Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[Paper Chaser]

Recent AAA survey indicates interest in EVs has declined:  https://newsroom.aaa.com/2025/06/aaa-ev-survey/



In 2022, gas was $5/gal, tax breaks were abundant, governments and OEMs were planning "All-EV" futures, and EVs weren't depreciating (or saw appreciation in some cases) due to supply chain shortages.

Now, gas is $3.13/gal (today per AAA's data), tax breaks are wavering, many "All-EV" plans are being walked back, and EV's have seen significant depreciation which resulted in the second highest "Total Ownership Costs" in 2024:

https://newsroom.aaa.com/2024/09/aaa-your-driving-costs-the-price-of-new-car-ownership-continues-to-climb/




If you have a place to charge regularly, and can buy a used EV, they can be very compelling as many in this thread have done lately. But the hype and trajectory of EV's taking over certainly seems to have slowed among Americans.

[GilesMM]

Recent AAA survey indicates interest in EVs has declined:  https://newsroom.aaa.com/2025/06/aaa-ev-survey/

..

Interest may have declined but actual EV sales were up about 11% 1Q2025 vs a year ago.

[Bartlebooth]

The US may be on a backswing of sorts but it is not the only country in the world.  The worldwide trend shows no sign of leveling off.

https://ourworldindata.org/electric-car-sales

And the Chinese pricing which is probably driving this trend for at least the last couple years will eventually make its way into the US market, whether directly with imported Chinese cars or via the rest of the manufacturers somehow becoming competitive.  Both seem equally unlikely but I am skeptical that a realistic 3rd option exists.

ETA:

Note that worldwide EV adoption has been higher than US adoption since 2017.

I somewhat retract my point...the thread title is in "in the United States".

[Tyson]

I'm not sure why EV's haven't been adopted by the right, here in the US.  Most of the people I know on the right have 'self reliance' as a core value.  To me, having an EV that you can charge at home makes you way more self reliant than those suckers that still have to go to a gas station every week. 

Put up some solar panels and some batteries on your house and you can go off grid completely and be even more self-reliant.

[GuitarStv]

Nothing about modern social conservatism values self-reliance.  Social conservatives want to impose their religious and moral views upon others through big government violence.  Cuts to government programs are only appealing to them when the cuts are designed to cause suffering to people who share different views, sex, religion, or skin colour.

[LennStar]

I'm not sure why EV's haven't been adopted by the right, here in the US.  Most of the people I know on the right have 'self reliance' as a core value.  To me, having an EV that you can charge at home makes you way more self reliant than those suckers that still have to go to a gas station every week. 

Put up some solar panels and some batteries on your house and you can go off grid completely and be even more self-reliant.

Solar electrics are delicate. A gas guzzler can just drink veggie oil you hand-pressed from the plants in your garden. Or used to be able to. One of the pioneers of biofuel made his car run on old french fries frying fat. You could always smell when he was driving down the road.

[Just Joe]

I continue to be impressed with how easily some people can be steered by the media and politicians. With "falling demand" articles a portion of the population will avoid EVs like they are made of kryptonite which helps ensure there will be "falling demand".

We took a weekend "vacation" in our's recently. Drove across our state, drove up in the mtns, etc.

Nothing beats an EV for silence when rolling through a national park enjoying nature. Also regen was VERY nice on slow, steep roads. Bump up the regen and coast. 

Of course the nitwits on the straight pipe (no muffler) Harley-Davidsons (x8) were fun... Fortunately our encounter with their racket was only a few minutes although we could hear them long after we couldn't see them. 

[AccidentialMustache]

Solar electrics are delicate. A gas guzzler can just drink veggie oil you hand-pressed from the plants in your garden. Or used to be able to. One of the pioneers of biofuel made his car run on old french fries frying fat. You could always smell when he was driving down the road.

I thought all the used-oil types were running diesel cars. There aren't a lot of diesel cars here.

An oversized solar array while expensive is a lot smaller than the acreage you'd need to farm to actually provide enough oil for your average of 13k miles/year here. You wouldn't want to do it by hand, but then you need more fuel for your farm equipment (unless it eats hay). 56 gal of oil/acre in the midwest, at 39 mpg you'd need 333 gal which is about 6 acres. That's a lot by hand. Canola would do 111 gal/acre so you'd only need 3 but I'd assume that's a denser planting than soy is so YMMV on effort even if less acres.

If you really want independent, buy property with a river and a slope and put in a 6 kW+ generator. Rugged and simple too. Turbine. Electric motor. Not much more going on there. Vulnerable to drought but so are plants. 

[41_swish]

I rode and e-bike for the first time this weekend and realized just how much of my car trips one could replace. You can pedal 20 mph without barely even trying. I know this is about cars, but for the right use case, buying an e bike could accomplish a lot of your goals.

[LennStar]

I rode and e-bike for the first time this weekend and realized just how much of my car trips one could replace. You can pedal 20 mph without barely even trying. I know this is about cars, but for the right use case, buying an e bike could accomplish a lot of your goals.

