Author Topic: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?  (Read 554459 times)

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4450 on: April 13, 2024, 05:42:04 PM »


Based on my time at truck stops the last couple years (I love Love's!), most of the big rig drivers are immigrants.  In fact, more and more truck stops are now offering Indian and Pakistani food in addition to hot dogs and pizza.

It seems to me that it takes longer for an electric charge than it does to gas up.  Are these truck stops beginning to put in charging stations?  The longer time the customer stays at the truck stop gives an opportunity for the Truck Stop to sell food, knick-knacks and services to a captive clientele.


Love's is putting your tax dollars to work electrifying!  I had a coffee at one on I-5 today, U-Haul in tow.


https://www.ttnews.com/articles/loves-ev-chargers

Great!  This will encourage electric cars.  Less gas demand will mean lower gas prices at least for a while.

NorCal

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4451 on: April 13, 2024, 05:48:52 PM »
I’ve looked at the NEVI plans for a few states. The big truck stops are big winners in funding. A lot of Love’s, Flying J, etc.

And it’s a good fit. The existing amenities work well for EV drivers. I can see a small but easy pivot in the future to things like coffee shops that appeal to people making longer stops.

One thing I really appreciated on my last EV road trip was a picnic table with a nice view. I wasn’t feeling fast food, so I broke out the induction cooktop and made a nice hot picnic lunch.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4452 on: April 14, 2024, 09:17:55 AM »
I've been watching many of Njorn Nyland's roadtrip videos from Norway.

https://youtu.be/VxeRwYcO5wM

Looks like most gas stations have 6-12 chargers - that he films anyhow. Multiple networks. Some exposed, some covered which is good in such a snowy place.

And their gas station food looks more interesting that our's. Lots of Circle K and 7/11 gas stations and chargers which was surprising. (we have that brand locally here). 


In other news our future used EV might be a Kona rather than a Leaf. Leaf still meets our needs but the Kona allows for road trips. As a couple on the cusp of empty nest status, it might be nice to choose the smaller vehicle rather than our 3-row vehicle for road trips. It'll just be DW, myself and our pooch. Only concern is interior noise. We have a noisy 1st gen CRV now. It's fine for local use but noisy on the interstate. Much of that is age. A test drive would reveal that detail.

reeshau

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4453 on: April 14, 2024, 02:40:36 PM »
And their gas station food looks more interesting that our's. Lots of Circle K and 7/11 gas stations and chargers which was surprising. (we have that brand locally here). 

 Norway is Circle K's test market for charging, because of the high percentage of electric vehicles there.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4454 on: April 15, 2024, 08:46:10 AM »
Good to know. Thanks!

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4455 on: April 15, 2024, 01:19:37 PM »
@Just Joe - the quiet of an EV is my favourite part and why I will never own an ICE vehicle again.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4456 on: April 15, 2024, 04:17:35 PM »
@Just Joe - the quiet of an EV is my favourite part and why I will never own an ICE vehicle again.

Oh yes. Everytime I ride or drive an EV the quiet is a huge treat.  Also a favorite part of my ebike. I can pedal along with assist and sneak up on all sorts of wildlife. Was able to get several minutes of time near a big owl one evening.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4457 on: April 15, 2024, 04:22:09 PM »
@Just Joe - the quiet of an EV is my favourite part and why I will never own an ICE vehicle again.

Oh yes. Everytime I ride or drive an EV the quiet is a huge treat.  Also a favorite part of my ebike. I can pedal along with assist and sneak up on all sorts of wildlife. Was able to get several minutes of time near a big owl one evening.
how cool is that?

NorCal

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4458 on: April 15, 2024, 06:51:06 PM »
@Just Joe - the quiet of an EV is my favourite part and why I will never own an ICE vehicle again.

Oh yes. Everytime I ride or drive an EV the quiet is a huge treat.  Also a favorite part of my ebike. I can pedal along with assist and sneak up on all sorts of wildlife. Was able to get several minutes of time near a big owl one evening.

This is something that is frustratingly hard to get across.  I did a 2,500 mile road trip in my Rivian over the holidays. I would choose this same car for my roadtrip even with access to a Tesla or gas car. There’s lots of it that’s just better. And this is true even though a Rivian isn’t that great of a road trip EV due to large size and relative inefficiency.  Things that I got that wouldn’t have existed in a gas car:


-Our schedule encouraged sit down lunch stops I probably wouldn’t have taken otherwise. We stopped at a nice local diner instead of a drive through.
-Having electricity, I could break out the kettle and make the kids hot chocolate when they got restless.
-I was able to adjust the charging schedule to match my kids need to get out and wiggle. I was less tempted to drive through it, which kept the whole family in a better mood.
-I was sick of fast food, so I pulled out the induction stove and made a hot lunch at a nice picnic spot while charging. We got to relax over a beautiful Utah vista when we otherwise would have treated it just like any other truck stop.
-We stopped at the lodge in Zion on the way through. Driving up the canyon in a nearly silent vehicle was an experience I’ll remember for a long time.

I know this doesn’t resonate, but I actually enjoyed and have fond memories of the road trip.  A gas car road trip is something to tolerate. An EV road trip lets you enjoy the journey.



