and strung an extension cord out of their window to charge it, but most people seem to keep theirs in garages with more direct access to power.

Man . . . I coulda saved 600 bucks getting a new outlet within 20 feet of where the car charges. On the other hand, I use that outlet for other things - can reach every place I need to with the (still working and came with the house) corded electric mower and a single 100 foot cord. Needed 150 feet of extension cord before to get to the corners.

[Just Joe]

In some areas (like mine) Tesla Model 3s are seen more frequently than Toyota/Honda/Lexus/etc sedans. Add in a lot of Model S too. Plus many Nissan Leafs. Electric cars are past the stage of early adoption. They are mainstream. At least in urban areas.

I live in a city full of techies, money, hipsters and liberals. My neighborhood is gentrifying. But I have yet to see a Tesla parked at any house in my neighborhood, let alone the apartments.

I'd agree with mainstream "in some neighborhoods", but "urban areas" seems too broad.

We live a long way for anywhere you've ever heard of. Our neighbor has a Tesla Model 3 parked at a average home. There are five Teslas that I see often with our county name on the license plate. Add to it several Leafs new and old. There is a Chevy Bolt and two Volts. I also see a BMW i3 and one electric motorcycle. One of the local businesses has five Leafs and a hybrid Ford F250 pickup truck.

EVs seem to be very mainstream here. All in a very red state far from the coasts and in a red county.

[neo von retorch]

The anecdotes are interesting, but that's why I began this thread with some national statistics. The U.S. and Canada are  really big countries and the population density varies throughout. My high cost of living area has very few Tesla (none within several streets of my home) but I see them a good bit on the commuter corridors. Tesla is obviously increasing sales over time, especially on a global basis, and those sales are exceeding smaller players in the automotive industry, but also dwarfed by many ICE models from the biggest makes (GM, Toyota, Ford, VW).

I guess what I'm saying is that they are "mainstream" the way comparable makes like BMW or Subaru are, but not at all the way Toyota is.

[pecunia]

I see Subarus all the time.  I rarely see a Tesla.  I don't really notice BMWs.

Subaru is supposed to begin selling electric cars in 2021.  I believe I will see more Subaru electric vehicles than Tesla because there are more Subaru dealerships.

[jinga nation]

The anecdotes are interesting, but that's why I began this thread with some national statistics. The U.S. and Canada are  really big countries and the population density varies throughout. My high cost of living area has very few Tesla (none within several streets of my home) but I see them a good bit on the commuter corridors. Tesla is obviously increasing sales over time, especially on a global basis, and those sales are exceeding smaller players in the automotive industry, but also dwarfed by many ICE models from the biggest makes (GM, Toyota, Ford, VW).

I guess what I'm saying is that they are "mainstream" the way comparable makes like BMW or Subaru are, but not at all the way Toyota is.

I'm saying mainstream in the sense electric cars are seen as just another car and no longer a novelty. Acceptance. My brother's area, about 20-30% of the homes have a Tesla, anecdata perhaps, but no one bats an eyelid or gets googly eyes.

[BicycleB]

The anecdotes are interesting, but that's why I began this thread with some national statistics. The U.S. and Canada are  really big countries and the population density varies throughout. My high cost of living area has very few Tesla (none within several streets of my home) but I see them a good bit on the commuter corridors. Tesla is obviously increasing sales over time, especially on a global basis, and those sales are exceeding smaller players in the automotive industry, but also dwarfed by many ICE models from the biggest makes (GM, Toyota, Ford, VW).

I guess what I'm saying is that they are "mainstream" the way comparable makes like BMW or Subaru are, but not at all the way Toyota is.

I'm saying mainstream in the sense electric cars are seen as just another car and no longer a novelty. Acceptance. My brother's area, about 20-30% of the homes have a Tesla, anecdata perhaps, but no one bats an eyelid or gets googly eyes.

I think they're mainstream in patches.

80% of America lives in "urban areas." If my urban area in a forward-looking city doesn't have many of them, "mainstream in (all) urban areas" is probably overreaching. If they're frequent in some patches and not in others, that would explain the varied infrastructure one poster described; would explain what I see and would explain what ya'll see in the several areas that have lots of them, reconciling the different observations; and would explain that the stats say there are significant but not huge national numbers.

As of August 2020, 1.6 million electric vehicles had been sold in US since 2010.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_the_United_States

That compares to a vehicle fleet of about 279 million, meaning less than 1 percent. Presumably the neighborhood with 20-30% electric is an outlier. If the electrics are clustering in neighborhoods where 20% are electric, then wouldn't that mean most neighborhoods must have far less than 1%? Perhaps the readers of this thread mostly live in early adopter neighborhoods?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/859950/vehicles-in-operation-by-quarter-united-states/

[BicycleB]

In some areas (like mine) Tesla Model 3s are seen more frequently than Toyota/Honda/Lexus/etc sedans. Add in a lot of Model S too. Plus many Nissan Leafs. Electric cars are past the stage of early adoption. They are mainstream. At least in urban areas.

I live in a city full of techies, money, hipsters and liberals. My neighborhood is gentrifying. But I have yet to see a Tesla parked at any house in my neighborhood, let alone the apartments.

I'd agree with mainstream "in some neighborhoods", but "urban areas" seems too broad.

Maybe they're parked in garages with access to power? ...

I like that idea!

There are very few garages in my 'hood. We're mostly in 1960s ranch houses with former carports converted into living space. I did see a Tesla parked at my voting location today though.

[sherr]

I see Subarus all the time.  I rarely see a Tesla.  I don't really notice BMWs.

Subaru is supposed to begin selling electric cars in 2021.  I believe I will see more Subaru electric vehicles than Tesla because there are more Subaru dealerships.

You see more Subarus because

• Subaru still sells more cars per year, yes, but also and more importantly:
• They've been selling cars for like 100 years, so you see models from every year for the lifetime of the car. Tesla only started producing cars in real volume in 2018, so basically every Tesla you see is 2 years old or less. If only 2-year old Subarus were on the road you'd see a lot less of them too. :)

As far as I know Tesla is still supply-constrained: they sell every car they make as about fast as they can make them. As far as I know there is no other traditional car manufacturer that has caught up to Tesla's volume yet, either for BEV or the easier PHEV (because one BEV-sized battery can be split up into maybe 4 PHEV cars, assuming the batteries are the limiting factor, which right now I think they are). This is why Tesla is doing stuff like starting to mine their own lithium and building out their own battery manufacturing plants, they want to keep ramping up production but they foresee a very crowded market with too many manufacturers wanting to buy the existing battery supply.

