Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[simonsez]

In some places and circles it seems like there’s an almost reactionary pushback to EVs. 

Absolutely. There are exactly two areas in which first questions often carry negative connotations: EVs and solar. For any other purchase, questions usually boil down to "tell me more about how awesome it is". For an EV, it's "defend your purchase for me".

Sadly this is our experience with my FIL. His first reaction to seeing we had a PV array was to launch into some bizarre diatribe about how rare earth metals were finding sex. When we got our PHEV he said we were freeloading by not paying the gas tax.

Having reverse engineering autocorrect. What did he say??

After I found sex, I'm sure I had some monologues about all types of odd subjects.

[GuitarStv]

I kinda get the queries about solar panels and wind turbines.  They have been heavily oversold as a solution to our energy problem, and they absolutely are not that.

Land Rovers are oversold even more heavily, as a solution to a problem that 99.89% of their buyers don't have. Yet a newly minted owner of one never gets challenged on anything.

Valid point.

Actually, I used to regularly tell people that new cars they had bought seemed a bit silly, but the incredibly negative reaction that always earned me eventually let me to stop.  Should probably start that up again.

[nereo]

In some places and circles it seems like there’s an almost reactionary pushback to EVs. 

Absolutely. There are exactly two areas in which first questions often carry negative connotations: EVs and solar. For any other purchase, questions usually boil down to "tell me more about how awesome it is". For an EV, it's "defend your purchase for me".

Sadly this is our experience with my FIL. His first reaction to seeing we had a PV array was to launch into some bizarre diatribe about how rare earth metals were finding sex. When we got our PHEV he said we were freeloading by not paying the gas tax.

Having reverse engineering autocorrect. What did he say??

Whoops
The comment was that they funded sex slaves for the workers mining rare earth metals.

[pecunia]

I kinda get the queries about solar panels and wind turbines.  They have been heavily oversold as a solution to our energy problem, and they absolutely are not that.

Land Rovers are oversold even more heavily, as a solution to a problem that 99.89% of their buyers don't have. Yet a newly minted owner of one never gets challenged on anything.

Valid point.

Actually, I used to regularly tell people that new cars they had bought seemed a bit silly, but the incredibly negative reaction that always earned me eventually let me to stop.  Should probably start that up again.

Is it really that silly in Canada?  Don't a lot of people use those to hunt and fish in the bush?  There have to be some pretty tough roads to get to these places.  Land Rovers have aluminum bodies and don't rust.  This also seems practical.  However, the newer ones are not known to be too reliable so I think a Jeep would be a better option.

You can get an electric Jeep.

[nereo]

I kinda get the queries about solar panels and wind turbines.  They have been heavily oversold as a solution to our energy problem, and they absolutely are not that.

Land Rovers are oversold even more heavily, as a solution to a problem that 99.89% of their buyers don't have. Yet a newly minted owner of one never gets challenged on anything.

Valid point.

Actually, I used to regularly tell people that new cars they had bought seemed a bit silly, but the incredibly negative reaction that always earned me eventually let me to stop.  Should probably start that up again.

Is it really that silly in Canada?  Don't a lot of people use those to hunt and fish in the bush?  There have to be some pretty tough roads to get to these places.  Land Rovers have aluminum bodies and don't rust.  This also seems practical.  However, the newer ones are not known to be too reliable so I think a Jeep would be a better option.

You can get an electric Jeep.

Canada has an absolute ton of wilderness, second only perhaps to Russia.  But the overwhelming majority of Canadians live in and around a dozen or so metropolitan areas. As a country the population is about as urban-centric as the United States (slightly over 80% live in urban/suburban areas).

Sure, there are those who own and use Land-Rovers to get to some truly remote locations up logging roads.  But as with the US, the vast majority of owners rarely take them off a paved road.

[gooki]

The one I got most often as a first was "how long does it take to charge from empty to full at home" ? To which I generally have to explain why it's irrelevant and the wrong question to ask. Folks got it when I explained it at least.

Best eye rolling question I ever got was:

Q. How can you drive your EV if there's a power cut?

A. The same way I use a torch when my house is without power.

[JLee]

The one I got most often as a first was "how long does it take to charge from empty to full at home" ? To which I generally have to explain why it's irrelevant and the wrong question to ask. Folks got it when I explained it at least.

Best eye rolling question I ever got was:

Q. How can you drive your EV if there's a power cut?

A. The same way I use a torch when my house is without power.

"How can you pump gas when the gas station has no power?"