Ebikes shorten distances and flatten hills. I think if more Americans would get an ebike, EVs would get more attractive.
Of course only if you could actually use your bike daily, not a high chance in the US infrastructure.

[Frugal Lizard]

My husband got an e-bike soon after I got our Leaf. With our son also loving driving the Leaf, the e-bike made sense for those errands that you just want done quicker than walking or those one that don't need a car and the hassle of a parking space. Two years later he had to replace his car and got an EV.

I want an e-bike and am doing physiotherapy to heal enough from a pelvic injury to be able to bike again. Because the bike would be so much more convenient for those multiple stops convenience trips. Our town is super hilly. And we live on the top of one of them. I used DH's bike quite often before I was injured, despite it being too big for me. They are so much fun.

[Just Joe]

I rode and e-bike for the first time this weekend and realized just how much of my car trips one could replace. You can pedal 20 mph without barely even trying. I know this is about cars, but for the right use case, buying an e bike could accomplish a lot of your goals.

Around here an ebike's ability to flatten hills is the important part, not speed b/c there is nary a flat spot to be found. Even the hilly route from town to my rural house is doable given enough time. I'd like to have more quiet roads to ride on though. Our local growth has made the roads busier than I am comfortable with. The political situation (red state) means it is highly unlikely any bike paths will be constructed to assist. We would benefit from a spoke and hub route system but this town struggles to have a useable sidewalk system for pedestrians.

If DW retires and I have not yet, I will ebike to work and back more often. These days I am the designated driver until she is able again.

[41_swish]

I am seriously considering saving up ~1500 and using my Colorado tax credit on one. I will probably demo one in my day to day life before buying, but they seem pretty versatile if you have solid bike infrastructure by you

[Just Joe]

Took a trip to the mtns in our Kona recently. Found another couple great features of EV life.

First, no noise or very little when doing the park drive through thing. EBikes offer the same feature and I have gotten quite close to several animals that way on the country roads near our house. One was a big owl dining on roadkill at the edge of the road. I was able to get within tens of feet and just watch.

Another is the regen braking. While we were in the national park, a car rolled past us with stinky brakes. Rather than shift down and let the transmission hold them back, they rode the brakes down the mtn. Flat-lander visitor perhaps. ;) We rode the regen down the same mountain roads and gained a few miles of range in the process which is always nice. Didn't even need to touch the pedal.

Had our first charger outage experience this morn leaving the big metro headed back to our town. Our favored chargers were completely off. They are located at an electric cooperative and nobody inside could tell us why. Hmmm.... Drove a few miles and charged at a Hyundai dealer on slower Chargepoint DCFC equipment.

The cost savings is excellent. ~$3 overnight at home on our L2 charger and then ~$12 on the way home from the big metro at the DCFC versus ~$35 with our SUV.

[neo von retorch]

This was my first week actually putting some miles on the car. Nothing like you road trippers - my car is a commuter only.

But I drove ~45 miles to see my nephew, 45 back on Monday starting from ~67%. So my car has been plugged in a lot more this week. Only on level 1 (120 V / 15 A) charging so I get ~1.3 kW/h. Commute Tuesday/Wednesday ~26 miles round trip each day. Back to 80% as of Thursday 8:30 AM.

Still haven't been to a Level 2/3 charger of any kind though. Plugging and unplugging is really easy so my "worst" week so far mean 15 extra seconds of walking over and grabbing a cord :)

Average is still just over 3 miles / kWh but seeing 4 a bit more often and hit 4.35 (new record) the other day. Warmer weather makes a big difference.

[jrhampt]

I’m still averaging over 5 miles/kwh, but it is nice and warm and I rarely take it on the highway.  Found a free charger where I can plug in during yoga class.  I did panic at how fast the range goes down on a hilly highway but I’m trying to get used to it and phase out my range anxiety.

[neo von retorch]

I’m still averaging over 5 miles/kwh, but it is nice and warm and I rarely take it on the highway.  Found a free charger where I can plug in during yoga class.  I did panic at how fast the range goes down on a hilly highway but I’m trying to get used to it and phase out my range anxiety.

I don't recall what you have, but there are occasions where I wish I'd gotten an Ioniq 6 instead of a Polestar 2 so I could chase efficiency numbers instead of go really fast (which I juuuuuuuuust about never do.)

[Just Joe]

I’m still averaging over 5 miles/kwh, but it is nice and warm and I rarely take it on the highway.  Found a free charger where I can plug in during yoga class.  I did panic at how fast the range goes down on a hilly highway but I’m trying to get used to it and phase out my range anxiety.

As our daily trips have become consistent our predicted range has settled down to a believable predicted mileage. Before because we used the car so much locally, our highway mileage was very optimistic.