All that to say that Subaru obviously knows how to make cars, and they're good at it, but they might have a harder time catching up to Tesla's electric car volumes.

[Paper Chaser]

The trend that is emerging in these recent posts is that while urban duty cycles (low speed, frequent stop/go) may be ideal for an EV, EV adoption is not necessarily about urban or rural. EVs really only make sense if you can charge them nightly with little/no impact to your schedule. That requires a dedicated space (which about 2/3 of US housing units have), and appropriate electrical power to that dedicated space. Those things are less common in urban areas than suburbs or rural areas. Urban areas are also more likely to have public transit options to reduce demand for a vehicle at all. Finally, public charging is significantly more expensive than charging at home and typically rivals the current cost of gasoline which negates a big cost savings.
 
The first hurdle is simply being allowed to sell a product in a given location. Tesla and some other EV startups don't have typical dealerships, and a few states have laws against direct to consumer vehicle sales. The legacy companies that use dealers have an advantage in this area, but their EVs aren't easily identifiable for most people so they're over looked on the roads. If that hurdle is cleared, states that incentivize EV purchase with heavy subsidies obviously have a higher take rate. EVs are still generally more expensive than their ICE counterparts too, so it takes a higher income to own one than an average new vehicle buyer. So what does that mean relative to EVs in the market place? EV market penetration is deepest in high income, commuter areas of states that offer large subsidies. These people have the money to own, they have a place to charge nightly, and they drive lots of miles (which gets to the financial "break even" point faster). Large parts of CA come to mind, and they have the highest fuel prices in the country too which makes it easier for the EV financial math to work out as well.

[Just Joe]

Li-ion batteries prefer to be kept between 80% and 20%. I think an EV would be very easy to live even without home charging with if a person could get by on a single for the week. If they had a gasoline car for those sudden emergency trips across the continent.

The cost to charge even at a commercial charger is about 1/3-1/2 the cost of refueling with gasoline. Its just a question of convenience.

The folks that keep their EV plugged up all the time may experience expensive battery issues eventually b/c the high charge condition wears the battery out too.

I know some brands are configured so that they can't be charged or discharged beyond the 80-20 cycle but I don't know which ones are those.

[JLee]

Li-ion batteries prefer to be kept between 80% and 20%. I think an EV would be very easy to live even without home charging with if a person could get by on a single for the week. If they had a gasoline car for those sudden emergency trips across the continent.

The cost to charge even at a commercial charger is about 1/3-1/2 the cost of refueling with gasoline. Its just a question of convenience.

The folks that keep their EV plugged up all the time may experience expensive battery issues eventually b/c the high charge condition wears the battery out too.

I know some brands are configured so that they can't be charged or discharged beyond the 80-20 cycle but I don't know which ones are those.

Tesla specifically recommends that the car be plugged in (if possible) when not in use, because the battery management system can keep the battery healthier that way. It's not like a AA battery where you put it in a charger and it just sits at max charge no matter what - the charge schedule and charge limit can be set (even in my Bolt) to ensure you're not sitting at 100% all the time.

[Paper Chaser]

Li-ion batteries prefer to be kept between 80% and 20%. I think an EV would be very easy to live even without home charging with if a person could get by on a single for the week. If they had a gasoline car for those sudden emergency trips across the continent.

The cost to charge even at a commercial charger is about 1/3-1/2 the cost of refueling with gasoline. Its just a question of convenience.

The folks that keep their EV plugged up all the time may experience expensive battery issues eventually b/c the high charge condition wears the battery out too.

I know some brands are configured so that they can't be charged or discharged beyond the 80-20 cycle but I don't know which ones are those.

Yeah, most EVs, especially the ones coming to market now won't let the battery charge get to an unhealthy level outside of special circumstances (For example Tesla has been known to remotely lift those restrictions and extend vehicle range for a short time to people fleeing hurricanes, etc).

As for comparing cost of public charging to gasoline, the answer is a whole lot of "it depends". It depends on the cost to charge at that public charger. It depends on local fuel costs. It depends on fuel type and fuel economy of the comparable ICE vehicle. Here's some rough math to use as an example in my location:

Charging costs at public chargers fluctuate just like fuel costs do (which is another negative that home charging avoids), but Tesla's literature estimates costs for Supercharger use @ $0.26/kwh so we'll use that for our estimate. If you get 4 miles of travel per kwh (fairly standard for a current EV), that works out to a cost per mile of $0.065/mile.
And Superchargers in many places are over their estimated cost, which obviously alters the math and makes cost/mile increase:
https://electrek.co/2019/01/18/tesla-increases-supercharger-prices/
For total transparency we can compare that to home charging at $0.10/kwh in my location for a cost per mile of $0.025/mile

AAA says that the average price for a gallon of regular unleaded is currently $2.03 in my state (I paid $1.84/gal a few days ago but we'll go with the official estimate). If I drive a gas car that gets 35mpg and takes regular unleaded, it's going to cost $0.058/mile, making it cheaper than a Tesla Supercharger. And I can get the maximum range in just a few minutes. I know high voltage chargers are getting faster all the time, but they're in a constant state of change. If you have to rely only on public charging you have to avoid the older, slower chargers or just accept lots of time at the charger that you'd totally skip with at-home charging. It's obviously not a deal breaker for people that really want an EV, but having to carve out time specifically to charge is a legitimate deterrent for those without home charging who might be agnostic about EVs.

[JLee]

Li-ion batteries prefer to be kept between 80% and 20%. I think an EV would be very easy to live even without home charging with if a person could get by on a single for the week. If they had a gasoline car for those sudden emergency trips across the continent.

The cost to charge even at a commercial charger is about 1/3-1/2 the cost of refueling with gasoline. Its just a question of convenience.

The folks that keep their EV plugged up all the time may experience expensive battery issues eventually b/c the high charge condition wears the battery out too.