:D

[nereo]

The one I got most often as a first was "how long does it take to charge from empty to full at home" ? To which I generally have to explain why it's irrelevant and the wrong question to ask. Folks got it when I explained it at least.

Best eye rolling question I ever got was:

Q. How can you drive your EV if there's a power cut?

A. The same way I use a torch when my house is without power.

"How can you pump gas when the gas station has no power?"

:D

I've actually had this problem, and it's a big concern during natural disaster events where the power grid gets knocked out. 

[LennStar]

In some places and circles it seems like there’s an almost reactionary pushback to EVs. 

Absolutely. There are exactly two areas in which first questions often carry negative connotations: EVs and solar. For any other purchase, questions usually boil down to "tell me more about how awesome it is". For an EV, it's "defend your purchase for me".

Sadly this is our experience with my FIL. His first reaction to seeing we had a PV array was to launch into some bizarre diatribe about how rare earth metals were finding sex. When we got our PHEV he said we were freeloading by not paying the gas tax.

Having reverse engineering autocorrect. What did he say??

Probably something about the feeling of investors of stocks like Livent, Albermarle, Standard Lithium and the like - all the "mines" that are already outsold without figuring in the future demand of 2025. (Just look at this chart https://www.finanzen.net/aktien/standard_lithium-aktie - 7x increase in the last year)

btw. BYD is probably going to be one of the biggest EV car producers in just 3 years. How many Americans (that don't do stock picking) have ever heard of this Chinese company?

Best eye rolling question I ever got was:

Q. How can you drive your EV if there's a power cut?

A. The same way I use a torch when my house is without power.

The answer: I just plug it into my solar panel powered wallbox at home. Can't you do that with your car in your garage refinery?

Canada has an absolute ton of wilderness, second only perhaps to Russia.  But the overwhelming majority of Canadians live in and around a dozen or so metropolitan areas. As a country the population is about as urban-centric as the United States (slightly over 80% live in urban/suburban areas).

There is a funny (and correct, for a certain squinted-eye sort of correctness) video that "proofs" that more Canadians living south than US citizens.
That's because 80% of Canadians live in a small southern spot of the country, and that 80% line happens to be a tick south of the northern border of California, and if you include (whole) California, more US people live north of that line.

[GuitarStv]

I kinda get the queries about solar panels and wind turbines.  They have been heavily oversold as a solution to our energy problem, and they absolutely are not that.

Land Rovers are oversold even more heavily, as a solution to a problem that 99.89% of their buyers don't have. Yet a newly minted owner of one never gets challenged on anything.

Valid point.

Actually, I used to regularly tell people that new cars they had bought seemed a bit silly, but the incredibly negative reaction that always earned me eventually let me to stop.  Should probably start that up again.

Is it really that silly in Canada?  Don't a lot of people use those to hunt and fish in the bush?  There have to be some pretty tough roads to get to these places.  Land Rovers have aluminum bodies and don't rust.  This also seems practical.  However, the newer ones are not known to be too reliable so I think a Jeep would be a better option.

You can get an electric Jeep.

Ha!

I lived for many years in a remote town in Northern Ontario and did plenty of hunting.  For hunting, large vehicles aren't too useful.  A truck is nice because if you do bag a moose you'll need to drive it home somehow . . . but you can't really drive anywhere in the bush - too many trees.  If you do get a moose you're building a sling and dragging the bastard out of the woods.  Hunting is usually done on foot.

But that said, the overwhelming majority of Canadians (81%) live in urban areas.  And most of them don't hunt.  Hunting tends to be more common among First Nations people and those who live in rural areas.

[pecunia]

No deer season in Canada?  No rifle season, no bow season, no black powder?  Different country & different culture, I guess.

[GuitarStv]

No deer season in Canada?  No rifle season, no bow season, no black powder?  Different country & different culture, I guess.

There are certainly some people who hunt deer and there is a deer season (and moose season).  Deer meat is far inferior to moose in my experience though, so it was never something I was too interested in.

I've never heard of anyone doing black powder hunting (I assume that you mean muzzle-loading?) but there's probably someone out there who does.  One of my friends did some bow hunting, although that was for wild turkey and partridge.  I imagine it would be difficult and dangerous to hunt a moose with one.

But none of those really require a vehicle beyond driving to a trail location.

[Chris22]

Funny, I got my (electric) Jeep in part to support hunting. Where we go, Wisconsin, most people own land and spend time developing that land for hunting. We make roads (dirt, barely roads, just paths) and spend a lot of time carving game trails, planting food plots, and building blinds. A 4WD truck or SUV is fairly necessary for this activity. I mean you could do without, but it would take you 10x longer to haul all supplies in by hand, haul your deer out by hand, etc. Just wouldn’t make any sense.  Plus half the time you’re doing it with 6” of snow on the ground.