Each day I set the cruise for 71 mph and sometimes as high as 73 mph. The car does a good job at those speeds. If I try to run 75+ mph then I see the range really start to sag.

[Just Joe]

https://youtu.be/ypj2ii--1Uc

So China has self-driving trucks too now. Things seem to move faster in China. Wondering how that is.

[rothwem]

I rode and e-bike for the first time this weekend and realized just how much of my car trips one could replace. You can pedal 20 mph without barely even trying. I know this is about cars, but for the right use case, buying an e bike could accomplish a lot of your goals.

I’m kinda jelly. Distance-wise, an ebike could do most of what I could do with a car, we just have zero bike infrastructure and I just don’t feel comfortable taking my kids on the roads here for daycare runs. One of my friends in a different town does his daycare drops with an e-cargo bike, his 4 year old thinks it’s the awesomest thing ever to ride on the back.

[41_swish]

@rothwem I feel very fortunate to live somewhere with decent bike infrastructure. It is not perfect, but there is enough mixed use paths and dedicated bike lanes that it would make have an e-bike a very pleasant experience. Heck, I already try to do most of my trips on my regular bike, Trek Marlin.

[BuffaloStache]

I’m still averaging over 5 miles/kwh, but it is nice and warm and I rarely take it on the highway.  Found a free charger where I can plug in during yoga class.  I did panic at how fast the range goes down on a hilly highway but I’m trying to get used to it and phase out my range anxiety.

I don't recall what you have, but there are occasions where I wish I'd gotten an Ioniq 6 instead of a Polestar 2 so I could chase efficiency numbers instead of go really fast (which I juuuuuuuuust about never do.)

I'm curious which EV this is with as well- those are excellent numbers. Is that a lifetime average or just over the past month (since it's been warmer out)? My lifetime average in my Chevy Bolt EUV is 4.6 mi/kWh, and I feel pretty good about that. For some days/weeks in the summer I can average above 5, but then the winter-time cold temps lower that average.

Reminder to everyone here: Even 3 mi/kWh equates to >100 mpge. I just don't see how you can touch that level of efficiency in a gas powered ICE car.  :-)

[RWD]

I’m still averaging over 5 miles/kwh, but it is nice and warm and I rarely take it on the highway.  Found a free charger where I can plug in during yoga class.  I did panic at how fast the range goes down on a hilly highway but I’m trying to get used to it and phase out my range anxiety.

I don't recall what you have, but there are occasions where I wish I'd gotten an Ioniq 6 instead of a Polestar 2 so I could chase efficiency numbers instead of go really fast (which I juuuuuuuuust about never do.)

I'm curious which EV this is with as well- those are excellent numbers. Is that a lifetime average or just over the past month (since it's been warmer out)? My lifetime average in my Chevy Bolt EUV is 4.6 mi/kWh, and I feel pretty good about that. For some days/weeks in the summer I can average above 5, but then the winter-time cold temps lower that average.

Reminder to everyone here: Even 3 mi/kWh equates to >100 mpge. I just don't see how you can touch that level of efficiency in a gas powered ICE car.  :-)

It's a Bolt:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/has-anyone-bought-a-chevy-bolt-with-a-buybacklemon-title/msg3362570/#msg3362570

[GilesMM]

I’m still averaging over 5 miles/kwh, but it is nice and warm and I rarely take it on the highway.  Found a free charger where I can plug in during yoga class.  I did panic at how fast the range goes down on a hilly highway but I’m trying to get used to it and phase out my range anxiety.

I don't recall what you have, but there are occasions where I wish I'd gotten an Ioniq 6 instead of a Polestar 2 so I could chase efficiency numbers instead of go really fast (which I juuuuuuuuust about never do.)

I'm curious which EV this is with as well- those are excellent numbers. Is that a lifetime average or just over the past month (since it's been warmer out)? My lifetime average in my Chevy Bolt EUV is 4.6 mi/kWh, and I feel pretty good about that. For some days/weeks in the summer I can average above 5, but then the winter-time cold temps lower that average.

Reminder to everyone here: Even 3 mi/kWh equates to >100 mpge. I just don't see how you can touch that level of efficiency in a gas powered ICE car.  :-)

I think the newer Toyota Yaris Cross hybrid gets a bit over 100 mpg in city driving.  Not bad.

[RWD]

I’m still averaging over 5 miles/kwh, but it is nice and warm and I rarely take it on the highway.  Found a free charger where I can plug in during yoga class.  I did panic at how fast the range goes down on a hilly highway but I’m trying to get used to it and phase out my range anxiety.

I don't recall what you have, but there are occasions where I wish I'd gotten an Ioniq 6 instead of a Polestar 2 so I could chase efficiency numbers instead of go really fast (which I juuuuuuuuust about never do.)

I'm curious which EV this is with as well- those are excellent numbers. Is that a lifetime average or just over the past month (since it's been warmer out)? My lifetime average in my Chevy Bolt EUV is 4.6 mi/kWh, and I feel pretty good about that. For some days/weeks in the summer I can average above 5, but then the winter-time cold temps lower that average.