I know some brands are configured so that they can't be charged or discharged beyond the 80-20 cycle but I don't know which ones are those.

Yeah, most EVs, especially the ones coming to market now won't let the battery charge get to an unhealthy level outside of special circumstances (For example Tesla has been known to remotely lift those restrictions and extend vehicle range for a short time to people fleeing hurricanes, etc).

As for comparing cost of public charging to gasoline, the answer is a whole lot of "it depends". It depends on the cost to charge at that public charger. It depends on local fuel costs. It depends on fuel type and fuel economy of the comparable ICE vehicle. Here's some rough math to use as an example in my location:

Charging costs at public chargers fluctuate just like fuel costs do (which is another negative that home charging avoids), but Tesla's literature estimates costs for Supercharger use @ $0.26/kwh so we'll use that for our estimate. If you get 4 miles of travel per kwh (fairly standard for a current EV), that works out to a cost per mile of $0.065/mile.
And Superchargers in many places are over their estimated cost, which obviously alters the math and makes cost/mile increase:
https://electrek.co/2019/01/18/tesla-increases-supercharger-prices/
For total transparency we can compare that to home charging at $0.10/kwh in my location for a cost per mile of $0.025/mile

AAA says that the average price for a gallon of regular unleaded is currently $2.03 in my state (I paid $1.84/gal a few days ago but we'll go with the official estimate). If I drive a gas car that gets 35mpg and takes regular unleaded, it's going to cost $0.058/mile, making it cheaper than a Tesla Supercharger. And I can get the maximum range in just a few minutes. I know high voltage chargers are getting faster all the time, but they're in a constant state of change. If you have to rely only on public charging you have to avoid the older, slower chargers or just accept lots of time at the charger that you'd totally skip with at-home charging. It's obviously not a deal breaker for people that really want an EV, but having to carve out time specifically to charge is a legitimate deterrent for those without home charging who might be agnostic about EVs.

Crazy cheap gasoline has definitely changed the math -- I remember $4+/gal back in 2008. If we ever end up back there again, things will change.  Oddly enough I have expensive power (offset significantly by a 13kw solar array) and cheap gas, but still prefer an EV -- even if the costs were equal, the lack of maintenance requirements, the driving experience, it's all a lot better than a typical fuel efficient car.

That said, there's no way I'd do it without home charging capability.

[nereo]

Li-ion batteries prefer to be kept between 80% and 20%. I think an EV would be very easy to live even without home charging with if a person could get by on a single for the week. If they had a gasoline car for those sudden emergency trips across the continent.

The cost to charge even at a commercial charger is about 1/3-1/2 the cost of refueling with gasoline. Its just a question of convenience.

The folks that keep their EV plugged up all the time may experience expensive battery issues eventually b/c the high charge condition wears the battery out too.

I know some brands are configured so that they can't be charged or discharged beyond the 80-20 cycle but I don't know which ones are those.

Yeah, most EVs, especially the ones coming to market now won't let the battery charge get to an unhealthy level outside of special circumstances (For example Tesla has been known to remotely lift those restrictions and extend vehicle range for a short time to people fleeing hurricanes, etc).

As for comparing cost of public charging to gasoline, the answer is a whole lot of "it depends". It depends on the cost to charge at that public charger. It depends on local fuel costs. It depends on fuel type and fuel economy of the comparable ICE vehicle. Here's some rough math to use as an example in my location:

Charging costs at public chargers fluctuate just like fuel costs do (which is another negative that home charging avoids), but Tesla's literature estimates costs for Supercharger use @ $0.26/kwh so we'll use that for our estimate. If you get 4 miles of travel per kwh (fairly standard for a current EV), that works out to a cost per mile of $0.065/mile.
And Superchargers in many places are over their estimated cost, which obviously alters the math and makes cost/mile increase:
https://electrek.co/2019/01/18/tesla-increases-supercharger-prices/
For total transparency we can compare that to home charging at $0.10/kwh in my location for a cost per mile of $0.025/mile

AAA says that the average price for a gallon of regular unleaded is currently $2.03 in my state (I paid $1.84/gal a few days ago but we'll go with the official estimate). If I drive a gas car that gets 35mpg and takes regular unleaded, it's going to cost $0.058/mile, making it cheaper than a Tesla Supercharger. And I can get the maximum range in just a few minutes. I know high voltage chargers are getting faster all the time, but they're in a constant state of change. If you have to rely only on public charging you have to avoid the older, slower chargers or just accept lots of time at the charger that you'd totally skip with at-home charging. It's obviously not a deal breaker for people that really want an EV, but having to carve out time specifically to charge is a legitimate deterrent for those without home charging who might be agnostic about EVs.

Thanks for doing the math there, those are good figures to have.  It certainly does depend on a lot of factors, if one is just asking the question “is the cost of electricity per km less than that for gasoline?”

I still think you are getting a bit hung up on the time it takes to charge here. Going to a gas station and recharging an EV aren’t really comparable under normal use.  As you indicated EVs work best when you have a dedicated parking space, but I wouldn’t assume that they only work in that direction (getting charged overnight).  Plenty of work places offer EV charging now (including my last three employers) as do most malls, Walmarts, and other Big-box stores. For most people charging daily isn’t necessary - your ‘average’ driver can easily get by with recharging once/week. 

[Paper Chaser]

As for comparing cost of public charging to gasoline, the answer is a whole lot of "it depends". It depends on the cost to charge at that public charger. It depends on local fuel costs. It depends on fuel type and fuel economy of the comparable ICE vehicle. Here's some rough math to use as an example in my location:

Charging costs at public chargers fluctuate just like fuel costs do (which is another negative that home charging avoids), but Tesla's literature estimates costs for Supercharger use @ $0.26/kwh so we'll use that for our estimate. If you get 4 miles of travel per kwh (fairly standard for a current EV), that works out to a cost per mile of $0.065/mile.
And Superchargers in many places are over their estimated cost, which obviously alters the math and makes cost/mile increase:
https://electrek.co/2019/01/18/tesla-increases-supercharger-prices/
For total transparency we can compare that to home charging at $0.10/kwh in my location for a cost per mile of $0.025/mile

AAA says that the average price for a gallon of regular unleaded is currently $2.03 in my state (I paid $1.84/gal a few days ago but we'll go with the official estimate). If I drive a gas car that gets 35mpg and takes regular unleaded, it's going to cost $0.058/mile, making it cheaper than a Tesla Supercharger. And I can get the maximum range in just a few minutes. I know high voltage chargers are getting faster all the time, but they're in a constant state of change. If you have to rely only on public charging you have to avoid the older, slower chargers or just accept lots of time at the charger that you'd totally skip with at-home charging. It's obviously not a deal breaker for people that really want an EV, but having to carve out time specifically to charge is a legitimate deterrent for those without home charging who might be agnostic about EVs.