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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4459 on: April 15, 2024, 07:04:05 PM »
I've been watching many of Njorn Nyland's roadtrip videos from Norway.

https://youtu.be/VxeRwYcO5wM

Looks like most gas stations have 6-12 chargers - that he films anyhow. Multiple networks. Some exposed, some covered which is good in such a snowy place.

And their gas station food looks more interesting that our's. Lots of Circle K and 7/11 gas stations and chargers which was surprising. (we have that brand locally here). 


In other news our future used EV might be a Kona rather than a Leaf. Leaf still meets our needs but the Kona allows for road trips. As a couple on the cusp of empty nest status, it might be nice to choose the smaller vehicle rather than our 3-row vehicle for road trips. It'll just be DW, myself and our pooch. Only concern is interior noise. We have a noisy 1st gen CRV now. It's fine for local use but noisy on the interstate. Much of that is age. A test drive would reveal that detail.

Road tripping in the Kona is going to be a nightmare compared to doing so in a Tesla. 

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4460 on: April 15, 2024, 10:21:19 PM »
I've been running trip scenarios using ABTP and travel by Kona is not bad. A couple of charges over several hundred miles.

And the charge stops aren't even always that long as EV owners know well. 20 minutes here, 30 minutes there. Sometimes not even 20 minutes if the trip ends at our house and we're not that far away.

Is the Tesla and the Tesla network the superior tool compared to a Kona or Leaf? Surely.

First there is Elon. Nope. Not at this time. Then there's the fact that I'm not prepared to go that financially deep into buying a new or used EV right now.  I could delay another year but then I can't gift our ancient Honda to our eldest who wants it and kind of needs it now.

So the contest remains between a low mileage Leaf Plus or a Kona. I think for the money, a used Kona (or a Niro) gets us into a low mile capable EV at around $20K. Then we can cash flow our youngest through college w/o college loans. 

Doesn't matter which one we choose. As a second car it will seldom leave the county. When it does, it won't likely go more than one fast charge in any direction. Unless the novelty of EV travel really captures our hearts. 

TLDR:Kona vs Leaf Plus vs nothing at all for reasons of cost and utility. And nope on Elon for the foreseeable future.

reeshau

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4461 on: April 16, 2024, 05:57:40 AM »
-I was able to adjust the charging schedule to match my kids need to get out and wiggle. I was less tempted to drive through it, which kept the whole family in a better mood.

Charging stations at playgrounds!  Brilliant!  Of course, there's no sponsor there to make it free, but wouldn't that be an amazing sign of EV use by families?

NorCal

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4462 on: April 16, 2024, 06:46:30 AM »
-I was able to adjust the charging schedule to match my kids need to get out and wiggle. I was less tempted to drive through it, which kept the whole family in a better mood.

Charging stations at playgrounds!  Brilliant!  Of course, there's no sponsor there to make it free, but wouldn't that be an amazing sign of EV use by families?

I really would like to see more DCFC sponsored by local downtowns, or at least located near a downtown area.

They do exist, but they’re not as common, and frequently lower-quality chargers.  The truck stop chains have the capital and customer service mindset to install good chargers and keep them maintained. Which I do greatly appreciate. But I’d like to see more small local businesses thrive too.

That small local diner I stopped at was in Green River Utah. The chargers were at a closed local coffee shop, and we had a nice sit-down meal at the diner across the street. We weren’t rushed, and we had some good family time. There was a playground a block down too.

How many gas cars passing through Green River even acknowledge the existence of more than a truck stop there?
 



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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4463 on: April 16, 2024, 07:21:14 AM »

I really would like to see more DCFC sponsored by local downtowns, or at least located near a downtown area.

They do exist, but they’re not as common, and frequently lower-quality chargers.  The truck stop chains have the capital and customer service mindset to install good chargers and keep them maintained. Which I do greatly appreciate. But I’d like to see more small local businesses thrive too.

That small local diner I stopped at was in Green River Utah. The chargers were at a closed local coffee shop, and we had a nice sit-down meal at the diner across the street. We weren’t rushed, and we had some good family time. There was a playground a block down too.

How many gas cars passing through Green River even acknowledge the existence of more than a truck stop there?

So I'm on the environmental adaptation committee of my local town (~9k people) with a commercial downtown area.  In the last three years we've installed 18 public use L2 chargers, and spent a lot o time debating whether to put in an DCFC.  Ultimately we went against it, for a couple reason:
  • The chargers themselves were about 10x the cost of a branched L2 (two whips)
  • it was going to cost an additional 5k+ to upgrade the service from the utility line
  • we ultimately decided we would rather encourage people who were going to stay for up to 2 hours by giving them free power over prioritizing fast power-ups where a driver might only stick around for 20 minutes and would be less likely to shop or eat at one of our restaurants

The cost of offering free L2 power is pretty negligible (10.9¢/kw*h, so < $1/hr), particularly when you balance that against having visitors who *want* to spend time (and money) in your downtown area.  At ~48¢/kw fro DCFC + a sizable idle fee (billed to the customer via POS) drivers tend to want to get going as soon they charge up 

geekette

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4464 on: April 16, 2024, 08:23:13 AM »
The problem for me is that the L2 chargers are just too slow.  The free ones around here only offer about 6kWh, so my 45 minutes at the library nets me... 20 miles? 

