Author Topic: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?  (Read 539133 times)

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #450 on: March 12, 2021, 08:28:16 AM »
I'm considering a Leaf and then putting a trailer hitch on it for a little 5x8 ft trailer. That'll carry most everything I need to carry home from the hardware store. Total load would be less than five adults inside the car.

A Plus has a ~200 mile range. Even if it cut my range by 50% - and it won't - I only need 30 miles to get to the hardware store and back.

dcheesi

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #451 on: March 12, 2021, 08:37:32 AM »
I'd like to put a Nissan Leaf battery at my house for backup power.

Can't justify the cost though. 62 KWH would last us for a couple of days if we were careful.

Much cheaper to recharge than to buy propane to power a generator.

saw this the other day. https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/interactive/2021/climate-solutions-electric-batteries/?itid=hp_national-0109
Interesting. Also, that's the same community featured in the movie Nomadland.

lemonlyman

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #452 on: May 22, 2021, 10:01:00 AM »
 F-150 Lightning is a slam dunk for Ford. I’m impressed with the price to features, and I think they’ll sell a lot of them.

nereo

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #453 on: May 22, 2021, 10:12:51 AM »
F-150 Lightning is a slam dunk for Ford. I’m impressed with the price to features, and I think they’ll sell a lot of them.

I have mixed feelings with the Lightning.  On one hand it’s impressive on all fronts and I anticipate it’l sell like hot cakes.  Hopefully it will tamp out this persistent narrative about BEVs not being a better alternative to ICE vehicles.  OTOH I’m pretty certain it will lock us into a nation of large pickups for another few decades.

jinga nation

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #454 on: May 22, 2021, 10:42:40 AM »
This is going to be great. Ford firing the first shot. GM, Chrysler (whatever they're called now), Toyota, Nissan will respond. Competition is great.
An electric small truck (like a Ford e-Ranger) would be my pick. It will happen, just needs time.

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #455 on: May 22, 2021, 10:45:01 AM »
This is going to be great. Ford firing the first shot. GM, Chrysler (whatever they're called now), Toyota, Nissan will respond. Competition is great.
An electric small truck (like a Ford e-Ranger) would be my pick. It will happen, just needs time.
GMC already announced the Hummer.  I hope Toyota enters the game one of these days.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #456 on: May 22, 2021, 11:26:34 AM »
This is going to be great. Ford firing the first shot. GM, Chrysler (whatever they're called now), Toyota, Nissan will respond. Competition is great.
An electric small truck (like a Ford e-Ranger) would be my pick. It will happen, just needs time.

An electric Ridgeline would get my attention...

jinga nation

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #457 on: May 22, 2021, 11:33:27 AM »
This is going to be great. Ford firing the first shot. GM, Chrysler (whatever they're called now), Toyota, Nissan will respond. Competition is great.
An electric small truck (like a Ford e-Ranger) would be my pick. It will happen, just needs time.
GMC already announced the Hummer.  I hope Toyota enters the game one of these days.
True, but I was talking mainstream work trucks like the Sierra/Silverado. Nissan could leverage tech developed for the Leaf into a Titan. Similarly e-Prius tech into a Tundra. Does Honda have a true electric vehicle? I know they have hybrids. They haven't been gung-ho on full electric.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #458 on: May 22, 2021, 11:36:37 AM »
The Leaf's future is short. The aircooled battery's moment is over.

Next up: the Nissan Ariya

BlueMR2

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #459 on: May 22, 2021, 12:29:02 PM »
The Leaf's future is short. The aircooled battery's moment is over.

It's too bad even though I get why.  I just have such terrible luck with water coolant systems that I really, REALLY don't want to deal with one again.

StashingAway

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #460 on: May 22, 2021, 01:20:46 PM »
It is a shame that in the US we went with 110v for residential plugs instead of the 230/208/240 available elsewhere.

I have to pick at this little misunderstanding.