Thanks for doing the math there, those are good figures to have.  It certainly does depend on a lot of factors, if one is just asking the question “is the cost of electricity per km less than that for gasoline?”

I still think you are getting a bit hung up on the time it takes to charge here. Going to a gas station and recharging an EV aren’t really comparable under normal use.  As you indicated EVs work best when you have a dedicated parking space, but I wouldn’t assume that they only work in that direction (getting charged overnight).  Plenty of work places offer EV charging now (including my last three employers) as do most malls, Walmarts, and other Big-box stores. For most people charging daily isn’t necessary - your ‘average’ driver can easily get by with recharging once/week.

Yeah, if you don't have a dedicated parking space, but can get free charging from work, that's a big deal. I'm not sure what percentage of people, especially those in an urban environment have that option but it could seal the deal in some cases. I'd love to have that option. Heck, just being able to plug into a standard 120V outlet while working could probably get most people enough juice to drive 20 miles or so for their commute home. If charging at work costs the same as other public chargers, you'd usually be able to avoid the time suck of charging, but it still may be more expensive than gas (obviously situation specific).

The issue with public charging is that while it can be made to work, it requires more thought and planning than those who charge at home or those who drive an ICE. What if you don't need to go to work, or walmart, or wherever the nearest charger is located but you need to charge your car because something unexpected came up or your kid borrowed the car and didn't charge it so they could be home by curfew? These things might not happen often, especially to an MMMer, but they do happen to the general public. We're used to liquid fuels, where you can probably find a gas station and be back to 100% range in a matter of minutes no matter where you are. Charging at home actually requires less time and thinking than refueling an ICE so it's got a clear advantage over the status quo, but not everybody can do that. For now, public charging is going to require more thoughtful planning than refueling an ICE, and we know that "more planning" is not really something that the general public wants to do if they don't have to. I don't think that we need to have public chargers on every corner like we currently have gas stations, but I do think that they'll need to continue to increase their coverage and reduce charge times if EVs are to be truly mainstream options for all buyers. Obviously that work is ongoing, but we're not at a point yet where cost/availability/recharge time of public charging really makes EV ownership a comparably hassle-free experience relative to fueling an ICE. Again, it's not an insurmountable hassle if you really want an EV, but if you're trying to change the status quo in any aspect of life, and your new product requires the user to do more or think more than the status quo that you're trying to replace, it's going to be tough sledding. The breakthroughs happen when the new thing is easier than the old thing.

[Paper Chaser]

As for comparing cost of public charging to gasoline, the answer is a whole lot of "it depends". It depends on the cost to charge at that public charger. It depends on local fuel costs. It depends on fuel type and fuel economy of the comparable ICE vehicle. Here's some rough math to use as an example in my location:

Charging costs at public chargers fluctuate just like fuel costs do (which is another negative that home charging avoids), but Tesla's literature estimates costs for Supercharger use @ $0.26/kwh so we'll use that for our estimate. If you get 4 miles of travel per kwh (fairly standard for a current EV), that works out to a cost per mile of $0.065/mile.
And Superchargers in many places are over their estimated cost, which obviously alters the math and makes cost/mile increase:
https://electrek.co/2019/01/18/tesla-increases-supercharger-prices/
For total transparency we can compare that to home charging at $0.10/kwh in my location for a cost per mile of $0.025/mile

AAA says that the average price for a gallon of regular unleaded is currently $2.03 in my state (I paid $1.84/gal a few days ago but we'll go with the official estimate). If I drive a gas car that gets 35mpg and takes regular unleaded, it's going to cost $0.058/mile, making it cheaper than a Tesla Supercharger. And I can get the maximum range in just a few minutes. I know high voltage chargers are getting faster all the time, but they're in a constant state of change. If you have to rely only on public charging you have to avoid the older, slower chargers or just accept lots of time at the charger that you'd totally skip with at-home charging. It's obviously not a deal breaker for people that really want an EV, but having to carve out time specifically to charge is a legitimate deterrent for those without home charging who might be agnostic about EVs.

Crazy cheap gasoline has definitely changed the math -- I remember $4+/gal back in 2008. If we ever end up back there again, things will change.

In addition to the crazy cheap gas, more fuel efficient ICE offerings help a lot too. For that reason, I'm a bit skeptical that $4/gal gas would have the same impact on vehicle sales that it did back in '08. It might help EV adoption, but I'm not sure how much. When you can get 3 row, hybrid CUVs that get 35mpg, and large hybrid sedans that get 45-50mpg pretty much all the time, the budgetary impact of the cost of fuel is decreased substantially compared to that 08 Ford Explorer that got 15 mpg combined. Especially when those hybrids often have price parity with regular ICE trim levels of the same model while EVs are still a few thousand more expensive.

Oddly enough I have expensive power (offset significantly by a 13kw solar array) and cheap gas, but still prefer an EV -- even if the costs were equal, the lack of maintenance requirements, the driving experience, it's all a lot better than a typical fuel efficient car.

That said, there's no way I'd do it without home charging capability.

Agreed. If you can charge an EV at home, it's actually less hassle than fueling an ICE and you get the other advantages too. It's almost a no brainer for me. For those who can't charge at home (or perhaps work as Nereo pointed out), I think a standard hybrid or PHEV probably makes more sense right now.

[nereo]

Well looping back to the topic of this thread, I think one of the ways that EVs can finally become popular in the US is when more places of business have chargers available.  Perhaps the driver would be new regulations (e.g. “all commercial parking-lots larger than 20 spaces must have at least X spaces equipped to charge EVs”), or maybe employers will just offer them as responsible entities as mine has....  I don’t know.

