Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[AlanStache]

...
Biggest issue is with trucks entering the market they don't have pull thru stalls for trucks towing trailers

I thought the idea with trucks would be to charge at the origin & destination at least in the early years and not try to charge "away from base"? 

[boarder42]

...
Biggest issue is with trucks entering the market they don't have pull thru stalls for trucks towing trailers

I thought the idea with trucks would be to charge at the origin & destination at least in the early years and not try to charge "away from base"?

I'm talking pickup trucks. Like when I want to tow my camper

[gaja]

From my experience, Tesla has built out their charging network where there's rarely a wait to get a charging spot. It seems very deliberate on their end.

Biggest issue is with trucks entering the market they don't have pull thru stalls for trucks towing trailers

Sure they have. There are some at almost all of Tesla's superchargers in Norway, and several of the other charging operators are adapting to all the people who are towing campers with their EVs. If you don't have them in the US yet, I doubt it will take Tesla many weeks to implement them since everything is tested and ready. 

As to the need for superchargers at restaurants; well, you could, if you want people to hurry up and eat. Otherwise, it is much better to install a slow or semi-slow charger so the EV driver can plug in and forget it for the rest of the evening. There will be local needs to improve the electric infrastructure, but on a regional level, EVs don't have a big impact. At least, that is the feedback from the regional grid operator for Oslo, where there are both loads of EVs, electric vans, electric buses, and electric ferries. They had calculations that showed the grid could handle it, but were surprised with how little impact everything had. Apparantly, when you have a lot of vehicles, the charging will be distributed over the day and night. They are working to get more people to charge slowly at night, to further shave the peaks.

[nereo]

From my experience, Tesla has built out their charging network where there's rarely a wait to get a charging spot. It seems very deliberate on their end.

Biggest issue is with trucks entering the market they don't have pull thru stalls for trucks towing trailers

That is an interesting case, and one I hadn’t considered.  I don;t think it is the “biggest issue” facing EV adaptation, though.

The few EV trucks hitting the road boast a 300mi range - probably 200mi hauling most trailers. Far enough for many, though certainly not enough for a few.

[boarder42]

From my experience, Tesla has built out their charging network where there's rarely a wait to get a charging spot. It seems very deliberate on their end.

Biggest issue is with trucks entering the market they don't have pull thru stalls for trucks towing trailers

That is an interesting case, and one I hadn’t considered.  I don;t think it is the “biggest issue” facing EV adaptation, though.

The few EV trucks hitting the road boast a 300mi range - probably 200mi hauling most trailers. Far enough for many, though certainly not enough for a few.

The f150 is the number one selling vehicle in the country. This is huge for adoption and most ranges are cut in half by towing. 150 vs 200 is a large difference.

[nereo]

From my experience, Tesla has built out their charging network where there's rarely a wait to get a charging spot. It seems very deliberate on their end.

Biggest issue is with trucks entering the market they don't have pull thru stalls for trucks towing trailers

That is an interesting case, and one I hadn’t considered.  I don;t think it is the “biggest issue” facing EV adaptation, though.

The few EV trucks hitting the road boast a 300mi range - probably 200mi hauling most trailers. Far enough for many, though certainly not enough for a few.

The f150 is the number one selling vehicle in the country. This is huge for adoption and most ranges are cut in half by towing. 150 vs 200 is a large difference.

Sure, they can be cut in half with a heavy trailer. Many trailers aren’t, and most owners of the F150 haven’t trailered anything.  As I said, charging with trailers is certainly something the existing charging infrastructure in the US isn’t terribly well set up to handle. I’m simply questioning how big an issue it actually is (vs perceived - much as ‘all-terrain’ is actually needed by only a very few).

[GuitarStv]

From my experience, Tesla has built out their charging network where there's rarely a wait to get a charging spot. It seems very deliberate on their end.

Biggest issue is with trucks entering the market they don't have pull thru stalls for trucks towing trailers

That is an interesting case, and one I hadn’t considered.  I don;t think it is the “biggest issue” facing EV adaptation, though.

The few EV trucks hitting the road boast a 300mi range - probably 200mi hauling most trailers. Far enough for many, though certainly not enough for a few.

The f150 is the number one selling vehicle in the country. This is huge for adoption and most ranges are cut in half by towing. 150 vs 200 is a large difference.