Residential households in the US all have 240V running into them. We just split that 240 once in the box to two separate lines at 120V. The reason we do this is basically tradition: 120V is safer to work with in a house, and we were less limited by material prices than other countries when the standards developed. It costs more in copper to run lower voltage wires.

From the box back, our grid is the same as every other country. It's a nearly moot point. Every US household has the potential to run a 240V circuit should they need to (limited by the main line but not the voltage).

For a level 2 charger in your house OR one in the UK, Australia, etc., you need a dedicated install because even at 240V, you still need a 40-80A circuit. In countries with 240V household electricity, their max residential breaker size is usually 10-15A.

For level 1 charging it does make some difference. In the US, we are limited to 120V/16A (for a 20A garage circuit) at 2kW charging. In countries with 240V they usually can charge at about 3kW. But both of these, in my opinion, are "trickle charge" rates. Meaning if I had an electric vehicle, it would make no difference in lifestyle. Either it needs an overnight charge or it doesn't. If a person needs fast(ish) charging, they're going to need to install a dedicated circuit no matter what country they are in.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2021, 01:23:21 PM by StashingAway »

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #461 on: May 22, 2021, 02:23:50 PM »
Is it really any worse than installing an electric dryer circuit?  I've done that.

nereo

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #462 on: May 22, 2021, 02:49:29 PM »
Is it really any worse than installing an electric dryer circuit?  I've done that.
Nope. Same thing.

Just adding to stachingaway’s excellent post, virtually every hole in the US also has higher voltage circuits. On electric water heaters, heat pumps, dryers...

As soynyk wrote on another post, it’s both simple and cheap to install “dumb chargers” - 208v/240v on a standard 20A circuit which will give you 3.8kw on a cheap 16A charger and 12 gauge wire.

Abe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #463 on: May 22, 2021, 08:02:34 PM »
Is it really any worse than installing an electric dryer circuit?  I've done that.
Nope. Same thing.

Just adding to stachingaway’s excellent post, virtually every hole in the US also has higher voltage circuits. On electric water heaters, heat pumps, dryers...

As soynyk wrote on another post, it’s both simple and cheap to install “dumb chargers” - 208v/240v on a standard 20A circuit which will give you 3.8kw on a cheap 16A charger and 12 gauge wire.

My circuit breaker box is literally on the opposite corner of the house from the garage. Any recommendations on how I could get a circuit through, or should I get an electrician to figure it out? There's no accessible crawl space, unfortunately. I honestly don't drive enough to need a faster charger, so may not be worth the effort/cost.

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #464 on: May 22, 2021, 08:26:59 PM »
The routing of your circuit will depend on the geometry of your home.  I will note that if the circuit is routed a long distance that voltage drop need be considered and conductor size be de-rated and resized accordingly.  If I recall correctly the code allowed 3 percent voltage drop to the device.

Abe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #465 on: May 22, 2021, 09:32:26 PM »
The routing of your circuit will depend on the geometry of your home.  I will note that if the circuit is routed a long distance that voltage drop need be considered and conductor size be de-rated and resized accordingly.  If I recall correctly the code allowed 3 percent voltage drop to the device.

Thanks for the information. This is already above my comfort level with wiring so will just stick with the standard circuit.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #466 on: May 23, 2021, 12:15:56 PM »
Running a 220V charger circuit is no worse than trying to power an electric stove, dryer, or water heater at the opposite corner of the house.

Electrician would just run a new #10 wire (I'd guess) right along with the other wires in your house. In some houses, that is through the attic, in some houses that's under the floor.

I'm running a new circuit for my 220V air compressor. Same problem. Breakers are at the opposite side of the house. I'll run the new wiring under the 1st floor with the other wiring. And air - so I can run air tools at that end of the house too.

Chris22

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #467 on: June 04, 2021, 08:33:27 AM »
Well I just ordered a new EV, my first. Technically it’s a PHEV, a plug in hybrid, but aside from the occasional long trip I’ll never need gas. It has a 21-mile range which should cover about 98% of my driving, plus give me a gas engine for long trips to our cabin.