As you pointed out, even a ‘standard’ 120v outlet will give an employee 30+ miles over the course of a work day, plenty for most commutes. For parking lots with street-lights its an easy change-over.

What frustrates me about the discussion over charging is that people’s mind-set is so conditioned to going to the gas station to get fuel that we’re stuck in that mode — most of the discussion continues to be around a network of fast-chargers located and laid out like traditional service stations. Gasoline pumps were installed in special service stations because they are hazardous and explosive substances which needed special properties to house them.  EVs have no such constraints, and virtually every property already has the infrastructure in place to be its own mini-charging point. Which is why some bigger, national chains are simply including charging in all their stores to some degree.

So IMO the real questions we ought to be focusing on isn’t how many charging stations we can place right off the freeway and designed like a traditional gas station, but how we can put chargers in places where cars are typically parked for an hour or more.... basically in our pre-existing parking lots.

[Just Joe]

https://evcompare.io/charging-calculator/

[pecunia]

I no longer have a current copy of the National Electrical Code.  Is there a section on that regarding electric car chargers or would it simply be lumped with 220 volt outlets?  I guess garages could be considered wet locations so perhaps some special requirements apply to the installation.

[Paper Chaser]

Well looping back to the topic of this thread, I think one of the ways that EVs can finally become popular in the US is when more places of business have chargers available.  Perhaps the driver would be new regulations (e.g. “all commercial parking-lots larger than 20 spaces must have at least X spaces equipped to charge EVs”), or maybe employers will just offer them as responsible entities as mine has....  I don’t know.

As you pointed out, even a ‘standard’ 120v outlet will give an employee 30+ miles over the course of a work day, plenty for most commutes. For parking lots with street-lights its an easy change-over.

What frustrates me about the discussion over charging is that people’s mind-set is so conditioned to going to the gas station to get fuel that we’re stuck in that mode — most of the discussion continues to be around a network of fast-chargers located and laid out like traditional service stations. Gasoline pumps were installed in special service stations because they are hazardous and explosive substances which needed special properties to house them.  EVs have no such constraints, and virtually every property already has the infrastructure in place to be its own mini-charging point. Which is why some bigger, national chains are simply including charging in all their stores to some degree.

So IMO the real questions we ought to be focusing on isn’t how many charging stations we can place right off the freeway and designed like a traditional gas station, but how we can put chargers in places where cars are typically parked for an hour or more.... basically in our pre-existing parking lots.

Agreed on all counts.

My employer has recently unveiled a plan to reduce resource consumption significantly in the coming decades. I've been considering suggesting some outlets be installed into the lightpoles at work as a fairly inexpensive way to promote EV charging, even if it's just 120v. I do wonder if a lot of those outlets would be co-opted by diesel owners in the colder months though. And there's always the question of "who pays for it?"

[nereo]

Just posting to ask if users have a favorite app for finding public L2 chargers in the US + Canada...

[Syonyk]

Plugshare.

Though the effective per-kWh fees on most of the public chargers are obscene and I almost never use them beyond a few free-as-in-beer ones in downtown Caldwell and Boise, and the one I put in at our church.  That one is nominally a per-kWh fee, based on time ("Your vehicle charges at 3.3kW, you want 2 hours, so here's the cost regardless of what you actually use"), but once EVMatch stops giving us free service, I'm going to drop then and just keep it free.  Their management fees at $5/mo for a non-profit rather substantially exceed our monthly power costs on the charger, and most of the people charging are myself and the other Volt owner at the church.  I eventually plan to hang solar on that roof section as well.

[pecunia]

I don't own an electric car.  I was parked next to a Chevy Bolt at the local grocery store.  He had one of the store's chargers plugged in.  I was very surprised when he told me there was no cost.  It was a Meijer's store.  How prevalent is that becoming?  It's like free gas.

[nereo]

I don't own an electric car.  I was parked next to a Chevy Bolt at the local grocery store.  He had one of the store's chargers plugged in.  I was very surprised when he told me there was no cost.  It was a Meijer's store.  How prevalent is that becoming?  It's like free gas.

There are several in my area, which is pretty small town. Two breweries and our big grocery store.
It actually makes a lot of business sense for a lot of places. Commercial electricity here is high at around 12¢. An L2 charger might put out 7.3kw, so that’s 87¢ to get someone to come to your establishment and stay for one hour. If you were a bar owner or shopping mall or grocery store, would you pay someone 83¢ to ensure they spent an hour there?  I would.

Would you favor one grocery store over another because they offer free charging? I do. Is it financially smart for me to favor one over the other simply for the free charge? Probably not... but I always leeches feeling happy, which is the biggest benefit of all to the business owners.

[kenmoremmm]

don't forget capital cost of installing the charging station. not cheap.

[nereo]

don't forget capital cost of installing the charging station. not cheap.

I guess it depends on your perspective. It costs a few grand to install an L2, but for a lot of businesses that’s less than their monthly advertising budget.  Our state offers 30% rebate, which defers a lot of the upfront cost.  But it’s certainly not nothing.

[BudgetSlasher]

don't forget capital cost of installing the charging station. not cheap.

In the scheme of things? Not really. Looks like a true commercial unit L2 is 3-6 grand (at least that is what I could get one on Amazon for) plus installation.Given that an L2 charger is 240v on a 40-to-60 amp breaker, the install cost is nowhere near the cost of an rapid charger. As an aside, our home charger is a 32 amp L2 charger on a 40 amp breaker, the entire installation cost sub-1k.

It looks like there is a federal tax credit for a business installing an ev charger ... a quick google seems to indicate 30%. Add it additional state tax incentives or grants. Then the cost looks more reasonable to attract clients.

If that reduced cost is part of a business loan that spans 3 to 25 years ... balanced against the potential to attract customers. Then again EV's are not always about the money, at least not today.

On the other end of the spectrum it looks like (based on a quick google) you can lease a commercial station for 3-to-6 dollars a day (~1,100 to ~2,200 a year).

[Syonyk]

I was very surprised when he told me there was no cost.  It was a Meijer's store.  How prevalent is that becoming?  It's like free gas.