Sure, they can be cut in half with a heavy trailer. Many trailers aren’t, and most owners of the F150 haven’t trailered anything.  As I said, charging with trailers is certainly something the existing charging infrastructure in the US isn’t terribly well set up to handle. I’m simply questioning how big an issue it actually is (vs perceived - much as ‘all-terrain’ is actually needed by only a very few).

I'm unclear where they got the number, but this article claims that 35% of truck drivers use their truck to tow once a year or less.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-size-pickup-truck-you-need-a-cowboy-costume

So it sounds like it's probably not much of an issue.

[boarder42]

From my experience, Tesla has built out their charging network where there's rarely a wait to get a charging spot. It seems very deliberate on their end.

Biggest issue is with trucks entering the market they don't have pull thru stalls for trucks towing trailers

That is an interesting case, and one I hadn’t considered.  I don;t think it is the “biggest issue” facing EV adaptation, though.

The few EV trucks hitting the road boast a 300mi range - probably 200mi hauling most trailers. Far enough for many, though certainly not enough for a few.

The f150 is the number one selling vehicle in the country. This is huge for adoption and most ranges are cut in half by towing. 150 vs 200 is a large difference.

Sure, they can be cut in half with a heavy trailer. Many trailers aren’t, and most owners of the F150 haven’t trailered anything.  As I said, charging with trailers is certainly something the existing charging infrastructure in the US isn’t terribly well set up to handle. I’m simply questioning how big an issue it actually is (vs perceived - much as ‘all-terrain’ is actually needed by only a very few).

I'm unclear where they got the number, but this article claims that 35% of truck drivers use their truck to tow once a year or less.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-size-pickup-truck-you-need-a-cowboy-costume

So it sounds like it's probably not much of an issue.

This thread is about ev adoption. And it doesn't matter to many people who tow in low volume but if they need it one time a year and the infrastructure isn't there it won't be adopted. It's a consideration of mine between the f150 and the cybertruck. Can it make it to a lake I want to tow my boat to 1 or 2x a year with out charging it. F150 at 300 miles assuming I lose 50% towing won't cut it and turns a 2.5 hour trip into 3.5 if I have to unhook charge rehook and go. 3 hours if I can just pull thru.

Think about the range anxiety most ice owners already have when 99% of their driving is a commute well within the range of the car. Now compound it with towing range deduction and lack of infrastructure to recharge. It will inhibit adoption for most truck owners.

[pecunia]

I see lots of people who only use their trucks to haul empty space.  Looks like the orders for those new electric Ford trucks are strong.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/ford-electric-f-150-sales-70000-ceo-jim-farley

[gaja]

Most people don’t buy cars based on what they need fir everyday use, but on what they would rather be doing. That is why charging stations close to cabins, and adapted to campers, have been important to get a faster change to evs.

[habanero]

A story over here today that a lot of EVs are rated for surprisingly litte load. Don't know if US rules are the same as in Europe, but if you are five adults in a Tesla Model 3 or 4 adults with some luggage the car is outside its rated weight. It can only carry 304 kilos (669 lbs) of load in addition to the driver. Model S is rated for 329 kilos or 724 lbs. A Nissan Leaf can cary a few lbs more than the Model 3. On the other end of the spectrum a VW ID.4 can transport 514  kg or 1130 lbs, roughly same as the new Skoda Enyaq.

Might vary depending on build year - just checked the docs in my 2015 Model S at it had 408 kilos in addition to driver. Numbers above taken from the table in the article, not fact-checked by me.

[RWD]

A story over here today that a lot of EVs are rated for surprisingly litte load. Don't know if US rules are the same as in Europe, but if you are five adults in a Tesla Model 3 or 4 adults with some luggage the car is outside its rated weight. It can only carry 304 kilos (669 lbs) of load in addition to the driver. Model S is rated for 329 kilos or 724 lbs. A Nissan Leaf can cary a few lbs more than the Model 3. On the other end of the spectrum a VW ID.4 can transport 514  kg or 1130 lbs, roughly same as the new Skoda Enyaq.

Might vary depending on build year - just checked the docs in my 2015 Model S at it had 408 kilos in addition to driver. Numbers above taken from the table in the article, not fact-checked by me.

That doesn't seem right. I'm seeing 893 pounds for the Model 3 and 1,056 pounds for the Model S.

[RWD]

Nissan Leaf should have a max payload of around 1,010 pounds.

[nereo]

Nissan Leaf should have a max payload of around 1,010 pounds.

For a bit of perspective, a Honda Civic has a payload of 850lbs (385kg). 