Best part is the lease rates are nuts, they’re really pushing these things.

The opposite of mustachian, but I don’t care.

(Stock picture, they haven’t built mine yet)

nereo

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #468 on: June 04, 2021, 10:15:04 AM »
When will you take delivery @Chris22 ?

Chris22

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #469 on: June 04, 2021, 11:13:20 AM »
Not sure. They quote 8-12 weeks to build it, but they’re coming out much faster than that in general. I ordered my last Jeep (that this one is replacing) and it was 3 weeks to the day from order to delivery.

nereo

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #470 on: June 04, 2021, 11:57:11 AM »
Not sure. They quote 8-12 weeks to build it, but they’re coming out much faster than that in general. I ordered my last Jeep (that this one is replacing) and it was 3 weeks to the day from order to delivery.

Hope you come back and post your thoughts about it a few weeks after you get it.  I'm not in the market for a jeep (I seldom go off-roading for one) but I still find all accounts of these new PHEVs interesting.

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #471 on: June 04, 2021, 02:30:53 PM »
I think you'll have a lot of fun with that Jeep.  I think the folks in Toledo have worked hard on getting the thing right.  If I wasn't so cheap, I'd buy one myself.

Chris22

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #472 on: June 04, 2021, 02:55:51 PM »
I think you'll have a lot of fun with that Jeep.  I think the folks in Toledo have worked hard on getting the thing right.  If I wasn't so cheap, I'd buy one myself.

I have a 2018 model that I leased, that lease is ending hence the new one. The 218 was my first Jeep, and I have loved it, it’s been fantastic, so much so that a relative is buying mine off the leasing company.

Syonyk

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #473 on: June 05, 2021, 08:59:07 AM »
I have a 2018 model that I leased, that lease is ending hence the new one.

*checks which forum he's on*

Enjoy, I wouldn't mind a review of it, but... man, that's an expensive set of ways to have a Jeep.  Get a 90s one that's already been modded for most of what you want to do, and get an efficient daily driver (Volt or something).

Chris22

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #474 on: June 05, 2021, 09:47:40 AM »
I have a 2018 model that I leased, that lease is ending hence the new one.

*checks which forum he's on*

Enjoy, I wouldn't mind a review of it, but... man, that's an expensive set of ways to have a Jeep.  Get a 90s one that's already been modded for most of what you want to do, and get an efficient daily driver (Volt or something).

Like I said, not mustachian, but hey, see my signature.

In reality, we’ve owned lots of old Jeeps, and because of the high resale value, Jeeps lease very cheaply.  I’ve spent a fair amount maintaining the old ones and am happy to drive a new one. Plus the PHEV is new tech not available on the used market. I wouldn’t be surprised if this one is trouble free if I don’t end up buying it. My current one was basically a trial to see if I liked the new model.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #475 on: June 07, 2021, 08:50:24 AM »
Where did they hide the battery on the new Jeep?

Paper Chaser

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #476 on: June 08, 2021, 03:09:21 AM »
Where did they hide the battery on the new Jeep?



Body-on-frame vehicles often have lots of space available underneath to put batteries with minimal changes to the design. The new F150 Lightning EV is similar

jrhampt

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #477 on: June 08, 2021, 09:20:56 AM »
Very cool!  We have an old rubicon from the early 2000s and it's lasted us quite a while.  A bit jealous that now there's a plug in hybrid option, but I doubt we'd ever lease one and probably wouldn't buy one outright (53k!), either.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #478 on: June 08, 2021, 10:06:07 AM »
I saw on "Transport Evolved" last night that with discounts, people can buy a new Chevy Bolt for $25K at Costco.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlYB3KReoYc


jrhampt

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #479 on: June 08, 2021, 02:19:24 PM »
I saw on "Transport Evolved" last night that with discounts, people can buy a new Chevy Bolt for $25K at Costco.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlYB3KReoYc

OH!!