Less common than I'd like it to be, but it's still a thing.  It's a dirt cheap way to get moderate-to-higher income individuals to your store at the moment, and the increased traffic to the store is almost certainly going to outweigh any increased power costs, especially if you use slower charging rates (240V/16A/3.8kW is my preferred rate for free charging).

It actually makes a lot of business sense for a lot of places. Commercial electricity here is high at around 12¢. An L2 charger might put out 7.3kw, so that’s 87¢ to get someone to come to your establishment and stay for one hour. If you were a bar owner or shopping mall or grocery store, would you pay someone 83¢ to ensure they spent an hour there?  I would.

Absolutely.  It's far cheaper than most other methods of advertising and customer acquisition, and they're likely to be "sticky" - not just show up once and bounce.

don't forget capital cost of installing the charging station. not cheap.

Well... that depends, doesn't it?

A typical "high end" L2 station, with payment integrated, revenue grade metering (so you can charge per kWh delivered, I think it's a 1% tolerance), 40A or so, is a $2k-4k unit (they tend to be awfully "contact us for a quote"), with a monthly management fee on the order of $20-$40, or perhaps somewhat higher.  You'll need a 50A circuit for running that, on 6 or 8 AWG.

Drop back to a "dumb" unit, 16A, no metering, just an always on plug, and you can get them for radically less.  $200 for a home grade unit, a bit more for a commercial unit.  No management fees, no billing to handle, just charging.  Plus, 12AWG is just fine for it, and you don't even need to run a neutral for a dedicated charger circuit.

At least out here, $20/mo in management fees is 200kWh, or 52 hours of 3.8kW charging.

I've had our church charger in for well over a year, and it's not passed enough power to justify a $5/mo management fee.  We're getting the service for free, but as soon as they try to charge me, I'm cancelling.

I've written more detail on the topic here as well: https://www.sevarg.net/2020/04/27/slow-dumb-charging-quit-charging-for-ev/

But I see slow, dumb, free charging as the far better option than expensive, metered charging.  It literally works out cheaper in many cases, even if you're giving power away for free.

[BicycleB]

@Syonyk, what a cool case! Thanks for explaining the economics there.

I love that it's actually cheaper not to charge.

[Syonyk]

@Syonyk, what a cool case! Thanks for explaining the economics there.

No problem.  I like to sit down with the math on stuff when I can.

I love that it's actually cheaper not to charge.

At some point, cost recovery may start to look reasonable, but I'd rather not go that route.  Unfortunately, companies like ChargePoint (who are the flagship "high cost, cost recovery L2 charging stations" company) are trying to ensure that people are so scared of "paying for other people's power" that, why, of course you should spend more money on RFID/App based charging stations and accounts and management fees and the works.  Even if it costs you more.  They make nice hardware, and they do a properly solid job of testing it, but it's trying to solve a problem that I simply don't think needs solving.

But to give you an idea...

I've got a Gen 1 Volt, which charges at 3.3kW.  It's a slower charging EV, certainly, but it charges the pack in 3 hours at full tilt, which is perfectly sane (PHEV, I've got 30-35 miles on battery then unlimited range on gas).

The nearest charging station to the one I put in town charges $2/hr + $0.20/kWh.  This means, for me, an hour of charging is $2.67 - for 3.3kWh of power, or an eye-watering $0.80/kWh.  Local power cost is $0.10/kWh...  In more useful terms, for an hour of charging, which gets me about 10 miles of range, I could also just go buy a gallon of gas, which gets me 30-40 miles of range.  Pass.

I'm excited to see that some of the newer charging stations listed are free in the area, and I may have go to frequent a few of the places, for the sole purpose of telling them I appreciate it. :)

[Just Joe]

Thank you for the math.

[tj]

@Syonyk, what a cool case! Thanks for explaining the economics there.

No problem.  I like to sit down with the math on stuff when I can.

I love that it's actually cheaper not to charge.

At some point, cost recovery may start to look reasonable, but I'd rather not go that route.  Unfortunately, companies like ChargePoint (who are the flagship "high cost, cost recovery L2 charging stations" company) are trying to ensure that people are so scared of "paying for other people's power" that, why, of course you should spend more money on RFID/App based charging stations and accounts and management fees and the works.  Even if it costs you more.  They make nice hardware, and they do a properly solid job of testing it, but it's trying to solve a problem that I simply don't think needs solving.

But to give you an idea...

I've got a Gen 1 Volt, which charges at 3.3kW.  It's a slower charging EV, certainly, but it charges the pack in 3 hours at full tilt, which is perfectly sane (PHEV, I've got 30-35 miles on battery then unlimited range on gas).

The nearest charging station to the one I put in town charges $2/hr + $0.20/kWh.  This means, for me, an hour of charging is $2.67 - for 3.3kWh of power, or an eye-watering $0.80/kWh.  Local power cost is $0.10/kWh...  In more useful terms, for an hour of charging, which gets me about 10 miles of range, I could also just go buy a gallon of gas, which gets me 30-40 miles of range.  Pass.

I'm excited to see that some of the newer charging stations listed are free in the area, and I may have go to frequent a few of the places, for the sole purpose of telling them I appreciate it. :)

Does this mean it could make sense to buy  a subsidized PHEV and literally never charge it?

[Chaplin]

I have put about 45,000km on my EV in the 2.5 years I've had it and my electricity bills have continued to go down each year. In the summer I barely every plug it in at home. The town where I work has some free L2 chargers (6 to 7 kW). About once per week I park at one in the morning and walk 15 minutes to work. Then at lunch I walk back to collect the car after charging for four or five hours. That just about covers my use for the week and I get a pleasant walk out of it. It costs the town perhaps $3.00 when I do this, but because of that walk I stop at the local grocery store, used book store, and a few other places far more often than I would otherwise.

In the winter I do plug in at home and have the car start charging at about 3:00am just to top up a bit each day, but still get most of my charging for free as above.