[RWD]

I found a picture of a 2017 Model 3 (base) door sticker (the one with load and tire pressure info). GVWR of 4,806 lb. Curb weight should have been around 3,549 lb which makes the max load 1,257 lb (571 kg). I assume it does vary by year and version.

[Paper Chaser]

I found a picture of a 2017 Model 3 (base) door sticker (the one with load and tire pressure info). GVWR of 4,806 lb. Curb weight should have been around 3,549 lb which makes the max load 1,257 lb (571 kg). I assume it does vary by year and version.

I think that's a reasonable assumption. I'm guessing that just like trucks, the weight of the powertrain will impact the available payload. So a Model 3 with a big battery and dual motors (a heavier powertrain) likely has lower payload than a Model 3 with a single motor and/or smaller battery pack (lighter powertrain).

[Abe]

In the US, the VW ID.4 is rated for 1300lb, vs. 1100 for the Honda CR-V.

[habanero]

In the US, the VW ID.4 is rated for 1300lb, vs. 1100 for the Honda CR-V.

Checked the specs for ID.4 and see the same with very litte variation across the models, so the article I read might be off. At least it was for my sample of Model S which is the one I checked. Another reason might be that they have erred on the fact that the weight of the driver is included in the car's weight (as is a spare tyre and a jack). In which case it's odd as it was in a car magazine (it's called "Motor", even...), in the footnote they use the correct  definition of weight but the maths might be off so they basically include the driver twice, driver is defined as 75kg (165 lbs).

As I live in TinyCountry we don't really do any approval of cars on our own. I think the deal in the EU is that the approval of any car from any country is good anywhere inside the EU and afaik we generally use the german ones.

Paron for (probably) providing fake news.

[gooki]

US tow ratings are really odd. They're super low compared to the same vehicles in the rest of the world, and I don't know why.

E.g. in NZ the Tesla Model 3 is towing rated for 910kg / 2006 lb.

[neo von retorch]

Yup, while my Mazda 3 can hold 850 lbs just like the EU model, the tow rating is 1000 lbs there (I should go back and re-research this) and... 0 here. It says do not tow. Naturally I installed a hitch and towed a 500 lb wood stove with no issue. Of course I barely broke 35 mph and 10 miles. I don't recommend crazy out of spec towing in most cases but I have a lot of doubt that they build the car super differently before sending it to the U.S....

[RWD]

US tow ratings are really odd. They're super low compared to the same vehicles in the rest of the world, and I don't know why.

It's because the way we hitch up the trailer has a different balance. When you put more weight on the tongue you can tow less weight (because of axle weight limits). But the trade-off is a higher maximum stable speed. Elsewhere can tow more because the trailer has a more neutral balance so it won't overload the axle but risks destabilization at higher speeds.

There was an excellent article about this on Jalopnik that seems to have been removed now. But you can still read it on the WaybackMachine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20201111180652/https://oppositelock.kinja.com/tow-me-down-1609112611

[pecunia]

Maybe the tow ratings are lower in the US because folks in the US tow more lawyers around.

[neo von retorch]

US tow ratings are really odd. They're super low compared to the same vehicles in the rest of the world, and I don't know why.

It's because the way we hitch up the trailer has a different balance. When you put more weight on the tongue you can tow less weight (because of axle weight limits). But the trade-off is a higher maximum stable speed. Elsewhere can tow more because the trailer has a more neutral balance so it won't overload the axle but risks destabilization at higher speeds.

There was an excellent article about this on Jalopnik that seems to have been removed now. But you can still read it on the WaybackMachine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20201111180652/https://oppositelock.kinja.com/tow-me-down-1609112611

Great article. Still doesn't QUITE explain things like 0 lb ratings in the U.S. when the same car in the UK can tow 1300 lbs. (Without trailer brakes, the Mazda 3 is rated for 600kg / 1320lb in the UK, with brakes 1500kg / 3300lb!) Unless, they are assuming if you're driving a Mazda 3, even if you tow, you plan on going 100+ mph? :) But towing 500 lbs on a trailer with 10-15% on the tongue... 50-75 lbs(!!) is going to be relatively stable even at highway speeds. So my 35-45 mph jaunt was not horribly risky (in my mildly unscientific opinion.)

[RWD]

US tow ratings are really odd. They're super low compared to the same vehicles in the rest of the world, and I don't know why.