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #480 on: June 08, 2021, 02:58:46 PM »
Is there an outlet on the Jeep so that if you go camping out in the bush you can plug lighting and some electrical items into it?

gooki

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #481 on: June 08, 2021, 04:19:30 PM »
FWIW Tesla does/did give away destination chargers to businesses. So that's a couple of hundred dollars they dont have to spend to deliver slow charging.

Those chargers are also non proprietary, so can charge most EV models.

Syonyk

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #482 on: June 08, 2021, 04:47:56 PM »
FWIW Tesla does/did give away destination chargers to businesses. So that's a couple of hundred dollars they dont have to spend to deliver slow charging.

Those chargers are also non proprietary, so can charge most EV models.

I don't believe Tesla Destination Chargers are J1772.  I was fairly certain they were still the proprietary Tesla connector.

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #483 on: June 08, 2021, 05:02:44 PM »
FWIW Tesla does/did give away destination chargers to businesses. So that's a couple of hundred dollars they dont have to spend to deliver slow charging.

Those chargers are also non proprietary, so can charge most EV models.

I don't believe Tesla Destination Chargers are J1772.  I was fairly certain they were still the proprietary Tesla connector.

The last destination charger I used was a Tesla wall connector. 

gooki

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #484 on: June 08, 2021, 08:00:58 PM »
Fact correction.

Quote
The host has the option to get a destination charger with a Tesla only receptacle or a Tesla + J1772.

And if it's a Tesla only connector, other EV owners can use an adapter to connect.

Kevin S.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #485 on: June 09, 2021, 03:52:49 PM »
ev's as great as they are will not replace ice vehicles unless - battery tech / charging tech changes. Solid state batteries and graphene tech seem to be the only way (that i know of) that is going to happen.

I still think toyota is right in developing hydrogen. I think this is the way to go (with current battery tech at least)
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36341305/hydrogen-might-still-make-sense/


JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #486 on: June 09, 2021, 03:57:00 PM »
ev's as great as they are will not replace ice vehicles unless - battery tech / charging tech changes. Solid state batteries and graphene tech seem to be the only way (that i know of) that is going to happen.

I still think toyota is right in developing hydrogen. I think this is the way to go (with current battery tech at least)
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36341305/hydrogen-might-still-make-sense/

Yep, just like portable telephones will not replace landlines unless battery / charging tech changes.

Chris22

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #487 on: June 09, 2021, 04:16:05 PM »
ev's as great as they are will not replace ice vehicles unless - battery tech / charging tech changes. Solid state batteries and graphene tech seem to be the only way (that i know of) that is going to happen.

I still think toyota is right in developing hydrogen. I think this is the way to go (with current battery tech at least)
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36341305/hydrogen-might-still-make-sense/

For me the PHEV is the perfect solution. 99% of my driving is in a 5-10 mile radius from my house, so I’ll be on battery full time. The other 1% is long distance on gas.  And on battery when I get there.

nereo

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #488 on: June 09, 2021, 06:09:45 PM »
ev's as great as they are will not replace ice vehicles unless - battery tech / charging tech changes. Solid state batteries and graphene tech seem to be the only way (that i know of) that is going to happen.

I still think toyota is right in developing hydrogen. I think this is the way to go (with current battery tech at least)
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36341305/hydrogen-might-still-make-sense/

BEVs are already cheaper to own over the lifespan of the vehicle by a wide margin, and a large portion of that isn’t the petrol savings but lower maintenance. They have better performance in the kind of driving people typically do, too (eg more low end torque).  If gasoline returns to $100/barrel it’s  to further skew the cost equation towards BEVs, and as the charging network continues to get built out the charging argument also becomes less convincing.