Reminder to everyone here: Even 3 mi/kWh equates to >100 mpge. I just don't see how you can touch that level of efficiency in a gas powered ICE car.  :-)

I think the newer Toyota Yaris Cross hybrid gets a bit over 100 mpg in city driving.  Not bad.

WTF are you talking about? Toyota's UK page says 62.7 mpg and don't forget that the UK uses Imperial gallons which have 20% more volume than US gallons. So that's more like 52.3 mpg (US). And then it's also tested on WLTP which is less strict than EPA.

[GilesMM]

I’m still averaging over 5 miles/kwh, but it is nice and warm and I rarely take it on the highway.  Found a free charger where I can plug in during yoga class.  I did panic at how fast the range goes down on a hilly highway but I’m trying to get used to it and phase out my range anxiety.

I don't recall what you have, but there are occasions where I wish I'd gotten an Ioniq 6 instead of a Polestar 2 so I could chase efficiency numbers instead of go really fast (which I juuuuuuuuust about never do.)

I'm curious which EV this is with as well- those are excellent numbers. Is that a lifetime average or just over the past month (since it's been warmer out)? My lifetime average in my Chevy Bolt EUV is 4.6 mi/kWh, and I feel pretty good about that. For some days/weeks in the summer I can average above 5, but then the winter-time cold temps lower that average.

Reminder to everyone here: Even 3 mi/kWh equates to >100 mpge. I just don't see how you can touch that level of efficiency in a gas powered ICE car.  :-)

I think the newer Toyota Yaris Cross hybrid gets a bit over 100 mpg in city driving.  Not bad.

WTF are you talking about? Toyota's UK page says 62.7 mpg and don't forget that the UK uses Imperial gallons which have 20% more volume than US gallons. So that's more like 52.3 mpg (US). And then it's also tested on WLTP which is less strict than EPA.

You are confusing combined mpg with city mpg.  See here ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piTVCXM-EWc

[jrhampt]

I’m still averaging over 5 miles/kwh, but it is nice and warm and I rarely take it on the highway.  Found a free charger where I can plug in during yoga class.  I did panic at how fast the range goes down on a hilly highway but I’m trying to get used to it and phase out my range anxiety.

I don't recall what you have, but there are occasions where I wish I'd gotten an Ioniq 6 instead of a Polestar 2 so I could chase efficiency numbers instead of go really fast (which I juuuuuuuuust about never do.)

I'm curious which EV this is with as well- those are excellent numbers. Is that a lifetime average or just over the past month (since it's been warmer out)? My lifetime average in my Chevy Bolt EUV is 4.6 mi/kWh, and I feel pretty good about that. For some days/weeks in the summer I can average above 5, but then the winter-time cold temps lower that average.

Reminder to everyone here: Even 3 mi/kWh equates to >100 mpge. I just don't see how you can touch that level of efficiency in a gas powered ICE car.  :-)

It's a Bolt:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/has-anyone-bought-a-chevy-bolt-with-a-buybacklemon-title/msg3362570/#msg3362570

Yes, it’s a Bolt; I’ve only had it for about 5 weeks so far.  I do expect it to be less efficient in the winter, but it’s been enjoying the spring weather. 

[neo von retorch]

I think the newer Toyota Yaris Cross hybrid gets a bit over 100 mpg in city driving.  Not bad.

https://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/yaris_cross/2024 56-57 mpg
https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-specs/Toyota/127435/Toyota-Yaris-Cross-15-Hybrid.html 52 mpg
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=47668 Slightly different car (Corolla Cross Hybrid) but 45 city

100 mpg seems... unlikely?

[41_swish]

100 MPG seems like something that can only happen on plug in hybrids

[RWD]

I’m still averaging over 5 miles/kwh, but it is nice and warm and I rarely take it on the highway.  Found a free charger where I can plug in during yoga class.  I did panic at how fast the range goes down on a hilly highway but I’m trying to get used to it and phase out my range anxiety.

I don't recall what you have, but there are occasions where I wish I'd gotten an Ioniq 6 instead of a Polestar 2 so I could chase efficiency numbers instead of go really fast (which I juuuuuuuuust about never do.)

I'm curious which EV this is with as well- those are excellent numbers. Is that a lifetime average or just over the past month (since it's been warmer out)? My lifetime average in my Chevy Bolt EUV is 4.6 mi/kWh, and I feel pretty good about that. For some days/weeks in the summer I can average above 5, but then the winter-time cold temps lower that average.

Reminder to everyone here: Even 3 mi/kWh equates to >100 mpge. I just don't see how you can touch that level of efficiency in a gas powered ICE car.  :-)

I think the newer Toyota Yaris Cross hybrid gets a bit over 100 mpg in city driving.  Not bad.