It's because the way we hitch up the trailer has a different balance. When you put more weight on the tongue you can tow less weight (because of axle weight limits). But the trade-off is a higher maximum stable speed. Elsewhere can tow more because the trailer has a more neutral balance so it won't overload the axle but risks destabilization at higher speeds.

There was an excellent article about this on Jalopnik that seems to have been removed now. But you can still read it on the WaybackMachine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20201111180652/https://oppositelock.kinja.com/tow-me-down-1609112611

Great article. Still doesn't QUITE explain things like 0 lb ratings in the U.S. when the same car in the UK can tow 1300 lbs. (Without trailer brakes, the Mazda 3 is rated for 600kg / 1320lb in the UK, with brakes 1500kg / 3300lb!) Unless, they are assuming if you're driving a Mazda 3, even if you tow, you plan on going 100+ mph? :) But towing 500 lbs on a trailer with 10-15% on the tongue... 50-75 lbs(!!) is going to be relatively stable even at highway speeds. So my 35-45 mph jaunt was not horribly risky (in my mildly unscientific opinion.)

Yeah, I'm not sure about those either. Perhaps they simply don't want to bother rating these vehicles for towing in the US? Or maybe there is a minimum tow rating to get a rating at all?

[StashingAway]

Or maybe there is a minimum tow rating to get a rating at all?

I've never seen a tow rating under 1,000 lbs, so I'm putting my money somewhere in this realm.

It may be that in general people are likely to overload a 500lb payload if one is offered at all. There aren't too many payloads under 1,000 lbs that are worth rating for. Most ATV trailers, campers, etc. are at that 1000lb mark and above. A small cargo trailer for hardware store runs is a small use case.

It may be that people in the US tend to drive faster than they should with a trailer, whereas culturally folks in the UK (etc.) are in general more familiar with small car/big trailer driving. That theory breaks down for Australia, but I suspect it has something do do with it. I don't think you have to be going to the extremes of 100+ for it to be more dangerous. The difference between 50mp and 70mph for towing is quite drastic. 70mph is quite a familiar speed on American roads.

[AlanStache]

Also the US has relatively low standards for drivers education, so I might expect the general population of other nations to have a better understanding of how to drive when pulling a trailer.  This type of regulation here is probably not written for people who know what they are doing but to ensure the casual once-every-three-years driver pulling a trailer is safe.

[Just Joe]

US tow ratings are really odd. They're super low compared to the same vehicles in the rest of the world, and I don't know why.

E.g. in NZ the Tesla Model 3 is towing rated for 910kg / 2006 lb.

Lawyers and marketing IMHO. Lawyers because American consumers cannot be trusted to make good decisions. ;)

Actually I've read it is because of American interstates. The tow rating is adjusted for interstate speeds. In the rest of the world people are required to slow down and/or have trailer brakes. In the USA the law is not uniform state to state so an assumption is made that Americans won't slow down and won't have trailer brakes. Also, the assumption that average Americans have limited driver training.

Marketing b/c I think car companies want to upsell consumers to a larger vehicle even if the smaller vehicle will tow their little utility trailer to the hardware store and back just fine.

I belong to several hobbyist internet groups - one which caters to owners of small campers and travel trailers. We own a small camper.

It is quite shocking to see how uninformed people who are already in the process of buying a camper or even a larger travel trailer. Questions about towing. Questions about whether their commuter car can tow a 2000 lb trailer. People who won't do the homework to learn but just canvas the internet for opinions.

There have been debates about whether trailer brakes are even necessary let along whether they are useful on mtn roads or foul weather. One fellow claimed his economy car was rated at nearly two tons tow capacity when it was rated at half a ton max but his trailer hitch had a sticker on it listing the higher tow capacity b/c apparently it may have also fit a larger SUV. He assumed he didn't need brakes and that his little car could tow some ambitious sized trailers. 

I don't like alot of government oversight such as vehicle inspections - and we don't have that in my state - but my opinion may be shifting. It is scary what is out on the roads in the USA. Pair that with a few YouTube channels that show a mechanic's perspective on people's cars that come in for repairs, and I want inspection laws yesterday.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjN72nQrWhDnppts-lNnlKQ

[nereo]

I don't like a lot of government oversight such as vehicle inspections - and we don't have that in my state - but my opinion may be shifting. It is scary what is out on the roads in the USA. Pair that with a few YouTube channels that show a mechanic's perspective on people's cars that come in for repairs, and I want inspection laws yesterday.