[GuitarStv]

I don't think that I'd enjoy the African Lion Safari style drive-through hunting.  The challenge of being outdoors for extended periods, hiking and portaging, and actually having to work hard on the hunt is as important to me as the act of killing an animal.  Each to his own though.

[JLee]

I don't think that I'd enjoy the African Lion Safari style drive-through hunting.  The challenge of being outdoors for extended periods, hiking and portaging, and actually having to work hard on the hunt is as important to me as the act of killing an animal.  Each to his own though.

Feeling a little passive-aggressive today, are we?

[Chris22]

I don't think that I'd enjoy the African Lion Safari style drive-through hunting.  The challenge of being outdoors for extended periods, hiking and portaging, and actually having to work hard on the hunt is as important to me as the act of killing an animal.  Each to his own though.

You can look down on whatever you wish. There’s no “drive through hunting safari” here, other than I happened to drive my Jeep close to the stand. We have literally thousands of man hours into the land, building and farming and clearing and prepping and yadda yadda. But we all know that in order to keep your “all cars bad, all trucks/SUVs worse” ideology pure you need to take some pretty gravity-defying leaps of logic, so feel free.


FWIW, I hit 500 miles on my Jeep last night, and topped off the tank with 6gal of gas in preparation for a longish trip to the cabin today. That was the first 6gal of gas I put into the Jeep, so that’s 83.3MPGe I believe. I’ve used the Jeep on gas on two occasions, once when I forgot to charge it overnight and had to make a 35 mile round trip, and once when I went into the city and had to drive home after the battery depleted. I also have used it here and there to basically make sure it works, warm up the engine, that sort of thing.

[Chris22]

To clarify the above, I didn’t use the right calc for MPGe; I didn’t take into account the energy use for the electricity. I honestly don’t care about that aspect of it, I’m more interested in how little gas I can use day to day.

[pecunia]

It sounds like all the gas stations in Canada don't sell deer corn and apples for the deer sitting outside in big piles of sacks.

[DarkandStormy]

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=WGFUPUS2&f=W

Gasoline sales back to pre-pandemic levels.

[BDWW]

I've been toying with the idea of trying to import a Chang Li.  Unfortunately, shipping is still crazy.  There's a company in Utah that is importing them, but their prices have risen pretty drastically too.

But I'm guessing me driving that around town probably won't do much for countering current perceptions of electric vehicles. :)

[AlanStache]

I've been toying with the idea of trying to import a Chang Li.  Unfortunately, shipping is still crazy.  There's a company in Utah that is importing them, but their prices have risen pretty drastically too.

But I'm guessing me driving that around town probably won't do much for countering current perceptions of electric vehicles. :)

There are plenty of electric skateboard alternatives to the Chang Li made domestically :-)

[BDWW]

I've been toying with the idea of trying to import a Chang Li.  Unfortunately, shipping is still crazy.  There's a company in Utah that is importing them, but their prices have risen pretty drastically too.

But I'm guessing me driving that around town probably won't do much for countering current perceptions of electric vehicles. :)

There are plenty of electric skateboard alternatives to the Chang Li made domestically :-)

I already use a Radwagon4 for taking the kids to daycare/school, and it should work until the end of September, weather depending.  Looking for cheap simple transport for the winter months.

[AlanStache]

I've been toying with the idea of trying to import a Chang Li.  Unfortunately, shipping is still crazy.  There's a company in Utah that is importing them, but their prices have risen pretty drastically too.

But I'm guessing me driving that around town probably won't do much for countering current perceptions of electric vehicles. :)

There are plenty of electric skateboard alternatives to the Chang Li made domestically :-)

I already use a Radwagon4 for taking the kids to daycare/school, and it should work until the end of September, weather depending.  Looking for cheap simple transport for the winter months.

I have been on the fence with ebikes for several years, mostly I dont trust myself to get up earlier so I have the extra 15min to bike to work vs drive.  Not a good reason I know.