WTF are you talking about? Toyota's UK page says 62.7 mpg and don't forget that the UK uses Imperial gallons which have 20% more volume than US gallons. So that's more like 52.3 mpg (US). And then it's also tested on WLTP which is less strict than EPA.

You are confusing combined mpg with city mpg.  See here ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piTVCXM-EWc

No I'm not. Toyota's web site gives a range of 54.6 to 62.7 mpg. I picked the higher number. I don't know where that video gets its 100 mpg figure from but it doesn't seem like they have an actual source (certainly not better than Toyota themselves)...

[GilesMM]

I’m still averaging over 5 miles/kwh, but it is nice and warm and I rarely take it on the highway.  Found a free charger where I can plug in during yoga class.  I did panic at how fast the range goes down on a hilly highway but I’m trying to get used to it and phase out my range anxiety.

Toyota is known for being very conservative in their published mpg estimates.  Here are even more examples from real world Yaris drivers  https://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/216732-fuel-economy-hard-to-believe-this/
I don't recall what you have, but there are occasions where I wish I'd gotten an Ioniq 6 instead of a Polestar 2 so I could chase efficiency numbers instead of go really fast (which I juuuuuuuuust about never do.)

I'm curious which EV this is with as well- those are excellent numbers. Is that a lifetime average or just over the past month (since it's been warmer out)? My lifetime average in my Chevy Bolt EUV is 4.6 mi/kWh, and I feel pretty good about that. For some days/weeks in the summer I can average above 5, but then the winter-time cold temps lower that average.

Reminder to everyone here: Even 3 mi/kWh equates to >100 mpge. I just don't see how you can touch that level of efficiency in a gas powered ICE car.  :-)

I think the newer Toyota Yaris Cross hybrid gets a bit over 100 mpg in city driving.  Not bad.

WTF are you talking about? Toyota's UK page says 62.7 mpg and don't forget that the UK uses Imperial gallons which have 20% more volume than US gallons. So that's more like 52.3 mpg (US). And then it's also tested on WLTP which is less strict than EPA.

You are confusing combined mpg with city mpg.  See here ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piTVCXM-EWc

No I'm not. Toyota's web site gives a range of 54.6 to 62.7 mpg. I picked the higher number. I don't know where that video gets its 100 mpg figure from but it doesn't seem like they have an actual source (certainly not better than Toyota themselves)...

Toyota is known for being very conservative in their mpg estimates.  Here are more examples from happy Yaris drivers https://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/216732-fuel-economy-hard-to-believe-this/


Now we just need Toyota to import it to North America!

[dandarc]

"Toyota is known for being very conservative in their mpg estimates." - tell that tour 2018 Corolla iM . . .

[neo von retorch]

Since some people ignore my posts,

here's a large group of people who put enough data into a site to make it statistically significant:

https://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/yaris_cross/2024 56-57 mpg

[RWD]

I’m still averaging over 5 miles/kwh, but it is nice and warm and I rarely take it on the highway.  Found a free charger where I can plug in during yoga class.  I did panic at how fast the range goes down on a hilly highway but I’m trying to get used to it and phase out my range anxiety.

Toyota is known for being very conservative in their published mpg estimates.  Here are even more examples from real world Yaris drivers  https://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/216732-fuel-economy-hard-to-believe-this/
I don't recall what you have, but there are occasions where I wish I'd gotten an Ioniq 6 instead of a Polestar 2 so I could chase efficiency numbers instead of go really fast (which I juuuuuuuuust about never do.)

I'm curious which EV this is with as well- those are excellent numbers. Is that a lifetime average or just over the past month (since it's been warmer out)? My lifetime average in my Chevy Bolt EUV is 4.6 mi/kWh, and I feel pretty good about that. For some days/weeks in the summer I can average above 5, but then the winter-time cold temps lower that average.

Reminder to everyone here: Even 3 mi/kWh equates to >100 mpge. I just don't see how you can touch that level of efficiency in a gas powered ICE car.  :-)

I think the newer Toyota Yaris Cross hybrid gets a bit over 100 mpg in city driving.  Not bad.

WTF are you talking about? Toyota's UK page says 62.7 mpg and don't forget that the UK uses Imperial gallons which have 20% more volume than US gallons. So that's more like 52.3 mpg (US). And then it's also tested on WLTP which is less strict than EPA.

You are confusing combined mpg with city mpg.  See here ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piTVCXM-EWc

No I'm not. Toyota's web site gives a range of 54.6 to 62.7 mpg. I picked the higher number. I don't know where that video gets its 100 mpg figure from but it doesn't seem like they have an actual source (certainly not better than Toyota themselves)...

Toyota is known for being very conservative in their mpg estimates.  Here are more examples from happy Yaris drivers https://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/216732-fuel-economy-hard-to-believe-this/


Now we just need Toyota to import it to North America!