Every time someone (often my father) rails against basic governmental safety requirements, my reflexive response is: "do you trust every driver on the road to do what is in their own and everyone else's best interest? Do you even think most drive safely??"

Every single day I encounter some yahoo driving dangerously with a trailer or an overloaded vehicle. I live in a very vacation-heavy region FWIW with lots of recreational boaters.

[GodlessCommie]

Really happy to see the conversation about towing ratings. We just came back from Iceland, and it really jumped at me that much smaller SUVs or even cars were towing trailers. For someone from the US, the trailer/car size ratio looked way out of proportion.

Now, the highest speed limit I saw was 90 km/h (~55 mph), and while people do speed, people who tow generally don't. They would also be very proactive about letting you pass.

[GodlessCommie]

Also, sharing observations from Iceland: the cost of gas is roughly $7.6 per gallon. A little digging on statise.is shows electricity price of ~16 cents/kWh. There looks to be more EVs on the roads, and the charging infrastructure is more visible than in the Eastern US - but even with this fuel cost disparity, EVs are far from dominating, with ~35% of new car sales for the last quarter I saw data for (q2 2020).

I doubt we will ever get to this level of economic advantage of EVs over ICE cars. Regulation is the only way.

[BDWW]

Re: Towing

I've often wondered why there isn't a more simple hitch - trailer size standard.  The ball size/hitch size of most trailers is only roughly correlated with towing capacity.  For balls, 1 7/8" is supposed to be up to 2k lbs, 2" covers everything from 2K to 10K, 2 5/16 - 3" for heavier loads.  The hitch square itself changes also changes with capacity, but it doesn't appear to me to be very restricted, i.e. small class 1 hitches accepting a 2" ball.

I suppose it might be a bit difficult with historical trailers and what not, but it seems like it would be a relatively straight forward process to develop and enforce a more refined standard for hitches.  e.g. Your little car could only hook up to an appropriate trailer.   It just seems with a little effort we could develop a largely idiot proof standard, and enforce it on hitch and trailer manufacturers and solve a lot of the problem.

Of course there will always be jury-riggers, overloaders and what not, but I think we can still do way better and prevent a lot of egregious towing.

[gaja]

Also, sharing observations from Iceland: the cost of gas is roughly $7.6 per gallon. A little digging on statise.is shows electricity price of ~16 cents/kWh. There looks to be more EVs on the roads, and the charging infrastructure is more visible than in the Eastern US - but even with this fuel cost disparity, EVs are far from dominating, with ~35% of new car sales for the last quarter I saw data for (q2 2020).

I doubt we will ever get to this level of economic advantage of EVs over ICE cars. Regulation is the only way.

Iceland only recently got charging infrastructure around the island. Just a few years ago, it was very difficult to travel electric on the north side, and downright impossible in the southeast. We had to charge at camping places, use extention cords through kitchen windows, etc, to get from Seydisfjørdur to Akureyri. From Selfoss to Seydisfjørdur, there are places with more than 100 km between houses, so with a first gen Nissan we would have been stranded. Now, I think they have rapid chargers around road 1, and you could almost see the increasing EV sales follow the geographical locations of the chargers.

The other issue in Iceland, is that they actually need 4WD to get around outside Reykjavik and the ring road. Most people have family or summer houses in rural areas, and have cars that can take them there. The Icelandic road naming system is very useful: 1 digit roads have asphalt everywhere, and rarely get washed away from floods. 2 digit roads are mainly gravel, and can be driven with most normal cars if you are careful. 3 digit roads will have the occasional river running through it, and you need an SUV or similar (not want: need). (There are some exceptions around Reykjavik, where roads have been upgraded due to tourists.)

[GodlessCommie]

Iceland only recently got charging infrastructure around the island. Just a few years ago, it was very difficult to travel electric on the north side, and downright impossible in the southeast. We had to charge at camping places, use extention cords through kitchen windows, etc, to get from Seydisfjørdur to Akureyri. From Selfoss to Seydisfjørdur, there are places with more than 100 km between houses, so with a first gen Nissan we would have been stranded. Now, I think they have rapid chargers around road 1, and you could almost see the increasing EV sales follow the geographical locations of the chargers.

The other issue in Iceland, is that they actually need 4WD to get around outside Reykjavik and the ring road. Most people have family or summer houses in rural areas, and have cars that can take them there. The Icelandic road naming system is very useful: 1 digit roads have asphalt everywhere, and rarely get washed away from floods. 2 digit roads are mainly gravel, and can be driven with most normal cars if you are careful. 3 digit roads will have the occasional river running through it, and you need an SUV or similar (not want: need). (There are some exceptions around Reykjavik, where roads have been upgraded due to tourists.)