[BDWW]

Well, since the foam is here:
As someone who's bike (non-e) commuted for years. Most people underestimate the crossover point of when a car is quicker.  In fact in very heavy traffic, a bike is often quicker period. For a urban/suburban commute, for me the crossover is about 2 miles.  Shorter than that, and there's no difference or the bike is quicker.    It often feels* longer, but if you watch the clock it's not.
To stand on my soapbox a bit more:  I try to ask people if they biked when they were kids. Then I ask if them if it was fun. I find a lot of people just sort of gave up on biking at some point** and kind of forgot how simple and fun it is. Truth be told, I've not won over that many converts, but I think of made a number of people at least think about it, and even bike a bit more for fun even if they never actually do much beyond a weekend bike ride.

*Probably because you're actually taking life in a bit more.
**I tend to think it's when we get our driver's license here in the US. Enjoying the new found freedom of driving so much we tend to forget that it's not necessary all the time.  Heck I remember driving my first car half a block away to a friends house just because I could.

[nereo]

Well, since the foam is here:
As someone who's bike (non-e) commuted for years. Most people underestimate the crossover point of when a car is quicker.  In fact in very heavy traffic, a bike is often quicker period. For a urban/suburban commute, for me the crossover is about 2 miles.  Shorter than that, and there's no difference or the bike is quicker.    It often feels* longer, but if you watch the clock it's not.
To stand on my soapbox a bit more:  I try to ask people if they biked when they were kids. Then I ask if them if it was fun. I find a lot of people just sort of gave up on biking at some point** and kind of forgot how simple and fun it is. Truth be told, I've not won over that many converts, but I think of made a number of people at least think about it, and even bike a bit more for fun even if they never actually do much beyond a weekend bike ride.

*Probably because you're actually taking life in a bit more.
**I tend to think it's when we get our driver's license here in the US. Enjoying the new found freedom of driving so much we tend to forget that it's not necessary all the time.  Heck I remember driving my first car half a block away to a friends house just because I could.

People often ask why I commute via bike when I own a car. An effective response has been: “I almost never get into my car and think “oh boy, I get to spend 20 minutes driving! I never feel physically better after driving. But most days when I’m on my bike I have at least a few moments when I just think “Whheeeee!!!!”  I always feel better after a bike ride. And I hit my minimum daily exercise.”

[gooki]

Well, since the foam is here:
As someone who's bike (non-e) commuted for years. Most people underestimate the crossover point of when a car is quicker.  In fact in very heavy traffic, a bike is often quicker period. For a urban/suburban commute, for me the crossover is about 2 miles.  Shorter than that, and there's no difference or the bike is quicker.   

With my quick ebike (45kmh) in my city with moderate traffic, a bike is quicker on commutes up to 15km.

[AlanStache]

I have biked (non-ebike) to work any number of times.  It is nice to ride in and I do ride recreationally, but between getting up earlier, the logistics of a change of clothes and it being either f-ing hot or raining I have never made the habit stick.  Right now at 6pm it is 93 outside with heat index of 108.  yeah none of those a great reasons and maybe just jumping in to an ebike would get me ridding more often but change requires effort...

[BDWW]

Currently 91F and I'm about to hop on the bike to go get the kids.  The e-bike definitely helps. I'd be much more apt to cave and use the car if I didn't know I could crank up the assist if need be, even though I usually don't.  I usually use assist level 2 of 5 because it helps, but doesn't completely erase the effort like the upper levels do.   

[Chris22]

Well, since the foam is here:
As someone who's bike (non-e) commuted for years. Most people underestimate the crossover point of when a car is quicker.  In fact in very heavy traffic, a bike is often quicker period. For a urban/suburban commute, for me the crossover is about 2 miles.  Shorter than that, and there's no difference or the bike is quicker.    It often feels* longer, but if you watch the clock it's not.
To stand on my soapbox a bit more:  I try to ask people if they biked when they were kids. Then I ask if them if it was fun. I find a lot of people just sort of gave up on biking at some point** and kind of forgot how simple and fun it is. Truth be told, I've not won over that many converts, but I think of made a number of people at least think about it, and even bike a bit more for fun even if they never actually do much beyond a weekend bike ride.

*Probably because you're actually taking life in a bit more.
**I tend to think it's when we get our driver's license here in the US. Enjoying the new found freedom of driving so much we tend to forget that it's not necessary all the time.  Heck I remember driving my first car half a block away to a friends house just because I could.

People often ask why I commute via bike when I own a car. An effective response has been: “I almost never get into my car and think “oh boy, I get to spend 20 minutes driving! I never feel physically better after driving. But most days when I’m on my bike I have at least a few moments when I just think “Whheeeee!!!!”  I always feel better after a bike ride. And I hit my minimum daily exercise.”

That’s completely fair.