I did find a faster free L2 charger at a restaurant in TX, so our 2 hour dinner meant about 100 miles, which was nice, but not really sufficient for long distance travel.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4465 on: April 16, 2024, 12:06:03 PM »
The problem for me is that the L2 chargers are just too slow.  The free ones around here only offer about 6kWh, so my 45 minutes at the library nets me... 20 miles? 


Yeah, that's inherent in the equation.  L2 chargers are going to offset the miles one typically drives in-town running errands, but won't appreciably add a good deal of range in any meaningful timeframe.  After a couple hours of charging and shopping/dining you'll go home with a couple dozen more miles than you started with, but no big deal.   But if it gets another customer through your door for $1 in electricity it's worth it for many businesses.

DCFG (aka "L3", aka "superchargers" in the Tesla-shere) are what you need for adding lots of range in a short time frame.


NorCal

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4466 on: April 16, 2024, 01:38:23 PM »

I really would like to see more DCFC sponsored by local downtowns, or at least located near a downtown area.

They do exist, but they’re not as common, and frequently lower-quality chargers.  The truck stop chains have the capital and customer service mindset to install good chargers and keep them maintained. Which I do greatly appreciate. But I’d like to see more small local businesses thrive too.

That small local diner I stopped at was in Green River Utah. The chargers were at a closed local coffee shop, and we had a nice sit-down meal at the diner across the street. We weren’t rushed, and we had some good family time. There was a playground a block down too.

How many gas cars passing through Green River even acknowledge the existence of more than a truck stop there?

So I'm on the environmental adaptation committee of my local town (~9k people) with a commercial downtown area.  In the last three years we've installed 18 public use L2 chargers, and spent a lot o time debating whether to put in an DCFC.  Ultimately we went against it, for a couple reason:
  • The chargers themselves were about 10x the cost of a branched L2 (two whips)
  • it was going to cost an additional 5k+ to upgrade the service from the utility line
  • we ultimately decided we would rather encourage people who were going to stay for up to 2 hours by giving them free power over prioritizing fast power-ups where a driver might only stick around for 20 minutes and would be less likely to shop or eat at one of our restaurants

The cost of offering free L2 power is pretty negligible (10.9¢/kw*h, so < $1/hr), particularly when you balance that against having visitors who *want* to spend time (and money) in your downtown area.  At ~48¢/kw fro DCFC + a sizable idle fee (billed to the customer via POS) drivers tend to want to get going as soon they charge up

Yep, those are the inherent trade-offs when making these decisions. DCFC is really expensive, but obviously comes with a different set of benefits and customers.

I’ve found L2 chargers are great and brilliant when located in good spots, but nearly useless in other spots.

For example, every hotel near a commercial district should have L2 chargers. EV drivers will stay there and use them. I’ve used a surprising number of L2 chargers at zoos in towns I’m visiting.  It’s also nice to have them at a park I might be visiting.  It’s worth my time if it’s a place I might be staying 4+ hours.  I’d even happily pay for them if the pricing isn’t too far out of line for residential electric rates and the money goes towards maintaining/improving charging options.

But I’d never use one in the middle of a day trip.

You need DCFC (at least 150kW) if you want to entice people off the freeway on their way to somewhere else.



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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4467 on: April 16, 2024, 03:50:17 PM »
There is an L2 charger that provides free electricity about 300 meters from our house, which means if we are planning a longer trip I park there overnight and start the day with a full charge.  For most day-to-day we just plug into 120 at our house.

Here in BC there has been a lot of charging infrastructure built out.  I basically ignore L2 chargers when I'm on a road trip (unless we're staying overnight), and I find the many L3 chargers.  Stop for 35-40 minutes, get another 3-400 km range.  At which point I'm ready for another stop anyway.

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4468 on: April 16, 2024, 06:23:47 PM »
There is an L2 charger that provides free electricity about 300 meters from our house, which means if we are planning a longer trip I park there overnight and start the day with a full charge.  For most day-to-day we just plug into 120 at our house.

Here in BC there has been a lot of charging infrastructure built out.  I basically ignore L2 chargers when I'm on a road trip (unless we're staying overnight), and I find the many L3 chargers.  Stop for 35-40 minutes, get another 3-400 km range.  At which point I'm ready for another stop anyway.

Damn -nobody ever gives free gas.

NorCal

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4469 on: April 16, 2024, 06:39:40 PM »
There is an L2 charger that provides free electricity about 300 meters from our house, which means if we are planning a longer trip I park there overnight and start the day with a full charge.  For most day-to-day we just plug into 120 at our house.

Here in BC there has been a lot of charging infrastructure built out.  I basically ignore L2 chargers when I'm on a road trip (unless we're staying overnight), and I find the many L3 chargers.  Stop for 35-40 minutes, get another 3-400 km range.  At which point I'm ready for another stop anyway.

Damn -nobody ever gives free gas.