neo von retorch

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #489 on: June 10, 2021, 08:04:14 AM »
If you think about Japanese auto manufacturer strengths, it's probably building reliable, efficient ICE vehicles. They tend to have more fuel efficient, small vehicles, so the leap to EV is smaller. But that means the benefit is smaller (particularly going from Prius hybrid or PHEV to EV). And they likely do not expect to have any advantage in battery production. So they might not have "any" clear advantage in the EV race, and putting out smaller cars can make it harder to squeeze in longer range batteries. Ford and VW have economies of scale, and American/German battery manufacturer (currently or planned). Toyota will have to lean on their economy of scale and figure out an advantage when they finally come around. But they'll also be granted a longer runway on ICE/PHEV vehicles due to their current advantages.

What's the current timeline and progression for energy density in batteries? When can a truly small car have a pretty good range (probably 300+) with a budget price tag, the way a Honda Fit can squeeze up to 400 miles out of 10 gallons of gas? The Leaf really isn't a bad size, but the high end on range is somewhere around 225 miles? (Yes, real world, enough for most people, but people are all turning to big 4-door trucks and crossover SUVs because they want to cover "every" use case on their one big car purchase.) The Model 3 LR looks to get about 350 miles, but it's also a $50k vehicle. My personal lifetime budget for sedans is $0 because sedans are dumb :) But I'm just one guy. Give me a proper (good looking, got to cover that use case) hatchback that fits 8' lumber with the hatch closed, and gets me to my dad's and back on one charge. Then compete with the $20k I paid for my car. That's all I ask. We'll get there, but not until a lot more of the cars being sold each day are EV. (Looks like 1.8% of vehicles sold in the US in 2020 were EVs.)

RWD

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #490 on: June 10, 2021, 08:29:53 AM »
What's the current timeline and progression for energy density in batteries?
Solid state batteries might become a thing in 2024.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KomsqHmSX1Y

Syonyk

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #491 on: June 10, 2021, 10:45:41 AM »
Solid state batteries might become a thing in 2024.

Which is about the same "3-5 years away from production" they were 5-7 years ago, for reference.

RWD

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #492 on: June 10, 2021, 11:06:15 AM »
Solid state batteries might become a thing in 2024.

Which is about the same "3-5 years away from production" they were 5-7 years ago, for reference.

I'm not holding my breath. But Toyota is supposed to unveil a prototype vehicle this year.

PathtoFIRE

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #493 on: June 10, 2021, 11:49:34 AM »
For me the PHEV is the perfect solution. 99% of my driving is in a 5-10 mile radius from my house, so I’ll be on battery full time. The other 1% is long distance on gas.  And on battery when I get there.

I see what you're saying, and it makes a certain sense. But if you stated this situation another way: my car needs a separate second ICE engine for 1% of my driving needs; then I think you can see why some of us might also reasonably disagree. I mean you're not wrong given the reality of the world and what types of vehicles are currently available, but it's just maddening that a PHEV would make sense at all except during a very narrow historical time period as we transition over...but that transition is taking way too long!

Paper Chaser

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #494 on: June 10, 2021, 12:18:13 PM »
For me the PHEV is the perfect solution. 99% of my driving is in a 5-10 mile radius from my house, so I’ll be on battery full time. The other 1% is long distance on gas.  And on battery when I get there.

I see what you're saying, and it makes a certain sense. But if you stated this situation another way: my car needs a separate second ICE engine for 1% of my driving needs; then I think you can see why some of us might also reasonably disagree. I mean you're not wrong given the reality of the world and what types of vehicles are currently available, but it's just maddening that a PHEV would make sense at all except during a very narrow historical time period as we transition over...but that transition is taking way too long!

I'd argue that PHEVs are what we need now more than BEVs. BEVs are a net gain environmentally over a standard ICE, but they're resource intensive too. Say you've got a typical long range BEV with an 85kwh battery pack and 300mile range. It does 100% of it's miles with zero tailpipe emissions, but it also hauls around a bunch of battery capacity that goes unused for most normal driving. You've fully replaced 1 ICE with 1 BEV. If it's an average American driver that's around 12k miles per year of EV driving.