But that sense of euphoria that you get from biking is what I get from driving. I absolutely love driving, it is what makes me happiest out of any activity I do outside of the bedroom.  But I also have two cars that are designed to make driving fun, a sports car/roadster and a Jeep Wrangler.

[BDWW]

Well, since the foam is here:
As someone who's bike (non-e) commuted for years. Most people underestimate the crossover point of when a car is quicker.  In fact in very heavy traffic, a bike is often quicker period. For a urban/suburban commute, for me the crossover is about 2 miles.  Shorter than that, and there's no difference or the bike is quicker.    It often feels* longer, but if you watch the clock it's not.
To stand on my soapbox a bit more:  I try to ask people if they biked when they were kids. Then I ask if them if it was fun. I find a lot of people just sort of gave up on biking at some point** and kind of forgot how simple and fun it is. Truth be told, I've not won over that many converts, but I think of made a number of people at least think about it, and even bike a bit more for fun even if they never actually do much beyond a weekend bike ride.

*Probably because you're actually taking life in a bit more.
**I tend to think it's when we get our driver's license here in the US. Enjoying the new found freedom of driving so much we tend to forget that it's not necessary all the time.  Heck I remember driving my first car half a block away to a friends house just because I could.

People often ask why I commute via bike when I own a car. An effective response has been: “I almost never get into my car and think “oh boy, I get to spend 20 minutes driving! I never feel physically better after driving. But most days when I’m on my bike I have at least a few moments when I just think “Whheeeee!!!!”  I always feel better after a bike ride. And I hit my minimum daily exercise.”

That’s completely fair.

But that sense of euphoria that you get from biking is what I get from driving. I absolutely love driving, it is what makes me happiest out of any activity I do outside of the bedroom.  But I also have two cars that are designed to make driving fun, a sports car/roadster and a Jeep Wrangler.

Cars can be fun, for me commuting really isn't. I autocrossed for several years, attended several driving schools, and have owned several fast/fun cars. I'd drive everyday but for all the other drivers...


So has anyone hired a customs broker and actually had something shipped in from Alibaba?  I still haven't given up on the idea of getting a Chang Li to run around in.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEigaJ6mInM

[GuitarStv]

Well, since the foam is here:
As someone who's bike (non-e) commuted for years. Most people underestimate the crossover point of when a car is quicker.  In fact in very heavy traffic, a bike is often quicker period. For a urban/suburban commute, for me the crossover is about 2 miles.  Shorter than that, and there's no difference or the bike is quicker.    It often feels* longer, but if you watch the clock it's not.
To stand on my soapbox a bit more:  I try to ask people if they biked when they were kids. Then I ask if them if it was fun. I find a lot of people just sort of gave up on biking at some point** and kind of forgot how simple and fun it is. Truth be told, I've not won over that many converts, but I think of made a number of people at least think about it, and even bike a bit more for fun even if they never actually do much beyond a weekend bike ride.

*Probably because you're actually taking life in a bit more.
**I tend to think it's when we get our driver's license here in the US. Enjoying the new found freedom of driving so much we tend to forget that it's not necessary all the time.  Heck I remember driving my first car half a block away to a friends house just because I could.

People often ask why I commute via bike when I own a car. An effective response has been: “I almost never get into my car and think “oh boy, I get to spend 20 minutes driving! I never feel physically better after driving. But most days when I’m on my bike I have at least a few moments when I just think “Whheeeee!!!!”  I always feel better after a bike ride. And I hit my minimum daily exercise.”

That’s completely fair.

But that sense of euphoria that you get from biking is what I get from driving. I absolutely love driving, it is what makes me happiest out of any activity I do outside of the bedroom.  But I also have two cars that are designed to make driving fun, a sports car/roadster and a Jeep Wrangler.

Cars can be fun, for me commuting really isn't. I autocrossed for several years, attended several driving schools, and have owned several fast/fun cars. I'd drive everyday but for all the other drivers...


So has anyone hired a customs broker and actually had something shipped in from Alibaba?  I still haven't given up on the idea of getting a Chang Li to run around in.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEigaJ6mInM

Do some digging on AliExpress and you can probably find what you're looking for:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001826411091.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.5cc05b74H8Qw1O&algo_pvid=3f2ca9d6-5a8b-4fd9-8a8d-b757b40496ac&algo_exp_id=3f2ca9d6-5a8b-4fd9-8a8d-b757b40496ac-28&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000017757727625%22%7D

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001058544911.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.5cc05b74H8Qw1O&algo_pvid=3f2ca9d6-5a8b-4fd9-8a8d-b757b40496ac&algo_exp_id=3f2ca9d6-5a8b-4fd9-8a8d-b757b40496ac-25&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2210000013903246859%22%7D

[LennStar]

I've been toying with the idea of trying to import a Chang Li.  Unfortunately, shipping is still crazy.  There's a company in Utah that is importing them, but their prices have risen pretty drastically too.