It all explains why the most popular EV appears to be Outlander PHEV.

Kudos to you all for making pretty amazingly fast progress! Last I've been to Iceland was in 2018, and the changes around EV infrastructure are clearly visible and impressive.

One question, though: some charging stations seem to be lacking cords, having instead some heavy-duty outets. What's the deal with them and how do they work?

[jinga nation]

To answer the thread's Q, not if a very popular vehicle brand is doing DC swampy things...

https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/26/22594235/toyota-lobbying-dc-ev-congress-biden-donation

[gaja]

Iceland only recently got charging infrastructure around the island. Just a few years ago, it was very difficult to travel electric on the north side, and downright impossible in the southeast. We had to charge at camping places, use extention cords through kitchen windows, etc, to get from Seydisfjørdur to Akureyri. From Selfoss to Seydisfjørdur, there are places with more than 100 km between houses, so with a first gen Nissan we would have been stranded. Now, I think they have rapid chargers around road 1, and you could almost see the increasing EV sales follow the geographical locations of the chargers.

The other issue in Iceland, is that they actually need 4WD to get around outside Reykjavik and the ring road. Most people have family or summer houses in rural areas, and have cars that can take them there. The Icelandic road naming system is very useful: 1 digit roads have asphalt everywhere, and rarely get washed away from floods. 2 digit roads are mainly gravel, and can be driven with most normal cars if you are careful. 3 digit roads will have the occasional river running through it, and you need an SUV or similar (not want: need). (There are some exceptions around Reykjavik, where roads have been upgraded due to tourists.)

It all explains why the most popular EV appears to be Outlander PHEV.

Kudos to you all for making pretty amazingly fast progress! Last I've been to Iceland was in 2018, and the changes around EV infrastructure are clearly visible and impressive.

One question, though: some charging stations seem to be lacking cords, having instead some heavy-duty outets. What's the deal with them and how do they work?

You mean the type 2 mode 3 outlets? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector Those are the chosen standard for EU and EEA countries for slow charging (up to 22kW). Due to safety (mainly fire hazard) it is not allowed to charge more than 10A over a schuko, and for public chargers only Type 2 are permitted (or - you could also install an CEE with an extra type B breaker, but very few EV drivers carry the necessary adapters).

In most new EVs, the Type 2 cord is included in the sale. Otherwise, it is available a lot of places (including hardware stores) for ~$100. Depending on the car, you'll either get a type2-type2 (Tesla, Volkswagen, etc), or a type2-type1 cord (Nissan, most Kias, etc).

I often prefer the type2 chargers if I have something to do, like shopping, eating, or while being at work. With the rapid chargers, you have to stay near the car and move it as soon as it gets to 80 %, to avoid creating queues. They are also much cheaper to build, so there are usually more of them around.

[pecunia]

SCHUKO - type of plug used by Europeans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuko

[habanero]

Last month here EVs made up 64.1% of cars sold. 27.6% were hybrids and only 4.3% powered by gasoline and 4.1% ran on diesel. The incentives are very skewed towards EVs and electricity is relatively cheap (around $0.15 / kWh while fossile fuels are very expensive (around $6.50 - $8 / gallon depending on loction) so the maths are quite different compared to the US. And pretty much 100% of our electricity supply comes from renewables in the first place.

[nereo]

Last month here EVs made up 64.1% of cars sold. 27.6% were hybrids and only 4.3% powered by gasoline and 4.1% ran on diesel. The incentives are very skewed towards EVs and electricity is relatively cheap (around $0.15 / kWh while fossile fuels are very expensive (around $6.50 - $8 / gallon depending on loction) so the maths are quite different compared to the US. And pretty much 100% of our electricity supply comes from renewables in the first place.

Where is "here"?

[habanero]

Last month here EVs made up 64.1% of cars sold. 27.6% were hybrids and only 4.3% powered by gasoline and 4.1% ran on diesel. The incentives are very skewed towards EVs and electricity is relatively cheap (around $0.15 / kWh while fossile fuels are very expensive (around $6.50 - $8 / gallon depending on loction) so the maths are quite different compared to the US. And pretty much 100% of our electricity supply comes from renewables in the first place.

Where is "here"?

Norway, home of heavily taxed cars and gas.