But, if we split that single 85kwh battery pack into 5 smaller batteries that are put into 5 PHEVs, we'd get 5 PHEV vehicles with 21.5kwh packs (about 50-55 miles of all EV range) that would probably cover 75% or more of most people's driving. So 75% of the average 12k miles would be 9K miles per year of EV driving for each of the 5 vehicles, or a total of 45k miles of EV driving from the exact same resources for the single long range EV. You get nearly 4 times the environmental impact with the PHEVs, and you can skip the whole argument about range anxiety which like it or not keeps a lot of people from considering an EV. So you get that broader environmental impact sooner as well because people are less resistant to the purchase. If we're expecting some significant improvement in battery and/or charging tech to come in the next decade that's great. But PHEVs seem like an excellent bridge to that time, and they'd help more with environmental impact as well.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 12:26:07 PM by Paper Chaser »

nereo

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #495 on: June 10, 2021, 12:18:25 PM »
For me the PHEV is the perfect solution. 99% of my driving is in a 5-10 mile radius from my house, so I’ll be on battery full time. The other 1% is long distance on gas.  And on battery when I get there.

I see what you're saying, and it makes a certain sense. But if you stated this situation another way: my car needs a separate second ICE engine for 1% of my driving needs; then I think you can see why some of us might also reasonably disagree. I mean you're not wrong given the reality of the world and what types of vehicles are currently available, but it's just maddening that a PHEV would make sense at all except during a very narrow historical time period as we transition over...but that transition is taking way too long!

I totally get this line of thinking, and TBH it's the way I thought about the PEHV/BEV issue for several years.
But then this wonderful blog-post by @Syonyk changed my mind...

https://www.sevarg.net/2019/07/07/i-bought-used-chevy-volt-and-you-should-too/

tl;dr - despite it's drawbacks (needing BOTH an ICE and a battery pack), a PEHV allows me to do >95% of my driving on electric, and to cart around a battery pack that's about 1/5th the size (and which takes 1/5th the resources to produce). Couple that with nearly unlimited range (useful in my very rural state) and the advantages to me outweigh minor drawbacks of limited servicing on an ICE engine which operates a few miles out of every 100.

**note:  Our next vehicle will almost certainly be a pure BEV, so I'm certainly a big fan of those too.  I just don't think one should write off PEHVs for their added mechanical complexity.

AlanStache

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #496 on: June 10, 2021, 12:46:58 PM »
Are PEHV's able to drive with one of the power system inoperative?  ie if you are 100% out of gas or lost a fan belt can you still move on electric power or if the electric drive system is disabled (not just a fully drained battery) can the gas system still move the vehicle.  I could see there maybe needing to be safety disconnects but that would also seem really dumb. 

Syonyk

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #497 on: June 10, 2021, 12:50:15 PM »
...but it's just maddening that a PHEV would make sense at all except during a very narrow historical time period as we transition over...but that transition is taking way too long!

You got a couple TWh of battery you're hiding in a shed somewhere you want to share?

There is no battery fairy, and lithium packs in particular take a lot of energy to both mine the materials and produce the cells.  There's a lot of work going into improving that, but the amount of material and energy required to produce a large, long range battery pack is actually quite substantial.  Some years back, I messed around with the numbers and figured out that you could ride an ebike about a million miles on the energy required to produce a long range pack (it was around 40MWh at the time, back in 2015).  To put things in perspective, at 4mi/kWh, the embodied energy in that pack is the same as the energy used in 160,000 miles of driving, or "several years of an all electric home's energy use."  Now, I'm willing to grant that battery production is probably a good bit more efficient in 2021 as opposed to back in 2013-2014 when I got my numbers, but the point stands: Batteries are exceedingly energy intensive.