But I'm guessing me driving that around town probably won't do much for countering current perceptions of electric vehicles. :)

wow those are cute!
I want to see a F-350 parked in on all sides by those things!

[Just Joe]

I have been on the fence with ebikes for several years, mostly I dont trust myself to get up earlier so I have the extra 15min to bike to work vs drive.  Not a good reason I know.

If you can borrow one for a few days, do it. We have two and love them. Our high schooler regularly rides one to school ~6 very hilly miles. Loves to avoid the school bus and the neanderthals that ride it. Doesn't have a license yet to drive a car. Reports a mild exercise euphoria after the commute. Arrives home before the bus or before we could get them home if we left work to drive them home - which I don't like to do b/c of the fuel consumed. Costs about a nickel to recharge from empty. 

I NEED to ride mine to work more often (~8 very hilly miles). I've really slacked off this summer for all the reasons Alanstache related but I've promised myself as the weather begins to cool I'll ride more often. I deal with the cold far better than the heat. Always have. And wear a helmet. I recently crashed at ~10 mph b/c traffic and b/c our rural roads here often have no shoulder. Didn't break the bike but the helmet saved my bacon. Scrapes and cuts. Helmet saved my face and head from the same.

DW and I carpool so the car is still going to the same part of town even if I'm not in it. It is so enticingly easy to catch a ride with DW. 

[American GenX]

I have biked (non-ebike) to work any number of times.  It is nice to ride in and I do ride recreationally, but between getting up earlier, the logistics of a change of clothes and it being either f-ing hot or raining I have never made the habit stick.  Right now at 6pm it is 93 outside with heat index of 108.  yeah none of those a great reasons and maybe just jumping in to an ebike would get me ridding more often but change requires effort...

I have ridden bikes thousands of miles over the years for exercise and continue to do so, recently adding an e-bike to my fleet that I use in a manner to still get great exercise, but never once have I used a bike for any type of commuting or errand, nor do I intend to do so.  I avoid traffic and do 95% of my riding in rural areas.

[GodlessCommie]

If you can borrow one for a few days, do it.

Many bikeshare programs now offer ebikes. A very good and cheap way to try, if one is ever in an area that has them.

[boarder42]

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/08/senate-votes-to-restrict-ev-tax-credits-despite-climate-crisis/?amp=1

Well this may slow adoption have to see what shakes out of the budget reconciliation

[nereo]

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/08/senate-votes-to-restrict-ev-tax-credits-despite-climate-crisis/?amp=1

Well this may slow adoption have to see what shakes out of the budget reconciliation

It’s a restriction on expanding, capping new credits to sub $40k EVs and under $100k earners. From what I understand the current crop of rebates and credits would go unchanged.

[neo von retorch]

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/08/senate-votes-to-restrict-ev-tax-credits-despite-climate-crisis/?amp=1

Well this may slow adoption have to see what shakes out of the budget reconciliation

It’s a restriction on expanding, capping new credits to sub $40k EVs and under $100k earners. From what I understand the current crop of rebates and credits would go unchanged.

That doesn't seem to be the intention of it.

Currently, tax payers are eligible for a tax credit of up to $7,500 based on the size of the vehicle's battery for the first 200,000 plug-in vehicles from a given automaker. But Republican Senator Deb Fischer of Nebraska introduced a non-binding amendment to the $3.5 trillion budget bill that would means-test this tax credit, restricting it to tax payers with incomes below $100,000.

Perhaps more significantly, Sen. Fischer's amendment also restricts the tax credit to EVs that cost less than $40,000.

I think this is generally bad. The people with higher incomes are much more likely to be considering $40k+ electric cars (which, honestly, before credits, is a lot of them!) This would change (if made into law) a lot of $45k - $7500 = $37.5k EV vs $40-45k ICE comparison to favor ICE on initial purchase cost vs trim level/features.

[boarder42]

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/08/senate-votes-to-restrict-ev-tax-credits-despite-climate-crisis/?amp=1

Well this may slow adoption have to see what shakes out of the budget reconciliation

It’s a restriction on expanding, capping new credits to sub $40k EVs and under $100k earners. From what I understand the current crop of rebates and credits would go unchanged.