EVs are excempt from VAT (normally 25%), all car taxes (of which there is a shitload, generally calculated off weight and emission numbers), pay reduced yearly road tax, pay nothing or have a significant discount on toll roads and reduced parking fees on public space in cities.  14-15% of all personal cars are EVs so it takes a lot of time to replace the existing stock.

Im not really into car prices but to give you an idea a new Honda CR-V costs roughly 10-15k USD more than a new Tesla Model 3 AWD Long Range here so its quite different from most other places.

So based on this single data point (i.e what is happening in Norway) you can get a significant change provided strong incentives, but I guess if the US introduced norwegian car and gas taxes there would be a civil war or worse so it's starting from very different departure points. There are currently discussions on scaling back the incentives somewhat as the government looses significant revenue, cars being a cash cow for the government since the dawn of time. Currently the main topic is VAT on purchase price over a certain point. If introduced it will affect "luxury" cars like the electric Porsche. Teslas S and X models, the Audi E-tron but barely anything else afaik.

So due to the history adaption has been quicker here than most other places can expect. If you can live with the limitations of an EV (range, charging etc) its generally a pretty simple choice measured in money as the cars tend to be cheaper than a similar ICE car, especially on the higher end of the scale and much cheaper to operate due to high gas prices etc.

This is also why hybrids are popular, due to the somewhat optimistic official numbers for emission (CO2 and NOx) compared to real life it becomes a bit of an arbitrage vs the car tax system. You can buy one, get the reduced car tax compared to a pure ICE and if you end up ever charging it and driving it partly electric or not is irrelevant.

[BicycleB]

Last month here EVs made up 64.1% of cars sold. 27.6% were hybrids and only 4.3% powered by gasoline and 4.1% ran on diesel. The incentives are very skewed towards EVs and electricity is relatively cheap (around $0.15 / kWh while fossile fuels are very expensive (around $6.50 - $8 / gallon depending on loction) so the maths are quite different compared to the US. And pretty much 100% of our electricity supply comes from renewables in the first place.

Where is "here"?

Norway, home of heavily taxed cars and gas.

EVs are excempt from VAT (normally 25%), all car taxes (of which there is a shitload, generally calculated off weight and emission numbers), pay reduced yearly road tax, pay nothing or have a significant discount on toll roads and reduced parking fees on public space in cities.  14-15% of all personal cars are EVs so it takes a lot of time to replace the existing stock.

Im not really into car prices but to give you an idea a new Honda CR-V costs roughly 10-15k USD more than a new Tesla Model 3 AWD Long Range here so its quite different from most other places.

So based on this single data point (i.e what is happening in Norway) you can get a significant change provided strong incentives, but I guess if the US introduced norwegian car and gas taxes there would be a civil war or worse so it's starting from very different departure points. There are currently discussions on scaling back the incentives somewhat as the government looses significant revenue, cars being a cash cow for the government since the dawn of time. Currently the main topic is VAT on purchase price over a certain point. If introduced it will affect "luxury" cars like the electric Porsche. Teslas S and X models, the Audi E-tron but barely anything else afaik.

So due to the history adaption has been quicker here than most other places can expect. If you can live with the limitations of an EV (range, charging etc) its generally a pretty simple choice measured in money as the cars tend to be cheaper than a similar ICE car, especially on the higher end of the scale and much cheaper to operate due to high gas prices etc.

This is also why hybrids are popular, due to the somewhat optimistic official numbers for emission (CO2 and NOx) compared to real life it becomes a bit of an arbitrage vs the car tax system. You can buy one, get the reduced car tax compared to a pure ICE and if you end up ever charging it and driving it partly electric or not is irrelevant.

Very nice to have an on the ground summary ffom the world's case study on widespread EV adoption. Thanks, @habanero.

[habanero]

....
Very nice to have an on the ground summary ffom the world's case study on widespread EV adoption. Thanks, @habanero.

In the early years EVs were mostly popular as commuter cars where the limited range wasn't much of an issue and it was generally car no 2 in a household. They allowed entrance to the major cities without paying road toll, was easy to park for free downtown. Or they where popular in spots where there was some ridicolously expensive toll road or requiring a ferry (EVs were free on ferries as well) so they served a rather specific purpose - to save on commuting costs. Over the last few years as more models with longer range have come out its getting common to have an EV as the only car in a household. Back in the day there were way more chargers than cars so in downtown Oslo (the capital) you got free parking AND free charging as a nice perk. Now you have to pay for both. If there was a public carging spot on your street it was almost guaranteed to be available at any time so it was free parking and free fuel at home as well, now it ain't so. The main point being something can be extremely convenient , but when more cars show up it all can change. I would never own an EV without having access to home charging.