I think the town is getting its money's worth even while making the charging free. However, in general free is a terrible price because it distorts behavior. I certainly could charge more at home and still be saving significantly compared to buying gas, but this extra savings, plus the nice walk, plus enjoying getting something for free, makes it worthwhile to me. I believe they should start charging eventually, and that if they did I would probably use it a lot less often, but currently it probably makes sense to keep it free since the demand is still fairly low and the capital cost of a "dumb" plug is much lower than a unit that can deal with billing.

Interestingly, just before COVID hit, the free chargers were occupied more and more often so it was getting hard to score one. That's a sign that it's time to start charging. So far, the pandemic has left them far more available again, but soon it will be back to higher use.

When you have to pay to charge, the system that's installed makes a big difference. There's a mall nearby that used to have six EV charging spots with ChargePoint stations. They were still free but the infrastructure was in place for them to start charging for the service any time. For some reason the mall switched to another model that nobody seems to be able to make work (crappy mobile app, etc.) and now those same spots are pretty much always empty even though it's still free to charge, assuming you can make the app work. The ideal is that any charging station "handshakes" with your car when you plug it in and makes the billing process seamless, but so far that seems limited to Tesla's superchargers. Perhaps others like BCHydro's fast chargers or Electrify America/Canada do that, but I've never tried either of those.

Incidentally, I've never seen the need to use anything beyond 120V at home, so no expensive electrical work needed. If I were to plug in as soon as I got home I could add over 80km range for the next day but my round-trip commute is only 50km. If I ever need to charge faster there are multiple options within a few km of me.

I'm FIRE'ing in a few months so my routine of charging for free once per week while at work will change, but even if 100% of my charging is at home it's still one quarter to one sixth of the cost of gas for the same distance.

[Chaplin]

Does this mean it could make sense to buy  a subsidized PHEV and literally never charge it?

Sadly, I believe that's been a concern in the UK and perhaps other areas. If you were to buy one as an individual it would still make sense to charge it, but when companies buy them as work vehicles the actual drivers have no incentive to charge versus fill up since they're not the ones that see the difference in price between the gas and electricity.

[Syonyk]

Does this mean it could make sense to buy  a subsidized PHEV and literally never charge it?

You could, plenty of people do (based on used Volt lifetime fuel economy values), but it's still pretty stupid.  I think they're mostly "company cars" that have a gas card.  It still gets the tax credit, but I've no idea why you'd do that sort of thing on purpose.

My point was to observe that public paid charging is obscene.  If I charge at home, that 10kWh/35 miles is $1, vs $2.[whatever gas is right now].  It's less than half the energy cost, before getting into extended oil change intervals and such.

If you're never going to charge it, you're better off with a pure hybrid (Prius or such), over a PHEV.  The pure hybrids tend to get better fuel economy on the gas engine.  They're lighter than a PHEV, and typically have somewhat fancier engines.  The Gen 1 Volt gets about 35mpg on gas, the Priuses are up in the mid-50s in the same conditions.  However, since we plug in regularly, our actual fuel burn is about 25% what a Prius would burn for our driving (miles per gallon gas used since we got the car is up around 200 - it's not a straight up mpg comparison because it uses electricity).

I think the town is getting its money's worth even while making the charging free. However, in general free is a terrible price because it distorts behavior. I certainly could charge more at home and still be saving significantly compared to buying gas, but this extra savings, plus the nice walk, plus enjoying getting something for free, makes it worthwhile to me.

Would you still do it as much if it were only a 3.8kW charger?  I feel like that's a good middle - cheap to implement, and just a hair annoying if you're trying to fully charge a BEV from it, which I'm fine with for free infrastructure.

...but currently it probably makes sense to keep it free since the demand is still fairly low and the capital cost of a "dumb" plug is much lower than a unit that can deal with billing.

But the difference between a dumb EVSE and a billing-capable one is so massive that they'd be better off just running more circuits and putting in more dumb chargers.

A single outlet Chargepoint is around $5k (found some pricing), the dual outlet ones are about $7k.  Plus wiring.

Interestingly, just before COVID hit, the free chargers were occupied more and more often so it was getting hard to score one. That's a sign that it's time to start charging.

Or just add more.  I really don't think "Putting in expensive units, then paying the monthly management fee, before anyone passes a single expensive kWh" is the right path.  You'll drop use, certainly, but it will end up costing more in the end, for radically less utilization.  People like me (3.3kW charging) simply do not charge at any of those stations in public.  I'll burn gas instead at a third the cost, and with the longer range BEVs, they don't charge either.  The market for those is roughly "Leafs that got caught short and have to charge."  That's a far smaller market than "Anyone with an EV who happens to be shopping."

When you have to pay to charge, the system that's installed makes a big difference. There's a mall nearby that used to have six EV charging spots with ChargePoint stations. They were still free but the infrastructure was in place for them to start charging for the service any time. For some reason the mall switched to another model that nobody seems to be able to make work (crappy mobile app, etc.) and now those same spots are pretty much always empty even though it's still free to charge, assuming you can make the app work.

So they've spent a ton of money (twice!) compared to dumb charging points, and they still don't work or get used.  Seems dumb to me.

The ideal is that any charging station "handshakes" with your car when you plug it in and makes the billing process seamless, but so far that seems limited to Tesla's superchargers. Perhaps others like BCHydro's fast chargers or Electrify America/Canada do that, but I've never tried either of those.

AC charging doesn't really have a great way to do that over the J1772 port, and most EVs don't have the car-side communication ability to handle that anyway.  DC fast charging has the option, though I'm not sure how frequently it's used.  Most people seem dead set on implementing ISO 15118, which... I have my opinions on, none of them particularly high.

Incidentally, I've never seen the need to use anything beyond 120V at home, so no expensive electrical work needed. If I were to plug in as soon as I got home I could add over 80km range for the next day but my round-trip commute is only 50km. If I ever need to charge faster there are multiple options within a few km of me.

The main advantage of 240V at home (and it's easy to swap a 120V circuit over to 240V, if you disconnect the other outlets or switch them for 240V outlets) is that on most EVs, the charging efficiency is higher.  The converters are a bit more efficient, and you don't spend nearly as much of the transmitted energy heating the pack (percentage-wise).  On a 1440W charging budget, in the cold, 500+W of that can go to just pack heating to maintain charging temperatures.  On 240V, the same power going to heat the pack is a far lower percentage.  It's not a big deal, and 120V charging works well for a lot of people, but going from 120V/12A to 240V/16A (or even 240V/12A, as some included chargers let you do) is a nice jump.