Most hotels with L2 chargers offer it as a free amenity. 60kWh is less than $10 electricity at average retail rates, but would cost around $30 at a DCFC. It seems to be a good deal for the hotels, and a good deal for customers.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4470 on: April 16, 2024, 08:31:48 PM »
Canoo might be in danger of bankruptcy...

https://techcrunch.com/2024/04/01/canoo-spent-double-its-annual-revenue-on-the-ceos-private-jet-in-2023/
https://electrek.co/2024/04/04/canoo-spent-twice-its-annual-revenue-on-its-ceos-private-jets-last-year/

One WSJ video I watched suggested that they may run out of funding sometime this year.

Its a shame b/c I like their basic concept.

GilesMM

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4471 on: April 16, 2024, 08:44:09 PM »
Canoo might be in danger of bankruptcy...

https://techcrunch.com/2024/04/01/canoo-spent-double-its-annual-revenue-on-the-ceos-private-jet-in-2023/
https://electrek.co/2024/04/04/canoo-spent-twice-its-annual-revenue-on-its-ceos-private-jets-last-year/

One WSJ video I watched suggested that they may run out of funding sometime this year.

Its a shame b/c I like their basic concept.


Fisker is on the ropes, Rivian is struggling, Lucid production is down, Ford interrupted Lightning production, Tesla is laying off 10%, everyone is slashing prices to stoke demand, etc, etc.

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4472 on: April 17, 2024, 07:08:51 AM »
Canoo might be in danger of bankruptcy...

https://techcrunch.com/2024/04/01/canoo-spent-double-its-annual-revenue-on-the-ceos-private-jet-in-2023/
https://electrek.co/2024/04/04/canoo-spent-twice-its-annual-revenue-on-its-ceos-private-jets-last-year/

One WSJ video I watched suggested that they may run out of funding sometime this year.

Its a shame b/c I like their basic concept.


Fisker is on the ropes, Rivian is struggling, Lucid production is down, Ford interrupted Lightning production, Tesla is laying off 10%, everyone is slashing prices to stoke demand, etc, etc.

Is it the charging thing?  This article says the hybrids are still doing well.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/us-automakers-race-build-more-hybrids-ev-sales-slow-2024-03-15/

I've seen some articles about engines that look like they would work rather well as "range extenders." 

The rotary engine has had difficulties but using it at constant RPM and with its smaller size it may be a good fit.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterlyon/2024/02/06/will-mazda-continue-to-make-rotary-engine-powered-cars/?sh=107658b71d1f

Then there's this Spanish engine.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a46013000/innegine-ev-range-extender/

Both these engines seem to minimize the extra weight penalty a vehicle would suffer for occasional ICE use.  Most people's trips are short.  The vehicle could run on battery 95 percent of the time and only use the engines for trips.

Both the electric cars and the hybrids benefit from the new battery technology of which "Gee whiz" articles are continually written.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4473 on: April 17, 2024, 07:21:33 AM »
In regards to batteries, BYD just announced their 2nd gen blade battery, half the size, cost and weight as first Gen while having 30% more capacity.
Or so I have heard from usually well informed circles (not like I can read Chinese).

Also BYD (already) owns the Chinese electric car market even more, with more than 1/3 of e-cars sold there BYD, Tesla as second coming in with single digit.

Currently I can't see any of the American car makers getting a foot into that price range for lack of volume, and they will never get that volume with their prices.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4474 on: April 18, 2024, 04:45:24 PM »
I've been running trip scenarios using ABTP and travel by Kona is not bad. A couple of charges over several hundred miles.

And the charge stops aren't even always that long as EV owners know well. 20 minutes here, 30 minutes there. Sometimes not even 20 minutes if the trip ends at our house and we're not that far away.

Is the Tesla and the Tesla network the superior tool compared to a Kona or Leaf? Surely.

First there is Elon. Nope. Not at this time. Then there's the fact that I'm not prepared to go that financially deep into buying a new or used EV right now.  I could delay another year but then I can't gift our ancient Honda to our eldest who wants it and kind of needs it now.

So the contest remains between a low mileage Leaf Plus or a Kona. I think for the money, a used Kona (or a Niro) gets us into a low mile capable EV at around $20K. Then we can cash flow our youngest through college w/o college loans. 

Doesn't matter which one we choose. As a second car it will seldom leave the county. When it does, it won't likely go more than one fast charge in any direction. Unless the novelty of EV travel really captures our hearts. 

TLDR:Kona vs Leaf Plus vs nothing at all for reasons of cost and utility. And nope on Elon for the foreseeable future.

Be aware if those aren't equipped with heat pumps, in the cold you will lose 1/3rd of your range to the heating system. Mostly for the battery but also for the cabin. Heated seats (ideally both rows) and steering wheel are key to longer ranges in the winter, because they're even more efficient than a heat pump, by heating you directly.

At 20k you should also be seeing bolts and mach es. Probably others too soon. Telsa price drops have been hammering the whole used ev market, which is good if you're a buyer.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4475 on: April 19, 2024, 09:04:14 AM »
I did my first "road trip" in my husband's EV6. For work, I sometimes go to an undeveloped area for field work. The destination on Tuesday was 145km Northwest from my home. No highway driving, some gravel roads and a lot of elevation changes for southern Ontario.

I left the garage at 100% charge and 524km of range. It was perfect weather: sunny but cool. I got to the site with 335km range remaining. On the way home, I stopped at a brand new level 2 Flo charging station in a park parking area. I decided to test the charger while I found a public washroom and stretched my legs and ate an orange. I didn't need to charge. But I thought - what the heck, I need to stop. First two hours are free.