As more and more people drive EVs word spreads and you can see that it actually works pretty well. In more rural areas adoption is slower as there are less charging infrastructure and some places very long distances and very cold winters, making an EV rather impractical.

In my opinion we're also seeing a more realistic view of what a car is actually used for. There is generally some distance between perceived usage and actual usage and practical hurdles, if any, can generally be overcome for most drivers.

Our licence plates have 2 letters and 5 digits. EL was the first for EVs and when I bought my Tesla in march 2015 i got a number in the mid 50.000s. Now they have exhausted the EL series, the EV series, EB series and are currently on EC and soon will start ED so the pace has really picked up lately.

[nereo]

It’s pretty easy for me to get free charging at a number of locations, and typically about half (or more) of the chargers are vacant whenever I’m there.  If habanero’s experiences are any indication, that’s a perk which will likely go away in the years to come if/when EVs increase in popularity.  So be it, I’m still on board.
In some places and circles it seems like there’s an almost reactionary pushback to EVs.  I’ve heard more than a few take up “EV tax” to supposedly offset the ‘free ride’ they get by not paying for fuel (and thus supporting the gasoline tax), but it often seems less about gaining revenue and more about ‘sticking it to the libs’ that tend to be early EV adopters.

[Fomerly known as something]

When I made my last car purchase in 2015, infrastructure wasn’t there yet for me in the US.  My next car is likely to be a EV/hybrid or an EV.  But I find it interesting that my new Bay Area lease specifically says I can’t charge an EV at my unit.

[gaja]

When I made my last car purchase in 2015, infrastructure wasn’t there yet for me in the US.  My next car is likely to be a EV/hybrid or an EV.  But I find it interesting that my new Bay Area lease specifically says I can’t charge an EV at my unit.

That has been an issue in many appartment complexes in Norway. So much that it is now illegal to deny someone to install a charger. But since having a charger can increase the value of the property by up to $25 000, a lot of appartment HOAs already have started installing them.

[GodlessCommie]

In some places and circles it seems like there’s an almost reactionary pushback to EVs. 

Absolutely. There are exactly two areas in which first questions often carry negative connotations: EVs and solar. For any other purchase, questions usually boil down to "tell me more about how awesome it is". For an EV, it's "defend your purchase for me".

[nereo]

In some places and circles it seems like there’s an almost reactionary pushback to EVs. 

Absolutely. There are exactly two areas in which first questions often carry negative connotations: EVs and solar. For any other purchase, questions usually boil down to "tell me more about how awesome it is". For an EV, it's "defend your purchase for me".

Sadly this is our experience with my FIL. His first reaction to seeing we had a PV array was to launch into some bizarre diatribe about how rare earth metals were finding sex. When we got our PHEV he said we were freeloading by not paying the gas tax.

[habanero]

Absolutely. There are exactly two areas in which first questions often carry negative connotations: EVs and solar. For any other purchase, questions usually boil down to "tell me more about how awesome it is". For an EV, it's "defend your purchase for me".

The one I got most often as a first was "how long does it take to charge from empty to full at home" ? To which I generally have to explain why it's irrelevant and the wrong question to ask. Folks got it when I explained it at least.

[BicycleB]

In some places and circles it seems like there’s an almost reactionary pushback to EVs. 

Absolutely. There are exactly two areas in which first questions often carry negative connotations: EVs and solar. For any other purchase, questions usually boil down to "tell me more about how awesome it is". For an EV, it's "defend your purchase for me".

Sadly this is our experience with my FIL. His first reaction to seeing we had a PV array was to launch into some bizarre diatribe about how rare earth metals were finding sex. When we got our PHEV he said we were freeloading by not paying the gas tax.

Having reverse engineering autocorrect. What did he say??

[GuitarStv]

I kinda get the queries about solar panels and wind turbines.  They have been heavily oversold as a solution to our energy problem, and they absolutely are not that.

[GodlessCommie]

I kinda get the queries about solar panels and wind turbines.  They have been heavily oversold as a solution to our energy problem, and they absolutely are not that.

Land Rovers are oversold even more heavily, as a solution to a problem that 99.89% of their buyers don't have. Yet a newly minted owner of one never gets challenged on anything.