That doesn't seem to be the intention of it.

Currently, tax payers are eligible for a tax credit of up to $7,500 based on the size of the vehicle's battery for the first 200,000 plug-in vehicles from a given automaker. But Republican Senator Deb Fischer of Nebraska introduced a non-binding amendment to the $3.5 trillion budget bill that would means-test this tax credit, restricting it to tax payers with incomes below $100,000.

Perhaps more significantly, Sen. Fischer's amendment also restricts the tax credit to EVs that cost less than $40,000.

I think this is generally bad. The people with higher incomes are much more likely to be considering $40k+ electric cars (which, honestly, before credits, is a lot of them!) This would change (if made into law) a lot of $45k - $7500 = $37.5k EV vs $40-45k ICE comparison to favor ICE on initial purchase cost vs trim level/features.

I think the tipping point where EVs are cheaper is within the next year but I've only ever purchased used cars so the credit would entice me personally to adopt the car sooner. Otherwise I'm going to wait for them to be cheaper on the second hand market. And I'm a EE nerd who really really wants one.

[Chris22]

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/08/senate-votes-to-restrict-ev-tax-credits-despite-climate-crisis/?amp=1

Well this may slow adoption have to see what shakes out of the budget reconciliation

It’s a restriction on expanding, capping new credits to sub $40k EVs and under $100k earners. From what I understand the current crop of rebates and credits would go unchanged.

That doesn't seem to be the intention of it.

Currently, tax payers are eligible for a tax credit of up to $7,500 based on the size of the vehicle's battery for the first 200,000 plug-in vehicles from a given automaker. But Republican Senator Deb Fischer of Nebraska introduced a non-binding amendment to the $3.5 trillion budget bill that would means-test this tax credit, restricting it to tax payers with incomes below $100,000.

Perhaps more significantly, Sen. Fischer's amendment also restricts the tax credit to EVs that cost less than $40,000.

I think this is generally bad. The people with higher incomes are much more likely to be considering $40k+ electric cars (which, honestly, before credits, is a lot of them!) This would change (if made into law) a lot of $45k - $7500 = $37.5k EV vs $40-45k ICE comparison to favor ICE on initial purchase cost vs trim level/features.

I will tell you my PHEV Jeep was much cheaper than an ICE version because of the $7500 tax credit. If it wasn’t for the credit it would have been several thousand more expensive, and I don’t know that I could’ve justified the extra expense, especially since the PHEV forced me into a higher trim level than I would’ve otherwise purchased.

[tj]

Do you all live in single family houses?

I've always live in apartments or condos, and I have no idea where I would be able to reliably plug vs. the simplicity of spending a few minutes at a gas station.

I think when they can solve that problem, when super fast charging stations are off the interstates and on several street corners, maybe they won't even need the tax credits.

[BicycleB]

Do you all live in single family houses?

I've always live in apartments or condos, and I have no idea where I would be able to reliably plug vs. the simplicity of spending a few minutes at a gas station.

I think when they can solve that problem, when super fast charging stations are off the interstates and on several street corners, maybe they won't even need the tax credits.

Earlier this week, I began working to get local developers to plan and install charging in new apartment developments. Hopefully other people will do the same in future. Long process though.

[tj]

Do you all live in single family houses?

I've always live in apartments or condos, and I have no idea where I would be able to reliably plug vs. the simplicity of spending a few minutes at a gas station.

I think when they can solve that problem, when super fast charging stations are off the interstates and on several street corners, maybe they won't even need the tax credits.

Earlier this week, I began working to get local developers to plan and install charging in new apartment developments. Hopefully other people will do the same in future. Long process though.

It certainly makes sense, and is probably somewhat cost efficient, in new builds, but I haven't heard a plan to retrofit all the existing complexes across the country, or even in the state of California where they have pretty lofty electric vehicle goals in the not-far future.

[BudgetSlasher]

Do you all live in single family houses?

I've always live in apartments or condos, and I have no idea where I would be able to reliably plug vs. the simplicity of spending a few minutes at a gas station.

I think when they can solve that problem, when super fast charging stations are off the interstates and on several street corners, maybe they won't even need the tax credits.

Earlier this week, I began working to get local developers to plan and install charging in new apartment developments. Hopefully other people will do the same in future. Long process though.

I believe drafts of or model building codes are calling for some form of EV parking or conduit in place in anticipation of future EV charging.