35 minutes later, I am ready to do the last 90 minutes of driving. I can't unplug the car. I had phone service but just barely. My phone would not connect to the flo charger instructions. Or the car instructions website. I was totally panicked for a few minutes. It was past 5pm, I had driven over 3 hours already and I wanted to be home.

A call to DH at home to ask how - wtf. He did a quick search. The car had locked itself to the charger. All I had to do was turn the car off, and unlock it before unplugging it. We have had the car for a year and a half and didn't know about this feature.

I got home, still secretly please with myself but for that little blib in a small Ontario town's community park parking lot at one of the 3 level 2 chargers in the town. And all the towns along the way now have them.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4476 on: April 19, 2024, 09:51:07 AM »

A call to DH at home to ask how - wtf. He did a quick search. The car had locked itself to the charger. All I had to do was turn the car off, and unlock it before unplugging it. We have had the car for a year and a half and didn't know about this feature.


Yeah, that surprised us as well, but is one of those "It's a feature, not a bug"... 
Since cars are left plugged in for extended periods of time, owners wanted to keep others from unplugging their car and plugging in their own.  So now you can lock the charging cable to the car.

ours has three 'modes' :  Never lock charger, Lock until Charging is Complete or Always Lock (need key and car off to unlock).

There has been a number of things like that which surprised us.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4477 on: April 19, 2024, 10:04:49 AM »

A call to DH at home to ask how - wtf. He did a quick search. The car had locked itself to the charger. All I had to do was turn the car off, and unlock it before unplugging it. We have had the car for a year and a half and didn't know about this feature.


Yeah, that surprised us as well, but is one of those "It's a feature, not a bug"... 
Since cars are left plugged in for extended periods of time, owners wanted to keep others from unplugging their car and plugging in their own.  So now you can lock the charging cable to the car.

ours has three 'modes' :  Never lock charger, Lock until Charging is Complete or Always Lock (need key and car off to unlock).

There has been a number of things like that which surprised us.

I like the way our Polestar handles it. There is an actual unlock button right next to the charger port that only works if it detects the key in your pocket.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4478 on: April 19, 2024, 11:01:04 AM »
Be aware if those aren't equipped with heat pumps, in the cold you will lose 1/3rd of your range to the heating system. Mostly for the battery but also for the cabin. Heated seats (ideally both rows) and steering wheel are key to longer ranges in the winter, because they're even more efficient than a heat pump, by heating you directly.

At 20k you should also be seeing bolts and mach es. Probably others too soon. Telsa price drops have been hammering the whole used ev market, which is good if you're a buyer.

I have coworkers with Bolts and MachEs. Neither are very appealing to me for purely aesthetic reasons. Nice cars though. The Bolt and its EUV cousin seem to have narrow cabins. The MachE has too much display.

I'm really attracted to the Hyundai Kona's buttons. And range. And I'll make certain - but I'm pretty sure the higher trim levels of the Hyundai have heat pumps. Yes, I recognize the importance of that.

An EV would have been perfect for last night's errand. I needed to drive ~150 miles to pickup something and then immediately return home. Most EVs now would be capable of that trip. Arrive at destination, charge for 35-40 minutes and drive home again. All highway. That said, I set the cruise of our ten year old MDX V6 at ~73 mph, ran the a/c part of the way and it returned 31.5 mpg.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4479 on: April 19, 2024, 11:04:26 AM »
The car had locked itself to the charger. All I had to do was turn the car off, and unlock it before unplugging it. We have had the car for a year and a half and didn't know about this feature.

Hurray for a good trip. I was stymied by the same feature on a Nissan Leaf once early in my intro to EV days. Same solution.

I did see people on the web that had cord lock failures. There are ways to retract that locking pin manually once the charging power is off. Hope to never have that issue.   

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4480 on: April 19, 2024, 01:11:29 PM »
Be aware if those aren't equipped with heat pumps, in the cold you will lose 1/3rd of your range to the heating system.

I'm really glad you brought this up. I went reading and it looks like the EU versions have heat pumps in the newer models but perhaps not the USA....

I've been watching EV videos for the EU versions and didn't consider that the USA version might not have a heat pump.

So... I'll visit the Kona forums. A heat pump is a key piece of equipment for me. The lack of one wouldn't hurt our around town usage but I want the efficiency and range of a heat pump equipped vehicle.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2024, 01:19:54 PM by Just Joe »

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4481 on: April 20, 2024, 02:12:06 PM »
I'm really glad you brought this up. I went reading and it looks like the EU versions have heat pumps in the newer models but perhaps not the USA....

I've been watching EV videos for the EU versions and didn't consider that the USA version might not have a heat pump.

So... I'll visit the Kona forums. A heat pump is a key piece of equipment for me. The lack of one wouldn't hurt our around town usage but I want the efficiency and range of a heat pump equipped vehicle.

Yeah it is silly there's such a push for heat pumps in the residential space (water heaters, hvac) but most of the non-tesla EVs don't have them and a lot of brands don't even offer them.