Besides the first poster who ignored the fuel filler automatic safety cutoff ("it was manual fill after auto shut off until fuel seen gurgling") everyone is reporting mid-60 to low-70 mpg numbers. Not too surprising to see +15% economy on select trips. But remember again this is UK's Imperial gallons. Even low 70s mpg is still only 60 mpg US for comparison.

As for the idiot who said 108 mpg... 1) based on the numbers given he calculated it wrong, it's actually 106.7 miles per Imperial gallon. 2) that's 88.9 miles per US gallon. 3) it was a single one way outlier trip, possibly downhill and/or tailwind average. 4) air conditioning was off and we don't know what other hypermiling tricks may have been used.

Hypermiling is nothing new. People were regularly getting 100 mpg (US) out of a ~60 mpg (EPA) car 25 years ago with the Honda Insight. That doesn't mean it was rated incorrectly. But EVs basically start at 100 MPGe and just go up from there. Some EVs even break 150 MPGe and that's the EPA rating. If you're talking about WLTP or outlier hypermiling then you're going to get close to 200 MPGe.

[BuffaloStache]

...

Hypermiling is nothing new. People were regularly getting 100 mpg (US) out of a ~60 mpg (EPA) car 25 years ago with the Honda Insight. That doesn't mean it was rated incorrectly. But EVs basically start at 100 MPGe and just go up from there. Some EVs even break 150 MPGe and that's the EPA rating. If you're talking about WLTP or outlier hypermiling then you're going to get close to 200 MPGe.

This is an important thing- The only Hypermiling "trick" I use in my Bolt EUV is that sometimes in the winter I turn on the seat heater and the steering wheel heater instead of the cabin air heater if it's just me driving in the car. Other than that, I drive the car basically normally (HVAC system and all for my entire family), and have a lifetime efficiency average of >150 MPGe with over 30k miles on it. Even the EPA rated fuel economy of this car is over 100 MPGe

...
here's a large group of people who put enough data into a site to make it statistically significant:

https://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/yaris_cross/2024 56-57 mpg

This is the sort of crowd-sourced, large data set that I like to see. Seems like a more reliable, long-term type of efficiency number someone should expect to see with a Yaris Cross.
Finally, and to be fair, ~60 MPG in a gasoline ICE car is phenomenal! It's certainly nothing to scoff at, just farther away from what most EVs can do. 

[RWD]

I once exceeded the EPA-rated highway efficency on our Polestar by 59%!
(over an 85 mile stint that dropped 2,800 feet in elevation)

[RWD]

Another thing worth mentioning is that 100 mpg in an ICE is not necessarily going to cost the same as 100 MPGe in an EV. Let's take the Yaris Cross Hybrid example from earlier being driven in the UK (it isn't sold in the US). Fuel is currently 1.3213 GBP / litre in the UK (6.753 USD / US gallon). So at the claimed 88.9 mpg (US) that's 7.6 cents (USD) per mile (6.75 cents if it magically hits 100 mpg). My Polestar conveniently has an EPA combined rating of 89 MPGe (though we've averaged 103 MPGe). Our energy costs have averaged 3.1 cents per mile. The break even point when comparing mpg (at $6.753/gal) to MPGe is about 20 cents per kWh.

So depending on your use case and where you live an EV could be significantly more or less expensive than an ICEV with the same mpg rating.

Note we are definitely comparing apples and oranges here (subcompact crossover with 116 hp versus compact luxury car with 400 hp). Some more apt comparisons would be the Ioniq (145 MPGe), 500e (127 MPGe), i3 (124 MPGe), LEAF (123 MPGe), or MINI Cooper (119 MPGe).

[VanillaGorilla]

Another thing worth mentioning is that 100 mpg in an ICE is not necessarily going to cost the same as 100 MPGe in an EV. Let's take the Yaris Cross Hybrid example from earlier being driven in the UK (it isn't sold in the US). Fuel is currently 1.3213 GBP / litre in the UK (6.753 USD / US gallon). So at the claimed 88.9 mpg (US) that's 7.6 cents (USD) per mile (6.75 cents if it magically hits 100 mpg). My Polestar conveniently has an EPA combined rating of 89 MPGe (though we've averaged 103 MPGe). Our energy costs have averaged 3.1 cents per mile. The break even point when comparing mpg (at $6.753/gal) to MPGe is about 20 cents per kWh.

So depending on your use case and where you live an EV could be significantly more or less expensive than an ICEV with the same mpg rating.

Note we are definitely comparing apples and oranges here (subcompact crossover with 116 hp versus compact luxury car with 400 hp). Some more apt comparisons would be the Ioniq (145 MPGe), 500e (127 MPGe), i3 (124 MPGe), LEAF (123 MPGe), or MINI Cooper (119 MPGe).

It's essentially impossible to do a apples to apples comparison since everybody's details are so disparate.

My EV does about 3mi/kwh and charging at home costs me $0.12/kwh, so 4c/mi. However, charging at a Supercharger (or during the day) is about $0.45/kwh or 15c/mi.