[Chaplin]

Interestingly, just before COVID hit, the free chargers were occupied more and more often so it was getting hard to score one. That's a sign that it's time to start charging.

Or just add more.  I really don't think "Putting in expensive units, then paying the monthly management fee, before anyone passes a single expensive kWh" is the right path.  You'll drop use, certainly, but it will end up costing more in the end, for radically less utilization.  People like me (3.3kW charging) simply do not charge at any of those stations in public.  I'll burn gas instead at a third the cost, and with the longer range BEVs, they don't charge either.  The market for those is roughly "Leafs that got caught short and have to charge."  That's a far smaller market than "Anyone with an EV who happens to be shopping."

It's a good point. I haven't looked closely at the $/kWh rates since there are still many free options. Above a certain (low) point it definitely makes no sense for someone to plug in unless they're at risk of being stranded. There was some news lately about Ionity in Europe starting to charge 0.71 Euros/kWh which would will likely massively limit usage. Locally, it's probably the politics of it that will limit expansion of free charging even if the math makes it more sensible to add more free units than paid units. It will be interesting to see what level of penetration will make paying to charge absolutely necessary, but we're probably many years from that point.

When you have to pay to charge, the system that's installed makes a big difference. There's a mall nearby that used to have six EV charging spots with ChargePoint stations. They were still free but the infrastructure was in place for them to start charging for the service any time. For some reason the mall switched to another model that nobody seems to be able to make work (crappy mobile app, etc.) and now those same spots are pretty much always empty even though it's still free to charge, assuming you can make the app work.

So they've spent a ton of money (twice!) compared to dumb charging points, and they still don't work or get used.  Seems dumb to me.

Yep, pretty dumb and sad to see. Two years ago they were heavily used; now, in an area that is seeing decent BEV growth they sit empty.

Incidentally, I've never seen the need to use anything beyond 120V at home, so no expensive electrical work needed. If I were to plug in as soon as I got home I could add over 80km range for the next day but my round-trip commute is only 50km. If I ever need to charge faster there are multiple options within a few km of me.

The main advantage of 240V at home (and it's easy to swap a 120V circuit over to 240V, if you disconnect the other outlets or switch them for 240V outlets) is that on most EVs, the charging efficiency is higher.  The converters are a bit more efficient, and you don't spend nearly as much of the transmitted energy heating the pack (percentage-wise).  On a 1440W charging budget, in the cold, 500+W of that can go to just pack heating to maintain charging temperatures.  On 240V, the same power going to heat the pack is a far lower percentage.  It's not a big deal, and 120V charging works well for a lot of people, but going from 120V/12A to 240V/16A (or even 240V/12A, as some included chargers let you do) is a nice jump.

Yes, it works well for the situation I'm in. I'll be FIREing in a few months so my routine of charging occasionally while at work will go away and upgrading to 240V at home will probably make sense. We live in one of those areas where permits and electrical work are on the more expensive/annoying side so I haven't looked at the costs yet. We're also considering building a garage so I've been holding off on adding an outlet that would soon be made redundant by building the garage with charging in mind. My main point was was that it's been easy and without inconvenience to use 120V only at home, despite the efficiency hit.

An acquaintance had mentioned that they had wanted a BEV but the problems with getting 240V outlet at their place is what had made them decide against it. And maybe in their case it wouldn't have been convenient or possible to use only 120, but they were surprised that I had no complaints about doing it that way.

[Syonyk]

It will be interesting to see what level of penetration will make paying to charge absolutely necessary, but we're probably many years from that point.

I don't think that point happens.  Look far north, and just about every parking spot has an outlet for block heaters, because when it's below -40, very few things start without being plugged in.  A block heater pulls a good fraction of what an EV charger can pull (I'm pretty sure my truck pulls 750-800W), and I'm not sure if you can really double up on circuits with them.  In any case, they're just part of the parking infrastructure.

I'd hope that by the time it's an issue, apartments have charging outlets, and someone has figured out curbside infrastructure.  The real issue is the rollout of stuff like that - if there are outlets everywhere, it's no problem.  It's when there are only outlets some places, with more demand than supply, that you have problems.

We could also do a lot with solar carports in a lot of places and limited interconnect capacity.  They'll feed the grid some, they can pull something from the grid, but generally just work locally.

We're also considering building a garage so I've been holding off on adding an outlet that would soon be made redundant by building the garage with charging in mind. My main point was was that it's been easy and without inconvenience to use 120V only at home, despite the efficiency hit.

As long as it doesn't get too cold, 120V works fine.  Don't mention EV charging when you talk about the garage with contractors.  Just say you want a 14-50 or two in there for machinery.  The "Tesla Tax" when you talk about EV charging is very real in some places (a $500 outlet run magically turns into $5000).

[pecunia]

"As long as it doesn't get too cold, 120V works fine.  Don't mention EV charging when you talk about the garage with contractors.  Just say you want a 14-50 or two in there for machinery.  The "Tesla Tax" when you talk about EV charging is very real in some places (a $500 outlet run magically turns into $5000)."

Are they that different than a dryer outlet?

[Syonyk]

Are they that different than a dryer outlet?

Not at all.  The 14-50 is the standard 240V/split phase plug for dryer hookups, big air compressors, power splitter boxes for workshops, etc.  It's a 50A plug (so rated for 40A continuous, which EV charging is) that brings both lines, a neutral, and a ground.  You can get 120V or 240V off it, vs some 240V-only plugs out there.

It's the largest "standard plug" you'll find in the US for things, so it's commonly used for EV chargers and the like.

[JLee]

Are they that different than a dryer outlet?

Not at all.  The 14-50 is the standard 240V/split phase plug for dryer hookups, big air compressors, power splitter boxes for workshops, etc.  It's a 50A plug (so rated for 40A continuous, which EV charging is) that brings both lines, a neutral, and a ground.  You can get 120V or 240V off it, vs some 240V-only plugs out there.

It's the largest "standard plug" you'll find in the US for things, so it's commonly used for EV chargers and the like.

Also welders and RV hookups - super common.