Higher tier Hyundai/Kia did, at least back in the EV6/Ioniq 5 were new era, I think? But I don't know if that holds to new models, or to the non-flagship models.

Note also that seat heaters are still more efficient than the heat pump. If you have any regularity of 2nd row usage, try to get something with rear seat heaters. We tried add-ins this winter and they work but are... not great. Lots less heat than the builtin ones and you have to deal with the power cable which is a pain for carpooling to school.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4482 on: April 20, 2024, 03:28:58 PM »
I'm really glad you brought this up. I went reading and it looks like the EU versions have heat pumps in the newer models but perhaps not the USA....

I've been watching EV videos for the EU versions and didn't consider that the USA version might not have a heat pump.

So... I'll visit the Kona forums. A heat pump is a key piece of equipment for me. The lack of one wouldn't hurt our around town usage but I want the efficiency and range of a heat pump equipped vehicle.

Yeah it is silly there's such a push for heat pumps in the residential space (water heaters, hvac) but most of the non-tesla EVs don't have them and a lot of brands don't even offer them.

Higher tier Hyundai/Kia did, at least back in the EV6/Ioniq 5 were new era, I think? But I don't know if that holds to new models, or to the non-flagship models.

Note also that seat heaters are still more efficient than the heat pump. If you have any regularity of 2nd row usage, try to get something with rear seat heaters. We tried add-ins this winter and they work but are... not great. Lots less heat than the builtin ones and you have to deal with the power cable which is a pain for carpooling to school.

Is the heat pump assembly in a car much more complex than the air conditioner.  Is there a way the air conditioner can be reversed like a heat pump in a home?

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4483 on: April 20, 2024, 03:59:46 PM »
I'm really glad you brought this up. I went reading and it looks like the EU versions have heat pumps in the newer models but perhaps not the USA....

I've been watching EV videos for the EU versions and didn't consider that the USA version might not have a heat pump.

So... I'll visit the Kona forums. A heat pump is a key piece of equipment for me. The lack of one wouldn't hurt our around town usage but I want the efficiency and range of a heat pump equipped vehicle.

Yeah it is silly there's such a push for heat pumps in the residential space (water heaters, hvac) but most of the non-tesla EVs don't have them and a lot of brands don't even offer them.

Higher tier Hyundai/Kia did, at least back in the EV6/Ioniq 5 were new era, I think? But I don't know if that holds to new models, or to the non-flagship models.

Note also that seat heaters are still more efficient than the heat pump. If you have any regularity of 2nd row usage, try to get something with rear seat heaters. We tried add-ins this winter and they work but are... not great. Lots less heat than the builtin ones and you have to deal with the power cable which is a pain for carpooling to school.

Is the heat pump assembly in a car much more complex than the air conditioner.  Is there a way the air conditioner can be reversed like a heat pump in a home?


I suspect this is mostly an issue in the automotive supply chain. The companies that supply parts for the major automakers have been making ever cheaper and ever more efficient AC’s for the past ~50 years. They make a lot of them cheaply and with good quality.

No one has asked them to design a heat-pump for automotive purposes until a few years ago.  An automaker that wants a heat pump needs to put scarce R&D dollars into developing their own.

I’m no engineer, but the little bit I’ve researched indicates the underlying heat transfer stuff is much more complicated than simply having a heat pump. There’s heat that needs to be added or subtracted from the battery, motors, and cabin. There are occasions where one might be cooled and one might need heat at the same time. It’s suspected that some models generate heat by using the motors in a slightly inefficient way, and then transferring that heat to the battery or cabin. It’s all fascinating, and above my head. I’d pay more attention to real world reviews than simply looking for a heat pump on the options list.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4484 on: April 20, 2024, 04:41:21 PM »
I suspect this is mostly an issue in the automotive supply chain. The companies that supply parts for the major automakers have been making ever cheaper and ever more efficient AC’s for the past ~50 years. They make a lot of them cheaply and with good quality.

No one has asked them to design a heat-pump for automotive purposes until a few years ago.  An automaker that wants a heat pump needs to put scarce R&D dollars into developing their own.

I’m no engineer, but the little bit I’ve researched indicates the underlying heat transfer stuff is much more complicated than simply having a heat pump. There’s heat that needs to be added or subtracted from the battery, motors, and cabin. There are occasions where one might be cooled and one might need heat at the same time. It’s suspected that some models generate heat by using the motors in a slightly inefficient way, and then transferring that heat to the battery or cabin. It’s all fascinating, and above my head. I’d pay more attention to real world reviews than simply looking for a heat pump on the options list.

Yes, you are exactly right, it's complicated and not binary at all.  Tesla discovered they needed design an octovalve heat pump.  Which allows for 8 different routings of heat/air from a single location. 

Even with that, they put in heated seats for all passengers and a heated steering wheel for the driver because heating the body directly is far more efficient than heating the air.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4485 on: April 20, 2024, 05:15:03 PM »
Also, a home heat pump exchanges heat with a relatively steady, underground temperature environment, which helps it be efficient in either direction.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4486 on: April 20, 2024, 06:14:19 PM »
Also, a home heat pump exchanges heat with a relatively steady, underground temperature environment, which helps it be efficient in either direction.