A 50mpg hybrid at $5/gallon is 10c/mi - so the EV is either dramatically cheaper or dramatically more expensive depending on where I charge. I'm largely at the mercy of my utility provider.

IMO once you hit 50mpg the fuel cost becomes relatively insignificant compared to purchase price, depreciation, registration, maintenance and repairs, etc. That's the real challenge with EV adoption - they're not actually cheap to own.

[neo von retorch]

My Polestar conveniently has an EPA combined rating of 89 MPGe (though we've averaged 103 MPGe). Our energy costs have averaged 3.1 cents per mile.

Interesting! Looking at 2023 both dual motor are rated 100 MPGe (w/ or w/o Perf) though I've only barely squeaked past that at 103.7 MPGe on average. Best trip was 146.6 MPGe. At $0.148 / kWh our average cost would be $0.049 / mile.

But yes when I try to compare 476 HP / 350 kW gas vehicles... you're looking at German / Japanese luxury cars that tend to only get 20 mpg with the wind behind them.

[RWD]

Another thing worth mentioning is that 100 mpg in an ICE is not necessarily going to cost the same as 100 MPGe in an EV. Let's take the Yaris Cross Hybrid example from earlier being driven in the UK (it isn't sold in the US). Fuel is currently 1.3213 GBP / litre in the UK (6.753 USD / US gallon). So at the claimed 88.9 mpg (US) that's 7.6 cents (USD) per mile (6.75 cents if it magically hits 100 mpg). My Polestar conveniently has an EPA combined rating of 89 MPGe (though we've averaged 103 MPGe). Our energy costs have averaged 3.1 cents per mile. The break even point when comparing mpg (at $6.753/gal) to MPGe is about 20 cents per kWh.

So depending on your use case and where you live an EV could be significantly more or less expensive than an ICEV with the same mpg rating.

Note we are definitely comparing apples and oranges here (subcompact crossover with 116 hp versus compact luxury car with 400 hp). Some more apt comparisons would be the Ioniq (145 MPGe), 500e (127 MPGe), i3 (124 MPGe), LEAF (123 MPGe), or MINI Cooper (119 MPGe).

It's essentially impossible to do a apples to apples comparison since everybody's details are so disparate.

My EV does about 3mi/kwh and charging at home costs me $0.12/kwh, so 4c/mi. However, charging at a Supercharger (or during the day) is about $0.45/kwh or 15c/mi.

A 50mpg hybrid at $5/gallon is 10c/mi - so the EV is either dramatically cheaper or dramatically more expensive depending on where I charge. I'm largely at the mercy of my utility provider.

IMO once you hit 50mpg the fuel cost becomes relatively insignificant compared to purchase price, depreciation, registration, maintenance and repairs, etc. That's the real challenge with EV adoption - they're not actually cheap to own.

For sure. Energy costs are barely 1% of the overall costs so far for our EV. For our ICE fuel has been 4% of the overall costs (averaging 26 mpg, 91+ octane).

[neo von retorch]

purchase price, depreciation, registration, maintenance and repairs, etc. That's the real challenge with EV adoption - they're not actually cheap to own.

Depreciation is definitely a negative for new EVs (though I wonder how much is apples and oranges there, you can't compare a $65k luxury EV to a $25k budget ICE -- depreciation on $65k luxury ice cars is quite steep, too!) Registration seems to be a mixed bag, differing by states, and the likely future EV registration fee. Don't forget insurance! In theory maintenance should be a big win for EVs. While oil changes and engine air filters are not significant, there are other things that can add up; more frequent brake pad/rotor replacements, alternator/belts, starter, radiator, plugs/ignition coils. I suspect there are some mediocre longitudinal studies on this, but as EVs become more widely adopted, so should the data to determine how those things net out. Tires are probably generally more expensive with EVs if for no other reason than greater curb weights.

In my own experience, so far the insurance has been reasonable / comparable (only slightly more expensive than our Mazda CX-5, despite being twice the price brand new -- but current KBB value is not hugely different, e.g. $24K vs $33K private party.)

Repairs - that would be a serious concern, e.g. accident repairs.

[Tyson]

I don’t understand why some people complain about depreciation on EV’s.  Use that to your advantage and buy a used EV!  It is a benefit not a negative.

[RWD]

I don’t understand why some people complain about depreciation on EV’s.  Use that to your advantage and buy a used EV!  It is a benefit not a negative.

3-5 years ago there wasn't much choice in the used EV market. It's great for people jumping in today but the earlier adopters had to take the depreciation hit for the benefit of used car shoppers today.

[GilesMM]

I don’t understand why some people complain about depreciation on EV’s.  Use that to your advantage and buy a used EV!  It is a benefit not a negative.

Because 1) cars with massive depreciation early on tend to have higher than average depreciation later in life as well and 2) there is almost always a very good reason for the high depreciation, ie. nobody wants the cars because they suck in some fashion (unreliable, impossible to repair, built by a political maniac, etc).