The problem I've seen with relying on dc fast chargers rather than at home/work 120 or 240 charging (at the cost of electricity) is that the fuel costs can meet or exceed gasoline. That really eats away at the economic argument for EVs.v

[BicycleB]

I believe drafts of or model building codes are calling for some form of EV parking or conduit in place in anticipation of future EV charging.

The problem I've seen with relying on dc fast chargers rather than at home/work 120 or 240 charging (at the cost of electricity) is that the fuel costs can meet or exceed gasoline. That really eats away at the economic argument for EVs.v

Model codes that include conduit sound very good to me! With just a spots available at first, each complex could naturally add charging as demand rose.

Re fast chargers, wouldn't cheap trickle charging be enough, just like at a house?

[Chris22]

I believe drafts of or model building codes are calling for some form of EV parking or conduit in place in anticipation of future EV charging.

The problem I've seen with relying on dc fast chargers rather than at home/work 120 or 240 charging (at the cost of electricity) is that the fuel costs can meet or exceed gasoline. That really eats away at the economic argument for EVs.v

Model codes that include conduit sound very good to me! With just a spots available at first, each complex could naturally add charging as demand rose.

Re fast chargers, wouldn't cheap trickle charging be enough, just like at a house?

IMO, the incremental cost to do 220 over 110 is so small to do in the construction phase they’d be silly not to.

[dandarc]

I believe drafts of or model building codes are calling for some form of EV parking or conduit in place in anticipation of future EV charging.

The problem I've seen with relying on dc fast chargers rather than at home/work 120 or 240 charging (at the cost of electricity) is that the fuel costs can meet or exceed gasoline. That really eats away at the economic argument for EVs.v

Model codes that include conduit sound very good to me! With just a spots available at first, each complex could naturally add charging as demand rose.

Re fast chargers, wouldn't cheap trickle charging be enough, just like at a house?

IMO, the incremental cost to do 220 over 110 is so small to do in the construction phase they’d be silly not to.

Level 1 has worked perfectly well for us (2014 LEAF - never have more than an overnight's worth of level 1 charging to do). As a bonus, the circuit best for charging the car also allows me to reach every corner of the yard with one extension cord on the corded-electric mower that we found in the shed when we bought this place. Which reminds me - lawn is about 3 weeks overdue for mowing.

*ETA - I agree with you - if building new, having level 2 charging readily available is the way to go. Maybe run both 110 and 220?

[BudgetSlasher]

I believe drafts of or model building codes are calling for some form of EV parking or conduit in place in anticipation of future EV charging.

The problem I've seen with relying on dc fast chargers rather than at home/work 120 or 240 charging (at the cost of electricity) is that the fuel costs can meet or exceed gasoline. That really eats away at the economic argument for EVs.v

Model codes that include conduit sound very good to me! With just a spots available at first, each complex could naturally add charging as demand rose.

Re fast chargers, wouldn't cheap trickle charging be enough, just like at a house?

IMO, the incremental cost to do 220 over 110 is so small to do in the construction phase they’d be silly not to.

Level 1 has worked perfectly well for us (2014 LEAF - never have more than an overnight's worth of level 1 charging to do). As a bonus, the circuit best for charging the car also allows me to reach every corner of the yard with one extension cord on the corded-electric mower that we found in the shed when we bought this place. Which reminds me - lawn is about 3 weeks overdue for mowing.

*ETA - I agree with you - if building new, having level 2 charging readily available is the way to go. Maybe run both 110 and 220?

There is no need to put in any bigger charger at home, what you have is sufficient to recover your range.

We tried level 1 with my wife's Kona EV, eventually I installed a level 2. If she did only her regular work commute, she could make it through the week starting eat day with a little less range and recover the rest on the weekend. That didn't allow enough of a cushion for a longer trip on the weekend, shopping, or having to commute to a different site for work. If she could use one of the 120v outlets at work she wouldn't need a 240 at home, but those are always occupied by plugin hybrids that get there earlier.

[nereo]

Do you all live in single family houses?

I've always live in apartments or condos, and I have no idea where I would be able to reliably plug vs. the simplicity of spending a few minutes at a gas station.

I think when they can solve that problem, when super fast charging stations are off the interstates and on several street corners, maybe they won't even need the tax credits.

I charge mostly at work, where I successfully lobbied to install a 208V/20A “dumb charger”.

But yes, currently apartment buildings in the US are woefully equipped (in general) to handle EVs.  But it’s certainly not a hard problem to solve, as it’s been done elsewhere extensively.

[pecunia]

My car is in the shop this weekend due to a seal leak from the transmission to the axles.  I guess i wouldn't have had this problem with an electric car.