I do believe you are right if they are the more expensive geothermal heat pumps.  However, the internet gives this description:

"An air-source or air-to-air heat pump can provide both heating and cooling.

    In the winter, a heat pump extracts heat from outside air and delivers it indoors.
    On hot summer days, it works in reverse, extracting heat from room air and pumping it outdoors to cool the house."

In my climate, I think I'd need the geothermal type.



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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4487 on: April 20, 2024, 08:38:47 PM »
Is the heat pump assembly in a car much more complex than the air conditioner.  Is there a way the air conditioner can be reversed like a heat pump in a home?

No. You add a 50 cent reversing valve.

Okay its technically more than that (you need to add defrosting capability to the 'outside' unit when heating the car), but... not actually much more. It really is almost that simple. Which makes the bonkers cost premium being placed on heat pumps (of any variety) by HVAC manufacturers/installers downright galling.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4488 on: April 20, 2024, 08:59:50 PM »
I do believe you are right if they are the more expensive geothermal heat pumps.  However, the internet gives this description:

"An air-source or air-to-air heat pump can provide both heating and cooling.

    In the winter, a heat pump extracts heat from outside air and delivers it indoors.
    On hot summer days, it works in reverse, extracting heat from room air and pumping it outdoors to cool the house."

In my climate, I think I'd need the geothermal type.

It is unlikely you need a geothermal. I mean there's reasons to love them -- I had one at my old house and they are very very quiet compared to air sourced. But (modern) air source heat pumps can work just fine down to at/below zero F and you'll have backup electric strip heat installed in case it gets colder than that. Our geothermal (circa 2007) had issues producing enough heat below about 20F and flipped on the strip heat. I'm not sure the geothermal manufacturers have kept, design-wise. Which is a pity, because they should be be able to hit higher efficiencies due to that stable ground temperature just like heat pump water heaters are silly efficient (the water heater can assume it is always working with interior temperature air).

Think about the heat pump problem in Kelvin and the problem looks much better. Okay yes, moving heat from 255K to 295K you're clearly working against the temperature gradient. But there's still a lot of heat around to move around, even at 0F aka 255K.

See also: https://www.energy.gov/eere/buildings/residential-cold-climate-heat-pump-challenge

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4489 on: April 20, 2024, 10:20:49 PM »
It’s suspected that some models generate heat by using the motors in a slightly inefficient way, and then transferring that heat to the battery or cabin. It’s all fascinating, and above my head. I’d pay more attention to real world reviews than simply looking for a heat pump on the options list.

Tesla does this in some of their models when the car was stationary.

Nyland talks about it in this video: https://youtu.be/j0C6YzJDgrQ?t=338

In that video the Tesla had the PTC heater, the Kia had the heat pump. I watched for a long time assuming it was the other way around. ;)

I've decided that a heat pump is important but perhaps not a deal breaker. We have on average milder winters than other parts of the country. While the Leaf has a heat pump, it has an aircooled battery. The typical Kona right now has a PTC heater but it has an actively cooled battery. A good thing in a region that has more challenges with hot summers than cold winters. Maybe our second (next used) EV someday will have a heat pump and an actively cooled battery.

I don't think we can go wrong. Our needs are modest.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2024, 10:26:54 PM by Just Joe »

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4490 on: April 21, 2024, 05:40:34 PM »
The Kia Niro has an option for a heat pump.  When we were looking, we couldn't find a Niro that wasn't loaded with about $7k additional options, but now that they aren't selling so quickly, it may be an option.  FWIW, we survived the NC winter without it, and it didn't ding our mi/kWh much, although most of our driving is very local.  Start it remotely a few minutes early, and it will be toasty!

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4491 on: April 21, 2024, 08:16:13 PM »
Thank you for your wisdom Geekette!

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4492 on: April 22, 2024, 07:12:06 AM »
Even with that, they put in heated seats for all passengers and a heated steering wheel for the driver because heating the body directly is far more efficient than heating the air.

How does that work with defrosting?  Hot air coming out of people hitting cold windows quickly makes an opaque layer of frost.  Even if you've got a front window heater blowing directly on the main windscreen, all the side windows are going to frost over from the moisture from passenger breath without a warm enough cabin.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4493 on: April 22, 2024, 07:25:38 AM »
Even with that, they put in heated seats for all passengers and a heated steering wheel for the driver because heating the body directly is far more efficient than heating the air.

How does that work with defrosting?  Hot air coming out of people hitting cold windows quickly makes an opaque layer of frost.  Even if you've got a front window heater blowing directly on the main windscreen, all the side windows are going to frost over from the moisture from passenger breath without a warm enough cabin.
There is a conventional heated air / ac defrost and heat blower as well. They don't need to run on high when your butt and hands are toasty.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4494 on: April 22, 2024, 07:36:32 AM »
While the cold weather impact is a thing, I also want to point out that it is blown WAY out of proportion.  Here's some anecdotes based on my experience with a Rivian.  It doesn't have a heat pump, but it supposedly isn't impacted by cold as much as Ford's or some other brands.  So research each specific brand.  But my statements below would still hold true in most other circumstances.

It has zero impact on my day-to-day driving where I'm maybe driving tens-of-miles at most.  The car gets plugged in at the end of the day and I start each day with a 70% charge.  I can't even notice the difference in range on these days.