[Tyson]

I don’t understand why some people complain about depreciation on EV’s.  Use that to your advantage and buy a used EV!  It is a benefit not a negative.

Because 1) cars with massive depreciation early on tend to have higher than average depreciation later in life as well and 2) there is almost always a very good reason for the high depreciation, ie. nobody wants the cars because they suck in some fashion (unreliable, impossible to repair, built by a political maniac, etc).

All of those things are not true of EV’s.

[Gremlin]

I'm in Australia and I suspect our depreciation curve is different to yours, but the biggest things I see in driving significant depreciation of electric cars are:

1.  Pricing of new electric vehicles is rapidly falling due to scale; and
2.  The tech, especially around battery performance, is still accelerating

I have a three year old EV.  The make/model can be bought as an EV or an ICE car.

The capability difference between my three year old EV and an equivalent badged new EV is huge.  But the price of the new EV is two-thirds what I paid (and now cheaper than an equivalent ICE).  My depreciation is therefore going to be significant.

In comparison, a three year old ICE car is technologically not that different to an equivalent new ICE car. The three year old ICE was roughly like-for-like with my EV for tech.  The new ICE is technologically well behind the new EV.

[GilesMM]

I'm in Australia and I suspect our depreciation curve is different to yours, but the biggest things I see in driving significant depreciation of electric cars are:

1.  Pricing of new electric vehicles is rapidly falling due to scale; and
2.  The tech, especially around battery performance, is still accelerating

I have a three year old EV.  The make/model can be bought as an EV or an ICE car.

The capability difference between my three year old EV and an equivalent badged new EV is huge.  But the price of the new EV is two-thirds what I paid (and now cheaper than an equivalent ICE).  My depreciation is therefore going to be significant.

In comparison, a three year old ICE car is technologically not that different to an equivalent new ICE car. The three year old ICE was roughly like-for-like with my EV for tech.  The new ICE is technologically well behind the new EV.

Cabin/dash tech aging in all cars is a good point.  Cutting edge tech depreciates hugely in value as it is quickly obsolete.  Cars with LESS tech actually age more gracefully short term and long term.  An analog dashboard still looks great - speedo, tach, oil, temp and gas gauge.  A brand new video screen might be amazing today but in five years it will be a horror.

[neo von retorch]

I don’t understand why some people complain about depreciation on EV’s.  Use that to your advantage and buy a used EV!  It is a benefit not a negative.

Yes! I bought an MSRP $67k car for $29k (which is currently KBB Private Party $33k) 😀

I think there's merit to think of electric cars in general as early adopter vehicles. And there have been some advances in battery technology and cost over the past but it also hasn't been super rapid. Very early on electric vehicles may have had 150 miles range or cost $80K+. Now there are a long list of vehicles with 250+ miles, some in the 300-400 mile range. Level 3 speeds have increased a lot, but as an EV owner, I personally don't find that as meaningful - but I can see why many do, because it's still a chunk of extra time on the rare 300+ long road trip.

Screen UIs are a problem but they aren't specific to EVs. In some ways, heavier software integration has helped with over-the-air patching, but this can be good or bad depending on how well it's executed. It's rare that a screen or CPU is upgraded in a vehicle short of a major generation update, and there haven't been too many of those yet... Design cycles are often ~5-7 years, and most EVs aren't even that old yet.

[Just Joe]

I once exceeded the EPA-rated highway efficency on our Polestar by 59%!
(over an 85 mile stint that dropped 2,800 feet in elevation)

I saw 95 mi/kwh while decending a mountain here soon after charging. I think if I could actually get that kind of mileage I'd only need to charge annually... ;)

[Just Joe]

Cabin/dash tech aging in all cars is a good point.  Cutting edge tech depreciates hugely in value as it is quickly obsolete.  Cars with LESS tech actually age more gracefully short term and long term.  An analog dashboard still looks great - speedo, tach, oil, temp and gas gauge.  A brand new video screen might be amazing today but in five years it will be a horror.

Depends on the owner's expectations. The displays in our '14 Acura look and function exactly as they did when we bought the car at 3 years old. The tech is no better or no worse. I've updated the maps a couple of times.

I expect the same will be true of our EV. I'm mostly happy with the technology it has. I'm sure the new one in a decade will have more tricks and refinement and that's okay. I might still be driving our 2021 EV.

What I look forward to is more refinement in the traffic follow cruise (smoother accel and decel) and lane keeping (smarter, more precise).

I know that the extra refinement is available in more expensive cars right now but I'm not ready to spend the money to get them. That refinement will drift down market eventually. For now our 2021 meets 90% of our expectations where refinement is concerned. I expect we'll always have a DD EV. Not sure I'll replace the MDX with an EV yet b/c we rarely drive it. From a financial standpoint, I think it is better to keep the old car as long as I can keep up with maintenance and repairs cost effectively. So far, not much to report even at ~150K miles.