The embodied energy in a gas tank and small internal combustion engine isn't nearly as high.  You can find production energy estimates for car, but it's far less energy required for an engine on a mass production line than for batteries, by far.

Using my local carbon intensity of 750lb/MWh, the emissions from that battery pack are ~30,000 lb CO2.  Gasoline is 19.6 lb/gallon CO2.  So, ~1530 gallons of gas to match the emissions of that pack out here, which is ~54k miles of driving.

Average US driving is around 35 miles a day, give or take.  If you are hauling 100kWh of battery pack around every day for that, you're hauling a lot of dead weight in batteries, and there's a range hit.

But, more importantly, those batteries aren't going into other vehicles.

You can build 5 Volt-style PHEVs (20kWh battery pack, say 14kWh usable energy for driving with the rest as buffers and not fully charging the pack for longevity reasons).  If you build 5 Volts, each doing 35 miles a day on battery, except for long trips, you're reducing emissions far more than a single long range BEV, unless that long range BEV is doing hundreds of miles a day.

Even if you are using gasoline for longer trips, a number of studies have concluded that total cradle to grave emissions (and $-wise TCO) for a BEV and a PHEV are pretty close.  You emit a bit more during operation, but have far less battery pack embodied energy.

If you want to make one particular point or another, you can fiddle with the numbers however you want and come up with the results you've decided you want to make (having seen one recently that assumes a battery pack requires total replacement around 100k miles to demonstrate just how horrible EVs were), but an honest accounting in my estimation ends up as "I don't have close enough error bars to make a clear argument either way."

However, in terms of practical driving requirements, it's far easier to find a gas station than a charging station, and I expect this to remain true for a long, long while.  I can drive the back roads to Arizona and not worry about finding energy.

And long term, it's far from clear that long range BEVs are going to be substantially better than a midrange EV with a range extender for long travel.  If you have 50-70 miles of battery range, then a liquid fueled range extender for long travel, you cover just about all the common uses on battery, and can still take a cross country trip without too much hassle.

I expect the usual hate from the "BEV Only!" people who don't seem to want to consider the reality that batteries don't come from the battery fairy, so... *shrug*  Bring math if you're going to do that.

//EDIT: Well, I see I got rather beat to my points, including a link to my blog post I wrote on the topic a while back... glad people can find the new location, it took Google forever to figure out my blog had moved.

Syonyk

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #498 on: June 10, 2021, 12:51:04 PM »
Are PEHV's able to drive with one of the power system inoperative?  ie if you are 100% out of gas or lost a fan belt can you still move on electric power or if the electric drive system is disabled (not just a fully drained battery) can the gas system still move the vehicle.  I could see there maybe needing to be safety disconnects but that would also seem really dumb.

At least on the Volt, yes.  It will run on battery while out of gas, and will run on the gas motor only if the battery pack has a problem, though performance is rather limited in that mode.

nereo

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #499 on: June 10, 2021, 12:53:48 PM »
Are PEHV's able to drive with one of the power system inoperative?  ie if you are 100% out of gas or lost a fan belt can you still move on electric power or if the electric drive system is disabled (not just a fully drained battery) can the gas system still move the vehicle.  I could see there maybe needing to be safety disconnects but that would also seem really dumb.

Basically yes (with a few caveats).  under normal operation the battery is never fully depleted and it will switch entirely to the gasoline engine when it gets to a certain point (it's somewhere around 15% IIRC).  There's a special feature where you can push and hold a button to get a few extra miles to get to a plug/gas-station should you ever run out of BOTH gasoline and have a depleted battery (the car will then use the remaining 15% in the battery, which isn't good for the battery, but saves you from being stuck). 

In a similar vein, when the gas tank is almost empty the car will use its decision tree to run entirely on the battery pack, saving a very small amount of gasoline in case you need to accelerate hard up a hill. I've never tried to run it with absolutely no gasoline, but it's almost impossible to do, as the car will automatically draw more and more heavily on the battery when the gas tank is almost completely empty.