My winter efficiency runs at 2mi/kWh.  My summer efficiency runs at 2.25mi/kWh.  This factors in the combination of cold weather, less efficient snow tires, and I generally make a higher percentage of low-mileage (less efficient) trips in the winter.  This is an 11% efficiency drop on average, although individual trips obviously fall on either side of that range.  I've seen numbers like 33% range loss for Ford's, but I expect this is an extreme extreme scenario, and not a day-to-day scenario.

For our December holiday road-trip, cold weather had literally zero impact on our driving plans.  Our plan was to leave Denver around 8pm on a Thursday night.  It was a late departure because of a kids event, and wanting to get to Los Angeles by Saturday.  The plan was to just make it to Glenwood Springs that night (easily doable on a single charge, summer or winter).  It was in the low 20's when we left, and ranged in the teens and single-digits while driving through the mountains.  We ended up stopping to charge for 10-15 minutes in Silverthorne, just because the kids needed to use the bathroom.  We stayed at a hotel in Glenwood Springs right across from a DCFC.  I just plugged the car in while everyone was eating breakfast in the morning and nearly filled the battery to 100%.  Whatever range impact the cold had was not noticeable in the context of our other plans. 

We had a similar experience driving home through the mountains coming home.  We were tired and grumpy because of a long day of driving.  It was mostly single-digit temps through the mountains.  We stopped at one charger to have a quick dinner in the western rockies.  We were a little impatient, so we didn't get quite enough charge to get home.  But we stopped and charged in Silverthorne again for a quick bathroom break, and that got us the rest of the way home.  I didn't measure the cold impact, but it impacted our charging times by no more than a minute or two.  Our other needs to stop for food and bathrooms were the bigger driver of stopping needs. 

I just wouldn't worry too much about the practical impacts of cold unless you do a lot of long road trips in sub-zero temperatures. 

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4495 on: April 22, 2024, 07:40:04 AM »
Even with that, they put in heated seats for all passengers and a heated steering wheel for the driver because heating the body directly is far more efficient than heating the air.

How does that work with defrosting?  Hot air coming out of people hitting cold windows quickly makes an opaque layer of frost.  Even if you've got a front window heater blowing directly on the main windscreen, all the side windows are going to frost over from the moisture from passenger breath without a warm enough cabin.
There is a conventional heated air / ac defrost and heat blower as well. They don't need to run on high when your butt and hands are toasty.

Also, a minor benefit of EV's is that the defrost works crazy fast.  An ICE car requires you to turn on the engine and burn gas for ~5-10 minutes to warm it up.  An EV heats the air directly.  I can get to a fully defrosted windshield on an icy morning in 1-2 minutes.

I personally don't get a huge benefit from the seat-heaters, as my kids are still on booster seats.  But it is technically more efficient to set the cabin heat at maybe 65 and use the seat warmers than to set the cabin at 70.  I usually just set the cabin at 70 though. 

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4496 on: April 22, 2024, 08:02:09 AM »
At first I was confused why the car was running the A/C in the winter, but yeah, it's really working as a dehumidifier, since the air blowing out is still warm.

We were averaging 4.3mi/kWh in the Niro, but with the cold weather it went down to...4.2.  But it's a small crossover and we don't do mountains or single digits around here!

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4497 on: April 22, 2024, 08:08:26 AM »
Even with that, they put in heated seats for all passengers and a heated steering wheel for the driver because heating the body directly is far more efficient than heating the air.

How does that work with defrosting?  Hot air coming out of people hitting cold windows quickly makes an opaque layer of frost.  Even if you've got a front window heater blowing directly on the main windscreen, all the side windows are going to frost over from the moisture from passenger breath without a warm enough cabin.
There is a conventional heated air / ac defrost and heat blower as well. They don't need to run on high when your butt and hands are toasty.

Also, a minor benefit of EV's is that the defrost works crazy fast.  An ICE car requires you to turn on the engine and burn gas for ~5-10 minutes to warm it up.  An EV heats the air directly.  I can get to a fully defrosted windshield on an icy morning in 1-2 minutes.

I'm just thinking about my own Corolla here.  In the winter I am usually doing 30ish minute trips in the car and exclusively run the cabin heater full on the windscreen for defrosting purposes because it takes so long.  If the cabin is too cold (say ten or fifteen below with a windchill on top of that), the windows will be completely clear when you get in but ice over really fast from your breath after a couple minutes driving and can rapidly become scary/dangerous.  I wonder if the fast defrost would solve this problem.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4498 on: April 22, 2024, 09:33:53 AM »
One other cool thing about an EV is you can heat it up remotely.  I have a garage so it's nice because I can preheat it while putting on my shoes and it takes about 2 minutes to get fully warm. 

I imagine if I had to park on the street it would be even nicer to preheat and defrost the car remotely while I was still getting ready inside the house.  If you try to do that in an ICE car here on Denver, you get a ticket or get your car stolen (they are called 'puffers' and they are a magnet for theft).

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #4499 on: April 22, 2024, 02:00:11 PM »
Link #1 is a by-model survey of how much range EV's lose in the winter.  It's actually more than I expected based on my experience, although my model isn't listed.

https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss

 

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